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Speaker 1: This is Gavin Newsom. This is doctor Sanjay Gupta.

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Speaker 2: Sanja.

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Speaker 1: It's great to have you. I appreciate the opportunity because

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Speaker 1: I look, all of us are reflecting on whether this is,

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Speaker 1: as it feels to many of us, one of the

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Speaker 1: most sort of challenging and profoundly consequential moments with health

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Speaker 1: care policy in our lifetime, or perhaps putting it more perspective,

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Speaker 1: more historically, even thinking back a little bit to Obamacare

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Speaker 1: and their debates and the sort of fundamental shifts in

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Speaker 1: health policy we're taking shape there. So I thought i'd

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Speaker 1: just opened up just ask you about the landscape, ask

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Speaker 1: you about your perspective, particularly from the prism of not

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Speaker 1: just a policy expert and a pundit, but also as

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Speaker 1: a practitioner. What world are we living in as it

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Speaker 1: relates to healthcare policy in the United States today?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, broadly speaking, I think one of the

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Speaker 3: and we've been talking thinking about this a lot, is

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Speaker 3: sort of what is the United States role when it

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Speaker 3: comes to science, healthcare, science, public health, all of that.

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Speaker 2: I think for.

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Speaker 3: Eighty some years we were sort of the world leader,

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Speaker 3: sort of post World War Two. That became part of

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Speaker 3: our DNA and the United States and take great pride

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Speaker 3: in and we recruit the best scientists in the world.

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Speaker 3: Some of the greatest scientific achievements over the last century

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Speaker 3: have come from the United States, and I think it's

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Speaker 3: been something that certainly people in the scientific community, but

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Speaker 3: I think the population at large really have rallied behind,

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Speaker 3: taken great pride in people coming from other countries for

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Speaker 3: our medical care, new therapies coming out of the United States,

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Speaker 3: all of that.

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Speaker 2: And I think one of the and.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to overstate this, but I think one

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Speaker 3: of the worrisome things right now is.

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Speaker 2: Is that still the case?

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Speaker 3: Do we still think that that's important? Kind of like

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Speaker 3: maybe how we talked about My parents both worked in

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Speaker 3: the auto industry, and I think there was a time

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Speaker 3: period where people said, should we still be building.

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Speaker 2: Cars in the United States?

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Speaker 3: And my parents both ended up leaving the auto industry

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Speaker 3: in two thousand and one because they were fearful that

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Speaker 3: the industry was just going to change. It did not

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Speaker 3: got bailed out, as you know, and all these things happened,

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Speaker 3: and here we are today. I think it sort of

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Speaker 3: feels this has some of those same tones as that

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Speaker 3: are we going to look back twenty years from now

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Speaker 3: and say the United States is still the global leader

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Speaker 3: when it comes to these things. That's the thing that

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Speaker 3: I worry about, sort of philosophically, sort of more practically speaking.

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Speaker 3: Governor's something you talk about a lot as well. We're

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Speaker 3: not a healthy country. We spend four and a half

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Speaker 3: trillion dollars on healthcare. We don't have a lot to

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Speaker 3: show for it in terms of outcomes, in terms of

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Speaker 3: overall health. I think we saw that ripped off like

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Speaker 3: a band aid during the pandemic. People say, how can

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Speaker 3: a country that spends that kind of money do so

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Speaker 3: poorly with regard to patient outcomes. We walked in pretty

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Speaker 3: unhealthy into that situation. So I think some of that

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Speaker 3: needs to change. And frankly, most of that problem, I

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Speaker 3: think is in how we nourish ourselves, you know, the

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Speaker 3: foods that we put into our body, the chemicals that

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Speaker 3: we ingest. It's a problem. It's part of the reason

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Speaker 3: I got into medical journalism in the first place. That

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Speaker 3: needs to change, and people have been saying that for

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Speaker 3: a long time.

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Speaker 2: You talk about it in California. First Lady Obama used

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Speaker 2: to talk about that.

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Speaker 3: You know, Michael Bloomberg talked about that when as Mayor

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Speaker 3: of New York, so it's not a new discussion, but

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Speaker 3: I think it's one that needs to be had.

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Speaker 1: So I want to get to both subjects cause I

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Speaker 1: think it's interesting as you start with the larger issue

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Speaker 1: as some of us and I'm not putting words in

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Speaker 1: your mouth, but there's sort of this war on knowledge

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Speaker 1: more broadly speaking, and certainly scientific expression is part of that,

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Speaker 1: this notion of just confidence in trans parency, truth trust.

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Speaker 1: We can get to missing disinformation and how that debate

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Speaker 1: plays out differently through the lens ideological lens on both

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Speaker 1: sides of the political prism. But the interesting thing I

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Speaker 1: think you underscored is just this trend line that's been

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Speaker 1: decades and decades. It's i think growing headline in some

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Speaker 1: ways because of this Maha movement. And I think if

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Speaker 1: there's one sort of reckoning, it's a recognition with RFK Junior,

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Speaker 1: and we can get to the more controversial aspects of it.

