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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert.

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Speaker 2: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And Rob and I

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Speaker 2: are out this week, so we are bringing you an

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Speaker 2: episode from the vault. This is part two in our

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Speaker 2: series on the Goat and the devilish implications of the Goat.

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Speaker 2: It was originally published on October twentieth, twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 1: Enjoy Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. Hey,

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Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert.

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Speaker 2: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part

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Speaker 2: two of our series on the Goat.

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Speaker 1: That's right, it's Halloween season and for some reason, all

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Speaker 1: of our Halloween episodes so far have been livestock based.

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Speaker 1: And this is part two of our look at the goat,

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Speaker 1: a creature that in reality is, you know, pretty gentle.

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Speaker 1: Nothing too weird about the goat for the most part.

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Speaker 1: Nothing the faari is, certainly, but within the larger traditions

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Speaker 1: of mythology and folklore, various other connotations take over and

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Speaker 1: kind of spin out of control until you have ultimately

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Speaker 1: demonic goats, half goat, half human hybrids that may not

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Speaker 1: have the best intentions at heart, and then also even

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Speaker 1: a few cinematic incarnations, horror movie incarnations of the goat.

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Speaker 1: We mentioned the Witch in the first episode, of course,

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Speaker 1: and Joe and I were trying to off Mike. We're

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Speaker 1: trying to think of other spooky goats in films, or

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Speaker 1: its even just spooky goat people in films, and there

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Speaker 1: aren't maybe a ton of them, Like there are more

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Speaker 1: way more killer cat movies and certainly killer dog movies

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Speaker 1: than there are killer goat movies.

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Speaker 2: Well, it depends on if you include goat headed demons,

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Speaker 2: then that massively expands the range. And as we were discussing,

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Speaker 2: there is one Italian horror movie that has a really

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Speaker 2: glorious goat costume that you only see for a couple

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Speaker 2: of seconds. But it's in the Church.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a nineteen eighty nine film. It's been a

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Speaker 1: while since I've seen it, but it was produced by

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Speaker 1: Dario Argento and a few others, and it's quite an

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Speaker 1: interesting film, kind of a lower budget accult film that

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Speaker 1: was perhaps partially inspired by the Name of the Rose,

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Speaker 1: Like what if the Name of the Rose had one

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Speaker 1: of the actors from the Name of the Rose but

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Speaker 1: then also a demonic goat man roman.

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Speaker 2: About Oh okay, Yeah, and.

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Speaker 1: Of course The Devil Rides Out, which we discussed on

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Speaker 1: Weird House Cinema earlier in the year that has a

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Speaker 1: great goat man in it as well, but they're.

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Speaker 2: Not a wonderful, big old goat boy at a party.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, probably one of the better ones committed to the screen,

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Speaker 1: but you don't see them a lot. I think I've

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Speaker 1: mentioned before I think the first cinematic vision of like

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Speaker 1: goat obsessed Cultists was the movie adaptation of Dragnet. This,

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Speaker 1: I think a nineteen eighty seven film. Dan Ackroyd heavily

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Speaker 1: involved in that. I think Christopher Plumber is in it

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Speaker 1: as well and plays one of the cultests, and so

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Speaker 1: there's you know, there's scenes of some sort of a

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Speaker 1: Hollywood black mass thing going on, and people wearing goat

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Speaker 1: leggings and goat heads and so forth.

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Speaker 2: You're saying, that's the first one you remember seeing.

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Speaker 1: That's the first one I remember seeing as a kid,

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Speaker 1: because you know, that was I think essentially supposed to

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Speaker 1: be a family movie. You know, I remember there being

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Speaker 1: plenty of elements in it there were maybe not so

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Speaker 1: family friendly, but you know it was the eighties. Oh

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Speaker 1: and Seth just poked in to mention. Of course, Pan's Labyrinth,

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Speaker 1: Gimel Do Toro's film, which does have a fabulous Pan

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Speaker 1: incarnation as well as well as some other just fabulous creatures.

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Speaker 1: Definitely not a family movie that one either. It's got

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Speaker 1: some brutal violence and some very you know, real world themes,

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Speaker 1: but also so fantastic mythological world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody remembers the monster with the eyes in its

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Speaker 2: hands in that movie, even though Pans in the title. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's not called Eyes in Palms Labyrinth.

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Speaker 1: For many of you. Though, when you think cinematic goat men,

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Speaker 1: imagine for an entire generation of people. There's one particular

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Speaker 1: portrayal you're going to think of, and that's going to

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Speaker 1: be James McAvoy's two thousand and five portrayal of mister

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Speaker 1: Tumnus in The Lion the Witch in the Wardrobe.

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Speaker 2: I never saw that adaptation.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, I have a feeling and go get around

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Speaker 1: to it. It's a good one. It rewatched, it recently

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Speaker 1: holds up pretty well. It's got some great creatures in it,

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Speaker 1: and of course, in addition to James macavoy, we have

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Speaker 1: a tremendous Tilda Swinton performance as the White Witch. So

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Speaker 1: those two elements are alone are enough reason to check

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Speaker 1: it out.

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Speaker 2: Does the movie have Turkish delight in it?

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Speaker 1: Oh, of course you can't not have Turkish delight in it.

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Speaker 1: So I was thinking about mister Tumnus because we were

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Speaker 1: talking about satyrs and fawns in the last episode, and

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Speaker 1: I realized that this is an odd, pretty obvious modern

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Speaker 1: fictional presentation of particularly a fawn in this situation. He's

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Speaker 1: described as a fawn, of course, appears in C. S.

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Speaker 1: Lewis's Narnia book The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe

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Speaker 1: and various adaptations of that work. And despite all of

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Speaker 1: the various connotations of the satyr and the fawn that

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Speaker 1: Lewis was obviously quite aware of, mister Tumnus is a

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Speaker 1: rather compassionate figure and not at all a nasty old

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Speaker 1: he goat about. The worst thing you can say about

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Speaker 1: him is that he's technically working for the White Witch.

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Speaker 1: He's technically prepared to poison one of the children and

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Speaker 1: then deliver her to the White Witch, but then he

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Speaker 1: quickly betrays the White Witch to help the children of Earth.

