1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,279 Speaker 1: Rebecca and Nagel. Here before we get into this episode, 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: I wanted to let you know that you can hear 3 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:09,639 Speaker 1: episodes of First America early and ad free by signing 4 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: up for Pushkin Plus. You'll also get bonus episodes, full audiobooks, 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: and other binges from your favorite Pushkin hosts and authors. 6 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: Find Pushkin Plus on the First America Show page on 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot fm slash Plus. Let's 8 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: get into it. Just a heads up before we get started. 9 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: This episode includes descriptions of violence against Indigenous people. Please 10 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: take care while you listen. You see, ANSWER's a spot 11 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: full over like right here. 12 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 2: I think I'm all the way off through. 13 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, okay. This past fall I drove with 14 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: my producer Jordan to a small time in eastern Tennessee. 15 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: All right, so where are we right now? We are 16 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: in a bend of the Highwaha River. We're kind of 17 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: in the middle of someone's farm. He's actually on the 18 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: tractor right now, farming. There's a horse and a donkey 19 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: and a bunch of farm equipment, and you can see 20 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: a really beautiful hill in the distance that I think 21 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: is on the other side of the river. So we're 22 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: like walking distance from the river. It is just kind 23 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: of wild. Like even the person is farming right now 24 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 1: we are talking, may not know the story of this land. 25 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, hi, yeah, that is. 26 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: We're just recording some tape for a podcast. A man 27 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: in short sleeves, jeans, and a baseball cap climbed off 28 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: his tractor to come and talk to us. Where he 29 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: was friendly. Yeah, we're talking about the history of the 30 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: Trail of Tears in the area. We're recording a podcast. 31 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: Sorry to pull you a hat a tractor. 32 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, actually, where I live at that's part of it, 33 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 4: up our Trail tears. Oh wow, there got in on 34 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 4: that river up in there. 35 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: He told me he knows this land was part of 36 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: the Trail of Tears. 37 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 4: Well, the Indians they lived up our tea because I've 38 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 4: got a garden up there, and I picked up stuff 39 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 4: up our old town to our own heads and hatchets 40 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 4: and meal rocks and stuff, you know, to mat Every 41 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 4: time I pick up one, I think, oh, gosh, how 42 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 4: many years ago? 43 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, how long ago? We're just recording about some of 44 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: the history in the area. 45 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 4: So picking up the Indian arrow around there all my life? 46 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: Oh really, how long have you lived here. 47 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 4: Well, I'm sixty five horn raids up here working a 48 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 4: far Am. I actually live up on up the river 49 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 4: road up. 50 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: Far Okay, Yeah, well I don't mean to take you 51 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: away from plowing your field and bothering you. 52 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 2: But yeah, we're just she's talking about. 53 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: Oh, that's all gonna be tulips. You guys are gonna 54 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: do a little tulip farm. 55 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 4: Right over thirteen by out. 56 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 1: Wow, that'll be really pretty come back in the. 57 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 5: Spring, fell out. 58 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: What are your thoughts and feelings being here, because like 59 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: they're putting gonna put toolips fly. How is this speaking 60 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: you feel? I mean, it's just a really heavy place. Yeah, 61 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: it's just a really heavy place if you ask like 62 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: the average American. Has the United States ever had a 63 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: concentration camp on us soil? I don't think people would 64 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: think of this place. In eighteen thirty eight, this was 65 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: part of Fort casts, which was a concentration camp where 66 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: Cherokees were kept the United States federal government and also 67 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: the states here in the South. They wanted all indigenous 68 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: people in the Southeast to be gone. My family has 69 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: a complicated relationship to this place. Some of my ancestors 70 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: signed Cherokee Nation's Removal Treaty. They thought it was the 71 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: tribe's best chance at survival, but most Cherokees didn't agree. 72 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: The treaty set a deadline for Cherokees to leave their homeland, 73 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: and so the US military rounded them all up at gunpoint. 74 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: Seven thousand soldiers and militiamen went out into all of 75 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: the Cherokee towns and it took twenty five days for 76 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,799 Speaker 1: them to round everybody up and put them into concentration camps. 