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Speaker 1: But this whole Maha movement is interesting to me. You

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Speaker 1: brought up Obama first, Ladya Michelle Obama in the Let's

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Speaker 1: Move campaign, her focus on issues of a chronic disease

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Speaker 1: obesity school lunches, which was exceptional at the time, and

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Speaker 1: I was exceptionally engaged in that campaign. I think it

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Speaker 1: was a twenty ten ish plus or minus. But where

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Speaker 1: are you in this Maha movement. Do you think it's

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Speaker 1: a breakthrough in terms of consciousness, on a wellness frame,

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Speaker 1: on a focus on some of these broader issues that

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Speaker 1: are been under resourced in terms of time and attention.

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Speaker 3: That's a good question. I do think a lot more

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Speaker 3: people are talking about this.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: I wish it didn't require, you know, sort of really

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Speaker 3: demeaning certain populations of people to do it, But there's

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Speaker 3: no question it has struck a nerve and I hear

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Speaker 3: people talking about it from circles that I had not

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Speaker 3: heard people talking about this before, just in terms of

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Speaker 3: really wanting to have some autonomy over their own health.

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Speaker 3: So there's a lot of kernels of truth, I think

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Speaker 3: to what is happening out of the Maha movement, it is.

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Speaker 3: It is I think largely based on precautionary principle, which

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Speaker 3: we can talk about more because I think there's other

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Speaker 3: aspects of what is happening in healthcare that are the

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Speaker 3: opposite of precautionary principle. This demand for more evidence and

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Speaker 3: replication of evidence. And it's not just be careful, it's

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Speaker 3: let's prove this to the nth degree before we make

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Speaker 3: any movements. But with regard to ultra process foods, with

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Speaker 3: regard to petroleum based die some of these petroleum based dies,

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Speaker 3: Governor should have probably never been approved no nutritional value.

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Speaker 3: They were purely aesthetic. There's many countries around the world

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Speaker 3: that don't have them. These food manufacturers can clearly make

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Speaker 3: these products without them.

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Speaker 2: I have kids.

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Speaker 3: I've worried about this for a long time, so people

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Speaker 3: have been talking about it, but no one got it done.

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Speaker 3: You did in California, and now it's starting to happen,

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Speaker 3: I think more to national level.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting so jays know some of the

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Speaker 1: things we let on. I appreciate you highlighting. I mean,

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Speaker 1: and this has been a passion project for me, going

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Speaker 1: back to my mayor days when you referenced Mayor Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: and I were very competitive in this space as mayor's

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Speaker 1: He with a much larger platform in New York, I

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Speaker 1: with a little smaller platform in San Francisco. But I've

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Speaker 1: deeply been committed as you have in terms of all

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Speaker 1: your work focusing not on sick care, but healthcare, focusing

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Speaker 1: on social determinants of health, which we'll talk about in

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Speaker 1: a moment, and wellness and prevention. But one of the

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Speaker 1: things that is really you know, came to the four

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Speaker 1: with me through a political ends was this notion of

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Speaker 1: ultra processed food, but specifically as it relates to food dies.

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Speaker 1: And we did something that was referred to on the

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Speaker 1: far right which was the Great Irony and mocked. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many with respect to another

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Speaker 1: news network there three news network mocked consistently called the

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Speaker 1: Skittles band because we were moving red dye and we

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Speaker 1: were the first state to do that. Now it seems

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Speaker 1: to be socialized in the political spectrum on the right

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Speaker 1: as sort of you know, endowed leadership from the MAHA movement.

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Speaker 1: But what was the movement towards all this? I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's there's chemical chemicals aside, but additives. There's

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Speaker 1: sort of obsession. Is it just it was a taste?

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Speaker 1: Was a texture that we were after? Was it longevity? Freshness?

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Speaker 1: Why the US not the EU? What was it? What

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Speaker 1: is unique about the United States that we became overly

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Speaker 1: indulgent in these additives and chemicals.

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Speaker 3: I think it's more than more than one thing, but

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Speaker 3: I do think a lot of it had to do

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Speaker 3: with longevity, initially increasing shelf life of food, and that

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Speaker 3: really got it a lot of additives, even going back

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Speaker 3: to hydrogenated corn syrup versus sugar. You know, when you're

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Speaker 3: adding these types of things in there, you're not only

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Speaker 3: adding sweetness to some extent, but you're adding how moist

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Speaker 3: the food is and how long it's going to last

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Speaker 3: on a shelf. I think, trying to remember, you know,

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Speaker 3: former President Clinton used to talk about this. You can

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Speaker 3: feed a lot of people a lot of calories for

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Speaker 3: cheap if you're having these ultra processed foods. You know,

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Speaker 3: if you have family at McDonald's for twenty five bucks,

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Speaker 3: you know if you have ultra processed foods.

