1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,479 Speaker 1: Before we begin, please be aware this series contains discussions 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: around infant deaths and other difficult topics. Please take care 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: while listening. 4 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 2: We want to bring you this very urgent breaking news 5 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 2: because the neonatal nurse Lucy let Bee has been found guilty. 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 3: The nurse Lucy let Be has been found guilty of 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 3: murdering seven babies and attempting to murder six others while 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 3: they were in her care at a hospital in Cheshire. 9 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 4: The nurse who should have been in charge of caring 10 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 4: the tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer 11 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 4: in modern British history. 12 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: In August twenty twenty three, Lucy let Be, a young 13 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: neonatal nurse, was convicted in England of murdering seven tiny 14 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: babies and attempting to kill six more. 15 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 5: The case shocked the nation. A year later, she. 16 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: Would be convicted again for the attempted murder of a 17 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: seventh baby. 18 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 5: She's been handed fifteen. 19 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: Life sentences, all without the possibility of parole, meaning as 20 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: this case stands, she will never see the outside of 21 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: a prison again. Case closed, right, well. 22 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 5: Maybe not. 23 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: Lucy Letby's convictions are now being contested. In the nearly 24 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: three years since her conviction. There's been a re examination 25 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: of evidence and an outpouring of revelations, prompting many to 26 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: reevaluate the case for her guilt, not just members of 27 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: the public, but lawyers, politicians, and some of the most 28 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: eminent doctors in the world. Today, this case is like 29 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: an open wound that has divided England, with opposite views 30 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: competing with one another across the media. 31 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 6: This was a cruel, calculated and cynical campaign of child murder, 32 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 6: involving the smallest and most vulnerable of children. 33 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:13,239 Speaker 7: We did not find any murders. 34 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 8: In all cases, death or injury were due to natural causes. 35 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 8: Are just bad medical case. 36 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 5: They can't both be right, can they? 37 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: And yet we are now in a situation where there 38 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: are two parallel worlds. When Lucy let Be was first convicted, 39 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: there were news headlines that flickered and vanished in the US. 40 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: But I couldn't get this story out of my head. 41 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: A young, attractive woman accused of some of the worst 42 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: crimes imaginable, A story the tabloid newspapers fed on with glee, 43 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: A cold, calculating killer, the unexpected face of evil. 44 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 5: I had headlines like that and the. 45 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: Back of my neck prickled for the British media said 46 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: the same things about me, Foxy Noxie, sex lies and 47 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 1: murder killer abroad she devil. My wrongful conviction in Italy 48 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: played out fifteen years prior. That experience taught me a 49 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: lot about how law enforcement can get it wrong, how 50 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: judgment can set in, and how stories can shape and 51 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: obscure the truth. Soon, a steady flow of messages came 52 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: into my inbox, my DMS, friends, journalists, strangers, and the 53 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: refrain was. 54 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 5: You need to look. 55 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: At this one. The evidence doesn't stack up. The more 56 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: I looked into this case, the more clear it was 57 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: to me that inside this complicated story worry the police investigation, 58 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: the ten month long trial one of the longest in 59 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: British history, there were still many unanswered questions. Was Lucy 60 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: let be evil? If not, why did these infants die? 61 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: And how could a justice system and a nation become 62 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,559 Speaker 1: so convinced that they locked away the most prolific child 63 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: killer in British history. I've sat in a cell, condemned 64 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: as a monster, while the world moved on, certain it 65 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: knew the truth, satisfied with easy answers. I'm allergic to 66 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: easy answers. I wanted to understand what had happened in 67 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: this hospital in the north of England, and so I 68 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: started asking questions. I'm Amanda Knox and from Vespucci and 69 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 1: iHeart podcasts. This is Doubt The Case of Lucy let 70 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: Be Episode one. 71 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 5: The verdict. 72 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 2: Pira tucks for a complete betrayal of the trust placed in. 73 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,239 Speaker 3: Her role of Britain's most notorious killers. 