77 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: People weren't allowed to collect possessions, so people weren't allowed 78 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: to even like find loved ones. There was a pregnant 79 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: woman who was actually in labor, so they drove her 80 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: from one of the remote valley towns in North Carolina 81 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: and forced her to walk, and she gave birth and 82 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: they would still not let her rest, and then close 83 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:14,239 Speaker 1: to this place she died. 84 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 6: That's horrifying. 85 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think when people think about the Trail of Tears, 86 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: they're like, oh, it was violent because people had to 87 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: walk a long distance. But actually the most violent part 88 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: of our removal was in the camps. Disease was really rampant. 89 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: And I think disease is this stand in for like 90 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: why Native people died in a way that lets the 91 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: United States off the hook, but often it was the 92 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: violence and the disease worked hand in hand. Yeah, I 93 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: don't know, it's really heavy. Uh yeah. I think what 94 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: strikes me is. 95 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 3: Just how deeply you can feel the collective forgetting of 96 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 3: what happened here, that it's just like a field and 97 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 3: a subdivision. 98 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 99 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. When I started this project, I was on a 100 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: quest of sorts. I wanted to answer a question. It's 101 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: a big question but also kind of simple. How do 102 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: I fit? How do Native people fit an American democracy? 103 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: You know, like what democracy rounds an entire ethnic group 104 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: up at gunpoint and puts them into a concentration camp. 105 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: You're listening to First America, the true story of how 106 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: the United States came to be and how our current 107 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: political moment is two hundred and fifty years in the 108 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,559 Speaker 1: making from Pushkin Industries and Critical Frequency. I'm your host, 109 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: Rebecca Nagle Gohein d'Al don de leca Yetlekee La citizen 110 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: of Cherokee, Nesian. Before I made this history podcast, I 111 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: reported on the Supreme Court. I followed one case where 112 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: my tribe could have lost our reservation and another one 113 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: where all tribes could have lost the special legal status 114 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: that protects everything from our land to our kids. During 115 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: that reporting, I traveled to DC to attend oral arguments. 116 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: It was the first time I stepped inside the Supreme 117 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: Court building. The room was full of Native people who 118 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: traveled thousands of miles to come watch. They had lined 119 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: up before dawn to get a seat. To enter the courtroom, 120 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: we had to go through security twice. A guard made 121 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: one Native woman put a t shirt over her traditional clothes, 122 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: otherwise she'd have to leave. One of the guards. 123 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 5: She was like, listen, like political attire isn't allowed, and 124 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 5: I told her. I was like, this is my culture, 125 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 5: this is my religious fact, this is my traditional attire. 126 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: I sat behind more senior white Supreme Court reporters. I 127 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: watched two of them walk past a security guard yelling 128 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: at them to stop. They just ignored her. Before the 129 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: proceedings started, I stood up to get a look around 130 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: the room. I was told to sit down. When the 131 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 1: white reporter stood up. No one said anything. A big 132 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: part of our democracy and especially our courts, is this 133 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: idea of fairness. In this case about Native rights, it 134 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: felt like the perfect example of how the rules aren't 135 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: the same for everyone. We will hear argument this morning 136 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: and Colin versus Brecking and the consolidated cases. Mister McGill, 137 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: that day of oral argument was one of those fourteen 138 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: hour days that started before the sun came up and 139 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: ended after it went down. When I was finally walking 140 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: back to my hotel, I got lost. I was too 141 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: tired to navigate the maze of DC streets. I sat 142 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: down on the steps of a manicured office building and cried. 143 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: I had thought my job was to fix the inn 144 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: accurate and let's be real racist media narrative around these 145 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: important cases. I wanted the Supreme Court to not harm 146 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: my community, or at least harm it less. But what 147 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: I felt in those sobs was powerless. As Native people, 148 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: we were still defending such basic things, power over our land, 149 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: over our children, and we had to jump through so 150 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: many hoops to even do that, and that question of 151 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: how Native people fit into US democracy. I didn't have 152 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: the words for exactly what, but I knew something was wrong. 