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Speaker 2: So I think it.

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Speaker 3: You know, if you increase shelf life, you can decrease costs.

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Speaker 3: I do think the aesthetics of the food is not

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Speaker 3: an issue to be minimized, though it's very I don't

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Speaker 3: know if you heard the story about what happened with

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Speaker 3: fruit loops. I think back about a life years ago,

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Speaker 3: twenty fourteen timeframe, where you know, they basically said, all right,

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Speaker 3: let's remove some of these food dies. There was a

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Speaker 3: lot of pressure to remove the food dyes, and the

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Speaker 3: root loops as a result, were not as brightly colored.

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Speaker 2: They were kind of bland color.

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Speaker 3: If you go to Europe and go to a hotel

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Speaker 3: or something, you go to the breakfast buffet and you

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Speaker 3: get fruit loops, they're bland colored fruit loops. They're the

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Speaker 3: same fruit loops otherwise, but they just don't look the same.

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Speaker 3: And what they found when they did that in the

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Speaker 3: United States was two things. One is that people didn't

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Speaker 3: buy those blandly colored fruit loops, and two is they

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Speaker 3: kind of got accused of the same thing that you

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Speaker 3: were talking about, sort of nanny state, don't take away

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Speaker 3: our brightly colored fruit loops, same thing that Mayor Bloomberg

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Speaker 3: got accused of when he wanted to not sell sixteen

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Speaker 3: out sodas anymore any state. And so it's really it's interesting, Governor,

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Speaker 3: this balance between personal freedom and health. And what is

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Speaker 3: interesting is that you can be sort of thinking the

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Speaker 3: same thing and approach that in two completely different ways.

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Speaker 3: One hand, I'm going to do precautionary principle. We're not

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Speaker 3: going to have food dies doesn't make sense, no nutritional value.

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Speaker 3: Why would we do that? I kind of agree with that. Again,

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Speaker 3: as a health conscious person myself, I like to eat right,

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Speaker 3: I like to exercise every day. Why would I do

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Speaker 3: something like that to my body?

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Speaker 2: On the other hand, what is the level.

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Speaker 3: Of evidence you need to have before making a decision?

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Speaker 3: Prove to me that red dye number three is bad?

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Speaker 2: Prove it. Maybe some will say, why do you need

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Speaker 2: to prove it causes.

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Speaker 3: Cancer and animals and we should have never approved it

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Speaker 3: in any ways, But what is the level of evidence?

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Speaker 3: And that's going to extend, I think beyond food and

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Speaker 3: additives to vaccines and therapeutics and other things. I think

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Speaker 3: that's going to be the crux of the.

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Speaker 1: Issue, and it's important on the precautionary frame and the

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Speaker 1: precautionary principle. I mean, I think that's fundamentally, isn't it

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Speaker 1: The difference between the EU policy where so many of

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Speaker 1: these foods just simply never make the shelf, and fundamental

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Speaker 1: policy that's advanced in the United States.

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Speaker 3: That is exactly your friend, I think Todd Wagner, who's

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Speaker 3: a friend of mine as well, he talks about this

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Speaker 3: a lot. He started this organization food Fight, and you know,

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Speaker 3: when I spend time talking to these folks and reporting

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Speaker 3: on this, people will always say the same thing, which is,

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Speaker 3: I go to Europe, I hate the same foods, pasta.

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Speaker 2: I do whatever, and I feel great.

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Speaker 3: Great, I lose weight. I all that. Now, some of

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Speaker 3: that may be that you're you're active more over there

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Speaker 3: as well. There could be other things, but I think

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Speaker 3: there's something definitely to that.

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Speaker 2: And that I think that so it's it's a little bit.

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Speaker 3: More than precautionary principle. You have these large cohorts of

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Speaker 3: the population that say, I have lived in both those worlds,

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Speaker 3: I've eaten both these foods, and I can feel the

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Speaker 3: difference in my own body.

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Speaker 2: I think you can't.

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Speaker 3: You can't ignore that, again with the backdrop that those

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Speaker 3: petroleum based eyes don't have any nutritional value, not losing

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Speaker 3: anything by stripping them out other than aesthetics, which.

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Speaker 2: You know, maybe may be important.

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Speaker 3: People people do like their brightly colored fruit loops. As

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Speaker 3: it turns out.

