1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:06,279 Speaker 1: Alright, fellow Ridiculous Historians, we're returning with a classic episode 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: for this week. I've been your nol. Y it is, dude, 3 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: do you remember back in seventeen sixty two when everybody 4 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: came to see something called the Cockling Ghost? 5 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 2: How could I forget with a name like that? It's 6 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 2: seared into my memory, and boy, oh boy, hopefully it 7 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 2: will be seared into years too, Ridiculous Historians. After listening 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 2: to this classic episode. 9 00:00:37,040 --> 00:01:05,119 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome to the show. 10 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: This is Ridiculous History. We hope this is the podcast 11 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: you're looking for. I want to start with a question 12 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: that is very tangentially related. No, you're asking me, Yeah, 13 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: give it to me your nol. I'm Ben. There's our 14 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: super producer, Casey Pegram. Everyone say hi Casey, Great, Hi, 15 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: Hi Ca. See the question is this what is what's 16 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: your favorite holiday? 17 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: Ghost? Owen? Yeah? 18 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: Is that the same as Halloween? 19 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's just a ghost of your version. 20 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: Okay, that's cool, that's cool. I'm a I'm a true 21 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: fan of Halloween, and I say this in full disclosure. 22 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: As we get closer to this favored holiday, I'm going 23 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: to be pushing for more and more spooky stories. 24 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 2: You know, you push and you push and you push, 25 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 2: and sometimes, Ben sometimes you get what you need. There 26 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 2: we go. 27 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: If you try, sometimes you just might find Today's story 28 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: is a ghost story. 29 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's also a story of people trying things 30 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 2: yes on multiple levels. 31 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: And it's a story that I could see Guy Ritchie 32 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: doing an adaptation of, oddly enough, because it has that 33 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 1: right element of the ced underside of England. 34 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 2: Well, like, didn't he do one of the Sherlock Holmes movies. 35 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: He did? I believe he did. Yeah, all right, that's 36 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 2: been Casey on the case. 37 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: We always have to try to have at least one 38 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: Casey on the case. 39 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 2: That one was unexpected. Yeah, he just kind of popped in. 40 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: I like sudden Death Court. 41 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 2: I like it. He has this button out there that 42 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 2: he has to hit and it's pretty cool. 43 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're all getting the hang of it, and I 44 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: think it's I think it's normalized now. 45 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 2: So Guy Ritchie probably would do a good job with 46 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 2: this because it's got a lot of Cockney accents too, 47 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 2: and a lot of usury and the loan sharkiness afoot 48 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 2: and a. 49 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: Lot of scams and cons but without further ado, let 50 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: us present the story of the cock Lane Ghost. But 51 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: we can't begin in cock Lane, right. We have to 52 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: begin first with a pair of lovers, a William Kent 53 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: and Elizabeth Lynes, who married in about seventeen fifty six 54 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: or seventeen fifty seven. 55 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 2: That's very true. And tragically the then missus Kent died 56 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 2: in childbirth, leaving her husband William, to take care of 57 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 2: a newborn baby boy. 58 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: And this was in Stoke Ferry. Kent had kept an 59 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: inn and then later he was running the local post office. Now, 60 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: all of a sudden he was a single father, or 61 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: was he? You see, because Elizabeth had a sister, and 62 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: her sister's name was Francis, commonly known as Fanny's. 63 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 2: Right, and Fanny swooped in to help out with the 64 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: childcare because Kent found himself. I don't know. There's no 65 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 2: exact details as to why he couldn't raise the child himself, 66 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: but he seemed inept at the at the whole affair, 67 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 2: and so he needed a woman's touch. 68 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, And unfortunately, the infant, who was a boy, did 69 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: not survive for very long. And when the child unfortunately 70 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: passed away, childhood mortality being at a much higher rate 71 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: in those days. Fanny decided to stay on and become 72 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: kind of a housekeeper for William. But soon they began 73 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: having their own amorous relationship. 74 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think there was even a time where 75 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 2: he kind of sent her away and she wrote him 76 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 2: letters saying, you know, kind of I don't want to 77 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,919 Speaker 2: say begging, but you know, expressing that her love for 78 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 2: him was real and that he should, you know, welcome 79 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 2: her back with open arms. And eventually it worked and 80 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 2: they ended up together. But this is interesting because she 81 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 2: was a relative of his former wife. It was not 82 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 2: kosher for them to get married. It was it was 83 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 2: against the law. Yeah, it was. 84 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: Against canon law for them to be married. And this 85 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: is something that they were both aware of, and it's 86 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: one of the suspected motivations pushing William Kent to originally 87 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: leave Fanny and move to London, but she wins him 88 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: over with these passionate letters, and so he eventually says, Okay, 89 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: come move with me, Come meet me in London. I 90 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: live in East Greenwich. And they decide that they're gonna, 91 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: you know, canon law be darned, They're going to live 92 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: together as man and. 93 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 2: Wife, canon law being like of the Catholic Church. 