153 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: The past two episodes, we talked about the lead up 154 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: to the Revolutionary War. We talked about the Boston Tea Party, 155 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: the Declaration of Independence, and why the colonists rebelled. In 156 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: this episode, we are looking at the war itself as 157 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: a country. We talk about the war as if it 158 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: was fought between England and the colonies. It's a story 159 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: of David standing up to Goliath and we get to 160 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: be David like everyone else. That's the story I learned 161 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: in school, but as an adult I found out that 162 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: story was wrong. 163 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 2: Turn left onto Great Gully Road, so it's supposed to 164 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 2: be at this stood there, look up here. 165 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: That's the site of Cayuga Castle, New York ninety and 166 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: Great Gully Road. I was looking for a historical marker. 167 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: We didn't see the marker from the car, so we 168 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: got out and walked around. What's the weather like today? 169 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 6: Balmy is beautiful upstate New York day. It is heavy 170 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,839 Speaker 6: and gray, as it usually is this time in November. 171 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: This is Scott Manning Stevens, which. 172 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 6: Is my settler name. Golognok Dat is my Mohawk name. 173 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 6: I'm a citizen of the aquesesessin Mohawk Nation and a 174 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 6: member of the Bear Clan. 175 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: He's the director of Native American and Indigenous Studies at 176 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: Syracuse University in New York. Scott's tribe the Mohawk is 177 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: part of a larger indigenous confederacy, and that confederacy played 178 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: a big role in the Revolutionary War. You've probably heard 179 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: of them as the Iroquois, but that's just what the 180 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: French called them. 181 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 6: We call ourselves collectively the hode Noshone, which means people 182 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 6: of the long House. 183 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: The confederacy was a only made up of five tribes. 184 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 6: So starting with the Mohawk, then the Oneida, the Onondaga 185 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 6: in the center, the Cayuga, and then the Seneca. 186 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: The tribes came together under a peace agreement around one 187 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: thousand years ago. Many consider the hoden Schone one of 188 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: the oldest democracies on Earth. It's four times older than 189 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 1: the United States. 190 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 6: Isn't like popular with the pigeons. 191 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: Scott and I were standing on the side of a 192 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: two lane highway. We still hadn't found the marker, but 193 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: from Google Maps we knew we were close. This place 194 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: that's now fields and farmland and highway was once the 195 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: capital of Cayuga Nation, one of the tribes in the 196 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: hoden Schone Confederacy. So if you were to like close 197 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: your eyes and like imagine what this would have looked 198 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 1: like in seventeen seventy eight, like, can you describe it beautiful? 199 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 6: I love the finger legs of these really, you know, 200 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 6: they're quite long but thin, so you can see across 201 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 6: them easily, and I find them kind of serene. It 202 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 6: would have been forested in some places, and farmland and others. 203 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 6: There'd be a number of large, traditional style long houses. 204 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 1: Can you describe what would have happened here in seventeen 205 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: seventy nine? 206 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,439 Speaker 6: I imagine just chaos. If we assume that troops behaved 207 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 6: the way that Washington urged them to behave to come 208 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 6: shrieking in with bayonets drawn into a village to terrify 209 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 6: the population. It had to be utterly terrifying. And they're 210 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 6: you know, they're burning and lane waste to everything. 211 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: During the Revolutionary War, part of the hoden Shone Confederacy 212 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: sided with the Americans, but a bigger part sided with 213 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: the British. A few years into the war, a group 214 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: of British troops and Mohawk warriors attacked colonists. George Washington 215 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: ordered a scorched earth campaign as retribution. General John Sullivan 216 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: led the campaign. He used an entire third of Washington's 217 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 1: army to destroy dozens of hoden Shone towns. His men 218 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: targeted food so that the people would starve. The army 219 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: would spend days slashing and burning acres of corn. Then 220 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: they would pile the bushels into houses and set it 221 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: all on fire. They destroyed over eleven million pounds of 222 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: corn this way. The army also killed hundreds of civilians. 223 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: In one early massacre, militiamen speared children with bayonets. 224 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 6: So you were running for your lives and you saw 225 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 6: behind you everything you knew being burned down. 226 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: More than five thousand refugees of Sullivan's campaign made it 227 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: to Fort Niagara, which was still controlled by the British. 228 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: The British wouldn't let the refugees inside the fort, and 229 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: so they camped around it. The British gave them food, 230 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: but not enough for people to survive. 