1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brussel from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: Don't you just love it? Tiffany's. Isn't it wonderful? You 3 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: see what I mean? Nothing bad could have happened to 4 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: you in a place like this. Isn't that I give 5 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: a hoot about jeweler except diamonds, of course, Tiffany the 6 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: most storied jeweler in the country. The name alone evokes 7 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: images of Audrey Hepburn in a black evening gown looking 8 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: into the window of the famous Fifth Avenue store in breakfast, 9 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: to Tiffany's and flawless diamond engagement rings in the iconic 10 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: Robin Egg Blue box. Different images are evoked by the 11 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: name Costco Warehouses bulk sales of household staples and deals 12 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: for members only. So happens when Costco starts selling diamond 13 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 1: engagement rings using the word Tiffany Well. Tiffany sues for 14 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: trademark infringement, and an eight year legal battle follows until 15 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: this week, when Tiffany and Costco reached a settlement. My 16 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: guest is intellectual property litigator Terence Ross, a partner at 17 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: Captain Eugen Rosenman. Terry tell us about the legal dispute. 18 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: So Costco was selling engagement rings that featured what is 19 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: often referred to as a Tiffany setting, and by that 20 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: they mean the diamond is raised above the ring band 21 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: in sort of an attractive setting. It was something that 22 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: was created by the founder of the Tiffany Shane gentleman 23 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: by the name of Charles Tiffany, and so it has 24 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: been known for over a hundred years as the Tiffany setting, 25 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: and Costco advertised their engagement rings as featuring a Tiffany setting, 26 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: and Tiffany the jewelry store of ject to that in 27 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: the Bottle lawsuit back in two thousand thirteen, and Costco 28 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: claimed that the word Tiffany had become a generic term. 29 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: This actually went to a jury who came back with 30 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: a huge verdict. Tell us about the trial judges ruling. 31 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: So the judge in the district Court granted summary judgment 32 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: of liability against the Costco and in favor of Tiffany, 33 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: holding that the use of the Tiffany trademark constituted both 34 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: trademark in infringement and counterfeiting. Counterfeiting is fairly serious finding 35 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: under the Landom Act, but did not make any finding 36 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: with respect to the damages for those violations of the 37 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: Landom Act. So a jury trial was held specifically to 38 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: determine damages. So at the start, the jury is told 39 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: that Costco has already been found libel for trademark infringement 40 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: and counterfeiting, an now it's up to you, the jury, 41 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: to determine how they should be punished with respect of 42 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: monetary damages. And that jury awarded twenty one million dollars 43 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: to Tiffany or this counterfeiting and trademark infringement, it's appealed 44 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,959 Speaker 1: to the second Circuit, and the second Circuit reverses. Why 45 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: did the second Circuit reverse? So? The Second Circuit felt 46 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: that the judge had overstepped her function by granting summary judgment. 47 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 1: The Second Circuit felt that there were genuine issues of 48 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: material fact that had, as a matter of law, to 49 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: be presented to the jury to decide and could not 50 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: be decided by the judge. And fundamentally, what this means 51 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: is the Second Circuit felt that a reasonable juror might 52 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: have thought that the use of the term Tiffany referred 53 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: to the setting and not to the jewelry store. In 54 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: other words, that the ring did not originate from the 55 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: Tiffany Jewelry store, but rather referred to the type of 56 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: setting for the engagement ring, and it was up to 57 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: jury therefore make the decision, and the judge overstepped her 58 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: bounds by making the decision for the jury. So Tiffany 59 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: has always defended its brand zealous lee. Did it surprise 60 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: you that they decided to settle with Costco? It did, 61 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: but the stakes were much higher on the retrial coming 62 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: back from the appellate court, and that new trial in 63 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: front of a jury was set fruit was coming October. 