WEBVTT - From the Vault: Oh Goat, You Devil - Part 2 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:09.000 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:09.720 is Robert. 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:12.479 Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And Rob and I 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:14.400 are out this week, so we are bringing you an 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.560 episode from the vault. This is part two in our 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:21.560 series on the Goat and the devilish implications of the Goat. 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:25.520 It was originally published on October twentieth, twenty twenty two. 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:39.760 Enjoy Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. Hey, 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:42.879 welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert. 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.520 Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:47.680 two of our series on the Goat. 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:52.400 That's right, it's Halloween season and for some reason, all 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:55.840 of our Halloween episodes so far have been livestock based. 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:58.880 And this is part two of our look at the goat, 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:03.760 a creature that in reality is, you know, pretty gentle. 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:07.160 Nothing too weird about the goat for the most part. 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:10.960 Nothing the faari is, certainly, but within the larger traditions 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:15.000 of mythology and folklore, various other connotations take over and 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.959 kind of spin out of control until you have ultimately 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:24.640 demonic goats, half goat, half human hybrids that may not 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:28.080 have the best intentions at heart, and then also even 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:33.600 a few cinematic incarnations, horror movie incarnations of the goat. 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.040 We mentioned the Witch in the first episode, of course, 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:39.040 and Joe and I were trying to off Mike. We're 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:43.200 trying to think of other spooky goats in films, or 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:47.400 its even just spooky goat people in films, and there 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:49.920 aren't maybe a ton of them, Like there are more 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:53.080 way more killer cat movies and certainly killer dog movies 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:54.600 than there are killer goat movies. 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:58.240 Well, it depends on if you include goat headed demons, 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:02.400 then that massively expands the range. And as we were discussing, 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:06.640 there is one Italian horror movie that has a really 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.320 glorious goat costume that you only see for a couple 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:10.800 of seconds. But it's in the Church. 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:13.640 Yeah, that's a nineteen eighty nine film. It's been a 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.399 while since I've seen it, but it was produced by 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.600 Dario Argento and a few others, and it's quite an 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:23.560 interesting film, kind of a lower budget accult film that 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:26.720 was perhaps partially inspired by the Name of the Rose, 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:30.280 Like what if the Name of the Rose had one 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:31.760 of the actors from the Name of the Rose but 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:34.800 then also a demonic goat man roman. 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:36.520 About Oh okay, Yeah, and. 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:38.600 Of course The Devil Rides Out, which we discussed on 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:40.760 Weird House Cinema earlier in the year that has a 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:42.880 great goat man in it as well, but they're. 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.480 Not a wonderful, big old goat boy at a party. 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:49.440 Yeah, probably one of the better ones committed to the screen, 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:52.160 but you don't see them a lot. I think I've 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:56.680 mentioned before I think the first cinematic vision of like 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:03.600 goat obsessed Cultists was the movie adaptation of Dragnet. This, 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.560 I think a nineteen eighty seven film. Dan Ackroyd heavily 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:10.400 involved in that. I think Christopher Plumber is in it 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:12.440 as well and plays one of the cultests, and so 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:15.280 there's you know, there's scenes of some sort of a 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.840 Hollywood black mass thing going on, and people wearing goat 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:22.160 leggings and goat heads and so forth. 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:24.280 You're saying, that's the first one you remember seeing. 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:26.880 That's the first one I remember seeing as a kid, 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:29.120 because you know, that was I think essentially supposed to 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.079 be a family movie. You know, I remember there being 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:34.040 plenty of elements in it there were maybe not so 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:38.680 family friendly, but you know it was the eighties. Oh 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:42.640 and Seth just poked in to mention. Of course, Pan's Labyrinth, 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:47.120 Gimel Do Toro's film, which does have a fabulous Pan 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:52.360 incarnation as well as well as some other just fabulous creatures. 