1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:03,960 Speaker 1: When you're ready to ride Metro, we want you to 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: know we're ready for you. Here are just a few 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:08,399 Speaker 1: of the people at Metro to tell you how we're 4 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: doing our part to keep riders safe. You've found hans 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: out of size, no mask, no Metro need one. We 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: have a few extras at Metro. We're doing our part 7 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: to keep the DC area moving. Find out more at 8 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: well mada dot com slash doing our part. The number 9 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: of reports from countries who are doing very detailed contact tracing, 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,599 Speaker 1: they're following asymptomatic cases, they're following contexts, and they're not 11 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: finding secondary transmission onward is very rare. We are constantly 12 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: looking at this data and we're trying to get more 13 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: information from countries to truly answer this question. It's still 14 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: appears to be rare that an asymptomatic individual actually transmits onward. 15 00:00:55,280 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: As the kids say, wait, what that was a double 16 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: U H O doctor saying if you've got no symptoms, 17 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: it's very very rare to to give anybody else the disease, 18 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: which is one of the you know, basic ideas behind 19 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: the giant shutdown. After we stopped plantening the curve and 20 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: just became obsessed with avoiding cases anyway to discuss that 21 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: and many other related topics, please welcome the Armstrong and 22 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: Getty Show, the most terrific lan J h N David 23 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: and Diane Stephy, fellow in American Public Policy Studies at 24 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: the Hoover Institution. Lan He, how are you, sir? J Hm? Well, 25 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: good to talk to you. Likewise, Yeah, thanks for coming 26 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: on today. Uh listen, I think we're all a little too, 27 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 1: very very frustrated, depending on the impacts in our lives 28 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: with these county and state health officials who have been 29 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: granted dictatorial powers during an alleged emergency. Your take, where 30 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: do we start? I mean, my favorite is the is 31 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: the amount of what seems to be completely arbitrary rulemaking? Right? 32 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know Contra Costa County, which is not 33 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: that far from where you are, not a far from 34 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: where I am. They have a rule that basically says, 35 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: you can get twelve people together in your backyard for 36 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: a social gathering as long as it's the same twelve 37 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: people what they call a stable group, or you can 38 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: have a protest of up to a hundred. Tell me 39 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 1: how that makes any sense? Tell me how that makes 40 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: any sense at all? I mean, this is what frustrates people. 41 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: It's not that people don't want to listen. It's not 42 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: that people have a natural inclination to want to disrespect authority. 43 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: It's that people don't like the fact that there is 44 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 1: no consistency and there's just lamping hypocrisy amongst these public 45 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 1: health officials. And that's why people are upset. Well, Jack, 46 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 1: if you were here, would bring up the fact that, 47 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: and we've seen this in county after county. You know, 48 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 1: barber shops can open on Wednesday, then restaurants on Friday, 49 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: but you you rotten bastards fixed and lawnmowers or whatever, 50 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 1: you gotta wait till next Tuesday. And it's just it's 51 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: arbitrary and ridiculous, and and it seems to be entirely 52 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: independent of how many hospitalizations and deaths are in a 53 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: particular area. Yeah, and it's you know, I think it's 54 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: just this sort of notion that the government is going 55 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: to decide what is acceptable and unacceptable activity without any 56 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: reference point that seems anywhere close to something that that 57 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: that looks like science. I think that's what frustrates people 58 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 1: is the sense that, okay, you know, it's one thing 59 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: if government said, look, we have a reasonable explanation for 60 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 1: why you can only get a haircut on Tuesdays when 61 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: you can only fix your car on Thursdays. But that's 62 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: not even the case. They're not even pretending to have 63 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: an explanation as to why things are acceptable one day 64 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: or another. They're just saying, look, it's because we say so. 65 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: I mean they are like, you know how parents respond 66 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: to small sovern We're being treated like toddlers. And I 67 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: think that's why that that's why there this frustration. I 68 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: would agree, you're just supposed to shut up and take it. 69 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: And speaking of parenting, or coaching, or um teaching or 70 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: or training a dog, you quickly understand, okay, if I 71 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: let them get away with this, or if I nip 72 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: it in the butter or whatever, that has impact going 73 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: down the line. And with the protest thing, I think 74 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: it's an excellent example. Getting together and shouting and chanting 75 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: in fairly tight bunches is obviously the sort of thing 76 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: that's going to spread the COVID, but they don't dare 77 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: shut it down. So so you earn the right to 78 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: associate with other human beings by being militant or angry 79 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: or something like that. As opposed to an appeal to logic, 80 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 1: you're gonna get more of that. I mean, these poor 81 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: nail salon gals and the hairdressers and and the rest 82 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: of it. They've got to get militant and angry and 83 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: then presumably they'll be allowed to open well. And I'll 84 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: tell you that people that these public health officials ultimately 85 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: hurt in the long run as themselves. They hurt their 86 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: own credibility, because what happens is the next time we 87 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: you know, we we let's say we do have a 88 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: spike in COVID cases as we go down the line 89 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, and you know, they're going to be 90 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: yelling and screaming about staying at home and sheltering place. 91 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: And people understandably are going to be skeptical. They're gonna say, look, 92 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: you know what, when the time came to reopen, and 93 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: to reopen reasonably, you made these arbitrary distinctions. You don't 94 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: seem to have science to explain. For example, this distinction 95 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: that the WAH chose now talking about between a symptomatic 96 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: carriers and non symptomatic carriers, that that affentily by the 97 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: ways that the stincts that the difference between people who 98 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: are asymptomatic and pre symptomatic. All right, whatever it all means. 