WEBVTT - Can Pets Be Curious? How About Wild Chimps?

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope

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<v Speaker 1>and iHeartRadio. Guess what Will?

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<v Speaker 2>What's that Mango?

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<v Speaker 1>So yesterday we talked about the real and imagined dangers

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<v Speaker 1>of curiosity, which are often summed up in the famous

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<v Speaker 1>phrase curiosity killed a cat. But there's at least one

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<v Speaker 1>case where I found where curiosity not only saved the cat,

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<v Speaker 1>but the lives of its owners too. And this was

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<v Speaker 1>back in twenty twenty one, when an Oregon couple, Mike

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<v Speaker 1>and Sandy Martin, adopted a three year old Tortoiseshell cat

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<v Speaker 1>named Lily, and one day they were playing with her

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<v Speaker 1>on the floor of their living room, but she kept

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<v Speaker 1>getting distracted by this brass valve next to the fireplace.

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<v Speaker 1>Lily had sniffed the valve before, and her owner is

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<v Speaker 1>always just assumed it was attracted to the shiny metal

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<v Speaker 1>or whatever, right, But on that afternoon, she just kept

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<v Speaker 1>going back to it over and over again, and the

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<v Speaker 1>behavior made the couple nervous, so they decided to follow

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<v Speaker 1>Lily's instincts and lead, and they sniffed the valve themselves.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's just a wholesome game of sniff the valve.

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<v Speaker 2>We do this in the house all the time, but this.

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<v Speaker 1>Time it was not so enjoyable because the Martins both

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<v Speaker 1>detected the faint scent of natural gas and the deadly

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<v Speaker 1>leak was almost imperceptible and they actually never would have

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<v Speaker 1>noticed it on their own, but Lily's curiosity tipped them

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<v Speaker 1>off and it saved all their lives in the process.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know, I make a habit of never

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<v Speaker 2>over complimenting a cat, like they get enough praise as

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<v Speaker 2>it is. But I love that she turned that annoying

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<v Speaker 2>idiom on its head like that. That's nice work.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>My question though, was how did she know the gas

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<v Speaker 2>was dangerous?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think Lily did. In her mind, it was

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<v Speaker 1>just this new, weird smell, and she kept going back

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<v Speaker 1>to it because she wanted to learn more about it.

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<v Speaker 1>And that kind of sensory exploration, whether it's sniffing, licking, rubbing,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a telltale sign of curiosity in animals, and so

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<v Speaker 1>is the frequency of their investigation. The more times an

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<v Speaker 1>animal returns to a novel stimulus, the more curious they

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<v Speaker 1>are about it. But that just scratches the surface here.

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<v Speaker 1>There's still a lot we don't know about animal curiosity, Like,

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<v Speaker 1>how does curiosity differ across species? Does captivity play a

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<v Speaker 1>role in how curious an animal is? And our animals

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<v Speaker 1>actually curious? Are we just mistaking pure instinct for something deeper?

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<v Speaker 1>Today we're taking a cross species approach to curiosity across

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<v Speaker 1>the animal kingdom. So let's dive in.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, their podcast listener is welcome to part Time Genius.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Will Pearson and is always I'm joined by my

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<v Speaker 2>good friend mangesh hot Ticketter on the other side of

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<v Speaker 2>that soundproof glass. Now, he got here early today. He's

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<v Speaker 2>been doing this for a couple of hours. He's testing

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<v Speaker 2>the curiosity of a green annull lizard. That is our

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<v Speaker 2>friend and producer, Dylan Fagan. But just look at him

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<v Speaker 2>over there. He's got all kinds of different objects spread

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<v Speaker 2>out on his desk and he's keeping track of which

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<v Speaker 2>ones the little guy likes best.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, so far, it looks like it's very interested

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<v Speaker 1>in the heat rock and the bag of crickets, but

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<v Speaker 1>not so much in the harmonica, the bar watch or

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<v Speaker 1>the biscuit.

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<v Speaker 2>No, the biscuit surprising. I thought it'd be interested in

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<v Speaker 2>the biscuit.

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<v Speaker 1>The others.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I get it for a lizard, but in

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<v Speaker 2>that miniature copy of the Great Gasbee, it's not Ziema's

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<v Speaker 2>action today.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the lizard is probably more of a heavingway fat well.

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<v Speaker 2>Regardless, it was a valiant effort on Dylan's part, and

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<v Speaker 2>his methods are actually pretty close to those used by

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<v Speaker 2>professional animal researchers like you mentioned a minute ago. Exploratory

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<v Speaker 2>behavior is thought to be an indicator of animal curios

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<v Speaker 2>and the same is true for object manipulation. So one

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<v Speaker 2>way to gauge an animal's curiosity is to present it

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<v Speaker 2>with lots of different objects and see which ones, if any,

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<v Speaker 2>can hold its attention the longest.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, now I'm curious. So is this something you've

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<v Speaker 1>ever tested on your own pets like Paul. Has Paul

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<v Speaker 1>ever shown any curiosity?

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<v Speaker 2>It's one of those things that we sort of do

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<v Speaker 2>it by default because you get, you know, this collection

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<v Speaker 2>of so many different animal toys. Not surprisingly, Paul definitely

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<v Speaker 2>likes to go back to the super loud, squeaky honky

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<v Speaker 2>chicken thing that dislikes to go to town on it.

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<v Speaker 1>But not the actual chickens.

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<v Speaker 2>No, not the actual well no, if the chickens are

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<v Speaker 2>out Paul is definitely curious there and wants to chase them.

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<v Speaker 2>Fortunately has never gotten a hold of any of them.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, how about you, I've.

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<v Speaker 1>Tried to think. I mean, I know, I had this

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<v Speaker 1>pop named Colia for a bit, and he would always

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<v Speaker 1>like sneak under my parents' bed and then just get

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<v Speaker 1>lost for a long time, and we didn't We heard,

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<v Speaker 1>we could hear him gnawing, we could hear him doing stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>and we just assumed he was working on a masterpiece

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<v Speaker 1>that we never got to.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure, I'm sure that was the case, Maga.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, before we got ahead of ourselves, we should talk

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit about what it means for an animal

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<v Speaker 1>to be curious, because it's not a perfect one to

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<v Speaker 1>one with human curiosity. And in fact, some people aren't

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<v Speaker 1>even convinced that animals can be curious, which is.