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:54.480 Definitely not a family movie that one either. It's got 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:58.440 some brutal violence and some very you know, real world themes, 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:02.480 but also so fantastic mythological world. 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:05.840 Yeah, everybody remembers the monster with the eyes in its 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:08.720 hands in that movie, even though Pans in the title. Yeah, 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.520 it's not called Eyes in Palms Labyrinth. 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:15.640 For many of you. Though, when you think cinematic goat men, 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:20.600 imagine for an entire generation of people. There's one particular 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:22.400 portrayal you're going to think of, and that's going to 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:26.320 be James McAvoy's two thousand and five portrayal of mister 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.160 Tumnus in The Lion the Witch in the Wardrobe. 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:31.080 I never saw that adaptation. 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:33.880 Oh well, I have a feeling and go get around 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:38.720 to it. It's a good one. It rewatched, it recently 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:41.560 holds up pretty well. It's got some great creatures in it, 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.760 and of course, in addition to James macavoy, we have 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:50.320 a tremendous Tilda Swinton performance as the White Witch. So 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:53.640 those two elements are alone are enough reason to check 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:54.000 it out. 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:56.440 Does the movie have Turkish delight in it? 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.279 Oh, of course you can't not have Turkish delight in it. 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:03.080 So I was thinking about mister Tumnus because we were 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:05.479 talking about satyrs and fawns in the last episode, and 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:08.359 I realized that this is an odd, pretty obvious modern 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:12.960 fictional presentation of particularly a fawn in this situation. He's 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.360 described as a fawn, of course, appears in C. S. 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.040 Lewis's Narnia book The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:23.360 and various adaptations of that work. And despite all of 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.800 the various connotations of the satyr and the fawn that 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:30.240 Lewis was obviously quite aware of, mister Tumnus is a 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:33.760 rather compassionate figure and not at all a nasty old 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:36.480 he goat about. The worst thing you can say about 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:39.559 him is that he's technically working for the White Witch. 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:43.520 He's technically prepared to poison one of the children and 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:46.599 then deliver her to the White Witch, but then he 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:49.160 quickly betrays the White Witch to help the children of Earth. 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:53.719 So while he's not really portrayed for the most part 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:57.080 as a sexual being. Still, James McAvoy's two thousand and 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:01.479 five portrayal has perhaps a little bit of unintended allure 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:03.880 to it. I think it's one of those situations where, 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:06.920 even if you try and strip those elements away from 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:10.880 the visual satyr or fawn, if you then recreate the fawn, 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:16.039 especially using an actual person, an actual actor, you cannot 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:20.280 help but evoke some of its symbolic essence. Lewis, by 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:23.400 the way, also wrote a poem titled The Satyr, which 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:26.840 also seems to dwell on the creature's more sublime qualities. 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:30.480 This is one that he wrote much earlier as an 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:34.360 adolescent atheist, is pointed out by Joe R. Christopher in 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.960 a twenty sixteen paper title C. S. Lewis's Two Satyrs, 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:42.160 referring to this poem and then to mister Tumnus, I thought, 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:44.159 I thought I might read just a little of this poem. 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:47.360 You can find the whole thing at allpoetry dot com. 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.640 But it begins like this, when the flowery hands of 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:56.479 spring forth their woodland riches, fling through the meadows, through 0:06:56.520 --> 0:07:00.880 the valleys, goes the satyr, caroling from the mountain and 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:04.760 the moor forest green and ocean shore, all the fairy 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:09.440 kin he rallies making music ever more, See the shaggy 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:13.320 pelf doth grow on his twisted shanks below, and his 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:17.320 dreadful feet are cloven, though his brow be white as snow. 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:22.680 And it goes on from there's a fun little little poem. Now. 