74 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 8: She's been found guilty. 75 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 4: Now she has no rights. 76 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 2: She got rid ofosed when she killed people's babies. 77 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: When I first started looking at the media coverage of 78 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: the Lucy let Be case, what struck me wasn't just 79 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: the evidence, it was the narrative. How quickly the headlines 80 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: seemed to agree on who she was and what the 81 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: story meant. That kind of consensus doesn't happen by accident. 82 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: In November nineteen seventy two, two researchers Maxwell McCombs and 83 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: Donald Shaw were studying how people decide what matters. Their 84 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 1: work suggested something powerful that the mass media tells us 85 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: what to think about. That idea became known as agenda 86 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: setting theory. When a story dominates the headlines, it can 87 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: take on a life of its own. And feel impossible 88 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: to challenge. Believe me, I've been trying to undo the 89 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: damage the media did to my reputation for eighteen years 90 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: in counting. August eighteenth, twenty twenty three. This was the 91 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: day Britain stopped the end of the trial of neonatal 92 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: nurse Lucy Lutby in the northern city of Manchester, one 93 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: of the longest in British history, having run for over 94 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: ten months. British and international media, we're waiting for the verdicts. 95 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 9: You've got to have material ready to go all the 96 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 9: TV stations outlets, So when we get the verdicts, whatever 97 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 9: they are, we've got to have news ready to roll. 98 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: Kim Pilling was one of only a handful of reporters 99 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: who had been inside the actual courtroom every day of 100 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: the long drawn out trial. He had to prepare two 101 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: versions of the story, one for guilty, one for innocent, 102 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: two completely different realities, one of which would become the 103 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: accepted truth, the other discarded as a lie. 104 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 8: And maybe breaching magic circle things here. 105 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 9: But to be adult about it, that's the way the world, 106 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 9: because otherwise, which used to happen, you could be waiting 107 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 9: for hours on end for a reaction to two verdicts 108 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 9: and the media pressures now are so great, that's too late. 109 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 8: The one things more instantly. 110 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: A seasoned reporter for the Press Association, Kim has covered 111 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: many trials in England. He understands the weight of a 112 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: lay jury's decision and how it can define a narrative. 113 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 8: Two things was going to happen. 114 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 9: One if she was not guilty, then she, I have 115 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 9: no doubt, would have gone out of that dock and then, 116 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 9: you know, not very long after, and she would have 117 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 9: gone out onto the courtsteps at Manchester Crown and she 118 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 9: would have told the world media that you know, my 119 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 9: life has been destroyed by the Crown Prosecutor Service, Cheshire 120 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 9: place and certain people at the count of Cheship Hospital 121 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 9: who have heaped all the blame this unto me, who 122 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 9: I have never done anything wrong. I've no doubt that 123 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 9: would have happened if she'd have been cleared. If she 124 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 9: was going to be found guilty then and so it followed, 125 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:57,719 Speaker 9: it was going to. 126 00:08:57,679 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 8: Be in the headlines. They were all going to be there. 127 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 9: Angel of death, flat bear, evil lat Bear, montelat BET's 128 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 9: told two completely different realities there. 129 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: When the verdict finally came the alternate reality Kim had 130 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: already drafted. The one where Lucy let be walked free 131 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: was instantly erased. The other version, the one labeled guilty, 132 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: became the only story anyone heard. Within minutes, every major outlet, 133 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:35,319 Speaker 1: from local radio stations to national news outlets to ministers 134 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: in the houses of Parliament, echoed the same headline, this 135 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 1: is what it sounded like. 136 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 6: She's guilty. 137 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 2: The juries found Lucy Let be guilty of murdering seven 138 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 2: babies and attempting to murder another sixth. 139 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: That moment of certainty one narrative takes hold and the 140 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: other vanishes wasn't lost on journalists Clucy De Olivera and 141 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: Rachel Levive, who followed the trial from a distance from 142 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: this side of the Atlantic. 