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Speaker 1: So while he's not really portrayed for the most part

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Speaker 1: as a sexual being. Still, James McAvoy's two thousand and

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Speaker 1: five portrayal has perhaps a little bit of unintended allure

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Speaker 1: to it. I think it's one of those situations where,

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Speaker 1: even if you try and strip those elements away from

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Speaker 1: the visual satyr or fawn, if you then recreate the fawn,

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Speaker 1: especially using an actual person, an actual actor, you cannot

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Speaker 1: help but evoke some of its symbolic essence. Lewis, by

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Speaker 1: the way, also wrote a poem titled The Satyr, which

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Speaker 1: also seems to dwell on the creature's more sublime qualities.

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Speaker 1: This is one that he wrote much earlier as an

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Speaker 1: adolescent atheist, is pointed out by Joe R. Christopher in

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Speaker 1: a twenty sixteen paper title C. S. Lewis's Two Satyrs,

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Speaker 1: referring to this poem and then to mister Tumnus, I thought,

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Speaker 1: I thought I might read just a little of this poem.

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Speaker 1: You can find the whole thing at allpoetry dot com.

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Speaker 1: But it begins like this, when the flowery hands of

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Speaker 1: spring forth their woodland riches, fling through the meadows, through

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Speaker 1: the valleys, goes the satyr, caroling from the mountain and

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Speaker 1: the moor forest green and ocean shore, all the fairy

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Speaker 1: kin he rallies making music ever more, See the shaggy

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Speaker 1: pelf doth grow on his twisted shanks below, and his

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Speaker 1: dreadful feet are cloven, though his brow be white as snow.

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Speaker 1: And it goes on from there's a fun little little poem. Now.

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Speaker 1: Christopher's Ride Up is I think a pretty interesting analysis,

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Speaker 1: as long as you're in for sort of at times

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Speaker 1: a psycho sexual interpretation of a Narnia book, which I

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Speaker 1: realized it is not everyone's cup of tea, but still

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Speaker 1: I think it's quite interesting. And he points out that

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Speaker 1: while mister Tumnus is largely desatorized defaanntinized, if you will,

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Speaker 1: there are still hints of the basic nature he is

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Speaker 1: overcoming and being civilized, and so forth. Mentions of times

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Speaker 1: when quote and this is from the line the Witch

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Speaker 1: and the wardrobe quote, the woods were green and old

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Speaker 1: salinas on his fat donkey would to visit them, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes Bacchus himself, and then the streams would run with

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Speaker 1: wine instead of water, and the whole forest would give

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Speaker 1: itself up to jollification for weeks on end jollification. Yeah, so,

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Speaker 1: Christopher ultimately writes in this paper quote. If one compares

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Speaker 1: Lewis's two satyrs, one finds that both are about the

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Speaker 1: split in the male human. Partly he is led by reason,

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Speaker 1: by wisdom and high thoughts, by family, moors and philia,

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Speaker 1: and partially he is driven by sexual or bestial or

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Speaker 1: devilish and or traitorous impulses. The satyr attracts fairy maidens

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Speaker 1: by his unhappiness. Perhaps he is unhappy because women flee

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Speaker 1: from him, but more likely, has suggested before, he is

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Speaker 1: unhappy because he has self divided himself about his relationship

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Speaker 1: to women. The fawn mister Tumnus shows that a man

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Speaker 1: can control his impulses, his animal or devilish side, and

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Speaker 1: treat a woman well.

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Speaker 2: Huh, Well, I don't know quite what to make that,

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Speaker 2: because I haven't read this since I was a kid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I listened to the audiobook version of it in

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Speaker 1: recent years, so it's a little fresher on my mind

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Speaker 1: as well. But I'd love to hear it from everyone

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Speaker 1: out there, because I know we have a lot of

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of people out there who either

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Speaker 1: grew up on these books or these movies and maybe

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Speaker 1: thought one way about them at one point in their

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Speaker 1: life and thought another way much later. But mister Tumnus

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Speaker 1: is still there, standing essentially naked in the snow. I

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Speaker 1: think he's wearing a scarf in the movie version, but

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Speaker 1: otherwise looks very naked except for the goat for.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, in the previous episode, we were talking about

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Speaker 2: the question of why the cultural association, especially stemming from

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Speaker 2: Christian continental Europe, between goats and devils or between goats

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Speaker 2: and wickedness. Where does this association come from, especially given

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Speaker 2: that it's not universal. Of course, it's not like every

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Speaker 2: culture thinks goats are evil? So what are the origin points?

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Speaker 2: And I think we can POSSI find some points of

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Speaker 2: inspiration for this mental link link between goats and demons.

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Speaker 2: In the Biblical tradition itself, going all the way back

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Speaker 2: to the Torah. One of the most prominent appearances of

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Speaker 2: goats in the Hebrew Bible is the prescription for the

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Speaker 2: Day of Atonement or Yam Kapor. Yam Kapur is the

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Speaker 2: holiest day of the year in Judaism. It is a

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Speaker 2: day dedicated to the ritual cleansing of sin and the

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Speaker 2: ritual is described in the Book of Leviticus, chapter sixteen

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Speaker 2: as a prelude. The Lord is talking to Moses, and

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Speaker 2: the Lord tells Moses that erin the High Priest, he

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Speaker 2: can't just come into the presence of the Ark of

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Speaker 2: the Covenant at any time, or God may appear in

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Speaker 2: a cloud upon the cover of the Ark and kill him.

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Speaker 2: And this is coming after God has already struck out

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Speaker 2: from the Ark and killed people who did the wrong

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Speaker 2: thing with it, who maybe brought strange fire before it. Instead,

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Speaker 2: at an appointed to the high priest, will bathe his

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Speaker 2: body in water and will put on special holy vestments,

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Speaker 2: and then he can enter into the presence of the Lord,

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Speaker 2: of the presence of the Ark to give offerings. And

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Speaker 2: then regarding the day of atonement, we're told the following.

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Speaker 2: This is from the NRSV, beginning chapter sixteen, verse five.