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<v Speaker 2>Just wild to me. Like, I'm assuming those are all

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<v Speaker 2>people who've never walked a dog or played with a

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<v Speaker 2>kitten before, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, definitely some unlucky people. So I think it's more

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<v Speaker 1>a matter of perspective, Right, most people have observed the

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<v Speaker 1>kind of behavior you're talking about, a dog wanting to

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<v Speaker 1>sniff every single square inch of a park or a

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<v Speaker 1>kid exploring all the nooks and crannies of a new home.

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<v Speaker 1>But not everyone considers those actions to be true expressions

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<v Speaker 1>of curiosity. Some would argue that animals are just acting

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<v Speaker 1>on instinct rather than a true subjective desire to learn something. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and you might think that split.

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<v Speaker 2>Only exists than the academic world. But we asked our

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<v Speaker 2>good Palmetra to pull the good people of Brooklyn on

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<v Speaker 2>whether they thought animals could be curious, and while most

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<v Speaker 2>people did, it wasn't quite unanimous. So take a listen.

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<v Speaker 2>Can dogs be curious?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, in a general way, I think they can. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>they're probably too curious, right, They want to sniff everything

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<v Speaker 1>and it gets them into trouble.

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<v Speaker 3>I think my dog is extremely curious, and I think

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<v Speaker 3>it's exciting that her curiosity comes primarily from scent, which

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<v Speaker 3>is different from me. It makes me more curious about

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<v Speaker 3>the world to understand it in a new way.

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<v Speaker 1>Mister bo Is, our four year old Border Collie Labrador retrievers.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, that guys smells smells something.

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<v Speaker 1>He's gonna figure it out. What is it? Let me

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<v Speaker 1>rolling it? And yes, very curious.

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<v Speaker 4>I have two cats. Everything's curiosity of you, Well, I

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<v Speaker 4>mean sent sleep, and then two percent eat, and then

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<v Speaker 4>three percent curiosity, which is a lot in a cat

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<v Speaker 4>if they see any movement in the house, they're just like,

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<v Speaker 4>what was that? And then they have to go check

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<v Speaker 4>it out.

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<v Speaker 2>So I don't think animals are curious at all.

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<v Speaker 1>Everything is from instinct, but it misinterpreted it is curiosity.

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<v Speaker 2>So we heard that one lone voice of descent there

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<v Speaker 2>at the end, but even the first speaker hedged a

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<v Speaker 2>little by saying dogs could be curious in a general way, right,

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<v Speaker 2>which I think brings us back to that big question,

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<v Speaker 2>what does it mean for an animal to be curious? Well,

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<v Speaker 2>to help answer that, I want to turn to the

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<v Speaker 2>work of a British neuroscientist named Richard Byrne. Now, he's

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<v Speaker 2>a renowned scholar on the evolution of cognitive and social behavior,

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<v Speaker 2>including the origins of distinctly human traits, and according to him,

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<v Speaker 2>if we go by the most basic definition of curiosity,

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<v Speaker 2>the motivation to seek out information even in the absence

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<v Speaker 2>of clear goals like food or shelter, that we have

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<v Speaker 2>to admit that some animals do display signs of curiosity.

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<v Speaker 2>We know they aren't solely concerned with basic needs like

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<v Speaker 2>finding food or reproducing, because sometimes they'll also investigate strange objects,

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<v Speaker 2>like seemingly just for the heck of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but it's the last part that can really get

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<v Speaker 1>us into trouble, right, because how can we say for sure?

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<v Speaker 1>Then animal isn't exploring for a particular reason.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's the thing. They absolutely are exploring for a

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<v Speaker 2>specific reason, and it's the same reason that humans do,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's to gain new information. As Professor Burne explained

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<v Speaker 2>in a twenty thirteen paper, once you think of animal

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<v Speaker 2>behavior and information processing terms, the need for something like

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<v Speaker 2>curiosity becomes obvious. Information is power. Information gathering is worth

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<v Speaker 2>doing even if there are no obvious payoffs at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>as long as getting it is not unduly costly or risky.

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<v Speaker 2>Storing information and memory is cheap, and you never know

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<v Speaker 2>when a little knowledge may come in handy, such as

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<v Speaker 2>when a psychologist suddenly deprives you of food and puts

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<v Speaker 2>you back in that where you'd happen to notice some

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<v Speaker 2>cheese earlier.

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<v Speaker 1>I see. So, just like for humans, there's an evolutionary

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<v Speaker 1>advantage for curious animals because they can glean information from

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<v Speaker 1>it that helps them better exploit their surroundings or even

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<v Speaker 1>deal with potential threats I imagine, But I'm guessing that

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<v Speaker 1>risk reward trade off keeps some animals from developing a

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<v Speaker 1>sense of curiosity in the first place, because there are

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<v Speaker 1>probably just some environments where gathering information would be too

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<v Speaker 1>dangerous to justify.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's right. So more adaptable animals like rats, for instance,

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<v Speaker 2>are prone to curiosity because they often live alongside humans

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<v Speaker 2>and have evolved to handle that rapidly changing conditions that

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<v Speaker 2>come with that, and they need to keep exploring and

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<v Speaker 2>investigating them because it benefits them to stay on top

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<v Speaker 2>of these things.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we're always building new things and changing up the landscape,

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<v Speaker 1>redirecting traffic, dropping food and weird places.

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<v Speaker 2>That's exactly right. But you know, for an isolated species

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<v Speaker 2>that have their own little niches, it's just the opposite.

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<v Speaker 2>Their environment is more or less static and there isn't

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<v Speaker 2>as much new information that's worth acquiring, so it makes

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<v Speaker 2>sense for them to explore less and just kind of

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<v Speaker 2>stay in their lane. But an animal's ecology isn't the

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<v Speaker 2>only factor in determining its level of curiosity. Cognitive ability

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<v Speaker 2>plays a role as well, by determining how a situation

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<v Speaker 2>is perceived and what kind of information can be derived

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<v Speaker 2>from it. As Professor Burne puts it, with more advanced

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<v Speaker 2>perceptual and brain processes, there's more to discover. With more

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<v Speaker 2>advanced motor abilities, more can be done. Inevitably, these species

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<v Speaker 2>with limited perceptions, small brains, and restricted ability to affect

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<v Speaker 2>their environment are not going to show as many signs

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<v Speaker 2>of curiosity. So what animals are curious about? How long

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<v Speaker 2>their curiosity lasts maybe revealing of their information processing abilities.

