1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media, 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heat as 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: even represent my own and nothing contained in this show 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: should be used his medical advice or encouragement to use 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: any type of drug. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. I'm very excited 10 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: about my guest today. It's David Simon, and many of 11 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: you will know his name because he was the creator 12 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: or co creator with Edward Burns of The Wire, that 13 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: fantastic TV showing to HBO in the early two thousand's, 14 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: but about the drug war and about the drug world 15 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: in Baltimore. He's got a new show out on HBO 16 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: called We Own This City and it's in a way, uh, 17 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: not a sequel. I think he's called it a sort 18 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: of coda to the Wire, but also going back into 19 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: Baltimore about the drug trade, about police and police corruption. 20 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: So David, listen, Thanks so much for joining me on Psychoactives. 21 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: You and I we've never met, but I feel like 22 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: we've been sort of parallel tracks, and so I'm gonna 23 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 1: be sharing stuff about my own life that you don't know. 24 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: First all we sharing common where we're two bald, white 25 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: guys who grew up in the suburbs, whose fathers were, 26 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: as you call it, professional Jews right as yours worked 27 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: for the Jewish social service organization but a brith mine 28 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: was a rabbi, and who have been passionate for our 29 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: entire adult life about ending the drug war and drug prohibition. 30 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: So let me just start by asking you why did 31 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: this become on such a significant part and passion of 32 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: your life. Well, I wasn't passionate about it for my 33 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: whole life, Um, I would say I acquired some on 34 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: the ground awareness of what the drug war was accomplishing 35 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: and what it wasn't because they made me the police 36 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: reporter for the Baltimore Sun in the city of Baltimore. 37 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: That was a happenstance. I I was. I wanted to 38 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 1: go into journalism. I was I wanted to be a newspaperman, 39 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: and I happen to get hired and they put me 40 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: on the entry level beat of night police reporter. Uh. 41 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: And it was in this remarkably drug saturated city of Baltimore, 42 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: where the drug war was in full force and would 43 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: actually ratchet up several times while I was there, And 44 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 1: so I sort of experienced the drug war UM as 45 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: an observer. I wasn't particularly interested in in the subject 46 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: matter until it became my beat. I didn't have a 47 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: lot of experience or interest in drugs themselves. I mean, I, 48 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: you know, smoked some weed and tried some things here 49 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: and there, but it was it was not I was. 50 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: I had no devotional interest in in UM altered states, 51 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: and this was just pure journalistic uh. Interesting and then 52 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: having the beat, I you know, at first, I was 53 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: just interested in how the war was progressing. I was 54 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: covering it as the facts on the ground. But there 55 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: came a point at which I started to realize that 56 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: the policy itself was problematic. Did you find ways, you 57 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: think in your reporting for the Baltimore Sun. I mean, 58 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 1: the drug war was really beginning to go crazy in 59 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: the eighties when you're covering it and the early nineties, 60 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,399 Speaker 1: did you find ways to put in your critical approach 61 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: to this stuff? In the reporting it was it just 62 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: impossible or was it somewhat possible, but you weren't thinking 63 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: to do it at quite yet at that point, I 64 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: think I probably got there when I got there, which 65 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: is to say in the beginning, you know, I mean 66 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: you got Remember I was twenty twenty one years old 67 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: when I started writing for the newspaper and twenty two 68 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: when they put me on that beat about the turn 69 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: twenty three, and in the beginning, you're just sort of 70 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: like trying to keep up with what happened yesterday. So 71 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: you know, you're talking, you're talking to hops. You know, 72 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: you don't have a lot of sources on the street. 73 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: So when they put dope on the table, when they say, 74 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: you know, this happened in the Southeast District today, we 75 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: we seized, you know, this much dope and it's got 76 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: a street value of X and we've got three guns 77 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: with it, and they put it all on the table. 78 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: You know, it's news. It's just it's it's it's what 79 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: happened yesterday. So you're just in the beginning, you're just 80 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: reporting without context. But you're learning, you know, you're learning 81 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: to require sources and people who might you know, let 82 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 1: you buy them a beer and talk to you, you know, 83 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: law enforcement. But everything was sort of at a surface 84 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 1: level because you're young and it's a new beat, and 85 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: you're just you know, just hey, what happened yesterday? And 86 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: can I get a byline? Um And there came a point, 87 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: i'd say, four years into me covering the beat, when 88 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: I was in my you know, it was probably about 89 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: when they gave me an assignment to um do sort 90 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: of a history on this one drug trafficker who had 91 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: had a legendary career in Baltimore going back to the 92 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: your only nineteen sixties, little Melvin Melvin Williams. And I 93 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: tried to find out everything I could about this. He 94 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: had just fallen for his third major charge. He had 95 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: gone to jail in sixty seven, he'd gone to jail 96 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: again in seventy five. He was now back at in 97 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: eighty four, and he had gotten caught up in a 98 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: in a federal case. And he was really a character, 99 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: I mean, and sort of a guy who had cut 100 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: a wide swath in Baltimore. And so I learned everything 101 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 1: I could about him, and eventually he started talking to 102 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: me from he was in Louisburg, penitentiary, and I got 103 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: invited up to sort of for him to pontificate on 104 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,799 Speaker 1: his life, and it ended up being a long series 105 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: of articles and and in talking to Melvin, I started 106 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 1: to have doubts about the advocacy of the drug war 107 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: and about what had replaced him, because in some respects 108 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: UM arresting him had been as about a meaningful prosecution 109 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 1: as you could have. He'd done a lot of damage, 110 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: but it also had almost no effect on the on 111 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: the street culture of drugs in Baltimore, as no arrest 112 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: seems to ever, you know, in the long run. UM. Obviously, 113 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: arresting people for drug related violence is elemental and necessary, 114 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: but trying to inhibit the drug trade through a rat 115 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 1: the power of arrests seems to be problematic. So that 116 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: was the first moment. And then as I proceeded down 117 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: a pace, you know, I started to look at what 118 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: it was going wrong inside the police department. And I 119 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: would say, just before I left the paper, by then 120 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: I had I had come to the conclusion that UM 121 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: drug enforcement was actually destroying law enforcement was destroying policing. 122 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone was arguing that anywhere that I 123 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: was reading, but I was seeing it for my eyes 124 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: in terms of what it was doing to the Baltimore 125 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: Police Department and the State's Attorney's office to an extent. 126 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 1: So I I started, let me say, because I mean, 127 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: you know, for me, I mean just you know, back 128 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: in the eighties, I'm a graduate stender at Harvard. I 129 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: get myself into the State departments Arcotics Bureau. I get 130 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: some clearances, and I go and interviewed d e A 131 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 1: and Customs and FBI and c I agents and all 132 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: this all around the world, Latin American, Europe, and it 133 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: was kind of in the system, and I'm seeing how 134 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 1: stupid the whole damn thing is. But what I'm also 135 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,559 Speaker 1: aware of is when I write my dissertation and books 136 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: about this, I lean over backwards to be fair to 137 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: these d A guys, even though I think what they're 138 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: doing is just like the prohibition agents of old. Now 139 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: to flashforward, you know, some years ago, maybe late nineties, 140 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: early two thousands, the former executive editor of The New 141 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: York Times, Max Frankel, writes a not bet in The Times, 142 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: and he says it's time for media, for the reporters 143 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: to cover the drug war the same way that that 144 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: Vietnam reporters finally began to cover the Vietnam War the 145 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: way that David halber stammard, he'll shade and those guys 146 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: to be critical, right, So it's a kind of a 147 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: calling out right. But at the same time, what I've 148 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: also heard people say is that when you're a police reporter, 149 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: when you're covering crime, you depend on those cops as 150 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: your sources, and if you start writing critical stuff about 151 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: them while you're covering it, you lose your sources, you 152 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: lose your access. If there's a kind of building contradiction 153 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: between covering the drug war in a critical way as 154 00:07:56,040 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: a daily reporter and maintaining your ability to function, and 155 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: I went, I didn't have that problem. I have to 156 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: say I didn't have that problem at all in the 157 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: sense that I got to know a lot of cops, 158 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: and some of them were abiding drug warriors. And certainly 159 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: if somebody was like running the d e A Office 160 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: field office in Baltimore, or somebody was the head of 161 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: an oar Cotact unit, I didn't expect any real introspection 162 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: about what they were doing, or any real you know, 163 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: self awareness or self critique about about policy coming from them. 164 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: That's not where you get. I mean, if you make 165 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: a bunch of sources, if you if you work the 166 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 1: beat hard, you eventually find the cops who are being 167 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: a little bit thoughtful about what they're accomplishing and what 168 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,719 Speaker 1: they're not because they can't help us see it. And 169 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: and what I would credit is I found a lot 170 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,719 Speaker 1: of cops, some some really smart, who said this is 171 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: screwed up, and you know, we were not only we're 172 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: not winning, we're not you know, we're undercutting what we 173 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:56,439 Speaker 1: claimed to be. And they became insightful to me. Some 174 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: of the best anti drug war sources I ever got 175 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: were cops who are fighting the drugs. No, no, I 176 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: mean in that sense. I when I was interviewing the 177 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: d e A guys who was the same thing. There 178 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: were guys who were total ideologues, and there were guys 179 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: whould just lie their asses off to me. But then 180 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: there were people who are just cynical and just saying 181 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: it's just a job, it's just to be like any 182 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: other police work, and there'll be a job from my 183 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: kid one day. And then there are others who were 184 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 1: privately in favor of legalization. I'm not I'm not with 185 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,599 Speaker 1: you on the cynical I mean I I like, I 186 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: met some cynics who were like, yeah, this is it's 187 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: just what I'm doing today. But but the guys who 188 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: were the best sources, who were who were really insightful 189 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: about it, were bothered um and they were and they 190 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: were trying to amend their priorities as best as they 191 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: could within the system. Some of them were saying, look, 192 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: I'm not interested in work in drug cases. I mean, 193 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 1: the best guy I ever had, the best source I 194 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: ever had, and I later ended up writing television with him, 195 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 1: was Ed Burns, who was a homicide detective. But he 196 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: would do these complex or nate wire taps that involved 197 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: targeting of violent drug gangs in Baltimore that we're responsible 198 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: for multiple murders. And he chose the targets because as 199 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: they were responsible for multiple murders, he could not fix 200 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: the overlay that was drug prohibition and that was not 201 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,599 Speaker 1: you know, I wasn't in his bailo Wick. He was 202 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,719 Speaker 1: one detective from from Baltimore, Maryland. But he could look 203 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: at where all the bodies were dropping and save the 204 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,719 Speaker 1: LEXA and terrorist projects and target that group that was 205 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: you know, busy killing people as a matter of business, 206 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: and he could remove them, and in removing them, he 207 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: could reduce the murder rate. And and you know, in fact, 208 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: there was one wonderful story he told me about after 209 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: they pulled all these guys out of Lexan and Harrison 210 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 1: and after they had been this terrible drug war and 211 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: eight six, and they basically walked through the projects. They 212 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: walked up and down the stairwells. The cops did um 213 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: and they said, you know, you see, you're also still 214 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: selling drugs here. We know that, but nobody's shooting anybody. 