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Speaker 2: He shall take from the congregation of the Israelites two

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Speaker 2: male goats for a purification offering, and one ram for

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Speaker 2: a burnt offering. Eron shall offer the bull as a

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Speaker 2: purification offering for himself, and shall make atonement for himself

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Speaker 2: and for his house. He shall take the two goats

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Speaker 2: and set them before the Lord at the entrance of

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Speaker 2: the tent of meeting, and Erin shall cast lots on

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Speaker 2: the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the

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Speaker 2: other lot for Azazel. Eron shall present the goat on

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Speaker 2: which the lot fell for the Lord and offer it

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Speaker 2: as a purification offering. But the goat on which the

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Speaker 2: lot fell for as Azel shall be presented alive before

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Speaker 2: the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may

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Speaker 2: be sent away into the wilderness to as Azel. And

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Speaker 2: in the tradition of the Second Temple, as described in

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Speaker 2: the Mishnah, this ritual is understood to mean that one

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Speaker 2: goat is sacrificed to the Lord for purification, and the

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Speaker 2: other goat becomes a scapegoat. That word scapegoat in the

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Speaker 2: English language, I believe comes from the William Tyndale translation

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Speaker 2: of the Bible. William Tyndale, by the way, executed for heresy,

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Speaker 2: even though he gave us most of the English translation

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Speaker 2: that would end up in the King James Bible.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow.

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Speaker 2: But so that English word scapegoat. There is an attempt

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Speaker 2: to translate the concept of the goat for Asizel from

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Speaker 2: the day of atonement. So this is a goat that

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Speaker 2: is ritually designated as a vessel for the sins of

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Speaker 2: the Jewish people, and then, after being the sins of

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Speaker 2: the people are placed upon it, it is driven out

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Speaker 2: into the wilderness, perhaps to fall off a cliff and die.

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Speaker 2: So what does it mean to say that the scapegoat

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Speaker 2: was for as Azel. Well, Rabbis and scholars have interpreted

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Speaker 2: this phrase in a number of different ways over the ages.

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Speaker 2: So one interpretation is that as Azel is the name

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Speaker 2: of the place to which the goat was sent, specifically

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Speaker 2: maybe a rocky, desolate mountaintop or a land of impassable cliffs.

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Speaker 2: So there are different linguistic interpretations. But other commentaries have

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Speaker 2: held that as Azel was a proper name, the name

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Speaker 2: of a supernatural entity or power, And obviously this interpretation

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Speaker 2: is more relevant to what we're talking about today. In

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Speaker 2: this reading, as Azel is some kind of demon or

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Speaker 2: fallen angel, a spirit of defilement and wickedness haunting the desert,

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Speaker 2: and the goat on which the high priest places the

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Speaker 2: sins of the people is sent out for him. And

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Speaker 2: so despite the fact that in this ritual actually both

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Speaker 2: the Lord and this demonic figure each get one goat,

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Speaker 2: the scapegoat, the goat that carries the sins of the

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Speaker 2: people away to meet a filthy devil in the wasteland.

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Speaker 2: I think might be the more salient image. Kind of

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Speaker 2: in the same way that even in most early Christian

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Speaker 2: literature that gets into the idea of the afterlife, descriptions

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Speaker 2: of hell tend to be more vivid than descriptions of heaven,

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Speaker 2: just because of I don't know certain features of human psychology.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess a lot of these traditions in which

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Speaker 1: hell is described too, those description very descriptions of hell

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Speaker 1: are kind of the oftentimes one of the only available

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Speaker 1: avenues into which into which you can pour your dark imagination. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you want, If you want to create paint devils

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Speaker 1: and demons and grotesque hybrids, there are certain improved areas

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Speaker 1: of interest, generally religious sorts in later on and Western traditions.

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Speaker 1: You know, the mythological realm in paint whatever you want,

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Speaker 1: as long as you're depicting one of these stories. It's

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Speaker 1: important to a given culture.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you could use the dark imagination for allegedly

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Speaker 2: at least the purpose of discouraging sin, saying look what

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Speaker 2: will happen to you? Though it's interesting, you could argue

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Speaker 2: that that's the same principle on which exploitation movies are made.

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Speaker 2: It's like, well, we have important subject matter to talk

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Speaker 2: about here. This is a film educating people about the

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Speaker 2: dangers of using marijuana. Never mind that it's also just

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Speaker 2: an excuse to show a bunch of debauchery and party

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Speaker 2: scenes and stuff.

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Speaker 1: You know. The other thing about this scapegoat scenario, and

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Speaker 1: I was thinking it kind of matches up with some

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Speaker 1: stuff I was thinking about recently because I started using

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Speaker 1: a new meditation practice that I was taught called it's

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Speaker 1: a bitch, rather simple. It's just called leaves them a stream,

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Speaker 1: where you take a particular thought and you sort of

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Speaker 1: externalize yourself from that thought. You realize that you're thinking

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Speaker 1: that thought, and you imagine yourself at a stream. You

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Speaker 1: imagine yourself taking that thought, placing it on the leaf,

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Speaker 1: and letting it float down the stream away from you.

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Speaker 1: And that's all there is to it, you know. It's

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Speaker 1: just it's a very simple exercise of removing yourself from

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Speaker 1: a thought and then sending that thought away, you know,

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Speaker 1: not trying to avoid thinking that thought or avoid feeling

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Speaker 1: that feeling, but acknowledging it and then letting it go,

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Speaker 1: and I was as I was after using it and

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Speaker 1: finding it rather helpful. The last couple of weeks, I

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Speaker 1: was thinking, well, I wonder how much of this is

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Speaker 1: present in various religious practices throughout history. The idea, the

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Speaker 1: simple concept of like acknowledging something and then sending it away.

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Speaker 1: It seems like it may line up in some ways

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Speaker 1: with this sort of practice as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I can totally see that, though. Again, I think

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Speaker 2: it's interesting the specifics of the imagery here, which is

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Speaker 2: that the goat is being sent away for as a

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Speaker 2: zel for this demon in the desert. And you could

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Speaker 2: obviously see how this standard tradition of yam Kapur could

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Speaker 2: later give rise to a mental association between goats and

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Speaker 2: the creatures of hell, because the goat is being sent

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Speaker 2: out to meet this devil.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what does he do with these goats? Does he?

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Speaker 1: Do they just hang out with him? Do they morph

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Speaker 1: into strange goat creatures? Does he eat them? Either way,

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Speaker 1: it would make you maybe think twice about seeing a

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Speaker 1: feral goat in the wild, which is something to think about.

