WEBVTT - And, This Is Why Reid Hoffman Doesn’t Fear Artificial Intelligence 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:04.880 Corruption. We're living in the greatest hyptocracy. You're in my lifetimes. 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:09.399 Someone gets you a billion dollars in crypto, you'r bot period. 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:11.720 So the question is where do they go as they 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:15.480 get more power than The answer is Elon became a narcissist. 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:24.400 This is Gavin Newsom and this is read Offman. Well, welcome, 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:26.920 my pleasure to be here the first time in the 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:27.520 Governor's match. 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:29.840 It is not bad, right, yes, bad, and it's you know, 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:32.960 it's you know now, I don't know, it's not, but 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:35.000 it's you know, we're blessed to be here, but I'm 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:35.559 blessed to be here. 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:37.520 Look how many books you written? Six? 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:42.440 Six best selling books? Two podcasts one's not enough. 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.519 Yes, you know everyone it was getting to the point 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:47.360 where everyone had a podcast, so I had it too. 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.960 To the most you know, I mean you've been You've 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:56.240 been around sort of og started a few companies. You're 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:59.160 part of this mafia, this mob called PayPal. 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:02.560 Yes, although I try, you know, everyone likes the mafia 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:04.480 kind of thing of it. We didn't do anything criminal. 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:05.440 It's PayPal network. 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:07.240 Well, I'll get to I want to get to you know, 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:09.880 do you guys obviously embrace that a little bit. Yes, 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:12.120 and you know, we'll also talk about you know, it's 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:15.000 kind of broken apart a little bit, the old the 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:22.600 pal version of the mafia started this company LinkedIn. Yeah, 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.679 and you're currently though not maybe for long. We'll talk 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:29.000 about that on the Microsoft board. And you've got a 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:32.319 number of AI companies that you've started up, and you 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:35.679 also have invested seems like everywhere in the AI space, 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:36.240 and you're doing. 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:37.160 A lot of angel investing. 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:40.440 So all of that and you haven't even turned sixty 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.440 years old coming up, but not quite. 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:44.600 It's not quite. 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:46.920 But I really wanted to get you read to talk 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.919 about the AI in the broadest sense because we've looked 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:54.520 we're just everybody's ringing their hands, the doomers, the gloomers, 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:56.000 it's going to take our jobs. 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:57.480 The anxiety is boiling. 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:01.760 You're seating and representing polls and just anecdotal feelings. People 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:05.360 are angry about data centers. People are furious that their 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:09.600 kid who went to Stanford and got this unbelievable degree 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:13.200 is not getting as many interviews as mom and dad 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:16.280 expected their perfect child to get. 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:19.080 But you have a different take on all this. 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:20.720 You're a little bit more optimistic about this. 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:24.240 So, I mean, first you've got to acknowledge people are 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:27.680 in pain having difficulties, right, I mean, and yes, there's 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:31.520 difficulties with entry level jobs. And if you listen to 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:33.320 the press, including by the way, a bunch of the 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.760 AI people who make, you know, foolish statements like white 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:40.720 collar blood bath and other kinds of things, they go, well, 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:42.720 it's AI's fault. And it's like, actually, if you actually 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:45.360 look at it thus far, it's not AI's fault. Doesn't 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:47.400 mean there won't be an impact from AI and all 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:50.160 this stuff and entry level jobs, but the pain that's 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:55.040 being felt right now is overhiring from covid is tariffs, 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:58.120 you know, screwing our economy and business planning, and when 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:02.320 and when all of that kind of stuff happens, businesses go, 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:05.120 I'm gonna do no hiring until I figure out what's 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:05.840 going on. Right. 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:08.800 So you're saying some of those big headlines that we 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:13.720 saw box and others that somehow suggested or at least 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:16.240 added in the press release maybe a number of factors, 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:21.480 including AI, and then the mainstream press runs with AI overhyped. 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.480 Yeah, well overhyped, but it's a natural reason for a 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:27.960 CEO to say that, because if I was like, oh 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:32.359 I overhired and I mismanaged, it's my fault. No, No, 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:36.720 I'm strong. I'm taking advantage of AI. AI is replacing jobs. 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.200 I am just being a really good CEO and and 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:46.400 and manager of my shareholder capital, which like like CEOs 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.000 are smart people. Pick reach you one you want dorowy 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:50.840 or Dori B. It's like, oh, take door B, thank 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:51.440 you very much. 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:54.120 So what do you make then, of the college graduate 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.760 and the unemployment rates that legitimately, at least numerically statistically, 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:00.440 what's the causation of that? What would you what's the 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:03.320 factor that how would you factor AI in that respect? Well, 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:05.120 what do you think, more broadly is the reason that 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:06.280 those numbers are higher? 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.480 Well, I think what is factually case is that a 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:13.120 wide range of businesses are like, we don't know if 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:16.200 we should be hiring new entry level people right now. 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:19.440 Some of it's like, well, we're doing layoffs because we 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:23.000 hired too many people during the pandemic and and and 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:25.320 then did this whole remote work thing which is not 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:29.760 really working out and refactoring it, and da da da, 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:34.360 and then there is oh and uh, and now we've 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:37.440 got trade war going on with global tariffs, which are 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:41.200 increasing cost to consumers, cost to businesses, costa and so 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:46.560 like like, and we got volatility central like, hey, it's July. 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:49.320 We're starting a new war, right like you know da. 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:53.920 So it's like like in all those cases, what businesses do. 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:56.160 The very first thing I do is let's not encour 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:59.120 any new expenses. It's let's not hire any new people 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.640 except the very clear people we need entry levels are 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:04.840 usually like, oh, these are people we need five years 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.200 from now. Well, we don't know we need five years now, 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:09.200 so let's not do that. It's also let's not do 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:12.760 a new lease. Let's not like it's like, let's let's 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:18.120 just chill. So that's the primary driving actual factor. Now 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:19.680 that being said, And by the way, there are a 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:24.240 few places which are AI related, like for example, the 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:27.599 metal layoffs are we need to free up costs for 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:30.400 spending on compute and so we're gonna do So it's 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.880 not that there's zero, it's just that the broad brush 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:38.600 you know kind of college grad is not actually in 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:42.719 fact yet, Like if it's a percentage from AI, it's 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:46.400 like five, it's not you know, it's not thirty or fifty. 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:49.080 So you talk about I mean some that have used 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.880 some pretty aggressive language about a white color blood bath, 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:54.960 but I mean you And I don't know if Dario 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:57.200 said that or not, but I mean it was specifically 0:05:57.320 --> 0:05:59.320 not surprising on the basis of the question I'll ask, 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:03.159 which is obviously he's because of his emphasis and he 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:05.839 put on numeric about fifty percent of why collar jobs 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.320 be eliminated. At least knew why collar jobs in the 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:12.359 next well five years, less than five years by twenty thirty. Again, 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:15.000 hyperbole from your personspective and your guys. You know you're 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:17.360 a fan of Dariayes. I'm a huge fan of Darios. 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:21.400 And look, Daria frugally gets criticized that he's doing it 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.919 for like kind of promoting his own technology, and this 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:27.320 is how important my technology is. There. No, Daria is 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:30.279 very principled, right, He's like, look, I think that there's 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:34.719 a real worry here and it's not on like society 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.680 should be ready. I'm trying to help society figure out 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:44.719 getting ready. So I appreciate Dario's principle, his motivation, et cetera. Now, 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:46.720 after he said that, I called Daria and I said, 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:50.279 look what you said is not heard the way you 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:55.200 think it's heard, right, because what people here is, well, 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:56.919 if that's going to create a huge blood bath and 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:59.320 that's the outcome, why are you building AI so fast? 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:01.440 Why are you doing all the stuff? Right? Is it 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:04.000 just to make yourself rich? Right? Because what they hear 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:06.960 is they hear the Hey, everyone, I have this really 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:10.520 great technology that's going to like ruin half of your 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:14.600 lives and good for me and sucks to be you. Right, 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.520 that's what they hear. That's not what you meant to say, 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:21.120 but that's what they hear. And so and so I 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:23.640 was like, look, I think the I said, Daria, the 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:26.120 better thing to say is we're going to have a 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:28.840 lot of job transition, and there's a lot of uncertainty 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.160 of what's going on, and it could have a really quick, 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:34.200 massive impact and we should be figuring out what to 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:36.880 do on it, right, right? And is that so? 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:38.480 I mean, you've talked about it in the terms of 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:42.200 a cognitive industrial revolution, and you talked about not being 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:47.000 poland rather be England take advantage of this, and and 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:48.960 that's and you've done that in the context of making 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.480 the case that we, you know, we should be accelerists, 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:53.920 though probably with the notion of a steer. 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:56.560 Yes, so you're not naive sometimes you slow down on 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:57.320 the curve and. 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:00.960 Slow down on the curve. But vehemently opposed to this 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:04.600 sort of precautionary principle framework. This notion of this is 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:06.760 you know, we've just got to put a damn pause 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:07.720 on this. 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:11.360 Yes, So so let's start with the pause because it's simple, 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:13.720 which is, say you issue a call for a pause, 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:16.040 and you have two groups of people, the group of 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.080 people who pause and the group of people who don't pause. 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:20.160 The group people pause and go, oh, I hear you. 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.040 The humanist stuff really matters and I care, so all pause, 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:25.360 and then the people go I don't give a shit 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.240 and they keep going. So then what kind of AI 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:33.439 is built? Right? Not good? It actually has a negative impact. Right. 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:35.760 That's the reason why I'm vehemently opposed to like this 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:37.719 kind of like pause and kind of things, and say, well, 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:39.640 what if we can get everyone to pause, Like, well, 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.200 what's your plan to get everyone to pause? Including China? 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:45.760 And everyone? Look like, is this that all realistic? So 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:49.840 my strategy tends to be, how do we keep like 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:52.440 you want the good guys to win? E g. The 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:56.320 things that are pro like humanist human you know, like 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:58.880 you know, the Pope's awesome and cyclical, like you know, 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.840 kind of like like keeping human beings at the center, 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.239 keeping a notion of what is a positive to society. 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:07.640 By the way positive societies over years. That doesn't mean 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.480 that there won't be massive transformation, things that will be 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.080 painful and difficult to get through, but like having a 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.320 this is how society is better with this as where 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:16.880 we're going. 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:19.400 So when people hear that, I mean the good guys, 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.200 I mean tech is getting slaughtered in the context of 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:25.800 public opinion. People just don't trust anybody. The whole issue 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.720 of truth and trust, obviously it has been accelerated social media, 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:32.760 but now obviously with AI deep fake this deep fake 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:35.600 that voice and we can get to even your own 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:39.040 interesting avatar in that space. But this notion of trust 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:41.920 and you know, someone may be listening to go okay, yeah, 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:44.120 read this is easy for you to say, you know, 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:48.000 sitting on the Microsoft board and obviously investing in all 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:50.319 these places. You got two of your own AI companies, 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:54.079 you know, come on, man, So. 0:09:55.760 --> 0:10:00.640 I am not of the view that like frequently what 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:05.120 it is is like just trust us, right, like like 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:06.880 like you know, it's like, look, we're in a very 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:12.080 low trust environment overall, right, low trust of almost every institution, 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:17.640 even mixed trust of historically great trust institution doctors and 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.160 so on. So it's like, so there's an overall thing, 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.160 so they just trust us. But then you have to 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:25.720 say is like, okay, well you have to prove my 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.319 trust before you do anything. Well, that doesn't really work, 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:30.720 and it doesn't work in any of these places, right, 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:34.280 So the notion is to say, well, do the things 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:37.360 that ultimately are building trust over time, and then when 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:42.520 people really investigate, like, ah, you're doing something that's fairly trustworthy. So, 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:44.719 like we're talking about Dario, one of the things that 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.800 Dario did is it said, Okay, we're going to build 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:52.760 AI with a kind of a constitution. I actually don't 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:55.240 think they should have used that word, but like you know, 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:57.120 it could be a it could be a set of 0:10:57.200 --> 0:10:59.600 principles like you know whatever, you know. 