WEBVTT - And, This Is Dr. Sanjay Gupta 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:13.920 This is Gavin Newsom. This is doctor Sanjay Gupta. 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:17.040 Sanja. 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.200 It's great to have you. I appreciate the opportunity because 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:24.079 I look, all of us are reflecting on whether this is, 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:26.400 as it feels to many of us, one of the 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:31.920 most sort of challenging and profoundly consequential moments with health 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:36.720 care policy in our lifetime, or perhaps putting it more perspective, 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:40.080 more historically, even thinking back a little bit to Obamacare 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:42.440 and their debates and the sort of fundamental shifts in 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:44.760 health policy we're taking shape there. So I thought i'd 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:48.040 just opened up just ask you about the landscape, ask 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:52.360 you about your perspective, particularly from the prism of not 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:55.240 just a policy expert and a pundit, but also as 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.760 a practitioner. What world are we living in as it 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:01.120 relates to healthcare policy in the United States today? 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.840 Well, you know, broadly speaking, I think one of the 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:08.080 and we've been talking thinking about this a lot, is 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:12.040 sort of what is the United States role when it 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:17.280 comes to science, healthcare, science, public health, all of that. 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:18.320 I think for. 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:22.360 Eighty some years we were sort of the world leader, 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:25.399 sort of post World War Two. That became part of 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:27.720 our DNA and the United States and take great pride 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:29.880 in and we recruit the best scientists in the world. 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.560 Some of the greatest scientific achievements over the last century 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:36.959 have come from the United States, and I think it's 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:40.480 been something that certainly people in the scientific community, but 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.880 I think the population at large really have rallied behind, 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:47.200 taken great pride in people coming from other countries for 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.640 our medical care, new therapies coming out of the United States, 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:51.120 all of that. 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:54.360 And I think one of the and. 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:56.720 I don't want to overstate this, but I think one 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.360 of the worrisome things right now is. 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:00.160 Is that still the case? 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.560 Do we still think that that's important? Kind of like 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:06.440 maybe how we talked about My parents both worked in 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:08.839 the auto industry, and I think there was a time 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:11.240 period where people said, should we still be building. 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:12.120 Cars in the United States? 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:15.160 And my parents both ended up leaving the auto industry 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:17.480 in two thousand and one because they were fearful that 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:20.000 the industry was just going to change. It did not 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:22.920 got bailed out, as you know, and all these things happened, 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:25.760 and here we are today. I think it sort of 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.800 feels this has some of those same tones as that 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.320 are we going to look back twenty years from now 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:34.520 and say the United States is still the global leader 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:37.000 when it comes to these things. That's the thing that 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:41.639 I worry about, sort of philosophically, sort of more practically speaking. 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:45.239 Governor's something you talk about a lot as well. We're 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:48.240 not a healthy country. We spend four and a half 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:51.640 trillion dollars on healthcare. We don't have a lot to 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:54.400 show for it in terms of outcomes, in terms of 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.799 overall health. I think we saw that ripped off like 0:02:57.840 --> 0:02:59.960 a band aid during the pandemic. People say, how can 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.000 a country that spends that kind of money do so 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:05.400 poorly with regard to patient outcomes. We walked in pretty 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:08.600 unhealthy into that situation. So I think some of that 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:13.840 needs to change. And frankly, most of that problem, I 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:16.800 think is in how we nourish ourselves, you know, the 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:19.280 foods that we put into our body, the chemicals that 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:22.639 we ingest. It's a problem. It's part of the reason 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:25.120 I got into medical journalism in the first place. That 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:27.320 needs to change, and people have been saying that for 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:27.960 a long time. 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:32.040 You talk about it in California. First Lady Obama used 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:32.800 to talk about that. 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:36.520 You know, Michael Bloomberg talked about that when as Mayor 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:39.920 of New York, so it's not a new discussion, but 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:41.400 I think it's one that needs to be had. 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:44.080 So I want to get to both subjects cause I 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:47.680 think it's interesting as you start with the larger issue 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:49.720 as some of us and I'm not putting words in 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.320 your mouth, but there's sort of this war on knowledge 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:56.680 more broadly speaking, and certainly scientific expression is part of that, 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:01.560 this notion of just confidence in trans parency, truth trust. 