94 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: Not so much Catholic, not so much Catholic. This is England. 95 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: I mean, canon law can be any organized religions law, 96 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: but so the c all right, So the Anglican Church 97 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: and the Methodists will also appear and here later. Despite 98 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: the fact that they have decided to in practice disobey 99 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: canon law, they do try to keep it on what 100 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: we would call in the modern day the low. They 101 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: keep it on the down low. They still have wills 102 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 1: in each other's favor, but they're trying to be discreet 103 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: about this. They don't want a bunch of people to 104 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: know what they're doing. And they are not very successful 105 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: with this because they moved to some rooms near a 106 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: place called the Mansion House. They're renting these rooms, and 107 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: historians believe the landlords may have learned about this illicit 108 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: relationship from Fanny's other surviving relatives. And this is where 109 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: we have to start talking about Kent's job. What does 110 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: Kent do? Noel, Well, this took me. 111 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 2: A couple of passes of some of this research material 112 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 2: to read until I happened upon an article by our 113 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,799 Speaker 2: good pals of the Daily Mail. Who you know, aren't 114 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 2: exactly the most reputable source for stuff like this, but 115 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: they had a really good write up about this party 116 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: story that Real quickly called him for what he was, 117 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 2: which is a loan shark, because he had done this 118 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 2: several times. Because I was reading another article where it 119 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 2: kept saying how he was always loaning his landlord's money, 120 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 2: and at first I thought I was misreading it, like 121 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 2: does this do they mean the landlords were loaning him 122 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 2: money and getting mad because he wasn't paying. No, he 123 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 2: was loaning the money and then always got into trouble 124 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 2: because of disputes about you know, how he was going 125 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 2: to get paid back, And I think you use the 126 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 2: term usury. 127 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a user, which I would phrase as a 128 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: loan shark today, a user being someone who makes questionable 129 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: loans with unfair interest rates. And originally usery meant any 130 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,239 Speaker 1: sort of interest of any kind. However, in this case 131 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: it was like his job. He loaned people money and 132 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: they were supposed to pay him back. This goes sour 133 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: when their landlord at these rooms near the mansion house 134 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: decides that, hey, these people are living in sin. I 135 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: despise this. I am not going to repay that money 136 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,239 Speaker 1: that you loaned me, mister Kent, and I read somewhere 137 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: as the equivalent of about twenty pounds today, probably a 138 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: little bit more than twenty pounds today. And so Kent 139 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: moved to have that landlord arrested, which could only bring 140 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: tensions to the house. 141 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think you know they were asked to leave, right, 142 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 2: They were evicted over this dispute. 143 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: They were evicted over this dispute. They had to find 144 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: somewhere else to live. Around about this time, they meet 145 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,959 Speaker 1: a clerk, a parish clerk by the name of Richard Parsons. 146 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a clerk at the Church of the Holy. 147 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: Sepulcher, Saint Sepulcher without Newgate. 148 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 2: Okay, well I made the first part up, but I 149 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: was closed. I got the keyword right, which is a 150 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 2: crazy word, a Sepulcher. I just love it. I love 151 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 2: goth sounding dash without Newgate. Yeah, where's Newgate in all this? 152 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: It's not there, that's for sure. 153 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 3: I know. 154 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 2: Wow, Yeah, I don't understand, but yeah, that religious connection 155 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 2: is going to come into play here pretty shortly. But yeah, no, 156 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 2: sooner do they move in that he Kent loans this 157 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 2: guy Parsons another sum of money with the terms of 158 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 2: a guinea a month in interest. 159 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: Right, he's got twelve. He loans them twelve guineas and 160 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 1: they're supposed to be repaid at that rate. Right, So oh, 161 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: we should mention the most important part. When Parsons hears 162 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: about their plight, he is sympathetic and he says, hey, 163 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: you can use these rooms. You can live in these 164 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: rooms in my home on cock Lane, which is just 165 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: north of this church. And yes, Nola is absolutely right here. 166 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 1: Shortly after, mister and missus Ken as they were calling 167 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: themselves at the time, scandal casey, can I get a 168 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: gasp from the crowd? Perfect? Right as they were moving in, 169 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: Kent loaned parsons is twelve guineas. And then it was 170 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: shortly after that Kent goes to visit someone I think 171 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: for a wedding outside like he leaves town, and then 172 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: they hear these reports of strange noises. 