215 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: And if if you can figure out how not to 216 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: keep shooting, you know, and not to shoot everybody, we 217 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: won't be back for a while. In a sense, they 218 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: were saying, harm reduction is like, can you guys figure 219 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: out how to sell this ship without killing each other? 220 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: And when you can't, we have to come and address that. 221 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 1: And so that was a very sort of sophistic for 222 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: n That was a very sophisticated message to be putting out. 223 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: But of course they were not. That was not the 224 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: commander of the homicide unit. I'm sorry that their connection 225 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 1: or the d A Field Office people that that was. 226 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: That was a homicide detective who was looking at murders. 227 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: So there were people who were laying in the cut, 228 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: so to speak, who were very smart about the drug war, 229 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:25,839 Speaker 1: and they were not cynical. They were trying to do 230 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: the best police work under the circumstances they could well. 231 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 1: So when you step back from reporting, right and just 232 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 1: to you know, inform the audience, right. So David, you know, 233 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: basically begins to take a leave from reporting, and first 234 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: as this intensive investigation of the police, writes a book 235 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: that becomes a TV series called Homicide, highly regarded, then 236 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: goes and does The Corner with Ed Burns, which is 237 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: another incredible book, very highly regarded, also becomes a TV 238 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: I think mini series. And I think these two things 239 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: kind of come together to help you produce you know, 240 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: The Wire in the early two thousands in a way 241 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: on the one hand looking at the cops and other 242 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: hand looking at people selling drugs on the street in 243 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: that whole world. But what you're very much doing is 244 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: very much in the tradition of drug ethnography. And when 245 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: you wrote The Corner, you credited a book by Elliott Libau, 246 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: who in their early sixties wrote a book Tally's Corner 247 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: about street corner life in d C. But there was 248 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: Ed Preble was the guide father of drug ethnographers, did 249 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: an articles called Taking Care of Bigness. And there was 250 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: Mike Agar Philippe Bougua, who I don't know if you've 251 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: heard about a crup, but I had him on episodes 252 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: who did in Search of Respect and righteous? Don't think 253 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: where He's spent many years immersed in these communities, and 254 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: in some ways Sam canonists right with Dreamland at least 255 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: of us, although he comes to different conclusions than you 256 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,599 Speaker 1: and I do on the drug war. But when you 257 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,599 Speaker 1: start to immerse yourself right in this street life, in 258 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: this world, to feel like a fundamental sort of freedom 259 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: from the demands of reporting, that you're able able to 260 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: go deeper, and do you see yourself in perceptions changing 261 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 1: in fundamental way when you do that, first with the 262 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: cops and then with people in the drug world. Yeah. 263 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 1: I graduated from daily reporting to doing project work in 264 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: criminal justice and that was those were my later years 265 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: at the sun UM. But while I was at the 266 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: sun I took leaves of absence to be able to 267 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: do sort of stand around and watch journalism. One year 268 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 1: in the homicide unit, following shifted detectives and you sort 269 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: of see the mass assembly line that is death investigation 270 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: in a violent city. And then the second book was 271 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: I went to a random drug corner with that this 272 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 1: sort of drug saturated neighbor, and we met this broken 273 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 1: We'd started meeting people randomly, but eventually we settled on 274 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: this very broken nuclear family of mother, father son who 275 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: were utterly engaged by the drug culture there. And the 276 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: second book, by the time I got ready to do 277 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: the Corner, My, My, My, reporting the Sun had brought 278 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: me to the point. In fact, I've already written that 279 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: piece about that piece about the what had gone wrong 280 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: in the police. Barm basically said, you're emphasizing drug arrests, 281 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: and you're emphasizing mass arrest and you're emphasizing drug prohibition, 282 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: and you're not doing police work anymore. You're not responding 283 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: to murders, robberts, robbery's rapes. You know, you know, a 284 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: felony is no longer a felony, But you guys can 285 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: go in everybody's pockets at the corner of you know, 286 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: Mountain Fayett. What are you doing? And so it was 287 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 1: a critique of police priorities that that that's serious. So 288 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: even even when I left the paper to do the 289 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: Corner as a as a leave of absence, I already 290 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: had grave doubts about what the drug war was doing. 291 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: But now I got to experience it from me from 292 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: the other side, from the people being policed, and you 293 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: could see how disassociative and how destructive this police department 294 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: attempting to be an army of occupation was. They weren't 295 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: making the neighborhood safer. They were just harvesting stats in 296 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: the neighborhood, and they were and they were losing their 297 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: credibility one arrest at a time, or want failure to 298 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: arrest at a time in some ways with the people 299 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: who lived there, and so a few and few of 300 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: people were talking to them. Nothing was getting accomplished, and 301 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: everyone was getting paid, but nothing was getting better. It's 302 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: getting worse. So the Corner Will actually allowed me to 303 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: see it from a perspective that wasn't you know you 304 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: were You weren't kicking in the door with the police. 305 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: You were basically with the people whose doors were being 306 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: kicked in. By the way, it did not give me 307 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: any regard for drugs. If you think I'm benign about 308 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: the presence of drugs in American society, particularly in this 309 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: era of of oxygen fent and and all that. I mean, 310 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: I've lost too many people. I mean everybody, I everybody 311 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: I walked behind in the corner just about is gone, 312 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: and far too many of them from from overdose deaths. 313 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: You know. The headline today as we're talking in early May, 314 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: is that the Center Disease Controls just announced that more 315 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: people died of a drug overdose in the past year 316 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: than ever before, over a hundred thousand people. And it's 317 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: more than all the gun deaths and motor vehicle deaths 318 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: put together, plus an extra you know, tens of thousands. 319 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: And one of the people who died was the actor 320 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: Michael Kay Williams, who played Omar, you know, the kind 321 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: of charismatic figure and the Wire who Obama and many 322 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: others that was their favorite character and really extraordinary. And 323 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: at one point I think I saw Michael Williams talk 324 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: about how in his own struggles that the intensity of 325 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: being in the Wire as an actor would sometimes bring 326 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: on a relapse for him. And I just say, if 327 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: what more can you say about your relationship with Michael 328 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: Williams um, Michael struggled. We had a point at which 329 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: he actually came to production and was very honest about 330 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: the struggle he was having. We export with him what 331 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: that meant and what he wanted, I mean, did he 332 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: need to step back from the show, um, and from 333 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: the role and and instead what he said was no, 334 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: he needs to do He needed to work, He needed 335 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: to orient himself around around the work. And we actually 336 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: one of the guys in the production became basically the 337 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: the good angel on his shoulder and stayed with him 338 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: and stayed with him all the time in Baltimore and 339 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: and basically pulled him through. This was probably a moment 340 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: in season three of the show, of the five year 341 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: run of the show, so that when Michael was working, 342 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: we stopped worrying about and Michael stopped, I think worrying 343 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: about relapse because he had some guardian angels around him. 344 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: We obviously couldn't do that with somebody's somebody's life, you know, 345 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: uh and infiniteum. I always worried about Mike. Mike was 346 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: an incredibly gentle spirit who took a lot of stuff 347 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: to heart and and felt like nobody else I ever experienced. 348 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: He was really smart, he was really attuned to his 349 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: own heart, his own pain, but he had, you know, 350 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: he was attempted. And I think, you know, Um, I 351 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 1: don't think I'm saying anything that wasn't in a toxicology report. 352 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I think, you know, if you want me, 353 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,239 Speaker 1: if you want me to say it bluntly, he did 354 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: those things to himself, you know, and he had he 355 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,479 Speaker 1: had helped from the goddamn Sacklers, you know. I mean, 356 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: there's nothing that has proven more lethal than um, then 357 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: the whole oxy revolution, and and now fatal in the 358 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: idea of these synthetic opiates that are just own people 359 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: murdering them um for profit, and and the fact that 360 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: it's complicit with people who are taking them, sometimes taking 361 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: them for pain roll, you know, as part of pain 362 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: pain regiments. But nonetheless, the power of these drugs is 363 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: such that the dosage can be incredibly vulnerable. Although you know, David, 364 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: it is I mean, the Sacklers deserve eternal damnation for 365 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: what they did. But it's also true that the crackdown 366 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: on oxy content probably held catapult first the spirit of 367 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: heroin and then fentanyl, and you know, over those fatalities 368 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: have increased maybe fivefold, since the peak of the thing. 369 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: So on one hand and going, but the FINITYL thing is, 370 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: you know, it's a different thing. Oh, I know is 371 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: when people were um shooting street heroin or storting storting 372 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: street heroin or coca, they weren't dying in these numbers. 373 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: There is something extraordinary about what the lab has done. Yeah, 374 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: in the case of Federal, we're not talking about legally 375 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: produced fentinyl coming out of you know, but what we're 376 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: talking about the revolution that is basically synthetic at n 377 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: and and it's basically taking the drugs to another level. 378 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 1: M Yeah. And also a dynamic of prohibition. It's the 379 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: economics of prohibition. I don't care when it's hard to 380 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: crack down, you shift in that direction, right, I agree 381 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not suggesting that UM 382 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: prohibitions are way out of that nightmare. But I am 383 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: suggesting that a lot more money should be attendant on 384 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: the treatment and on the on the intervention at the 385 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: human level of synthetic drugs and what they're doing even 386 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: even to the attic population. Right, But it also calls 387 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: for bolder solutions when you're dealing with death or stemming 388 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: from an unregulated adulterated drug supply were fentanyls showing up 389 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: not just as pure you know, fentanyl, but mixed in 390 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 1: with other opioids and now stimulant drugs and everything else. Um, 391 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: it calls for bolder solutions, which is why I've admired 392 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: the fact that you know, you haven't pulled your punches. 