Speaker 1: Hi, get everybody. I'm Dan Hoard and thanks for downloading
Speaker 1: the Bengals Booth podcast The I'm Wonderin addition, as I
Speaker 1: discussed the team's ambitious offseason goals with one of my
Speaker 1: favorite Bengals analysts and content creators, Joe Goodberry, but first
Speaker 1: punter Ryan Rico joins me to look back at his
Speaker 1: record setting rookie year. The Bengals Booth Podcast is brought
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Speaker 1: provider of the Bengals. Now here's a quick reminder that
Speaker 1: you can have the latest edition of this podcast delivered
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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. It's the greatest thing since art,
Speaker 1: but make it sports. That's the name of a social
Speaker 1: media account that takes still images from the world of
Speaker 1: sports and compares them side by side to works of
Speaker 1: art that looks similar. The person behind the account is
Speaker 1: named l j Raider and his knack for matching current
Speaker 1: sports photos to centuries old art without the help of
Speaker 1: AI is nothing short of remarkable. For example, on the
Speaker 1: Fumble in the Jungle, there's a famous image that shows
Speaker 1: Raven's quarterback Tyler Huntley jumping up and trying to extend
Speaker 1: the ball over the goal line just before it's knocked
Speaker 1: out of his hands by Logan Wilson. Raider posted it
Speaker 1: on the Art But Make It Sports social media account
Speaker 1: next to a painting from the early eighteen hundreds named
Speaker 1: The Coronation of Napoleon by Jacques Louis David. The image
Speaker 1: of Napoleon hoisting a crown above his head is eerily
Speaker 1: similar to Huntley holding out the football. Raider is also
Speaker 1: posted side by side comparisons of a T. Higgins catch
Speaker 1: next to another painting by Jacques Louis David, as well
Speaker 1: as an image of Joe Burrow entering a stadium in
Speaker 1: a funky sweater next to a quilt made by Mary
Speaker 1: Lee Bendolph. If you want to see what I mean,
Speaker 1: go to Twitter or x whatever you call it these days,
Speaker 1: and do a search for art but Make It Sports.
Speaker 1: That's one long word and Bengals with the AT symbol
Speaker 1: in front of it. Again. Search for art, but make
Speaker 1: it sports and at Bengals. Now let's get to my
Speaker 1: first guest this week, Punter Ryan Rico made a quick
Speaker 1: trip to Cincinnati from his home in Utah to sign
Speaker 1: a two year contract extension. Not bad for a guy
Speaker 1: who wasn't even on the roster when the Bengals open
Speaker 1: training camp last year. I talked to Ryan about that
Speaker 1: and what turned out to be a record setting rookie year. Ryan,
Speaker 1: after your outstanding rookie year, it's easy to forget that
Speaker 1: you were not on the team for the first day
Speaker 1: of training camp. You missed like the welcome speech from
Speaker 1: Zach Taylor and stuff like that. As NFL training camps opened.
Speaker 1: What was your confidence level that ultimately you would get
Speaker 1: an opportunity?
Speaker 2: Man?
Speaker 3: That was that was a pretty stressful summer. And then
Speaker 3: to not be on a team. You have social media,
Speaker 3: you can't not see like report day everybody coming in
Speaker 3: and so I remember that day was like, wow, that
Speaker 3: would be nice right about now. Obviously had faith. My
Speaker 3: wife just kept telling me like, no, we're We're gonna
Speaker 3: be ready. There will be a call. And it took
Speaker 3: a couple of days, but we did get that call
Speaker 3: and it made it all worth it. After that, for sure.
Speaker 1: You joined the Bengals on day three of training camp.
Speaker 1: There were three punters in camp at the time. What
Speaker 1: did you think of your odds of ultimately making the team.
Speaker 3: I really at that point, I wasn't thinking about odds.
Speaker 3: It was more, Wow, this is a great opportunity. I
Speaker 3: knew both of the punters. I knew both Brad and
Speaker 3: Austin really well, and so that was a unique dynamic
Speaker 3: to come into because it's like we're all friends, we
Speaker 3: all know each other, but there's only one spot. And
Speaker 3: so I think for me, it was all such a
Speaker 3: whirlwind that I didn't really have the chance to look
Speaker 3: into the future. It's like, oh my gosh, I got
Speaker 3: practiced later today, Like I just got to dial in
Speaker 3: and be ready for that.
Speaker 1: So they let Austin go after about a week, and
Speaker 1: then Brad got injured about a week after that. What
Speaker 1: went through your mind at that point?