143 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 10: Her conviction was front page news everywhere, absolutely everywhere, and 144 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 10: then subsequently her sendencing a couple of days later. You know, 145 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 10: like this was how many many people first learned about 146 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 10: the case. They learned about that it happened by seeing 147 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 10: the picture of this woman on the front pages, described 148 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 10: as the most evil woman in Britain and the worst 149 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 10: serial killer of babies in modern times. 150 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 7: That was the first impression. 151 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 10: That was what people knew about Lucy Leffie. 152 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 11: I mean it was everywhere. It was in the Daily 153 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 11: Mail for sure. I think I counted more than one 154 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 11: hundred stories about the case in the Guardian. It was 155 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 11: a course sort of national fixation of a level that 156 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 11: felt like, you know, the equivalent of the O. J. 157 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 11: Simpson trial. It was a huge media phenomenon. 158 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: The police, then the law courts and the jury set 159 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: the narrative which was then taken on and reinforced by 160 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: the media. I want to ask what your reaction was 161 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: when you first heard the news about the verdict in 162 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: Lucy's case. 163 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 4: I guess I wasn't that surprised, and if I was 164 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,839 Speaker 4: in the courtroom on that jury, I probably would have 165 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 4: found her guilty. 166 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: A family doctor for twenty years, doctor Phil Hammond is 167 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: a columnist for Private Eye, the much vaunted magazine famous 168 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: for its biting satire, where he writes about medicine under 169 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: the pseudonym MD. 170 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 4: The media had been running with their burn the witch 171 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 4: headlines for a long time. So what's interesting, and again 172 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 4: you will know this from your own experience, is that 173 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 4: they take a quation and they stick it intoverted commas, 174 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 4: evil murdering which deserves to rot in hell or whatever, 175 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 4: and so there'd been a plea endless barrage of that. 176 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: Yep, he's not wrong. The stakes for me almost felt personal. 177 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: Most people had accepted my guilty verdict when it was 178 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: first announced to the world, and now they were doing 179 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: the same for Lucy let Be wholesale. But just as 180 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: in my case, there were a handful of people, just 181 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: a few at first, who weren't convinced, and they started 182 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: to ask questions. It's a horrifying thing to imagine that 183 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: a nurse, someone trusted to care for babies and save 184 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: their lives, could instead deliberately harm them. But in court, 185 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: the prosecution's case was supported by the doctors who worked 186 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 1: with Lucy let Be and the evidence of seven medical experts. 187 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 5: The defense didn't call any. 188 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: Experts to counter that narrative, perhaps because there was no 189 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: hard evidence, a lot of smoke but no fire. As 190 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: it were, no one actually witnessed let Be harming any babies, 191 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: and as my lawyers initially argued, zero plus zero plus 192 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: zero still equals zero. 193 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 5: But that argument didn't work in my first trial. 194 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 4: So there was layer upon layer of gosh, how can 195 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 4: she possibly be innocent amongst all this, So I did write. 196 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 4: My first piece in Private Eye was actually to say, 197 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 4: let be lessons. Why don't we listen to whistleberwers? Isn't 198 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 4: this appalling? Seven experts appeared for the prosecution, none appeared 199 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 4: for the defense, and seven doctors who worked at the 200 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 4: hospital stood up and said we think she's guilty. So 201 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 4: there were fourteen medical experts who said she was guilty. 202 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 4: Not a single doctor or medical expert appeared so purely 203 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 4: on the numbers, you know, as sometimes in a jury, 204 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 4: or baffled by all the science. 205 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 8: And it was complicated. 206 00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 4: But if you think this is fourteen zero, you got 207 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 4: forty experts up here thinks she's guilty, zero speaking out 208 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 4: for Therefore I think on the balance of probability, she's guilty. 209 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: Phil Hammond's logic was the same as most of Britain's. 210 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: Few people would be bold enough to question the testimony 211 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: of so many doctors. 212 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 12: On the day she was convicted, I tweeted, sometimes the 213 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 12: law gets it wrong. 