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:26.600 Christopher's Ride Up is I think a pretty interesting analysis, 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:28.880 as long as you're in for sort of at times 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:31.760 a psycho sexual interpretation of a Narnia book, which I 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:35.520 realized it is not everyone's cup of tea, but still 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:37.800 I think it's quite interesting. And he points out that 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:43.680 while mister Tumnus is largely desatorized defaanntinized, if you will, 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:47.560 there are still hints of the basic nature he is 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:52.480 overcoming and being civilized, and so forth. Mentions of times 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:54.320 when quote and this is from the line the Witch 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.520 and the wardrobe quote, the woods were green and old 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:01.240 salinas on his fat donkey would to visit them, and 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:04.680 sometimes Bacchus himself, and then the streams would run with 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.800 wine instead of water, and the whole forest would give 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:14.600 itself up to jollification for weeks on end jollification. Yeah, so, 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:19.679 Christopher ultimately writes in this paper quote. If one compares 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:22.520 Lewis's two satyrs, one finds that both are about the 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:25.920 split in the male human. Partly he is led by reason, 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:29.560 by wisdom and high thoughts, by family, moors and philia, 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:33.600 and partially he is driven by sexual or bestial or 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:38.320 devilish and or traitorous impulses. The satyr attracts fairy maidens 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:41.920 by his unhappiness. Perhaps he is unhappy because women flee 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:44.719 from him, but more likely, has suggested before, he is 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:48.599 unhappy because he has self divided himself about his relationship 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:52.199 to women. The fawn mister Tumnus shows that a man 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:55.680 can control his impulses, his animal or devilish side, and 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:56.880 treat a woman well. 0:08:57.080 --> 0:08:59.120 Huh, Well, I don't know quite what to make that, 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:00.920 because I haven't read this since I was a kid. 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:04.640 Yeah, I listened to the audiobook version of it in 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:06.880 recent years, so it's a little fresher on my mind 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:08.800 as well. But I'd love to hear it from everyone 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:10.280 out there, because I know we have a lot of 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:11.520 There are a lot of people out there who either 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:14.720 grew up on these books or these movies and maybe 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:16.719 thought one way about them at one point in their 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:20.280 life and thought another way much later. But mister Tumnus 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.679 is still there, standing essentially naked in the snow. I 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:26.560 think he's wearing a scarf in the movie version, but 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:30.480 otherwise looks very naked except for the goat for. 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:36.480 Okay, Well, in the previous episode, we were talking about 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:41.800 the question of why the cultural association, especially stemming from 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:47.480 Christian continental Europe, between goats and devils or between goats 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:51.800 and wickedness. Where does this association come from, especially given 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.400 that it's not universal. Of course, it's not like every 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:58.560 culture thinks goats are evil? So what are the origin points? 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:01.520 And I think we can POSSI find some points of 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:05.760 inspiration for this mental link link between goats and demons. 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:09.080 In the Biblical tradition itself, going all the way back 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:12.960 to the Torah. One of the most prominent appearances of 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:16.800 goats in the Hebrew Bible is the prescription for the 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:20.760 Day of Atonement or Yam Kapor. Yam Kapur is the 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:23.400 holiest day of the year in Judaism. It is a 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:27.800 day dedicated to the ritual cleansing of sin and the 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:31.599 ritual is described in the Book of Leviticus, chapter sixteen 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:35.679 as a prelude. The Lord is talking to Moses, and 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:39.600 the Lord tells Moses that erin the High Priest, he 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:41.960 can't just come into the presence of the Ark of 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:45.160 the Covenant at any time, or God may appear in 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:47.880 a cloud upon the cover of the Ark and kill him. 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:52.040 And this is coming after God has already struck out 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:55.200 from the Ark and killed people who did the wrong 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:59.000 thing with it, who maybe brought strange fire before it. Instead, 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:01.720 at an appointed to the high priest, will bathe his 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:04.920 body in water and will put on special holy vestments, 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.280 and then he can enter into the presence of the Lord, 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:12.400 of the presence of the Ark to give offerings. And 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:15.080 then regarding the day of atonement, we're told the following. 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:18.760 This is from the NRSV, beginning chapter sixteen, verse five. 