Speaker 3: Obviously, like you hate to see your friends not not
Speaker 3: get the spot that they were wanting. And then especially
Speaker 3: with Brad, I feel like, obviously injuries are part of football,
Speaker 3: but in our position they're a little bit fewer, and
Speaker 3: so you hate to see anybody have to deal with that,
Speaker 3: and essentially for an opportunity to be taken away from
Speaker 3: them because of an injury is really unfortunate. And so
Speaker 3: it's definitely it causes you to take a pause and
Speaker 3: just be like, Okay, I really got to make sure
Speaker 3: I'm healthy because that could happen to me at any
Speaker 3: point as well. But then at the same time, I
Speaker 3: remember Darren coming up to me, is like, Okay, we
Speaker 3: don't know how long Brad is gonna be out. You
Speaker 3: now have to be looking at week one. We're going
Speaker 3: up against this returner, We're going up against the Patriots, Like,
Speaker 3: you gotta be ready like this. This shifts everything now,
Speaker 3: and so it definitely it was all just a whirlwind,
Speaker 3: and all of it just kind of came together of Okay,
Speaker 3: take every day as it comes, and just be ready
Speaker 3: for the next opportunity.
Speaker 1: If Darren told you to be ready for week one,
Speaker 1: you were ready for Week one. You probably had the
Speaker 1: greatest punting debut in NFL history. This is not hyperbole.
Speaker 1: You punted four times against the Patriots. Fifty seven yards
Speaker 1: was the first, eighty was the second, that's the Bengals
Speaker 1: team record, fifty one for the third, seventy for the fourth.
Speaker 1: It's the best average for anybody who's punted four times
Speaker 1: in a game in NFL history. After that game, what
Speaker 1: did that do for your confidence level and the belief that,
Speaker 1: all right, I can be one of the thirty two?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I think obviously it was just really really grateful, because
Speaker 3: you hope going into that first game, that's like, Okay,
Speaker 3: I just want to have a good game. I want
Speaker 3: to show what I'm capable of, and so definitely didn't
Speaker 3: picture that or imagine that, like that was just an
Speaker 3: amazing blessing, and I was really grateful for all of that.
Speaker 3: And then at that point, I remember I was happy,
Speaker 3: but it was like you still out like seventeen weeks,
Speaker 3: like I want to prove it again and again and again,
Speaker 3: and so obviously really happy with the way that that went.
Speaker 3: But then it was like, Okay, I got to keep
Speaker 3: proving that one week doesn't make a great punter or
Speaker 3: a great career, and so just kind of taking that, Okay,
Speaker 3: I belong here, I know that I can, I know
Speaker 3: that I can do this thing. Let's just keep showing
Speaker 3: what I can do.
Speaker 1: We're visiting with Ryan Rico. In Week three, against Washington,
Speaker 1: you didn't punt. Several weeks after that, against Philadelphia, you
Speaker 1: didn't punt again. You shared an interesting story with me
Speaker 1: recently that you actually had family come across the country
Speaker 1: to see you for those two home games. They didn't
Speaker 1: get to see you punt.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no. My dad started to make the joke.
Speaker 3: He's like, Hey, tell everybody on the team, if we
Speaker 3: don't want to punt a game, our family will come
Speaker 3: out and it'll make it happen. So it was definitely.
Speaker 3: I mean, we're never I always want to punt. I
Speaker 3: always want to like contribute, but at the same time,
Speaker 3: if the offense is performing so well that I don't
Speaker 3: need to, then that's also a great thing. Unfortunately, we
Speaker 3: didn't win either of those games, so maybe we'll find
Speaker 3: a way to win without punting, and then that'll just
Speaker 3: be the perfect formula for us.
Speaker 1: You still had to do the other half of your job,
Speaker 1: which is holding.
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely so, they at least coet have seen me
Speaker 3: go on the field. They're there for warm ups, they
Speaker 3: see enough kicks there. But it was definitely a unique
Speaker 3: because I've never done that in high school or college,
Speaker 3: and so for it to happen twice this year was like, Wow,
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm not doing anything right now.
Speaker 1: Basically, so, in your rookie year, you set the team
Speaker 1: records for punking average forty nine point one and net
Speaker 1: average forty two point nine. Both of those records are
Speaker 1: previously held by Kevin Huber. Did you get to interact
Speaker 1: with Kevin at all this year?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw Kevin a few times. He was there
Speaker 3: during training camp, I think when all three of us
Speaker 3: were still there punting, and so I got to talk
Speaker 3: to him a little bit again. At that point, I
Speaker 3: was just like trying to keep my head above water
Speaker 3: and stay stay locked in. But every time that I
Speaker 3: talked to him, he was nothing but complimentary, was giving
Speaker 3: me really good insights. And he's another person where, shoot,
Speaker 3: you want to look at the formula for being a
Speaker 3: successful punter in the NFL and especially here in Cincinnati.