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Speaker 1: So you talk about you're talking in the terms of

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Speaker 1: precautionary principles, sort of the the two ends of this,

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Speaker 1: and you reference the issue of vaccines. Is that a

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Speaker 1: reference to m r NA vaccines? Is that in what

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Speaker 1: respect is a precautionary principle sort of the one hundred

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Speaker 1: and eighty degree uh flip side of that principle being

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Speaker 1: abused in terms of or is it just moreover on

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Speaker 1: what more evidence do you need of something being bad

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Speaker 1: or good? Is it the same thing?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's I think it's a m RNA vaccines,

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Speaker 3: but but but more widely, I think it's vaccines in general.

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Speaker 3: And I think it's maybe even the response to things

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Speaker 3: like a pandemic. You know, when you're dealing with something

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Speaker 3: that is novel. I mean, by the way, uh, you know,

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Speaker 3: COVID was a novel disease. We had never experienced it before.

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Speaker 3: And I know people said said that a lot novel virus.

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Speaker 3: You heard that a lot. But I mean, if you

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Speaker 3: really sit and think about that, it's kind of extraordinary.

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Speaker 2: I mean, as an.

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Speaker 3: Adult, we don't get to experience novel things very often.

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Speaker 3: Kids experience novel things all the time. But when is

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Speaker 3: the last time you governor experienced something for the first time.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't happen very often. So now you're dealing with something

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Speaker 3: that is novel and you have to say, okay, look,

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Speaker 3: our response isn't going to be exactly right.

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Speaker 2: Nothing's exactly right.

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Speaker 3: Where are we going to tilt? What side we're going

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Speaker 3: to err on? Are we going to air on precautionary

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Speaker 3: principle or going to are we going to err on

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Speaker 3: the side of let's sort of see how things go

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Speaker 3: and you know, figure it out as we go along.

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Speaker 3: And I think, you know, public health, the the training

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Speaker 3: often is to to sort of side with precautionary principle.

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Speaker 3: It's like, let's be careful as we sort of sort

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Speaker 3: this out, how is this virus behaving? Who's it affecting?

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Speaker 3: So I think MR and A vaccines were part of that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, people, I think understandably would say, we need

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Speaker 3: long term data on these things before we start releasing them.

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Speaker 3: I think that's a really fair sort of thing to say.

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Speaker 3: But you realize that in the middle of a pandemic

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Speaker 3: to get long term data means you have to wait

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Speaker 3: long term or are you're going to wait five years, ten years?

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Speaker 3: What does long term mean? You know, if it's for

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Speaker 3: a kid, is it eighty years? What does it mean

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Speaker 3: in terms.

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Speaker 2: Of how long you're willing to wait? What struck me.

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Speaker 3: And again, this is finding the balance between precautionary principle

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Speaker 3: and evidence. Is that we knew that for vaccines, the

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Speaker 3: vast majority of the time, greater than ninety percent of

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Speaker 3: the time of side effects were to occur, they would

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Speaker 3: occur within the first sixty eight days. That was the number,

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Speaker 3: so just over two months. So then the idea that

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Speaker 3: the FDA would say, well, let's wait three months, let's

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Speaker 3: just let's try and cover as many possible side effects

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Speaker 3: that have come from this as possible before we give

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Speaker 3: emergency use authorization. Is that is an example I think

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Speaker 3: of policy that you have to sort of think about

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Speaker 3: in the throes of something like this. It is still

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Speaker 3: precautionary because we don't know the long term data. On

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Speaker 3: the other hand, you're using the best evidence that we

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Speaker 3: do have in terms of what history has taught us.

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Speaker 3: And I think, you know, I know it's been a

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Speaker 3: sort of cluster since that, but I think at the

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Speaker 3: time to me as a reporter, a medical reporter, and

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Speaker 3: as a doctor, but also as a dad, that made sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the side effects are going to occur.

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Speaker 3: They usually occur within two and a half months. Let's

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Speaker 3: keep a close eye on this thing, watch it like

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Speaker 3: a hawk, wait even longer than that, and at that point,

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Speaker 3: if things look good, then I go ahead and provide

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Speaker 3: an EUA for it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting it continues to this day. I mean,

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Speaker 1: obviously at the state level, when we saw the Surgeon

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Speaker 1: General of Florida come out and recommend against m mRNA vaccines.

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Speaker 1: Obviously the President is spoken from every side on this issue.

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Speaker 1: I mean, considering you, through Operation warp Speed was the

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Speaker 1: one advancing the platform and the technology. But obviously the

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Speaker 1: new Health and Human Service Secretary has been very critical

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Speaker 1: and has been prone arguably to some sort of wild

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Speaker 1: eyed theories around DNA issues related to the the RMA

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Speaker 1: m RNA vaccine and concerns around DNA concerns obviously around

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Speaker 1: its safety, uh and and in the side effects. What

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Speaker 1: what's where are you now in terms of just your concerns.

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Speaker 1: Our m RNA is not just for COVID vaccine, right,

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Speaker 1: It's also used for other vaccines.