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:22.400 He shall take from the congregation of the Israelites two 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:27.480 male goats for a purification offering, and one ram for 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:30.800 a burnt offering. Eron shall offer the bull as a 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:35.239 purification offering for himself, and shall make atonement for himself 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:38.880 and for his house. He shall take the two goats 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:41.720 and set them before the Lord at the entrance of 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:45.440 the tent of meeting, and Erin shall cast lots on 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:48.560 the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:53.200 other lot for Azazel. Eron shall present the goat on 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:55.720 which the lot fell for the Lord and offer it 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.000 as a purification offering. But the goat on which the 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:02.800 lot fell for as Azel shall be presented alive before 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:06.240 the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:10.320 be sent away into the wilderness to as Azel. And 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:13.520 in the tradition of the Second Temple, as described in 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:17.559 the Mishnah, this ritual is understood to mean that one 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:22.480 goat is sacrificed to the Lord for purification, and the 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:27.480 other goat becomes a scapegoat. That word scapegoat in the 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:32.120 English language, I believe comes from the William Tyndale translation 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:36.960 of the Bible. William Tyndale, by the way, executed for heresy, 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:40.000 even though he gave us most of the English translation 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:42.000 that would end up in the King James Bible. 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:42.959 Oh wow. 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.680 But so that English word scapegoat. There is an attempt 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:50.600 to translate the concept of the goat for Asizel from 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:53.440 the day of atonement. So this is a goat that 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:57.960 is ritually designated as a vessel for the sins of 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:02.160 the Jewish people, and then, after being the sins of 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:04.920 the people are placed upon it, it is driven out 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.400 into the wilderness, perhaps to fall off a cliff and die. 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.760 So what does it mean to say that the scapegoat 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:16.120 was for as Azel. Well, Rabbis and scholars have interpreted 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:18.440 this phrase in a number of different ways over the ages. 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:22.800 So one interpretation is that as Azel is the name 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:26.360 of the place to which the goat was sent, specifically 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:31.640 maybe a rocky, desolate mountaintop or a land of impassable cliffs. 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:36.880 So there are different linguistic interpretations. But other commentaries have 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:41.080 held that as Azel was a proper name, the name 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:46.360 of a supernatural entity or power, And obviously this interpretation 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:49.520 is more relevant to what we're talking about today. In 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:53.880 this reading, as Azel is some kind of demon or 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:58.920 fallen angel, a spirit of defilement and wickedness haunting the desert, 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:01.720 and the goat on which the high priest places the 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:04.960 sins of the people is sent out for him. And 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:07.480 so despite the fact that in this ritual actually both 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:12.239 the Lord and this demonic figure each get one goat, 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.920 the scapegoat, the goat that carries the sins of the 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.720 people away to meet a filthy devil in the wasteland. 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:20.800 I think might be the more salient image. Kind of 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:25.520 in the same way that even in most early Christian 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:28.920 literature that gets into the idea of the afterlife, descriptions 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:32.320 of hell tend to be more vivid than descriptions of heaven, 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.640 just because of I don't know certain features of human psychology. 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.280 Yeah, I guess a lot of these traditions in which 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:43.760 hell is described too, those description very descriptions of hell 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:47.920 are kind of the oftentimes one of the only available 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:53.400 avenues into which into which you can pour your dark imagination. Yeah, 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.040 if you want, If you want to create paint devils 0:14:56.040 --> 0:15:00.880 and demons and grotesque hybrids, there are certain improved areas 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:05.120 of interest, generally religious sorts in later on and Western traditions. 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:07.960 You know, the mythological realm in paint whatever you want, 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:11.200 as long as you're depicting one of these stories. It's 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:12.960 important to a given culture. 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:16.800 Right, Yeah, you could use the dark imagination for allegedly 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:19.520 at least the purpose of discouraging sin, saying look what 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.480 will happen to you? Though it's interesting, you could argue 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:25.880 that that's the same principle on which exploitation movies are made. 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:28.920 It's like, well, we have important subject matter to talk 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:32.160 about here. This is a film educating people about the 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:36.360 dangers of using marijuana. Never mind that it's also just 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.760 an excuse to show a bunch of debauchery and party 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:40.680 scenes and stuff. 