231 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 6: And probably, you know, five hundred or more are dead 232 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 6: by the spring. 233 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: Some historians estimate that during Sullivan's campaign, between direct killing, exposure, 234 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: and malnutrition, half of all hood and Shone people died. 235 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: Do historians consider Sullivan's campaign an act of genocide? 236 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 6: I mean we we do. 237 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: Scott and I got back in his car and kept 238 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: looking for that historical marker, like often happens, we were close. 239 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: It was a few hundred yards down the road. We 240 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: pulled over on a little patch of dirt and got out. 241 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: Can you describe what it looks like? 242 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 6: So it's an almost six foot tall upright stone and 243 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 6: it has a bronze plaque. But the is a map 244 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 6: of this region of central New York and the various 245 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 6: routes that the soldiers took and attacking the different Hodnashoni 246 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 6: communities across the region. 247 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: What does it feel like to see a monument celebrating that. 248 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 6: Well, it's a bitter thing, and you know, it would 249 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 6: be hard to imagine this in a country like Germany 250 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 6: today because it would be read as genocidal and like, oh, 251 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 6: we should take that down. This kind of desire to 252 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 6: utterly destroy a people is something that you wouldn't think 253 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 6: would be easily celebrated. 254 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: Some people might say what happened to the Hodenshone during 255 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: the Revolutionary War, while horrific and tragic, is just part 256 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: of what happened during war. After all, they attacked colonial 257 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: settlements too. But during this period, colonial militias attacked native 258 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 1: communities that were neutral or allied with the United States 259 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: communities that were peaceful. One of those communities was called 260 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 1: Not in Hunton. It was a congregation of Lenapes and 261 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: Mohicans who had converted to Christianity through German missionaries. In 262 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: seventeen eighty two, after warriors from a different tribe killed 263 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 1: and captured some colonists, the militia of Washington County, Pennsylvania 264 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: went to investigate Not in Hutton. When the militiamen reached 265 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: the area, they told the congregation they just wanted to 266 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: take them to a nearby fort where they would be 267 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 1: safe from the British. The congregation was cautious, but eventually 268 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: opened their doors and even off for the militia food. 269 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: The militia separated the men and women into two buildings 270 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: and tied everyone up, and then they took a vote. 271 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 1: Would they take the captives to the fort or would 272 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 1: they kill them. The militiamen chose slaughter, knowing they would 273 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: die the next day. The Christian natives spent the night 274 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: singing hymns. Both this German sect of Christianity and Lenape 275 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 1: and Mohican cultures had songs for death and believed that 276 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: singing them aided spirits in their passage. The militiamen spent 277 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: the night drinking communion wine and preparing two killing houses, 278 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: one for men and one for women and children. In 279 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 1: the morning, the militia took congregation members into the killing houses, 280 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 1: two at a time. They used a large wooden and 281 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: metal mallet made to pound iron to kill each person 282 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: with a blow to the head. Then they scalped and 283 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: piled the bodies. We know what happened, thinks in part 284 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:16,719 Speaker 1: to two children who survived. One named Thomas, was knocked 285 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: unconscious and scalped by the militia members. He awoke to 286 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 1: dead friends and family members being stacked around him. He 287 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 1: didn't move As it got dark, he hid behind the 288 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: house and then escaped to another village. Before the militiaman left, 289 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: they burned the bodies of all the townspeople and the 290 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: buildings they had killed and stacked them in. They looted 291 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: and ransacked the town, and then they left with what 292 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: they had taken horses, blankets, food, and the scalps of 293 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 1: thirty men, thirty two women, and thirty four children. Congress 294 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: and the state of Pennsylvania ordered an investigation, but no 295 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: one was ever held accountable. The un defines genocide as 296 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 1: the intent to destroy a group of people in whole 297 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: or in part. The term was coined in the nineteen forties, 298 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: but has been applied to historical events. The popular story 299 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: of the Revolutionary War is wrong. It wasn't just a 300 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: fight for liberty and freedom or even independence. It was 301 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 1: also a sprawling conflict over who would control the continent 302 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: of North America, and to stake out their claim, the 303 00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: United States was willing to commit unspeakable acts of violence. 