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Speaker 3: Use for other vaccines, and use for other therapies entirely,

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Speaker 3: including cancer therapies right their clinical trials now trying to

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Speaker 3: use these types of platforms m r and A platforms

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Speaker 3: for very difficult to treat cancers, including pancreative cancer, which

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Speaker 3: we don't have great, great answers for. You know, I

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Speaker 3: think I'm I think I'm pretty practical on this. I

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Speaker 3: think where we are now in twenty twenty five versus

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Speaker 3: certainly when these vaccines got approved were in a different place,

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Speaker 3: meaning that even though the uptake of vaccines has gone

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Speaker 3: way down, most people did get the initial series of vaccines,

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Speaker 3: and we know that they can, especially for young people,

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Speaker 3: they can provide more durable relief. There hasn't, you know,

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Speaker 3: after the initial what they call ancestral strains of COVID

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Speaker 3: before omicron.

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Speaker 2: I think these still provide pretty good.

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Speaker 3: Protection, especially for young people whose immune systems really respond

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Speaker 3: to them. So I still think, you know, I said

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Speaker 3: this before. I think this was one of the great

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Speaker 3: scientific achievements of my time as as a human being.

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, when textbooks are written about scientific achievements,

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Speaker 3: the idea that they were able to create a vaccine

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Speaker 3: essentially in nine months and be able to you know,

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Speaker 3: protect so many people.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of people who think they don't work.

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Speaker 2: They do work.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if you looked at the data California or

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Speaker 3: the country as a whole. Who was in the hospital

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Speaker 3: during the huge sort of swings and COVID It was

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Speaker 3: primarily people who were not vaccinated, so it was helping

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Speaker 3: protect against illness and death. What I think was unfortunate, Frankly,

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Speaker 3: and this was a communications problem, was that they seemed

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Speaker 3: to also intimate that it would protect you from getting

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Speaker 3: COVID at all, from carrying it, and there was not

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Speaker 3: great evidence behind that, And you know, we reported as

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Speaker 3: such that you don't have great evidence that shows that

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Speaker 3: when you have a vaccine that's protecting against illness, it's

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Speaker 3: usually protecting in your lower respiratory and your lungs, so

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Speaker 3: you're not getting that really really sort of a deep illness,

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Speaker 3: but you might still have it in your mucosa, in

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Speaker 3: your mouth and your nose, in your upper airway, so

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Speaker 3: you could potentially still be carrying it and still potentially

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Speaker 3: spread it. That wasn't I think a communications error, and

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Speaker 3: I think, Frankly, Governor, I think it led to a

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Speaker 3: lot of distrust overall of these MR and A vaccines.

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Speaker 3: You said, you said I couldn't get COVID if I

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Speaker 3: got this, Well I got COVID and I spread it.

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Speaker 3: So what is this is a vaccine or is it

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Speaker 3: not a vaccine that was that was a problem?

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Speaker 1: And do you I mean, are we being oversensitive hyperbolic

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Speaker 1: as it relates to how now this is manifested with

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Speaker 1: the new recommendations that for pregnant women and for children

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Speaker 1: they shouldn't even be getting these boosters on COVID or

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Speaker 1: is that overstated or is that a more targeted approach?

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Speaker 1: Do you think it's rational? We can talk about how

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Speaker 1: that was done without the CDC an advisory committee that

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Speaker 1: usually advises in terms of recommendation, but the outcome ultimately

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Speaker 1: of that decision. Where are you on that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I mean, first of all, you know, with regard to

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Speaker 3: the CDC and expertise, I mean, you know, it amazed

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Speaker 3: me when I watch people like Tom Frieden during Ebola

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Speaker 3: or Richard Besser during H one n one do their

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Speaker 3: briefings in front of the CDC, and they would say,

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Speaker 3: behind us, we have four thousand of these smartest, most

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Speaker 3: hard working scientists in the world.

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Speaker 2: They are so good that other.

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Speaker 3: Infectious to these organizations, and other countries model their organizations

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Speaker 3: after us, even calling their organizations the CDC.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that was a source of great pride.

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Speaker 3: I think for people in the public health world, myself included,

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Speaker 3: I think where I am now at this point in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty five is, first of all, I think what

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Speaker 3: Sexuary Kennedy has said versus what is reality is different.

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Speaker 3: There's daylight between those two things. So he basically said

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Speaker 3: no more boosters for kids, basically no more shots. Even

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Speaker 3: now on the CDC's website, that's not what it says.