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Speaker 1: I mean, even though these are domesticated species, you'll end

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Speaker 1: up with feral goats out there, and I can imagine

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Speaker 1: there might be something kind of haunting about a feral

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Speaker 1: domestic species that you encounter. It's kind of like a

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Speaker 1: ghost town or a haunted house.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely. And I also want to be clear

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Speaker 2: that the overall format of the scapegoat ritual is not

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Speaker 2: unique to Jewish tree addition, the scapegoat rituals of various

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Speaker 2: kinds are used in a number of ancient cultures, in

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Speaker 2: many instances not involving goats. For example, ancient Greece, I think,

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Speaker 2: especially like Athens and Ionia, would sometimes banish human scapegoats

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Speaker 2: to appease the gods and avoid some kind of bad fate,

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Speaker 2: such as in the festival of Thargelia, which was a

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Speaker 2: festival of Apollo, where it's said that often a sort

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Speaker 2: of a couple like a man and a woman who

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Speaker 2: were despised in some way, or who were considered physically ugly,

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Speaker 2: or for some reason were not wanted by the people

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Speaker 2: would be selected and then they would be paraded around

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Speaker 2: the town and they would be whipped with branches, like

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Speaker 2: branches of trees or pieces of vegetation that I think

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Speaker 2: was supposed to symbolize a kind of transference of guilt

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Speaker 2: or impurity of some kind from the people onto the couple,

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Speaker 2: and then they would be banished outside of the city, exiled,

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Speaker 2: presumably to die outside in the wilderness.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're not we're not advising anyone try that out.

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Speaker 1: What that doesn't just doesn't sound helpful to anybody.

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Speaker 2: No, I think, thar Gaelia we can safely put to rest. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: I've got another biblical association between goats and sin or

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Speaker 2: evil or impurity. This one comes from the New Testament.

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Speaker 2: This comes from Christian traditions. Some people will probably be

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Speaker 2: familiar with the story of the sheep and the goats

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Speaker 2: in the New Testament. One passage to zero in on

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Speaker 2: here is in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter twenty five,

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Speaker 2: And for context, this is part of the so called

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Speaker 2: Olivet Discourse, which is a discourse in which Jesus is

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Speaker 2: giving a bunch of teachings that are full of apocalyptic

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Speaker 2: statements about what is going to happen when the Son

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Speaker 2: of Man comes. And these appear in all three of

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Speaker 2: the Synoptic Gospels, Mark, Luke, and Matthew. And they've got

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Speaker 2: different kinds of predictions. You know, there might be like

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Speaker 2: earthquakes and disasters, and the destruction of the temple and

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Speaker 2: so forth. But one of the things described happening when

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Speaker 2: the Son of Man comes in glory, begins in Matthew

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Speaker 2: chapter five, verse thirty one, and to quote from the NRSV,

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Speaker 2: it reads, when the Son of Man comes in glory

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Speaker 2: and all the angels with him, then he will sit

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Speaker 2: on the throne of his glory. All the nations will

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Speaker 2: be gathered before him, and he will separate people one

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Speaker 2: from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,

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Speaker 2: and he will put the sheep at his right hand

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Speaker 2: and the goats at the left.

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Speaker 1: I definitely remember growing up hearing this in church, and

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Speaker 1: I mean on one level, it's like, okay, he's separating

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Speaker 1: people and good from bad. But I never really understood

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Speaker 1: like the sheep goat to do aspect of this. I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of like, well, a sheep and a goat. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've been around both of them at petting zoos, and

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Speaker 1: it's not like one is grosser than the other anything,

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Speaker 1: or that one sweeter than the other. They're both domesticated

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Speaker 1: farm animals, and just one. The goat has a lot

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Speaker 1: more personality than the sheep.

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Speaker 2: In my opinion, I remember being confused too. It's actually

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Speaker 2: one of a number of comparisons or parables or stories

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Speaker 2: in the New Testament that kind of don't make sense

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Speaker 2: if you're not familiar with like an ancient agricultural context.

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Speaker 2: Like tons of these stories are about agriculture, and like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what reaping and sewing are and stuff

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Speaker 2: when I'm a little kid. I'm not a farmer, so

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Speaker 2: I like, I don't know what to think about this stuff.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of it ends up just being picked

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Speaker 1: up anyway, and people are like, yeah, you want to

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Speaker 1: be a sheep or a goat? Of course you want

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Speaker 1: to be a sheep. And you might go, yeah, of

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Speaker 1: course I want to be a sheep. But then again

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Speaker 1: you might ask, well, is there a third option? Is

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Speaker 1: farm animal? I could be in this scenario?

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Speaker 2: Well, as best I can tell, I think it is

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Speaker 2: just a point of the point is really about the separation.

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Speaker 2: But to explain the rest of the story, So the

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Speaker 2: sheep go on the right hand, and the Son of

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Speaker 2: Man will bless them, and they're going to ask why

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Speaker 2: are we being blessed?

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Speaker 1: What did we do?

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Speaker 2: And Jesus goes on for the to give these famous statements.

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Speaker 2: He says, quote for I was hungry and you gave

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Speaker 2: me food. I was thirsty and you gave me something

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Speaker 2: to drink. I was a stranger and you welcomed me.