304 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 3: Lens. 305 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: It's a big shift and how we talk about this war, 306 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: and how we think about it, and how we teach 307 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 1: it to our children. The Revolutionary War was also a 308 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: campaign of genocide. When I started seeing the revolution this way, 309 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: I stop asking how do I fit into this democracy 310 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: and started asking a different question, one that has broader 311 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: implications and higher stakes and is frankly just scary. Is 312 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 1: this even a democracy? Was it ever? That answer? After 313 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: the break in this quest to figure out us democracy? 314 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: I decided I needed to talk to an expert. The 315 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 1: first thing we're going to do is just get your level, 316 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: someone who understands the structure of our government better than 317 00:21:57,680 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: I do. Can you just tell me what you had 318 00:21:59,080 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: for breakfast. 319 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 5: The awkward thing is I haven't yet had breakfast. I 320 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 5: had coffee. It's been that kind of a day. 321 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: And so I sat down with a constitutional law professor. 322 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 5: Yes, I am Maggie Blackhawk. I teach law at NYU 323 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 5: Law School, and I'm Fondeleac band a Jibwei. Should I 324 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 5: say my formal title, I'm Maggie Blackhawk and the Moses Grossman, 325 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 5: Professor of Law at NYU Law School. 326 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: I've known Maggie for years. She's really helped me shape 327 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: how I think about these issues, and so first I 328 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 1: wanted to get her take on my original question, how 329 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: do Native people fit into US democracy. I'm a citizen 330 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 1: of the United States, but I'm also a citizen of 331 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: Cherokee Nation, and my tribe has a nation to nation 332 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: relationship with the federal government that's based on the treaties 333 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: that we signed. I feel like I've had as like 334 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: a Native person when I think about my relationship to 335 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: the government, like I have that relationship as an individual, 336 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: but then I also have a relationship through my tribal nation. 337 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 5: But what relationship is that. 338 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: Like between Cherokee Nation, between. 339 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 5: You and your tribal nation and the United States what 340 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 5: is that relationship? If you had to put. 341 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: A word on it, Oh god, I mean old what 342 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: about now? I mean, I guess that would be nation 343 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 1: to nation. I mean, it's like France to the United States. 344 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: But we're subordinated like you are. 345 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 5: And it's a big word, subordinated. You're unequal, you're you know, 346 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 5: but what would you call it? I know you want 347 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 5: to call it government to government, and you know, but 348 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 5: when I press on that, it doesn't quite fair. 349 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it's you know, it's a relationship of like 350 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: the people who've been colonized to the people who colonize. 351 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,719 Speaker 5: They go, We've got a word, but it took a 352 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 5: long time. And if you actually ask most Native people, okay, 353 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 5: what's the relationship, they will stumble over it. 354 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: But I think it's just because it's so hard to 355 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: say that, like, because I think we want to, like 356 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 1: we want to assert the sovereignty that we still have. 357 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: What Maggie got me to say is this, my relationship 358 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: to the federal government is that it colonized me and 359 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: my tribe. It's hard to admit, but that's how I 360 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: fit into us democracy. I think that's what I felt 361 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: that day at the Supreme Court before I had words 362 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: for it that despite all the things that Indigenous people 363 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 1: have done to assert our sovereignty or self determination, we 364 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: are still stuck under the foot of this government that 365 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: has done so much much harm. It's hard to reconcile 366 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: that with the story of America I was taught in school. 367 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: I think when we think about the founding of the 368 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 1: United States, it feels like the myth is this idea 369 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: that our founding fathers created this great democracy that rejected 370 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: the tyranny of the King of England. Is that the 371 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: full story of our government. 372 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 5: No, the story we tell ourselves about the United States 373 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 5: origins as throwing off a king, throwing off monarchy, and 374 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 5: establishing democracy, leaves out empire. 375 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: Maggie says that story of our founders building a democracy, 376 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: it's only half true. Part of the government they built 377 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: was democratic, but part of the government they built was 378 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: something else. 379 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 5: They wanted to be, a quote empire for liberty from 380 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 5: the beginning. So the break with Britain was less about 381 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 5: throwing the colonialism behind and more about throwing the king behind. 