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Speaker 3: It says it should be a shared clinical decision between

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Speaker 3: patient and provider. So for kids, I think that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if your kid has asthma, do you want

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Speaker 3: to get your kid a COVID shot? How bad is

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Speaker 3: the asthma, how many times they require an inhaler, Do

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Speaker 3: they have diabetes, do they require insulin? You know these

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Speaker 3: are there's nuance to that decision, and I think, you know,

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Speaker 3: the general approach has always been, instead of trying to

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Speaker 3: stratify all this by risk, which can be difficult as

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Speaker 3: a country to do, let's just recommend the vaccine. I

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Speaker 3: think what they're saying is let's do risk stratification and

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Speaker 3: let's put it at the hands of the.

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Speaker 2: Providers, of the doctors, you know, for these kids. I

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Speaker 2: think that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: You know, you know, if your kid is otherwise healthy,

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Speaker 3: they've had their primary series, which most kids have had.

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Speaker 2: We haven't had new variants that are worrisome.

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Speaker 3: For the time being. I think that that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Pregnant women I would put into a different category. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the thing about pregnancy is that when you're pregnant. When

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Speaker 3: someone is pregnant, they their immune system is compromised intentionally,

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Speaker 3: the way the body works. You don't want to reject

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Speaker 3: this new body inside your body, inside a woman's body.

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Speaker 3: So the idea that you know, you would be more

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Speaker 3: vulnerable to infections while pregnant is real. In fact, you know,

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Speaker 3: the FDA commissioner wrote before these new recommendations came out,

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Speaker 3: he listed pregnancy as a high risk condition for COVID

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Speaker 3: and then a couple days later said pregnant women don't

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Speaker 3: need it. I mean, if people's heads were spinning, I

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Speaker 3: would understand why.

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Speaker 2: The second thing.

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Speaker 3: About pregnant women is that if they get vaccinated, they

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Speaker 3: can actually pass on some of the antibodies to their child,

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Speaker 3: So for the first six months of life, that child

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Speaker 3: may have protection, and they're very young. Kids like that

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Speaker 3: are very, very vulnerable to COVID. Some of the rates

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Speaker 3: of severe illness they approximate what older adults have, so

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Speaker 3: very young, very old, both can get very sick. But young, young,

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Speaker 3: young kids under the age of six months can't get

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Speaker 3: a vaccine, so mom can provide protection. But now they're

438
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 3: sort of recommending against that as well, don't I don't

439
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 3: think it'll stick. I think most infectious these doctors, you know,

440
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:02,640
Speaker 3: if you go to your doctor as a pregnant woman,

441
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 3: will say, hey, look, here's the benefits. You're you're immune

442
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,680
Speaker 3: compromised as a result of pregnancy, and you can help

443
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 3: protect your child after they are born. I think most

444
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 3: people will will, you know, at least pay attention to.

445
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 1: That as it code read what's happening with vaccines generally,

446
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 1: the sort of growing anxiety around vacs. I was listening

447
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,680
Speaker 1: to your podcast recently just about you know, people expressing

448
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: concern they're getting so many shots a young child, newborn,

449
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden they're getting four or five shots.

450
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,119
Speaker 1: Twenty years ago they may have gotten less shots. But

451
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 1: you described a very different construct as it relates to

452
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 1: anogens and proteins and dose, which was fascinating to me

453
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 1: and obviously calmed I think the nerves of those who

454
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: were inquiring. But talk to me more broadly about the

455
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: state of vaccines, your anxiety and pushback against some of

456
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 1: this vaccine skepticism that's out there.

457
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 3: Well with regard to the you know, you hear these

458
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 3: crazy numbers, you know, seventy two vaccines and all that. First,

459
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 3: all those are just made up numbers. It's weird to me, Governor,

460
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 3: there's no accountability for people saying stuff that's just absolutely

461
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 3: not true. I hope people, you know people they always say,

462
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 3: do your own research. I hope people do their own

463
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,919
Speaker 3: research with regard to some of this. So, yeah, we

464
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 3: vaccinated against more diseases than we used to when you

465
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 3: and I our kids were around the same age. But

466
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 3: what you're referring to is this something known as the

467
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 3: antigenic load, which is really what you know, scientists pay

468
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 3: attention to how much of a sort of load of

469
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 3: antigens are we giving to the body. And what you

470
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 3: find is that nowadays, compared to days when we are

471
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 3: still vaccinating against things like smallpox, for example, the load

472
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 3: is much much lower, exponentially lower than we used to give.

473
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 3: Even though there's more vaccines. Vaccine technology has gotten better.

474
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 3: They use adjuvants to to so you don't have to

475
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 3: give as much of the overall whether it be live

476
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 3: virus or anything else, as we used to. So we

477
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 3: don't sort of cause the immune system to react nearly

478
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 3: as much today as we used to in the past

479
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 3: because of that anergenetic load. So you know, numbers of

480
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,199
Speaker 3: shots and all that. Look again, as a dad, I

481
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 3: don't like saying my kids get shots.

482
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 2: I get that.