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Speaker 2: I was naked and you gave me clothing. I was

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Speaker 2: sick and you took care of me. I was in

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Speaker 2: prison and you visited me. And then they're going to

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Speaker 2: ask when did we do any of that? And then

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Speaker 2: the Son of Man will say to them, truly, I

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Speaker 2: tell you, just as you did it to one of

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Speaker 2: the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you

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Speaker 2: did it to me. And then we get the same

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Speaker 2: answer inverted for the goats at the left hand. Why

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Speaker 2: are they at his left because they didn't do any

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Speaker 2: of that stuff for him? And they protest, well, they

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Speaker 2: never denied him food or drink or comfort, and quote

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Speaker 2: then he will answer them, truly, I tell you, just

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Speaker 2: as you did not do it to one of the

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Speaker 2: least of these, did not do it to me. And

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Speaker 2: then it says, and these will go away into eternal punishment,

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Speaker 2: but the righteous into eternal life. So in this story,

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Speaker 2: the sheep are representing the righteous, who will inherit the

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Speaker 2: Kingdom of God, and the goats are representing the unrighteous

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Speaker 2: who must depart into destruction to be annihilated when the

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Speaker 2: Son of Man comes in power. So I was thinking,

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Speaker 2: why goats here? I didn't find an answer to this

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Speaker 2: that I found super authoritatively convincing. I read one evangelical

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Speaker 2: theological blog post that had an interesting idea. I don't

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Speaker 2: know how valid this was, but at least it suggested

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Speaker 2: that when you're maintaining mixed herds of goats and sheep,

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Speaker 2: which I do think was actually common in the Levant

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Speaker 2: at this time, goats reproduce faster than sheep, so herdsmen

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Speaker 2: would have to regularly cull young male goats to maintain

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Speaker 2: the correct balance of their flocks. And if they didn't

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Speaker 2: regularly cull the young male goats, the goats would reproduce

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Speaker 2: faster and they would take over there would be too

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Speaker 2: many of them in the flock.

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Speaker 1: M Okay, well, that seems to match up with some

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Speaker 1: of what we were talking about in the last episode

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Speaker 1: about the sex life of the goat.

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Speaker 2: But I would say the question of what is the

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Speaker 2: underlying agricultural reasoning about the goats and the sheep here?

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Speaker 2: That may be true but I don't know. I'm still

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Speaker 2: interested in this. I feel like there's got to be

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Speaker 2: a good answer out there I just haven't found yet.

430
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is certainly if we have any people

431
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: with herding experience or vaster herding ag knowledge right in

432
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,719
Speaker 1: and let us know, was a good reason to separate

433
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: the goats from the sheep. Now, at this point, I

434
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 1: thought we might get into some other examples of folklore

435
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 1: of the goat and the he goat, and perhaps some

436
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 1: more religious traditions and mythological traditions of the goat. Some

437
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 1: of these are going to match up and be more

438
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 1: in line with some of the demonic goat ideas that

439
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 1: we've discussed thus far. Some are going to go in

440
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: an entirely different direction. We're going to get a little

441
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: bit into divine goats at times. One example that came

442
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: up in my research this is from an eighteenth century

443
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 1: folk lores by the name of John Brand. Brand wrote, quote,

444
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 1: there is a popular superstition relative to goats. They are

445
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,360
Speaker 1: supposed never to be seen for twenty four hours together,

446
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 1: and that once in that space they pay a visit

447
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: to the devil in order to have their beards combed.

448
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 1: This is common both in England and Scotland.

449
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 2: What I don't think I even understand what that's claiming?

450
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 1: What is it?

451
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 2: How did you understand the never scene? For twenty four

452
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 2: hours together?

453
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: This I took to be about this sort of the

454
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: nature of the goat, Like the goat is gonna get around,

455
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: it's gonna explore, it's gonna climb a little bit, it's

456
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: going to poke around and see what's available to eat.

457
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 1: And therefore I'm imagining a herdsman might maybe have a

458
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 1: little more of a time keeping track of the goats

459
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: and it be like, well, I think one's missing, and

460
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: then you find them and they're like, okay, now we

461
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: have all the goats. I wonder where that goat went. Well,

462
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: it's probably just the other side of the hill or

463
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: was poking around under something. But what if it was

464
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: visiting the devil? And what would a goat? I feel

465
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: like there's kind of a This is one of those

466
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: folk beliefs that maybe has a little tongue in cheek,

467
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: you know, like why would a goat actually go to

468
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 1: the devil? What do they have that the devil can

469
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: offer them? Well, their beards need combed every now and then.

470
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: I get that nice sheen. So I don't know I

471
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 1: found it. I found it more amusing than illuminating.

472
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 2: It's like when the dog just gets back from the groomers.

473
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 2: It's the goat just comes back, but he's been with

474
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 2: the devil. He looks luxurious.

475
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess it's something about a domesticated species that

476
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: it has a little bit of a it still has

477
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: some of that adventurous spirit to it. You know, we

478
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 1: often have supernatural ideas about what it does and where

479
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: it goes, and what its intentions are, such as with

480
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 1: the cat. The cat is going to want to go

481
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 1: off and do its own things. Where does the cat go?

482
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: What is it up to? That sort of thing. Now,

483
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 1: an interesting paper I was looking at is a paper

484
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: titled A Note on Goats Defoe on Crusoe's Devil from

485
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, and this is by Aaron Santisso this

486
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: of course is referring to Robinson Crusoe by Daniel Dafoe.

487
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: Robinson Crusoe not a work that I think I've ever read,

488
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: but i've certainly, I think seen various film or even

489
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: cartoon adaptations of it over the years. Maybe I read

490
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: it in school, but it's been a very long time.

491
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 2: I think when I was a kid, I had a

492
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: children's abridged and ad adapted version of it, which is

493
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 2: weird to think about.

494
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,959
Speaker 1: I think that may have been how I encountered it

495
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: as well, But this is still an interesting paper to read.

496
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: I didn't know there were I did not remember there

497
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: being any goats in it, but that seems to be

498
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 1: the case. The author here writes that by the eighteenth century,

499
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 1: old goat and goat foot were popular euphemisms for Satan,

500
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: and the devil was said to take the form of

501
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: a goat, and the image of Satan was often depicted

502
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: as that of a robed, goat headed man. That kind

503
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: of became the staple image. But apparently Yeah, to explain

504
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: the title of the work, there is a bit in

505
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: Robinson Crusoe where he encounters goats, and at the same time,

506
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 1: Daniel Dfoe wrote an entire book on the perceived presence

507
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: of Satan in global affairs, The Political History of the

508
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: Devil from seventeen twenty six.

509
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,479
Speaker 2: Funny with that title, that could be either a really

510
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 2: interesting book of historical scholarship, or that could be a

511
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,439
Speaker 2: wild conspiracy tract.

512
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's another work I've not read and I only

513
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:44,239
Speaker 1: have just a brief summaries understanding of it, but at

514
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: any rate, I thought it was worth mentioning real quick

515
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: a couple of goat man type creatures that seem related

516
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: in some cases to the satyrs and the Fawnds that

517
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: pop up in the encyclopedias of Carol Rose. There's the Bachman.