214 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: But to understand how doubt begins, you have to meet 215 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: the people who won't stop asking questions. One of them 216 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: is John Sweeney, a bear of a man, a decorated 217 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: reporter who has directly confronted Vladimir Putin and others, A 218 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: self confessed professional troublemaker. 219 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 12: On the day she was convicted, I was in Ukraine. Well, 220 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 12: I've got a flat jacket a helmet, and I thought, 221 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 12: I I'll tweet this. 222 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 7: I'll put my flatjack at the helmet. 223 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 12: And the first person to call me was my agent, Humphrey, 224 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 12: and he said, put that fucking tweet. 225 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 7: Down now, and I said, no, I'm in Ukraine and 226 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 7: you can't get me. 227 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 5: When we talk. 228 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: It's summer and John is sitting in his retreat, his caravan. 229 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: He has a big mug of tea in his hand, 230 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: his laptop balanced on a low table. John tells stories 231 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: inside stories. Most start with an investigation he's chasing, or 232 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: his beloved Liverpool football club, and they all take the 233 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: long way round, but they usually start or end with 234 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: a fight for justice. He knows my story too, the 235 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: hell that played out in my life in a city 236 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: in central Italy in two thousand. 237 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 12: And nine, by the way, weirdly fast in Peruja, I 238 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 12: heard I heard this. 239 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: As we talk about Italy and his friends there, John 240 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: suddenly leaps up as his neighbor shouts his dog is 241 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: on the loose. 242 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 8: Do oh shit, lo is he gone? 243 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: Then a minute later he appears at the door with 244 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: his sheepish dog. 245 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 7: Sorry, my dog run away, and. 246 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: The conversation picks up exactly where it left off. This 247 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: is John unstoppable, always chasing something, be that a dog 248 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: or a story. 249 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 5: On the day of let. 250 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: Be's conviction, he tweeted out a link to a blog 251 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: post whose author we'll hear from later in this episode, 252 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: and he wrote, this piece by a statistician sets out 253 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: the evidence that Lucy let Be may well be the 254 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: victim of a miscarriage of justice, that the Crown has 255 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: taken a cluster of accidental or natural deaths and pointed 256 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: the finger at let Be. There is no compelling evidence 257 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: of a single murder. The law sometimes gets it wrong. 258 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 7: And I got a ton of abuse. 259 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 12: From that tweet, and so serve my literary agent, my 260 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 12: book agent, Humphrey is a good bloke. So take that 261 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 12: tweet down. You're getting slaughtered. You'll lose your stunning in 262 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 12: the public. And I'm a war reporter. Kind of use 263 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 12: for people shooting at me and being nasty to me. 264 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 12: It's it's kind of what I do for a living. 265 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 12: But it did not feel good being abused, and people 266 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 12: were saying, how dare you? 267 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 8: You're disgusting? What about the children? 268 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: John's tweet set off a firestorm. He was accused of cruelty, 269 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: of disrespecting the victim's families, and worse, because at the 270 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 1: heart of the story are unimaginable losses, brand new lives 271 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: gone too soon, and parents living with pain that words 272 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 1: can't hold. 273 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 5: When a story touches. 274 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: That kind of grief, questioning it becomes taboo. Even asking 275 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: what if can sound like heresy, and so anyone who 276 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: raised doubts about the verdicts was branded a conspiracy theorist. 277 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 4: John delete, I'll follow you, but this is ridiculous and 278 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 4: a gross judgment. 279 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 8: To post today. 280 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 2: Imagine if the bereaf families read this, They've sat through 281 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 2: harrowing evidence of how their child died and came. 282 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 8: Face to face with the person guilty of their murders. 283 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 6: There I like you love the stuff you did from Ukraine, 284 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 6: But my god, what an insensitive bastard posting this on 285 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 6: the day of the burger. 286 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: But John was no stranger to medical murder cases gone wrong. 287 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: In the early odds, he'd been one of just a 288 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: handful of reporters doggedly pursuing answers in the case of 289 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: Sally Clark, a mother convicted of murdering two of her sons. 290 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: The case against Sally Clark was held together by a 291 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: deeply flawed statistical argument, which was picked apart after her conviction. 