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:05.520 We can get to missing disinformation and how that debate 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:09.600 plays out differently through the lens ideological lens on both 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:13.880 sides of the political prism. But the interesting thing I 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:16.560 think you underscored is just this trend line that's been 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:19.800 decades and decades. It's i think growing headline in some 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:22.680 ways because of this Maha movement. And I think if 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:27.160 there's one sort of reckoning, it's a recognition with RFK Junior, 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.680 and we can get to the more controversial aspects of it. 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:32.880 But this whole Maha movement is interesting to me. You 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:36.520 brought up Obama first, Ladya Michelle Obama in the Let's 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:40.240 Move campaign, her focus on issues of a chronic disease 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:44.560 obesity school lunches, which was exceptional at the time, and 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:47.839 I was exceptionally engaged in that campaign. I think it 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.560 was a twenty ten ish plus or minus. But where 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:53.400 are you in this Maha movement. Do you think it's 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:55.960 a breakthrough in terms of consciousness, on a wellness frame, 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:58.960 on a focus on some of these broader issues that 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:02.000 are been under resourced in terms of time and attention. 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:05.120 That's a good question. I do think a lot more 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:06.280 people are talking about this. 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:07.000 You know. 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:12.760 I wish it didn't require, you know, sort of really 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:16.360 demeaning certain populations of people to do it, But there's 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:19.039 no question it has struck a nerve and I hear 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:23.040 people talking about it from circles that I had not 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:25.720 heard people talking about this before, just in terms of 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:28.240 really wanting to have some autonomy over their own health. 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:30.520 So there's a lot of kernels of truth, I think 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:34.560 to what is happening out of the Maha movement, it is. 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:38.960 It is I think largely based on precautionary principle, which 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:40.960 we can talk about more because I think there's other 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:43.520 aspects of what is happening in healthcare that are the 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:47.719 opposite of precautionary principle. This demand for more evidence and 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:51.800 replication of evidence. And it's not just be careful, it's 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:54.760 let's prove this to the nth degree before we make 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:58.480 any movements. But with regard to ultra process foods, with 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:02.480 regard to petroleum based die some of these petroleum based dies, 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:06.480 Governor should have probably never been approved no nutritional value. 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:09.880 They were purely aesthetic. There's many countries around the world 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:13.120 that don't have them. These food manufacturers can clearly make 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:14.320 these products without them. 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:15.960 I have kids. 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:19.560 I've worried about this for a long time, so people 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:21.440 have been talking about it, but no one got it done. 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:24.160 You did in California, and now it's starting to happen, 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:25.440 I think more to national level. 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:28.320 You know, it's interesting so jays know some of the 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:30.479 things we let on. I appreciate you highlighting. I mean, 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:32.719 and this has been a passion project for me, going 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:35.440 back to my mayor days when you referenced Mayor Bloomberg 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:38.080 and I were very competitive in this space as mayor's 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:42.240 He with a much larger platform in New York, I 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.800 with a little smaller platform in San Francisco. But I've 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.560 deeply been committed as you have in terms of all 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:51.719 your work focusing not on sick care, but healthcare, focusing 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:56.039 on social determinants of health, which we'll talk about in 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.560 a moment, and wellness and prevention. But one of the 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:01.800 things that is really you know, came to the four 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:04.360 with me through a political ends was this notion of 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.239 ultra processed food, but specifically as it relates to food dies. 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:10.640 And we did something that was referred to on the 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.560 far right which was the Great Irony and mocked. I mean, 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:16.640 I can't tell you how many with respect to another 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:21.800 news network there three news network mocked consistently called the 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:25.240 Skittles band because we were moving red dye and we 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.040 were the first state to do that. Now it seems 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:32.120 to be socialized in the political spectrum on the right 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:37.080 as sort of you know, endowed leadership from the MAHA movement. 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:41.240 But what was the movement towards all this? I mean, 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:44.880 it's it's it's there's chemical chemicals aside, but additives. There's 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:47.080 sort of obsession. Is it just it was a taste? 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:51.480 Was a texture that we were after? Was it longevity? Freshness? 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.360 Why the US not the EU? What was it? What 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:59.280 is unique about the United States that we became overly 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:01.520 indulgent in these additives and chemicals. 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:04.920 I think it's more than more than one thing, but 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:06.160 I do think a lot of it had to do 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:11.120 with longevity, initially increasing shelf life of food, and that 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:14.080 really got it a lot of additives, even going back 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:18.600 to hydrogenated corn syrup versus sugar. You know, when you're 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:20.920 adding these types of things in there, you're not only 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:25.360 adding sweetness to some extent, but you're adding how moist 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:27.240 the food is and how long it's going to last 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:30.960 on a shelf. I think, trying to remember, you know, 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:33.360 former President Clinton used to talk about this. You can 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:36.560 feed a lot of people a lot of calories for 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:40.120 cheap if you're having these ultra processed foods. You know, 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:43.400 if you have family at McDonald's for twenty five bucks, 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:45.959 you know if you have ultra processed foods. 