483
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 3: I understand that, but in terms of what it's actually

484
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 3: doing to the body compared to what we used to

485
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 3: do to the body at a time when, by the way,

486
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 3: autism was a much lower rate, so we used to

487
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 3: give a much bigger anergentic load and lower autism rates.

488
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 3: Now we have a much lower anergenic load and we

489
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 3: have higher autism rates. Make of that what you may

490
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 3: those that's the data, that's the facts, and so I

491
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 3: don't know that I would call it code red, but

492
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 3: I think that this the argument against I think what

493
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 3: is a very very effective preventative strategy gain a lot

494
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 3: of them, and I think people are becoming increasingly increasingly

495
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 3: concerned about vaccines and has it What did.

496
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 1: You make I mean, you were out there in Texas,

497
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: this measles outbreak. I mean, and you know, folks arguing

498
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: for more, and look, I'm not belittling it, but it

499
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: was interesting to me cod liver vitamin as a solution,

500
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 1: not vaccines. I was reading in different sources that you know,

501
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: a double digit percentage of people that you know had

502
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,719
Speaker 1: measles ended up in the emergency rooms and people are

503
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: still arguing for heavy loads of vitamin A. I mean,

504
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: give me a sense of, you know, on the ground

505
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: truth seeking that you did, and you know, how does

506
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 1: that play in sort of a modern flashpoint with this

507
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: ideological movement and the practical realities on the ground.

508
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 3: I think for the physicians and nurses and everybody who's

509
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 3: caring for patients there, it was incredibly frustrating for them.

510
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 3: I mean, you're talking about vaccine preventable disease. We essentially

511
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 3: native measles in this country. I think when we say frustrating,

512
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 3: it's like, how are we going to make big swings

513
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 3: at big important things evolutionarily in science if we can't

514
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 3: get the little things right. It's dying of measles, kids

515
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,199
Speaker 3: even getting sick of measles, being hospitalized with measles, it

516
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 3: doesn't need to happen.

517
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 2: It's a travesty, you know.

518
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,199
Speaker 3: And I think most of the people, frankly that we

519
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 3: spoke to, and not just people in the medical community,

520
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 3: but we spend a lot of time talking to citizens

521
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 3: just going around taking the temperature. I think there was

522
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 3: a lot of frustration, but at the same time they're

523
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 3: being assaulted with all sorts of information that is not accurate.

524
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 2: You know. This seemed to have started in a small.

525
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 3: Community, a Mennonite community, and it's really interesting. There's nothing

526
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 3: in the religious doctrine that says they shouldn't take measles vaccine.

527
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 3: But what happens is we learned you may know, Governor,

528
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 3: is that these very insular communities, they don't get a

529
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 3: lot of outside information often so they may have somebody

530
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 3: in the community whose child developed the febril seizure or something.

531
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 3: I think that's what happened here. After a vaccine, that

532
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 3: can happen and right away that spread, like you know,

533
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 3: wildfire through that community, and all of a sudden, nobody

534
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 3: wanted to get vaccinated when you're dealing with something as

535
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 3: contagious as measles. Then that community as they're walking through

536
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 3: the town of gains or wherever you know, the costco

537
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 3: or fast food wrestler, whatever it may be, you can

538
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 3: start to spread the virus. So that's what was happening there.

539
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 3: I will say to RF case credit, he did go

540
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 3: there and he was conciliatory towards vaccines.

541
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: He did.

542
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 3: He did, at least in the moment, recommend the measles

543
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 3: vaccine to people, which which I thought was really important

544
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 3: and really really good. I think since then he sort

545
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 3: of he's sort of backtracked on that. Obviously with COVID.

546
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 3: I think COVID seems to be sort of low hanging

547
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 3: fruit because the uptake has been so low already that

548
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 3: the idea of saying we're not recommending it anymore was

549
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 3: sort of I think easy. But I think with regard

550
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:07,719
Speaker 3: to MMR and other things, they're critically important, and you know,

551
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 3: I think the hopefully that message continues to get out there.

552
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 2: I think it's changing.

553
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 3: Even in West Texas. I think that you know, you

554
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 3: did see increase measles uptake. We were at clinics, pop

555
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 3: up clinics, and people were showing up to get measles

556
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 3: vaccine that had never been vaccinated in their lives. So

557
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 3: you know, I think in the throes of something like that,

558
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 3: you do see behavior changing a bit.

559
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: It's encouraging in the behavior, and I appreciate your reverence.

560
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 2: R Ok.

561
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: But it just depends on the day of the week.

562
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: I mean, he says that when he's there on the ground,

563
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: and then he gets into the cabinet meeting and says, well,

564
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: we have outbreaks all the time. And you know, even

565
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: though this disease was substantially you know what two thousand,

566
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: it was declared gone right.