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:01.959 What if fends you have a constitution, sir. 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:04.920 Well, I, for one, I am a huge believer in 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.440 the American constitution, right it is our I'm. 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:10.600 A little old school like you. I appreciate that we'll 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:11.840 get to that a little bit later. 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.320 Look that that is our religion is the constitution, right, 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.200 so like we stay with that. And it's a little 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:21.240 bit of saying, oh, implying that this is a constitution 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.800 is not really like a constitution is a sacred document 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:31.839 for me, so and so and so. The but here's 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:36.000 here's how we're gonna build trust is here is the 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.439 document that is central to all of our training of 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:43.080 our eyes. So you can read it, you can come 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:46.160 and on to us, you can suggest changes, you can 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:49.480 understand where we're going, what we're trying to do. That's 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:51.520 the kind of thing that I think you know needs 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:55.200 to be there. Transparency. Yes, that's that's the beginning, and. 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:57.240 That's along the lines. I mean, you and I've had 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:00.120 these conversations over the years. In California's regular tour, a 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:02.920 framework SP fifty three which we advanced was around this 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:06.520 issue of transparency exactly for frontier models, these large language models. 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:07.920 What about this? 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:10.360 You know, I think from your perspective, it'd be interesting 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.560 to hear your perspective about some of those contours. I Mean, 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:16.120 we talk about Dario as the you know, the good 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:18.920 guy and is in for a lot of folks that's 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:22.440 through purely political lens because of some of the issues 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.080 he had with p Hexic and the Department of War 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:27.520 issues around Mythos, which I'm interested in your take on 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:30.040 Mythos and the fact that he pulled that back what 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:33.520 that means or what that suggests. But it also has 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:36.640 the origin story that played out very publicly with Sam Altman, 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:40.400 with Elon Musk. All those origin stories of which you 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.520 had a front seat, sir, front. 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.680 Seat, front seat, and participation on someone. 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.640 An actual board seat is relasd to open AI exactly. 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:57.840 So look, most of the people creating AI, you know, 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:04.079 are like kind of unique human beings. Yes, so you know, 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.320 and part of it because by the way, geniuses frequently 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:12.880 are right and so and usually you know, with folks 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.560 who like it's pretty easy to attack anybody. I mean, 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.080 you've had the experience. I've had the experience of it's 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:22.439 like an attack by a negative person who is willing 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.920 to invent shit or build on what is a small 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:29.079 thing to make it into a huge thing. Is one 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:33.960 of the things that kind of flows its Now I 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:38.280 have the you know, the fortune of knowing all of 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:40.600 the head like every head of all these labs and 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:42.439 so I have a pretty good sense of what their 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:44.640 actual moral characters are and what the things are. And 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:47.800 many of them are good human beings. That doesn't mean 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:49.839 they're perfect, right, but they're good. 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:51.679 But it's a nice I mean, I want to pause 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:54.560 on that because I mean, objectively from your perspective, many 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:57.240 are good human beings. Yes, because they've been I mean, 0:13:57.240 --> 0:13:59.960 these guys really have been vilified across the spectrum. Yes, 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:04.040 and you know, and perhaps more so even today with 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:06.840 the first trillion air being minted, et cetera, and all 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:08.080 that issue which. 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:09.839 I wanted on that I didn't say, all we're good 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:13.720 human We'll get to specifically to that human being. 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:16.440 But this notion that most are good human beings, but 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:18.959 they're also trapped by incentives, right, I mean, we're all 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:22.280 creatures of incentives. In this notion of the incentive, as 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:25.600 you suggest to accelerate at peril. If it's not us, 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.240 it will be someone else once you rather the American 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:31.360 stack in the context of what Jensen talks about in Nvidia, 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:34.120 this notion of the American stack with the American values 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:37.920 to the extent possible. But what I mean those incentives 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.600 aren't necessarily even good people for good behavior. 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:47.080 Yeah, so in any incentive system, you will get some 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:49.440 good effects on it and some bad effects. No incentive 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:54.080 system is only good effects, right right. So so you know, 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:56.480 for example, you have an incentive system to try to 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:59.400 make more money, Well you try it, like it creates 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:01.280 jobs and par activity, but you also do a whole 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:03.840 bunch of other things. Like so it's a blend, right, 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:07.600 and you get people, you know, uh, selling cigarettes and 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:12.000 other kinds of things. So and so I think the 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:14.520 incentive system. What you have to do is say, how 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.480 do we tune the incentive system so that the major 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:21.560 incentives mostly align with good outcomes. Now, part of the 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.240 reason why is you already noted the England versus Poland 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:29.240 and the industrial revolution. If we are the society that 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:33.640 kind of has called it the primary pole position, and 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:37.560 how AI does this next industrial revolution which I think 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:40.560 is going to be bigger than the previous industrial revolution? 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:43.360 And where this then we can sort out how the 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:45.760 economics society works. Like if you say, well we have 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:48.800 the massive economic benefit it careers to our society, and like, 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:51.960 well it's only these seven companies, Well we're in a society. 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.120 We can broaden that out. Something you say, well, any 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:59.840 any you know company that has you know, profitability above 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:03.480 per employee now has an extra tax that's used to 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:06.400 pay for all the rest society. And if you own 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.840 that industry, you can do that. If you don't own 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.960 that industry, It's a little bit like when people you know, say, hey, 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:15.520 I hate these social networks. And by the way, there's 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.480 some real social network issues. Although I always, to my 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:20.400 own defense, you're LinkedIn one. 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:23.000 Of the few, if not the only, yes, social network 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:25.360 that actually had no better I mean right, yeah, I 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:27.520 mean kids are doing fine on LinkedIn. 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:31.120 Yes they're on that, Yes, exactly, like LinkedIn works just fine. 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:33.760 So it's doable. But if you said, hey, we ban 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.560 social works, even ignoring a LinkedIn, questions like, what would 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.080 you want it to be only Chinese social networks? No, no, 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.600 you'd rather have the social networks here and have our 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.320 ability to shape them. Now, of course we need to, 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.120 there's the political melee around it and all the rest, 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:51.440 but you want it to be a US property that 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:53.720 you're shaping. And the same thing with AI, And that's 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.360 part of the reason I'm an accelerationist. It's like one 0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:57.840 of the things I was saying a couple of years ago, 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.680 is we want AI to be American intelligence. Right, So 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:04.439 it's like like it matters, right, And and that doesn't 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:08.120 mean at any cost. Nothing is at any cost, right, 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:10.840 Like if you said, well, like it would it would 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:16.959 destroy an entire generation of children. That's a horrific Like 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:19.960 can we avoid that and still be acceleration at ansorus? 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.359 I think yes, But it's like, Okay, what are the 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:24.040 things we do in order to do that? Now? I 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:25.840 do want to wrap back to one of the things before, 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:27.879 because I think this is very important given you know, 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:31.800 we've seen you know, uh, you know, American college students going, 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:35.359 I've I hate AI, right booing, Ye have you given 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:37.640 a did you do a commencement? You know, probably smart 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:41.840 enough not to do it this year? It needs that, yes, well, 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:44.399 because you're showing up to try to offer something to 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:49.320 help them, right, Like the usual protest and commandment speech 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:53.440 is sleeping you asleep? But what do you mean when 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:55.600 do you make it? But it reinforces the anxiety? 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:59.000 Yes, no, no, and I get it highly educated people 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:00.119 that are played by the rule. 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:04.200 Yes, and I feel I look, I understand, I feel 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:08.199 the pain. Right. So, but the question is, and this 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:12.520 is why I think it's so important is Look, it 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:17.520 is completely legitimate for college graduates to be going, you know, hey, 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:21.439 the older generations, the boomers, ceter you really fucked it 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:23.320 over for us. We got all this shit going on 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:27.239 and this is on your watch and you suck. I 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:31.600 get it, and I think it's a legitimate gripe, right, Like, 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:35.440 but in crisis, this is the thing I really want 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:38.640 the kids to hear, you know, the college kids. Crisis 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.639 is opportunity. And by the way, you can be the 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:45.720 AI generation. You should be using it. You should be going, hey, 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:49.720 company X, you need people to help you, like AI 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:52.000 aify your company. I can be the person doing it. 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:55.000 You shouldn't be trying n opt out. It's a disaster 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:58.399 for you, right, And I'm saying it for them. Look, 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:02.359 I don't have any steak in. Like the entire current 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:05.160 graduating class could all say we refuse to use AI. 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:09.000 It makes no difference to me, but it will be 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:12.520 terrible for their lives. Right. And so it's like, look, 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:16.199 embrace and figure out how to make it useful to 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:19.080 you and then have that help amplify your career and 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:19.639 life path. 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.640 And you continue to make that point it's about amplification, 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:27.400 it's about having a copilot. But this notion back to turbulence, 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:30.840 this idea that the transition, So talk about the transition 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:36.240 the context. Look, if Dario's over stating the short term, 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:39.840 are we understating the long term or is it just 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:44.200 you know, modest fits and starts, a scale, scope speed? 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:47.600 Where are you and all that? 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:50.639 How do you calibrate all that if you're policy maker 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:53.920 sitting in this seat, how do you begin to anticipate 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:57.639 where that stress, where that friction, where the real turbulence 0:19:57.680 --> 0:19:58.200 is going to come. 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:00.600 Well, some of what I thought you guys did that 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:03.800 was really smart with SB fifty three was get data, 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.320 start monitoring, start asking questions, like because it's like, Okay, 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:11.760 what's really happening here? Not Oh I watched her like 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:15.159 like some journalist wrote a story about one case, you know, 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:17.359 blah blah blah blah. Yeah, that's not the way to 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:20.440 do it. That's that's like like the dumbling olk. Oh 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:23.560 my god, we should restrict airplane travel because it's unsafe. 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:26.480 It's like no, no, no, it's the drive to the airport 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:33.120 that's unsafe. The plane is actually so much safer, right 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:35.879 per mile per minute. Everything else is like no, the 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:39.880 plane is much better. So it's like making policy decisions 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:42.399 based on data, and we should be getting the actual data, 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:46.040 not the hysteric kind of responses and start there is 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:49.560 actually in fact with important. Now that being said, you know, 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:54.440 as a rough template, we want to be thinking of, 0:20:54.640 --> 0:21:00.560 okay AI is this transformative tsunami that's coming and within 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:05.439 a small number of years jobs there will be a 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:09.280 large number of jobs that will be completely transformed. Some 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:11.960 of those jobs will be they're just all done by AI. 