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:46.640 So I think it. 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:49.559 You know, if you increase shelf life, you can decrease costs. 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:53.040 I do think the aesthetics of the food is not 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:56.520 an issue to be minimized, though it's very I don't 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:58.120 know if you heard the story about what happened with 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:00.480 fruit loops. I think back about a life years ago, 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:05.040 twenty fourteen timeframe, where you know, they basically said, all right, 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:07.760 let's remove some of these food dies. There was a 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:10.959 lot of pressure to remove the food dyes, and the 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:13.920 root loops as a result, were not as brightly colored. 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:15.120 They were kind of bland color. 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:17.880 If you go to Europe and go to a hotel 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:19.760 or something, you go to the breakfast buffet and you 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:22.439 get fruit loops, they're bland colored fruit loops. They're the 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:24.959 same fruit loops otherwise, but they just don't look the same. 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:27.600 And what they found when they did that in the 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.760 United States was two things. One is that people didn't 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:34.520 buy those blandly colored fruit loops, and two is they 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:36.360 kind of got accused of the same thing that you 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.000 were talking about, sort of nanny state, don't take away 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.200 our brightly colored fruit loops, same thing that Mayor Bloomberg 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:45.120 got accused of when he wanted to not sell sixteen 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:50.360 out sodas anymore any state. And so it's really it's interesting, Governor, 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:56.560 this balance between personal freedom and health. And what is 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:00.360 interesting is that you can be sort of thinking the 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:03.440 same thing and approach that in two completely different ways. 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.320 One hand, I'm going to do precautionary principle. We're not 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.200 going to have food dies doesn't make sense, no nutritional value. 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.439 Why would we do that? I kind of agree with that. Again, 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:15.880 as a health conscious person myself, I like to eat right, 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:17.960 I like to exercise every day. Why would I do 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:19.240 something like that to my body? 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:21.959 On the other hand, what is the level. 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:25.199 Of evidence you need to have before making a decision? 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:27.880 Prove to me that red dye number three is bad? 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:30.320 Prove it. Maybe some will say, why do you need 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:31.559 to prove it causes. 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:33.360 Cancer and animals and we should have never approved it 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:35.800 in any ways, But what is the level of evidence? 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:39.079 And that's going to extend, I think beyond food and 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:43.280 additives to vaccines and therapeutics and other things. I think 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:44.559 that's going to be the crux of the. 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:48.000 Issue, and it's important on the precautionary frame and the 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:51.040 precautionary principle. I mean, I think that's fundamentally, isn't it 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:54.120 The difference between the EU policy where so many of 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.000 these foods just simply never make the shelf, and fundamental 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:00.000 policy that's advanced in the United States. 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:03.160 That is exactly your friend, I think Todd Wagner, who's 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:05.240 a friend of mine as well, he talks about this 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:08.600 a lot. He started this organization food Fight, and you know, 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:10.880 when I spend time talking to these folks and reporting 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:13.280 on this, people will always say the same thing, which is, 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:17.480 I go to Europe, I hate the same foods, pasta. 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.239 I do whatever, and I feel great. 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:23.080 Great, I lose weight. I all that. Now, some of 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.120 that may be that you're you're active more over there 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:29.280 as well. There could be other things, but I think 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.319 there's something definitely to that. 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:35.280 And that I think that so it's it's a little bit. 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:38.120 More than precautionary principle. You have these large cohorts of 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:42.560 the population that say, I have lived in both those worlds, 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:44.560 I've eaten both these foods, and I can feel the 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:45.760 difference in my own body. 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:46.920 I think you can't. 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:50.200 You can't ignore that, again with the backdrop that those 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:54.880 petroleum based eyes don't have any nutritional value, not losing 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:58.400 anything by stripping them out other than aesthetics, which. 0:11:58.200 --> 0:11:59.960 You know, maybe may be important. 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.280 People people do like their brightly colored fruit loops. As 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:02.800 it turns out. 