393 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: You know you've called not it's not just about the 394 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: drug war, it's about drug prohibition and about the need 395 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 1: for a fundamentally different strategy. Well, I mean, but I'm 396 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: I'm I'm basically result based, which is to say, if 397 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: you could have shown me that the draconian mass arrest 398 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: of drug users or even drug sellers had resulted in 399 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: lower levels of addiction, lower levels of drug purity, that um, 400 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 1: there were less drug corners in my city than there 401 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: than there are now. If you could have shown me 402 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: any progress, we could have had an argument. I could said, well, yeah, 403 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: it's really draconian. And you locked up a hundred thousand 404 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: people in Barnmore last year, and you've ruined a lot 405 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: of lives, and you've made criminal histories out of just 406 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: everybody between the age of you know, fifteen and twenty 407 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: five and congratulations, But yeah, you know, the out of 408 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: population has been diminished, and drugs are less available and 409 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: the purity is less. We could have an argument about 410 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: whether the draconian use of law enforcement had done anything. Instead, 411 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: everything's worse. And then I look across the aisle and 412 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 1: I say, what's the clearance rates for murder and for 413 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: robbery and for rape, for assault? Is my city more 414 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: or less livable? And Baltimore is now the most violent city, 415 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: one of the most violent cities in America. It's the 416 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 1: most violent it has ever been in modern history. You're 417 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: arresting half the number of people you used to arrest 418 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: for doing actual crimes against people. That police work has 419 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: died because there's no money in it. There's money and 420 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 1: grabbing everybody off the corner and throwing them into the 421 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: courthouse for no reason. That's how you get paid and 422 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: promoted as a police officer in Baltimore, Maryland. So that 423 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: part of it, you know, it's like I'm just you know, 424 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 1: just show me what you've accomplished, and show me what 425 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: you failed to accomplish, and I'll make a decision on 426 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: based on whether you're gonna keep doing this or not. 427 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: It'll be coaching. You know, that's my feeling on that 428 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: stupid crime makes for stupid cops. And there is no 429 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: there's nothing complex about an open air drug market. There's 430 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 1: just nothing. It's you know, crawl outside of a vacant 431 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: row house in Baltimore. You know, look down at your corner, 432 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: um watch for ten minutes, and you know who's working 433 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: with ground stash. Pull the wagon up. You know, you 434 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: could actually arrest at the right people if you want it, 435 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: or you don't even bother to do that, because what 436 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: does the Fourth Amendment mean in Baltimore anymore? Just jump 437 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: out on the corner, give this ground stash to the 438 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: guy standing close to it. Every you know, you make 439 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 1: your stats, they go to the courthouse. You get paid 440 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: because when you have to show up at court the 441 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: next morning. You know, when you're're working on four to 442 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: twelve the night before, you now in overtime. So you're 443 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: gonna get paid more than the guy who sits on 444 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: his post and tries to figure out who's been robbing 445 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: people in armed robberies or who's been breaking into the 446 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: churches and stealing stuff out of the churches. That guy, 447 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 1: you know, if he works that problem for a week 448 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: and a half, two weeks, three weeks, maybe gets one 449 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: arrest a month, and it goes into the computers and 450 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: one arrest. The other guy's got forty fifty sixty seventy 451 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: arrest loitering in a drug free zone, you know, distribution, 452 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: you know, possession with intent possession. He gets paid, the 453 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: other guy doesn't get paid. And then some some idiot 454 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 1: and planning in research who's trying to like assess who 455 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 1: should be promoted to sergeant or he goes to the 456 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 1: guy with forty ARUs is you know, hey, you're you're 457 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: a worker. You know you want to be a sergeant. 458 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: You want to run the drug unit. And that guy 459 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: ends up training the next generation of cops and not 460 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 1: how to not to do the job you want to solve. 461 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: You want to like be a cop and solve a 462 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 1: murder or solve a string of shootings. There are skill 463 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: sets utterly devoid of drug war. I mean, you need 464 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: to know how to work informants and not be worked 465 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: by informants. You need to know how to testify in 466 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: court without perjuring yourself. You need to know how to 467 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 1: write a search and seizure warrant. You need to know 468 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: how to use various forensic tools that that that don't 469 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: have any relation to the drug war. There basically skill 470 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: sets that don't have anything to do with drug prohibition, 471 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: and those things died. They died on the vine. When 472 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: I was covering the department in the late eighties and 473 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: through the nine you know, into the nineties, it's not 474 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: like every cop was great. You know, there were a 475 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: lot of guys who were humps, and they you know, 476 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: they couldn't make a case save their lives. But they 477 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: were usually in squads with one or two guys who 478 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: knew how to get a case through the courthouse. They 479 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: had the skill set, and so the whole squads would 480 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: actually be involved and maybe solving a case. So your 481 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: coronal clearance rate was sev which hey, you know that's 482 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: the national average, and maybe four out of ten of 483 00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: those once you shake it out of court, maybe four 484 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: at And people who kill somebody in Baltimore go to prison. 485 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: Nowadays it's it's and one out of ten is going 486 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,719 Speaker 1: to prison. No wonder we have three murders a year 487 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: instead of two thirty Because nobody had the drug war taught. 488 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: Everybody had to not do. Police working made for stupid 489 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: generations of cops, and then those generations, those those guys 490 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: are now the colonels and the majors. They're teaching the 491 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: lieutenants the wrong metrics, and the lieutenants are teaching the 492 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: guys on the street the wrong metrics. And the only 493 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: thing that it cost us was police work in America. 494 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: We'll be talking more after we hear this, adm Well, David, 495 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: So let's take into this both about Baltimore historically and 496 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: also contemporaneously. The drug war is raging, right. And I'm 497 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,120 Speaker 1: a first year assist professor at Princeton, and I write 498 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: these articles in prominent journals, basically saying the drug war 499 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: is bust and it's prohibition is the problem, and his 500 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: drug abuse is a problem, but prohibition is a failure, 501 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: is doing more harm than good. We have to change it, 502 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: and it's kind of hanging out there. And a month later, 503 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: the new mayor of Baltimore, Kerchmok, who had been the 504 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: former chief prosecutor black Man, throws away his speech at 505 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 1: the National Conference of Mayors and gives this really remarkable 506 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: speech saying, we have to put all alternatives on the table. 507 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: The drug war is bust, right, And at that point, 508 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, smoke and I became like a you know, 509 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: he was the Baltimore mayor. I was the Princeton academic 510 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: and we're out there, you know, debating Charlie Wrangel, the 511 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: Harlem congressman, on exactly you know. And but you know, 512 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: we're on all the TV shows, and he's on Oprah 513 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: and on and I'm on and we're on Donna Hue 514 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: and Ona Larry King and we're doing and then these 515 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: creates a task force, and I'm on part of his 516 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: task force, and I'm going to Baltimore and I see 517 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: him and for me, he really is one of my heroes. 518 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: You know, the fact of a young aspiring politician to 519 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: take that bowl, to stand and then not back away. 520 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 1: And I saw him struggling because he didn't have the 521 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: state's attorney with him, he didn't have his police chief. 522 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: He finally gets the police chief. Tom Fraser was willing 523 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,239 Speaker 1: to go along with some of this stuff. He has 524 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: to switch health commissioners. He's struggling on this stuff to 525 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: really make it. He's wanting he wants to get needle 526 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: exchange programs going to his HIV A s and he's 527 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 1: being condemned by the Black church leadership in his town. 528 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: And I want to know from where you were sitting 529 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: as a reporter, I mean, how did this look to you. 530 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: I don't know if you were covering smoke at that 531 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: point or just covering on the police stuff, But what 532 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: did it look like from where? From where you were 533 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: saying that it was a little more complicated if you 534 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: were on the ground Baltimore. I mean, I think the 535 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 1: smoke administration, by the way, a prophet without honor for 536 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: saying what he did about the drug war. I never 537 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: admired a politician more um. And he did managed to 538 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: get reelected become a I think the first three term 539 00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 1: mayor since Nancy Pelosi's father, Tom Dolllessandro. You know, Junior 540 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: are back in the late forties and fifties. So he 541 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: was I mean successful, but he cut off his broader 542 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: career in terms of going for He didn't make He 543 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: wasn't he wasn't considered for the Clinton cabinet. This young, 544 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 1: incredibly dynamic former prosecutor and big city mayor. He obviously 545 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: was a rising star in the Democratic Party, and that 546 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: did not materialize after he did what he did, and 547 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: he was vilified by wrangle and others, and you know, 548 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: and and tragically, so he was right, I mean, but then, 549 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: you know, I would not suggest that the Smoke administration 550 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 1: actually had a handle on its police department or had 551 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: any effect on the you know, I mean, I was 552 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I was a reporter on the ground. And 553 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 1: you know, Tom Fraser was a mess as a police 554 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: as a police commissioner, and the guy before him, that 555 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: the couple before him who were sort of in house, 556 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: they were not particularly uh insightful about anything at Eddie 557 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,479 Speaker 1: Eddie Woods and Edward Tilment and basically the police department. 558 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: It was business as usual. Was not like Smoke had 559 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 1: his hand on trying to affect policy. He basically raised 560 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 1: the idea in theory, and so we should be talking 561 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: about everything. But you know, the laws stayed the same. 562 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: And you know, by the way, the Baltimore mayor does 563 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: not control the state's turn that's a state position. And 564 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,360 Speaker 1: he doesn't control the laws either. I mean he could. 565 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's one thing to say the system. 566 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: It's one thing to say that that Smoke um. I mean, 567 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: he had he had the ability to you know, and 568 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: with Billinson and you know his later his later health Commission. 569 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: He had the ability to do some things on the 570 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: health side of it, but but the drug probation went 571 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: on unimpeded, and it continued to devour the police department 572 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: in the wrong ways. So I mean, I'm not I'm 573 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: not here to tell you that Kirk kerk Smoke, you know, 574 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: took a beat on the drug war in any substantive way. 575 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: He took a beat on it philosophically and in terms 576 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: of being an absolute truth teller. And his truth came 577 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: a lot. He came too early for anybody to um 578 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: credit it or for enough people to credit it, And 579 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: it came too early to save his political career because 580 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: he had basically spoken out against a status quo that listen, 581 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: in this country, when you say you're against drugs, or 582 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: you say you're hard on crime, you have a political career. 