292 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: When the evidence for one son's murder fell apart, the 293 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: evidence for the other one did too. John's reporting helped 294 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: to eventually overturn Sally's conviction. She was freed, and her 295 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 1: exonerations set off a public reckoning that saw the wrongful 296 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: convictions of other mothers overturned as well. In the summer 297 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three, for John and others, the Lucy 298 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: let Be case felt an awful lot. Like Sally Clark's, 299 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: doubt has a way of spreading. Doctor Phil Hammond initially 300 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: accepted the verdicts, but he would soon shift position after 301 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: he received a letter from a neo natologist who'd been 302 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: lined up to give evidence for Lucy let Bey's defense team. 303 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: For reasons that are still unclear, the expert was never 304 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: called to speak in court. 305 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 4: Professor Michael Hall, who was the most senior neonatology expert 306 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 4: in the whole trial, far more so than the prosecution experts. 307 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 4: He'd retired intoenty eighteen, whereas one prosecution expert had stopped 308 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 4: seeing baby and retired in two thousand and nine, another 309 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 4: had stopped being a top level in the anatologies in 310 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 4: two thousand and eight. So he was the most expert person. 311 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 4: And he wrote to private that great length, and he said, 312 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 4: I read your piece. I think you're wrong. I think 313 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 4: at the very least she had an unfair trial. I 314 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 4: sat through the entire trial. I read all the net records. 315 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 4: I prepared reports on most of the babies. I think 316 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 4: they were sicker than the prosecution portrayed. 317 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 1: The letter was enough to start to change Phil's perspective. 318 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 5: On the case. 319 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: Quietly privately, over the coming months, he began to dig deeper. 320 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 1: In the weeks that followed the verdicts, only one newspaper 321 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: ran a piece countering the established narrative the jury's verdict. 322 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,360 Speaker 1: Veteran British journalist Peter Hutchins wrote in his opinion column 323 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: in the Mail On Sunday newspaper, I wish somebody else 324 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: would ask this, what if Lucy let Be is not guilty, 325 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: and he added, horror can make us blind to doubt. 326 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: When Lucy let Be was convicted, a single version of 327 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: events took hold, the one the public saw on front 328 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: pages and breaking news banners. 329 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 5: But outside that. 330 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: Spotlight, another story was forming, as yet untold, quietly hesitantly 331 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: among journalists, scientists, and people who felt something didn't add up. 332 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: You could call it a split narrative, one dominant and loud, 333 00:21:54,800 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: one almost whispered. While the country absorbed the story of 334 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: the nurse turned monster, a handful of journalists were already 335 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: beginning to look again, to ask if the story everyone 336 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: thought they knew might not be the whole story. 337 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 2: We had a month after the trial where there was 338 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 2: really extensive reporting about the convictions, and the headlines were 339 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 2: very much Britain's worst child serial killer in modern history. 340 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 2: One headline proof there is the devil among us. 341 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: Annook Curry is an investigative journalist and documentary maker who 342 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: started examining the case towards the end of the trial. 343 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 2: There was a very very powerful narrative off the back 344 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: of the convictions, which is understandable in many ways. I 345 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 2: don't think we can underestimate the impact that the media 346 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 2: coverage in the immediate aftermath of the convictions had But 347 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 2: what are I noticed happened was that two of the 348 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 2: consultants who had been instrumental in Lucy let be being 349 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 2: investigated in the first place. They were vocal. One of 350 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 2: them spoke at length to ITV News, another to BBC Panorama, 351 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 2: and they gave their narratives. So the general public believed 352 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 2: that doctors had been screaming and shouting about this nurse 353 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 2: and believed that she had been harming babies, when in 354 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 2: natural fact, the reality when you look at the documentation 355 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 2: is much more nuanced, and that was definitely a narrative 356 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 2: that somehow or other became quite cemented in people's minds. 