382 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like democracy for us, colonialism for them. Yeah, No, 383 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: exactly right, in terms of sort of the fight in 384 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 1: the US over sort of are we a democracy? Are 385 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: we sort of not living up to those ideals? 386 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 5: It's even a harder question. I think, do you yeah, 387 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 5: Do I have a position on it? I think when 388 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 5: you bring in the story of expansion and colonialism, it 389 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 5: just explodes the conversation because it's not even about building 390 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 5: a government that just doesn't give everyone the same kind 391 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 5: of political power. It really is that the US is 392 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 5: building governments that are not representative. 393 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 1: When the US into Native territories and later into places 394 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: like Guam and Puerto Rico, those places didn't get democracy. 395 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 5: So you wouldn't have elections, you wouldn't have accountability. This 396 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 5: was not the American dream that the Constitution at least 397 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 5: promised for those who were within the polity and within 398 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 5: the several states. 399 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: In the early years of our country, unelected leaders govern 400 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 1: two thirds of all land in the United States. The 401 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: only person they answered to was Thomas Jefferson. 402 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 5: If you look at least live you know the land mass. 403 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 5: We've had more area of our government governed by top down, unilateral, 404 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 5: non representative government for much longer than we have had 405 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 5: actual representative government within the US. 406 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: When did we stop governing territories that way. We haven't. 407 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: Here's how I understand what Maggie is saying. Imagine a circle. 408 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: What's inside that circle is the United States government. You know, 409 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: it's got things like courts, elections, constitutional rights, local state 410 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: and federal government. But the US also governed people and 411 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: places outside that circle. And outside the circle, the US 412 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 1: gave itself a different set of rules, and those rules 413 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: were first created to colonize indigenous people. The US government 414 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: controlled where we could live, what religion we could practice, 415 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 1: what languages we could speak, what food we ate, how 416 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: we raised our children, if we could even keep or 417 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: have children, all against our will. So while our founders 418 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: did build a democracy, they also built something else. You 419 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: can call it empire, you can call it colonization. I 420 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: call it authoritarianism, top down government that controlled the lands 421 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: and lives of indigenous people. I think that most Americans 422 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: think that what our government did to Native Americans affects them. 423 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: No should they? Yes? Why? 424 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 5: Well, because we had to build a government to do that. 425 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 5: We had to build a government to dispossess. We had 426 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 5: to build a government to expand we had to build 427 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 5: a government that colonized. And that government is still our government. 428 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: A lot of what our government can and cannot do 429 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: is based on precedent, which is a legal way of saying, 430 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: if our country did something before, it can do it. 431 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 5: Again, especially if we've done it before a lot and 432 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 5: you let us do it. We don't actually think through, ah, 433 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 5: was this a good idea when we did this quite 434 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 5: a few times. The one area of exception is around 435 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 5: the area of human enslavement and Jim Crow segregation, and 436 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 5: those are areas where we have explicit constitutional amendments as 437 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 5: well as decisions that have later repudiated things. 438 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: The legacies of slavery and segregation are still with us. 439 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: Just look at voter id laws. But the policy of 440 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: enslaving people is no longer legal. 441 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 5: But think in the area of Indian law, you don't 442 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 5: get big amendments. 443 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: It's almost kind of scary, like when you think about 444 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: everything that our government did to Native Americans that we've 445 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: never gone back and edited our government and said, oh, actually, ooh, 446 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: like we really really shouldn't commit genocide again, that was bad, 447 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: Like we shouldn't put people in concentration of camps again. 