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:15.440 Some of them will now be clerical jobs. What kind 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:15.919 of jobs? 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.560 See, people have their theories of this, and of course anthropic, 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:20.600 but it's out literally the pie chart, yes, of what 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:23.080 kind of jobs are most likely to be impacted? 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:26.720 What's your theory of that case? So those pie charts 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:30.440 are usually limited in that they say, if the tasks 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:33.560 of doing the jobs are only the ones today and 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:36.159 that there aren't new tasks, this is what looks like 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:40.280 there will be new tasks. Now that being said, For example, 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:43.920 I think that there's a relatively small n number of 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:48.080 years before a customer service person, a customer calling customer 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:50.040 service says please put the A on. It's a lot 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:54.200 more helpful, right, because you have a human being trying 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:57.200 to follow a robotic script by looking at the screens 0:21:57.280 --> 0:21:59.119 or yeah, it's going to do that so much better, 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:02.679 just like there's rules for human beings, but they're like 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:05.160 looking at what's going on with the pattern of AIS 0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:09.440 and trying to reimagine that's not the bulk customer service jobs. 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:12.360 So like that's one. I think there's a lot of 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:16.800 like there's a whole classes of sales jobs that I 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:19.960 think will be much more AI. And you begin to 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:23.000 get to this weird sci fi story where the AI salesperson, 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:28.240 the sales agent calls the company AI agent to listen 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:31.440 to the AI sales agent, and there's a whole thing 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:34.520 that kind of navigates through. It's a whole weird, weird 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:37.639 universe that will happen. That will happen, Yeah, en years 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:44.280 and not three, maybe ten, like not twenty, right, right, 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:48.560 and so and so those will be like kind of 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:51.159 swaths of jobs. But here's the thing, and it's that 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:55.440 new task thing that was mentioning earlier, which is basically 0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:58.960 there will no longer be there were very few human 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:01.040 jobs that are just humans by themselves. We will all 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:04.119 have teams of agents that are working with us and 0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:06.440 doing But actually, in fact, what you can see from 0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:09.240 the pattern of already looking at it is you actually 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:15.080 get to some pretty incredible increases in performance where the 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:17.880 human brings in the things that the AI don't have. 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:20.080 And look, one of the questions is will the ais 0:23:20.520 --> 0:23:22.440 not have those for a long time? Will they get 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:26.240 them quickly? We don't know it's all coming right. My 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:30.399 bet would be we're very adaptive like this whole like 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:34.480 human beings will be replaced and we'll have our cognitive faculties. 0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:36.919 Goes all the way back to the printing press and writing. 0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:40.640 Like I actually think there's areas of where we make 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:42.479 good judgment, Like people say, oh my god, look at 0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:46.040 look at cloud code, like there's no need for engineers anymore. 0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:48.760 We'll actually talk to a whole bunch of people who 0:23:48.920 --> 0:23:51.879 use cloud code. And I've used it myself intensively, and 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:55.160 I've I've used codex and open ai, and I've used 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:58.400 Microsoft Copilot. And by the way, some of it is 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:03.040 just amazing, like amazing, Like if you had told me, 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:05.880 like you would asked me even like say five eight 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:09.000 years ago, would I be seeing this? I said, no, no, no, no, 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:10.919 that's not like yet They're like, yes, here it is. 0:24:10.960 --> 0:24:16.680 That's amazing. On the other hand, it breaks on weird shit, right, 0:24:16.760 --> 0:24:20.119 And so part of the human thing is like orchestration. 0:24:20.280 --> 0:24:23.200 It's like, okay, like, for example, how how does coding 0:24:23.240 --> 0:24:25.520 work at open AI. Well, they have a big screen 0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:28.560 and they have multiple agents working, and they're like, oh, 0:24:28.640 --> 0:24:31.439 oh that one's stuck. We got to get that one unstuck, right, 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:35.480 da okay this, and and it makes them hugely more productive. 0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:38.640 Now if you thought, well, it makes them huge alial productive. 0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:40.520 They're just doing all the work. We don't need anyone 0:24:40.560 --> 0:24:42.720 else doing all the work. It's like, look, there's infinite work. 0:24:43.240 --> 0:24:46.639 It's like, now maybe there will be say, for example, 0:24:46.680 --> 0:24:51.040 tech companies may more naturally be at you know, call 0:24:51.080 --> 0:24:53.840 it fifty percent of the current engineering crew. That doesn't 0:24:53.880 --> 0:24:56.680 mean that those engineers. It's like other engineering firms start 0:24:57.040 --> 0:25:00.640 more competitors, etcetera, etcetera. It's just the producttivity of how 0:25:00.680 --> 0:25:05.360 you operate. It's like the humans aren't replaced in all 0:25:05.400 --> 0:25:09.919 cases by AI. They're replaced by humans using AI, and 0:25:09.960 --> 0:25:11.439 so you want to be the humans using AI. And 0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:12.720 then this gets back to I think this is a 0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:15.720 central point, is like, well, what's the thing you should 0:25:15.760 --> 0:25:18.479 be thinking about? Is one is monitoring, and then the 0:25:18.520 --> 0:25:21.320 other one is how do we help AI be part 0:25:21.359 --> 0:25:24.880 of the solution. Because the thing that's driving it at 0:25:24.920 --> 0:25:29.320 scale and speed is AI. We need solutions that work 0:25:29.359 --> 0:25:35.320 on the same capability set. So, for example, okay, how 0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:38.520 do I help AI? How do I have AI helping 0:25:38.520 --> 0:25:43.040 people make job transitions? I want to be seeing that, right, 0:25:43.080 --> 0:25:45.080 So you're like, one of the things you could do 0:25:45.359 --> 0:25:47.480 right here at the mansion is you could say, hey, great, 0:25:47.880 --> 0:25:52.040 you know, California is the center of the AI revolution 0:25:52.240 --> 0:25:54.200 in the world. It's part of the reason why fifty 0:25:54.240 --> 0:25:56.840 three mattered. Hey, I want you guys to all come 0:25:56.840 --> 0:26:00.000 by and tell me about how AI could be useful 0:26:00.520 --> 0:26:03.600 in helping people all ranges. I want to hear about 0:26:03.600 --> 0:26:08.359 blue collar, white collar, multiple industries. How does that help 0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:14.320 those people you know, find the right work, do the 0:26:14.400 --> 0:26:18.119 right work, you know, have pride in their work. I 0:26:18.320 --> 0:26:20.439 just we're going to have a we're gonna have a 0:26:20.480 --> 0:26:22.280 day here in the mansion. You're going to come talk 0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:25.119 to us about it because I want to hear you 0:26:25.200 --> 0:26:29.760 thinking about it, right Because by the way, ultimately if 0:26:29.800 --> 0:26:32.040 you're not delivering on this, then I have to apply 0:26:32.119 --> 0:26:37.439 more pressure because, like, my responsibility is to the citizens 0:26:37.520 --> 0:26:42.119 of the state. And look, I'm very happy that we 0:26:42.240 --> 0:26:46.120 have the AI revolution and the economics flowing in from 0:26:46.160 --> 0:26:49.159 that and all the rest. But I care about all 0:26:49.200 --> 0:26:53.119 my citizens, So tell me what you can do for them. Yeah. 0:26:53.160 --> 0:26:56.320 Interesting, I mean there's notion of using AI the thing 0:26:56.560 --> 0:27:00.560 that has displaced that worker, to help find and place 0:27:00.720 --> 0:27:03.760 that worker in a new opportunity, a new career that's 0:27:03.760 --> 0:27:06.240 not quote unquote just training per se and the old 0:27:06.560 --> 0:27:09.960 sort of Black and White movie community college construct. 0:27:10.080 --> 0:27:11.639 Yes, but I want to if I could, I want to. 0:27:11.680 --> 0:27:12.320 I want to get back. 0:27:12.359 --> 0:27:15.639 There's so many areas on computing issues, limited limiting issues 0:27:15.760 --> 0:27:17.960 in that space, and what's going on with data centers, 0:27:17.960 --> 0:27:20.040 et cetera, and where we are in terms of the 0:27:20.080 --> 0:27:21.040 competitive landscape. 0:27:21.040 --> 0:27:24.360 But you, I was I didn't know this. 0:27:25.280 --> 0:27:28.840 You you were at Stanford back in the talk about 0:27:28.880 --> 0:27:30.920 Black and White movie. Wasn't that It wasn't just a 0:27:30.960 --> 0:27:33.520 couple of years ago, but way back when, and you 0:27:33.600 --> 0:27:36.200 were studying what was simplistic solutions? 0:27:36.240 --> 0:27:39.359 What the hell is this symbolic system? Yeah, what the 0:27:39.359 --> 0:27:41.600 hell is this? Well, it's artificial intelligence. 0:27:42.160 --> 0:27:45.480 So so I was part of you as an undergraduate 0:27:45.520 --> 0:27:47.679 and an AI degree. You had an AI degree, Yes, 0:27:47.800 --> 0:27:50.600 when no one had ever heard of this nonsense, Well 0:27:50.600 --> 0:27:52.840 not no one, when most of folks ever. 0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:53.080 Heard of it. 0:27:53.160 --> 0:27:56.199 Yes, even though we started realizing we all had it 0:27:56.240 --> 0:27:58.680 and we've all been using it for decades. But there's 0:27:58.720 --> 0:28:02.040 notion of jen ai the thing that we kind of conflained. 0:28:02.040 --> 0:28:02.760 That was what was new. 0:28:02.880 --> 0:28:04.919 Yes, and so you so it was it just a 0:28:05.000 --> 0:28:07.440 natural inkland? I mean, did you see the future then? 0:28:07.480 --> 0:28:09.440 I mean, was it just a major that started to 0:28:09.440 --> 0:28:11.399 present itself? No one else was in the class, and 0:28:11.440 --> 0:28:12.080 you figure. 0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:14.399 It out, get in, get an a in this one. 0:28:14.800 --> 0:28:20.320 The No, it was so what people assume people in 0:28:20.359 --> 0:28:22.639 my kind of role, and many many people in my 0:28:22.680 --> 0:28:25.080 kind of role are fascinated by technology. I'm not. I'm 0:28:25.080 --> 0:28:28.199 fascinated by human beings, okay, right, And so what I 0:28:28.240 --> 0:28:31.320 was interested in was human thought and human language, and 0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:33.520 so how do we understand ourselves, how do we insenter 0:28:33.520 --> 0:28:35.720 each other, how do we communicate? How do we get 0:28:35.720 --> 0:28:38.800 to a better understanding talking to each other? Etcetera, etcetera. 0:28:38.920 --> 0:28:41.480 And that was what most interested me, And so like 0:28:41.560 --> 0:28:44.560 I looked at you know, do I do anthropology or psychology? 0:28:44.640 --> 0:28:46.520 Like I was looking at the whole range. But I 0:28:46.560 --> 0:28:51.640 was like, what's the thing that in doing this I 0:28:51.640 --> 0:28:55.200 could actually make the most interesting things. I've always had 0:28:55.240 --> 0:28:58.760 a belief that we evolve ourselves through technology, like this 0:28:58.800 --> 0:29:00.600 is a you know, these glasses, these are a piece 0:29:00.640 --> 0:29:04.400 of technology, this podcast, and that's actually how we evolve 0:29:04.480 --> 0:29:06.760 our state as human beings and who we are and 0:29:06.800 --> 0:29:08.960 so on. Right, And so I was like, Okay, this 0:29:09.160 --> 0:29:12.760 AI thing, that's interesting, right, so I'll go do that, 0:29:13.080 --> 0:29:15.680 and I did it some Olcays is a multidisciplinary major, 0:29:15.720 --> 0:29:20.120 so it included psychology, included linguistics, included philosophy, so you know, 0:29:20.200 --> 0:29:21.680 did all of that as a part of it. And 0:29:21.760 --> 0:29:24.280 he went to Oxford and got it. Philosophies, yes, because 0:29:24.360 --> 0:29:27.160 well what I concluded at Stanford was none of us 0:29:27.240 --> 0:29:29.920 understood what thinking I'm speaking was, right, So here we 0:29:29.960 --> 0:29:31.760 are trying to build AI and we have no sense 0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:34.880 of what that is. Maybe philosophers did. Went to Oxford 0:29:34.920 --> 0:29:36.280 included philosophers didn't. 0:29:36.080 --> 0:29:38.160 Either, And so give me, I mean, this is what 0:29:38.240 --> 0:29:39.800 year where you're studying this stuff? 0:29:40.160 --> 0:29:44.880 Roughly nineteen eighty five, to nineteen ninety three ninety three 0:29:44.960 --> 0:29:47.280 in that both Oxford and the and so AI as 0:29:47.280 --> 0:29:48.160 we know it today. 0:29:48.160 --> 0:29:49.880 In the context of the vernacular of this sort of 0:29:49.880 --> 0:29:52.560 notion of gen ai et cetera, I mean, the origin story, 0:29:52.840 --> 0:29:55.120 they tend to lazily go back. It's sort of like 0:29:55.120 --> 0:29:57.880 the beginning of biotech maybe seventy nine with genen tech 0:29:57.960 --> 0:30:00.640 or something. There's a lazy punitrard that. But is that 0:30:00.680 --> 0:30:04.600 punitry accurate to suggest somehow in the mind's deep minds 0:30:04.600 --> 0:30:07.680 of Google that sort of the origin stories started to 0:30:07.720 --> 0:30:13.680 take shape early twenty thirteen fourteen, range, How would you 0:30:13.680 --> 0:30:17.960 describe what we are addressing or dealing with today in 0:30:18.000 --> 0:30:20.320 the context of that origin story? Where did it really 0:30:20.360 --> 0:30:23.480 begin at a scale that we're now more accustomed to. 0:30:23.560 --> 0:30:27.240 Well, so, by the way, like many technological revolutions, including 0:30:27.320 --> 0:30:31.960 modern ones, there have been multiple like oh, in five 0:30:32.080 --> 0:30:36.560 years we'll be having AI and invent new science, and 0:30:36.600 --> 0:30:38.920 that goes all the way back to the eighties, goes 0:30:38.960 --> 0:30:42.080 back to the eightiesies. Yeah, so here we are. We're 0:30:42.080 --> 0:30:46.320 there because what happens is some achievement happens and then 0:30:46.440 --> 0:30:50.360 people go aha, So like we beat human grand master 0:30:50.360 --> 0:30:53.280 at chess. Yeah, that was the hard problem. And now 0:30:53.400 --> 0:30:56.440 it'll be inventing physics and you're like not so much 0:30:58.280 --> 0:31:00.880 and so like cycling through it. And that was actually 0:31:00.960 --> 0:31:02.880 part of my conclusion in Stanford was like, no, none 0:31:02.920 --> 0:31:06.840 of these technologies, none of these current technolical approaches will work. 0:31:07.920 --> 0:31:09.960 So what's the thing that got me back in AI 0:31:10.800 --> 0:31:15.280 was a three hour meeting with demsisabas Uh, the CEO 0:31:15.360 --> 0:31:19.400 and co founder of deep Mind. And what I realized 0:31:19.440 --> 0:31:21.960 that he had that he had like he is the 0:31:22.120 --> 0:31:24.680 I think the the he and his co founder is 0:31:24.720 --> 0:31:26.040 the original kickoff. 0:31:25.680 --> 0:31:28.080 Of the deep And it's not I mean again, it's 0:31:28.080 --> 0:31:31.840 not Microsoft, it's not Anthropical AI, it's not SpaceX as well. 0:31:31.840 --> 0:31:33.880 I mean it's that's the I mean, if you really 0:31:33.880 --> 0:31:36.920 want to start to understand in luck and understanding. 0:31:36.480 --> 0:31:41.560 And what Demis realized was we have scale compute, and 0:31:41.640 --> 0:31:44.800 with scale compute we can create scale intelligence. Now, his 0:31:44.920 --> 0:31:47.760 original idea has been less of the important thing, which 0:31:47.800 --> 0:31:50.920 is self play. So it had pong and go and 0:31:51.040 --> 0:31:53.800 it plays against each other. But the answer was we 0:31:53.840 --> 0:31:59.680 can apply a lot of compute to evolve a competent machine, 0:31:59.800 --> 0:32:03.760 a with cognitive capabilities and I was like, you're right. 0:32:04.320 --> 0:32:06.520 We now have scale compute and what's more, we have 0:32:06.560 --> 0:32:09.840 scale data and we have scale engagement, you know, through 0:32:09.960 --> 0:32:15.120 internet and mobile. The revolution, a revolution, a massive revolution 0:32:15.240 --> 0:32:19.040 is here now. Did I know when I walked out 0:32:19.040 --> 0:32:22.600 of that meeting, you know, and at you know, King's 0:32:22.600 --> 0:32:25.840 Cross that I was like, Oh, actually it won't be 0:32:25.840 --> 0:32:28.960 the self play. It will actually be these these things 0:32:29.000 --> 0:32:34.760 called transformers, these large language models that read the trillion 0:32:34.760 --> 0:32:37.600 and a half words on the Internet and use that 0:32:37.640 --> 0:32:40.440 as a learning basis to create something. No, I didn't 0:32:40.480 --> 0:32:44.760 know that well, I didn't know is this is now 0:32:44.800 --> 0:32:48.080 a revolution? And so I was like, okay, how do 0:32:48.160 --> 0:32:53.040 I help? And you know, for me, I'm not adverse 0:32:53.080 --> 0:32:55.240 to doing stuff commercially. Obviously I've done a whole bunch 0:32:55.240 --> 0:32:57.640 of stuff commercially. But for me, I look across the 0:32:57.680 --> 0:33:00.280 whole spectrum. I go, Okay, what's the stuff that I 0:33:00.320 --> 0:33:02.520 should do as a founder, as investor, What's the stuff 0:33:02.520 --> 0:33:05.360 that I should do as a content provider and author? 0:33:05.600 --> 0:33:07.720 What's the stuff that I should do talking to you know, 0:33:07.720 --> 0:33:10.040 people who care about society like you and others? And 0:33:10.040 --> 0:33:13.000 what to do? Like, how do I go from you know, 0:33:13.120 --> 0:33:15.880 humanity society, industry. And that's the order of which I 0:33:15.920 --> 0:33:19.720 care about them, right, Humanity first, society second industry third 0:33:20.320 --> 0:33:23.840 industry can be very useful for society and humanity. But 0:33:23.960 --> 0:33:26.000 you like part of the like when we were talking 0:33:26.000 --> 0:33:28.600 about that earlier steering and shaping, well, we want to 0:33:28.600 --> 0:33:31.680 steer and shape industry to go. It should be on 0:33:31.760 --> 0:33:36.239 average massively positive for society over time, right. And if 0:33:36.280 --> 0:33:38.400 that's not, the director in it needs to be fixed 0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:43.480 right now over time, not this year necessarily right, right, 0:33:43.520 --> 0:33:47.040 there's always costs of transformation and all the rest now 0:33:48.080 --> 0:33:50.880 and so I went, that's the revolution we're in. And 0:33:50.920 --> 0:33:57.160 so for me, I think that's twenty thirteen or twenty fourteen, right, 0:33:57.200 --> 0:34:00.920 And it's and that's why when like Sam called me 0:34:00.920 --> 0:34:03.280 and said, hey, I'm thinking of pulling this thing together 0:34:03.320 --> 0:34:06.920 with you know, for AI for humanity, will you help, 0:34:07.000 --> 0:34:09.799 the answer is yes. It was one of the things 0:34:09.840 --> 0:34:12.879 where I had just gotten my partners at Greylock really 0:34:12.880 --> 0:34:15.279 focused on crypto, and I was like, oh, I'm gonna 0:34:15.280 --> 0:34:17.720 stop doing this crypto thing because this AI thing is coming. 