173 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. But before that, this landlord also discovered 174 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: the nature of their relationship and held that over Kent's 175 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 2: head again as a way of saying, I'm not paying 176 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 2: back this money because I got some dirt on you. 177 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, because he knew about their plight of needing a 178 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: place to live, but maybe he did not know the 179 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: full extent of why they were out of house and home. 180 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: So at some point he found out, right. 181 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: Oh he did, he did, and it's not clear exactly 182 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: how he found out, probably a very similarly to I 183 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 2: don't know, maybe yeah, maybe another snitching relative. Because you 184 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 2: have to remember too that this guy was doing something 185 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 2: pretty untoward in the puritanical eyes of the time. He 186 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 2: was carrying on with the sister of his dead wife, 187 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 2: which would have been frowned upon in this kind of society. 188 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,959 Speaker 1: In many places, it's still probably frowned upon today. Of 189 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: Parsons was a family man himself. 190 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 2: But also apparently a bit of an alcoholic. Yeah yeah. 191 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: He was considered a generally nice guy around town, but 192 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: known luckily as a drunk with money problems, so he 193 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: definitely needed those twelve guineas to support his wife and 194 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: his two daughters. He had one daughter in particular, is 195 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: very important to this story, named Elizabeth or also called 196 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: Betty by her friends and familiars, and kent. When he 197 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: traveled away from town, he asked Elizabeth to stay with Fanny, 198 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: because Fanny, by this point was months pregnant. 199 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 2: But then, yeah, as fate would have it, the story 200 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 2: takes another unfortunate turn where Fanny dies of smallpox, taking 201 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 2: along with her unborn child. Yeah. 202 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: So the very first reports of these noises come from Elizabeth, 203 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: Betty and Fanny, and at first Missus Parsons attributes them 204 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 1: to a shoemaker, and people are kind of creeped out, 205 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: but they're trying to figure out what's happening there, and 206 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: Kent decided. Here's how the death went down. Kent decided 207 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: that they needed to move to another place, but the 208 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: place was not suitable. The place that they were living 209 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: in temporarily was not suitable for a woman so far 210 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: along in pregnancy. And as you said, on February second, 211 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: seventeen sixty, Fanny Lyle, also known as Missus Kent, passed 212 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: away with their child. Kent is the sole executor of 213 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: the will, the living mister Kent, but he had very 214 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: valid fears about being legally in hot water if people 215 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 1: knew about the true nature of their relationships, right, and 216 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: the will, he's just mister Kent. 217 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think Fanny's brother had passed recently as well, 218 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 2: leaving her his portion of the family estate or whatever. 219 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, one and fifty pounds. 220 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, which was nothing to sneeze at. So Kent was 221 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 2: due a decent little chunk of change. I want to 222 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 2: I want to mention one thing too. There was a 223 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 2: great podcast episode from a show called Dig a Dig 224 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 2: podcast dot Org on the Cocklane Ghost of London, and 225 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 2: it had a few details in it that I thought 226 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 2: were super interesting. One of which was and I've seen 227 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 2: this in a couple other places too, but I like 228 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 2: the way they put it that as Fanny was on 229 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 2: her deathbed, there are multiple reports of people in the 230 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 2: area in the home seeing a ghosts or as some 231 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 2: sort of apparition manifest in the home while while Frank 232 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 2: Fanny was still alive. So the story gets really confusing 233 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 2: it in places. I'm gonna go ahead and put that 234 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 2: out there right now, because the noises happened before Fanny died, 235 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 2: and there was a sense are some local reports that 236 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: it was actually Kent's deceased. 237 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: Wife, right, his original. 238 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 2: Wife coming around and making trouble and rattling chains because 239 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 2: she was unhappy about said carryings on with her sister 240 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Lines. 241 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, so what's key to notice here? As we established 242 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: earlier those strange sounds begin as soon as Elizabeth enters 243 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: the picture, the younger, the Elizabeth Parsons. 244 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 2: Elizabeth the daughter Buddy. Yes, the daughter of the landlord. 245 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: Yes, the daughter of the landlord Parsons. And despite the 246 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: problems that they have regarding these strange phenomenon, when Fanny 247 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: passes away, the Parsons family hears no more of these 248 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: strange noises, and they kind of shrugged it off as 249 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: just one of the things. There's a great blog called 250 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: Strange Company which builds this as a walk on the 251 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: weird side of history, and they break down some of 252 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: the financial stuff here. At the time the two families left. 253 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: At the time Kent moved himself and his wife out 254 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: of the Parsons household, Parsons still owed Kent three guineas 255 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: of those twelve v you have been loaned. So Kent 256 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: takes Parsons to court, and he takes him to court successfully, 257 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: he collects the three guineas. Now it's January seventeen sixty two, 258 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: and guess what, the strange noises start up again, even 259 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: louder and more vehemently than before. 