64 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: At that point, it is possible that a jury could 65 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: have returned a verdict in favor of Costco, which in 66 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: essence meant that the term Tiffany had become descriptive. And 67 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: at that point, if that finding were upheld on appeal, 68 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: Tiffany's very valuable trademark would have overnight become, if not valueless, 69 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: close to valueless, in that any retailer using that particular 70 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: type of setting for an engagement ring could then advertise 71 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: using the Tiffany trademark. So it was very high risk 72 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: situation for Tiffany at that point, with very little reward, 73 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 1: and so it made perfect sense to choose to settle, 74 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: especially if Costco had agreed to stop using the term Tiffany, 75 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: but doesn't it still leave open then the question of 76 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: whether or not a jeweler can use the term Tiffany 77 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: setting it absolutely does leave that decision open. But that's 78 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: one of the things that Tiffany probably wanted to get 79 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: out of the settlement. Now, the funny thing about trademark 80 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: settlement June is that you can call them confidential, but 81 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: by looking at the practices of the defendant sometime after 82 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 1: the settlement, you can pretty much figure out what settlement was. 83 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: So now if you go into a Costco store and 84 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: you no longer see the word Tiffany being used in 85 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: connection with their engagement rings, you can pretty much be 86 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: assured that the settlement agreement required them to stop using 87 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: word Tiffany. And if that's what the settlement was, then 88 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: I think it was a good deal for Tiffany. And 89 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: the reason I say that is Tiffany continues to have 90 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: leverage over anybody wanting to use the Tiffany name, Whereas 91 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: if they've gone to trial and they've lost, they would 92 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: have lost all leverage against these other companies in the marketplace. 93 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: As long as there's this possibility that the Tiffany mark 94 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: cannot be used in any use would be counterfeiting or 95 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: trademark infringement. Then that gives you a pretty big stick 96 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: to wield, as the lawyers trying to enforce the Tiffany trademark. 97 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: Tiffany switched law firms on the matter a month ago. 98 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: Could that have made a difference. It certainly is interesting timing. 99 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: Sometimes by changing law firms like that, you get a 100 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: different perspective on where you stand. It is from time 101 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: to time possible for a law firm that has been 102 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: fighting it out day to day in the trenches to 103 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: develop blinders so that they've got just mono vision and 104 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: they can see no path forward except through litigation. Whereas 105 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: you bring in a new firm looking at the situation afresh, 106 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: and they might come up with a different solution that 107 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: gets the client where they want to go. You see 108 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: this quite frequently in the trademark areas. Trademark is one 109 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: of these funny areas of law where both clients and 110 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: lawyers can become irrational because they're personally attached to the trademark. 111 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: And here it is not just any trademark, It is 112 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: the name of the founder of the company, Charles Tiffany, 113 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: and so you often see irrational decisions going on. This 114 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: lawsuit has been going on since two thousand thirteen. That's 115 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: eight years. That's phenomenal for a trademark lawsuit and tells 116 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: you a lot about how personally the parties took the litigation, 117 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: and that probably spilled over to the lawyers and bringing 118 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: him new lawyers to look at things fresh probably helped 119 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: Tiffany a lot. There have been so many brand names 120 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: that were trademarked that went on to become generic terms 121 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: because of their popularity, asked for an escalator, taser, just 122 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: to name a few. What can Tiffany do to stop 123 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: that from happening to its trademark? I think in this 124 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: situation it's a very challenging legal problem for Tiffany. The 125 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: need to continually police the mark, which is the phrase 126 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: we use in trademark law, is ongoing. It's continuing. You 127 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: do not have to sue every single person who uses 128 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: the word Tiffany, but you do have to show a 129 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: regular pattern of chasing after people who are infringing the mark. 130 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: And this is what Xerox has done so well for 131 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: decades and decades now. And although we as late people 132 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: may sometimes think of Xerox as having become genericized in 133 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: the law, it really has not because of the enforcement 134 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: actions Xerox took Tiffany's. In the same mind here, it's 135 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: going to have to constantly police this mark in order 136 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: to preserve it. Whether or not they have to engage 137 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: in this sort of multimillion dollar legal fee litigation lasting 138 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: eight years is probably overkill. But this one sort of 139 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: got away from them. I assume they thought at the 140 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: outset Costco would back down and it could be settled 141 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: relatively quickly, but it did not. Then Costco did not, 142 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 1: and you can sort of see why. I mean, Costco 143 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: is trying to sell engagement rings. If the guy comes 144 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 1: home from Costco and shows his fiance this lovely engagement 145 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: ring that's branded a Tiffany setting, that's one thing. If 146 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: he comes home in a Costco both, I mean, could 147 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: you imagine I'd love to see the face of the 148 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: bride when she told that her diamond engagement ring comes 149 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: from Costco. That little extra branding from Tiffany really helps. 