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<v Speaker 1>So high functioning animals like chimps, dolphins, octopuses, those are

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<v Speaker 1>animals that are going to be way more curious than

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<v Speaker 1>something like a snail, for instance. But is there also

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<v Speaker 1>a difference in what these animals are curious about? Like

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<v Speaker 1>dolphins world is completely different from that of a housecat,

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<v Speaker 1>so I'd imagine they'd find different things to be intrigued by.

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<v Speaker 2>Right Well, Generally speaking, curious animals are interested in the unknown,

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<v Speaker 2>like places they've never been, objects they've never encountered, and

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<v Speaker 2>individuals that they've never met. But there is some variation

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<v Speaker 2>based on the kind of information they're equipped to process.

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<v Speaker 2>For example, a rat and a maze would be curious

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<v Speaker 2>about different objects in different locations cheese, water, etc.

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<v Speaker 4>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>Scientists call this what wear memory, and it's basically the

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<v Speaker 2>starting point for learning through curiosity. But a little higher

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<v Speaker 2>up on the cognitive ladder are animals that possess what

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<v Speaker 2>whear win memory. So take hummingbirds for instance. They can

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<v Speaker 2>remember all sorts of things about the flowers from which

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<v Speaker 2>they feed, including the color location, even when they were

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<v Speaker 2>last visited, so keeping track of the time helps them

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<v Speaker 2>avoid wasting energy by visiting a flower that hasn't actually

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<v Speaker 2>had time to produce more nectar.

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<v Speaker 1>That's pretty amazing because I assume they're doing that on

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<v Speaker 1>the strength of their own personal memories, right, hummingbirds don't

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<v Speaker 1>instinctally know to wait three days or whatever before revisiting

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<v Speaker 1>the same flower. They're just making judgment calls based on

0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:09.640
<v Speaker 1>what they've noticed in their own lives.

0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:10.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:12.240
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we can't say that for certain, since hummingbirds

0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:15.040
<v Speaker 2>don't have the ability to communicate with this, but it

0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:17.199
<v Speaker 2>does seem to be the case, and there are lots

0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:20.400
<v Speaker 2>of other examples to support this theory. For instance, some

0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:23.480
<v Speaker 2>species of monkeys will actually use the weather to predict

0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:26.520
<v Speaker 2>whens the right time to revisit a fruit tree. If

0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:29.120
<v Speaker 2>the weather's been warm and sunny in between visits, they're

0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.640
<v Speaker 2>more likely to try their luck, you know, But if

0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:34.120
<v Speaker 2>it's been raining all week, they probably know it's not

0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:37.080
<v Speaker 2>worth the effort, and if that weren't impressive enough. There's

0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.840
<v Speaker 2>evidence that social animals can also be curious about individuals,

0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:44.079
<v Speaker 2>so this would be the what where, when? Who memory.

0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:47.559
<v Speaker 2>The main example of this is wild elephants, who often

0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:51.640
<v Speaker 2>split up to forage across great distances, and researchers have

0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:55.520
<v Speaker 2>found that highly dispersed elephants will investigate the dung or

0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.920
<v Speaker 2>urine they come across in their travels as a way

0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.880
<v Speaker 2>to keep track of the locations of out of sight

0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:01.760
<v Speaker 2>family members.

0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:05.200
<v Speaker 1>That is both disgusting and kind of sweet.

0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right, sniffing dung to keep your family together. If

0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:09.800
<v Speaker 2>that's not love, I don't know what is.

0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, uh, clearly there's a lot of beneficial information

0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:17.600
<v Speaker 1>that animals can learn through curiosity, and especially if they

0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:19.840
<v Speaker 1>have the brain power to keep track of who, what,

0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:23.640
<v Speaker 1>where and when? But I am curious, like, what about

0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.680
<v Speaker 1>an animal species that can also throw something like how

0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:28.920
<v Speaker 1>or why into the mix? Right, Like, do you think

0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:32.640
<v Speaker 1>there's some weird bug out there wondering how the flowers.

0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:35.800
<v Speaker 2>Grow, and I think in that scenario, I hope not.

0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:37.679
<v Speaker 2>I think you know, I don't like the idea of

0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:41.680
<v Speaker 2>a syentient insect, but much less one that understands photosynthesis.

0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:42.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't know about you.

0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:45.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean I don't even understand photosynthesis. I feel

0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:45.959
<v Speaker 1>like it's crazy.

0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.079
<v Speaker 2>That's why I called it out. But going back to

0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:51.760
<v Speaker 2>your broader question, it's tough to say like humans are

0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.800
<v Speaker 2>curious about why things happen or how stuff works, because

0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:58.160
<v Speaker 2>we're able to recognize when something we perceive doesn't align

0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.520
<v Speaker 2>with our expectations of that magician pull the rabbit out

0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:04.120
<v Speaker 2>of his hat? Why is my kid asking to skip dessert?

0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:07.640
<v Speaker 2>Those situations break from what we would expect, and we

0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:10.040
<v Speaker 2>feel a poll to find out why or how that

0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:12.520
<v Speaker 2>might be. But when it comes to other animals, they

0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.520
<v Speaker 2>seem to lack the ability or maybe the inclination, to

0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:17.440
<v Speaker 2>question root causes.

0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:17.480
<v Speaker 3>Like we do.

0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:20.360
<v Speaker 1>Well. As tempted as I am to take your word

0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:23.680
<v Speaker 1>for it, there's a recent shakeup in animal science that's

0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:25.800
<v Speaker 1>actually been giving me some pause. It has to do

0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:29.880
<v Speaker 1>with past misjudgments that humans have made about animal capabilities,

0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.000
<v Speaker 1>and it's got me thinking that animal curiosity may not

0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:35.040
<v Speaker 1>be as different from ours as we like to think.