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:11.480 So you talk about you're talking in the terms of 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.839 precautionary principles, sort of the the two ends of this, 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:17.320 and you reference the issue of vaccines. Is that a 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:21.600 reference to m r NA vaccines? Is that in what 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:25.160 respect is a precautionary principle sort of the one hundred 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:29.040 and eighty degree uh flip side of that principle being 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:31.640 abused in terms of or is it just moreover on 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:34.240 what more evidence do you need of something being bad 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:36.120 or good? Is it the same thing? 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:40.400 Yeah, I think it's I think it's a m RNA vaccines, 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:44.000 but but but more widely, I think it's vaccines in general. 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.680 And I think it's maybe even the response to things 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:51.600 like a pandemic. You know, when you're dealing with something 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:55.440 that is novel. I mean, by the way, uh, you know, 0:12:55.520 --> 0:13:00.640 COVID was a novel disease. We had never experienced it before. 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:03.480 And I know people said said that a lot novel virus. 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:05.000 You heard that a lot. But I mean, if you 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:08.040 really sit and think about that, it's kind of extraordinary. 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:08.920 I mean, as an. 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:13.240 Adult, we don't get to experience novel things very often. 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.360 Kids experience novel things all the time. But when is 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:20.080 the last time you governor experienced something for the first time. 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.880 Doesn't happen very often. So now you're dealing with something 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.400 that is novel and you have to say, okay, look, 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:29.439 our response isn't going to be exactly right. 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:30.640 Nothing's exactly right. 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:33.560 Where are we going to tilt? What side we're going 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:35.720 to err on? Are we going to air on precautionary 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:38.079 principle or going to are we going to err on 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.320 the side of let's sort of see how things go 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:42.560 and you know, figure it out as we go along. 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:46.760 And I think, you know, public health, the the training 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:49.840 often is to to sort of side with precautionary principle. 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:52.480 It's like, let's be careful as we sort of sort 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:54.880 this out, how is this virus behaving? Who's it affecting? 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:57.600 So I think MR and A vaccines were part of that. 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:01.920 I mean, people, I think understandably would say, we need 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:07.640 long term data on these things before we start releasing them. 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:09.840 I think that's a really fair sort of thing to say. 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:12.360 But you realize that in the middle of a pandemic 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.560 to get long term data means you have to wait 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:18.079 long term or are you're going to wait five years, ten years? 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:20.440 What does long term mean? You know, if it's for 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.160 a kid, is it eighty years? What does it mean 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:23.760 in terms. 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.280 Of how long you're willing to wait? What struck me. 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:30.240 And again, this is finding the balance between precautionary principle 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:34.880 and evidence. Is that we knew that for vaccines, the 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:37.240 vast majority of the time, greater than ninety percent of 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.840 the time of side effects were to occur, they would 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:43.120 occur within the first sixty eight days. That was the number, 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:46.360 so just over two months. So then the idea that 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:49.240 the FDA would say, well, let's wait three months, let's 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.200 just let's try and cover as many possible side effects 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:54.120 that have come from this as possible before we give 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:58.960 emergency use authorization. Is that is an example I think 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:01.480 of policy that you have to sort of think about 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.440 in the throes of something like this. It is still 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:08.160 precautionary because we don't know the long term data. On 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:10.360 the other hand, you're using the best evidence that we 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:12.520 do have in terms of what history has taught us. 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:16.000 And I think, you know, I know it's been a 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:18.640 sort of cluster since that, but I think at the 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.320 time to me as a reporter, a medical reporter, and 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:25.920 as a doctor, but also as a dad, that made sense. 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:28.200 Yeah, the side effects are going to occur. 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.760 They usually occur within two and a half months. Let's 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:33.480 keep a close eye on this thing, watch it like 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:37.840 a hawk, wait even longer than that, and at that point, 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:40.560 if things look good, then I go ahead and provide 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:41.480 an EUA for it. 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:45.560 I mean, it's interesting it continues to this day. I mean, 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:48.280 obviously at the state level, when we saw the Surgeon 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:54.280 General of Florida come out and recommend against m mRNA vaccines. 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:58.960 Obviously the President is spoken from every side on this issue. 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:02.040 I mean, considering you, through Operation warp Speed was the 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:06.400 one advancing the platform and the technology. But obviously the 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.960 new Health and Human Service Secretary has been very critical 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.880 and has been prone arguably to some sort of wild 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:19.640 eyed theories around DNA issues related to the the RMA 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:24.640 m RNA vaccine and concerns around DNA concerns obviously around 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:28.400 its safety, uh and and in the side effects. What 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:31.040 what's where are you now in terms of just your concerns. 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:33.920 Our m RNA is not just for COVID vaccine, right, 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.560 It's also used for other vaccines. 