583 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: You know, when when you start talking in the amorphous 584 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: ways of rationalizing the reality of drug addiction and treating 585 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: it as a health dynamic. UM, that doesn't. That doesn't 586 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: land on voters the same way black or white. And 587 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: he had as much problem with um black community leaders 588 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: in Baltimore as he did with white and when he 589 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: when he started to suggesting stuff. And because the great 590 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: antagonist when once he went to Capitol Hill to argue 591 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: his point was Charlie Wrangle of all people, right, who 592 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: also chaired the Householect Committee and Narcotics and probably did 593 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: more to advance the drug war in Congress than any 594 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: Republican did back in those dates. Well, Hey, the Omnibus 595 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: crime under Clinton, it was a savage redressing of um 596 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: sentencing that that um, oh my god. I mean we're 597 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: still dealing with the fall from that. So in in 598 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: the new show We Own the City, the almost most 599 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: compelling and maybe central character, and this is all nonfiction, 600 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: is this sergeant I think, Wayne Jenkins, who is incredibly 601 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: sort of charismatic and corrupt. And there were there were 602 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: three things that struck me as I'm sort of watching 603 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: this show, David, I want to ask you about each 604 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: of these. You know, I remember when I was doing 605 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: my interviewing of d agents down in Latin America. I 606 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: remember talking, I think it was to one of the 607 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: guys who was the agent in charge in Bolivia, and 608 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: he told me about how folks in the government had 609 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: come to see him and they said, look, we want 610 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,239 Speaker 1: your input. We're going to appoint a new drugs are 611 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: and we essentially have two choices here. Choice A. You 612 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: know what we all know is he's totally clean, but 613 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: he's totally ineffective. Choice B. He's going to be corrupt, 614 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: but you can work with him, you can make cases. 615 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: And the d A guy basically said, you know, we 616 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: opted to pick Choice be the guy we knew to 617 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: be corrupt because we knew we could still work and 618 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: make major cases with him and take out some of 619 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: the bad guys, whereas with Kay with the first option, 620 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: we weren't going to get anywhere. And the Wayne Jenkins character, 621 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: as portrayed in the show, and I guess in the 622 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: book as well, that you based the show on, right, 623 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: is somebody who is remarkably good. He has a nose 624 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: for cases. And some of this involved the elements of 625 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: being dirty and corrupt, but some of it is actually 626 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: doing real police work the way that you would. You know, 627 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: there's an element of and that's an amazing cop, and 628 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: it's amazing of him. That's an incredibly evil cop. And 629 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: I wonder what was your sense about, you know, do 630 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: these things sometimes go hand in hand. I would be 631 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: wary of saying that, uh A lot of what Wayne 632 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: was doing was um, sort of legitimate police were coming. 633 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: This is a guy who's probable cause extended down to UM, 634 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: guys driving in an accurate and he's carrying a book bag. 635 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: That's probable cause. So in some ways Quyne could be 636 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: right and yet wrong in sort of the ethos of 637 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: what the constitution says you're supposed to do. But beyond 638 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: that he had real street instincts. He did um, and 639 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: he was charismatic, and he was very clever about the 640 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: use of information and informants, and he would he would 641 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: parlay arrest into information in a way that good cops 642 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: do for the right reasons. For him, it was often 643 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: parlaying it into you know, targets that he could then rob. 644 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: Wayne was permitted to become Wayne and then to maintain 645 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: himself in the authority he had in the department because 646 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: he put dope and guns on the table and they 647 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: were chasing in the in the error when he was 648 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,719 Speaker 1: at his height. Um, the sophistication of the police leadership 649 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: in Baltimore had at least changed from this point to 650 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: from point A to point B. Point A was put 651 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: dope on the table. They had come to realize that 652 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: putting drugs on the table meant nothing. You know, the 653 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: street value of everything is who gives a ship? You know, 654 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: it just doesn't matter. There's drugs everywhere, were saturated, you know, 655 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: getting a guy with a package means nothing. So to 656 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: try to reduce the violence, which was up one in Baltimore, 657 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: rather than make cases against shooters, which of course is 658 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: the hardest kind of police work, and the kind of 659 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: police worked it is really sustainable over the long term, 660 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: but requires skills, they were trying to just grab guns 661 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: and put guns on the table. The guns on the 662 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: table is a flawed metric. You know, it sounds better, Oh, 663 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: we got a bunch of guns. But of course it's 664 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: a gun saturated society. You know, every day they can 665 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: get a gun anywhere in Baltimore. So the idea of 666 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: just like targeting the guns. But Wayne could do that. 667 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: Wayne could put you know, a hundred forty guns in 668 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: six months, you know, on the table for the police department, 669 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: and he could make gun cases that might not hold 670 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: up in court, but we're nonetheless arrest stats. And so 671 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: he looked valuable and he looked incredibly valuable to police. 672 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: After Freddy Gray, which was the unattended death of a 673 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: man in the back of a police wagon in Baltimore, 674 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: which certainly was negligent um it resulted in in an 675 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: uprising or a riot, depending on your point of view. 676 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: And in the wake of that, the state's attorney kind 677 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 1: of overcharged the case, and she charged a bunch of 678 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: Fourth Amendment stuff that really he wasn't legit, but she, 679 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: you know, she rightly charged the death, but she actually 680 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: went after the officers who had made a a an 681 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,879 Speaker 1: arrest that was was going to hold up in court, 682 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: and she did that for political reasons. I don't have 683 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: to get into it. But in the wake of that, 684 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: the police department had sort of a job slow down, 685 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: and guys were not getting out of the cars to 686 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: even clear corners anymore. Because why would I do that 687 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: when the States Attorney might indict me criminally over an 688 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: argument over the Fourth Amendment. Where I might be right, 689 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: I might still get or if if I'm wrong, you know, 690 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: even even if I mess up on the Fourth Amendment, Jesus, 691 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court of the United States can't decide what 692 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 1: the Fourth Amendment means. They keep changing the rules every 693 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: every session. There's a new Fourth Amendment case, that changes 694 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: when we can make a terry stop or when I 695 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: can you know, when I can detain you, or when 696 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: I can question you. So the guys were basically saying, 697 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: why would I bother to even get out of the car, 698 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,720 Speaker 1: And there's this work slow down. So here here's Wayne, 699 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: who's just you know, still out in the street, still 700 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: putting guns to the table. They needed him even more. 701 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,359 Speaker 1: The city was a flame, nobody was doing police work. 702 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: The murderated skyrocketed, and here's Wayne and his group and 703 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: they're bringing guns in and they're bringing arrests. So he 704 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: had permission. Nobody was going to look seriously at him. 705 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: Well this this So there's two of the things that 706 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: fall from this, right. One is it made me think. 707 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: Obviously we talked about Freddy Gray and what happened in Baltimore, 708 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: you know, with his being killing and the and the 709 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: rioter uprising as you say, that followed that. But then 710 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: also there's significant jump in homicides in Baltimore from two 711 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: hundred four years and fifty year to over three hundred, 712 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: which is continued on for years to you know, for ever, 713 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,359 Speaker 1: in the years ever since now if you look sort 714 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: of jumped forward to what happened with George Floyd. Right, 715 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:44,280 Speaker 1: it almost seems like a Baltimore Freddy Gray's situation. That's 716 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: once again, you know, kind of got gotten the nationalized. Right, 717 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 1: So if you look just last year, right, I mean, 718 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: homicides have jumped so much in the past two years 719 00:35:53,120 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 1: because of the pandemic a lot of reasons. But in Philadelphia, Austin, Texas, Columbus, Ohio, Indianapolis, Portland, Oregon, meant, Louisville, Milwaukee, 720 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: Albuquerque too, sign all broke their pre existing records for 721 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: the most homicides ever. And the question rises is how 722 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: much of that is this sort of post Freddie I mean, 723 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: you make and we own the city. You point out 724 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 1: the kind of cops slowdown, you know all the reasons 725 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,919 Speaker 1: you just described for not wanting to take any risks 726 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: on the streets. Right, do you think there essentially was 727 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: a nationalization of this phenomenon with cops basically saying fuck it, like, 728 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: we're not gonna take any risk, We're not going to 729 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: do what we should do because we know community is 730 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,320 Speaker 1: not supporting us. But community is not supporting us, and 731 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: we're getting grief and we're the bad guys. But there's 732 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,760 Speaker 1: also a little bit of if we can't do police 733 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: work the right in legal way, we're not going to 734 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: do it at all. And what I would argue is 735 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: that the drug war, over the course of generations, basically 736 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: eroded everything that the Fourth Amendment stands for. And so 737 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: you don't have police who understand when you can legally 738 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: do it terry stop, or what the what the probable 739 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: causes they can allow them to detain somebody, or when 740 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: you have to mirandize somebody. These things became unimportant because 741 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 1: you know, a generation ago when these cops were coming 742 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: on the force in Baltimore, and I'm always gonna speak 743 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: to Baltimore, and I mean, you can't get me to 744 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: talk about what happened in to Soon if I'm not 745 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 1: from Tucson. But watching what happened in Baltimore. We had 746 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: a mayor, Marty O'Malley, who wanted to be governor very badly. 747 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: In fact, he wanted to be president, and he needed 748 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,359 Speaker 1: he needed a miracle in Baltimore. He needed to show 749 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: that he was the tough on crime. I solved the 750 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: problem of Baltimore and the and the street culture that 751 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: had been so destructive to the city, and so he 752 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: started to um arrest everybody, and by ever everybody, I 753 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: mean it was ridiculous. In a city of six hundred 754 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: thousand people, his police department a hundred thousand drug arrests 755 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: are not drug arrests, just all arrests in one year, 756 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 1: one out of every six people. By by per capita, 757 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously there were people who were lasted seven, eight, 758 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: ten times. But he basically was clearing the streets on 759 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 1: no probable cause. There were laws on the books by 760 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 1: this time, you know. And and for this we can 761 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: bless our city council that may basically make most of 762 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,320 Speaker 1: the inner city a quote drug free zone, meaning it 763 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 1: was like we've declared these ten blocks of Monument Street 764 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:16,959 Speaker 1: to be a drug free zone, meaning you can't loiter 765 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 1: in them. That's insane that if you if you understand 766 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: the Fourth Amendment, you know, wait a second, I live 767 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: here on this block. You're saying I can't walk. You're well, 768 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 1: you can walk, But are you gonna stand out here 769 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: in your stoop? Yeah, I'm gonna stand. It's just it's 770 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 1: a nice day. I'm gonna stand out here on my steps. 