0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:36.840
<v Speaker 1>After we take a quick break, i'm gonna tell you

0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:55.600
<v Speaker 1>all about it, so don't go anywhere. Welcome back to

0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:57.840
<v Speaker 1>part time Genius. It is day three of our week

0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:01.880
<v Speaker 1>long journey through the mysterious jungles of curiosity, and if

0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:04.520
<v Speaker 1>you've enjoyed the trip so far, please let us know

0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:08.920
<v Speaker 1>by dropping a line to High Geniuses at gmail dot com.

0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:12.480
<v Speaker 1>That's Hi, Geniuses at gmail dot com. You can also

0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:14.680
<v Speaker 1>give us a call on our hotline at three oh two,

0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:18.080
<v Speaker 1>four oh five five nine two five, or you can

0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:21.080
<v Speaker 1>come find us at Instagram or Blue Sky. No matter

0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:25.320
<v Speaker 1>which route you take, we always love hearing from you. Okay, Well,

0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.840
<v Speaker 1>so before the break, we were talking about the different

0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:31.480
<v Speaker 1>levels of curiosity that animals possess based on their abilities

0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:34.000
<v Speaker 1>to process information, and it was starting to look like

0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:36.760
<v Speaker 1>even the peak of that spectrum is still several notches

0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:38.080
<v Speaker 1>below human curiosity.

0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:40.360
<v Speaker 2>Right, But you said there's some big shakeup that's throwing

0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:41.240
<v Speaker 2>this all into question.

0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:44.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so that is something that flew under most people's radar.

0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:47.800
<v Speaker 1>But in twenty twenty four, dozens of leading scientists signed

0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:52.600
<v Speaker 1>something called quote the New York Declaration on Animal Consciousness,

0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:55.360
<v Speaker 1>and the gist of it was to announce that we

0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:58.920
<v Speaker 1>now have strong scientific evidence that birds and other mammals

0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:03.960
<v Speaker 1>experience consciousness or are self aware, and that there's quote

0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:10.200
<v Speaker 1>a realistic possibility of conscious experience in all vertebrates, including reptiles, amphibians,

0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:17.560
<v Speaker 1>and fishes, and many invertebrates, including at minimum cephalopod molus, decapod, crustaceans,

0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:18.640
<v Speaker 1>and insects.

0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:21.440
<v Speaker 2>If you're telling me there's some weird bug that wonders

0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:23.920
<v Speaker 2>how flowers grow, I swear I'm walking out of this studio.

0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:27.040
<v Speaker 1>I don't think you will.

0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:30.040
<v Speaker 2>It's like a throw in a thread every once in

0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:30.440
<v Speaker 2>a while.

0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:32.960
<v Speaker 1>But you don't have to worry because the declaration didn't

0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:35.680
<v Speaker 1>get into those kinds of specifics. The point of it

0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:39.680
<v Speaker 1>was to call for more ethical policies governing animal research

0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:43.080
<v Speaker 1>and welfare, and it was in light of those recent findings.

0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:45.440
<v Speaker 1>And I've got to tell you, I looked into some

0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.200
<v Speaker 1>of the studies myself, and they really do call a

0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:51.680
<v Speaker 1>lot of things into question, So like what exactly, Well,

0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:54.120
<v Speaker 1>for hundreds of years now, humans have been trying to

0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.600
<v Speaker 1>draw a hard line between ourselves and other animals. In

0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.760
<v Speaker 1>the sixteen hundreds, for example, the French philosophy for Renee

0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:05.560
<v Speaker 1>de Karte argued that animals were nothing but quote material automata,

0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:09.679
<v Speaker 1>so basically biological machines or robots. He didn't think they

0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:12.440
<v Speaker 1>had souls or consciousness, or even that they were capable

0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:15.960
<v Speaker 1>of basic feelings like joy or fear, and that kind

0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:19.879
<v Speaker 1>of thinking prevailed well into the twentieth century. Prominent animal

0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:25.440
<v Speaker 1>psychologists embraced behaviorism and confined their research only to observable behavior.

0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:28.919
<v Speaker 1>Like Descartes, they believed that animals lacked any sense of

0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:31.919
<v Speaker 1>self awareness, and that anyone who thought otherwise was just

0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:37.280
<v Speaker 1>being sentimental and you know, projecting human attributes onto lowlier species.

0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:39.640
<v Speaker 2>But that hasn't been the case for a while, right,

0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:42.639
<v Speaker 2>because I'm thinking of Jane Goodall, who of course passed

0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:45.800
<v Speaker 2>away recently, and she definitely didn't subscribe to the school

0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:47.240
<v Speaker 2>of thought that you're talking about.

0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.200
<v Speaker 1>That's true. But by the time she started her research,

0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:54.119
<v Speaker 1>which was obviously groundbreaking, it was the nineteen sixties and

0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.119
<v Speaker 1>scholars had come up with a laundry list of behaviors

0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:01.160
<v Speaker 1>and abilities that were supposedly exclusive to humans, and tool

0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:04.560
<v Speaker 1>making was one of them. Symbolic language, planning for the future,

0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:08.879
<v Speaker 1>emotional responses. These were all held up as concrete proof

0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:13.760
<v Speaker 1>of our uniqueness as humans. But one by one, the

0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:17.359
<v Speaker 1>work of Jane Goodall and her fellow primatologists disproved each

0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:19.320
<v Speaker 1>and every one of those presumptions.

0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:19.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:23.080
<v Speaker 2>Actually, just read this retrospective on her first big breakthrough

0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:25.800
<v Speaker 2>back in nineteen sixty and she was deep in the

0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:29.280
<v Speaker 2>forest of Tanzania when she witnessed a chimpanzee using blades

0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:32.120
<v Speaker 2>of grass and twigs to pull termites out of a.

0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:36.680
<v Speaker 1>Nest, which is obviously pretty clever for a soulless meat machine.

0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:40.000
<v Speaker 1>But what's even more amazing is that Goodall's discovery finally

0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:43.720
<v Speaker 1>helped free modern science from the restrictive grip of behaviorism.