150 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: And so there's gonna be a constant temptation in the 151 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: marketplace for people selling diamond engagement rings to try to 152 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: use the term Tiffany and then point to the setting 153 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 1: of the diamond as allowing them to do so. So 154 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 1: Tiffany scored beyond a continuous pressure to defend this mark. 155 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: We don't know what will happen in the end, but 156 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: it scored to be a costly exercise for Tiffany. I 157 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 1: have to say, in researching this, I was surprised at 158 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: some of the names that I thought were generic that 159 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: were actually brand names and trademark to start out with, 160 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: like Kleenex, Taser, and even TV dinner. It's an interesting 161 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 1: part of branding in general is that you are the 162 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: first to market with a product and the trade name 163 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: you assigned to the product is so appropriate that you 164 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: actually put it at risk of becoming generic. Sized. Aspirin 165 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: is the classic example of this. It was the only 166 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: product like that at the time, and people simply started 167 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: referring to headache medicines as aspirant. Same with tissue paper. 168 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: They were relatively quick to the marketplace with this concept 169 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: perfect trade name, and people started using as we tend 170 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: to do in a geneer sized way. Tiffany is a 171 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: little bit different. It is a subset of the consumer 172 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: world that buys engagement rings, and I think it's a 173 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: little bit harder to make that an allergy to clean 174 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: X or aspiring xerox. But that said, from having done 175 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: a lot of jewelry cases over the years, you do 176 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: hear the people who are knowledgeable about this area always 177 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: referring to that setting. Setting fascinating is always terry. Thanks 178 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: so much. That's Terence Ross of Captain uten Rosenman. Carry 179 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: Dunn spent decades at the very tomp of the New 180 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: York legal profession, making millions of dollars defending Wall Street 181 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 1: banks and global corporations. The sixty three year old was 182 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,719 Speaker 1: a senior partner at Davis Polkin Wardwell, one of New 183 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: York's most prestigious and profitable law firms. But the sixty 184 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: three year old decided to leave his elite law firm 185 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: to return to the Manhattan District Attorney's office, where he 186 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: had his first job after law school, and as Manhattan 187 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: District Attorney Cy Vance's general counsel, carry Dunn may have 188 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: found the biggest case of his career investigating former President 189 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: Donald Trump and his company. Joining me is Greg Farrell 190 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: bleu Burke, Legal reporter Greg described the kind of work 191 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: he did at Davis Polk Carry done. He spent three 192 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: years as a baby prosecutor, an assistant district attorney under 193 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: the legendary Robert Morgan Thau, from which is where he 194 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: met another baby prosecutor at that time, Cyrus Vans Jr. 195 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:24,079 Speaker 1: And then left in to take a position at Davis Polk. 196 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: He interviewed with Robert Fisk Jr. Who's a legendary figure 197 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 1: in his own right. Bob Fiske was the U S 198 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: Attorney for the Southern District during the Clinton administration and 199 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: then became He's not as well known as the other 200 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 1: white Water Water prosecutor, but he was the first special 201 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: counsel or independent council appointed to investigate President Bill Clinton's 202 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,439 Speaker 1: role or whatever his connection was with the dubious real 203 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: estate transactions that became to be known as Whitewater and Um. 204 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: Eventually he was replaced by Ken Starr, and we all 205 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: know how that movie ended. Uh So, anyway, Bob Fiske. 206 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: One of the interesting things about Carry Dunn is when 207 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: he said this in a testimonial to Fisk or when 208 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: he was given an award a few years ago, that 209 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: just while he was interviewing with Fisk. He thought, if 210 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: they offered me a job, I want to take it. 211 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: I want to work for this guy and do whatever 212 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: he wants me to do. This is back in and 213 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: it became almost a thirty year career at David's Polk. 214 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: Was he a litigator there is from like Davis Polk, 215 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: I take a give a lot of corporate clients. Yes, 216 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: very much so. And right it's one of the largest 217 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: you know, corporate's big law the definition of big law, 218 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: a huge law firm, A lot of corporate work for 219 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 1: Wall Street banks as well as just large global corporations, 220 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 1: and done worked his way up. What I found interesting 221 