357 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: The pediatricians who worked on the neonatal unit with Lucy 358 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: ledbe since her convictions had emerged as the heroes of 359 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: this tragedy. The media reported that they had put everything 360 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: on the line to stop her, they said, but were 361 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: thwarted every. 362 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 5: Step of the way. 363 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: You can hear the toll this took on one of 364 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: the doctors, doctor Robb Jayram, in an interview he gave 365 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: to ITV News in twenty twenty three. 366 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 13: The families and the police have both said to us 367 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 13: that they consider you to be a hero. Do you 368 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 13: think the enormity of the part you played in all 369 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 13: of this has sunk Kenya. 370 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 14: I'm not here, I pull. 371 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 8: I was just doing my job. 372 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: Just over a month after this interview from September twenty 373 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: twenty three, everything went silent. The police and Crown Prosecution 374 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 1: Service or CPS as it's known in the UK, decided 375 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 1: to retry Lucy Ledby for one count of attempted murder 376 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 1: that the jury had failed to reach a decision on 377 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: in the first trial, and in the UK, if a 378 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: trial is pending, all reporting is banned. The idea is 379 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: to prevent anything being published that might prejudice the case. 380 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: But given that a narrative of guilt had already firmly 381 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: taken hold, the press blackout served to silence the emerging 382 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: voices of investigative journalists who were concerned about the safety 383 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: of Letb's convictions. 384 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 2: Then you have a long pause where nothing can be challenged. 385 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 2: And I think that was really unusual, and that was 386 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 2: because of the reporting restrictions that were in place. Because 387 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 2: the Ground Prosecution Service decided that they would retry Lucy 388 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 2: let Be on one count it meant that there was 389 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,479 Speaker 2: one narrative been put out there after the trial, and 390 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 2: then there was avoid. 391 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: Anook and others had started to connect with experts in 392 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: the fields of science and medicine who were using social 393 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: media to raise concerns about the safety of convictions. Unable 394 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: to report, they continued to work on the case quietly 395 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: behind the scenes. 396 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 2: What people would do was to engage with journalists that 397 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 2: they trusted and talk to them and that's what went on. 398 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 8: And it wasn't just me. 399 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 2: There were other people like Felicity Lawrence at The Guardian 400 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 2: and later Sarah Napton at the Daily Telegraph, John Sweeney 401 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 2: who's known for his coverage of these kind of cases, 402 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 2: and so it was an unusual experience as a journalist 403 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 2: where you were gathering information quietly and following as things evolved. 404 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 2: And it started with a few experts who had concerns 405 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 2: and then. 406 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: Snowboard writers, scientists and doctors based outside of the UK 407 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: were able to publish and share their opinions and analysis 408 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: safely online being out side of UK jurisdiction. Despite the 409 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: UK restrictions, there was plenty of debate on social media 410 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 1: where people took risks, some bloggers tried to protect themselves 411 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: using international domains. A number of these people reached out 412 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: to me here in the US saying they thought the 413 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: let Be case had echoes of my own. I recorded 414 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: some of these early conversations as I became increasingly aware 415 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,959 Speaker 1: that there was more to this case than most people 416 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: realized that the developments would be worth charting. 417 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 15: I'm interestate position, and I'm not a journalist. 418 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 7: I'm just a blogger. 419 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 15: Hmm. 420 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 1: Remember John Sweeney, the Journalists and the Helmet and flack jacket, 421 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: who tweeted on the day of Lucy Letbe's conviction. Well, 422 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: when he tweeted, he shared the blog of a statistician 423 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,479 Speaker 1: called Peter Elston, who would be come consumed by the 424 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: case during the trial. Here he is talking to me 425 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 1: back in February twenty twenty four. 426 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 15: And until very recently, I was just a boring old 427 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 15: fund manager who had a bit of an amateur interest 428 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 15: in the justice system and miscarriages of justice. And then 429 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 15: because of my blog I'd written about well, up until 430 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 15: the verdicts were announced, I've probably written about ten pieces 431 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 15: about the Lucy Letbe case. And then when the verdicts 432 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 15: were announced, all of a sudden, the traffic to my 433 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 15: blog just rocketed. 