0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:46.680
<v Speaker 1>As a result, there's been all kinds of research into

0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:50.160
<v Speaker 1>animal cognition over the past sixty years or so, and

0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:52.639
<v Speaker 1>that's why all those leading scientists felt the need to

0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:56.800
<v Speaker 1>make that big pronouncement about animal consciousness last year. So

0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.119
<v Speaker 1>many new things have come to light that challenge our

0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:04.560
<v Speaker 1>preconceived notion of intellectual and even moral superiority. For instance,

0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.199
<v Speaker 1>we now know that apes, monkeys, and elephants more in

0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:09.840
<v Speaker 1>the loss of those they formed a bond with. And

0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:14.560
<v Speaker 1>even more surprisingly, some smaller brained animals, including donkeys and ferrets,

0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:18.280
<v Speaker 1>have been observed displaying grief. That's a depth of emotion

0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.879
<v Speaker 1>that many scientists never would have ascribed to animals in

0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:21.359
<v Speaker 1>the past.

0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:23.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and what about those signs of self awareness that

0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:26.119
<v Speaker 2>the authors mention, Like they said they found evidence in

0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:28.040
<v Speaker 2>birds and even fish, right.

0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:30.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the fish studies are some of my favorites, partially

0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.240
<v Speaker 1>because of how unexpected they are. People have a tendency

0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:36.240
<v Speaker 1>to think of fish as this primitive subclass of animals,

0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:38.760
<v Speaker 1>and you always hear things like fish can't feel pain

0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:41.720
<v Speaker 1>like other conscious animals, But it turns out that that

0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:45.920
<v Speaker 1>is completely untrue. A few years back, researchers found that

0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:50.000
<v Speaker 1>when a lab zebra fish receives a painful injection, it'll

0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:52.880
<v Speaker 1>leave its favorite habitat, the one with all the nice

0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:56.760
<v Speaker 1>rocks and vegetation, to visit a boring, empty habitat where

0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:58.800
<v Speaker 1>the water has been infused with a pain reliever.

0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:01.879
<v Speaker 2>Kind of like the fish equivalent of leaving the house

0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:04.040
<v Speaker 2>to go to the doctor's office. Like, I'd to actually say,

0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:06.480
<v Speaker 2>that's a pretty compelling case for self awareness, right, But

0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:07.920
<v Speaker 2>tell me, what else you got?

0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:11.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, the one I really love is this twenty nineteen

0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.800
<v Speaker 1>study on the cleaner wrass fish. One of the loftiest

0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:18.359
<v Speaker 1>benchmarks for cognition across species is the ability to recognize

0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.600
<v Speaker 1>your own reflection in a mirror, and only a handful

0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:23.480
<v Speaker 1>of animals have been able to pass the so called

0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.720
<v Speaker 1>mirror test, and nearly all of them are large brain mammals.

0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:29.400
<v Speaker 1>One of the most notable exceptions is a bird called

0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:33.040
<v Speaker 1>the Eurasian magpie, which first aced the test back in

0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:36.080
<v Speaker 1>two thousand and eight, but the most recent graduate was

0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:37.840
<v Speaker 1>the humble cleaner rass.

0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:40.200
<v Speaker 2>I guess this is my old human bias talking here,

0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:42.600
<v Speaker 2>but it's pretty shocking that a tiny little fish could

0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:45.520
<v Speaker 2>match the wits with great apes and killer whales. Like

0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:46.480
<v Speaker 2>how they pulled that off.

0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:49.439
<v Speaker 1>The fish haven't shared their secret, but here's how the

0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:52.560
<v Speaker 1>study went. Ten fish replacing a tank with a covered mirror,

0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:55.879
<v Speaker 1>and while none of them were interested at first, once

0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:58.840
<v Speaker 1>the cover was removed, seven of the fish immediately started

0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:02.440
<v Speaker 1>attacking its thinking that the image was a rival fish.

0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:04.439
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so not a strong start here.

0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:06.520
<v Speaker 1>No, but here's the thing. After a few days, the

0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:10.159
<v Speaker 1>fish calmed down and began exhibiting these strange behaviors in

0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:13.600
<v Speaker 1>front of the mirror. First they swam upside down, which

0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:16.480
<v Speaker 1>is something that had never been seen in the species before.

0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:19.400
<v Speaker 1>It's remarkable. Then the fish started hanging out in front

0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:21.720
<v Speaker 1>of the mirror for long periods, you know, kind of

0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:24.600
<v Speaker 1>examining their own bodies and checking themselves out. I actually

0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:27.600
<v Speaker 1>find that really amazing that that happened. Like, maybe swimming

0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:29.479
<v Speaker 1>upside down was kind of an experiment, and when they

0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:31.960
<v Speaker 1>saw the mirror fish doing it, they realized they were

0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:34.840
<v Speaker 1>actually looking at themselves, Like, is that the idea? Yeah,

0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:38.199
<v Speaker 1>that's the theory. So to confirm it, the researchers actually

0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:40.880
<v Speaker 1>mark the fish with a brown pigment beneath the skin,

0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:43.800
<v Speaker 1>and it was purposely made to resemble a parasite that

0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:46.600
<v Speaker 1>often targets the species, And when the fish spotted the

0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:48.760
<v Speaker 1>mark in the mirror, some of them tried to run

0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:51.879
<v Speaker 1>it off. I mean, again, this is genuinely shocking. I

0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:53.680
<v Speaker 1>never would have thought a fish could make all those

0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:57.160
<v Speaker 1>connections and then remember them from one day to the next. Yeah,

0:21:57.320 --> 0:21:59.639
<v Speaker 1>it feels like a pretty clear case of learning by

0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:03.000
<v Speaker 1>way of curiosity. And even though the cleaner rass is

0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:05.560
<v Speaker 1>the only fish so far to pass the mirror test.

0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:10.120
<v Speaker 1>There is evidence of curiosity in other aquatic species. For example,

0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:13.160
<v Speaker 1>going back to zebrafish, there was a study in twenty

0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:17.639
<v Speaker 1>twenty two where researchers introduced thirty different objects into six

0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:21.200
<v Speaker 1>tanks of zebrafish. Each object was presented for a ten

0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:24.920
<v Speaker 1>minute period and during that time, each group's response was recorded.

0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:27.480
<v Speaker 2>And so what were the researchers looking for exactly?