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: about him is he didn't become necessarily a star litigator, 222 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: the guy you want in the courtroom for the big case. 223 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: He did that, but a search of his pacer court 224 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: files and hopefully the listeners understand what that is just 225 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: a TikTok of the cases he was involved with and 226 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: appeared in court. Was fairly heavy in the ninet nineties, 227 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: but started petering out in the early two thousand's when 228 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: he became like a managing partner and started devoting more 229 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: of his time to managing the law firm. It was 230 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: also during that period in the late nineties where he 231 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: devoted a lot of his time to efforts that were 232 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: not billable hours. Bob Fisk, you know, was appointed to 233 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: lead a commission in the nineteen nineties to clean up 234 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: the mess, or at least two come up with a 235 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: solution to the problem of courts being basically overrun with 236 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: drug crimes and like, as you remember, the nineteen nineties 237 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: was a terrible time in the country, but particularly in 238 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: New York City for drug crimes. And so when you 239 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: talk about drug crimes, you have a wide variety extending 240 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: from notorious bad actors and traffickers who kill people and 241 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: are involved with cartels and need to be tried in 242 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: the federal court system or in the state court system 243 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: and put away for a long time, all the way 244 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: down to you know, sad cases of people who were 245 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: addicted and then you know, break into a car and 246 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: steal the radio so they can get their hundred dollar 247 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: fixed that night. And you know, the system in the 248 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: lumped them all together, and the devised under Bob Fift's 249 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: direction carry done was his basically his general counsel for 250 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: that wrote a report suggesting the creation of a whole 251 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,359 Speaker 1: new tier of courts UH for these low level basically 252 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: sad addicted case offenders, so that they could, instead of 253 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: being thrown in jail, could be given if you know, 254 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: they passed, you know, muster, basically the opportunity to come clean, 255 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: beat their habit, and return to you know society as 256 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: you know, productive you know people and UH and not 257 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: have to go to jail for ten years because they 258 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: did something really stupid when they were high. And this 259 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: became very successful at relieving the burden on the New 260 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: York State drug system of all huge amount of these 261 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: cases that were clogging the system. And also just in 262 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: terms of doing a good thing, basically separating people who 263 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: did not need to be put away from many years 264 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: and allow them a chance to redeem themselves and clean 265 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: up their act. And it became a model from any 266 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: other states to pursue. So carry Dunne was instrumental in 267 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: basically putting this paper together. The judge who asked Fist 268 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: to to do this with so impressed by done that 269 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: she named him to a couple of subsequent commissions, one 270 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: of which was aimed at providing legal services to so 271 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: called indigent people. Now we all know that if you 272 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: are accused of crime and you're poor and you have 273 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: no access to a public defender will be appointed to 274 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: represent you. That's criminal. There's like so many cases, civil 275 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: cases where somebody's been wronged or accused of something and 276 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: they can't afford like a real lawyer, you know, so 277 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: they represent themselves and of course lose because they don't 278 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: even know what they're doing in court. And carry Done 279 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: headed up a commission that sort of came up with 280 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: a solution of providing free legal services to people who 281 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: didn't couldn't afford so the least they could get some 282 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: professional representation in court in a civil case. So that's 283 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: yet another example of what he did to sort of 284 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: like improve the court system in New York. Those are 285 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: not buillable hours. That's stuff that doesn't care. And at 286 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: one point he was president of the Manhattan Bar Association. 