434 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: Peter was concerned that a young nurse was in prison 435 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: for life for crimes she didn't commit. His blog became 436 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: a refuge for others who had doubt, Others who had 437 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: followed the case and felt something about it all didn't 438 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: add up, and they wanted somewhere anywhere to talk about. 439 00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 15: It because obviously a lot of people who were quite 440 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 15: shocked by the verdicts, and the mainstream media were report 441 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 15: saying that Lucy was a serial killer. To get an 442 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 15: alternative view, you've had to look outside of that, and 443 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 15: my blog with a place where people could get a 444 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 15: slightly alternative view of these. 445 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: And numerous people have reached out to me about this 446 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: case because they said that it reminded them of what 447 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: happened to me. What similarities you see between this case 448 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: and what I went through, Well. 449 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 15: You're talking about scapegating. It seems to be systemic within 450 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 15: the NHS that there is this very toxic culture of 451 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 15: scapegoating that has emerged in recent decades. But yeah, it's 452 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 15: certainly something that I've heard quite a lot about. 453 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: The NHS is the UK's national health service, funded by 454 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: the taxpayer. And free for all. You're likely to hear 455 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: it reference to throughout this series. In recent years, it's 456 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: been roundly criticized. What about the media's involvement in this case? 457 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: How has that impacted it at all? 458 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 15: There was no reporting by the mainstream of an alternative hypothesis, 459 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 15: namely that Lucy wasn't a serial killer, and I suppose 460 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 15: if you think about that from the media's perspective, we're 461 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 15: now in a situation where I know there are very 462 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 15: serious journalists out there who are absolutely convinced that Lucy 463 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 15: is not a serial killer, and they're champing at the 464 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 15: bit to write the story about the miscarriage. The British journalists, 465 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 15: who I'm particularly in touch with, they can't write the 466 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 15: story because of the reporting restrictions. 467 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: In the silence that followed, something unexpected happened. Yes, the 468 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: loudest voices went quiet, but the smaller, quieter ones found 469 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: each other. If agenda setting is about who controls the 470 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: storytelling spotlight, what was happening now was the opposite, a 471 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: story growing in the dark. So thank you so much 472 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: for reaching out about this case. You are one of 473 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: many people who have reached out to me. By autumn 474 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, another key voice was saying what many 475 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: were afraid to say. Richard Gill, a retired professor of statistics. 476 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: Richard is British but moved to the Netherlands decades ago 477 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: after falling in love with a Dutch girl. It occurs 478 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: to me, is that just a coincidence or is this 479 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: a coordinated effort among advocates to reach out to people 480 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: who might be. 481 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 14: In It's not coordinated, but advocates do have contact with 482 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 14: one another. And I'm like the spider in the middle 483 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 14: of the spiders, were people come to me and I 484 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 14: connect them. 485 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 5: To all the excellent. 486 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: Richard was one of the first to publicly question the 487 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: evidence tweeting, writing, connecting experts across continents. 488 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 5: Back in twenty twenty three. 489 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: In the UK, many who shared his doubts stayed hidden 490 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: in private Facebook groups. They were nurses, people afraid to speak, 491 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: afraid to be seen as defending a baby killer. 492 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 14: I'm a member of a couple of closed Facebook groups, 493 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,959 Speaker 14: bigger one of eighty or so people in a smaller 494 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 14: one of twenty, and many of them are nurses, and 495 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 14: many of them are people who have quite close in 496 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 14: sight into what goes on there. One of them is 497 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 14: a former police inspector. And these people do not dare 498 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 14: to come out in public. They are carefully, sort of 499 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 14: one by one talking to their best friends, and they're 500 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 14: very happy when one of their best friends agrees to sort. 501 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 7: Of listen to them for a little while. 