0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:30.720
<v Speaker 1>So there were two main criteria. One was how long

0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:32.719
<v Speaker 1>it took the fish to approach the objects, and then

0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:35.520
<v Speaker 1>the other was how long they spent investigating each one.

0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:38.119
<v Speaker 1>But the team also kept an eye on the social

0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:41.439
<v Speaker 1>dynamics of the fish, like how the fish interacted with

0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:44.920
<v Speaker 1>each other in the presence of these objects, as well

0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:47.600
<v Speaker 1>as their diving behavior, which is a common stress response

0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:50.600
<v Speaker 1>in zebrafish. And while I don't want to get two

0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:52.520
<v Speaker 1>into the weeds with the data, I will tell you

0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:55.280
<v Speaker 1>that the fish were highly interested in the white shell

0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:58.760
<v Speaker 1>and pink spongeball, but not at all interested in the

0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:01.200
<v Speaker 1>plastic pagoda or the purple cup.

0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:03.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I can't say I blame it, Like purple cup

0:23:03.240 --> 0:23:04.320
<v Speaker 2>sounds like a snooze fest.

0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:05.399
<v Speaker 1>I'm not totally boring.

0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:09.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm assuming the fish's object preference wasn't the only takeaway

0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:11.320
<v Speaker 2>from this though, right, Yeah, the real.

0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:14.480
<v Speaker 1>Payoff was the confirmation that fish are indeed attracted to

0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:17.520
<v Speaker 1>novel objects, and that they find some to be more

0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:20.359
<v Speaker 1>interesting than others, just like terrestrial animals do.

0:23:20.520 --> 0:23:20.639
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:24.120
<v Speaker 1>But beyond that, there were also some startling discoveries about

0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:27.840
<v Speaker 1>the potential benefits of curiosity to an animal's well being.

0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:31.640
<v Speaker 1>The researchers found that zebrafish tended to fight less during

0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:36.400
<v Speaker 1>the object presentations and also exhibited far fewer stress responses.

0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:39.119
<v Speaker 2>That is really interesting. So having something new to explore

0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:41.960
<v Speaker 2>not only boosted the fish's cooperation, it also kind of

0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:42.640
<v Speaker 2>mellowed them out.

0:23:42.960 --> 0:23:46.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they stopped engaging in fight club, right, But the

0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:49.560
<v Speaker 1>team summed it up this way quote, it is possible

0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:53.280
<v Speaker 1>that zebrafish, like many other species, benefit from activities that

0:23:53.400 --> 0:23:57.480
<v Speaker 1>engage their cognitive abilities and preferences. This research builds on

0:23:57.520 --> 0:24:01.480
<v Speaker 1>our understanding of the determinants and consequence of curiosity across

0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:05.360
<v Speaker 1>species and opens new avenues of investigation regarding the role

0:24:05.440 --> 0:24:08.639
<v Speaker 1>the exploration and learning play in the lives and welfare

0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:09.240
<v Speaker 1>of fishes.

0:24:09.480 --> 0:24:11.399
<v Speaker 2>This is just super interesting to me.

0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:12.040
<v Speaker 1>All right.

0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:14.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, in honor of the zebra fish study, here's today's

0:24:14.840 --> 0:24:19.560
<v Speaker 2>listener activity. Grab an assortment of objects of various sizes, shapes, textures,

0:24:19.560 --> 0:24:22.439
<v Speaker 2>and colors, then present them one at a time. Do

0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:25.720
<v Speaker 2>any animals you have handy, preferably a pet, but a

0:24:25.760 --> 0:24:27.560
<v Speaker 2>wild one. We'll do in a pinch, so as long

0:24:27.600 --> 0:24:30.320
<v Speaker 2>as it's friendly, of course. Now keep track of how

0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:33.600
<v Speaker 2>long the animal investigates the object. Leave us a comment

0:24:33.680 --> 0:24:37.000
<v Speaker 2>in our Instagram or blue Sky detailing your results. Now,

0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:39.560
<v Speaker 2>for an extra contest entry, make a video of your

0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:43.639
<v Speaker 2>experiment and tag us. The deadline is Sunday, October twenty sixth.

0:24:43.680 --> 0:24:46.200
<v Speaker 2>We'll pick one common at random to win an official

0:24:46.320 --> 0:24:49.320
<v Speaker 2>part Time Genius Prize pack. All the details and links

0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:51.800
<v Speaker 2>are in the show notes and on our social media.

0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:55.080
<v Speaker 1>Co man, I really can't wait to see how this goes. Yeah,

0:24:55.119 --> 0:24:57.080
<v Speaker 1>how weird would it be if a purple cop turned

0:24:57.080 --> 0:24:59.399
<v Speaker 1>out to be the least appealing object across the board?

0:24:59.480 --> 0:25:01.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know this about me. Purple is definitely my

0:25:01.800 --> 0:25:04.560
<v Speaker 2>favorite color, so I'd be pretty pretty upset about that,

0:25:04.680 --> 0:25:06.880
<v Speaker 2>But not that surprising.

0:25:06.680 --> 0:25:08.320
<v Speaker 1>Right, Well, I know we've got to take one more

0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:10.159
<v Speaker 1>quick break, But when we come back, we'll look at

0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:13.680
<v Speaker 1>the surprising impact that captivity has had on animals curiosity.

0:25:13.800 --> 0:25:14.879
<v Speaker 1>Please do not go what.

0:25:30.440 --> 0:25:32.399
<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to part time genius. All right, mango, What

0:25:32.440 --> 0:25:34.760
<v Speaker 2>if I told you that life in captivity makes some

0:25:34.920 --> 0:25:37.920
<v Speaker 2>animals more curious than their wild counterparts.

0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:41.080
<v Speaker 1>I would say that the people at Big Zoo had

0:25:41.080 --> 0:25:43.919
<v Speaker 1>gotten to you, because that flies in the face of

0:25:44.080 --> 0:25:47.119
<v Speaker 1>every board of tears line I have ever crossed paths

0:25:47.160 --> 0:25:47.960
<v Speaker 1>with Big Zoo.

0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:51.040
<v Speaker 2>I like that some zoo animals do seem pretty checked

0:25:51.080 --> 0:25:53.640
<v Speaker 2>out in their enclosures. I will definitely give you that.