287 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: So I spoke to retired judge Ry Caymans, who had 288 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: served with carry Down on some of these uh and 289 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: and helped out significantly on some of these commissions. And 290 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: because I'm not a lawyer, and I thought, well, why 291 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: is it a big deal? Every biographical sketch of carry 292 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: Dunn says he you know, president of New York City Bar, 293 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 1: and he said, no, that's significant because of how much 294 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: time and effort he put into improving the system, uh 295 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: to you know, basically good causes that for him, as 296 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: a senior corporate lawyer to take this on and throw 297 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: himself at that and continue some of the work he 298 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: was doing is significant. Judge Cammons told me that he 299 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: you could look at Carry Dunn as a guy who 300 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: had three careers, first as a prosecutor, second as a 301 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: corporate litigator, big money you know, representative for you know, 302 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 1: Wall Street banks and global corporations, but finally as head 303 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: of the New York City Bar, and as someone who 304 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: basically for the industry of lawyers in New York really 305 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: contributed a tremendous amount of time and energy. Dunn has 306 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: been recognized, you know, and given awards for all the 307 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: amount of time and eff he was put into pro 308 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 1: bono work. Um, but that's something that someone like me 309 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: who writes about this stuff for Bloomberg News, it was 310 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: not on my radar screen. I write about, you know, 311 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: the companies and the banks that get charged with something 312 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: and who defends them, etcetera. So this is a significant 313 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: part of his career, and now he's come full circle. 314 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 1: He's back, you know, working with the prosecution team in 315 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: what could eventually be like the most significant case of 316 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: his life. What I found interesting is that he said 317 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: that his proudest moment was not all his Wall Street work, 318 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: but his pro bono defense of a Bronx residence. Yes, 319 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: that's right. So there was a murder in Brooklyn in 320 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: the summer of two thousand one, and a guy named 321 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 1: Lonnie Jones was identified by an eye witnesses, you know, 322 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: someone who shot like a gang leader or something. And 323 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: it went to trial and this you know, key government 324 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: witness testified against him, bang bang bang guilty, you know, 325 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 1: and then sent away. A group of Davis Polk lawyers 326 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: and every large law firm has people dedicated to pro 327 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 1: bono work, and a couple of them, including someone who's 328 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: now a senior official. Justice Department, concluded that, you know, 329 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: this key witness was lying and that there were a 330 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: couple of other witnesses who had not been contacted who 331 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: could refute that testimony. And so they basically won the 332 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 1: right for retrial to get the original conviction thrown out. 333 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: And at the retrial, uh, they brought in carry Donne, 334 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: you know, again, a senior trial lawyer at Davis Polk 335 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: to do the arguments. They didn't do it themselves. And 336 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 1: you know, he did it effectively and won an acquittal. 337 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: And he said he told the Village Voice this. There 338 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: was a great story in the Village Voice from you know, 339 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: fifteen years ago on this, and he said that, no 340 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 1: matter what I do, this will probably be the most 341 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: important thing I ever did as a lawyer. It was 342 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: very a very touching remark for a guy who has yes, 343 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: made millions of dollars whose corporate work. So his demeanor 344 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:43,919 Speaker 1: was described as mild mannered, but Judge Caman said that 345 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: he has tremendous charisma. I guess the mild manner description 346 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: and I talked about this with my editor. So much 347 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: is more like um. In response to the Trump organizations, lawyers, 348 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: I think quite rightfully are trying to make the case 349 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: that this is a political you know, elected Democrats in 350 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: New York state of going after the president. So they're 351 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: trying to cast doubt on the veracity or the legitimacy 352 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: of the charges and instead of engaging, and this is 353 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: to the Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vance Junior's credit. Instead 354 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 1: of engaging them directly or having a press conference outside 355 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: the courthouse to fight back at them, he's taken a 356 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: guy who's really perceived a political you know, made some 357 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: modest contributions to Democrats over many years, but not many 358 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 1: He's not a big political player, and a guy who's 359 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: not likely to get hot and bothered and angry and 360 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: fight back fire with fire like a cable TV talk 361 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: show host or something. So I think that's what the 362 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: mild management and unflappable. And you heard that in the 363 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: Supreme Court argument that he did. He was unflappable, but 364 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: very convincing. His tone was moderate. So and actually the 365 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: Supreme Court thing is is hugely significant. Um as you know, 366 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: there are not one, but two visits to the Supreme 367 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 1: Court because the Trump organization, again exercising his rights, you know, 368 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: fought the idea of allowing a grand jury to subpoena 369 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: the now former president's tax records. And think about this. 370 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: You've got Donald Trump's lawyer, j Secalo, and and also 371 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 1: you know Noel Francisco of these as a listener General's 372 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: Office of the U. S Government arguing that you know, 373 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: you what you could end up doing. If you allow 374 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: the Manhattan District Attorney to do something like this, you 375 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 1: could basically empower all twenty county prosecutors across the country 376 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: to go, you know, reek mayhem on any president, including 377 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: Joe Biden now or something. So, uh, they introduced this 378 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: worst case scenario, and the Supreme Court justices, you know, 379 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: take that seriously, and so you could have you know, 380 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: Vance himself standing up there. You need someone from the office. 381 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: Sometimes people who don't have a lot of experience, parties 382 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: that don't have a lot of experience at the Supreme 383 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 1: Court engage a professional, you know, lawyer like Walter Dellinger 384 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: when we quote in the article, who has lots of 385 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: experience arguing before the Supreme Court. But Vance, to his credit, 386 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: made the right to acision. It had to be someone 387 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: from his office making this argument, and it could have 388 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: been a line prosecutor. But a line prosecutor is always 389 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: already committed to a case. When you're a prosecutor and 390 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: you've gone this far, there's a certain amount of investment, 391 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: uh in this. Someone like done and all the work 392 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: he's done for legal reform in New York State is 393 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: not someone who could be described either as a partisan 394 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: elected official or a prosecutor who's so dug into a 395 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: case that he can't see the bigger picture. He was 396 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: actually the perfect guy to put in front of the 397 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. And even though he never argued before the 398 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: Supreme Court before, he was very well briefed by the team, 399 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: you know, and was able to engage with the justices. 400 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: And here's another thing that when you're appearing before the 401 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: Supreme Court, particularly for the first time, uh, it's not 402 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,959 Speaker 1: uncommon for lawyer's you know, to start overacting because this 403 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: is like the Super Bowl and they're they're on the 404 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: field and you've got the nine justices right there. Although 405 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: I think it was a zoom call, but you know 406 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: what I mean, there's still that like high pressure of like, 407 00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: oh my word, I'm right here in front of the 408 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. So that can affect not in a good 409 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: way your presentation, because you tend to be more valuable 410 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: or overly demonstrative. And if you listen to carry Dun's 411 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: presentation was, you know, it was as though these were 412 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: just nine local New York State judges whom we had known. 413 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: He was very direct, listened to them, respond to them, 414 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: to not start like bloviating about you know this, he 415 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 1: was impressive and the opposite of Seculo. So Seco does 416 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 1: what he does, and he does it well. This was 417 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 1: a very different approach. Yes, so he's in this law 418 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: firm where he's basically can do whatever he wants, right, 419 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: he's a senior partner. So why does he decide to 420 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: is he taking a leave? Is that what it is from? No? 421 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: I think he decided first of all, you know, like 422 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: in investment banks as well, at a certain point in 423 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: law firms, you know that you don't keep holding these 424 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: full time, highly paid jobs forever. At a certain point, 425 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 1: you know, you become the senior part or whatever. But 426 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: Bob Fisk himself, who's aged ninety, is still attached to 427 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: Davis Polk. But of course he's not in there working 428 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: all the time, but he's know, so there's a way 429 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: of sort of you know, stepping back from the firm. 430 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: And he had known Si Vance Junior for a long time. 431 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: And Vance was beginning his third term as district attorney. 432 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: And it's it's normal every four years for the senior 433 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: staff of an elected official like that to turn over. 434 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: And you know, after his first term, the first General 435 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: Council step down, and after the second term, the second 436 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: General Council step down, and he tapped carry down. And 437 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: I think I don't know this, but it certainly appears 438 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: as though he was ready for a new challenge. He'd 439 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: done everything he could do, uh the law firm, he'd 440 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 1: already given back a lot through the New York City 441 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: Bar Association. And here's you know, somebody's known for a 442 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: long time who asked him to be general Council. Literally, 443 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: did he know who's about to step