771 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: You're going to jail O'Malley's theory was insane that it 772 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: may sound. Was if I can lock everybody up who's 773 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 1: standing hanging around on the street, they can't shoot each other, 774 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,359 Speaker 1: and I'll get the murders down under two hundred, as 775 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,279 Speaker 1: I promised. If they're in their houses, they're not gonna 776 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 1: shoot each other. They're gonna shoot each other on the street. 777 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: That's what the police commanders were told. So we locked 778 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: up a hundred thousand people, and the Fourth Amendment we 779 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 1: trained a whole generation of cops how not to basically 780 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: police legally. To me, it's not like I don't want 781 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 1: to do police work because you don't support me. It's 782 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: I don't want to do police work because I don't 783 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 1: know how to do police work. I no longer understand 784 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: the difference between somebody who truly is loitering and and 785 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: and who for a basic loitering statute, might you know 786 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 1: as fragile as loitering is as as a I mean, 787 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,720 Speaker 1: there's a there's enough abuse of that statute, of course, 788 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:21,359 Speaker 1: but I don't even have to think about what I'm 789 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,360 Speaker 1: seeing them doing, or how long they're doing it, or 790 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: whether or not there in any way have given me 791 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: probable cause to suspect that they're trafficking in drugs on 792 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: this corner. It got to the point of you're here, 793 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,399 Speaker 1: I got you in the wagon. You go And those 794 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 1: are the cops who um those those became a generation later, 795 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,319 Speaker 1: the cops who are in the gun Traced Task Force. 796 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 1: Phil When when O'Malley is campaigning for mayor in of Baltimore, 797 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 1: you know a schmoke is retiring from being mayor. He's 798 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: holding up your book the corner. I know at the 799 00:39:53,840 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: same time that he's saying drug dealer that yes, I listen, 800 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,840 Speaker 1: I can't. I mean O'Malley quite frankly. Then he becomes governor. 801 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you back in two thousand and seven, 802 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 1: I we had my Drug Policy Alliance. We had some 803 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: lobbyists working for us in Annapolis, the state capital. There 804 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: was a very minor parole reform bill. Uh O'Malley had 805 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: told our allies he was gonna sign the thing. I 806 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 1: think maybe, David, you may even have submitted written testimony 807 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: in that case. You know, it looked like we were 808 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 1: just about there, but he surrounded himself with all all 809 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: the I think so with all these former prosecutors and 810 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: he vetoed the damn thing, and so I always saw 811 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 1: O'Malley and also his repudiation of Schmoke. Yeah, I mean 812 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:36,960 Speaker 1: it was just about him when he ran for president. 813 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: I mean, any were any access I had to any 814 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 1: influential Democrats to damn him, I did because I just 815 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: think he was a hypocrite. You know, people think it's 816 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 1: personal and and look I had some dust ups tossed 817 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: ups with him over filming the wire in Baltimore that 818 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: you know, we're hilarious in their own right. But you know, 819 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a trained reporter. I don't take stuff personally. 820 00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: I saw him alreaty on the train a long time 821 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 1: after we had our beefs, and like I bought him 822 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:03,800 Speaker 1: a beer and we sat there and we shot the 823 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: ship and it was like, you know, it's fine. You know, 824 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: we both like Irish music. It's great, you know. But 825 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,320 Speaker 1: the problem is is he was one of the fundamental 826 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,320 Speaker 1: forces that for political gain and for a very naive 827 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: sense of how he could reduce violence. Um to credit 828 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,800 Speaker 1: him at all with a decent motive. He really impaired 829 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,320 Speaker 1: that police department. He taught them things and he showed 830 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: them they could do things that that they should never 831 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: have gone down that path, although although there was a 832 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: drop right in a homicide raider in the first few years. 833 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,920 Speaker 1: And I guess he had a police commission at Norris 834 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 1: who was pretty good and then he got in trouble 835 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,359 Speaker 1: but became one of the actors on your TV show, 836 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,919 Speaker 1: I believe. So he had a brief phase he had well, 837 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 1: he had a uh maybe a decline in homicides, which 838 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: you know, he brought in Eddie Norris, who was had 839 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 1: been a detective sergeant work in murders. Like Eddie Norris 840 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,680 Speaker 1: understood police work, probably the last police commissioner we had 841 00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 1: who truly understood that, you know, the way you reduced 842 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:01,719 Speaker 1: crime is by knowing who's doing the bad stuff and 843 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 1: you know, getting a warrant for the right guy and 844 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 1: kicking at his door four in the morning and arresting 845 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,520 Speaker 1: him for doing what he did. That was that he 846 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,399 Speaker 1: Norris's sort of d n A from from his time 847 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:14,719 Speaker 1: in New York. You know, he was he was in 848 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 1: New York at the time that they were doing that 849 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: kind of work. And to his credit, I would say, 850 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: you know, left to his own devices, he he got 851 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:29,800 Speaker 1: a probable meaning meaning I believe it actually happened reduction 852 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: in violence over the first couple of years of the 853 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,400 Speaker 1: Omaliy administration. It wasn't enough to get down to the 854 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 1: campaign promise of less than two murders a year. I 855 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:40,360 Speaker 1: think it got it down to from the three hundreds 856 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,319 Speaker 1: to to seventy. But when the orders started coming from 857 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: city Hall to lock everybody up and mass arrest and 858 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 1: and do what they did in New York or you know, 859 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 1: do do a Giuliani and lock everybody up for you know, 860 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: spitting on the sidewalk, Norris resisted, and Norris said, that's 861 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: not it's not only not police work, it's a waste 862 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 1: of resources, and eventually had a falling out and he 863 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: left and a string of police reporters who were willing 864 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 1: to do that kind of Actually Kevin Clark, now Kevin 865 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:09,680 Speaker 1: Clark was also from New York. He had a problem 866 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 1: with it. And Kevin Clark found out about the cooking 867 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: of the stats that happened to because here's the other 868 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,360 Speaker 1: thing about them all is he had a reduction in murders, 869 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,840 Speaker 1: but he had like a forty reduction in serious assaults 870 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,440 Speaker 1: and aggravated assaults and shootings, but especially aggravated assaults. No, 871 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,960 Speaker 1: you can't do that. It's statistically impossible. Either. That means 872 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,760 Speaker 1: either that the people shooting guns in Baltimore are becoming 873 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,240 Speaker 1: um worst shots. They're not, They're not firing as lethally 874 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: as they did in previous generations. They somehow you know, 875 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,680 Speaker 1: you can't use their handguns anymore, or your trauma units 876 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 1: are now saving triple the numbers that they were saving, 877 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:55,520 Speaker 1: you know the year prior, of course, And well he 878 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 1: did hilarious stuff, I mean Schmokes last year. He went 879 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,279 Speaker 1: back into smokes last year of police stats and said, oh, 880 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 1: you guys miscalculated, and he basically reclassified a bunch of 881 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,360 Speaker 1: common assaults under Smokes here as aggravator assaults. So that 882 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 1: then when his numbers came down a little bit, he 883 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 1: could make it look like his numbers came down a lot. 884 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,440 Speaker 1: I mean, Marty was so dirty with the status. Yeah 885 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: a few as he was guy was already running for 886 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 1: mayor and he was already composing his position paper on 887 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:26,759 Speaker 1: how he fixed Baltimore. Let me pull you, let me 888 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:28,520 Speaker 1: put you away for this for a second. So if 889 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,320 Speaker 1: you look at the drug arrest stats over the last 890 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:35,120 Speaker 1: few years, what you see is there's still a significant 891 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,280 Speaker 1: racial disproportionality, with blacks much more likely to get arrested 892 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 1: even for things in which whites engaged in at equal rates. Right, 893 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: but it's declining, and the major reason has been a 894 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 1: significant increase by the hundreds of thousands in the number 895 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,520 Speaker 1: of people being arrested for meth amphetamy and offenses in 896 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 1: recent years, which is primarily white people. So the hypothetical 897 00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,920 Speaker 1: for you, David is could you envision doing either looking 898 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:05,799 Speaker 1: looking retrospectively or prospectively doing a show that actually focused 899 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:07,480 Speaker 1: in the way you did in the wire Are we 900 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 1: on this city on the white metho anthetamy drug scene? 901 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:12,959 Speaker 1: I mean, because it also has a way of showing 902 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,920 Speaker 1: how the this issue is as much about class as 903 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: it is about race. Very much. It's very much. And yeah, 904 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,440 Speaker 1: I listen, you could start at any point and make 905 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,759 Speaker 1: the same show. At this point, I would say that 906 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 1: the um the increase in targeting of a white drug 907 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:34,359 Speaker 1: activity because the methode epidemic is has given a generational 908 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,360 Speaker 1: bump to the drug war, is that what seemed to 909 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:43,839 Speaker 1: be overtly racist um and and targeted towards people of color, 910 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,440 Speaker 1: is now raw class control. It's now just you know, 911 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:49,880 Speaker 1: are you poor, are you marginalized? Are you at the 912 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,719 Speaker 1: economic fringe of society? You know, are you do you 913 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:55,400 Speaker 1: have one hand on a drug? That is something that 914 00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 1: has given the drug war a sufficient bump incredibility, you know, 915 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,799 Speaker 1: lock up more white people and we can keep doing this. Um. 916 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,799 Speaker 1: And it's the opposite of the simplicity of the drug 917 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,800 Speaker 1: war is a racist enterprise looked. Drug probation was always 918 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,719 Speaker 1: targeted towards feared, feared groups. I mean, you know, the 919 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 1: first I think the first drug statutes in this country 920 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,720 Speaker 1: were anti yellow peril opium denis on the West coast, 921 00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,920 Speaker 1: you know, anti Chinese legislation, and then that goes back, 922 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: you know, into the nineteenth century. But I think beyond 923 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,360 Speaker 1: that right now there's a general class war going on again, 924 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,920 Speaker 1: and poor whites are happily included. Um. But having said that, 925 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: you know, if you got if you'd talked to me 926 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,960 Speaker 1: about the Baltimore Police Department of the nine sixties or 927 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:46,440 Speaker 1: nine fifties or nineties, um, it was ruthlessly racist and 928 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,640 Speaker 1: and almost proudly so. UM. And at the moment that 929 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,319 Speaker 1: it started to have to integrate, you would have thought 930 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 1: that that would have humanized in some basic way the 931 00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,160 Speaker 1: police response. My argument is the reason it didn't was 932 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,400 Speaker 1: that there was this overlay of drug prohibition that allowed 933 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:08,000 Speaker 1: the dehumanization to become systemic, even at the point at 934 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,840 Speaker 1: which that you were reducing the racial disparity in the department. 935 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,440 Speaker 1: And you know, one of the guys, one of the 936 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,640 Speaker 1: saddest interviews I ever did in my life, was Bishop Robinson. 937 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:19,759 Speaker 1: He rose to the rank of being the Secretary of 938 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,440 Speaker 1: Public Safety for Maryland under under William Donald Shaeffer. He 939 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,239 Speaker 1: came on the Baltimore Department like in nineteen fifty one 940 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,440 Speaker 1: and was of course young black officer. He got involved, 941 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,400 Speaker 1: He got involved with the old bn d D actually 942 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,279 Speaker 1: for a while and and was doing undercovers with them. 943 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:35,359 Speaker 1: So he was early on in the in the drug 944 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,320 Speaker 1: Ian nineteen fifty one, my god, and he sort of 945 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:39,840 Speaker 1: fought the drug war, and he was one of the 946 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,440 Speaker 1: guys who was there. He was the first black police 947 00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:46,000 Speaker 1: commissioner in Baltimore that would have been the mid eighties, 948 00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,279 Speaker 1: and then became the secretary of the Secretary of Public 949 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,799 Speaker 1: Safety later on. He supervised a lot of the drug 950 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,080 Speaker 1: war and a lot of the building of new prisons 951 00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:56,960 Speaker 1: in Maryland when they were trying to arrest their way 952 00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,320 Speaker 1: out of the cocaine epidemic in the in the eighties, 953 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,720 Speaker 1: early nineties, Speci particularly the nineties, and when he was retired, 954 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,040 Speaker 1: I sat across from an Italian restaurant in Baltimore and 955 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,080 Speaker 1: he looked at me and he said, the drug war 956 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,719 Speaker 1: was a total mistake, the total mistake. We it led 957 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,160 Speaker 1: us all, it led us wrong, the whole way. So 958 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 1: just a disaster. We should have never we should have 959 00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,440 Speaker 1: never gone there. And of course he's retired, he's speaking quietly. 