260 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 2: Have we described these sounds yet been there? There were 261 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 2: a couple of variations that we'll get into, but the 262 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 2: main one was something of a scratch. 263 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: Right. Originally they were knocks and then they became scratch. 264 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: Is the second time they surfaced. 265 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's crazy that the the evolution of this sound. 266 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 2: You know, there's always that you think. I think've mentioned 267 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 2: this on another show before, but remember that episode of 268 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 2: Curb Your Enthusiasm where Larry is obsessed with the house sound. Yeah, 269 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 2: we play that clip real quick. It's the noise is 270 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 2: you're a noise? Yeah? What is it? It's probably just 271 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: a house sound or something a house sound? Yeah, what's 272 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 2: a house sound? 273 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: It also reminds me of that trope in so many 274 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: horror films where someone goes, it's only the wind. In 275 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: this case, they're like, trouble, not young Betty, tis only 276 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: the cobbler. 277 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 2: Tis but a cobbler tinkering away? 278 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:57,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. 279 00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 2: So cobblers can tinker, but can tinker's cobble? 280 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: Anyone can cobble. The difference is whether you can cobble well. 281 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: I see, I see, if you can cobble well enough 282 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: to trust trust your shoes afterwards. In this case, the 283 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: shoemaker just makes that one appearance. Cobbler guy does not 284 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: come back afterwards, but the noises do. As we said, 285 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 1: they came back with a vengeance right after that court 286 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 1: case was decided in Kent's favor. 287 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 2: That's right. And at this point it's become a bit 288 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 2: of a of a local phenomenon, hasn't it. And the 289 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 2: ghost has earned a nickname, a rather baldy nickname. 290 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: You say, you're talking about the Cocklane Ghost. 291 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 2: No, No, scratch and Fanny. 292 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 1: Scratch and Fanny, Okay, yes, they're. 293 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 2: Both kind of body if we're being honest. 294 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: They're body to us. 295 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 296 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: I think for them, Cocklane was just the name of 297 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: their streets. 298 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 2: No, totally, But scratch and Fanny right over there, Fanny 299 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:51,959 Speaker 2: doesn't mean the same thing as it means over here. 300 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 2: I'm just gonna put that out. 301 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: That's absolutely true. A lot of your British fins will 302 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: find the term fanny pack hilarious. 303 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 2: And scratch and Fanny just sounds like something. 304 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: Something told me. So we can conjecture a bit on 305 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: how the community and neighborhood found out about this phenomenon 306 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: and how the Cockling Ghost or Scratching Fanny acquired this 307 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: early renown. They had checked originally with this cobbler to 308 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: see if the cobbler was working during the time that 309 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: they heard these noises. 310 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 2: Oh, was it not on a Sunday? 311 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: It was it was at a time when he wouldn't 312 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: be working. I think it was a Sunday Sunday, so 313 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: that makes sense. And a neighbor named James Franzen said 314 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: that he saw a strange white figure drifting through the 315 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: Parsons home back when, back when Fanny was still alive. 316 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 2: That's the one we talked about earlier, the apparition that 317 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 2: was when she was on her deathbed or whatever, and 318 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 2: that's the guy. 319 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: He also said that he heard ghostly knockings in his 320 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: own bedchamber. So picture this guy at the local pub 321 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: around with his buddies, right. That's how these words and 322 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: rumors spread. And now people are starting not only to 323 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: report the ghosts, but to ascribe motive to scratching Fanny. 324 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: So they said that she was not here just to 325 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: make a hubbub and a hullabaloo, but that she was 326 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: here with a mission. She was trying to get justice 327 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: beyond the grave. And people started to play back the 328 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: details of Fanny's death and life to themselves and they 329 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: started saying, eh, what Fanny might a will leave it? 330 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: Everything she owned? Took Kent everything she had, every lost 331 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: faulthing in it, ate it. And then they noticed that 332 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: Fanny's surviving sister Anne had arrived for the funeral and 333 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 1: was very upset that she couldn't take a look at 334 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: her sister in the grave. I think they couldn't open 335 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: the coffin for her. And then she said that, at 336 00:19:54,160 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: least allegedly, Anne said that Kent had done something dastardly 337 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: and that Fanny's surviving siblings were all in good repair 338 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: with her, you know what I mean. They got along. 