448 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: What you're saying, like, we've never had that edit. 449 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 5: So I dug really deeply into the question of Japanese 450 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 5: American incarceration and Indian law, and come to find out 451 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 5: the two detention camps under the War Relocation Authority were 452 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 5: built on Indian reservations. The Bureau of Indian Affairs actually 453 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 5: ran and established the first camp because they knew how 454 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 5: to detain people and govern them. And the science of 455 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 5: governing other people through force is sadly something that takes 456 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 5: forms of expertise, and the US developed that and then 457 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 5: they applied it to different and new people. 458 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: There's this feeling I have every time I talk to Maggie. 459 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: This history is so important, but why don't more people 460 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: know about it? I think something that I'm grappling with 461 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,239 Speaker 1: is that, like, I feel like we're left out of 462 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: the like America raw raw version of the history. But 463 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: I feel like we're also left out of the like 464 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: the founding fathers were flawed, you know, like women weren't 465 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: you know, like all these people weren't included. I feel 466 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: like we're left out of that version too. 467 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 5: Yes, well, it's because if you bring in Native people 468 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 5: in American colonialism into the constitutional and national story that 469 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 5: we hold, it pulls a thread that unravels the entire myth. 470 00:31:59,120 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 5: At once. 471 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: Doing this reporting, I realized I don't fit into the 472 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: story of American democracy, but I am still part of 473 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: the origin story of this country. You actually can't understand 474 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: this country without Indigenous people, because what our history tells 475 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: is the story of American authoritarianism. After the winner that 476 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: Hodanchone refugees camped at Fort Niagara in seventeen seventy nine, 477 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: they returned home, but not much was left. Following George 478 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: Washington's orders, the colonial army had burned everything. 479 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 2: And the people who survived in the spring came back 480 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 2: to Onodaga to rebuild with nothing. 481 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: This is brad Palace. 482 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 2: My name is Dero Do. I am from the Onadaga nation. 483 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: Brad's father first told him the story when he was fifteen, 484 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:00,040 Speaker 1: and he goes. 485 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 2: It's a good thing. It's a sad story, but it's 486 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 2: a good thing too. It's both at the same time. 487 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: When the Onondaga returned to their land, they saw what 488 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: the army had burned, their homes, their crops, their food stores, 489 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: even their fruit orchards. People had barely survived that winter, 490 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: and now they were facing more starvation. But then something happened. 491 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 2: That's when our friend Oguanyota came and provided a food 492 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 2: source for us. 493 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: The cicadas came out. The people ate cicadas to survive. 494 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,959 Speaker 1: There's something really special about this. You see, the cicadas 495 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: on Onondaga Land live in one small area and only 496 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: come out every seventeen years. The rest of the time 497 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: they're hibernating. If this had happened any other year or 498 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: any other place, the people would have starved. Brad gets 499 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: emotional when he talks about this. 500 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 2: It really tears me up thinking about it. Is that 501 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 2: something that your creator gave us that year? 502 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 1: Mm? 503 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 2: I don't know. 504 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: I teared up too while talking to Brad. I know 505 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: my ancestors went through hell so that me and my 506 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: tribe would still exist, but this example is just so visceral. 507 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: Brad taught me how to say cicada and Onondaga. 508 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 2: So o gwen yota, o gwen yota, Yes, Ogwenyota, oh 509 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 2: gwen yota, honya. 510 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: The cicadas or ogwenyota still come out on Onondoga Land 511 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 1: every seventeen years, and it's quite a sight to see. 512 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: The first time they came out, Brad was a teenager. 513 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 2: Oh, they are everywhere. Like you walk outside and they're 514 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 2: just like rain dripping off the trees. They come out 515 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 2: during the summer, the trees are all green and beautiful. 516 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 2: My mom was like, you got to get ready to 517 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 2: pick them because you got to pick them early. So 518 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 2: you get up early in the morning and you're going 519 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 2: through and you're picking them off off the trees. If 520 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 2: you're really young, you know you're a little scared because 521 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 2: they're a big bug with big red eyes. 522 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: Nowadays, when the ogwen jota come out, the Onondaga fry 523 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: them and eat them. Families make it together. People bring 524 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: big batches to share it summer ceremonies. What does it 525 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: taste like? 526 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,879 Speaker 2: Everyone always says chicken, But it's always it's its own 527 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 2: unique flavor for sure. I guess the most similar thing 528 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 2: would be is be like kind of like a popcorn. 