into like this cauldron, 444 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,479 Speaker 1: not just this case about the Trump organization, but Harvey 445 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: Weinstein two point oh yeah. He started in January seventeen, 446 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: but he agreed and the press release went out like 447 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: November two and other words, before the election when most 448 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: people thought Hillary Hillary Clinton was going to going to win. 449 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: He accepted the job. So, um, this investigation didn't really 450 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: begin until, you know, the whole business with Michael Cohen 451 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 1: and the payment to the porn stars and the federal 452 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: case which revealed that the Trump organization, at least in 453 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 1: the instance of Michael Cohen and Storm McDaniels, had kept 454 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: inaccurate books and records, presumably for the purpose of disguising 455 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 1: you know what, this money was being paid to Michael 456 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 1: Cohen when a factor was because you know, Michael Cohen 457 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,479 Speaker 1: had paid money out of his pocket to this adult 458 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: film actors. So Cyrus Vance is leaving at the end 459 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: of the year. Alvin Bragg, the Democratic candidate for Manhattan 460 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: d A, is on track to take his place, assuming 461 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: he wins the election. Will done stay or go? He's 462 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: been with Vance now for this will be his fourth year. 463 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: And yes, since Vance is leaving at the end of 464 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 1: the year, the question is whether or not he'll stay 465 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: because he's Vance is guy. He's not like a career 466 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,160 Speaker 1: professional in the office, so it'll be interesting to see thing. 467 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 1: Because he holds the title of general counsel, Alvin Bragg 468 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: I presumed one his own general council. However, Bragg has 469 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: stated publicly, because he's been asked about this, that he 470 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 1: has no plans to change the team. You know, he doesn't, 471 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: and that's a wise thing to say, Like you wouldn't 472 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: broadcast that now anyway, even if you felt that way, 473 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: you wouldn't want to shake something up, but just let 474 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: them go. I do think, assuming or if Bragg does 475 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: in fact win the election in November then I would 476 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: imagine and later that month there will be some conversations 477 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: between Bragg and some senior I guess, for lack of 478 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 1: a better term, political appointees, a vance personal appointees like 479 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: Carry Dunne and like Mark Palmertz, who was also someone 480 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,479 Speaker 1: who comes from the world of big corporate law and 481 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: who has you know, signed on temporary basis to be 482 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 1: a prosecutor in this case against the Trump organization. So 483 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: that will be interesting to see, you know, at the 484 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,360 Speaker 1: end of the year whether or not you know, these 485 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: two people who are important, you know, to the prosecution 486 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,880 Speaker 1: stay on. Having said that, in the case of Kerry Done, 487 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: you've got a team of line prosecutors who have been 488 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: working on this for a couple of years. You know, 489 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: they didn't argue before the Supreme Court, but they're fully 490 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: immersed in the case. And when let's assume that Alan 491 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 1: Alan Weisselberg, who has been charged, goes to trial, they're 492 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 1: the ones who are going to be doing the prosecution, 493 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: not Carried. Has there been any movement as far as 494 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 1: we talked before about the Wisselberg indictment, has there been 495 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 1: any movement or any move to indict anyone else, as 496 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: we expected. If there is, it's not visible. So I 497 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: covered the UH investigation of Special Counsel Robert Mueller for 498 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: a couple of years from seen and we talked about 499 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 1: this a lot, and particularly early on, but this continued 500 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: were accusations, mostly from Republicans, that you know, the Moller 501 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 1: team was leaking, and of course they weren't. There were 502 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: no leaks at all. From that, to the great frustration 503 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: of me and everyone else who covered this, there was 504 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: nothing to get out of that black box. There have 505 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: been similar accusations about the Manhattan District Attorney's office UM 506 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: and to be fair there it's much more likely for 507 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 1: local prosecutors, elected officials to leak than it is for 508 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: federal prosecutors who are appointed and not you know, don't 509 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: need to cry favor of the public, and you know, 510 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: there's been accusations of that. At the same time, I 511 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: think there's been a heightened awareness. I think Vance's office 512 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 1: knows that they have no margin for error, so they've 513 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: been very careful about this. They do not want leaks 514 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: to go out. They do not want to give like 515 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: fuel to the fire. You know that the Trump organizations 516 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: lawyers will will will exploit if it becomes clear that 517 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 1: there are leaking stuff. So that's a long winded preamble 518 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 1: to answer your question, which is that, UM, you know, 519 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: I'm sure they're continuing to work on this, uh and 520 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: in several directions. One is that um Weislberg, and this 521 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: has been the strategy. They would like to get him 522 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: to think this through and decide that he'd rather help 523 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: them and minimize his uh you know, potential time. The 524 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: indictment against him and the Trump organization UM is well 525 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: beyond just a you know, an accusation of some you know, uh, 526 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: you know, poor decision in terms of taxes by Weislberg. 