0:34:17.719 --> 0:34:19.600 And they're like, what AI thing. I'm like, Oh, it's coming. 0:34:20.120 --> 0:34:22.920 And and actually, you know, I think you know, I 0:34:22.960 --> 0:34:27.040 think my partner is at Greylock were the first venture 0:34:27.120 --> 0:34:30.160 partnership that saw GBT four because I got Sam's permission, 0:34:30.160 --> 0:34:32.600 I was on the board of open AI to say, hey, 0:34:32.640 --> 0:34:35.600 come in and demo this and and and show this 0:34:35.640 --> 0:34:37.959 because there was there was a six month period where 0:34:38.320 --> 0:34:41.600 GBD four was not public because we're like, oh is 0:34:41.640 --> 0:34:44.439 it safe enough and all the rest, and you know, they 0:34:44.440 --> 0:34:46.239 were doing it. I was like, okay, look, I think 0:34:46.280 --> 0:34:48.160 it's safe enough. Is it okay to show the partnership? 0:34:48.160 --> 0:34:50.760 And Sam's like, yeah, yeah, this this since you're serving 0:34:50.840 --> 0:34:52.759 on a five one C three board of open AI 0:34:53.040 --> 0:34:55.680 trying to do this, this is the least we could do. Yes, 0:34:55.719 --> 0:34:57.799 you could go show them you know what's coming. 0:35:00.120 --> 0:35:03.440 Goal there's or there's some interesting I I and I 0:35:03.440 --> 0:35:05.320 don't you know, I don't want to get in a gossip, 0:35:05.320 --> 0:35:07.799 but I think it's interesting because it's instructive to a 0:35:07.800 --> 0:35:09.800 lot of people, and it's also I think connects a 0:35:09.800 --> 0:35:14.279 lot of your own personal relationships and dots. So you 0:35:14.280 --> 0:35:16.800 you know, you were notoriously, as we were alluding to earlier, 0:35:16.880 --> 0:35:20.200 part of the Payfoul mafia, and those are the brand 0:35:20.280 --> 0:35:23.600 names today and Elon Musk obviously, Peter Thiele, David Sachs, 0:35:23.680 --> 0:35:26.080 less of a brand name, but increasingly trying to be 0:35:26.120 --> 0:35:31.960 one in terms of association with the Trump administration. Musk 0:35:32.880 --> 0:35:38.799 allegedly and Larry Page, co founder of Google, had a 0:35:38.920 --> 0:35:44.560 conversation that, as at least Musk's telling goes, Musk was 0:35:44.600 --> 0:35:48.680 concerned that Larry wasn't taking this jen Ai seriously enough 0:35:48.680 --> 0:35:51.719 in terms of its downside risks, and decided to go 0:35:51.800 --> 0:35:56.120 off on his own, made the same contacts you made 0:35:56.160 --> 0:35:59.799 with Sam Altman and others, uh, and went down this 0:36:00.239 --> 0:36:03.160 path of a five oh one c three and tried 0:36:03.160 --> 0:36:04.280 to birth open ai. 0:36:05.360 --> 0:36:08.239 Is that reasonably accurate? That is reasonably accurate. I think 0:36:08.239 --> 0:36:11.360 it was a conversation. I think it was. You know, 0:36:11.480 --> 0:36:15.279 Larry was kind of saying, was you know, you know 0:36:15.560 --> 0:36:18.080 it's probably too simplistic, but you know, kind of articularly 0:36:18.080 --> 0:36:22.160 a transhumanist perspective to Elon that you know naturally freaks 0:36:22.160 --> 0:36:26.600 someone out because the rational response to that is that 0:36:27.000 --> 0:36:33.160 it's almost strange, right and so and so it got 0:36:33.280 --> 0:36:35.680 very concerned about it. Now, you know, in Elon's case 0:36:35.680 --> 0:36:39.440 in particular, it's the you know, Elon has the definition 0:36:39.520 --> 0:36:41.960 of a Messiah complex. So it's like, no, no, I have 0:36:42.000 --> 0:36:44.680 to be the one building AI, not anyone else. So yeah, 0:36:44.760 --> 0:36:46.640 there's the there's a little bit of the I'm worried 0:36:46.640 --> 0:36:48.640 about it generally, but it's also the I'm worried it's 0:36:48.680 --> 0:36:50.080 you not me. Uh. 0:36:50.320 --> 0:36:52.400 I think that's sort of proven itself a little bit, 0:36:52.960 --> 0:36:55.000 this turn of notion of going back. Even when you 0:36:55.040 --> 0:36:58.560 said the glasses, which is interesting technology I can see 0:36:58.600 --> 0:37:00.480 better if you've been aiding and a better and as 0:37:00.520 --> 0:37:04.240 a human that technology it's not just you know ones 0:37:04.239 --> 0:37:07.640 and zeros, yes, though you know now the now they're 0:37:07.640 --> 0:37:11.040 becoming one zero asth meta uh and others I think, 0:37:11.040 --> 0:37:13.400 and now Apple's coming out with their own version. But 0:37:13.640 --> 0:37:19.480 what this this notion of technology trends? I mean you 0:37:19.560 --> 0:37:24.320 reminded when what what what allegedly Larry said to Elon 0:37:24.480 --> 0:37:28.040 that freaked Elon out is what guys like Peter Teal 0:37:28.040 --> 0:37:30.120 couldn't even answer. You know, I think it was a 0:37:30.120 --> 0:37:34.360 seventeen second pause in an interview about you know, human 0:37:34.440 --> 0:37:37.680 beings and technology. But when you yeah, you sort of 0:37:37.680 --> 0:37:40.040 invited that in with the glasses, I mean, what what 0:37:40.200 --> 0:37:40.680 is all that? 0:37:40.840 --> 0:37:42.600 I mean for folks that may not be. 0:37:42.600 --> 0:37:44.719 Familiar with some of this, but maybe familiar with the 0:37:44.760 --> 0:37:48.120 anxiety that some of these conversations have induced. More broadly, 0:37:48.600 --> 0:37:50.839 what is the suggestion is this? Are we just all 0:37:50.880 --> 0:37:52.160 in a simulation or something? 0:37:52.360 --> 0:37:53.000 Is that the point? 0:37:53.360 --> 0:37:56.480 There's that kind of there's a cast of few of 0:37:56.480 --> 0:38:01.480 those conversations of them. Yes, It's like it's like like, actually, 0:38:03.520 --> 0:38:07.080 I was sitting with two of my friends at the time. 0:38:08.719 --> 0:38:11.319 Elon was one of them. Yes, right, I won't like 0:38:11.640 --> 0:38:14.600 and they're like, oh, yeah, everyone smart I know is 0:38:16.560 --> 0:38:19.880 living in a simulation. And I was like, am I smart? 0:38:20.239 --> 0:38:20.839 And they're like yes. 0:38:20.920 --> 0:38:23.520 I'm like, well, then not everyone. 0:38:24.360 --> 0:38:26.120 And it wasn't I remember the origin that we had 0:38:26.160 --> 0:38:28.600 second life, we had some of these virtual realities. Maybe 0:38:28.640 --> 0:38:30.960 they were alluding to a version of playing around with that, 0:38:31.040 --> 0:38:34.279 but they mean quite literally, we're in a simulation. 0:38:33.960 --> 0:38:39.480 Yes, And so I think simulation is the kind of 0:38:39.600 --> 0:38:44.319 classic theory that gets people to like the kind of 0:38:44.480 --> 0:38:47.600 Christian theory of intelligent design about how we get created 0:38:47.880 --> 0:38:49.960 or the Firman s parad I was like, we have 0:38:50.080 --> 0:38:54.160 questions we don't know the answers to therefore, right simulation 0:38:54.360 --> 0:38:57.040 and you're like, no, no, we have questions we don't 0:38:57.120 --> 0:39:02.600 answers to stop, like, we will try to figure out 0:39:02.640 --> 0:39:05.920 the answers of those questions. Like the simulation theory stuff 0:39:06.000 --> 0:39:09.480 is like, sure, there's unknowns, like, for example, the classic 0:39:09.520 --> 0:39:11.200 one that you usually used to argue with this is 0:39:11.600 --> 0:39:14.839 we don't have signals that there's other intelligent universe in life, 0:39:15.400 --> 0:39:18.440 in the universe and so you know, like with radio 0:39:18.480 --> 0:39:22.880 waves and statistics and all the rest, we should have that. Well, okay, 0:39:23.040 --> 0:39:26.440 that's an interesting puzzle. That's an interesting question. Why do 0:39:26.520 --> 0:39:30.319 we not have that? And but like and therefore we're 0:39:30.320 --> 0:39:34.960 in a simulation is like, that's a lot of cognitive 0:39:35.120 --> 0:39:38.360 theoretical infrastructure to explain this in a similar like like 0:39:38.440 --> 0:39:43.760 the hey, we have an unknown about the complexity about 0:39:43.880 --> 0:39:49.279 how human brains evolved and what the intermediate steps looked like, Well, 0:39:49.280 --> 0:39:53.160 therefore there must be a creator. Well there's a lot 0:39:53.200 --> 0:39:56.080 of it's an unknown and by the way, therefore them 0:39:56.160 --> 0:39:57.560 must be a creator. And therefore, by the way, the 0:39:57.560 --> 0:40:00.120 creator must be my religion, not any of the other twenties. 0:40:00.400 --> 0:40:04.520 Like it's like what like it's like, no, no pause 0:40:04.560 --> 0:40:06.920 on the mystery, right, and then go, okay, we have 0:40:06.920 --> 0:40:09.280 an unknown answer, So there's a whole bunch of craziness. 0:40:09.320 --> 0:40:11.400 But I think coming back to the first part of 0:40:11.400 --> 0:40:13.680 your question, I think is very important because I think this. 0:40:14.120 --> 0:40:16.399 I've been giving some speeches in Italy, like I gave 0:40:16.440 --> 0:40:20.160 one a Bologna and Perusia because I wanted Silicon Valley 0:40:20.239 --> 0:40:24.200 to remember some of the important humanist nature of the Renaissance, 0:40:24.760 --> 0:40:27.680 which is, what is it to really be a humanist 0:40:28.000 --> 0:40:31.440 when you're thinking about this technology? And it's not just 0:40:31.560 --> 0:40:37.000 self declaration I am humanist? Like no, that that that's nice, 0:40:37.320 --> 0:40:41.680 it's better than I'm not right, But it's like, well, 0:40:41.680 --> 0:40:44.880 what is it to be humanist to say, Look, I 0:40:45.080 --> 0:40:49.880 have a theory about why the work I'm doing will 0:40:49.920 --> 0:40:54.879 cause a much better result for call it at least 0:40:55.040 --> 0:40:59.160 eighty percent of humanity. Then the next thing is, and 0:40:59.239 --> 0:41:03.080 I'm transparent about it, I'm talking about it. I'm giving 0:41:03.080 --> 0:41:07.239 you a chance to critique me, dialogue with me, et cetera, 0:41:07.320 --> 0:41:10.319 et cetera. And then this is a super important thing 0:41:11.000 --> 0:41:14.719 is I'm not like a narcissist about it. I don't 0:41:14.719 --> 0:41:17.279 come to my theory of humanity because I go, well, 0:41:17.280 --> 0:41:21.319 this's good for me, right, or or I'm the most 0:41:21.320 --> 0:41:23.600 genius person in the world. Everyone else's theory of humanity 0:41:23.640 --> 0:41:25.520 is bad. Mine is the good one. But you know, 0:41:26.080 --> 0:41:31.160 engage in dialogue, get critique, understand kind of what's going 0:41:31.200 --> 0:41:35.759 on for this. That's what being a humanist for technology 0:41:35.880 --> 0:41:41.680 is right, and we have some right great. Doesn't mean 0:41:41.719 --> 0:41:45.960 that they don't make mistakes Dario sam et cetera. But 0:41:46.000 --> 0:41:49.200 they're they're actually, in fact, they are committed. And you 0:41:49.200 --> 0:41:51.560 can tell they're committed because they do things that are 0:41:51.960 --> 0:41:54.680 not in their own economic self interest and they invest 0:41:54.719 --> 0:41:57.879 in it in order to try to make it work. 0:41:57.960 --> 0:42:00.719 Doesn't mean they're perfect, doesn't. I mean it's not worth 0:42:00.760 --> 0:42:04.120 speaking up and say, hey, do X do also more 0:42:04.160 --> 0:42:07.600 of X or less of why? Perfectly good thing to do. 0:42:08.160 --> 0:42:10.239 It's part of the reason why we have the dialogue 0:42:10.239 --> 0:42:12.919 about it, to say, hey, the way that we try 0:42:12.920 --> 0:42:16.520 to make decisions about because because your answers, these technologies 0:42:16.560 --> 0:42:20.440 will build by small groups of people right and will 0:42:20.480 --> 0:42:25.200 have humanity level impact. And you're like, okay, you can't 0:42:25.239 --> 0:42:29.640 then say hey, we're gonna have a un global voting day. 0:42:30.320 --> 0:42:33.560 That's not the way it's gonna work. So the dialogue 0:42:33.560 --> 0:42:36.799 and bringing up the concerns about what it is is 0:42:37.040 --> 0:42:40.240 that iteration is the way that we get to being 0:42:40.480 --> 0:42:41.520 more broadly humanist. 0:42:42.520 --> 0:42:45.680 What are the great anxieties? And you triggered it this 0:42:45.800 --> 0:42:48.759 notion that it's a handful of people. Yeah, and you know, 0:42:48.800 --> 0:42:53.120 we talked about the American version and least having a 0:42:53.440 --> 0:42:57.600 chance at regulating something within our quote unquote jurisdiction. But 0:42:57.719 --> 0:43:03.760 regulatory capture is real. Yeah, just massive obscene off the charts. 0:43:03.800 --> 0:43:07.879 Wealth comes with massive obscene influence to write the rules 0:43:07.880 --> 0:43:11.640 of regulations to and the incumbency protection racket, So lock 0:43:11.719 --> 0:43:16.759 everything out and lock everybody out to buy politicians. Yes, 0:43:16.960 --> 0:43:20.319 I mean, so how does that play in? I mean, 0:43:20.400 --> 0:43:23.680 that certainly plays it. That is playing into people's anxiety 0:43:24.040 --> 0:43:25.640 in a profound and outsized way. 0:43:25.680 --> 0:43:30.560 How do we address both? And so when you have 0:43:30.640 --> 0:43:34.000 a kind of a tsunami like this, and this is 0:43:34.560 --> 0:43:36.960 to some degree talking to you, talking to the Dems 0:43:36.960 --> 0:43:38.879 on this, who tend to be the oh fight all 0:43:38.920 --> 0:43:41.400 the wealthy power, and you're like, you need capital on 0:43:41.480 --> 0:43:45.880 your side too, right, politically right, So have that as 0:43:45.920 --> 0:43:48.760 a good theory of the game. So the issue is say, 0:43:48.880 --> 0:43:51.239 and like for example, and I'll come back to AI, 0:43:51.400 --> 0:43:53.520 but this is like the mistake the dems made with crypto, 0:43:54.000 --> 0:43:56.560 which is like, there's a huge amount crypto wealth. If 0:43:56.560 --> 0:43:59.080 we just go attack it and go, hey, we're just 0:43:59.120 --> 0:44:00.759 going to try to kill all of you. The go 0:44:01.120 --> 0:44:03.279 you're trying to kill us. Okay, we're going to vote 0:44:03.320 --> 0:44:05.279 the other way with not just our votes but our 0:44:05.320 --> 0:44:07.200 dollars and all the rest. And it's like, okay, that's 0:44:07.239 --> 0:44:10.240 really painful and causes a whole bunch of bad outcomes 0:44:10.239 --> 0:44:12.880 for society. So again you go, well, how do we 0:44:12.960 --> 0:44:14.840 shape it. It's like, look, we're not trying to like 0:44:15.280 --> 0:44:17.200 extinguish all of you. We're trying to make sure that 0:44:17.239 --> 0:44:21.879 crypto has the right positive function in society. And they say, well, 0:44:21.880 --> 0:44:24.600 I can't envision anything. It's like, well, I come call me. 0:44:25.040 --> 0:44:29.160 I can envision things. Right, there's payments, there's much cheaper 0:44:29.160 --> 0:44:32.000 banking systems, there's all kinds of things. Let's just shape 0:44:32.000 --> 0:44:34.600 it that direction. Yeah, I get it. You don't like 0:44:34.800 --> 0:44:39.040 because who does like terrorist ransom coin? Right, like like 0:44:39.120 --> 0:44:40.960 you know, like there's a bunch of bad shit we 0:44:41.000 --> 0:44:43.680 should do bad shit about that, Or the question of 0:44:43.880 --> 0:44:46.640 well it's this random speculation. It's like, well, look, we 0:44:46.680 --> 0:44:49.520 do allow betting in various ways, let's try to contain 0:44:49.600 --> 0:44:52.640 it and make sure it's not too bad. You know, 0:44:52.760 --> 0:44:55.440 same reason why we go. You know, alcohol has a 0:44:55.440 --> 0:44:58.239 bunch of bad outcomes, but it's better for society if 0:44:58.280 --> 0:45:02.120 we go. Sure, it's okay if when you get to 0:45:02.160 --> 0:45:05.879 age you drink, don't drive. But it's like that kind 0:45:05.880 --> 0:45:08.359 of stuff. You get to shape it right, because there's 0:45:08.360 --> 0:45:10.120 certain ways. Now you get to AI and you say, 0:45:10.120 --> 0:45:13.840 all right, an AI wealth generation, and it's like shit, 0:45:14.000 --> 0:45:18.000 this is creating a massive amount of economics that will 0:45:18.160 --> 0:45:22.400 have massive impact politically. And by the way, what shared 0:45:22.600 --> 0:45:27.760 across all this economics is a interest in not having 0:45:28.400 --> 0:45:34.080 the economics of the AI industry like trimmed, right. And 0:45:35.120 --> 0:45:37.440 by the way, some of that trimming is a terrible idea, 0:45:37.440 --> 0:45:39.759 which is let's just reduce our own American wealth. Some 0:45:39.880 --> 0:45:42.440 of it, like taxation for helping the rest of society, 0:45:43.000 --> 0:45:49.279 can be a good idea. Right. So it's and you know, 0:45:49.680 --> 0:45:51.840 getting it right is hard, but I think it's doable. 0:45:53.200 --> 0:45:55.799 And it's like, well, then you go to, well, who 0:45:55.800 --> 0:45:58.200 are the people who would be with me on, hey, 0:45:58.280 --> 0:46:01.800 we should tax AI in some good ways, robot tax 0:46:01.840 --> 0:46:03.920 whatever else, and I'll make it happen. What are the 0:46:03.960 --> 0:46:05.640 ways we do that? So we take off some of 0:46:05.680 --> 0:46:10.200 the AI wealth that fights on our side for helping society, 0:46:10.640 --> 0:46:13.319 and we fight against the other AI wealth that's like no, no, no, 0:46:13.360 --> 0:46:15.880 I should take my trillion dollars and be able to 0:46:15.880 --> 0:46:19.239 do whatever the hell I want. So easier said than done. 0:46:19.239 --> 0:46:22.080 I mean, this gets too And we talk about that turbulence, 0:46:22.080 --> 0:46:25.000 and we talk about the transition and using your vernacular, 0:46:25.280 --> 0:46:27.560 and there's a lot of conversations about all right, if 0:46:28.120 --> 0:46:32.879 this does have a more pronounced impact sooner than we anticipated, 0:46:32.920 --> 0:46:35.480 and we don't have the answer to what to do 0:46:35.560 --> 0:46:37.920 about that, and we don't have the AI solution to 0:46:37.960 --> 0:46:41.279 address the AI problem in terms of that transition, this 0:46:41.360 --> 0:46:45.560 notion of universic basic income versus universic basic capital, this 0:46:45.640 --> 0:46:51.160 notion of equity, this notion of ownership broadly shared so 0:46:51.200 --> 0:46:53.160 that we can address some of that anxiety. We all 0:46:53.200 --> 0:46:55.080 have a mistake in the game. You tend to be 0:46:55.239 --> 0:46:59.480 on the UBC yes side of this equation. But the 0:46:59.560 --> 0:47:01.960 question I have for you is not where you are 0:47:02.040 --> 0:47:05.120 on that simple question the binary, at least in that context, 0:47:05.160 --> 0:47:07.680 which is hardly the binary. But the question I posed 0:47:09.000 --> 0:47:10.040 is how the hell you do it. 0:47:10.560 --> 0:47:11.400 Who's going to do it? 0:47:11.480 --> 0:47:13.520 You think Sam's gonna he says two and a half percent. 0:47:13.800 --> 0:47:16.719 You know what, they're about to go public. We've we've 0:47:16.760 --> 0:47:18.879 called fort in California. Why doesn't he do it here 0:47:18.880 --> 0:47:20.880 in California. Let's well, happily take two and a half 0:47:20.920 --> 0:47:23.439 percent a year in this his home state that helped 0:47:23.440 --> 0:47:25.600 birth this damn industry. I think he's going to pick 0:47:25.640 --> 0:47:26.719 up the phone after hearing this. 0:47:27.320 --> 0:47:30.320 Uh he might. I'm like, Sam cares about the stuff. 0:47:30.520 --> 0:47:34.320 To his credit, he put out exactly and to his credit, 0:47:34.640 --> 0:47:35.680 yes he put that out. 0:47:35.840 --> 0:47:39.480 Yes, he put that out. He's been running universal basic 0:47:39.520 --> 0:47:43.719 income experiments, funding it himself in Oakland. Like like like 0:47:44.120 --> 0:47:46.600 he's here's the moment. Yeah, so this is the moment. 0:47:46.680 --> 0:47:50.040 Yeah, all these I pos coming, Dario, here's the moment. 0:47:50.200 --> 0:47:53.200 Yes. No, So like I think he do a great 0:47:53.280 --> 0:47:57.880 called ass right now. I actually believe of all of 0:47:57.920 --> 0:48:00.760 the open Ai folks and all of the Tropic folks, 0:48:01.920 --> 0:48:04.320 they're very philanthropically minded. 0:48:04.719 --> 0:48:08.560 So I think like the foundation, I mean, objectively, you 0:48:08.600 --> 0:48:11.960 can you can dismiss these I get the populist these guys, 0:48:12.360 --> 0:48:15.160 but they did put a foundation with the largest in 0:48:15.200 --> 0:48:19.040 the world yes, exactly. That they set up exists, yes, 0:48:19.600 --> 0:48:22.360 and has tens a bit over one hundred billion dollars. 0:48:22.680 --> 0:48:26.640 Today, Yes, exactly, and so and what I think is unlike, 0:48:26.680 --> 0:48:29.239 for example, take the Open AI Foundation. I don't think 0:48:29.239 --> 0:48:31.480 they're going to be sitting on their hands, right. And 0:48:31.520 --> 0:48:33.040 I actually think one of the things that you know 0:48:33.080 --> 0:48:35.480 you should do, and I think California should do, you know, 0:48:35.880 --> 0:48:40.520 uh it should be, is hey, you guys, uh, you know, 0:48:40.960 --> 0:48:46.440 we're only possible because of California, right, Like we provided 0:48:46.680 --> 0:48:50.080 the platform by which you guys could do this, could 0:48:50.080 --> 0:48:53.240 you guys, you know, disproportionately focused on helping our state 0:48:53.320 --> 0:48:55.160 and doing stuff we'd love to talk? 0:48:55.360 --> 0:48:59.360 You supposed to take your capital gaze to Texas, Yes, Texas, Florida, 0:48:59.400 --> 0:48:59.719 et cetera. 0:48:59.760 --> 0:49:03.880 It's like, yeah, like you couldn't have made this without us, correct, 0:49:04.040 --> 0:49:08.239 so in fact, so please contribute back, right or contribute 0:49:08.239 --> 0:49:11.040 back without the police. Yes, we're grateful for the job 0:49:11.080 --> 0:49:13.200 creation of the innovation. We're grateful for all the energy 0:49:13.200 --> 0:49:13.680 and daring. 