339 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: There wasn't any sibling hate or rivalry. 340 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 2: So why would she have left her fortune to this 341 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 2: loan shark dude? Right? You know, surely that was not 342 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: a respected profession in those days. He would have been 343 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 2: seen as a bit of a confidence man, almost right. 344 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: I mean, loans in general were always a hot button issue. 345 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: He was called a userer, not exactly kind words. Right, 346 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: So people started thinking that mister William Kent was not 347 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: quite the grief stricken widow that he appeared to be. 348 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 2: I don't think I think it's time we get into 349 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 2: when the church starts getting involved, what do you think? 350 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: Sure, So let's talk a little bit about the people 351 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: who are starting to observe this stuff. We have friends 352 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: and walking by first and neighbor, and then we have 353 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: more people in the community finding out. But the word 354 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: of this spreads through London proper, beyond the neighborhoods of 355 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: the entire city London Town, so strangers are stopping by, 356 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: Oh totally. 357 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 2: And I actually saw one mention about how it had 358 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 2: made the narrow little side street of cock Lane Versus 359 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 2: virtually impassable because it was like, you know, just picture 360 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 2: some sort of street side attraction and people just bequeued 361 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 2: up outside and you know, blocking the road. I mean 362 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 2: it was totally like that, Like it was definitely chock 363 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 2: full of lookie. 364 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: Loose, right, and there was no assigned time at which 365 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: the apparently unearthly phenomenon would occur, so people would just 366 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 1: stay out in the street waiting and drinking. And some 367 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: famous people started to observe this too. 368 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 2: Well that's true, but that's when really things started heating 369 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 2: up was when Parsons himself. We remember he was a 370 00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 2: clerk at the most Holy Church of the Separate Without 371 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 2: with you Newgate, that's the one. And he had some connects. 372 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 2: One of these was a guy by the name of 373 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 2: John Moore who was an assistant preacher at Saint Sepulchers 374 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 2: without Newgate as without Newgate, and he was also the 375 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 2: rector at a place called Saint Bartholomew the Great, which 376 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 2: was over in West Smithfield. And he, I don't know, 377 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 2: for lack of a better term, was like an exorcist, right. 378 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 2: He was coming in there because there was also talk 379 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 2: that young Elizabeth, the daughter of the landlord, mister Parsons, 380 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 2: was possibly. 381 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: Possessed, right, because the thing that we would refer to 382 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: as a poultry geist today seem to be closely associated 383 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: with her, with Elizabeth Parsons specifically. Interesting, yeah, right, And 384 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: one of the things that Parsons really wanted more to 385 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: help him do was to be a subject matter expert 386 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 1: and establish first that there have been reports of Fanny's 387 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: sister Elizabeth appearing in ghostly form as Fanny was laying 388 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: in her deathbed. And then they said, okay, well, the 389 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: spirit that's haunting the Parsons house now, and particularly Elizabeth Parsons, 390 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: must be the spirit of Fanny herself. Hence scratching Fanny. 391 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: This didn't sound too out of the ordinary, impossible back 392 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: then in England, because there was a widespread belief in 393 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 1: ghost you know, Shakespeare's been around their ghost of plenty, 394 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 1: and the literature and the folklore of the time. 395 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 2: Well, I certainly think folks who are a lot more 396 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 2: willing to accept the stuff without any proof, imaginations running 397 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 2: wild like they do. And also just the kind of 398 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 2: zealous religious nature of the time, and the fact that 399 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 2: a member of the clergy would take this issue that 400 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 2: seriously speaks to the mindset I think the public. Right. 401 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, And here's the other part. They did see themselves 402 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: as rational investigators, because you see, they devised a method 403 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: of attempting to communicate with the ghost, transforming back from 404 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: scratchings to knocks, right, And they said, maybe we can 405 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 1: speak with this ghost through a very simple system, and 406 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 1: we can make sure it can hear us and respond 407 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: to us with these sounds it's making. And we'll set 408 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: up a system and we'll explain it aloud to the 409 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 1: ghost or the entity, so that the ghost then knows 410 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: the rules of interaction, and we'll keep it simple, so 411 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: no Morse code, nothing like that. Morse code wasn't around 412 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: by that time. 413 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 2: What's the system? 414 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 3: Then? 415 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 1: Well, if there's a question where the answer is yes, 416 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: you have one knock, there's an answer with the question 417 00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 1: is no, you have two knocks. But here's my question, like, 418 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 1: what's the space between two knocks and right? And does 419 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: it all get all gummed up when you ask things 420 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: that aren't yes or no questions? You know what I mean? 421 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 2: That was a collap I think for the rest of 422 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 2: the podcast, Ben, I would like to communicate back with 423 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 2: you only with knocks, only with yes or no responses. 