527 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: It in some ways as a blueprint for like the 528 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: prosecutors showing their hand like many people did this at 529 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: the Trump organization. This was standard practice. It wasn't as 530 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: though Alan Wisenberg, the CFO, as alleged, is like a 531 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: bad apple or a rogue or going off the reservation 532 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: to feather his own nest. It's more a suggestion that 533 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: this There are many executives at the Trump organization UM 534 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: did this. So it's quite likely that you know, other 535 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: senior executives not named Trump, but other senior executives are 536 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: you know, who maybe got a car or a reduced 537 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: rate apartment uh and did not include that as a 538 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: material benefit on their taxes. Um, you know, are concerned 539 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: that they might get charged similarly. So I think it's 540 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: fair to assume that, you know, the wheels were in 541 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: motion if there are any other senior executives there now 542 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,959 Speaker 1: the senior executive everyone cares about the former president Donald J. Trump. 543 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: That's you know again, it's you know, you read the indictment. 544 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to believe that he probably didn't 545 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: you know, get some benefit like that himself. However, he 546 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: was not the CFO, so it could be that you know, uh, 547 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: these benefits were spread around and if Weislberg was the 548 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: you know, the genius behind it, uh, and Trump can 549 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: say like, hey, you know he he told me it 550 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 1: was okay, that's say, you know, that's that's a defense. 551 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: So that's why the pressure is being brought by the 552 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: d a's office on Weiselberg is because you know, he's 553 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: the key guy. So you know, I think I think 554 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: Donald Trump has or would have if if you know, 555 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: things stand as they are now, some defense against the 556 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: charge that he should have you know, maybe you could 557 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: get him just payback the taxes that he owes, but 558 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: he would be able to blame or at least say, 559 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: you know, my CFO, you know who's the guy who's 560 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: been doing this for decades that it was okay so 561 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: or something like that. Yeah. And on a personal note, 562 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: he's known for his workout regime and laying in a 563 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: rock band. He goes to the gym regularly. And this 564 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: is another sort of informal legacy, you know, something that 565 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: you learned from his mentor, Bob Fisk. Fisk, who's nine 566 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: years old, way before was fashionable in the nineteen seventies 567 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: and eighties, stayed in shape, He ran marathons, you know, 568 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: he played tennis, uh and did all sorts of stuff. 569 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: And I think it's uh and it used to be 570 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: a hockey player. Um. And but sometimes bring his ice 571 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: skates and go play hockey, you know. So I think, um, 572 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: that's one of the things Done realized is in order 573 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: to be able to do everything the way Fisk could, 574 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: you have to be in shape and you have to 575 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: you know, take care of your body. So there's that. Um. 576 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: So he goes to the gym and uh and works 577 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: out pretty regularly. The band is funny. You can look 578 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: it up online if you're interested in, you know, corporate 579 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: law rock. There are fundraising I didn't know this world existed, 580 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: but there are fundraisers where you know, the New York 581 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: City Bar Association for example. If somebody will bring together 582 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: you know a bunch of rock bands consisting of not 583 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 1: just the partners like Harry Dunne, but you know the 584 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: guy from the accounting department or you know someone, and 585 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: all for good cause. But also all these people, even 586 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: the ones without hair, could let their hair down, live 587 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: out that dream that got sidetracked from when they went 588 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: to law school. Thanks so much, Greg. That's Bloomberg Legal 589 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: reporter Greg Farrell, and that's it for the edition of 590 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Last Show. I'm June Grosso and you're listening 591 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:18,719 Speaker 1: to Bloomberg