0:49:13.920 --> 0:49:17.280 We're very very proud of your success and and please 0:49:17.400 --> 0:49:20.240 yes and time, yes, yes, right, because like for example, 0:49:20.280 --> 0:49:23.680 you know, space had forward impossible without this state, yea 0:49:23.840 --> 0:49:26.400 Tesla exists without the regulations. 0:49:25.840 --> 0:49:28.640 Impossible period without this state. Thank you, right, So it's like. 0:49:28.600 --> 0:49:31.480 You're welcome, Elan, and thank you for your innovation and 0:49:31.560 --> 0:49:32.279 daring as well. 0:49:32.360 --> 0:49:38.040 Yes, extremely importantly, I'm pretty sure you're gonna ask me 0:49:38.040 --> 0:49:39.719 a question where I'm about to dump on you lot, 0:49:39.960 --> 0:49:43.759 but for a good reason. But this is amazing for 0:49:43.800 --> 0:49:46.040 me to have to ask. Yes. But why isn't I mean, 0:49:46.360 --> 0:49:49.560 so let's you open that door. Why doesn't he feel 0:49:49.600 --> 0:49:53.399 this way? I mean, honestly, well, because me, what what? What? 0:49:53.400 --> 0:49:53.960 What is it? 0:49:54.080 --> 0:49:56.200 You know? I remember there was a different guy though 0:49:56.400 --> 0:49:57.719 I was with someone the other day. I said, no, 0:49:57.800 --> 0:49:59.600 he was always this guy and I said, well, you 0:49:59.640 --> 0:50:02.720 didn't or that way in the fifteen interactions I had, 0:50:03.200 --> 0:50:04.640 you know him better than anybody. 0:50:05.120 --> 0:50:09.120 So the people are a dynamic. So the question is 0:50:09.160 --> 0:50:12.560 where do they go as they get more power, more 0:50:12.760 --> 0:50:15.120 sycophants around them, and so forth. And the answer is 0:50:15.239 --> 0:50:18.879 Elon became a narcissist to who he wasn't a narcissist. 0:50:19.400 --> 0:50:21.640 I think he was a small narcissist and now he's 0:50:21.640 --> 0:50:26.279 a big narcissist, right, and like he lies through his 0:50:26.360 --> 0:50:29.040 teeth constantly. I don't know if he if he tells 0:50:29.080 --> 0:50:33.000 him self stories about it, like and it basically like 0:50:33.080 --> 0:50:38.359 the like like the whole pitiful open AI lawsuit, it 0:50:38.400 --> 0:50:42.680 was pathetic and courts agreed. Yes, well, and it's pathetic 0:50:43.160 --> 0:50:47.080 written out large for everyone to see. Yeah, that too, 0:50:47.719 --> 0:50:51.520 right now, It's like it's a court of law with 0:50:51.520 --> 0:50:58.160 with truth in like documents, depositions, et cetera. It's just pathetic. 0:50:58.360 --> 0:51:01.040 It's like the no, no, no, Like I'm trying to 0:51:01.040 --> 0:51:03.279 do anything possible to argue that you guys are wrong 0:51:03.320 --> 0:51:05.680 and I was right, and it's like, no, they were 0:51:05.719 --> 0:51:06.520 right and you were wrong. 0:51:07.719 --> 0:51:11.920 But it's just I mean, so it just I mean, 0:51:11.960 --> 0:51:14.920 I guess, I mean, it's just a classic clinical definition 0:51:14.960 --> 0:51:15.719 of narcissism. 0:51:15.880 --> 0:51:18.920 Yeah. Well, and like, for example, he goes I like, 0:51:18.960 --> 0:51:22.960 for example, he helps found open ai as like we 0:51:23.040 --> 0:51:26.439 need to have AI for the benefit of humanity, not 0:51:26.719 --> 0:51:29.839 just Google, okay, and he goes, oh, should I should 0:51:29.880 --> 0:51:33.680 have my own? So he gets XAI started, and in 0:51:33.719 --> 0:51:38.200 a desperate bid for market share, he's like, oh, yeah, 0:51:38.280 --> 0:51:41.000 that's fine. If we create a whole bunch of like 0:51:41.760 --> 0:51:45.719 pornographic images, some of which your children, your journalists have 0:51:45.760 --> 0:51:48.799 been reporting on this et cetera. And that's because it's 0:51:48.840 --> 0:51:53.880 more important that I have this AI thing than this 0:51:54.080 --> 0:51:56.319 damage that we're doing to children and all the rest 0:51:56.360 --> 0:51:57.920 of stuff. It's like, it's crazy. 0:51:58.680 --> 0:52:00.960 So do I mean, by the way, just I mean 0:52:01.239 --> 0:52:04.520 accelerating and fast forward. I mean space space X is 0:52:04.520 --> 0:52:08.320 a pretty remarkable company on the basis of the facts 0:52:08.320 --> 0:52:11.239 and evidence starlink in particular from a sort of cash 0:52:11.239 --> 0:52:13.640 flow perspective, an ROI perspective. 0:52:13.640 --> 0:52:15.000 And a goodness for society. 0:52:15.520 --> 0:52:17.520 Yeah, and by the way, I've seen that firsthand in 0:52:17.520 --> 0:52:21.239 the middle of the Amazon, which actually really inspired and 0:52:21.280 --> 0:52:25.560 surprised me to be that, in fact universally awkwardly connected 0:52:25.560 --> 0:52:28.399 in the middle of the rainforest, even more so than 0:52:28.440 --> 0:52:32.080 frankly out here in the Silicon Valley. But I'm curious, 0:52:32.280 --> 0:52:35.840 just you know, with regardless SpaceX in the IPO, I mean, 0:52:35.880 --> 0:52:37.680 there's other component parts of that that are a little 0:52:37.719 --> 0:52:40.600 more dubious and questionable. There are folks out there, deeply 0:52:40.640 --> 0:52:42.279 more cynical than I am that just call it a 0:52:42.360 --> 0:52:44.280 dam Ponzi scheme period full stop. 0:52:44.320 --> 0:52:48.920 Where you are on then, for example, yes, look, so 0:52:49.040 --> 0:52:55.840 I'm a small investor, but I think it's nuts, right, 0:52:54.760 --> 0:52:58.680 It's I mean, it's like look, for example, you look 0:52:58.719 --> 0:53:00.880 at the they just look at the pspectus. And the 0:53:01.680 --> 0:53:04.879 biggest part of it is payments from Anthropic for these 0:53:04.960 --> 0:53:10.320 data centers that are horrific for the environment, are badly 0:53:10.360 --> 0:53:14.319 set up in their networking equipment. That nominally, he's trying 0:53:14.320 --> 0:53:18.200 to restart XAI for the third time by Cursor to 0:53:18.239 --> 0:53:19.360 go somewhere. 0:53:19.360 --> 0:53:22.600 By sixty billion dollars sanan Scho based company that five 0:53:22.680 --> 0:53:24.880 years ago didn't exist. 0:53:25.000 --> 0:53:28.360 Yes, and it's like okay, and I'm glad he's buying Cursor, 0:53:28.600 --> 0:53:30.799 you know, great, hopefully something will come of it. 0:53:30.880 --> 0:53:33.960 What are they vibe? What is vibe coding? Sorry to 0:53:33.960 --> 0:53:36.800 go down that rabbitries, but it's a vibe coding company. 0:53:37.160 --> 0:53:42.239 Well, it's one of the early revolutionis of how do 0:53:42.280 --> 0:53:46.400 you have AI accelerate your coding? And Vibe coding is 0:53:46.440 --> 0:53:48.359 a part of that. It's not the whole thing. It's like, 0:53:48.719 --> 0:53:53.360 you know, like basically, anyone who is coding who's not 0:53:53.520 --> 0:53:56.360 using AI right now or not. Everyone called it ninety 0:53:56.360 --> 0:53:59.759 plus percent. If you're coding and not using AI, you're 0:53:59.760 --> 0:54:04.600 making mistake, right, so and and it's only getting better, 0:54:05.000 --> 0:54:11.439 right and both Claude codex. Uh sorry, claud code open 0:54:11.440 --> 0:54:14.880 a codex. I think Microsoft Copilot. I think we'll have 0:54:14.920 --> 0:54:19.319 a good entry here are all, you know, I think 0:54:21.120 --> 0:54:24.799 the fundamental way has changed the entire world in terms 0:54:24.840 --> 0:54:28.080 of how we operate. So and dropics willing to buy 0:54:28.400 --> 0:54:31.839 the revenue, but like that is your primary revenue thing 0:54:32.080 --> 0:54:36.239 in the thing that you're going public on, like this 0:54:36.320 --> 0:54:39.640 is in the government. Yes, well, and then you're like, oh, 0:54:39.719 --> 0:54:42.920 the dj is saying they've got to drop the lawsuit 0:54:42.960 --> 0:54:45.400 because this is part of our national scurity defense, Like well, 0:54:45.440 --> 0:54:48.439 that's none of that's in their perspectives. And by the way, 0:54:48.840 --> 0:54:53.280 the entire XAI thing, Elon himself said it's a complete 0:54:53.320 --> 0:54:55.960 train wreck. We're rebuilding it. I was like, well, you know, 0:54:56.000 --> 0:54:58.319 if you had like honor integrity, you'd say, well, we'll 0:54:58.360 --> 0:55:00.920 hand back those government contracts because we just said our 0:55:00.960 --> 0:55:04.680 product was a complete train wreck. Right. It's like, you know, 0:55:04.800 --> 0:55:07.560 so just it's all corruption, I. 0:55:07.480 --> 0:55:10.680 Mean corruption, Yeah, I mean you just call it. 0:55:10.880 --> 0:55:13.280 Yeah, call what it is. Call it what it is. Yeah, 0:55:13.320 --> 0:55:16.840 we're living in the in the in the greatest kleptocracy 0:55:16.880 --> 0:55:17.320 of your. 0:55:17.200 --> 0:55:21.480 In my lifetimes, and it's I want to circle back 0:55:21.520 --> 0:55:24.200 on that stay tuned for those that are tuning in 0:55:24.719 --> 0:55:25.840 on that, because. 0:55:25.560 --> 0:55:26.600 That deserves some attention. 0:55:26.960 --> 0:55:29.279 But as we sort of bounce back and forth the 0:55:29.320 --> 0:55:32.680 anthropic data center point you made in this notion of compute, 0:55:32.800 --> 0:55:34.680 and you made the point the biggest limiting factor in 0:55:34.760 --> 0:55:37.760 terms of the acceleration is less. The chips is important 0:55:37.800 --> 0:55:40.520 and profound as they are, it's really about the compute. 0:55:40.600 --> 0:55:43.200 And so it gets to the question of data centers 0:55:43.239 --> 0:55:45.360 and all the anxiety and data centers which has actually 0:55:45.400 --> 0:55:46.800 been sort of a leading indicator of one of the 0:55:46.840 --> 0:55:50.240 reasons people have such animis towards AI because they connect 0:55:50.239 --> 0:55:52.680 the dots. And there's been a few studies DC Maryland 0:55:52.920 --> 0:55:57.040 that's sixty percent of the growth of those retail or 0:55:57.120 --> 0:55:59.560 rather residential utility bills have been attached to the issue 0:55:59.560 --> 0:56:00.600 of data or growth. 0:56:00.840 --> 0:56:01.920 So where are you and all that? 0:56:01.960 --> 0:56:05.319 I know you've said we blamed AI for everything. So 0:56:05.600 --> 0:56:08.879 the issue of utility costs which have been growing yep, 0:56:09.160 --> 0:56:12.320 separate from AI, certainly haven't been benefited. 0:56:12.760 --> 0:56:15.000 Yeah, they're not benefiting centers. Look, I think that the 0:56:15.400 --> 0:56:19.160 clear thing for you and other folks to do is say, look, 0:56:19.560 --> 0:56:24.200 we want to enable data centers that are very positive 0:56:24.200 --> 0:56:27.560 contributors to communities. So, for example, very easy one is 0:56:27.600 --> 0:56:31.799 to say, hey, if you're building a massive data center, 0:56:31.960 --> 0:56:34.239 you have to provision power at like one hundred and 0:56:34.280 --> 0:56:39.880 thirty percent, right, and that thirty percent is that's amongst 0:56:39.920 --> 0:56:44.759 the things that you're contributing back, right and so so. 0:56:44.880 --> 0:56:47.720 And by the way, who should benefit from that, Well, 0:56:48.040 --> 0:56:50.359 the local residents who should have a choice whether they 0:56:50.360 --> 0:56:55.920 want that or not. Their powerbells go down right as 0:56:56.000 --> 0:56:56.400 part of that. 0:56:56.719 --> 0:57:00.400 I mean the irony is the data centers are getting 0:57:00.520 --> 0:57:05.400 subsidies on their bills and we're socializing an increase on 0:57:05.440 --> 0:57:06.320 everybody else's. 0:57:06.360 --> 0:57:08.279 No, and so what it should be is that you 0:57:08.320 --> 0:57:11.319 should contribute. Look, we will help you because, by the way, 0:57:11.920 --> 0:57:14.719 knowing from the inside Microsoft board and other things they 0:57:14.760 --> 0:57:18.480 care about, here, you are walking conflict. Yeah I don't know, 0:57:18.560 --> 0:57:23.480 but that's a conflict, but information informed. Look what do 0:57:23.560 --> 0:57:26.640 these hyperscalers care about. They care about reliability, ability to 0:57:26.680 --> 0:57:29.880 construct the thing, ability to deploy it, ability to manage 0:57:29.880 --> 0:57:32.760 it the right way, et cetera. Look, if you said 0:57:33.160 --> 0:57:36.400 you have to have like your cost structural increase because 0:57:36.440 --> 0:57:38.040 you have to have a one hundred and thirty percent 0:57:38.400 --> 0:57:41.959 contribution for the power stuff. They would sign that deal 0:57:41.960 --> 0:57:44.760 in a heartbeat if you gave the like if you 0:57:44.760 --> 0:57:47.440 you said hey, and and by the way, they do more. 0:57:47.440 --> 0:57:48.720 It's like, well, what are you going to do for 0:57:48.760 --> 0:57:51.760 local community in terms of jobs? Right, we want we 0:57:51.760 --> 0:57:55.440 want to see something serious here. Look, it's a simple 0:57:56.080 --> 0:57:58.080 kind of like like simple set of asks. 0:57:58.320 --> 0:58:01.120 And in the absence of that, they'll take what you're 0:58:01.160 --> 0:58:03.240 giving because it's of course tasting for these things. 0:58:03.840 --> 0:58:05.760 I think it's twenty five percent of all their base load. 0:58:05.800 --> 0:58:09.240 Now, yes, it's data centers, which is off the charts insane. 0:58:09.320 --> 0:58:11.560 Yeah, and so you should it should be an ask 0:58:11.680 --> 0:58:15.000 for we will help you do this stuff. These are 0:58:15.040 --> 0:58:16.400 the things you need to do. And by the way, 0:58:16.400 --> 0:58:18.320 if someone else give you a better deal, fine, go 0:58:18.360 --> 0:58:19.040 with this someone else. 0:58:19.160 --> 0:58:21.320 This notion of jobs though, I mean, the construction jobs 0:58:21.320 --> 0:58:24.280 are legit and we should celebrate that. And these are 0:58:24.360 --> 0:58:28.160 good high paying jobs and and and careers, and people 0:58:28.240 --> 0:58:31.560 bounce around even they're temporary and get the benefit of that. 0:58:31.600 --> 0:58:33.400 But there are not a lot of jobs on the 0:58:33.400 --> 0:58:34.360 permanent side of this. 0:58:34.640 --> 0:58:37.120 No, although, for example, when you're going to hyperscalers, let's 0:58:37.120 --> 0:58:39.120 take Microsoft. The thing I would ask if I was 0:58:39.240 --> 0:58:41.400 a local areas, I'd say, I want you to open 0:58:41.520 --> 0:58:44.840 up a Microsoft office here. Now you're talking, just open 0:58:44.960 --> 0:58:45.760 up a Microsoft office. 0:58:45.760 --> 0:58:48.880 We need to be better Dan negotiators, yes, whereas I 0:58:48.880 --> 0:58:52.960 mean we just yeah, okay, I mean I'm having a 0:58:52.960 --> 0:58:56.720 hard time arguing with these these deeper points. What about 0:58:56.760 --> 0:58:59.720 this notion of these things being what is it's the 0:58:59.760 --> 0:59:03.000 g don't last very long, right, just a few years? 0:59:03.440 --> 0:59:05.520 Well, because the next ones are so much better. 0:59:05.720 --> 0:59:10.240 Right, So is this I mean back to froth even 0:59:10.320 --> 0:59:13.560 KKR big promoter in the future, I mean saying a 0:59:13.560 --> 0:59:17.880 little froth here, Sam said, bubble Mark, you know all 0:59:17.920 --> 0:59:20.120 these guys, I mean, you know, the. 0:59:19.640 --> 0:59:20.600 Zucker Birds of the world. 0:59:20.760 --> 0:59:23.800 You're like, ah, yeah, I mean so this knows where 0:59:23.800 --> 0:59:27.640 are you in the bubble on the sort of frothy bubble, 0:59:27.960 --> 0:59:29.600 so of this and the capex in this. 0:59:29.600 --> 0:59:33.680 Space and that the ROI is you. 0:59:33.640 --> 0:59:35.760 Know or is it? It's electricity to you? 0:59:36.200 --> 0:59:40.360 So I think it's ultimately electricity where we're getting intelligence 0:59:40.480 --> 0:59:46.600 at the cost and scale of electricity, and that's just great. 0:59:46.640 --> 0:59:48.000 And so for example, it's one of the reasons why 0:59:48.000 --> 0:59:51.080 a lot of the challenges are just wrong. Like they said, 0:59:51.120 --> 0:59:54.880 well you know, uh, you know, climate impact, and you're like, well, actually, 0:59:55.000 --> 0:59:57.160 let's just make sure that AI is applying something to 0:59:57.560 --> 1:00:01.200 grid analysis and power running. And so then as you say, hey, 1:00:01.360 --> 1:00:03.840 if all of a sudden, all of the h facts 1:00:03.920 --> 1:00:07.360 and laundry machines and all the rest were intelligent devices 1:00:07.400 --> 1:00:10.800 that ran when it was cheap on the grid and 1:00:10.840 --> 1:00:14.080 all the rest and was doing power management net very 1:00:14.080 --> 1:00:16.080 positive benefit. And we've already seen Google do that with 1:00:16.080 --> 1:00:18.080 their own data centers and all the rest. Like, it's 1:00:18.120 --> 1:00:20.280 a whole bunch of stuff there, And I think the 1:00:20.320 --> 1:00:24.400 same thing in terms of ultimately that doesn't mean that 1:00:24.440 --> 1:00:27.360 there won't be some things that are Ponzi schemes and 1:00:27.400 --> 1:00:33.640 some things that are major economic losses. But a bubble 1:00:33.800 --> 1:00:37.280 is oh, this isn't sustainable. It all just kind of 1:00:37.320 --> 1:00:40.920 falls down and it has domino effects other things. The 1:00:41.000 --> 1:00:45.600 short answer is, like nthropics revenue is limited by its compute. 1:00:46.240 --> 1:00:49.280 It has more demand that it can provide right now, 1:00:49.480 --> 1:00:52.920 and so that like this isn't like oh, no one 1:00:52.960 --> 1:00:57.360 wants this. It's no, no, This intelligence at the scale 1:00:57.400 --> 1:01:03.760 and cost of electricity is massively useful, massively wanted. So 1:01:04.360 --> 1:01:08.040 doesn't mean you say well, maybe we built that data 1:01:08.080 --> 1:01:11.400 center for fifty billion and action ends up being worth 1:01:11.440 --> 1:01:15.240 forty billion, and we've got some operating losses, but by 1:01:15.240 --> 1:01:18.480 the way in operating it, it operates profitably and all 1:01:18.480 --> 1:01:20.040 the rest, and we just have to take a charge down. 1:01:20.800 --> 1:01:23.600 That's not a bubble, that's volatility in a market. 1:01:24.280 --> 1:01:27.720 Yeah, what do you make of a market which is 1:01:27.760 --> 1:01:31.280 so fierce in the competition this notion, that of super intelligence, 1:01:31.320 --> 1:01:34.280 this race to this holy grail and then a nanosecond 1:01:34.360 --> 1:01:36.200 I shut every competitor down. 1:01:36.280 --> 1:01:39.160 I quite literally talk about the Messiah complex. I own 1:01:39.240 --> 1:01:43.360 the world in my palm of my hand, maybe literally. 1:01:44.760 --> 1:01:49.840 That a company like Google and Gemini are uniquely positioned 1:01:50.240 --> 1:01:55.280 against an anthropic, against open ai and others just on 1:01:55.320 --> 1:01:57.760 the token question that they can sort of do what 1:01:58.200 --> 1:02:02.080 companies Amazon infamously many other companies do, and that's just 1:02:02.200 --> 1:02:05.600 gut their competition and price them out by lowering the 1:02:05.640 --> 1:02:09.560 cost below their actual cost and have tokens as lost 1:02:09.600 --> 1:02:11.840 leaders until they bleed out their competition. 1:02:12.160 --> 1:02:16.160 Well, they definitely are the cheapest price tokens of the 1:02:16.200 --> 1:02:19.080 major stuff today and it's not having that much of 1:02:19.120 --> 1:02:24.280 an impact. Interesting, right, so right, So it isn't that 1:02:24.360 --> 1:02:26.520 to say it's an it's a not an issue to 1:02:26.520 --> 1:02:30.240 pay attention to. But like for example, when people kind 1:02:30.280 --> 1:02:35.040 of check token costs across call it. You know, you 1:02:35.080 --> 1:02:38.440 know open Ai and Thropic and Google. Google's by far 1:02:38.480 --> 1:02:42.040 and away the cheapest, but the heat and usage is 1:02:42.080 --> 1:02:45.960 still an open eye and and and Anthropic and by 1:02:46.000 --> 1:02:50.720 the way, within the enterprise context Microsoft, right and so, 1:02:50.720 --> 1:02:53.440 so yes, that's a worry, but it's not really playing 1:02:53.480 --> 1:02:56.080 out that way now. Some of it is you know, 1:02:56.120 --> 1:02:59.720 for example, you know Google missed the curve on the 1:02:59.720 --> 1:03:01.600 code agent thing, right. 1:03:01.880 --> 1:03:02.120 Uh. 1:03:02.240 --> 1:03:04.480 Some of it's you know, kind of other things Google. 1:03:05.920 --> 1:03:08.120 And look, I'll just so it just doesn't look like 1:03:08.160 --> 1:03:12.479 I'm Microsoft, you know, dumping on Google. Like Google missed 1:03:12.520 --> 1:03:16.960 a bunch of different productization things, so did Microsoft. Right. So, 1:03:16.960 --> 1:03:19.000 so it's like, you know, there's a bunch of stuff there, 1:03:19.040 --> 1:03:21.080 and so did open Ai. I mean, is there investing 1:03:21.120 --> 1:03:23.280 in Sora? Yes? First, you know, and I what is it? 1:03:23.320 --> 1:03:28.240 What was it? Banana something? I like it? No banana? Google? Uh? 1:03:28.440 --> 1:03:30.600 Meanwhile Anthropic sort of plug it along? 1:03:30.720 --> 1:03:35.040 Yeah no, No, last year and this year you're of entropic, right, right? 1:03:35.080 --> 1:03:37.160 What happened with mythos what did it mean to you? It? 1:03:37.200 --> 1:03:40.960 Was it overhyped? Was it a Dario once again? Doomskall? 1:03:41.200 --> 1:03:43.440 Yeah? Here I was? I mean, is it you know? 1:03:43.600 --> 1:03:46.960 Was it just the friction of just anyone's sort of 1:03:46.960 --> 1:03:50.040 pushing back against Petex's and Trump and so they need 1:03:50.080 --> 1:03:53.080 to be banished? Is it Elon making the calls in 1:03:53.120 --> 1:03:55.479 this competition in sex saying we want these sont bitch 1:03:55.480 --> 1:03:56.000 shut down? 1:03:56.040 --> 1:03:59.240 What is what does mythos represent to you? So mythos 1:03:59.400 --> 1:04:03.240 is I think both real and overhyped. Right, it's a weird. 