424 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 2: Is that okay? So what was the line of questioning? 425 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: Ben? 426 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 2: That the that the the exor system? I call him that? 427 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 2: How did he start grilling the ghost? 428 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: It's interesting because we have the we have the questions, 429 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: and we're fairly certain that we have the actual exact 430 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: questions because we found them in a couple of different sources. 431 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: I found them in a book called The Cocklayin and 432 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,719 Speaker 1: Ghosts by a guy named Paul Chambers, and I think 433 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: they've been printed out in another couple of places. But 434 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 1: we're we're fairly certain these are the actual questions. Let's see, 435 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: do you want to be the priest? Or do you 436 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: want to be the ghost dealer's choice, Ben, Dealer's choice, 437 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: his choice, all right, I think you would be great 438 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: for the character of the priest. 439 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 2: Ben. Thank you. First of all, I want to preface 440 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 2: by saying that these are some pretty leading questions for 441 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 2: this ghost, but just the same we're going to present 442 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 2: them here without comment. 443 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: Casey, can we get some tense music? 444 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 3: Are you the wife of mister Kent? Did you die naturally? 445 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 3: Was that two or three knocks? 446 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 2: Okay? Then by poison? 447 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: Imagine a pregnant pause here, did. 448 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 2: Any person other than mister Kent administer it? And then 449 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 2: at this point somebody in the audience shouts. 450 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: Has to ask the ghost if you shall be hanged? 451 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 2: And the question was asked and the ghost responded lustly. 452 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: Yikes, I know, yeah, trial by ghost to maybe maybe 453 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: by ghost. So this is a to some people, to 454 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: the more religiously minded, this is a damning smoking gun 455 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: for mister William Kent, because. 456 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,439 Speaker 2: There's already that hubbub around town about why would she 457 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,360 Speaker 2: have left him all of her possessions when she had 458 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 2: no falling out with her living family? 459 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: Right, So as as this ghost quote unquote ghost is 460 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: answering further questions, people decide that she had not died 461 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: from smallpox, but rather specifically from arsenic poisoning, and according 462 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: to their theory, the arsenic had been given to Fanny 463 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: by Kent himself two hours before she died, and now 464 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: again allegedly her spirit had returned for vengeance. 465 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 2: And this experiment was repeated several additional times. On January fifth, 466 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 2: a guy, reverend by the name of Thomas Broughton, came 467 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,439 Speaker 2: to the house and checked out the hauntings. And we 468 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 2: start seeing this popping up in the papers, and them 469 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 2: they kind of this guy's being kind of tried in 470 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 2: the court of public opinion, because public opinion leans pretty 471 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 2: heavily on the word of ghosts. 472 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: Apparently right, the public ledgers started publishing regular accounts of 473 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: the Cockling ghost phenomenon, and more and more people would 474 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: read the paper and say, you know that William Kent 475 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: is a murderer. And Kent vowed to clear his name. 476 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: So he brought in two of the doctors who had 477 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: taken care of Fanny in her last days, along with 478 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: Reverend Broughton, and took them to cock Lane and said, okay, 479 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: let's do a seance. This seance did not go the 480 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: way that they thought it would. Started with a relative 481 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: of the Parson family, a lady named Mary Fraser, running 482 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: around the room shouting Fanny, Fanny, why don't you come, 483 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: do come, pray Fanny come. Nothing happened, according to Moritz, 484 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: because they were too noisy. 485 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 2: There's a pretty incredible article that I found that's from 486 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 2: the Derby Mercury, which was a paper of note, and 487 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 2: it's it's almost impossible to fully read because it really 488 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 2: is written in like almost Canterbury Tales type language. 489 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's a large font to where the lowercase 490 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: s's look like lowercase f's. This is the one from 491 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: January twenty first, one twenty second. 492 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 2: That's right. Priced it two pence and a halfpenny. 493 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: It's a steal. You just don't know who's getting robbed. 494 00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 495 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: The Derby Mercury reported pretty intensively on this during the 496 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: time that it was happening. Are you wanna go for 497 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: some interpretations here? 498 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,239 Speaker 2: Know, I was thinking you might be able to. I 499 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 2: was having a hard time. Let's see if we can 500 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 2: find a choice graph. 501 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: It begins with for some time past, a great knacking 502 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: having been heard in the night that the officiating parish 503 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: clerks of Saint Sepulchers in Cocklane near Smithfield, to the 504 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: great terror of the family, and all means used to 505 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: discover the meaning of it. Four gentlemen set up there 506 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: on Friday night, among whom was a clergyman who asked 507 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: various questions. Questions is capitalized. 