518
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,719
Speaker 1: This is a goat man of German folklore, used as

519
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: a nursery bogey to keep kids away from the forest.

520
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: So near the forest and the Bachman might get you.

521
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: And of course, in imagining a Germanic goat man, we

522
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: of course can't help but think of the Crampis creatures

523
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: as well.

524
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I was gonna I was gonna bring up Crampus,

525
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 2: but also as a brief refresher on the idea of

526
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: a nursery bogee. This was an idea we explored in

527
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: our series on Jinny Green Teeth from a few octobers back,

528
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 2: which is a famous nursery bogey. I think the concept

529
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 2: of a nursery bogie is a monster that is specifically

530
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 2: designed to warn children away from some type of dangerous behavior.

531
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we actually mentioned nursery bogies in the last

532
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: episode talking about Goya. Goya, Yeah, talking about Goya, and

533
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: one bit about the you know, watch out for the Boogeyman.

534
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: It was both a kind of a takedown of parents

535
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: engaging and supernatural ideas to scare obedience into their children

536
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: and at the same time like preparing them for adulthood

537
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: full of supernatural beliefs. Another creature that Rose mentions is

538
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: the buckanock, which is described She describes as quote a vast,

539
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: menacing goat, and it's said to terrify travelers on lonely

540
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: Irish roads at night, which I think is interesting and

541
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: makes me think of the experience even today of encountering

542
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: either a feral goat or a wandering goat on the

543
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: roadside and seeing it illuminated in your headlights. Obviously wouldn't

544
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: be the same situation on lonely Irish roads in olden times,

545
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: but still, perhaps if you had some sort of a

546
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: lantern and your lantern light caught the eyes of the

547
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: goat just right, might be a bit creepy.

548
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 2: Now, sticking to the British Isles for a minute, I

549
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: came across an interesting goat related creature known as the

550
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 2: Gleistig or the Green Maiden, a malevolent fairy from Scottish

551
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:04,719
Speaker 2: Gaelic mythology. According to the Oxford Reference Encyclopedia, this monster

552
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 2: sometimes appears as a beautiful woman, but other times as

553
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 2: a half woman, half goat, and she seduces a male victim,

554
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,479
Speaker 2: brings him, lures him to her hideaway near a secluded pool,

555
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 2: and then when they are alone, she slashes his throat

556
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 2: and drinks all his blood. And I thought this was

557
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 2: interesting because it echoes the idea of goat says sort

558
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: of a sexual danger in some way, except usually it's

559
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 2: like the idea of a lusty he goat that is

560
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 2: that kind of mythological threat. Here, instead it is an

561
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 2: evil fairy woman who seduces male victims. Interesting though it's

562
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 2: also noted that in other variations, the Glistig is not

563
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 2: dangerous and is a helpful creature who protects children and

564
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 2: the elderly.

565
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: That's an interesting one. Yeah, I hadn't heard of that one. Now.

566
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: In Norse tradition, we have a pair of giant goats

567
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: that are rather famous. They are Tang Grishner and Tang Groschner.

568
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: They are two giant goats that pull the chariot of

569
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: Thor across the skies. In Norse mythology. I may have

570
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: butchered their names a little bit, but those are translated

571
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: as tooth gnasher and tooth grinder, and these are depicted

572
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: in the latest Thor movie as well as screaming goats.

573
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 2: Screaming like the goats from the internet video.

574
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, just screaming the whole time. It's pretty amusing. There's

575
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: some amusing stuff in that film. Now, another creature I

576
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: came across is the yale or centacore. This is a

577
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: mythical beast found in European mythology and and ultimately European heraldry,

578
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: described by plenty of the Elder. Depictions vary from goat

579
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: like to more of an more like an antelope, and

580
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: the descriptions have been linked to varying creatures from distant lands.

581
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: So this is where we kind of get into We

582
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: mentioned this in the last episode. When you're dealing with

583
00:32:55,520 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: either mythological creatures, folkloric creatures, or accounts of action creatures

584
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: in distant lands, the translation of them may take on

585
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: different forms. It might end up being a little more

586
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: goat like, it might be more horse like, and there

587
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: are examples where it might take on the forms of

588
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: other animals. It reminds me too of Europeans going out

589
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: into the world and discovering new fruits and thinking, oh,

590
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: what kind of apple is this? Oh, we will call

591
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: it the pine apple, Like what kind of strange goat

592
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: is this? We will interpret this idea of a new

593
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: creature by using the goat as a base point. Now,

594
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: another creature that I read about is the latter rog.

595
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: This is a white, golden horned goat in the traditions

596
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: of Slovenia. And the basic idea here is that this

597
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: is a fabulous I mean it's not only is it

598
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: a big goat, almost like a ram like creature, it

599
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: also has horns that are gold, presumably real gold. So

600
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: of course hunters want it. Hunters go out, they chase

601
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: it around. But this is a smart creature. This is

602
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: a savvy creature, and it may well lead you over

603
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: a ravine where you fall to your death. The creature

604
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 1: is also known as or as translated to just being

605
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: called gold horn, and it also seems to be the

606
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: mascot of a Slovenian beer. So if anyone out there

607
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: is a fan of international beers or if you have

608
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: any drinkers of this particular beer, I would love to

609
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: hear your thoughts on it. I looked it up on

610
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: Beer Advocate. It has a score of seventy three there,

611
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: which I guess that's okay. It says okay right here,

612
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: seventy three okay, must be an okay beer.

613
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 2: Rob, I have had this beer?

614
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: What oh do tell I? Well?

615
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 2: I drank this when I was in Slovenia. Yeah, so

616
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,439
Speaker 2: in Slovenia. I don't know if it's still this way,

617
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 2: but when I was there, it seemed to me there

618
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: were basically two types of beer. There was Union, which

619
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: is spelled like the English word union, and there was Lashko.

620
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 2: And I recall thinking that it seemed like the bars

621
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 2: were divided by which beer they sold. I don't know

622
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 2: if that's really true, but it seemed that way to me.