1:04:03.280 --> 1:04:05.920 I don't think I've ever said that sentence before. And 1:04:06.080 --> 1:04:10.680 it's real because they tuned they had a coating sharp lead, 1:04:11.320 --> 1:04:16.160 they tuned it to cyber. That was a genius and 1:04:16.200 --> 1:04:19.840 genius for both. And they did the responsible thing of saying, hey, 1:04:20.160 --> 1:04:22.960 let's try to allow a bunch of different places, which 1:04:22.960 --> 1:04:25.960 your critical infrastructure, which are both within the kind of 1:04:26.040 --> 1:04:29.640 public sphere and also private shere banking, et cetera. Let's 1:04:29.680 --> 1:04:32.240 make sure that all of that is hardened early before 1:04:32.280 --> 1:04:34.920 this stuff is and we're doing a very responsible role 1:04:35.000 --> 1:04:37.920 out for all that. And that's the real And then 1:04:37.960 --> 1:04:41.320 the overhyped is you know, like you know it would 1:04:41.360 --> 1:04:44.040 be the end of the you know, it would just 1:04:44.080 --> 1:04:46.640 be catastrophe if it came out. And you're like, yeah, 1:04:46.680 --> 1:04:48.960 I don't think it's quite that. I just think it's 1:04:49.280 --> 1:04:52.160 like more train wrecks, right, Like, there would be some 1:04:52.200 --> 1:04:53.800 real costs, but I don't think it would be the 1:04:54.080 --> 1:04:59.200 you know, end of civilization or anything else. Now, what 1:04:59.320 --> 1:05:02.600 I think that happened is because you know, in thropics 1:05:02.600 --> 1:05:07.080 trying to be responsible, uh we as far as I 1:05:07.120 --> 1:05:10.280 understand from the outside looking at the administration, there's a 1:05:10.280 --> 1:05:14.080 lot of different people jockeying for control and the AI sphere, 1:05:14.120 --> 1:05:16.680 there's there's there's people who are like, oh, we hate 1:05:16.680 --> 1:05:19.520 all tech, we hate big tech. Let's just close all 1:05:19.560 --> 1:05:23.120 this AI stuff down. That's like banning, et cetera. There's 1:05:23.120 --> 1:05:25.160 people who are like, oh, this is a commercial thing, 1:05:25.680 --> 1:05:27.840 I should own it. It's like best end, et cetera. 1:05:28.520 --> 1:05:31.640 There's you know, sacks going there should be no controls here. 1:05:31.720 --> 1:05:34.240 The only way that AI becomes American intelligence is there's 1:05:34.320 --> 1:05:37.680 zero control, you know. And so like there's a melee 1:05:38.360 --> 1:05:42.720 within the UH, within the White House to which tends 1:05:42.760 --> 1:05:45.600 to really only the factions that tend to ultimately win 1:05:45.720 --> 1:05:47.600 is you know, is there a big payoff for someone 1:05:47.640 --> 1:05:51.959 in the clyptocracy, right, so, I think. And they don't 1:05:52.160 --> 1:05:54.480 like anthropic because they also like to be that we 1:05:54.600 --> 1:05:59.520 are the big you know, swinging you know, things right 1:05:59.760 --> 1:06:02.480 in and we don't like that they're not rolling over 1:06:02.560 --> 1:06:05.680 and going, you know, yes, sir, you're my master. And 1:06:05.720 --> 1:06:08.800 they're like, they're principled. And by the way, we live 1:06:08.800 --> 1:06:12.600 in a country by which uh, you know kind of uh, 1:06:12.800 --> 1:06:19.080 individuals are citizens, organizations, companies must follow the law. But 1:06:19.120 --> 1:06:21.200 the law is not I do whatever the fuck you 1:06:21.280 --> 1:06:25.480 tell me to do, right, it's we follow the law, yes, right, 1:06:25.560 --> 1:06:27.520 both and yes yes, and so. 1:06:27.720 --> 1:06:31.120 The law, well, we'll get to the role of God later, yes, exactly. 1:06:31.640 --> 1:06:34.280 And so so their principle about that, and that's what 1:06:34.320 --> 1:06:36.680 they were trying to hold up to and what they 1:06:36.680 --> 1:06:38.479 were doing, and it was like, no, no, you must 1:06:38.520 --> 1:06:40.600 do what we tell you to do. It's like, no, 1:06:40.640 --> 1:06:44.680 not necessarily, right, you know. And so so it's like, ah, 1:06:44.800 --> 1:06:48.320 we have an option to show them whose boss, right, right, 1:06:48.440 --> 1:06:51.640 You're like, ah, I don't think that's that, by the way, Frankly, 1:06:51.680 --> 1:06:55.600 I think that's an American We should be celebrating achievements 1:06:55.600 --> 1:06:57.720 of Americans. Of things that we do and so worth 1:06:58.000 --> 1:06:59.880 and it's like to say, no, no, you must be 1:07:00.080 --> 1:07:05.360 following hair leader's commands. Whoever hair leader is, whether it's 1:07:05.400 --> 1:07:08.720 a you know, uh, you know, uh, left wing version, 1:07:08.800 --> 1:07:11.680 right wing version, whatever it is, Yes, it's like no, no, no, 1:07:11.760 --> 1:07:14.680 it's like we follow a rule of law together. There 1:07:14.680 --> 1:07:14.960 you go. 1:07:16.560 --> 1:07:20.960 So Sam took advantage of this from a competitive perspective 1:07:21.000 --> 1:07:22.520 at open AI and said, we're good. 1:07:22.840 --> 1:07:25.840 Yeah, what did you make of that? I wish you'd 1:07:25.840 --> 1:07:30.320 called me beforehand. Yes, it was a mistake. It didn't 1:07:30.360 --> 1:07:31.360 didn't go over well. 1:07:31.760 --> 1:07:35.160 Yeah, well so maybe Trump folks did. 1:07:35.200 --> 1:07:37.480 I haven't talked to Sam about this yet, partially because 1:07:37.520 --> 1:07:39.080 it all happened very quickly, and then I was like, 1:07:39.120 --> 1:07:41.280 and then it happened at that point showing up and 1:07:41.320 --> 1:07:43.360 saying I wouldn't have done this. It's like not very 1:07:43.360 --> 1:07:47.840 constructive and helpful, you know. I undoubtedly part of what 1:07:47.880 --> 1:07:51.040 Sam's trying to say. Look, if the if the good 1:07:51.120 --> 1:07:54.480 principled people like you know, anthropic and open ay bowed, 1:07:55.040 --> 1:07:57.920 then it's only left to the unprincipled people like XAI. 1:07:58.760 --> 1:08:01.960 I get it. It's a challenge issue. It's not straightforward, okay, 1:08:02.200 --> 1:08:04.640 but this would be a would have been a very 1:08:04.680 --> 1:08:08.040 good chance to say no, no, all of us principled 1:08:08.080 --> 1:08:11.000 companies should stand together and we should sort this of 1:08:11.080 --> 1:08:14.960 it all together, right, And so we're like, we're not 1:08:15.000 --> 1:08:18.719 going to jump in. We also think these principles. And 1:08:18.760 --> 1:08:21.519 what happened is he quickly deluded himself as like, oh, 1:08:21.560 --> 1:08:24.519 this is solvable technically. It's like, no, the Anthropic people 1:08:24.560 --> 1:08:27.720 are good technically too. There's from Open AI, and he 1:08:27.800 --> 1:08:30.280 was oh, shit, that doesn't work. Yeah. Yeah, that's the 1:08:30.320 --> 1:08:32.160 reason why Anthropic was going, We're not going to do 1:08:32.200 --> 1:08:36.320 it this way, right, And so it's like and you know, 1:08:36.880 --> 1:08:39.360 the part of what happens is the competition gets so 1:08:39.479 --> 1:08:44.040 ferocious that it's like the ah, I'm just communien. It's like, no, no, 1:08:44.280 --> 1:08:47.880 there are some places you put the competition aside, and 1:08:48.240 --> 1:08:52.040 when it's humanity and society, you put the competition aside. 1:08:53.160 --> 1:08:56.559 What they're not putting aside at Open AI is this 1:08:56.680 --> 1:08:57.680 notion of AI. 1:08:57.640 --> 1:08:58.719 Into the physical space. 1:08:58.760 --> 1:09:03.320 They're actually trying to lean into that partnerships with Johnny 1:09:03.360 --> 1:09:08.120 and others, and that gets even to what Elon's doing 1:09:08.200 --> 1:09:11.880 and Dexterity robots. The robots are coming physical AI we're 1:09:11.880 --> 1:09:16.360 seeing it manifest and you know, driverless cars, driverless planes, 1:09:16.439 --> 1:09:20.360 or flightless planes or pilotless planes shortly or at least 1:09:20.360 --> 1:09:24.200 flying cars in the vernacular of the Jetsons, which is interesting. 1:09:24.200 --> 1:09:26.120 They're doing a reboot of the Jetsons. Seems to make 1:09:26.160 --> 1:09:28.720 some sense in this world they were living. But what 1:09:28.840 --> 1:09:32.679 is that? I suspect it'll be a little bit more 1:09:32.760 --> 1:09:35.559 mixed than the Jetsons, just in the current cultural context. 1:09:36.000 --> 1:09:39.120 I suggest you're right, or believe you're right. So what 1:09:39.320 --> 1:09:41.599 is the physical AI? I mean, we could talk about 1:09:41.680 --> 1:09:43.320 robots as a separate thing, but what do you think 1:09:43.320 --> 1:09:43.920 what I mean? 1:09:44.240 --> 1:09:44.680 I don't know. 1:09:44.720 --> 1:09:48.840 What do you think where Sam's going with with open 1:09:48.880 --> 1:09:50.520 AI and the partners. 1:09:50.200 --> 1:09:51.360 With Johnny Ivy and others. 1:09:51.479 --> 1:09:55.640 In terms of designing some reedy revolutionary there's sort of 1:09:55.680 --> 1:09:59.720 an Apple esque, you know, Steve Jobs, Johnny sort of. 1:09:59.760 --> 1:10:02.879 This is, you know, imagining the future without the constraints 1:10:02.920 --> 1:10:05.000 of what you already know a race or mania, forget 1:10:05.000 --> 1:10:07.800 what you already know, design a project, a product for 1:10:07.840 --> 1:10:10.160 the for the AI agent. It's not constrained by the 1:10:10.200 --> 1:10:11.000 thinking of the past. 1:10:11.680 --> 1:10:15.720 So just like within a small number of years, none 1:10:15.760 --> 1:10:18.720 of us will be doing anything that's like knowledge or 1:10:18.800 --> 1:10:22.559 information work without having multiple AI agents that we are 1:10:22.560 --> 1:10:25.479 managing a workflow and so doing and that's small and 1:10:26.200 --> 1:10:29.280 five maybe right, Like you know, there's no longer such 1:10:29.280 --> 1:10:32.000 a thing as a human individual contributor. There's a human 1:10:32.040 --> 1:10:34.639 manager of agents maybe working on a team with other 1:10:34.720 --> 1:10:37.240 humans managing agents and all the rest and all the 1:10:37.439 --> 1:10:41.880 you know, and there's what's happening. That's an amazing transformation. 1:10:44.439 --> 1:10:48.360 There will be within a small number of years some 1:10:48.520 --> 1:10:55.519 amazing AI bringing into the work into a workplace. Will 1:10:55.520 --> 1:10:58.640 it be the kind of Johnny you know, reimagination of 1:10:58.680 --> 1:11:01.800 the phone, et cetera kind of thing. Will it be 1:11:02.960 --> 1:11:09.000 the rebirth of manufacturing in America through robotics and all 1:11:09.040 --> 1:11:12.680 the rest. Will it be autonomous vehicles which you know 1:11:12.760 --> 1:11:19.960 we'll call will bring enormous like health savings, you know, deaths, 1:11:20.320 --> 1:11:24.439 other kinds of things enormous. And by the way, there's 1:11:24.479 --> 1:11:28.360 obviously job transitions. Although by the way, like we're short 1:11:28.439 --> 1:11:29.920 a lot of truck drivers. 1:11:29.840 --> 1:11:33.160 Yeah, which is remarkably because it hasn't come yet. 1:11:33.240 --> 1:11:36.599 It's scale. It's coming, right, yes, yeah, But by the way, 1:11:36.680 --> 1:11:41.280 even if all truck manufacturers started manufacturing only autonomous trucks today, 1:11:41.680 --> 1:11:44.240 it's at least ten years before there is over half 1:11:44.280 --> 1:11:46.519 of the trucks in the road, or autonomous drugs. Right. 1:11:46.560 --> 1:11:49.880 So it's like, so there's even there's an adjustment, right, 1:11:50.240 --> 1:11:54.519 and so so all the stuff and we want it, right, 1:11:54.560 --> 1:11:56.160 I get. It's like people say, well, I don't want disruption, 1:11:56.240 --> 1:11:57.960 I want disruption of what I. 1:11:57.600 --> 1:12:01.760 Want robots, I want my humanoid Robut I do, yes, actually. 1:12:01.680 --> 1:12:04.280 You do, right. It doesn't mean you want every different 1:12:04.360 --> 1:12:07.439 version of them, right, but like, for example, like take 1:12:07.479 --> 1:12:12.080 autonomous vehicles, like like, we have over forty thousand deaths 1:12:12.680 --> 1:12:16.920 per year. That doesn't count injuries, maiming, et cetera, et cetera, Right, 1:12:17.280 --> 1:12:21.120 Like that's a cost in human lives. What's more, you go, well, 1:12:21.200 --> 1:12:23.960 you care about environment? Well, if you can actually in 1:12:24.000 --> 1:12:27.880 fact have the grid manage all the more efficiently massive 1:12:28.000 --> 1:12:30.599 environmental impact, right, so you want all that And it's 1:12:30.600 --> 1:12:32.400 like yes, And by the way, you say, well, what 1:12:32.439 --> 1:12:34.720 happens the truck driver jobs? Like, well, one, not a 1:12:34.760 --> 1:12:36.559 lot of people doing them. They hate the fucking jobs. 1:12:37.000 --> 1:12:40.680 And then two, yes, the central thing we should be 1:12:40.720 --> 1:12:44.000 doing and this age of AI revolution is how do 1:12:44.080 --> 1:12:48.519 we help figure out large swath of people, like get 1:12:48.600 --> 1:12:52.080 new kinds of jobs, whether it's entrepreneurial new starts, whether 1:12:52.160 --> 1:12:54.880 it's things that we're doing with society, whether it's like 1:12:55.400 --> 1:12:57.680 all of that stuff. We need to lean in heavily too, 1:12:57.920 --> 1:13:01.600 because the jobs will be changing. And most people say, legitimately, 1:13:02.560 --> 1:13:04.559 I like my job. I don't want it to change, 1:13:04.600 --> 1:13:09.880 and you're like, yeah, it happens, right, and we'll help, right. 1:13:10.320 --> 1:13:13.439 But that's that's I think how it so much of 1:13:13.479 --> 1:13:14.120 the focus. 1:13:14.200 --> 1:13:18.240 And you, as you're speaking, got me thinking about in 1:13:18.280 --> 1:13:21.680 your two AI companies that you've that you've founded, co 1:13:21.760 --> 1:13:25.599 founded yea, not all those others. I think everyone we've named, 1:13:25.640 --> 1:13:29.200 you've you've invested in U. We can get to that 1:13:29.560 --> 1:13:33.519 in a minute, but this so much of our time 1:13:33.560 --> 1:13:35.400 and energy. I was talking to Ezra Klein about this 1:13:35.840 --> 1:13:38.880 and back east a week or two ago, and he said, 1:13:38.880 --> 1:13:41.760 be good to mix in I'm paraphrasing him, and I 1:13:41.880 --> 1:13:44.320 want to talk out of school some of the good 1:13:44.360 --> 1:13:47.559 stuff along the lines of what you now are sprinkling 1:13:47.600 --> 1:13:50.040 in and you're you're investing very directly just in the 1:13:50.120 --> 1:13:52.599 area that we you know, you talked about twenty thirty 1:13:52.640 --> 1:13:55.440 years ago. People were focused on the issue of breakthroughs 1:13:55.560 --> 1:13:58.920 in medicine. Yes, breakthroughs. I mean I can live longer, 1:13:59.040 --> 1:14:02.920 healthier life. So I mean, where are we Let's talk. 1:14:03.000 --> 1:14:05.840 Let's now paint a more positive picture of what AI 1:14:05.960 --> 1:14:10.200 can do for good for society, not just for Elon. 1:14:10.320 --> 1:14:12.440 So he's worth six trillion. 1:14:12.120 --> 1:14:15.320 Dollars by the time my daughter graduates college. 1:14:15.520 --> 1:14:20.400 Exactly, So Manasi. So director Muker ge Ujol Singh and 1:14:20.479 --> 1:14:22.679 I have co founded and the idea is to create 1:14:22.720 --> 1:14:26.960 a drug discovery factory with AI. And it's the best 1:14:26.960 --> 1:14:29.920 shot I think we have seen ever in human history 1:14:30.200 --> 1:14:32.920 for doing a lot of cancer curing and a bunch 1:14:32.960 --> 1:14:36.520 of other things too. Because AI, it's like a search problem. 1:14:36.920 --> 1:14:40.639 Biology is more complicated than all of his other shit. Right, 1:14:40.760 --> 1:14:44.080 It's like he said, well, you know, there's there's more 1:14:44.120 --> 1:14:46.800 moves and go than there's atoms in the universe, And yeah, 1:14:46.960 --> 1:14:52.880 goes a child's simplicity tool relative biology. But now that 1:14:52.880 --> 1:14:55.200 we've got scale compute, it's like, Okay, what's the thing 1:14:55.960 --> 1:15:01.519 that is going wrong with leukemia? Can we something that 1:15:02.040 --> 1:15:05.479 allows us to monitor stuff early, allows us to figure 1:15:05.520 --> 1:15:09.240 out what might be going wrong and something that might 1:15:09.280 --> 1:15:12.000 be an easy therapeutic that might be as simple as 1:15:12.000 --> 1:15:15.760 an injection or a pill. Because you create a small molecule, 1:15:16.120 --> 1:15:21.240 an antibody, a protein, et cetera, that combined with the 1:15:22.680 --> 1:15:25.320 you know, kind of the thing that's going wrong and 1:15:25.520 --> 1:15:31.000 disable the bad thing and not have serious toxic side effects. 1:15:31.640 --> 1:15:34.880 That's a difficult charch problem. And right now what we 1:15:35.000 --> 1:15:36.720 have is we have And by the way, I think 1:15:36.760 --> 1:15:43.080 we'll continue to have genius clinician PhDs researchers doing stuff. 1:15:43.120 --> 1:15:45.840 I don't think it takes away their job, but we 1:15:45.920 --> 1:15:48.720 have them like it's like they're doing all the computation 1:15:48.840 --> 1:15:51.519 by hand and they're trying to be brilliant and figure 1:15:51.520 --> 1:15:54.120 out something. So like figuring this out takes them a 1:15:54.240 --> 1:15:57.120 decade to have a maybe I've got I started a 1:15:57.160 --> 1:16:00.479 decade and I got one maybe right, Well, I can 1:16:00.560 --> 1:16:05.240 now go all right, here are like I did today's compute, 1:16:05.520 --> 1:16:09.040 I generated one hundred maybees. Let's sort through which of 1:16:09.080 --> 1:16:11.840 these things might be worth looking at more, Which are 1:16:12.000 --> 1:16:15.120 I should earn it more, et cetera, And and and 1:16:15.120 --> 1:16:17.640 and how do we run that through the entire process 1:16:18.000 --> 1:16:19.800 by which we do, of course we want to do 1:16:19.840 --> 1:16:22.880 safety checking and so forth, and is our theory that 1:16:22.960 --> 1:16:27.120 it is is non toxic. Okay, we've we've included in 1:16:27.160 --> 1:16:30.160 our in our search and how the air works. But 1:16:30.240 --> 1:16:32.880 let's test it, right, and let's run through it. Like 1:16:32.960 --> 1:16:35.200 we should have that because that's part of what makes 1:16:35.200 --> 1:16:38.640 our medicine system. Like we have the envy of the 1:16:38.680 --> 1:16:44.479 world in the pre RFK junior FDA, you know, kind 1:16:44.479 --> 1:16:49.640 of like of of like gold plated medicine. Right, So 1:16:49.640 --> 1:16:51.960 when the reasons like if you're if if it's accepted here, 1:16:52.040 --> 1:16:57.320 it's accepted everywhere, right, and and let's let's let's keep 1:16:57.360 --> 1:17:00.920 our rigorous standards. Maybe we could figure out how to 1:17:00.920 --> 1:17:02.960 make it more efficient in various ways. I think that's 1:17:03.000 --> 1:17:07.439 a good thing to do. But and then deliver more medicines. 1:17:07.760 --> 1:17:09.200 And by the way, this is part of like the 1:17:09.240 --> 1:17:12.559 AI for humanity. Is if you said, like and you know, 1:17:12.640 --> 1:17:16.120 I don't know, like what I will categorically assert is 1:17:16.520 --> 1:17:20.240 AI has the best shot in human history of curing 1:17:20.280 --> 1:17:25.599 all cancer. Right, Like if we if we can deliver 1:17:25.720 --> 1:17:29.040 even our percentage of that, right, that's huge. 1:17:28.760 --> 1:17:31.360 Have we though, I mean, we've been saying this for 1:17:31.400 --> 1:17:34.439 a few years and there's exponent I mean, I feel 1:17:34.479 --> 1:17:38.439 like AI's exponent. I mean, I know, we're always just 1:17:38.600 --> 1:17:42.080 right around the corner here, we are just fusions. 1:17:41.640 --> 1:17:42.320 Just a few weeks. 1:17:42.320 --> 1:17:45.240 It's it's like, you know, it's like the Iranians are 1:17:45.280 --> 1:17:47.560 just you know, they're right there with fusion, fusion a 1:17:47.640 --> 1:17:48.479 couple of weeks away. 1:17:48.560 --> 1:17:54.479 Yeah, whatever, So where are we? So so at at 1:17:54.600 --> 1:17:57.679 Mansi we have we have some of the world's brightest 1:17:57.680 --> 1:18:01.920 computational chemists and some of the chemistry that the AI 1:18:02.040 --> 1:18:05.240 has been saying, how about this. They're like, that's really interesting, 1:18:06.040 --> 1:18:08.600 that might work. I've never seen that before, and that 1:18:08.680 --> 1:18:11.240 gets exciting. Yeah, and we're calling this to move thirty 1:18:11.280 --> 1:18:15.799 seven off alpha go of we're getting maybe move thirty 1:18:15.800 --> 1:18:19.920 seven chemistry. Right, So it's a very interesting like it's like, 1:18:20.680 --> 1:18:22.519 that's interesting, and how do. 1:18:22.520 --> 1:18:24.519 We socialize it? I mean, that was the point Ezrah 1:18:24.600 --> 1:18:26.800 was making to me. It's one thing again just in 1:18:26.880 --> 1:18:31.200 the hands of you, sir, God bless you, rather you 1:18:31.320 --> 1:18:34.000 than these others. But the point being, how does you 1:18:34.000 --> 1:18:38.120 know it's it's a compute for you know, the UC 1:18:38.320 --> 1:18:42.519 system and the CSUS and for forty million Americans in California, 1:18:42.560 --> 1:18:45.880 for three hundred and fifty million Americans for society written 1:18:45.920 --> 1:18:49.600 large so so it's not about modernization. It's not just 1:18:49.640 --> 1:18:52.680 about the commercialization in the context of an ROI that 1:18:52.920 --> 1:18:57.080 is in numeric and I know there's the sort of 1:18:57.080 --> 1:19:00.479 free enterprise case that that is. You know, we don't 1:19:00.479 --> 1:19:02.519 even get it at the larger philosophical point. 1:19:03.040 --> 1:19:05.400 Well, one of the things I think it's important for 1:19:05.400 --> 1:19:07.439 everyone to think about is we don't have the AI 1:19:07.479 --> 1:19:12.599 revolution except through the commercial sector. The capabilities of doing 1:19:12.680 --> 1:19:15.240 it in any other sector than the commercial sector do 1:19:15.280 --> 1:19:18.280 not exist. Because what you need is you need to 1:19:18.320 --> 1:19:23.599 be able to apply scale teams with scale resources, and 1:19:23.640 --> 1:19:26.160 like scale teams I mean thousands of people, tens of 1:19:26.160 --> 1:19:30.480 thousands of people, scale resources billions, two hundreds of billions 1:19:30.520 --> 1:19:34.679 in risk environment where a lot of this will fail 1:19:35.160 --> 1:19:38.080 as you're going, no other sector other than the commercial 1:19:38.120 --> 1:19:41.920 sector can do it. And that's because people go, well, sure, 1:19:41.960 --> 1:19:44.599 I'll build a billion dollars here that I might lose, right, 1:19:44.880 --> 1:19:47.720 because I'm not going to then be castigated for it 1:19:47.800 --> 1:19:49.599 or else because it's like, look it's my billion dollars, 1:19:49.640 --> 1:19:51.559 I'm trying to do it, etc. And that's part of 1:19:51.560 --> 1:19:53.720 what gets to the scale compute, scale data centers and 1:19:53.720 --> 1:19:57.080 all the rest now, So we when we think about 1:19:57.080 --> 1:19:59.120 this is we say, well, how do we shape it? 1:20:00.680 --> 1:20:02.960 Back to some of your earlier questions about like, well, 1:20:03.000 --> 1:20:05.719 what should you know, folks in your chair be doing? 