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:44.120 You know. The other thing about this scapegoat scenario, and 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:46.080 I was thinking it kind of matches up with some 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:49.560 stuff I was thinking about recently because I started using 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:54.440 a new meditation practice that I was taught called it's 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:58.040 a bitch, rather simple. It's just called leaves them a stream, 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.720 where you take a particular thought and you sort of 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.600 externalize yourself from that thought. You realize that you're thinking 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:09.120 that thought, and you imagine yourself at a stream. You 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:13.360 imagine yourself taking that thought, placing it on the leaf, 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.040 and letting it float down the stream away from you. 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:18.760 And that's all there is to it, you know. It's 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:23.320 just it's a very simple exercise of removing yourself from 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.800 a thought and then sending that thought away, you know, 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:30.600 not trying to avoid thinking that thought or avoid feeling 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:34.400 that feeling, but acknowledging it and then letting it go, 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:37.920 and I was as I was after using it and 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.400 finding it rather helpful. The last couple of weeks, I 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:42.280 was thinking, well, I wonder how much of this is 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:47.760 present in various religious practices throughout history. The idea, the 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:51.840 simple concept of like acknowledging something and then sending it away. 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:56.120 It seems like it may line up in some ways 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:57.440 with this sort of practice as well. 0:16:57.800 --> 0:16:59.720 Yeah, I can totally see that, though. Again, I think 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:03.080 it's interesting the specifics of the imagery here, which is 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:06.399 that the goat is being sent away for as a 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:10.640 zel for this demon in the desert. And you could 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:15.119 obviously see how this standard tradition of yam Kapur could 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:19.560 later give rise to a mental association between goats and 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.120 the creatures of hell, because the goat is being sent 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:23.760 out to meet this devil. 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.199 Yeah, what does he do with these goats? Does he? 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:29.119 Do they just hang out with him? Do they morph 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:32.400 into strange goat creatures? Does he eat them? Either way, 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:34.959 it would make you maybe think twice about seeing a 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:38.560 feral goat in the wild, which is something to think about. 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:40.800 I mean, even though these are domesticated species, you'll end 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:43.520 up with feral goats out there, and I can imagine 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.280 there might be something kind of haunting about a feral 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:49.119 domestic species that you encounter. It's kind of like a 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:51.080 ghost town or a haunted house. 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:54.080 Oh yeah, absolutely. And I also want to be clear 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:58.879 that the overall format of the scapegoat ritual is not 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.120 unique to Jewish tree addition, the scapegoat rituals of various 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:04.840 kinds are used in a number of ancient cultures, in 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:09.120 many instances not involving goats. For example, ancient Greece, I think, 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:16.240 especially like Athens and Ionia, would sometimes banish human scapegoats 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.440 to appease the gods and avoid some kind of bad fate, 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:23.480 such as in the festival of Thargelia, which was a 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:26.800 festival of Apollo, where it's said that often a sort 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:30.400 of a couple like a man and a woman who 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:34.719 were despised in some way, or who were considered physically ugly, 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:37.879 or for some reason were not wanted by the people 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:41.119 would be selected and then they would be paraded around 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:44.679 the town and they would be whipped with branches, like 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:48.479 branches of trees or pieces of vegetation that I think 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:52.720 was supposed to symbolize a kind of transference of guilt 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:57.159 or impurity of some kind from the people onto the couple, 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:00.919 and then they would be banished outside of the city, exiled, 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:03.640 presumably to die outside in the wilderness. 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:06.880 Well, we're not we're not advising anyone try that out. 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:11.520 What that doesn't just doesn't sound helpful to anybody. 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:24.520 No, I think, thar Gaelia we can safely put to rest. Yeah, okay, 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:29.920 I've got another biblical association between goats and sin or 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:33.680 evil or impurity. This one comes from the New Testament. 