0:25:53.680 --> 0:25:56.800
<v Speaker 2>But there's mounting evidence, at least in some cases, that

0:25:56.880 --> 0:26:00.880
<v Speaker 2>life in captivity can actually heighten an animal's curious Now,

0:26:00.920 --> 0:26:03.040
<v Speaker 2>the largest support from this comes from a team of

0:26:03.080 --> 0:26:06.920
<v Speaker 2>primatologists at the University of Zurich who spent several years

0:26:06.960 --> 0:26:08.040
<v Speaker 2>studying orangutans.

0:26:08.400 --> 0:26:08.560
<v Speaker 4>Now.

0:26:08.600 --> 0:26:11.400
<v Speaker 2>This was both in rehabilitation centers and in the wilds

0:26:11.440 --> 0:26:12.919
<v Speaker 2>of the Sumatra and Rainforest.

0:26:13.040 --> 0:26:13.159
<v Speaker 1>Now.

0:26:13.200 --> 0:26:16.000
<v Speaker 2>Part of their job involved setting up delicate climate sensors

0:26:16.040 --> 0:26:18.879
<v Speaker 2>in the rainforest canopy, and the team was amazed to

0:26:18.920 --> 0:26:22.160
<v Speaker 2>find that the orangutans who lived there showed zero interest

0:26:22.200 --> 0:26:25.120
<v Speaker 2>in the strange equipment. This was a far cry from

0:26:25.119 --> 0:26:28.879
<v Speaker 2>the behavior of orangutans in captivity, who would routinely rifle

0:26:28.920 --> 0:26:32.679
<v Speaker 2>through trash cans, ransax stock rooms, even steel laundry that

0:26:32.720 --> 0:26:35.480
<v Speaker 2>had been hung out to dry. Now, the disparity seemed

0:26:35.520 --> 0:26:38.600
<v Speaker 2>to suggest that something about captivity had made the animals

0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:40.880
<v Speaker 2>more curious than they would have been in the wild.

0:26:41.359 --> 0:26:43.280
<v Speaker 2>So to test that theory, one of the team members

0:26:43.320 --> 0:26:47.439
<v Speaker 2>built a fake orangutan nest in the sumatrain canopy. She

0:26:47.520 --> 0:26:50.359
<v Speaker 2>then filled them with these man made objects, including a

0:26:50.359 --> 0:26:53.600
<v Speaker 2>Swiss flag and plastic fruit, and she set up motion

0:26:53.880 --> 0:26:57.159
<v Speaker 2>activated cameras to capture the wild apes reactions.

0:26:57.440 --> 0:26:59.440
<v Speaker 1>And I'm guessing they weren't that interested.

0:26:59.600 --> 0:27:02.520
<v Speaker 2>They could and care less macow over the course of

0:27:02.560 --> 0:27:05.800
<v Speaker 2>several months dozens of while the orangutans walk straight past

0:27:05.800 --> 0:27:09.000
<v Speaker 2>the items without giving them a second look. But here's

0:27:09.040 --> 0:27:12.359
<v Speaker 2>the crazy part. When another team member repeated the experiment

0:27:12.400 --> 0:27:16.720
<v Speaker 2>in multiple zoos, she got the exact opposite result. The

0:27:16.760 --> 0:27:21.440
<v Speaker 2>captive orangutans completely trash the nest in a matter of minutes. Now,

0:27:21.440 --> 0:27:25.000
<v Speaker 2>obviously that's not what we would call constructive curiosity, but

0:27:25.080 --> 0:27:28.240
<v Speaker 2>research also shows that curious orangutans are better at problem

0:27:28.359 --> 0:27:31.600
<v Speaker 2>solving than they're less curious peers. So, just like with

0:27:31.600 --> 0:27:34.680
<v Speaker 2>the zebrafish, there was a tangible benefit to seeking out

0:27:34.840 --> 0:27:36.959
<v Speaker 2>new things and reveling and exploration.

0:27:37.560 --> 0:27:39.560
<v Speaker 1>Do we have any idea why that was the case,

0:27:39.680 --> 0:27:44.320
<v Speaker 1>Like why would living in captivity make them more curious?

0:27:44.359 --> 0:27:47.720
<v Speaker 1>And also why would it improve their mental abilities? Like

0:27:47.760 --> 0:27:49.680
<v Speaker 1>it feels pretty counterintuitive.

0:27:49.920 --> 0:27:52.159
<v Speaker 2>Well, the research is gone going on this, but the

0:27:52.200 --> 0:27:55.400
<v Speaker 2>prevailing theory right now is that the animals close contact

0:27:55.440 --> 0:27:59.399
<v Speaker 2>with humans unlocked their latent capacity for curiosity, and in

0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:02.040
<v Speaker 2>cases when and that exposure happened at an early age,

0:28:02.160 --> 0:28:05.440
<v Speaker 2>it also boosted their problem solving skills later on as adults.

0:28:05.760 --> 0:28:09.400
<v Speaker 1>I assume the controlled environment played a factor in that too, right, Like,

0:28:09.560 --> 0:28:12.640
<v Speaker 1>there are no natural predators to worry about Nazoo, There

0:28:12.680 --> 0:28:15.080
<v Speaker 1>is no need to track down your next meal. That

0:28:15.160 --> 0:28:17.880
<v Speaker 1>kind of security takes off the pressure an animal might

0:28:18.000 --> 0:28:21.040
<v Speaker 1>feel in the wild, and just like humans, right like,

0:28:21.160 --> 0:28:24.080
<v Speaker 1>it might free them up to explore their space owned

0:28:24.119 --> 0:28:26.520
<v Speaker 1>skills they otherwise wouldn't have had the chance to acquire,

0:28:26.640 --> 0:28:29.240
<v Speaker 1>right Like, it frees up a lot of mental ability.

0:28:29.359 --> 0:28:31.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's exactly right. And you know the really cool

0:28:31.440 --> 0:28:34.800
<v Speaker 2>thing is this phenomenon isn't limited to orangutans. So other

0:28:34.840 --> 0:28:38.360
<v Speaker 2>researchers have found similar improvements in the problem solving skills

0:28:38.400 --> 0:28:41.800
<v Speaker 2>of other animals. They've done this with hyenas, with birds,

0:28:41.840 --> 0:28:45.120
<v Speaker 2>with monkeys, and so while life in captivity isn't without

0:28:45.160 --> 0:28:48.600
<v Speaker 2>its drawbacks, it can sometimes provide this, you know, pretty rich,

0:28:48.640 --> 0:28:51.480
<v Speaker 2>more fulfilling life for animals prone to curiosity.