1:20:06.640 --> 1:20:09.960 Like what we want in your conversation with ISRA, what 1:20:10.000 --> 1:20:15.360 we want in short order is at minimum three assistants 1:20:16.200 --> 1:20:20.120 given to every citizen, state, country, et cetera. One medical, 1:20:20.240 --> 1:20:24.280 one legal, one educational. And we want them to be 1:20:24.400 --> 1:20:28.719 very competent, and we want them to be essentially equivalently free, 1:20:29.240 --> 1:20:32.679 no matter if it's like a low cost does a matter, 1:20:32.720 --> 1:20:35.080 if it's like ad subsidized, a matter of like whatever, 1:20:35.840 --> 1:20:40.360 And it can be done without the state paying anything. 1:20:40.960 --> 1:20:45.120 Because if you go to say Google, Microsoft, Open AI 1:20:45.439 --> 1:20:50.360 and thropic and you say, look, if you're willing to 1:20:50.439 --> 1:20:54.360 build this on what you're doing, what would you want 1:20:54.400 --> 1:20:58.439 from us that would make it worth your while to 1:20:58.560 --> 1:21:01.320 do it? Because, by the way, the money you'd get 1:21:01.320 --> 1:21:03.400 from us, you don't care about relatively all the omeerning 1:21:03.439 --> 1:21:06.040 you're getting like just being paid. We don't have to 1:21:06.040 --> 1:21:08.519 spend public money on this. What do you want from us? 1:21:08.520 --> 1:21:12.720 They might say, well, you know, we got like we've 1:21:12.760 --> 1:21:15.400 got some permitting problems and these three data centers and say, well, 1:21:15.479 --> 1:21:17.880 as long as you clear with the local community jobs 1:21:17.880 --> 1:21:21.000 electricity sort will help you with your permitting problems if 1:21:21.040 --> 1:21:24.920 you do this right, like or oh well, look, we 1:21:24.920 --> 1:21:27.040 would love to be in the healthcare business, but like, 1:21:27.120 --> 1:21:30.120 the medical liability stuff is so intense. Could you give 1:21:30.200 --> 1:21:34.599 us a channel of safe harbor that could be by 1:21:34.600 --> 1:21:37.080 an independent review committee that you set up from the 1:21:37.720 --> 1:21:42.920 amazing hospital system in California and say, hey, give us 1:21:42.920 --> 1:21:45.680 a parameters of safe harbor to operate. And if you 1:21:45.720 --> 1:21:47.559 give that, then we'll be learning and we'll be building 1:21:47.600 --> 1:21:50.439 an industry off this great and then we will provide 1:21:50.479 --> 1:21:54.439 a medical assistant that's twenty four to seven available to 1:21:54.680 --> 1:21:58.800 every citizen of California. May I prefer the US, but 1:21:58.880 --> 1:22:01.879 we're just sitting here in californ Are you fine anything 1:22:01.880 --> 1:22:06.040 of that, because then, by the way, I have access 1:22:06.040 --> 1:22:08.400 to this kind of medical thing of twenty four to seven, 1:22:08.479 --> 1:22:10.840 I can call a doctor and get an answer for 1:22:10.920 --> 1:22:14.760 something I need. Very few people have that, right right, 1:22:15.200 --> 1:22:17.840 I would love it if every single person had it 1:22:18.000 --> 1:22:21.040 for their kids, for their partners, for their grandparents, for 1:22:21.120 --> 1:22:23.840 their family members, for their friends, et cetera. And by 1:22:23.880 --> 1:22:28.400 the way, these things can give really good medical advice. 1:22:28.439 --> 1:22:30.400 No medical advice is perfect, but they can give really 1:22:30.439 --> 1:22:33.360 good medical advice. So there's medical advice. And so it's 1:22:33.400 --> 1:22:36.320 like take them the kind of medical thing that only 1:22:36.360 --> 1:22:40.280 the ultra wealthy have access to and make it democratically 1:22:40.320 --> 1:22:47.920 available like every citizen. Legal assistant, right, Okay, currently, like 1:22:47.920 --> 1:22:52.960 like law law is expensive, right, and so currently like 1:22:53.000 --> 1:22:55.400 when a guy, when a person's kind of going into 1:22:55.680 --> 1:22:59.000 like signing a rental contract or an employment contractor anything else, 1:23:00.840 --> 1:23:04.400 most people can't afford lawyers, right, and I'm like, I 1:23:04.439 --> 1:23:09.400 trust that it probably works out. It's okay, et cetera. Right, Well, 1:23:10.040 --> 1:23:14.080 legal assistant, like it will help you with your rights, 1:23:14.120 --> 1:23:16.680 with what goes on with with how to interface this, 1:23:17.320 --> 1:23:20.600 Like that's why we have these laws to help protect you. 1:23:21.280 --> 1:23:24.880 Now we have an agent that can help navigate that 1:23:25.560 --> 1:23:28.000 and say we want to make sure that's provided to 1:23:28.160 --> 1:23:32.080 every citizen. Nice, right. And then education, same thing, and 1:23:32.120 --> 1:23:33.240 they say they're with the education. 1:23:33.680 --> 1:23:38.760 So we talk about democratization and and you know, I've 1:23:38.880 --> 1:23:40.960 had a strong theory that it's the same fight that 1:23:41.040 --> 1:23:43.880 if order to save democracy, which I've been particularly passionate 1:23:43.920 --> 1:23:47.599 about Prop fifty redistricting and pushing back against what's happening 1:23:47.600 --> 1:23:51.200 in Washington, DC, that we have to democratize the economy, 1:23:51.680 --> 1:23:54.360 that this notion again of just concentrated wealth. I'm joking 1:23:54.360 --> 1:23:57.200 about the six billion trillion dollars. I mean, I think 1:23:57.240 --> 1:24:00.600 it's realistic. Yeah, uh, you know, maybe you know my 1:24:00.680 --> 1:24:05.240 oldest daughter graduation, but certainly my youngest son. That we'll 1:24:05.240 --> 1:24:07.920 see that you already have ten percent of people on 1:24:08.000 --> 1:24:09.719 two thirds of wealth. You have a thirty year old's 1:24:09.760 --> 1:24:11.880 not doing better than his or her parents for the 1:24:11.880 --> 1:24:15.439 first time in American history. There's just growing anxiety between 1:24:15.439 --> 1:24:17.680 the imbalance between the rich and the poor. You've got 1:24:17.680 --> 1:24:21.639 twenty states, it's still seven dollars twenty five cent minimum wage, 1:24:21.680 --> 1:24:24.040 people working full times at ending up on welfare. I 1:24:24.080 --> 1:24:26.840 talk about corporate subsidies, so those corporations are getting benefit 1:24:26.880 --> 1:24:31.000 of that. You talked in terms you use the word 1:24:31.040 --> 1:24:34.599 coletocracy that a lot of people are using right now. 1:24:35.040 --> 1:24:37.679 And I talked about regulatory capture, and I talked about 1:24:37.800 --> 1:24:40.840 that concentration of wealth ultimately becomes concentration of political power, 1:24:40.840 --> 1:24:43.559 et cetera. What do you make of the world we're 1:24:43.560 --> 1:24:45.960 living in today? What do you make of the state 1:24:46.479 --> 1:24:49.439 of our union in relationship to all of this. 1:24:51.200 --> 1:24:59.360 Well, you know, I always when a new administration kind 1:24:59.360 --> 1:25:02.120 of comes in the power, even when I disagree intensely 1:25:02.200 --> 1:25:05.360 campaign and I'm quiet initially because I want them to 1:25:05.360 --> 1:25:09.400 be successful. We want I agree, right, it's like we 1:25:09.439 --> 1:25:17.240 want for society for citizens. And it's just like like 1:25:17.439 --> 1:25:24.240 the level of like call it Chernobyl squared catastrophe is 1:25:24.360 --> 1:25:28.439 just huge. It's like, no one has a theory that 1:25:28.520 --> 1:25:34.840 tariffs lead to better economics for your average citizen. Well, yeah, 1:25:35.360 --> 1:25:40.160 maybe he doesn't buy eggs and gasoline, you know, and 1:25:40.240 --> 1:25:43.720 so uh, you know, no one who understands how economics 1:25:43.720 --> 1:25:47.160 and economies work, yes, right, and so, and it just 1:25:47.320 --> 1:25:48.880 it just goes down the list, and then you get 1:25:48.920 --> 1:25:53.080 to the like like the absurdity of like maybe that 1:25:53.280 --> 1:25:57.120 like the iconic one is uh, you know, when Trump's 1:25:57.160 --> 1:26:02.160 being given the plane, even Laura or leaves the leaves 1:26:02.160 --> 1:26:04.680 the plane, leaves the boat. No, no, don't accept that. 1:26:04.960 --> 1:26:09.200 By the way, we are a huge investor in that plane. 1:26:09.240 --> 1:26:11.240 Not just the four a million dollars the Gutari government 1:26:11.280 --> 1:26:15.160 gave to Trump, but the nine hundred almost one billion 1:26:15.240 --> 1:26:17.639 dollars in the Pentagon budget. 1:26:17.680 --> 1:26:18.560 To retrofit. 1:26:18.720 --> 1:26:22.600 It was also appropriated, and that is a plane he 1:26:22.680 --> 1:26:23.639 will take with him. 1:26:23.760 --> 1:26:27.639 Yes, Yes, to the foundation he will take with him. Yes, yes, exactly. 1:26:27.720 --> 1:26:32.479 So like it just like it's just it's it's it's 1:26:32.720 --> 1:26:36.360 not just I think, frankly illegal, but it's gross and 1:26:36.400 --> 1:26:39.840 non American, right, I mean, it's not It's like, what 1:26:39.880 --> 1:26:44.840 we stand for is not the rip off everything that 1:26:44.880 --> 1:26:48.280 you can out of the public offers to benefit yourself. 1:26:48.400 --> 1:26:51.040 But that's happening. And these are your old friends. Some 1:26:51.080 --> 1:26:52.320 of these were my old friends. 1:26:52.439 --> 1:26:54.760 Yeah, I mean I knew some of these guys. When 1:26:55.520 --> 1:26:58.439 they seem to be completely indulgent in us, it's not 1:26:58.520 --> 1:27:02.840 just showing up. It's it's they're the beneficiaries all. 1:27:02.720 --> 1:27:04.840 This, Like it is. The thing I mentioned earlier is like, 1:27:05.240 --> 1:27:07.840 you know, Elon acknowledges that the XAI stoff is a 1:27:07.840 --> 1:27:10.639 complete train wreck catastrophe, and you're like, okay, well hand 1:27:10.640 --> 1:27:13.840 back your government contracts. That would be the honorable thing 1:27:13.880 --> 1:27:16.439 to do. And by the way, I'm you know, that's 1:27:16.479 --> 1:27:21.000 against my own you know, very small shareholder and small with. 1:27:21.400 --> 1:27:23.640 Large is not small to the rest of us. But 1:27:23.680 --> 1:27:25.840 I appreciate your point, yes, but why the hell are 1:27:25.880 --> 1:27:28.120 they doing. I mean, seriously, it's not just Elon, It's 1:27:28.160 --> 1:27:31.040 it's all these I mean, I've got knee pads right 1:27:31.080 --> 1:27:32.639 there for sale on my Patriots sight. 1:27:32.720 --> 1:27:34.040 For a damn reason, I had to go. 1:27:34.280 --> 1:27:36.519 I dropped your note. I love this, God bless you, man. 1:27:36.560 --> 1:27:39.080 I mean not everyone does. But it wasn't just for 1:27:39.240 --> 1:27:41.519 the CEOs and the brand names. But it's for you know, 1:27:41.720 --> 1:27:44.880 law firms talking about law. It's about the universities that 1:27:44.880 --> 1:27:47.559 we're selling out. It's about you know, all these you 1:27:47.560 --> 1:27:50.559 know folks that you used to count on selling their 1:27:50.600 --> 1:27:51.679 soul to get the deal. 1:27:52.160 --> 1:27:53.880 I don't know how these people look at themselves in 1:27:53.880 --> 1:27:56.800 the mirror. I mean it's like, look, it's what's the 1:27:56.840 --> 1:28:02.280 price of your honor, your integrity? Yours is crazy? Right like? 1:28:02.800 --> 1:28:06.360 And and look, if you're a citizen that has any 1:28:06.640 --> 1:28:09.000 you know, power, which basically is all of these people, 1:28:09.040 --> 1:28:12.959 including myself, state of your principles, some of the most. 1:28:12.760 --> 1:28:17.320 Powerful people in the world, and they're falling prey to 1:28:17.360 --> 1:28:18.360 this bullshit and. 1:28:19.479 --> 1:28:22.800 They're rationalizing it. Oh, the the Dems would be worse. 1:28:22.840 --> 1:28:27.000 And you're like, in what planet right like like, like 1:28:27.280 --> 1:28:30.400 is the sky purple where you live? I mean what like, 1:28:30.520 --> 1:28:34.480 what's what what's going on? It's probably red the the 1:28:34.560 --> 1:28:38.040 you know, and so uh, you know, it's kind of 1:28:38.040 --> 1:28:42.080 the the question of like, how do you defend this stuff? 1:28:42.320 --> 1:28:47.040 I mean, it's it's it's it's like, for example, the 1:28:47.080 --> 1:28:54.240 Iranian war will have massive impact on your average American citizen. 1:28:54.880 --> 1:28:58.120 You know, even as Homos opens, the ships haven't been 1:28:58.280 --> 1:29:02.400 haven't been going for you know, months. We're not like 1:29:02.560 --> 1:29:05.559 I appreciate the fact that the market's like, oh, really 1:29:05.600 --> 1:29:07.880 hopeful it's back and we're gonna lower lower the price 1:29:07.880 --> 1:29:10.799 of oil futures. This will work through. 1:29:10.680 --> 1:29:12.479 Yeah, I mean, whether there's some estimates or where you 1:29:12.840 --> 1:29:15.240 look at the total costs over trillion dollars, not the 1:29:15.360 --> 1:29:18.040 fifty billion. Yes, it's the direct cost the costs that 1:29:18.080 --> 1:29:20.599 have been born, yes, globally, yes, all the. 1:29:20.560 --> 1:29:24.240 Rest of us. And that's to every American citizen, right, 1:29:24.439 --> 1:29:28.960 And then the notion of oh well, because like the 1:29:28.960 --> 1:29:33.479 classic one is a all apologies excepted because I know 1:29:33.560 --> 1:29:36.479 this is not true of you, you know, and and 1:29:36.520 --> 1:29:39.120 actually many politicians, but they got all politicians are crop 1:29:39.200 --> 1:29:42.479 Trump's just more and more straightforward, right, and you're like. 1:29:43.920 --> 1:29:46.000 No, he's gonna he does it openly. 1:29:46.240 --> 1:29:47.519 Yes, at least seeson Man. 1:29:47.600 --> 1:29:49.400 That's he's the most transparent. 1:29:51.640 --> 1:29:54.040 Everyone was getting plained. He's just the first one who's 1:29:54.040 --> 1:29:57.320 acknowledging it's no, that's not the case. Not the case, right, 1:29:57.439 --> 1:29:59.840 not the case and so and by the way, you 1:29:59.840 --> 1:30:06.519 know someone who says, hey, uh, you like whatever politician acts, Oh, 1:30:06.640 --> 1:30:10.120 you misreported that. You probably should have said, hey, this 1:30:10.200 --> 1:30:15.160 weekend was a gift. Okay, small dollars. What do you 1:30:15.240 --> 1:30:19.320 think that corruption like like like like people think about it. 1:30:19.520 --> 1:30:21.639 Would you have been bought off by that nick? No, 1:30:21.840 --> 1:30:26.240 it was a mistake. Okay, these things can happen. Someone 1:30:26.280 --> 1:30:31.439 gets you a billion dollars in crypto, Yeah, yes, you're 1:30:31.479 --> 1:30:32.840 bought period. Yeah. 1:30:32.920 --> 1:30:35.000 Yeah, well we get to the UAE and then the 1:30:35.000 --> 1:30:37.599 fact they got high valued chips in yes, turn things 1:30:37.600 --> 1:30:40.960 that were denied in the previous administration exactly after we're 1:30:41.000 --> 1:30:42.240 a liberty financial deal. 1:30:42.439 --> 1:30:43.679 Yes, and all that, and. 1:30:43.600 --> 1:30:45.719 How well I can go down to litany a list, 1:30:45.960 --> 1:30:48.000 including just the usc fight and how it was paid, 1:30:48.080 --> 1:30:51.679 bonuses were paid in the Trump back crypto exactly. Can't 1:30:51.680 --> 1:30:54.720 make this stuff up. Also, you can't make up the 1:30:54.720 --> 1:30:57.759 fact that you know you must have teld me the truth. 1:30:58.040 --> 1:31:01.240 Did you feel an inclination at first? You're like, all right, 1:31:01.280 --> 1:31:03.360 I'm going to turn the page. A lot of my 1:31:03.479 --> 1:31:07.439 friends are going to the inaugural, you know, even if 1:31:07.479 --> 1:31:12.240 I'm not invited. You know, you know, we wish this 1:31:12.320 --> 1:31:15.280 guy success. Maybe he's different this time. Maybe he learned 1:31:15.280 --> 1:31:18.679 his lesson after all, you know, being on the receiving 1:31:18.800 --> 1:31:22.320 end of you know, so much stress during the Biden years. 1:31:24.360 --> 1:31:26.760 You must have gotten calls from friends of yours that 1:31:26.840 --> 1:31:29.639 did go is like, read, brother, I'm just doing this 1:31:29.720 --> 1:31:31.879 because it's the right thing to do for my company. 1:31:31.920 --> 1:31:35.479 I'm a fiduciary. What I mean, what how did you 1:31:35.479 --> 1:31:37.800 You chose not to do any of that? You're paying 1:31:37.800 --> 1:31:39.639 a price for that. I want to talk about that briefing. 1:31:39.760 --> 1:31:43.439 But you chose not to. Most folks chose too. 1:31:43.800 --> 1:31:50.960 Yeah. Look, I think the important thing is to say look, 1:31:51.040 --> 1:31:54.959 and people may not realize. It's like people can see 1:31:55.160 --> 1:31:57.920 that you were you were. What's the price that you're 1:31:57.920 --> 1:32:05.479 putting on your own honesty? And frankly, the only kind 1:32:05.479 --> 1:32:07.400 of price side to accept from my honesty is is 1:32:08.080 --> 1:32:11.240 saving millions of children. If there was something where I 1:32:11.320 --> 1:32:13.559 were where you say, okay, this would save millions of children. 1:32:13.600 --> 1:32:15.679 You're not going to be dishonest, Okay, I would take 1:32:15.680 --> 1:32:16.080 that trade. 1:32:16.400 --> 1:32:18.480 Contrast that to doge in usaid. 1:32:18.640 --> 1:32:25.000 Yes, yeah, five hundred thousand children, Yeah, probably dead because 1:32:25.000 --> 1:32:28.960 of that. Yeah right, great job. Yeah, ip, Yeah, I'm 1:32:29.000 --> 1:32:33.280 the defender of children. I see lots of corpses, right, 1:32:33.680 --> 1:32:41.280 and so the I think that the look the exhortation 1:32:41.439 --> 1:32:43.280 is look at yourself in the mirror and see it. 1:32:43.360 --> 1:32:44.800 And by the way, if the person goes I look 1:32:44.800 --> 1:32:46.680 at myself in the mirror, I'm just fine because I 1:32:46.680 --> 1:32:49.439 don't care. Then we have to speak about it. And 1:32:49.479 --> 1:32:51.920 that's part of the reason I wouldn't go. That's part 1:32:51.920 --> 1:32:54.400 of the reason I don't like. You know, I got 1:32:54.760 --> 1:32:58.160 these funny phone calls from people saying, hey, you know, 1:32:58.320 --> 1:33:01.559 for twenty million dollar is the right thing I can 1:33:01.640 --> 1:33:04.040 make your your your Trump problems go away. 1:33:04.080 --> 1:33:06.839 And you literally got to call it like, don't donate 1:33:06.880 --> 1:33:09.120 to this, so that the equivalent of a ballroom at 1:33:09.160 --> 1:33:11.400 the time, Yes, exactly, And it's like. 1:33:11.560 --> 1:33:13.720 I can knock your things and it's just sick. This 1:33:13.800 --> 1:33:17.479 is happening, Yes, happens, Yes, it's it's it is It's 1:33:17.520 --> 1:33:21.400 like like that is Unamerican right, I stand for what 1:33:21.479 --> 1:33:25.400 the country like aspires to be and should be. This 1:33:25.479 --> 1:33:28.280 is corrupt, this is fucked no possibility. 1:33:28.880 --> 1:33:32.400 And you and I share something sadly in common, which 1:33:32.600 --> 1:33:34.599 is just the elephant in the room. So it would 1:33:34.600 --> 1:33:37.360 be either of it. We can act like it didn't exist. 1:33:37.400 --> 1:33:41.320 We can edit it and say, but the Department of Justice. 1:33:41.200 --> 1:33:47.080 Yes, which is being instrumented as as a personal and 1:33:47.200 --> 1:33:51.920 corruption corrupted to a personal attack vehicle for President Trump. 1:33:51.920 --> 1:33:55.559 In your case, it's political opponents, right, which is no. 1:33:55.920 --> 1:33:59.800 Our whole point from George Washington's you know, seating of 1:34:00.800 --> 1:34:03.200 and and the and what this country stands for is 1:34:03.880 --> 1:34:07.800 we do not allow the instrum the state to try 1:34:07.800 --> 1:34:11.200 to corrupt the political process for people running for office. 1:34:11.600 --> 1:34:14.120 Oh no, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna stand up, because 1:34:14.479 --> 1:34:18.720 what's the basis of your Department of Justice investigation? Like, 1:34:19.040 --> 1:34:22.080 do you have any evidence? Do you have anything? 1:34:22.120 --> 1:34:22.280 No? 1:34:22.280 --> 1:34:24.960 No, we're just harass them. We'll just we're gonna look 1:34:25.000 --> 1:34:27.880 for something. And and we're not gonna look for something 1:34:27.920 --> 1:34:30.000 in red states, We're not gonna look for something. We're 1:34:30.000 --> 1:34:31.840 gonna look for something. And oh, who are the people 1:34:31.880 --> 1:34:34.320 who might be running, you know, for probably let's look 1:34:34.360 --> 1:34:37.599 for them, right that are running against us, right right. 1:34:37.520 --> 1:34:40.360 Or those that donate yes to the other team. 1:34:40.479 --> 1:34:43.479 Yeah, well, this one is crazy. So look, I have 1:34:43.600 --> 1:34:48.680 the honor of being called out three times by you know, 1:34:48.920 --> 1:34:52.960 Trump for and Trump administration, actually twice by Trump and 1:34:53.000 --> 1:34:58.440 once most recently, uh, kind of indirectly for like investigation. 1:34:58.560 --> 1:35:01.480 The first one was in TIFA, which which is like 1:35:01.479 --> 1:35:05.640 like an organization that they can't name a member of, 1:35:06.040 --> 1:35:09.040 an activity of, a leader of, and a tributal action, 1:35:09.520 --> 1:35:12.439 et cetera. But whatever that is. Maybe I've been financing it, 1:35:12.840 --> 1:35:15.040 Like what are you talking about, So. 1:35:15.080 --> 1:35:17.639 You've been doing how many years you've been financing Antifa? 1:35:17.760 --> 1:35:20.240 Yeah? Well, like and can you point it out to me? 1:35:20.360 --> 1:35:23.080 I would love to see it. Oh well I will like, like, 1:35:23.240 --> 1:35:26.479 as far as I know, I have never financed anything 1:35:26.560 --> 1:35:29.599 even remotely in the same universe. Yes, right, but whatever. 