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:40.960 Use for other vaccines, and use for other therapies entirely, 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:44.600 including cancer therapies right their clinical trials now trying to 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:48.360 use these types of platforms m r and A platforms 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:52.360 for very difficult to treat cancers, including pancreative cancer, which 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.960 we don't have great, great answers for. You know, I 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:59.000 think I'm I think I'm pretty practical on this. I 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:02.120 think where we are now in twenty twenty five versus 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:05.960 certainly when these vaccines got approved were in a different place, 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:10.360 meaning that even though the uptake of vaccines has gone 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:14.040 way down, most people did get the initial series of vaccines, 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:18.040 and we know that they can, especially for young people, 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:22.119 they can provide more durable relief. There hasn't, you know, 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:26.199 after the initial what they call ancestral strains of COVID 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:27.119 before omicron. 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:29.600 I think these still provide pretty good. 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:34.040 Protection, especially for young people whose immune systems really respond 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:39.400 to them. So I still think, you know, I said 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:41.480 this before. I think this was one of the great 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:46.760 scientific achievements of my time as as a human being. 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.320 I think, you know, when textbooks are written about scientific achievements, 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:53.240 the idea that they were able to create a vaccine 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:56.720 essentially in nine months and be able to you know, 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:57.760 protect so many people. 0:17:57.760 --> 0:17:59.240 There's a lot of people who think they don't work. 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:00.200 They do work. 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:03.439 I mean, if you looked at the data California or 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.040 the country as a whole. Who was in the hospital 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.919 during the huge sort of swings and COVID It was 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:13.040 primarily people who were not vaccinated, so it was helping 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:17.240 protect against illness and death. What I think was unfortunate, Frankly, 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:20.840 and this was a communications problem, was that they seemed 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:23.800 to also intimate that it would protect you from getting 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:28.040 COVID at all, from carrying it, and there was not 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:31.880 great evidence behind that, And you know, we reported as 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:35.600 such that you don't have great evidence that shows that 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.640 when you have a vaccine that's protecting against illness, it's 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:42.720 usually protecting in your lower respiratory and your lungs, so 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:46.080 you're not getting that really really sort of a deep illness, 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:49.320 but you might still have it in your mucosa, in 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:51.800 your mouth and your nose, in your upper airway, so 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:54.160 you could potentially still be carrying it and still potentially 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.919 spread it. That wasn't I think a communications error, and 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:00.320 I think, Frankly, Governor, I think it led to a 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.520 lot of distrust overall of these MR and A vaccines. 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:05.919 You said, you said I couldn't get COVID if I 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:08.159 got this, Well I got COVID and I spread it. 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:10.280 So what is this is a vaccine or is it 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.960 not a vaccine that was that was a problem? 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:19.119 And do you I mean, are we being oversensitive hyperbolic 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:22.199 as it relates to how now this is manifested with 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.560 the new recommendations that for pregnant women and for children 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.159 they shouldn't even be getting these boosters on COVID or 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:31.320 is that overstated or is that a more targeted approach? 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.640 Do you think it's rational? We can talk about how 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:38.560 that was done without the CDC an advisory committee that 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:44.000 usually advises in terms of recommendation, but the outcome ultimately 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:46.040 of that decision. Where are you on that? 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:47.040 Yeah? 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:48.680 I mean, first of all, you know, with regard to 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:52.159 the CDC and expertise, I mean, you know, it amazed 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.280 me when I watch people like Tom Frieden during Ebola 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:58.520 or Richard Besser during H one n one do their 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:02.040 briefings in front of the CDC, and they would say, 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:06.560 behind us, we have four thousand of these smartest, most 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:08.680 hard working scientists in the world. 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:10.800 They are so good that other. 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:14.600 Infectious to these organizations, and other countries model their organizations 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.680 after us, even calling their organizations the CDC. 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:21.680 I mean, that was a source of great pride. 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:24.800 I think for people in the public health world, myself included, 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:28.359 I think where I am now at this point in 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:31.760 twenty twenty five is, first of all, I think what 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:37.520 Sexuary Kennedy has said versus what is reality is different. 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:40.840 There's daylight between those two things. So he basically said 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:46.359 no more boosters for kids, basically no more shots. Even 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:48.880 now on the CDC's website, that's not what it says. 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:52.800 It says it should be a shared clinical decision between 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:56.560 patient and provider. So for kids, I think that makes sense. 0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:00.600 I mean, if your kid has asthma, do you want 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:03.199