0:28:52.200 --> 0:28:54.760
<v Speaker 1>I love the idea of like a super curious hyena.

0:28:54.560 --> 0:28:58.440
<v Speaker 2>Right, yeah, it's sort of scared about that idea.

0:28:58.480 --> 0:29:01.120
<v Speaker 1>I also love the idea that one animal can help

0:29:01.160 --> 0:29:04.240
<v Speaker 1>unleash the curiosity of another. You know, that we can

0:29:04.320 --> 0:29:06.960
<v Speaker 1>make animals more curious just by being close to them.

0:29:07.360 --> 0:29:10.400
<v Speaker 1>It's kind of how I imagined our own evolution went right, Like,

0:29:10.520 --> 0:29:14.760
<v Speaker 1>our prehistoric ancestors lived apart in small family units, and

0:29:14.840 --> 0:29:17.320
<v Speaker 1>that system worked well enough for us to develop basic

0:29:17.400 --> 0:29:20.400
<v Speaker 1>tools upright posture. But we didn't really invent the good

0:29:20.440 --> 0:29:24.200
<v Speaker 1>stuff like art and language until hundreds of thousands of

0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:27.120
<v Speaker 1>years later, when humans started living closer together. And this

0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:31.479
<v Speaker 1>happened through community, right, really large communities, and that close

0:29:31.560 --> 0:29:35.720
<v Speaker 1>proximity and the security, really, the security it afforded may

0:29:35.760 --> 0:29:38.880
<v Speaker 1>have been the secret sauce that propelled us up that

0:29:39.040 --> 0:29:42.960
<v Speaker 1>next wrong of the evolutionary ladder. So who knows, maybe

0:29:43.240 --> 0:29:45.640
<v Speaker 1>we can have the same effect on a different species,

0:29:45.720 --> 0:29:47.640
<v Speaker 1>like orangutans, for for instance.

0:29:47.760 --> 0:29:48.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:29:48.320 --> 0:29:50.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, if there's one thing this conversation has

0:29:50.120 --> 0:29:53.920
<v Speaker 2>taught me, it's to stop underestimating animals and humans have

0:29:53.920 --> 0:29:57.040
<v Speaker 2>spent way too long focusing on our perceived differences and

0:29:57.080 --> 0:30:01.360
<v Speaker 2>feeling threatened by these inescapable similarity. It's time we start

0:30:01.360 --> 0:30:04.200
<v Speaker 2>celebrating things we have in common, like curiosity and apparently

0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:06.040
<v Speaker 2>this mutual disdain for purple cups.

0:30:06.080 --> 0:30:07.680
<v Speaker 1>The more we talk about it, the more convinced I

0:30:07.720 --> 0:30:10.840
<v Speaker 1>am that Charles Darwin had it right all along, because

0:30:10.920 --> 0:30:13.120
<v Speaker 1>he wrote way back in the eighteen hundreds that the

0:30:13.160 --> 0:30:16.840
<v Speaker 1>difference in intellect and emotion between man and animals is

0:30:16.880 --> 0:30:20.320
<v Speaker 1>only a matter of degree, not of kind. So you know,

0:30:20.560 --> 0:30:23.320
<v Speaker 1>while there may not be a non human animal that

0:30:23.400 --> 0:30:27.440
<v Speaker 1>wonders how and why today, if you give the right

0:30:27.560 --> 0:30:30.800
<v Speaker 1>time and the right conditions, you know, maybe you wouldn't

0:30:30.840 --> 0:30:31.280
<v Speaker 1>rule it out.

0:30:31.600 --> 0:30:33.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, good old dar When ahead of the curve as usual,

0:30:34.240 --> 0:30:36.200
<v Speaker 2>I think it's a good place to leave things for today,

0:30:36.240 --> 0:30:38.280
<v Speaker 2>but be sure to tune in tomorrow, or we'll be

0:30:38.360 --> 0:30:41.200
<v Speaker 2>talking about how curiosity changes over the course of a

0:30:41.240 --> 0:30:44.000
<v Speaker 2>lifetime and how we can keep it from atrophying in

0:30:44.160 --> 0:30:44.920
<v Speaker 2>old age.

0:30:45.320 --> 0:30:47.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and be sure to follow us on Instagram and

0:30:47.840 --> 0:30:50.960
<v Speaker 1>blue sky at part Time Genius so you can keep

0:30:51.040 --> 0:30:55.080
<v Speaker 1>up with our listener activities and our giveaways. Special thanks

0:30:55.120 --> 0:30:58.800
<v Speaker 1>to Mitra Banshahi, who I absolutely love for collecting field

0:30:58.800 --> 0:31:04.200
<v Speaker 1>tape for us, and from Will, Dylan, Gabe, Mary, and myself.

0:31:04.440 --> 0:31:19.600
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for listening. Part Time Genius is

0:31:19.600 --> 0:31:23.440
<v Speaker 1>the production of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. This show is hosted

0:31:23.440 --> 0:31:27.880
<v Speaker 1>by Will Pearson and Me Mongaetikler and researched by our

0:31:27.960 --> 0:31:32.080
<v Speaker 1>good pal Mary Philip Sandy. Today's episode was engineered and

0:31:32.080 --> 0:31:35.800
<v Speaker 1>produced by the wonderful Dylan Fagan with support from Tyler Klang.

0:31:36.280 --> 0:31:39.640
<v Speaker 1>The show is executive produced for iHeart by Katrina Norvell

0:31:39.800 --> 0:31:42.840
<v Speaker 1>and Ali Perry, with social media support from Sasha Gay,

0:31:42.920 --> 0:31:47.360
<v Speaker 1>trustee Dara Potts and uy Me Shoy. For more podcasts

0:31:47.360 --> 0:31:52.200
<v Speaker 1>from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

0:31:52.320 --> 0:32:00.120
<v Speaker 1>or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. O