1:35:29.880 --> 1:35:33.920 So now, most recently, you know, some lawyers for Egene 1:35:33.960 --> 1:35:36.599 Carroll came to me and said, we have a woman 1:35:36.840 --> 1:35:41.679 who is the victim of sexual assault, who is being 1:35:41.840 --> 1:35:46.599 slandered and attacked and wants to go to court and 1:35:47.120 --> 1:35:50.160 would you like make a five one seri? Your donation. 1:35:50.240 --> 1:35:53.240 By the way, totally legal to finance legal cases. By 1:35:53.240 --> 1:35:55.559 the way, it would even been financial little legal cases 1:35:55.600 --> 1:35:57.640 to say, hey I get a percentage of the proceeds. 1:35:57.840 --> 1:36:01.320 That's actually like no, no, no, I think what's important here 1:36:01.439 --> 1:36:05.720 is that a that that a VIC, a survivor of 1:36:05.840 --> 1:36:10.120 sexual assault, can have her day in court with an 1:36:10.120 --> 1:36:14.639 American jury who makes the decision. Yes, I will I 1:36:14.680 --> 1:36:17.280 that that is an important thing as being Americans. I 1:36:17.320 --> 1:36:21.760 will I will finance that, right versus financing a ballroom, yes, 1:36:21.880 --> 1:36:23.880 versus finance and wall room. And I have no economics. 1:36:23.920 --> 1:36:26.960 It was literally like like like if economics come back 1:36:26.960 --> 1:36:31.120 from it, she is the survivor, she should get that, right, 1:36:31.240 --> 1:36:35.200 I like, I am just helping her have her you 1:36:35.240 --> 1:36:37.479 know kind of ability to speak her truth in court. 1:36:38.240 --> 1:36:41.960 Twelve jurors, probably at least three of them were Trump voters, right, 1:36:42.320 --> 1:36:47.439 you know, twice demonstrated is nope quick universal you know, 1:36:47.560 --> 1:36:49.720 like you like kind of you know, like the entire 1:36:49.800 --> 1:36:54.000 journey went yep, this is this is bad. And now 1:36:54.080 --> 1:36:57.559 because it's like wow, you know, so now the DOJ 1:36:58.520 --> 1:37:01.479 should be investigating this. They started with will and will 1:37:01.600 --> 1:37:05.720 will investigate Egene Carroll right, and you're like, so wait 1:37:05.960 --> 1:37:10.040 you're investigating the victor, the survivor and the victim of 1:37:10.120 --> 1:37:16.320 sexual assault, which uh, an American jury has found in 1:37:16.400 --> 1:37:20.360 favor of So you, as the DJ are investigating her 1:37:20.400 --> 1:37:26.559 and now no, we're investigating the thunder right, well for what? Right? 1:37:26.640 --> 1:37:30.840 Like you know, I was like, and by the way, 1:37:30.840 --> 1:37:35.400 would I do it again? Yes, like a h a 1:37:35.520 --> 1:37:39.160 woman who has been assaulted by a very powerful rich man, 1:37:40.240 --> 1:37:43.160 she should have her ability to speak her truth through 1:37:43.160 --> 1:37:43.599 a jury. 1:37:45.200 --> 1:37:47.360 And wait, so I love the clarity. I would even 1:37:47.400 --> 1:37:49.639 do it again. I mean, you've been defiant, you said, 1:37:49.920 --> 1:37:53.360 quote unquote, I will not bend the knee. Your lawyers 1:37:53.360 --> 1:37:55.960 may have said, hey, reed, uh, why don't we just uh, 1:37:56.960 --> 1:37:59.120 why don't we Why don't we similar it down a 1:37:59.120 --> 1:38:01.000 little bit here and see if we can work something out. 1:38:01.200 --> 1:38:02.640 Why do you feel like you need to be so 1:38:02.960 --> 1:38:04.320 clear and defiant? 1:38:04.320 --> 1:38:07.760 Look, my lawyers, who are extremely good, said you have 1:38:07.840 --> 1:38:10.080 the following risks. But one of the things I love 1:38:10.120 --> 1:38:12.360 about my lawyers is the head and we admire the 1:38:12.400 --> 1:38:15.280 fact that you're you're you're, that you're doing the right 1:38:15.280 --> 1:38:17.360 thing that period. And that's part of the reason that 1:38:17.360 --> 1:38:20.559 they like to damn right, goddamn right, yeah, and uh. 1:38:20.680 --> 1:38:22.360 And this thing is playing out in real time. This 1:38:22.439 --> 1:38:25.559 is just a few weeks ago there, yes, exactly, yeah 1:38:25.600 --> 1:38:29.000 and so and as you know, maybe it's still going, 1:38:29.120 --> 1:38:31.520 maybe it's not. Who knows, who knows. 1:38:33.400 --> 1:38:36.759 Uh read a hell of a hell of a journey. 1:38:36.840 --> 1:38:39.680 This conversation has been around. 1:38:39.400 --> 1:38:41.559 The globe, and I'd be remiss if I didn't just 1:38:41.800 --> 1:38:45.559 circle back on one final thing, and that is you're 1:38:46.240 --> 1:38:50.240 over under assessment. You've been a lifelong Democrat. You've been 1:38:50.240 --> 1:38:52.479 trying to sort of work with a party from within, 1:38:52.640 --> 1:38:55.680 trying to sort of strengthen our muscles, strengthen our you know, 1:38:56.080 --> 1:38:59.559 our our approach and tactically and substantively in policy, and 1:38:59.600 --> 1:39:03.160 also just in terms of you know, how we're successful 1:39:03.160 --> 1:39:04.840 and just building coalitions, et cetera. 1:39:04.880 --> 1:39:06.160 What's your make of the. 1:39:07.720 --> 1:39:10.880 Overview of this whole autopsy and where we are and 1:39:10.920 --> 1:39:13.479 the lessons we learned or didn't learn from the last election, 1:39:13.640 --> 1:39:16.960 and where we stand as a party the Democratic Party today. 1:39:18.360 --> 1:39:20.479 Well, one major mistake we made in the last election 1:39:22.320 --> 1:39:26.960 that the next election we simply won't, which is most 1:39:27.000 --> 1:39:29.519 American people think DC is broken and want to change. 1:39:30.120 --> 1:39:33.000 And the problem is, like you know, uh, you know, 1:39:33.080 --> 1:39:36.800 Kamala's chance was to say I'm different than Biden, right, 1:39:37.120 --> 1:39:41.000 and like, yes, he was a necessary stabilization for the 1:39:41.040 --> 1:39:44.600 catastrophe that was Trump won, and they'll be necessary stabilization 1:39:44.680 --> 1:39:49.280 for the infinite catastrophe that is Trump too. But like 1:39:50.000 --> 1:39:54.320 I'm hearing that people feel pain and feel that there 1:39:54.360 --> 1:39:56.960 needs to be a change in DC is broken. That's 1:39:56.960 --> 1:40:01.639 going to be important, yep. And it's you know, including like, hey, 1:40:02.240 --> 1:40:06.400 until we figured out what's going on for us, could 1:40:06.439 --> 1:40:08.800 we like really limits slow down what's going on with 1:40:08.840 --> 1:40:12.880 migration because like like I don't know how migration is 1:40:12.880 --> 1:40:15.519 better for me, right, so you know that kind of stuff. 1:40:16.439 --> 1:40:20.040 But I think probably the most central thing is there's 1:40:20.080 --> 1:40:24.080 a lot of Democrats who don't understand why business is 1:40:24.120 --> 1:40:28.439 so important. They don't understand it pays for everything. It 1:40:28.479 --> 1:40:32.880 pays for the Medicare, it pays for Social Security, it 1:40:32.880 --> 1:40:36.280 pays for jobs. It's like really important. You got to 1:40:36.320 --> 1:40:39.240 be the I'm pro business, right, it just got to 1:40:39.240 --> 1:40:42.280 be you can't be pro job and anti business, yes exactly. 1:40:42.600 --> 1:40:46.960 So it's like stop being like, stop doing anti business 1:40:47.040 --> 1:40:50.599 rhetoric because people go, wait, that's totally broken, right, then 1:40:50.600 --> 1:40:54.320 that's what part of what this like socialist means. Right, 1:40:54.360 --> 1:40:57.920 It's like, so like be pro business. Now you may say, well, 1:40:57.960 --> 1:41:01.040 I want business to contribute more. Okay, be more specific 1:41:01.040 --> 1:41:03.639 about what that is, and then go on that as 1:41:03.680 --> 1:41:05.640 part of what you're doing. It's like, look, I'm very 1:41:05.720 --> 1:41:08.479 pro business, and I think business can contribute more in 1:41:08.479 --> 1:41:11.680 the following ways. I want business to succeed, and I 1:41:11.720 --> 1:41:14.439 think we should get business like it's a I want 1:41:14.479 --> 1:41:17.960 business succeed. Of course you do. It's what gives us 1:41:18.040 --> 1:41:21.120 jobs and everything else. And so being pro business in 1:41:21.120 --> 1:41:23.560 that regard and I think that's that's part of the 1:41:24.600 --> 1:41:28.439 thing where there is like I just don't think it 1:41:28.640 --> 1:41:33.680 works to say the real problem is in earlier elections 1:41:33.760 --> 1:41:39.919 we weren't anti power enough, where anti power means anti business, 1:41:40.320 --> 1:41:44.200 and so it's like, no, look we do. Look, all 1:41:44.280 --> 1:41:47.799 societies have pillars of power. They have pillars of power 1:41:47.800 --> 1:41:50.760 in politics, they have pillars of power in business, they 1:41:50.760 --> 1:41:54.200 have pillars of power in celebrity. They have pillars of power. 1:41:54.520 --> 1:41:57.519 And what you really want is a distribution of power. Now, 1:41:57.560 --> 1:42:00.680 when you get to a trillionaire, you go, hey, he 1:42:00.720 --> 1:42:02.920 should be limited about how he can buy elections and 1:42:02.960 --> 1:42:07.200 do other kinds of shit, right, Like that's important because 1:42:07.280 --> 1:42:10.479 that's a corruption on that kind of power. But by 1:42:10.520 --> 1:42:12.320 the way, part of the reason why, like I have 1:42:12.400 --> 1:42:18.000 not been worried about the scaling tech companies is because 1:42:18.040 --> 1:42:19.960 if we were this is one thing has had like 1:42:20.360 --> 1:42:23.240 eight plus years ago, If we were five to seven 1:42:23.360 --> 1:42:25.839 scale tech companies heading the three, I'd have a concern. 1:42:26.439 --> 1:42:29.639 If we're five to seven heading the fifteen, they compete 1:42:29.640 --> 1:42:31.840 with each other and they're balancing out their power and 1:42:31.880 --> 1:42:35.200 all the rest. And by the way, I'm right right 1:42:35.360 --> 1:42:39.080 in Nvidia, Open Ai, and Thropic it's more and more 1:42:39.120 --> 1:42:42.280 and more competing with each other. And that competition is 1:42:42.320 --> 1:42:45.360 part of how we govern the system in terms of 1:42:45.400 --> 1:42:49.120 how we're doing it, so being more business intelligent and 1:42:49.240 --> 1:42:52.519 pro business generally, and the thought shouldn't be how do 1:42:52.560 --> 1:42:54.559 we limit business? The thought should be how do we 1:42:54.640 --> 1:42:56.600 shape business to help society? 1:42:57.400 --> 1:43:00.320 And so in this I mean so it's interesting at 1:43:00.320 --> 1:43:01.720 the core, and I think it goes to you know, 1:43:01.760 --> 1:43:04.839 you had some issues with Lena Kon at the FTC 1:43:04.960 --> 1:43:08.439 and the context and then the brand of Biden. Yeah, 1:43:08.600 --> 1:43:11.759 sort of took a shape in a completely different direction, 1:43:12.040 --> 1:43:13.960 including by the way, in the crypto space, as you 1:43:13.960 --> 1:43:17.559 were implying earlier that there was an opportunity there. Yes, 1:43:17.760 --> 1:43:20.160 and they just turned their back because of the excesses, 1:43:20.200 --> 1:43:24.640 but without looking at the sort of baseline benefits of 1:43:24.720 --> 1:43:28.880 blockchain or democratizing access to banking and not having the 1:43:28.920 --> 1:43:32.680 friction and the capture of the banking system and the 1:43:32.720 --> 1:43:34.280 fee structures and the rest. 1:43:34.400 --> 1:43:38.560 Yeah, exactly. So what we want is we want democrats 1:43:38.560 --> 1:43:43.000 to say we're business intelligent and we're proposing things that 1:43:43.120 --> 1:43:48.599 shape it to the better benefit of the working class. Great, 1:43:49.800 --> 1:43:50.280 all for it. 1:43:50.760 --> 1:43:54.200 And you are aware on the Billionaire's text or read 1:43:54.360 --> 1:43:56.640 where are you on the billionaires tax? You know my 1:43:56.720 --> 1:43:59.759 position as a state level, but what about that debate 1:44:00.320 --> 1:44:02.960 and how does that play in to your broader point? 1:44:03.640 --> 1:44:08.719 So I'm not at all opposed to increasing progressive taxation. 1:44:09.320 --> 1:44:11.160 You and I have talked about the income taxes here. 1:44:11.080 --> 1:44:13.200 Withore California is a perfect example right. 1:44:14.560 --> 1:44:20.280 Now. But the the way that it's proposed and implemented 1:44:20.439 --> 1:44:27.160 is a disaster, right. I mean, it's the you know, 1:44:27.240 --> 1:44:29.599 it's kind of like the hey, fuck you, we hate 1:44:29.640 --> 1:44:31.679 you guys, We're going to take money from you. Well, 1:44:31.720 --> 1:44:34.800 a lot of them respond to that very rationally say great, 1:44:34.800 --> 1:44:37.439 we're going on another state. Right, And by the way, 1:44:37.560 --> 1:44:40.400 not only do they take the they reduce the perspective 1:44:41.040 --> 1:44:42.280 billionaire's tax. 1:44:42.200 --> 1:44:45.360 The annual income tax that we were otherwise enjoying is 1:44:45.400 --> 1:44:46.280 no longer with us. 1:44:46.360 --> 1:44:48.439 Yes, it's a disaster. 1:44:48.320 --> 1:44:51.599 As this state has discovered. It's not anecdotal. I mean, yes, 1:44:51.640 --> 1:44:54.160 people say, oh, it's bullshit. No, it's not bullshit. And 1:44:54.200 --> 1:44:56.760 we have actual names, real people, and then we have 1:44:56.880 --> 1:44:59.320 dozens of people they don't know about because they don't. 1:44:59.120 --> 1:45:01.080 Want to make a big deal all about it. Exactly. 1:45:01.200 --> 1:45:03.080 I personally know fifteen people have moved. 1:45:03.120 --> 1:45:06.200 Yeah, I don't say that, yes, because I'm at twelve. 1:45:06.280 --> 1:45:10.080 So let's compare the list. Yes, so it's a disaster 1:45:10.200 --> 1:45:14.439 now part of By the way, and someone watching this 1:45:14.520 --> 1:45:17.439 may be like rolling their eyes of course read mister 1:45:17.479 --> 1:45:21.160 billionaires saying this Newsom's captured by these guys as well. 1:45:21.240 --> 1:45:24.240 You know, that's why this is a chummy conversation. But 1:45:24.680 --> 1:45:30.000 the notion of the California billionaires tax at a state level, 1:45:30.640 --> 1:45:32.760 this is a real thing. I mean, just by the way, 1:45:32.760 --> 1:45:35.040 it's where the teachers opposed it. Yes, that's why the 1:45:35.080 --> 1:45:38.920 firefighters opposed it. That's why vast majority of organized labor 1:45:39.160 --> 1:45:42.720 opposes the California Billionaire's Tax, which I think is an 1:45:42.760 --> 1:45:46.800 incredibly important point to make. It's not just you saying 1:45:46.800 --> 1:45:49.639 it to me, who's well known in my opposition that said, 1:45:49.680 --> 1:45:54.000 it's at a federal level. This notion of again you 1:45:54.040 --> 1:45:57.400 say progressive tax system, but this notion of a tax 1:45:57.439 --> 1:46:02.519 system that does but inheritance needs to be reformed. Does 1:46:02.560 --> 1:46:05.519 it stepped up basis need to be reformed. 1:46:05.680 --> 1:46:07.639 Look, I think it's good to do all of these 1:46:07.640 --> 1:46:12.120 things right. Look, it's good to say, Look, we are 1:46:12.160 --> 1:46:16.080 not in a place where, roughly speaking, progressive taxation eg 1:46:16.720 --> 1:46:19.519 as you make more money, you pay a higher percentage 1:46:19.520 --> 1:46:21.439 of tax. H'ch just a higher number, but a higher percentage, 1:46:21.920 --> 1:46:24.439 not to infinite. I actually think roughly when you get 1:46:24.479 --> 1:46:28.360 to fifty, you start getting weird perverse incentives, like you 1:46:28.400 --> 1:46:30.920 go to, I'm now charging with seventy percent tax. The 1:46:31.280 --> 1:46:33.080 answer is, oh, I'm now going to work more on 1:46:33.120 --> 1:46:35.200 how are I not pay the seventy percent tax than 1:46:35.200 --> 1:46:38.160 you're in the next dollar? Roughly at fifty to fifty, 1:46:38.920 --> 1:46:40.960 many not all, but many people go, I'll just earn 1:46:41.000 --> 1:46:44.320 the next dollar, right, I'll find now. But the problem 1:46:44.360 --> 1:46:47.160 is the net effective rate for wealthy people is wall below. 1:46:47.000 --> 1:46:51.080 Fifty because it's not on their income, it's on the corpus, 1:46:51.200 --> 1:46:55.120 it's on the capital. It's the benefits that accrue then 1:46:55.240 --> 1:46:57.040 to having a lower tax rate. 1:46:57.160 --> 1:47:00.920 Yeah, so capital game. So this we should be fixing. 1:47:01.479 --> 1:47:04.400 And by the way, we already have versions of wealth 1:47:04.439 --> 1:47:06.800 tax like property tax a good way. I actually like 1:47:06.840 --> 1:47:09.519 the whole Pieter terror tax. I think it's a small thing, 1:47:09.560 --> 1:47:10.800 but I think it's a good thing to do. 1:47:11.280 --> 1:47:14.519 And Mendami obviously popularized it, but it's happened in many 1:47:14.520 --> 1:47:16.800 other cities incluely San Francisco, and a version it's in 1:47:16.840 --> 1:47:18.880 litigation and other parts of the globe have been doing 1:47:18.920 --> 1:47:19.320 it for years. 1:47:19.360 --> 1:47:20.800 Yeah, but I think it's a good like. It's a 1:47:20.840 --> 1:47:23.800 small one, but an example of this is a good one. Right, 1:47:24.280 --> 1:47:27.000 And so what are the ones that we can do 1:47:27.360 --> 1:47:31.639 that are healthy in the system and also don't have 1:47:33.320 --> 1:47:37.439 you know, a weird kind of massive double tax you 1:47:37.479 --> 1:47:40.280 know kind of things and are coherent across it and sort. 1:47:41.120 --> 1:47:45.040 But progressive tax is good. And of course the incentive 1:47:45.120 --> 1:47:48.400 is to try to avoid tax, right, I mean the 1:47:48.479 --> 1:47:52.280 natural deetive everyone has that incentive, right, but let's try 1:47:52.320 --> 1:47:55.439 to make it so that it's that you're like, okay, 1:47:56.360 --> 1:47:58.519 because this is the thing I like when people call 1:47:58.600 --> 1:48:01.080 me and ask me about the the California wealth tax, 1:48:01.120 --> 1:48:03.840 I say, look, here is how I would try to 1:48:03.920 --> 1:48:07.679 introduce new taxes in California. Whether it's raising the income 1:48:07.760 --> 1:48:11.000 or house, I would say, hey, we're going to tax 1:48:11.439 --> 1:48:15.000 very much disproportionate from the wealthy. The wealthy have had 1:48:15.120 --> 1:48:18.120 a huge benefit of being in California because that's how 1:48:18.160 --> 1:48:21.400 they've made all their wealth and all the rest. So yes, 1:48:21.520 --> 1:48:23.800 we wish that they would just go along with it. 1:48:23.840 --> 1:48:27.360 But of course everyone wants to avoid tax, but like 1:48:27.680 --> 1:48:29.400 pitch it to them in terms where you're like, I'm 1:48:29.439 --> 1:48:32.719 fixing the problem, right, Like, hey, we're creating a sovereign 1:48:32.760 --> 1:48:37.000 wealth fund for being able to fund ongoing you know, 1:48:37.080 --> 1:48:41.639 kind of prosperity of California's Like Okay, then like okay, 1:48:41.720 --> 1:48:45.240 I like, I'm I still would rather not pay more tax, right, 1:48:45.479 --> 1:48:47.280 but it makes sense to me that it opens the door. 1:48:47.280 --> 1:48:48.840 And by the way, so many of the conversations we've 1:48:48.880 --> 1:48:50.400 had with many of the people, including a number of 1:48:50.400 --> 1:48:52.840 people that have left, are in laws lines where they 1:48:52.920 --> 1:48:56.479 would they have publicly stated, not just privately stated, they 1:48:56.520 --> 1:48:58.599 would support something along those guts. 1:48:58.760 --> 1:49:02.479 So because it's economic rationality, because because in addition to 1:49:02.600 --> 1:49:07.240 first thing, you know, uh f you you wealthy people, 1:49:07.280 --> 1:49:10.479 we're gonna just charge you for this. And it's like, well, 1:49:10.520 --> 1:49:13.880 are you charging me for what, oh, the huge shortfall 1:49:14.000 --> 1:49:20.360 from Trump's you know, a big beautiful betrayal betrayal HR one, Yes, 1:49:20.400 --> 1:49:22.839 big cuts to medicaid, which we have these huge costs 1:49:22.880 --> 1:49:25.880 because cutting medicaid, So we're going to charge you for that. 1:49:25.920 --> 1:49:29.240 It's like, well, that's not a one off issue. That's 1:49:29.280 --> 1:49:31.360 going to continue on going. And you're telling me this 1:49:31.400 --> 1:49:36.519 is one off. I don't believe you by that. Amen. Well, 1:49:36.600 --> 1:49:40.000 I appreciate that sentiment, and obviously I. 1:49:39.880 --> 1:49:42.200 Believe very strongly we're gonna have to address the tax 1:49:42.240 --> 1:49:44.960 code federally in a in a profound way. 1:49:45.120 --> 1:49:46.120 In California many. 1:49:45.920 --> 1:49:48.479 Ways has some clues, it has some models, and I 1:49:48.520 --> 1:49:52.240 mean compare California most progressive tax rate states like New 1:49:52.280 --> 1:49:55.519 York as well, but to the most regressive states like 1:49:55.560 --> 1:49:58.519 Texas and Florida that tax their low wage earners more 1:49:58.520 --> 1:50:02.160 than we tax our highway. So the question objectively, is 1:50:02.200 --> 1:50:04.840 who is the high tax state, the highest tax rate 1:50:05.200 --> 1:50:08.600 for the one percent. Ninety nine percent don't live in 1:50:08.640 --> 1:50:11.400 the one percent, and so this is but this notion 1:50:11.520 --> 1:50:14.880 that there's a tonality here, there's a sentiment around but 1:50:14.960 --> 1:50:19.320 grudging success. There's aspects of this that I think there's 1:50:19.400 --> 1:50:21.040 nuance on what you're saying that I think is important 1:50:21.080 --> 1:50:21.840 as a Democrat. 1:50:22.120 --> 1:50:25.439 I certainly share. Thanks for sharing all this time. 1:50:25.520 --> 1:50:27.920 It's been a lot of fun, and thanks for coming 1:50:27.960 --> 1:50:32.360 to you know, Governor Reagan's mansion, who I think had 1:50:32.439 --> 1:50:33.640 seventy percent tax right. 1:50:34.920 --> 1:50:36.639 Yes, well, And I think that's one of the reason 1:50:36.680 --> 1:50:38.519 I was online, is like it just creates a huge 1:50:38.560 --> 1:50:40.240 incentive to try to do something of it. But it's 1:50:40.280 --> 1:50:41.960 a pleasure and I look forward to nex