623
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: So you'd have like an Union bar and a Loshko bar,

624
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 2: and it's like, do you want to go to the

625
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 2: place that has lashco or do you want to go

626
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 2: to the other place. And for whatever reason, I ended

627
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 2: up on the Lashko side, So I was drinking those

628
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 2: I think I only had a couple of onions.

629
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: You didn't have enough to fall into a ravine. That's

630
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:29,399
Speaker 1: the no. No.

631
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 2: To be fair, I know I drank Lashko. I don't

632
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: know if I if it was the Zlatterog variety. I

633
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 2: think it probably was because it looks like that's one

634
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 2: of their flagship beers, but I can't be positive it was.

635
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 2: I mean, because it looks like there's also like just

636
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,399
Speaker 2: you know, Lashco light and stuff like that, but I

637
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 2: think I had this one. I definitely had plenty of Loashko.

638
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: Awesome. Well that's that's fabulous question answered. But then then,

639
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: of course, if anyone out there has more experience with

640
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 1: this beer right in, let us know.

641
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would appreciate it. Slovenian listeners. To clarify my memories,

642
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 2: are there actually Lashco bars and Union bars or is

643
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 2: that just an all mixed step in my head. Another

644
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 2: thing about drinking in Slovenia was I remember everywhere I

645
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 2: went people would show up with wine in unlabeled jugs.

646
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 2: They just have these glass jugs of you had red

647
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: wine and you had white wine. And it wasn't like,

648
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 2: oh yeah it's this vineyard, this vintage is just a

649
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 2: jug of wine. I don't know where it's from.

650
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, in Trout. One of the many things that's great

651
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: about traveling is of course finding out what if there

652
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 1: is a local drinking tradition, what is it? And if

653
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: there is a local beer or a national beer, what

654
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: is that. Not being a beer enthusiast, they all tend

655
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 1: to kind of taste the same to me, but there's

656
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: something that's kind of kind of fun about traveling to

657
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: a place and then having the national beer of that

658
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 1: particular country.

659
00:36:55,719 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 2: I also remember in Slovenia very fruity type of liqueur

660
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,760
Speaker 2: called sleeveovitz that I think the innkeeper where I stayed

661
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 2: would like give us in the morning.

662
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: That's how you start your dead.

663
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 2: Okay, I got another goat god type figure. So in

664
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 2: pre Christian Basque mythology of the Basque people, there was

665
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 2: a deity known as Mari Mari that was sort of

666
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 2: a queen of the gods, a supreme female deity in

667
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 2: the Basque pantheon, and she would be depicted as like

668
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 2: a you know, flying around and through the air in

669
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 2: a chariot, but also sometimes as riding on a ram well.

670
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 2: According to the Rutledge Dictionary of Gods and Goddesses, devils

671
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 2: and Demons by Manfred Lurker two thousand and five. One

672
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 2: of the representatives for the physical forms representing the power

673
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:06,879
Speaker 2: of the God or the goddess Mari is this figure

674
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:12,320
Speaker 2: called acker Belts, which means black billy goat. He looks

675
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 2: exactly how he sounds. He is a billy goat with

676
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 2: a black coat, and this goat spirit is thought to

677
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 2: be a protector of people's flocks, of their livestock. Lurker

678
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 2: writes quote people who want their animals to do well

679
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 2: turned to him for help. In earlier times, a black

680
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 2: billy goat was kept in the farmsteading to protect the

681
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 2: herd from plague and sickness. In the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries,

682
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 2: he was venerated as a god by witches and wizards.

683
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 2: Sacrifices were made to him, and dance formed part of

684
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 2: the ritual in his honor. So locker Belts is cool.

685
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 2: Acker Belts, we like it seems. This is another example

686
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 2: of a goat, a spiritual goat creature that is not

687
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 2: a demonic at all from what I can tell, except

688
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 2: maybe viewed you know, through like a hostile Christian lens

689
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 2: on the Basque mythology. But within the basque mythology, it

690
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 2: seems like, yeah, this is just a this is a

691
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 2: good thing that protects your flocks.

692
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean flock. The flocks are life. Yeah, this

693
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: is this is something that it really has has also

694
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 1: been a part of all these episodes we've looked at

695
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: this Halloween season regarding domesticated animals. It's like these are

696
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: the lifeblood of the people who raise them, and so

697
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: threats to those those animals, be they real threats or

698
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: perceived threats, or supernatural interpretations of threats. You know, it's

699
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 1: it's it's serious business. Life and death depends upon it.

700
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 2: And this would be by no means the only mythological

701
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 2: or spiritual goat form that is beneficent in nature, that

702
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 2: is sacred or good or holy, or considered so by

703
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 2: the people who believe in it. Not all of the

704
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 2: goat based mythical creatures are are malevolent wild things that

705
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 2: want to want to destroy you.

706
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, this brings us to the sacred goats of China,

707
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: and China we have it in Chinese traditions. We have

708
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: at least one really special goat in the form of

709
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: the zishi, which you might think of as a kind

710
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: of unicorn. I think this is word is often translated

711
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: as unicorn. Of course, if we've discussed on the show

712
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 1: previously in our episodes about unicorns, even in Western traditions,

713
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: there's a lot of drift regarding the unicorns. Sometimes the

714
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: unicorn is more goat like, sometimes it's more horse like,

715
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 1: and it's often used and later in Christian traditions as

716
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: kind of an incarnation of Jesus. So many of these

717
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: traditions the unicorn is both goat like and christ like,

718
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: which is in start contrast to these demonic ideas concerning

719
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: the goat. So that's something that's worth keeping in mind

720
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 1: as we go forward, is that you don't even have

721
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: to remove yourself from Christian traditions in the West to

722
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: find some examples of holy goats. Now with the Xishi here,

723
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:08,760
Speaker 1: it's essentially like a dark, shaggy goat or perhaps an ox. Again,

724
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: we see this kind of drift occur with any of

725
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,439
Speaker 1: these creatures, like does it have the body of a goat?

726
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 1: Does it have the body of an ox? I looked

727
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 1: at various images of statues and depictions, and some of

728
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: them I included a picture here of one for you,

729
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 1: Joe that I think looks very goat like, clearly has

730
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: goat like legs, even if its head is more fantastic.