960 00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,000 Speaker 1: Nobody ever says it when they have the job. That's 961 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,440 Speaker 1: the hard but he but he was sincere and it 962 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,160 Speaker 1: was it was a guy who had given his life 963 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,160 Speaker 1: to it. You know. Let's take a break here and 964 00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:44,600 Speaker 1: go to an ad. The other interesting thing when I 965 00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:49,000 Speaker 1: think about The Wire are those episodes involving Hamster damn right, 966 00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:51,520 Speaker 1: the sort of where the cops say, let's hell, allow 967 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,760 Speaker 1: an open air place where the junkies and the dealers 968 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:56,560 Speaker 1: and every bills can gather and we'll get him off 969 00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:01,160 Speaker 1: the neighboring streets. And interestingly it's called Hamsterdam, although the 970 00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,360 Speaker 1: real model is more sort of Needle Park from Zurich, 971 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:06,520 Speaker 1: which is where you actually had a kind of open 972 00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:08,719 Speaker 1: air scene like that. But I wonder how did you 973 00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,560 Speaker 1: come up with that idea for that? Well, look, the 974 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,279 Speaker 1: addiction is not going to go away, and and you 975 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,440 Speaker 1: know ed and I had seen um what the culture 976 00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:20,320 Speaker 1: of addiction had had done to that neighborhood when we 977 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,040 Speaker 1: were reporting the quarters. So the idea that you can 978 00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,520 Speaker 1: just leave it be and not not respond to it 979 00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:30,080 Speaker 1: as a society is disastrous. But the idea that you 980 00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:31,759 Speaker 1: can chase it all over the world and try to 981 00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,520 Speaker 1: arrestorate it problem is also insane. So what might you 982 00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:37,960 Speaker 1: plausibly do if you're a city like Baltimore, And we 983 00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:39,920 Speaker 1: thought about it, we said if they could in some 984 00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:44,879 Speaker 1: way practice harm reduction geographically and basically say, look, we're 985 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:46,960 Speaker 1: not going to mess with you if you're selling or 986 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,400 Speaker 1: buying drugs in these areas because these are you know, 987 00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:53,279 Speaker 1: these are devoid of residents, devoid of you know, we 988 00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:54,800 Speaker 1: we have a lot of brown fields and bottom we 989 00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,480 Speaker 1: have a lot of excess real estate right now, it's 990 00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,359 Speaker 1: devoid of commercial strips or schools. You know, we're doing 991 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:04,480 Speaker 1: less damage then fighting you where we're fighting you and 992 00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,920 Speaker 1: and and not achieving anything. And then maybe we start 993 00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,239 Speaker 1: putting social programs down there, and maybe we start doing 994 00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,480 Speaker 1: you know, addiction outreach, and maybe we start doing community 995 00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:15,640 Speaker 1: outreach and and and try to reach people and try 996 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,360 Speaker 1: to pull them from addiction. But while they're in the 997 00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:22,000 Speaker 1: act of throws of addiction, they're not destroying neighborhoods. And 998 00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,600 Speaker 1: the drug wars not destroying neighborhoods, and so and I 999 00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:26,520 Speaker 1: came up with the idea and said, what if the 1000 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:28,759 Speaker 1: commander tried to do this on a small scale, what 1001 00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 1: would it look like? And I don't think we pulled 1002 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,799 Speaker 1: the punch about making it making Hamsterdam the actual area 1003 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,400 Speaker 1: that we conceived of, you know, an area of vacant 1004 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:41,320 Speaker 1: row houses and whe else, as horrific as it would be, 1005 00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:43,279 Speaker 1: because I mean, you know, we and I have been 1006 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,840 Speaker 1: through the shooting galleries of of Franklin Square over West Bottomwore. 1007 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,400 Speaker 1: We've seen what addiction looked like and what sort of 1008 00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,840 Speaker 1: masked you know, a drug market does to a neighborhood. 1009 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,279 Speaker 1: So we weren't trying to pull the punch or say 1010 00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:58,399 Speaker 1: it was gonna be pretty or saying it was gonna 1011 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,560 Speaker 1: you know, it was gonna result, you know, sunshine and 1012 00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,359 Speaker 1: warm feelings. But we were really interested in the notion 1013 00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:07,960 Speaker 1: of what might you do if, if if if if 1014 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:14,000 Speaker 1: reducing the harm of drug addiction was your goal societally, 1015 00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,440 Speaker 1: and the idea of you know, arresting everybody and and 1016 00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:21,160 Speaker 1: basically um carrying on this war was not your goal. 1017 00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,680 Speaker 1: And so that's how much were you aware of what 1018 00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:27,000 Speaker 1: was going on in Europe in this regard because you know, 1019 00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,360 Speaker 1: we think about it. Yeah, we knew about Cirk and 1020 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:32,920 Speaker 1: we knew about you know, they're obviously liberalizations in the 1021 00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,440 Speaker 1: Netherlands had already occurred, and and and Portugal was on 1022 00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:38,719 Speaker 1: the way. I mean, yeah, I mean there were other 1023 00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,399 Speaker 1: people who were doing a better job of trying to rationalize. 1024 00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,160 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, David, I'll tell you, in terms 1025 00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:46,560 Speaker 1: of the empirical evidence we do, you typically see is 1026 00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,600 Speaker 1: that the early phases of the decriminalized seeing like that 1027 00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,560 Speaker 1: are almost the optimal drug policy because it doesn't bring 1028 00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:56,200 Speaker 1: all the risks that come with full legalization. I mean 1029 00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,680 Speaker 1: that if she has benefits as well, but also problems 1030 00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:01,200 Speaker 1: in terms of mass marketing, But you're doing away with 1031 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:03,320 Speaker 1: most of the harms of prohibition. And so if you 1032 00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,200 Speaker 1: look at what the Dutch did with the cannabis coffee shops, 1033 00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:07,600 Speaker 1: if you look at what they did in the neighbor 1034 00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,959 Speaker 1: of Christiana in Denmark where they had an opener marijuana saying, 1035 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,120 Speaker 1: if you look at the first year of Needle Park, 1036 00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,760 Speaker 1: these were all highly successful. But then what happens after 1037 00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,399 Speaker 1: a few years is that the gangsters essentially take over, 1038 00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,480 Speaker 1: the criminal organizations take over the marijuana growing, the biker 1039 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,160 Speaker 1: gangs get involved in the production, in the production side, 1040 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:27,960 Speaker 1: you know, all this sort of stuff. But I thought 1041 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,440 Speaker 1: it was fascinating when when you did that, and if, 1042 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,240 Speaker 1: by the way, if you have a real police response 1043 00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,600 Speaker 1: where they know how to do do casework, then you 1044 00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:38,040 Speaker 1: can try to interdict that. And one of the things 1045 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:42,080 Speaker 1: that Ed Burns, my writing partner and former police detective. 1046 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,040 Speaker 1: One of the things that he said, which I found 1047 00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,440 Speaker 1: really insightful, was if you could just put it up 1048 00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,160 Speaker 1: to the assistant states attorneys the prosecutors that when you 1049 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,560 Speaker 1: grow brought in a drug arrest, they basically asked you, 1050 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,440 Speaker 1: why did you arrest this guy? And if your answer 1051 00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:00,200 Speaker 1: was I was standing there and he was most to 1052 00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,320 Speaker 1: the groutstay you know you stay, I saw him. Cop drugs, 1053 00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:07,560 Speaker 1: and like, I'm not signing your overtime slip. Go back 1054 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,600 Speaker 1: out and get me something better. If you could do that, 1055 00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:12,920 Speaker 1: you'd start to fix the police department, you know, if 1056 00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:14,840 Speaker 1: you But if the guy comes in and says, this 1057 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:16,759 Speaker 1: is a guy I think, you know, I think he's 1058 00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:18,279 Speaker 1: hooked up with this guy, and I think and I 1059 00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,120 Speaker 1: think these guys shot three people in my post, and 1060 00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:22,239 Speaker 1: like the guy has a reason why he targeted the 1061 00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,680 Speaker 1: arrest and he says that, and and basically it's credible 1062 00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:27,759 Speaker 1: enough and he basically makes enough of a case so 1063 00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,080 Speaker 1: that you're listening to somebody's trying to do police work. 1064 00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:32,959 Speaker 1: All right, all right, well let's try to make this case. 1065 00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,680 Speaker 1: In some ways, I realized that you're you're dangerously close 1066 00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,399 Speaker 1: to something called selective prosecution. And it's got it's out 1067 00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,520 Speaker 1: in problems. But but basically, the idea of a stat 1068 00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:44,319 Speaker 1: is a stat is what got you there? Is if 1069 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:45,840 Speaker 1: if your response to what you're talking about is to 1070 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:49,120 Speaker 1: march through the Christiana neighborhood and Copenhagen and basically say 1071 00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,440 Speaker 1: I'm gonna rerest everybody, good luck that you know, that's 1072 00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:54,680 Speaker 1: not gonna work. That's not gonna do anything. On the 1073 00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:57,759 Speaker 1: other end, if you say, we've got a violent, a 1074 00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:01,080 Speaker 1: bunch of gangsters who are now encroaching. Who are they? 1075 00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:04,520 Speaker 1: How do we get them out? How do we extract them? 1076 00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:08,279 Speaker 1: How do we make business for them? Problematic? Wow, that's 1077 00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:10,160 Speaker 1: you know what they call that, They call that police work. 1078 00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,239 Speaker 1: M So I think you and I had somewhat similar reactions, 1079 00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,920 Speaker 1: um to the rise of the phrase defund the police. 1080 00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:20,920 Speaker 1: But why don't I just you know, you say how 1081 00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,560 Speaker 1: you perceived that phrase, both in terms of what's good 1082 00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,879 Speaker 1: about it and what's bad about it? And there's nothing 1083 00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:29,080 Speaker 1: good about it. Um, it's it's a it's a it's 1084 00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,960 Speaker 1: a politically disastrous phrase. I understand the impulse, which is 1085 00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:37,359 Speaker 1: these police agencies soak up resources that we could put 1086 00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,440 Speaker 1: some of these We could put these resources back into 1087 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,160 Speaker 1: the communities in ways that might be meaningful. But the 1088 00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:45,840 Speaker 1: way that lands on a voting popular specifically in a 1089 00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:48,320 Speaker 1: time where crime rates arising, is are you out of 1090 00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:50,200 Speaker 1: your mind? And by the way, I'm not talking about 1091 00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:52,600 Speaker 1: like white suburbanites freaking out. I mean you go into 1092 00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,080 Speaker 1: the inter city and talk to residents in West and 1093 00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:58,919 Speaker 1: East Baltimore, Pimlico or Cherry hill, you know, people of color, 1094 00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:00,839 Speaker 1: and they're like, I don't want the police to fund 1095 00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,239 Speaker 1: and I want them to come when I call um. 1096 00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:07,200 Speaker 1: The equivocation and defund the police is thinking that all 1097 00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:11,279 Speaker 1: the police do is over police. These neighborhoods, um they 1098 00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,640 Speaker 1: over police people of color. And that is absolutely true 1099 00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,960 Speaker 1: in one sense, which is that which shouldn't matter, that 1100 00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:23,640 Speaker 1: which constitutes harassment, that which constitutes racial profiling, that which 1101 00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:26,719 Speaker 1: constitutes um. The police work that should not occur and 1102 00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,879 Speaker 1: should not be rewarded in America does occur, and these 1103 00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:34,960 Speaker 1: communities are brutally and uselessly over policed. Then when somebody 1104 00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:38,640 Speaker 1: shoots someone, or when somebody's church is broken into her, 1105 00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:41,640 Speaker 1: when somebody's raped or robbed, and you want the police 1106 00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:45,359 Speaker 1: to come and you want them to respond, nobody shows up, 1107 00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:46,840 Speaker 1: or if they do show up, they don't have the 1108 00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,200 Speaker 1: skill set to arrest anybody. And by the way, these 1109 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,719 Speaker 1: neighborhoods a lot of times like they know who's doing, 1110 00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:53,799 Speaker 1: like you know, they're scared of this. All the guys. 1111 00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:55,960 Speaker 1: The guy stays on the corner, the police corps goes by. 1112 00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:59,040 Speaker 1: He just stabbed someone yesterday, he stabbed somebody three weeks 1113 00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:02,000 Speaker 1: earlier and you and nobody comes and gets him, nobody 1114 00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,239 Speaker 1: takes out