529 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 2: You get a nice little buttery base. Then you get 530 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 2: your butter nice and melted, and you throw your cicada in. 531 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 2: It'll sell them pepper. That's all you need. 532 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,359 Speaker 1: The Onondaga didn't always eat bugs. At first, they did 533 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: it to survive, and now they do it to remember 534 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:07,280 Speaker 1: the times in your life that you've eaten cicadas or Oguinnyota, 535 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,919 Speaker 1: do you think about your ancestors? 536 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 2: Definitely. 537 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: There's something almost poetic about the way the ogwin Yota 538 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 1: come out every seventeen years. It means once every generation. 539 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: There's this material way for the community to remember what 540 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: their ancestors went through, and in one person's life. You 541 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: learn the story as a child, you pass it on 542 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: to your children in middle age, and tell it again 543 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: as an elder. Do you consider Sullivan's campaign an active genocide? 544 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:43,479 Speaker 2: Of course. 545 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: It is like when you read George Washington's letter to 546 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: General Sullivan, like the goal is really to drive you 547 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: all out, to get you away from your land. Was 548 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: that successful? 549 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 2: We're still here. We lost so many people, so that's 550 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 2: sad to think about, but no, we still stayed and 551 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 2: we were able to come back home. 552 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: You know, for Indigenous people, it's not like this stuff 553 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: is easy to talk about. It's overwhelming how much our 554 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 1: ancestors lost, but we find ways big and small to 555 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: remember because without that we wouldn't know who we are 556 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,799 Speaker 1: and how we got here. The same is true for 557 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: the United States. Genocide shaped and changed our country, and 558 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: until we process that violence, we won't know who we 559 00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: are or how we got here. There's this war you've 560 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: probably never heard of, but it's why our president can 561 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: use the military the way that he does. You know, 562 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: my ancestors put dirt in those soldiers' mouths to say, 563 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 1: if you're going to get our homelands, this is the 564 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,879 Speaker 1: only way you're going to get it. Next time on 565 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: First America. If you like what you're hearing, please leave 566 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: a review. It's one of the best ways to help 567 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,760 Speaker 1: listeners find this show. You can also support First America 568 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,280 Speaker 1: by subscribing or sharing episodes with your friends. First America 569 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 1: was made possible by the generous support of the Henry 570 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: Loose Foundation in the Nyu Yale American Indian Sovereignty Project. 571 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: Additional support came from Indian Collective, First Nations Development Institute, 572 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: Jajavio Tom of San Manuel Nation, Borealist Philanthropy, and Black 573 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 1: Liberation Indigenous Sovereignty Collective. Our fiscal sponsor is Red Media. 574 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 1: I dream this project into the world and collaboration with 575 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 1: an amazing group of Indigenous scholars, including Maggie Blackhawk Fond 576 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 1: de lac Ojibwe Ned Blackhawk, citizen of the tm Ok 577 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,760 Speaker 1: tribe of Western Shoshone, Phil Deloria, descendant of the Standing 578 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: Rock and Yankton Sioux tribes, and Nick Estes, citizen of 579 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: the Lower Brule Sioux Tribe. I Rebecca Nagel, citizen of 580 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: Cherokee Nation, also reported, wrote, hosted, and executive produced. The show. 581 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: First America is produced by Critical Frequency and distributed by 582 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. Our Managing producer is Amy Westervelt. Senior producer 583 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: and sound designer is Brendan Baker. Our story editor is 584 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: Audrey Quinn. Jules Bradley, Kim Nettervi Petersa and Jordan gas 585 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: Pore are our producers. Our editorial consultant is Connie Walker, 586 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: citizen of the Okinese First Nation. Backchecking by Naomi bar 587 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 1: Our Partnerships director is Lindsay Crowder. Our development consultant is 588 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 1: Jenny Lawton. The theme song is by Raven Chikhan, who 589 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,320 Speaker 1: is Dinney. Scoring by Laura Ortman, citizen of the White 590 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: Mountain Apache Tribe and Raven Chikon. Artwork by Kelly Gonzalez, 591 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,760 Speaker 1: citizen of Cherokee Nation. The team at Pushkin is Greta 592 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: Cone CEO, Eric Sandler, Chief Strategy Officer, Grace Ross VP 593 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 1: of Business Development. Morgan Ratner, Director of Marketing, Owen Miller, 594 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:29,320 Speaker 1: Content Delivery Associate, Keira Posey, Creative Partnerships Manager, Jordan McMillan, 595 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:33,839 Speaker 1: Social Media Manager, Brian Strabinick, Senior Analytics Manager, and Jake 596 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:38,760 Speaker 1: Flanagan Production Council Special thanks this episode to David Jones, 597 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 1: Paul kelton Yinzu Vaghettil, Jeffrey Osler, and Atani nota citizen 598 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,320 Speaker 1: of Navajo Nation. Research help from James Anthony Owen