502 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 14: But yes, the tabloid media and social media have created 503 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 14: an atmosphere where people do not dare to say that 504 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 14: they think that Lucy let Me is innocent. Now I'm 505 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 14: sort of famous, and I stand up and say that, 506 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 14: and lots of people email me that they are so 507 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 14: grateful that somebody else is saying this out loud. And 508 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 14: they tell me all kinds of things, and they tell 509 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 14: me really interesting things. They find out things, and I 510 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 14: put them onto Twitter. And I do think that the 511 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 14: atmosphere is slowly, slowly, slowly, but it's very very slow. 512 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: In that silence, a second story began to take shape, 513 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:14,720 Speaker 1: one built quietly in emails enclosed forums in midnight Phone 514 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: calls the story of a health system under strain and 515 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 1: a woman at its center, a story we will hear 516 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: much more about in future episodes. It's been two and 517 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: a half years since the trial of Lucy let be ended, 518 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:37,720 Speaker 1: she has exhausted her appeals. She remains in prison, Yet 519 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: her case never became yesterday's news. It's as fresh today 520 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 1: as it was on the day Judge Goss, choking back tears, 521 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 1: described the violent acts Lucy let Be had been found 522 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: guilty of inflicting on the babies. Let Be still dominates 523 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,359 Speaker 1: headlines and will continue to do so for who knows 524 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: how long. The discourse around her now couldn't be more 525 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: different than the one that greeted her verdict. Gone is 526 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: the mainstream certainty that this is a story about a 527 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 1: serial killer brought to justice, and its stead is an 528 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 1: all out war fought in the public square between two 529 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: sides that can't agree on a shared version of reality. 530 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 1: On one police, the prosecution experts, and the grieving families 531 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,879 Speaker 1: pleading with the public to accept her guilt. On the other, 532 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 1: an ever growing number of prominent voices, among them some 533 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,879 Speaker 1: of the most eminent doctors in the world, shouting from 534 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: the rooftops that the evidence doesn't add up, that there 535 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 1: were probably never any murders at all. 536 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 5: Over the course of this. 537 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: Series, we won't just be cutting through the tangle that 538 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: has sprung up around this case. We'll be hearing from 539 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: people directly involved in it, and will be uncovering vital 540 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: evidence that has never been made public before, not even 541 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,760 Speaker 1: to the jurors who convicted Lucy Letpee. 542 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 5: And if we want to. 543 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 1: Understand what happened inside the UK hospital where a nurse 544 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: was accused and babies died, we have to go there. 545 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: Next time, we go back to the start of this story, 546 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: to twenty fifteen, to the neonatal unit at the Countess 547 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 1: of Chester Hospital where too many babies were dying and 548 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: the fingers of two doctors began to point at one 549 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: young nurse. In later interviews broadcast on ITV and BBC, 550 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,359 Speaker 1: they would describe the moment their suspicions turned toward one 551 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: of their own staff nurses. 552 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 8: Could she be doing something deliberate? Oh no, it can't be, Lucy, 553 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 8: Look nice, Lucy. 554 00:36:53,640 --> 00:37:06,280 Speaker 1: That's next on Doubt The Case of Lucy let Bee. 555 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 1: Doubt the Case of Lucy let Be is brought to 556 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:15,919 Speaker 1: you by Vespucci, iHeart Podcasts and Knox Robinson Productions. I've 557 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:20,360 Speaker 1: been your host, Amanda Knox. The co producers were Joe 558 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: Meek and Lucy Ditchmont. The assisted producers Reclusy de OLIVERA 559 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: and Lammy Gill. Senior producer and production manager was Natalia Rodriguez. 560 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: This episode was written by Joe Meek with help from 561 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: a Knook Curry audio mix by Tom Biddle. The theme 562 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: music was written by Tom Biddle, story editing by Kathleen Goldhar. 563 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: Legal advice was provided by Jack Browning. The producers at 564 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:53,320 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts are Chandler Mays and Katrina Norville. The executive 565 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: producers were Joe Meek, Amanda Knox, Christopher Robinson, Daniel Turkin, 566 00:37:58,480 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: and Johnny Galvin. 567 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:01,280 Speaker 5: Thank you for listening.