the trash, when when the neighborhood wants that 1115 00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:08,200 Speaker 1: trash taken out, and so at that poment that neighborhood 1116 00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,359 Speaker 1: is savagely under police. And a woman named joel Leevie 1117 00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,360 Speaker 1: wrote a great book out of South central l A 1118 00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:18,120 Speaker 1: called Ghetto Side about what happens when there is no 1119 00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:22,080 Speaker 1: meaningful societal response to same murder and and when these 1120 00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:25,200 Speaker 1: neighborhoods don't receive a police response that results in any 1121 00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,480 Speaker 1: kind of response from the justice system. What happens is 1122 00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,160 Speaker 1: the attributed violence shows up on the only the only 1123 00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:33,120 Speaker 1: way you can handle the fact that somebody killed somebody 1124 00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:34,600 Speaker 1: in your family or your friends, or it might be 1125 00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:37,320 Speaker 1: gun for you, is to gun for them. Happening in 1126 00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:41,239 Speaker 1: Mexico and Central American of course, and exactly right. So 1127 00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,439 Speaker 1: so basically like defund is is, this is this notion 1128 00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:47,840 Speaker 1: of the police can't solve anything. Well, I'm sorry, but 1129 00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:50,880 Speaker 1: you know, the police in my time, caring the police forment, 1130 00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,960 Speaker 1: they solved seven out of ten murders and by the 1131 00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:55,520 Speaker 1: time it shook out of the court as four at 1132 00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:58,320 Speaker 1: ten people went to jail and so you had a 1133 00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,680 Speaker 1: murder rate of two twenty who are thirty in a 1134 00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:03,000 Speaker 1: city of seven hundred thousand. Now I got a hundred 1135 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,920 Speaker 1: thousand people less in my city. They saw of the 1136 00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,800 Speaker 1: murders and it's one of the ten probably goes to 1137 00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,000 Speaker 1: prison on those on that casework. And the murder rate 1138 00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:14,239 Speaker 1: is three fifty. And we're as violent as we've ever 1139 00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:17,680 Speaker 1: been in modern history. Here's my motto, change the mission, 1140 00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:20,920 Speaker 1: not defund, not abolished. I don't want you to park 1141 00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,440 Speaker 1: the police. Tell the police you want them to do 1142 00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:26,320 Speaker 1: this and not this. You don't want them to over 1143 00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,440 Speaker 1: police the drug where you stop stop stupid. I mean, 1144 00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:31,480 Speaker 1: I agree. I think that you know, defund the police 1145 00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:33,240 Speaker 1: was one of the greatest gifts to the right wing 1146 00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:37,760 Speaker 1: in America that chant is ever delivered. And the cutting 1147 00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,400 Speaker 1: stupid drug war stuff and stupid overtime pay would be meaningful. 1148 00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:43,040 Speaker 1: Tell us that. I know you said you're not an 1149 00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,720 Speaker 1: expert other cities, but you know a few years ago 1150 00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:47,880 Speaker 1: you came up to my city, New York, and you 1151 00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:51,000 Speaker 1: got an award from the Osborne Association, which is a 1152 00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:54,280 Speaker 1: great organization doing criminal justice reform work here, and you 1153 00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:58,920 Speaker 1: called New York the death star of mass incarceration. Now, 1154 00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:00,640 Speaker 1: you know, I look at my city, were in my 1155 00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,240 Speaker 1: state where we went crazy on the drug war back 1156 00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:04,920 Speaker 1: in the late eighties and early nineties, and then we 1157 00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:07,520 Speaker 1: rolled back to drug war. My organization led the way 1158 00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,200 Speaker 1: on reforming the Rockefeller drug laws. But I remember a 1159 00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:14,120 Speaker 1: few years ago you had as many or more murders 1160 00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,360 Speaker 1: or homicides in Baltimore one year as we had in 1161 00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:21,960 Speaker 1: New Year. Our population has ten times the size of yours. 1162 00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:23,840 Speaker 1: So what did you mean by the death star of 1163 00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,240 Speaker 1: the I was referring to. Yeah, what I was referring 1164 00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,400 Speaker 1: to is the export from New York of the of 1165 00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:32,200 Speaker 1: the ideology of zero tolerance and of if they show 1166 00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:35,000 Speaker 1: up to squeeze your wind showed as you come out 1167 00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,880 Speaker 1: of the Midtown Tunnel, arrest them, the broken windows theory 1168 00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:41,400 Speaker 1: of of Rudy Giuliani. And you know that's not what 1169 00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:43,440 Speaker 1: you know. You want to know the things that reduced 1170 00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:46,840 Speaker 1: crime greatly in New York, I know them, which is 1171 00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:53,280 Speaker 1: one an incredible emphasis on actual police work, on debriefing 1172 00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:59,320 Speaker 1: everybody you arrest for a crime, and prizing information above 1173 00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:02,880 Speaker 1: all the guys who basically championed that in the eighties, 1174 00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:07,200 Speaker 1: Um defined police working in the proper way. And that 1175 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:09,200 Speaker 1: happened in New York. I mean, you couldn't be it. 1176 00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:11,240 Speaker 1: You couldn't get a gold shield in New York without 1177 00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,080 Speaker 1: having I think too registered informants who were good, who 1178 00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:18,080 Speaker 1: gave you information. The the idea that making cases actually 1179 00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:22,840 Speaker 1: um led to police careers. It wasn't revolutionary, it was basic, 1180 00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:26,120 Speaker 1: but it was heralded in New York. Um and that 1181 00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:28,560 Speaker 1: that was one thing. And the other thing is, look, 1182 00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:30,600 Speaker 1: you guys had Wall Street. You know if Wall Street 1183 00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:33,440 Speaker 1: were North Avenue in Baltimore and North Avenue Wall Street, 1184 00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:36,200 Speaker 1: you know my city would be doing fine too. Because 1185 00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:38,520 Speaker 1: you have a thirty year run up on Wall Street. 1186 00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,120 Speaker 1: The money has to come back somewhere. And they basically 1187 00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:45,880 Speaker 1: rebuilt um huge tracks of Manhattan and much of the 1188 00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,720 Speaker 1: outer bus And you know, I mean, I listen. I 1189 00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:50,880 Speaker 1: I worked in New York in the late seventies, and 1190 00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:53,880 Speaker 1: I remember trying to go buy weed and Thompson Square 1191 00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:56,760 Speaker 1: and they sold me a bag of oregano and and 1192 00:59:57,600 --> 00:59:59,600 Speaker 1: I was happy to have it because I wasn't dead 1193 01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,680 Speaker 1: and be killed. And I went and smoked my cooking 1194 01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:07,240 Speaker 1: product because um uh, because I celebrate the fact that 1195 01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:11,040 Speaker 1: I had, you know, managed to live whereas I had 1196 01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:15,720 Speaker 1: that experience David and Damn Square and Amsterdam. Well, I'm 1197 01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:17,400 Speaker 1: saying the only thing that the only thing that can 1198 01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:20,520 Speaker 1: mugg you in Tompkins Square after after the transformation of 1199 01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:24,120 Speaker 1: New York because of money, because of capital, because they've 1200 01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:28,400 Speaker 1: rebuilt the entire city on wealth that doesn't exist for 1201 01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:30,960 Speaker 1: other second tier American cities. The only can mugg you 1202 01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,880 Speaker 1: in Tompkin Square now is a three star restaurant. I mean, 1203 01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,400 Speaker 1: you know, the physical transformation of New York has to 1204 01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:41,560 Speaker 1: do with mass capital, rebuilding a city for fun and profit, 1205 01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:44,880 Speaker 1: and Baltimore doesn't have that, and St. Louis and Cleveland, 1206 01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:47,280 Speaker 1: we don't have those same options. You know. That's the 1207 01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:50,960 Speaker 1: that's econ of reality. That coupled with the NYPD still 1208 01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:54,840 Speaker 1: being in a police agency that values information and values 1209 01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:57,840 Speaker 1: information over a lot of other things that police, you know, 1210 01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:03,040 Speaker 1: departments have misvalued in other places. Uh, those are powerful forces. 1211 01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:07,440 Speaker 1: So I'm curious. You have your local prosecutor, Marilyn Mosby, right, 1212 01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:09,320 Speaker 1: I mean, and you pointed out she made a mistake 1213 01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,280 Speaker 1: on overcharging on the pretty great case, but she's been 1214 01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:16,200 Speaker 1: one of the pioneering progressive prosecutors when it comes to 1215 01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:20,760 Speaker 1: decriminalizing drug possession offenses and some other things. And what 1216 01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,240 Speaker 1: do you think about those current policies she's trying to do. 1217 01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:25,120 Speaker 1: And have the police been willing to go along withem 1218 01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:27,200 Speaker 1: or do they have no choice because the prosecutors want 1219 01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:29,960 Speaker 1: charge the crimes way up in Baltimore. But I don't 1220 01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,440 Speaker 1: think the crime's way up for that reason. I think 1221 01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:35,439 Speaker 1: the crime is way up because they can't make a case. 1222 01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:38,800 Speaker 1: They can't make the case they and Mosby's office is 1223 01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:41,200 Speaker 1: a shambles and and a lot of the veteran prosecutors 1224 01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:44,920 Speaker 1: have walked away, and she will not bring cases into 1225 01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:48,160 Speaker 1: court because a the police work is bad, but also 1226 01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:51,360 Speaker 1: she's abandoned the basic mission of being a prosecutor. It's 1227 01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:53,680 Speaker 1: one thing to say I'm going to be progressive and 1228 01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:56,400 Speaker 1: I'm not going to I'm not gonna be dragging mass 1229 01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,640 Speaker 1: arrest through my courthouse. That's, you know. I admire that. 1230 01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:03,160 Speaker 1: On the other hand, there are places where you're using 1231 01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:07,160 Speaker 1: charges as leverage to make real cases, and again a 1232 01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:09,280 Speaker 1: blanket statement where you're not going to use what's on 1233 01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:11,800 Speaker 1: the books so that somebody becomes a witness in a 1234 01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:16,760 Speaker 1: shooting or in a rape or robbery. Um, that's problematic too, 1235 01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:19,240 Speaker 1: because those things are you know, those those things are 1236 01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:23,439 Speaker 1: leverage for an honest criminal investigator. That's how people talk. 1237 01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:26,840 Speaker 1: People talk when they're in trouble. So there's not one 1238 01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:29,720 Speaker 1: single answer. It's it's a case by case assessment of 1239 01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:31,520 Speaker 1: where am I going to, where am I going to 1240 01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:34,120 Speaker 1: use my my, my agency's resources for, and what am 1241 01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:38,200 Speaker 1: I gonna achieve? And the fact is, well, she may, 1242 01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:40,760 Speaker 1: you know, she may be heralded for being progressive in 1243 01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:44,240 Speaker 1: some ways, her her office is is a goddamn mess. 1244 01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:46,520 Speaker 1: They can't they can't do anything right. They're they're not 1245 01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:48,680 Speaker 1: aggressive about the things they need to be aggressive about. 1246 01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:52,640 Speaker 1: You know. Years ago, UM, we started to get into 1247 01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:55,080 Speaker 1: see in New York City that a growing number of 1248 01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:59,840 Speaker 1: juries were refusing to convict people for low level drug offenses, 1249 01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:02,720 Speaker 1: and my organization got involved, even in a ballot initiative. 1250 01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:04,480 Speaker 1: I think it was in one of the dakotas that 1251 01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:08,440 Speaker 1: would require judges to inform jurors of their right of 1252 01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:11,280 Speaker 1: during nullification. It did not succeed, but I think this 1253 01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:13,560 Speaker 1: became an issue that you jumped on for a while. 1254 01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:17,840 Speaker 1: The Wires main policy argument was in the drug war. 1255 01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:20,560 Speaker 1: The drug wars destructive and it's not doing what you 1256 01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:24,240 Speaker 1: think it's doing. It's destroying police work as well as 1257 01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:28,000 Speaker 1: communities and families and human beings. And so we had 1258 01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:30,960 Speaker 1: in Time Magazine, the writers of the of the show, UM, 1259 01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:33,240 Speaker 1: as we finished, as we were wrapping up the run 1260 01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:36,919 Speaker 1: of the show, we all committed to um the fact 1261 01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:38,640 Speaker 1: that if we were chosen for a jury and we 1262 01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:43,040 Speaker 1: were presented with a drug case possession or the distribution 1263 01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:46,560 Speaker 1: that had no attendant violence that was charged as a 1264 01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:49,200 Speaker 1: result of the case, we would vote to equit. We 1265 01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:51,400 Speaker 1: would vote to nullify that jury. We all said it 1266 01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:54,919 Speaker 1: aloud and we wrote it into Time Magazine. Yeah, David, 1267 01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:56,400 Speaker 1: the problem is once you say it out loud, you 1268 01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:59,160 Speaker 1: can no longer do it. Well, I know, but you know, 1269 01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:01,240 Speaker 1: we were basically five guys and what we're hoping is 1270 01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:03,760 Speaker 1: like we can we convinced ten more to do it. 1271 01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:06,200 Speaker 1: So we wrote it out, We said it out loud, 1272 01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:09,280 Speaker 1: and I've held to it. UM. I believe in that. UM. 1273 01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:13,120 Speaker 1: I believe that basically what is teaching the system to 1274 01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:15,840 Speaker 1: respect good police work and too and to disregard that 1275 01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:18,000 Speaker 1: which is you know, over policing of human beings and 1276 01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:22,560 Speaker 1: of communities is important. And to be honest with you, 1277 01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:26,040 Speaker 1: I was on a jury for a drug trial in Baltimore. 