731
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: But then there's another one that looks very much kind

732
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: of like a bulldog or like a cat, So it

733
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: has a totally different morphology going on, at least to

734
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 1: my non expert eye. But these are noble, divine creatures,

735
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: so again, in that sense, they are more like the

736
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: Western idea of the unicorn.

737
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 2: I'm going to say, at least for these two pictures

738
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,720
Speaker 2: you attached for me, these are good boys. Yeah, yeah,

739
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 2: these are good boys. Who deserves a good scratch now.

740
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: In the Chinese city of Guangzhou there is also the

741
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: legend of the Five Goats. So this is a founding

742
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: myth regarding the five immortals riding to the spot of

743
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: the city's founding and bringing the knowledge of rice cultivation there.

744
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: And when the immortals leave, according to the myth, they

745
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: left their goats behind, and these goats became the stones

746
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: of the Dallas Temple of the five immortals there and

747
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: there is also in the city in Guangzhou there's a

748
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: splendid statue of the five goats atop a hill. In

749
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: this expansive garden in the city which I have visited,

750
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: and I actually marched to the top of this hill

751
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 1: and got to see the statue of the goats. There

752
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: included a picture here for you, Joe. This is not

753
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: my picture that you were looking at. There are a

754
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: lot of images of the goat's statues online, but it's

755
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 1: quite quite splendid. And again at the top of this

756
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 1: hill in this enormous park. Beautiful now as a widely

757
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: domesticated species, we of course find goats in Indian traditions

758
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: as well. In Hinduism, a goat is the vehicle of

759
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: both the fire god Agne and sometimes the vehicle of

760
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: the solar deity Pushan. The Daksha has the head of

761
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 1: a goat following his insult of Shiva and subsequent execution

762
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 1: by the order of Shiva. But then Shiva shows mercy

763
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: and allows Daksha to return to life with the head

764
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: of the first living being he meets. Upon his return

765
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,479
Speaker 1: to life, that animal turns out to be a goat.

766
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 2: So he didn't originally have a goat head, he gets one, Okay,

767
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 2: I see, yeah.

768
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had a more I guess, a human head,

769
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 1: a humanoid ad but then he lost that head because

770
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: he earned himself a beheading. But then the God shows

771
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 1: mercy and says, all right, you can have your life back.

772
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 1: You can have your head back, but it has to

773
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 1: be the first head of the head of the first

774
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: animal you see in the world.

775
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 2: Is this is so he gets to go about with

776
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 2: a goat head? Is this interpreted as a kind of

777
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 2: curse or humiliation in the story or not so much.

778
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: I'm not so sure about that, because you're getting into,

779
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 1: I guess a deeper quest question of how the goat

780
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 1: perceived in India and in Hindu culture. I was reading

781
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: about this particular tale in Nonditha Krishna's Sacred Animals of India,

782
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: and according to this author, the tale is often used

783
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: to justify goat sacrifices, as Daksha was essentially the sacrifice

784
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:25,280
Speaker 1: of Shiva, you know, albeit with a pre goat head,

785
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: and it's you know, execution and sacrifice. Trying to draw

786
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: parallels there, goats are also a sacrifice to the mother goddess,

787
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 1: according to Krishna here and sometimes to Kali as well.

788
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 2: Man there is so much goat lore you could have

789
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 2: an entire Wikipedia style goat database just for goat backstory,

790
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 2: goat lore, goat mythology.

791
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: Internet, goat database. Yeah, yeah, I can see that working.

792
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 1: I mean, there's just a lot of it, and I

793
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 1: think it comes down to know what we've been discussing here.

794
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:56,959
Speaker 1: It's just it has been such a part of human

795
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 1: traditions for so long. We've spent plenty of time watching goats,

796
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,720
Speaker 1: comparing ourselves to goats, comparing our ways to the ways

797
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,720
Speaker 1: of goats, and then out of that all these various

798
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: fanciful ideas emerge. Those ideas then breed with each other

799
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: and we are left with all these interesting traditions of

800
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: the divine, the demonic, and everything in between.

801
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 2: Okay, I think we have to call it for this episode,

802
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 2: just for time, but we've got more goat stuff to

803
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 2: talk about.

804
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 1: That's right. We'll be coming back in the next episode

805
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: with discussions of Egyptian traditions. We'll get into occultism a

806
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 1: little bit, goat intelligence, wars on goats. There's a lot

807
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 1: more to talk about, but certainly in the meantime, feel

808
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 1: free to write into us, particularly if you have experience

809
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 1: with any of the background in any of the traditions

810
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: that we've discussed here and would like to share more

811
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: about them. If you have personal experience with goats, if

812
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: you have lived any part of your life among the goats,

813
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: you probably have insight to share and we would love

814
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: to hear from you. You can catch up on all

815
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 1: our episodes and the Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast

816
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: feed on Tuesdays and Thursdays we have our core episodes.

817
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: On Wednesdays we do a short form artifact or monster fact.

818
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: On Mondays we do listener mail, and on Fridays we

819
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:18,320
Speaker 1: do Weird House Cinema. That's our time to set aside

820
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 1: most serious concerns and just talk about a weird film

821
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: like The Devil Rides Out. So if you want some

822
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 1: more discussion of goat people, I think that may be

823
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,839
Speaker 1: the only goat film we've watched. Perhaps your memories better

824
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 1: than mine, and you can remember another goat that's popped up.

825
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 2: That's the only one come to mind, But I don't know.

826
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,439
Speaker 2: Our back catalog is starting to get kind of long,

827
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 2: So we're finally reaching the point where I am forgetting

828
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: which movies we've covered.

829
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this week's film will be the ninetieth

830
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 1: film that we have looked at on Weird House Cinema.

831
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 2: It's been a wild ride so far. Yeah, but we

832
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 2: have miles to go before we sleep.

833
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: A wild goat ride to nowhere.

834
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth

835
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 2: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch

836
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,399
Speaker 2: with us with feedback on this episode or any other,

837
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 2: to suggest a topic for the future, to shed some

838
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,320
Speaker 2: to shed some light on goats, to share personal experience

839
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 2: about goats, if you are a goat herder yourself, or

840
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 2: if you just want to get in touch and say hi,

841
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 2: any of that's fair game. You can always write us

842
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 2: at contact at Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

843
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio.

844
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

845
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows

846
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: at my fe