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:36.639 This comes from Christian traditions. Some people will probably be 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:40.280 familiar with the story of the sheep and the goats 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:43.240 in the New Testament. One passage to zero in on 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:46.760 here is in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter twenty five, 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.240 And for context, this is part of the so called 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:54.639 Olivet Discourse, which is a discourse in which Jesus is 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:58.000 giving a bunch of teachings that are full of apocalyptic 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:01.080 statements about what is going to happen when the Son 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:03.439 of Man comes. And these appear in all three of 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:08.199 the Synoptic Gospels, Mark, Luke, and Matthew. And they've got 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:11.159 different kinds of predictions. You know, there might be like 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:16.600 earthquakes and disasters, and the destruction of the temple and 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:20.160 so forth. But one of the things described happening when 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:23.159 the Son of Man comes in glory, begins in Matthew 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:27.200 chapter five, verse thirty one, and to quote from the NRSV, 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:30.240 it reads, when the Son of Man comes in glory 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:33.200 and all the angels with him, then he will sit 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:36.760 on the throne of his glory. All the nations will 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:40.200 be gathered before him, and he will separate people one 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:44.760 from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:47.040 and he will put the sheep at his right hand 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:48.800 and the goats at the left. 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:53.160 I definitely remember growing up hearing this in church, and 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:55.120 I mean on one level, it's like, okay, he's separating 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:58.480 people and good from bad. But I never really understood 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:02.359 like the sheep goat to do aspect of this. I'm 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:04.040 kind of like, well, a sheep and a goat. I mean, 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:07.080 I've been around both of them at petting zoos, and 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:10.280 it's not like one is grosser than the other anything, 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:13.480 or that one sweeter than the other. They're both domesticated 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:16.320 farm animals, and just one. The goat has a lot 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:17.760 more personality than the sheep. 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:21.520 In my opinion, I remember being confused too. It's actually 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:26.200 one of a number of comparisons or parables or stories 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:29.800 in the New Testament that kind of don't make sense 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:33.040 if you're not familiar with like an ancient agricultural context. 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:36.760 Like tons of these stories are about agriculture, and like, 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:39.639 I don't know what reaping and sewing are and stuff 0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:41.280 when I'm a little kid. I'm not a farmer, so 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:43.679 I like, I don't know what to think about this stuff. 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:45.640 But a lot of it ends up just being picked 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:47.480 up anyway, and people are like, yeah, you want to 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:48.720 be a sheep or a goat? Of course you want 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:50.440 to be a sheep. And you might go, yeah, of 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:51.920 course I want to be a sheep. But then again 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:53.960 you might ask, well, is there a third option? Is 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:56.960 farm animal? I could be in this scenario? 0:21:57.040 --> 0:21:58.760 Well, as best I can tell, I think it is 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:03.159 just a point of the point is really about the separation. 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:06.879 But to explain the rest of the story, So the 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:08.560 sheep go on the right hand, and the Son of 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:11.520 Man will bless them, and they're going to ask why 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:12.480 are we being blessed? 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:13.120 What did we do? 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:16.040 And Jesus goes on for the to give these famous statements. 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:18.280 He says, quote for I was hungry and you gave 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:20.639 me food. I was thirsty and you gave me something 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:23.000 to drink. I was a stranger and you welcomed me. 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:25.440 I was naked and you gave me clothing. I was 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:27.360 sick and you took care of me. I was in 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:29.920 prison and you visited me. And then they're going to 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:32.160 ask when did we do any of that? And then 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:34.480 the Son of Man will say to them, truly, I 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:36.800 tell you, just as you did it to one of 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:39.600 the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.880 did it to me. And then we get the same 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:45.800 answer inverted for the goats at the left hand. Why 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:48.920 are they at his left because they didn't do any 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:51.160 of that stuff for him? And they protest, well, they 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:55.000 never denied him food or drink or comfort, and quote 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:57.280