99 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: The point is people are going to look at this 100 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: and say, you know what, it's a bunch of hogwash 101 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: because what we what we were shown was when the 102 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: ships were down and you had to make a decision 103 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: that apparently said we're going to preference public health over politics. 104 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: You chose politics. You basically said, I'm not going to 105 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 1: criticize protesters because politically it better aligns with what I believe. 106 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: And people start going to listen to you anymore. Yeah, well, 107 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: I think that is the message, and it's been sent 108 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: loud and clear. Now you're a public policy guy. I'm 109 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: looking at my own county here. I got a county 110 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: by county, state by state map which is very interesting, 111 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: and uh, there have been no deaths in in many weeks. 112 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: Now it says last fourteen days, but I think it's 113 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: nine or ten weeks. There are a total of six 114 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: people hospitalized in my entire county, which is vast geographically 115 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: and has lots and lots of people in it. Um, 116 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: but we're still observing all sorts of strange and inexplicable limitations. 117 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: You can't break a sand trap on a golf course, 118 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: even though the CDC set a week week and a 119 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: half ago that surface UM transmission is very rare and unlikely. So, 120 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: as a public policy guy, Loan Eachen of the Hoover Institution, 121 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: Stanford University, UM is the problem that we said, okay, governors, 122 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: go ahead and declare an emergency, but there's no sunset 123 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: to it, there's no limit to it, there's no defining 124 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: of the emergency because it's it's not been about flattening 125 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 1: the curve for many, many, many weeks. So it's how 126 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: can we not do this so badly next time? Well, 127 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: you know, I think I think there's a couple of things, Joe. 128 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: I think we have to demand that our policy makers 129 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: give us answers in terms of why they're doing what 130 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:08,799 Speaker 1: they're doing. You know, I think to a certain degree, 131 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: we were also concerned about this virus the start that 132 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: we just sort of said, okay, we trust you. Well, 133 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: it's pretty clear now that that they have not earned 134 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: our trust in a way that that that suggests we 135 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: should just give them a blank chet. So I think 136 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: we have to ask questions. That's the first thing. The 137 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: second thing is you know that you're technically seleunder a 138 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: shelter in place order as am I technically. But one 139 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: of the things that really bothers me is that there's 140 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: no basis for these things now, there's no basis for 141 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: why things are doing, why people are doing what they're doing. 142 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: And so, in my mind, the way we avoid this 143 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: going forward, uh is not only by demanding answers, but 144 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: basically saying, Okay, look, if you public officials have not 145 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: been responsible and accountable, we're going to make an effort 146 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:53,679 Speaker 1: to vote you out of office when the time comes. 147 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: Because ultimately, these public help people, they're answerable to accounting supervisors. 148 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,559 Speaker 1: They're answerable to mayors. And if these may and county 149 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: supervisors aren't doing their job, they don't deserve to be 150 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: an office. Well, and you just can't give executive power 151 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: and sweeping executive power to somebody who has only one concern, 152 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: and that's the health of the people in their county. 153 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: The county health people are the state health people. The 154 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: life is a lot more complicated than that, and are 155 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: elected officials are supposed to take in those complexities. Right, 156 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: they handed off to one committee chairman in effect, right, 157 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: they're supposed to weigh what the public health people say 158 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: against the economic realities on the ground, the fact that 159 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: people are skipping visits to the hospital or to the 160 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: health care provider because they're concerned or because limits are 161 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: in place. They're skipping economic activity because they're told they 162 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 1: can't do it because it's not safe, and people's livelihoods 163 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: are at stake. You know, kids aren't going to school. 164 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: I saw some data the other day that says kids 165 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: are falling behind the third and fourth grade level just 166 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: because of the last couple of months that's spent out 167 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: of school. And these are the kind of costs that 168 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: have to be weighed, and if you don't weigh them, 169 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 1: you end up with arbitrary policy that, frankly, not a 170 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: whole lot of people like right not to mention the anxiety, 171 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: anxiety and depression that the kids are feeling. Lonie, I'm 172 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,199 Speaker 1: afraid we're out of time, but really enjoy the conversation. 173 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: Thought provoking. Lani Chen of the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, 174 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 1: Great to talk to you, Thanks for the time, Thank you, 175 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: and is Lani. He pointed out quite aptly, not only 176 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: are the public health people obsessed with health they became 177 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: obsessed with a particular part of health, which is the 178 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: Chinese bad fever, and we're forgetting preventative care and and 179 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: necessary procedures and and the rest of it. It's just 180 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: it's an example of really really bad governance and jetty. 181 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: When you're ready to ride Metro, we want you to 182 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: know we're ready for you. Here are just a few 183 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: of the people at Metro to tell you how we're 184 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: doing our part to keep writers safe. We clean you 185 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: like before hospital. You've found halfs out of tune of stations, 186 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: no mask, no Metro need one. We have a few 187 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: extras at Metro. We're doing our part to keep the 188 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: DC area moving. Find out more at will Matta dot 189 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: com slash doing our part