567
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 3: Correct, it was declared eliminated at that point. And there

568
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,479
Speaker 3: have been some measles outbreaks since then. I mean there

569
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 3: was one night in twenty nineteen I think it affected

570
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 3: Disneyland and that's right as well Minnesota, Brooklyn.

571
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 2: So there have been measles outbreaks.

572
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 3: But you know, this, this this vaccine hesitancy issue has

573
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 3: been around for a while. You know, I've been a

574
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 3: reporter for twenty five years now almost. And I'll tell

575
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 3: you what's interesting to me. And I'm curious if this

576
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 3: is interesting to you. But if ten years ago, if

577
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 3: you said, who is the most likely person in America

578
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 3: to be vaccine hesitant, describe that person, and I think

579
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 3: what you would likely have described at that point was

580
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 3: a young person liberal and woman usually among right.

581
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: Oh, I trust me. I grew up in the Bay Area,

582
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: so you can appreciate it. In California, I know a

583
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: lot of them. Yeah, perfectly described.

584
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 3: And now in twenty twenty five, I think the demographics

585
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 3: have changed in terms of who's most likely to be

586
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 3: vaccine hesitant or resistant, older white conservative men. And I

587
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 3: you know, I'm not a politician, but I'll tell you

588
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 3: I think that these issues are used as proxy issues

589
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 3: for a larger sort of conflict. You know, vaccines are

590
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 3: the issue. I think people glom onto. It's understandable, they

591
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 3: can sink their teeth into it and all that. But

592
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,239
Speaker 3: within ten years, even less than that. Frankly, I think

593
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 3: it was twenty nineteen, maybe six years ago you would

594
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 3: have said young liberal women and now older conservative man.

595
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 3: I think within six years it's completely flipped. And I

596
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 3: think there's other proxy issues like that as well. And

597
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 3: I think it just sends a signal that these are

598
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 3: you can't disentangle anything from politics. I never thought of

599
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 3: vaccine hesitancy as a political issue.

600
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 2: I thought thought it was concerned moms.

601
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 3: My wife would have conversations should we get all the

602
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 3: vaccines at once or should we spread them out a

603
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 3: little bit? And I would sit down and talk to

604
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 3: her about anergetic load and all that, and I think

605
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 3: she definitely listened to me, but it required a conversation.

606
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 3: So I got that. Now it's all politics, it seems,

607
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 3: and that's very difficult to sort of confront.

608
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: No, And I mean I think it goes to our

609
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,479
Speaker 1: opening conversation as well. I mean that was this certainly

610
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: the case with Michelle Obama. I mean, she was just

611
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: just ridiculed and attacked for, you know, focusing on healthy

612
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: foods and focusing on our kids and chronic disease and

613
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: issues around obesity. And and that's why I think it's

614
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: important for those that may be critical of the MAGA

615
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: movement to be at least sensitive to the attributes and

616
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: the positive components of the MAHA frame that is, focusing

617
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 1: on the same issue coming in from different political lens certainly,

618
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: and not get you know, sort of caught up in

619
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: this vaccine issue when we focus on the fundamental issues

620
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: of wellness, which I think we just as a country

621
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: need to come to grips with.

622
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 2: I think that's the challenge.

623
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 3: People like to look at these and binary ways, Maha bad,

624
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 3: Maha good.

625
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 2: There's goods and.

626
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 3: Bads to it, you know, I think there's a lot

627
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 3: of stuff that as a health very health conscious person myself,

628
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 3: someone who thinks a lot about longevity. I got parents

629
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 3: in eighties, I got teenage kids. I think about this

630
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 3: all the time. There's a lot of things that the

631
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 3: Maha movement says that I totally agree with, and again,

632
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 3: things that you have been doing in California with regard

633
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 3: to our foods. I think seventy percent of illness chronic

634
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 3: disease in this country is preventable, and again we spend

635
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 3: four and a half trillion dollars on it. So preventing

636
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 3: seventy percent I mean medically obviously important, but also morally

637
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 3: and financially and everything else. The vast majority of those

638
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 3: preventable disease I think comes in how we nourish ourselves

639
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 3: our food supply. So I totally understand that. Again, I

640
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 3: wish it didn't have to be done in a mean

641
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 3: spirited way. You know, it's just not my personality to

642
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 3: be vitriolic to get things done. But on the other hand,

643
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 3: I think people have been talking about trying to reform

644
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 3: our food supply for a quarter century, and it hasn't

645
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 3: really been done.

646
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 2: Maybe this will.

647
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 3: It's already leading to some changes with regard to food

648
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 3: dies and things like that.

649
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 2: We'll see where that all lands.

650
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 3: So I think some of it is really important, but

651
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 3: there's other parts of it that I think. In vaccines,

652
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 3: I guess would be the best example where I have

653
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 3: real concerns.

654
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 1: Tune in for more with doctor s