508 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 2: I feel like we have to say it that way. Yeah, 509 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 2: And the has really thrown me for a loop. Can 510 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 2: can I give it a try? Yeah, give it a go. 511 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 2: On his asking if anyone had been mad dad, nothing answered, 512 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 2: But on his asking if anyone had been poisoned, it's 513 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 2: knocked six times. Various are the conjectures in the neighborhood 514 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 2: of this supposed specter, but the cause as yet has 515 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 2: not been discovered. My accent shifting. The report current in 516 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 2: the neighborhood is that a woman was some time ago 517 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 2: poisoned and buried at Saint John's clerking well. 518 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: And it goes on in detail, offering these question and 519 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: answer sessions across various days. 520 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 2: As proof. 521 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: There are some parts of the narrative where you see 522 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: investigators asking the ghost to identify how many people were 523 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: present in the room, and even asking to the ghost 524 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: to predict the future as well. So one of the 525 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: questions is how long would it be before William Kent 526 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: was executed? And they said three years. 527 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 2: Wow. 528 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: And the ability to see into the future is another 529 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: trait commonly associated with ghosts or those who dwell beyond 530 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: the veil. 531 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,239 Speaker 2: Yes, but it's really kind of unconfirmable, isn't it. I mean, 532 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 2: I could he could have said thirty years, he could 533 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 2: have said two weeks, and. 534 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: We shall us. I mentioned at this time William Kent 535 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: is married. He has his third wife, not related to 536 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: his previous two. And as they were holding these seances, 537 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: the Lord Mayor of London becomes involved, and they also 538 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: start moving Elizabeth the young Elizabeth Elizabeth Parsons two different 539 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: houses to conduct seances because they say the ghost is 540 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: somehow associated with her. 541 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 2: Huh huh interesting phua thunket. 542 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: And also, there's just no way we can get through 543 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: cock Lane the crowds are too pressing, so we have 544 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: to try somewhere else. 545 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 2: Will you do some like pop up seances? Ywhere? 546 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 3: Yeah? 547 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, London Town. 548 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: So shall we get to the twist if you haven't 549 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:50,959 Speaker 1: already predicted it, here's another twist? 550 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's just let's go for it. 551 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: They keep having seances, and more and more notable people come. 552 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: One seance in way of seventeen sixty two, a doctor 553 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: Samuel Johnson is allowed to visit the seance. And what 554 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: did they find there? 555 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 2: No, Well, and you may recall earlier that there was 556 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 2: some talk of the ghost being kind of emanating or 557 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 2: being associated with Elizabeth Parsons. Well, yeah, it turns out 558 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 2: she'd been hiding some woodblocks up her skirt and banging 559 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 2: them together, making those knocks. 560 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, she had hidden the wood in her clothes, and 561 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: following a trial like she was busted, busted, they found 562 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: the little pieces of wood, and it explained all the 563 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: past imperfections of seances where they said, oh, we have 564 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: to do it with the lights low, or we can't. 565 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 1: The knocking stops if you look under the table where 566 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: the kid's legs are. So Elizabeth Parsons comes clean. She 567 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: says she's doing this because her dad made her. 568 00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 2: That's right, the dad, the drunk who had apparently drunk 569 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 2: his one guinea a month interest payments away after he 570 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,359 Speaker 2: tried to extort Kent. See, I don't think Kent comes 571 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 2: off as a bully in this story I think Parsons 572 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 2: comes off as more of the bully here. Kent's just 573 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 2: trying to apply his trade. Man, He's not forcing anybody 574 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 2: to take the loan, He's just offering it, you know. 575 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe that makes me sound like a 576 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 2: bad guy, but that's how I feel. So, yeah, it 577 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 2: was all in revenge of like him bringing legal action 578 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,720 Speaker 2: against this guy. And you know, if you could accuse 579 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 2: Kent of being anything, it was cheap because a guinea 580 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,479 Speaker 2: isn't a lot, I don't believe. And we talked about 581 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 2: these being usurists' rates because you know, it almost sounds 582 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 2: like I think it was a twelve guinea loan and 583 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 2: he was supposed to pay back that one guinea a month. 584 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: Yep, and didn't get to go didn't go to court 585 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: until it was down to three guinea a month or 586 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: three guinea total. 