1278 01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:29,520 Speaker 1: I was picked. I was in the box. I was 1279 01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:32,040 Speaker 1: one of one of I guess one of fourteen. They 1280 01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:37,960 Speaker 1: had alternates, and the prosecutor had missed me. He for 1281 01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:39,560 Speaker 1: whatever reason, he didn't know who I was. He didn't 1282 01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:41,400 Speaker 1: asked me a question. I guess he figured like he's 1283 01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:43,640 Speaker 1: Baltmore city. I got a white guy, got a white male. 1284 01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:46,560 Speaker 1: That's good for my jury. So the prosecutor missed me. 1285 01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:48,200 Speaker 1: I think the defense journey who knew I was, and 1286 01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:50,680 Speaker 1: he wasn't gonna say anything. And so I sat there 1287 01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:54,200 Speaker 1: until the judge and his jury instructions, in beginning to 1288 01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:57,720 Speaker 1: instruct the jury, said is there anyone here who has 1289 01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:00,960 Speaker 1: any objection to the nation's drug law? And I had 1290 01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:02,600 Speaker 1: to raise my hand. I'm not going to perjure myself. 1291 01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:05,000 Speaker 1: It's not, you know, not a perjurer. I had to 1292 01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:06,960 Speaker 1: stand up and they basically said, is there no way 1293 01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:09,640 Speaker 1: you can and and and so I was dismissed. So 1294 01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:11,120 Speaker 1: I got I got it, at least I got in 1295 01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:13,600 Speaker 1: the box. Yeah, yeah, I know, I remember being on 1296 01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:16,560 Speaker 1: a grand jury. And after two days I basically called 1297 01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:18,959 Speaker 1: the side of the proceduor of the room, and I said, 1298 01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:21,440 Speaker 1: I can't be here. You know, It's like, you know why, 1299 01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:23,520 Speaker 1: because part of my job is to get your boss fired. 1300 01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:25,920 Speaker 1: I think the whole system is bullshit, you know. And 1301 01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:27,720 Speaker 1: actually I managed to get off a grand jury in 1302 01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:29,160 Speaker 1: New York, which is not an easy thing to do. 1303 01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:31,240 Speaker 1: I wanted to be on the jury. I actually I 1304 01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:33,520 Speaker 1: wanted the case to go ahead. You know, in watching 1305 01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:35,800 Speaker 1: or a lot of your stuff, I mean a lot 1306 01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:37,960 Speaker 1: of it. You know it's about Baltimore. But you did 1307 01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:41,080 Speaker 1: New Orleans, you know about music, You did New York 1308 01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:43,920 Speaker 1: City Times Square with the Deuce, about the porn industry. 1309 01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:47,120 Speaker 1: You did Yonkers in the fight over housing disagregation with 1310 01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:49,040 Speaker 1: fascinating to me because I grew up in Yonkers a 1311 01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:52,880 Speaker 1: decade before that time that you didn't. But recently, just 1312 01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:55,280 Speaker 1: a few days ago, I just binge watched the sixth 1313 01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:59,240 Speaker 1: episode um Plot against America, Philip Ross novel that you 1314 01:05:59,360 --> 01:06:02,600 Speaker 1: turned into this wonderful mini series. And I'll tell you something, 1315 01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, just a few days ago, I was just 1316 01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:06,800 Speaker 1: at some New York marijuana march and I'm supposed to 1317 01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:08,600 Speaker 1: be a little speech, and I said, I don't want 1318 01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:10,000 Speaker 1: to talk to you about this, because I said, the 1319 01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:12,640 Speaker 1: reason that I got involved in trying to end the 1320 01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:14,960 Speaker 1: drug war thirty forty years ago was because I saw 1321 01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:18,480 Speaker 1: it as perhaps the most fundamental threat to freedom in America, 1322 01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:21,480 Speaker 1: my core values. But now I look around the world 1323 01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:25,920 Speaker 1: and I look at the rise of a totalitarian you know, China, 1324 01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:28,960 Speaker 1: the emergence of of Putin as it kind of wants 1325 01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:31,960 Speaker 1: to be a global want to be fascist, white nationalist leader, 1326 01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:33,960 Speaker 1: and then of course in my own country at the 1327 01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:36,800 Speaker 1: Republican Party becoming. I never would use the word fascist 1328 01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:40,040 Speaker 1: loosely as a former pol. But no, I'm not going 1329 01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:42,840 Speaker 1: to use it loosely. I'm saying it's specifically now applies 1330 01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:46,360 Speaker 1: to the direction. And I know. And so the question 1331 01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:48,840 Speaker 1: is I admired your doing that. I admired what you 1332 01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:51,680 Speaker 1: did it, But do you find that this much greater, 1333 01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:55,520 Speaker 1: more existential threat to our values that go way beyond 1334 01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:57,560 Speaker 1: the drug war? You know, in the way the drug 1335 01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:00,160 Speaker 1: wars stood out as a kind of shiny exam up 1336 01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:03,560 Speaker 1: all of posing the values we stand for as Americans, 1337 01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:06,479 Speaker 1: now it seems so much broader and so that goes 1338 01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:10,080 Speaker 1: to you personally, David, in terms of your thinking, your mind, 1339 01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:12,880 Speaker 1: and given you know the high likelihood that three years 1340 01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:15,880 Speaker 1: from now we'll have a Neil fascist Republican party controlling 1341 01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:18,240 Speaker 1: the White House, both Houses of Congress, and Supreme Court, 1342 01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:21,080 Speaker 1: and the majority state governments, how is this going to 1343 01:07:21,200 --> 01:07:24,280 Speaker 1: shape your work or is it not. I'm gonna keep 1344 01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:26,200 Speaker 1: making the stories that matter to me politically. I'm a 1345 01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:28,880 Speaker 1: home political writer. You know, I'm a dramatist, but I'm 1346 01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:32,560 Speaker 1: also I'm writing about what interests me politically, and my 1347 01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:35,520 Speaker 1: stance is not going to change. Um. I'm certainly being 1348 01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:39,280 Speaker 1: given more material every moment, But how's it gonna change? 1349 01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:42,360 Speaker 1: I'm not sure it's gonna it's I don't think it's transformational. 1350 01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:46,560 Speaker 1: I think in some respects, you're asking me what happens 1351 01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:50,320 Speaker 1: when we lose? You know, what happens when we turn 1352 01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:54,680 Speaker 1: in the direction that is um anti human and anti democratic? 1353 01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:57,640 Speaker 1: And the answer is, I mean, at some point, if 1354 01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:01,360 Speaker 1: the money or the laws impair even narrative, if if 1355 01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:04,919 Speaker 1: if open speech becomes vulnerable, then somebody will say you've 1356 01:08:04,920 --> 01:08:07,880 Speaker 1: got to stop making these shows in the same way 1357 01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:10,120 Speaker 1: that they're already trying to ban books, and you know 1358 01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:12,960 Speaker 1: the the insanity of that, and you know, um, the 1359 01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:16,840 Speaker 1: idea that somebody's political theory can be ameliorated by a 1360 01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:21,200 Speaker 1: law against it is just a level of um dystopian 1361 01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:24,080 Speaker 1: authoritarianism that you didn't think you were going to see 1362 01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:26,920 Speaker 1: in modern America ever again, and yet here we are. 1363 01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:28,920 Speaker 1: So I don't know how it's gonna affect it. I 1364 01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:31,840 Speaker 1: just I know that it's never bothered me enough to 1365 01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:35,800 Speaker 1: to stop doing what I'm doing. That I keep making 1366 01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:38,800 Speaker 1: an argument about stuff and and nobody takes the argument, 1367 01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:41,160 Speaker 1: or nobody passes a better law and fixes anything, you know. 1368 01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:44,280 Speaker 1: I mean, plot against America was about Trump. It was 1369 01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:48,080 Speaker 1: about a white populist um who says all the things 1370 01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:51,160 Speaker 1: that voters think they want to hear and meanwhile is 1371 01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:54,240 Speaker 1: eroding the very fundamentals of what the American Republican the 1372 01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:57,400 Speaker 1: American experiment are about. And we made it in the 1373 01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:02,120 Speaker 1: election year and when we were, um, you know, very 1374 01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:06,120 Speaker 1: conscious of of the stakes. And you know, I don't 1375 01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:08,639 Speaker 1: know whether anybody watched her, if it affected anyone's vote, 1376 01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:11,080 Speaker 1: but we wouldn't say it any different if if we 1377 01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:12,880 Speaker 1: knew Trump was about to be elected. You know what 1378 01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:15,320 Speaker 1: I mean. If he had won, we would have still 1379 01:09:15,360 --> 01:09:17,599 Speaker 1: made the same mini series. One of the guys who 1380 01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:19,720 Speaker 1: I really loved when I was a newspaper reporter was 1381 01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:23,040 Speaker 1: I have Stone. Is he Stone? Great independent voice in 1382 01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:28,160 Speaker 1: journalism for many many decades? Uh And in a good 1383 01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:31,600 Speaker 1: lefty at heart and um, Stone said something that I 1384 01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:34,679 Speaker 1: thought was very apt. He said, Um, sometimes the fights 1385 01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:37,240 Speaker 1: that you have that are where you know you can't 1386 01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:39,519 Speaker 1: win and you don't win, are the ones worth having. 1387 01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:43,120 Speaker 1: First of all, you know right is right, and don't 1388 01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:45,640 Speaker 1: say the wrong thing because you get to win. But 1389 01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:48,360 Speaker 1: second of all, maybe by you saying it and losing 1390 01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:52,520 Speaker 1: somewhere down the road, um, but you've created enough gravitas 1391 01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:54,360 Speaker 1: or enough momentum that somebody will take it to the 1392 01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:56,640 Speaker 1: next step and then eventually maybe somebody gets to win 1393 01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:59,519 Speaker 1: with it. And that's sort of That was a very 1394 01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:03,800 Speaker 1: prac cool distillation of something I read years ago from 1395 01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:07,840 Speaker 1: from Camu, I think in the Mythosisiphus, which was he said, 1396 01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:10,639 Speaker 1: you know, to have a to have a take on something, 1397 01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:13,880 Speaker 1: um or to fight for something. I'm trying. I'm really 1398 01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:17,640 Speaker 1: screwing up Camu here, but but I know exactly what 1399 01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:20,280 Speaker 1: the paragraph is basically said. You know, to commit to 1400 01:10:20,320 --> 01:10:25,000 Speaker 1: a just cause with the certainty of defeat is absurd, 1401 01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:28,760 Speaker 1: but to not commit to adjust cause because of the 1402 01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:32,240 Speaker 1: certainty of defeat is equally absurd. And only one of 1403 01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:36,040 Speaker 1: those choices um affords you the chance of human dignity. 1404 01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:39,280 Speaker 1: That's it, man, It's like you know, just because nobody 1405 01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:42,040 Speaker 1: listens to you doesn't mean the story changes. So you know, 1406 01:10:42,479 --> 01:10:45,760 Speaker 1: that's that's the way you gotta be if you're dealing 1407 01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:47,800 Speaker 1: with story time. Well, damn it, I don't know if 1408 01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:50,040 Speaker 1: that's an uplifting note on which to end or not 1409 01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:53,120 Speaker 1: to listen. Thank you ever so much for well, I'll 1410 01:10:53,160 --> 01:10:54,720 Speaker 1: tell you this. It's a note that it's a it's 1411 01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:57,160 Speaker 1: a note that I couldn't get out because my brains 1412 01:10:57,200 --> 01:10:59,040 Speaker 1: fried after talking for an hour after. We're gonna have 1413 01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:02,560 Speaker 1: to add Okay, listen, Thanks, thanks ever so much for 1414 01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:05,640 Speaker 1: joining man psychoactive, and I you know, more power to you, 1415 01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:09,720 Speaker 1: and I look forward to your next creations. Okay, take care. 1416 01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:16,360 Speaker 1: Thank you. If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends 1417 01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:18,400 Speaker 1: about it, or you can write us a review at 1418 01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:21,840 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We love 1419 01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:24,400 Speaker 1: to hear from our listeners. If you'd like to share 1420 01:11:24,439 --> 01:11:27,120 Speaker 1: your own stories, comments and ideas, then leave us a 1421 01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:32,759 Speaker 1: message at one eight three three seven seven nine sixty 1422 01:11:33,280 --> 01:11:37,479 Speaker 1: that's eight three three psycho zero, or you can email 1423 01:11:37,600 --> 01:11:40,960 Speaker 1: us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com, or find me 1424 01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:44,519 Speaker 1: on Twitter at Ethan Natalman. You can also find contact 1425 01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:48,400 Speaker 1: information in our show notes. Psychoactive is a production of 1426 01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:51,920 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me 1427 01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:56,200 Speaker 1: Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by noah'm osband and Josh Stain. 1428 01:11:56,520 --> 01:12:00,920 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus 1429 01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:04,519 Speaker 1: and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt 1430 01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:08,040 Speaker 1: Frederick from My Heart Radio and me Ethan Edelman. Our 1431 01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:11,800 Speaker 1: music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks to 1432 01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:26,880 Speaker 1: a Brio s F Bianca Grimshaw and Robert bb. Next 1433 01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:30,400 Speaker 1: week I'll be talking with Lady Amanda Fielding. She's the 1434 01:12:30,479 --> 01:12:33,640 Speaker 1: founder and head of the Beckley Foundation, which is the 1435 01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:38,040 Speaker 1: outstanding psychelic research institute in the United Kingdom. She's been 1436 01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:42,640 Speaker 1: described as the Queen of Consciousness. I actually have a 1437 01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:47,879 Speaker 1: particular love of L s D because of its purity. 1438 01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:53,120 Speaker 1: I think in a way, it's the most cognitively stimulating 1439 01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:59,040 Speaker 1: and it's the least toxic. So even when you take 1440 01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:02,040 Speaker 1: it reg lee for a while, when you come off it, 1441 01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:05,360 Speaker 1: you don't have a hangover, you don't have any craving. 1442 01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:12,200 Speaker 1: There's no aspect of addiction about it. And actually one 1443 01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:16,760 Speaker 1: needs more discipline to take it than not to take it. 1444 01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:19,960 Speaker 1: In a funny sort of way, it needs discipline to 1445 01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:23,559 Speaker 1: take it and work with it. Subscribe to Cycleactive now 1446 01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:24,479 Speaker 1: see it all, miss it