587 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 2: Yes, And I think that Kent took him to court 588 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 2: even though it wasn't even that much money, was more 589 00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,319 Speaker 2: for the principle of the thing as far as he 590 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 2: was concerned. I think in what I'm getting at is 591 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 2: that clearly the villain here is not Kent, despite you know, 592 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 2: maybe maybe it's not cool that he married his uh 593 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 2: or semi married his dead wife's sister. But I don't know. 594 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 2: She was there for him, she helped him raise the child. 595 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 2: They shared a tragedy together, you know, when this child died. 596 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,760 Speaker 2: That seems fine to me. So, yeah, it's very difficult. 597 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 1: I would say, unfair to ascribe those personal motives if 598 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: we don't really. 599 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 2: Know this story. 600 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: So I would I would say from their behavior, it 601 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: seems like as a couple they were on the up 602 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: and up, despite the fact that society didn't approve of them. Ultimately, 603 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: society does side with mister Kent at least because Parsons 604 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: goes to trial and he is sentenced to two years 605 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: in jail. 606 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he even has a co conspirator, which I 607 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 2: believe was his his maid, Mary Fraser mayor Mary Fraser, 608 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 2: not to be confused with friends. And there's a lot 609 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 2: of a lot of characters and names in this story. 610 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,040 Speaker 2: It's it's a little bit of a tricky woman. This 611 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 2: is good. She gets six months hard labor, which is 612 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 2: no good. What happened to the daughter though she was 613 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 2: because she was a minor, she didn't get anything. You 614 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 2: don't hear about anything happening to her but it seems 615 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 2: like she was the one perpetrating the ruse. Maybe it 616 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 2: was just because he was contributing to her delinquency. But 617 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 2: she was like twenty years old. I believe she was 618 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 2: of age. 619 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 1: She had grown by that time, but it was probably 620 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: still thought to be a hapless pawn. Yeah, that's straying 621 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:30,439 Speaker 1: the wishes of her parents and additionally Parsons who said 622 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: he was innocent by the way the whole time and 623 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: never confessed was pilloried. A pillary for anyone who you 624 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: kind of recall the term but you don't know exactly 625 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: what it is. A pillary is when people are putting 626 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: those weird stocks that hold them at their neck and 627 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: their wrists. It's a form of public humiliation. 628 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 2: Does not sound like fun. Yeah they dude at the 629 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 2: Renaissance fair though here in Atlanta. 630 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: Yes, But in contrast to the way the crowds would 631 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: treat other criminals in the pillary, people didn't throw rotten 632 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,919 Speaker 1: fruit and meat at him. They actually took the opportunity 633 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: to walk around and collect money for. 634 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 2: Him for his cause. 635 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: Interesting because no matter what he had done, he still 636 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: hadn't married the sister of his dead wife. 637 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 2: Wow man full circle so it really is more of 638 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 2: a puritanical judgment at the end of the day. 639 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: A little, a little bit more, and there's much more 640 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 1: to the story regarding the cultural context of the time, 641 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:34,399 Speaker 1: the religious controversy between Methodists and Orthodox Anglicans, but that 642 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: may be a tale for another day. We hope you 643 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: enjoy the story of this early spiritual investigation skepticism versus 644 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 1: spirituality versus scandal. But this is far from the only 645 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,320 Speaker 1: ghost story that we'll tell eventually, right. 646 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, he said, we're gonna really lean into some ghost 647 00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 2: stories for the month of October. 648 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: Maybe, I say, I would love to. Well, we are 649 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 1: nothing if not a democracy, right, so that's fair. Write 650 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 1: to us and let us know if there are any 651 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: spooky stories from history that you think your fellow ridiculous 652 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 1: historians would like to hear. And also, you know, write 653 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,760 Speaker 1: to us if you're like, no, don't tell any spooky stories. 654 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can write to us at ridiculous at HowStuffWorks 655 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,839 Speaker 2: dot com. You can hit us up on Facebook or 656 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 2: Instagram or we're Ridiculous History. Please also join our Facebook 657 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 2: group where we have lots of fun discussions and that's 658 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 2: a good place to post any suggestions for us as well, 659 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 2: because we do kind of hang out in there and 660 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 2: that's called ridiculous historians on Facebook. Big thanks to super 661 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 2: producer Casey Pegram and Alex Williams, who composed our theme. 662 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: As well as Christopher ajaciotis our research associate erstwhile cameo 663 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: expert on the show. We need to have him back 664 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: on soon, as well as Eve's Jeffcoat. And big thanks 665 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: to you NOL and big thanks to. 666 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 2: You listeners, and please stick around for our next episode 667 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 2: where we talk about what happened to the mad hatter 668 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 2: who killed the man who killed Abraham Lincoln. It's a doozy, folks. 669 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: That's all for today. I guess we could end on 670 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 1: a knock knock joke. 671 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 2: Sure. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 672 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,840 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.