Speaker 3: He's kind of the guy that has done it. So
Speaker 3: I'm definitely looking forward to getting to interact with them
Speaker 3: more and honestly just picking his brain because he's I know,
Speaker 3: he's seen a lot of things. Heck, he was punting
Speaker 3: in the Super Bowl so pretty much any scenario that
Speaker 3: I can imagine hoping to be a part of, He's
Speaker 3: already done it. And so I'm really looking forward to
Speaker 3: kind of using him as a mentor and just getting
Speaker 3: better based on what information he can give me.
Speaker 1: You're both golfers, so I could see that happening down
Speaker 1: the road. He holds nearly all of the Bengals punting
Speaker 1: records except for the single season marks that you beat
Speaker 1: this year. But number two on the list for a
Speaker 1: lot of these records is Lee Johnson. Punted at Byu.
Speaker 1: You punted at Byu. Do you have a relationship with him?
Speaker 3: I absolutely do. So Ever since I got to Byu Lee,
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure Lee has been there at least for
Speaker 3: the last couple of years I was, and so throughout
Speaker 3: all of it, he would come out and just kind
Speaker 3: of check in see what I was doing. He'd come
Speaker 3: watch me punt a couple times and give me some point.
Speaker 3: And so then when I was going through the combine
Speaker 3: and the draft and all of those things, every time
Speaker 3: I was back in the facility, Lee has the most
Speaker 3: energy I've ever seen out of anybody. Pretty Much, He's
Speaker 3: always in the gym, working out and so we just
Speaker 3: kind of talk and he's just constantly checking in seeing
Speaker 3: how things are going. And so after that first game,
Speaker 3: Lee was one of the first people to call and
Speaker 3: just be like, really, really, you're gonna do that the
Speaker 3: first game? Are you kidding me? And so he's just
Speaker 3: been nothing but supportive. He's given me a lot of
Speaker 3: help and insight as well, and he's someone that I
Speaker 3: just I consider a really close friend and just a
Speaker 3: great guy to kind of have in your corner.
Speaker 1: It was a tremendous year, but there were some rocky moments.
Speaker 1: There always will be during the course of an NFL season.
Speaker 1: The first thing that comes to mind was the Baltimore game.
Speaker 1: Over time, you line up to kick a game winning
Speaker 1: field goal, the operation isn't clean, Evan McPherson misses it
Speaker 1: wide to the left, and you guys wind up losing
Speaker 1: the game. The replay focuses in tightly on you struggling
Speaker 1: to catch the ball and get it down cleanly. Was
Speaker 1: it hard to sleep that night? What was the rest
Speaker 1: of that day like for you?
Speaker 3: That was an interesting day. I don't want to say
Speaker 3: it wasn't hard, because, like you never want to be
Speaker 3: a part of one of those moments. Honestly, it was
Speaker 3: more just kind of disbelief just because that had never
Speaker 3: really happened before, like it'll happen in practice, very rarely,
Speaker 3: and in fact, that was one of the things that
Speaker 3: Darren told me, was like, those things happen. It stinks
Speaker 3: that happened, had to happen at that moment, but it
Speaker 3: does happen, and unfortunately we just have to live with
Speaker 3: it and move on. And so kind of going home
Speaker 3: that night, it's I got a lot of calls of support,
Speaker 3: just like, hey, you still had a great game all
Speaker 3: this stuff, and to me, it was like I'm not
Speaker 3: going to sit here and like dwell on it or
Speaker 3: focus on it. It was one game, and I hate
Speaker 3: that it happened, and that's why I worked to never
Speaker 3: let those kind of things happen again. But it was
Speaker 3: the definitely a good learning moment, just to like, okay,
Speaker 3: like you're not invincible. You have to be locked in
Speaker 3: at every single moment anytime you're on the field. And
Speaker 3: so again, I hate that it happened. I learned a
Speaker 3: lot from it, and it's just one of those things
Speaker 3: like I have to accept it and move on. I
Speaker 3: can't change it. Just got to move on and work
Speaker 3: to make sure that it doesn't happen again.
Speaker 1: Later in the year, something bad happened that turned out
Speaker 1: well for the team. The Dallas game. Two minutes to go,
Speaker 1: the score is tied. You get a punt blocked and
Speaker 1: it looks like that might cost the team the game,
Speaker 1: except that Dallas touches the ball fails to pick it up.
Speaker 1: The Bengals recover, and three plays later, Joe Burrow too
Speaker 1: is the game when he touched down pass to Jamar Chase.
Speaker 1: Was it at all difficult to enjoy the win just
Speaker 1: because that happened, or because it happened, Are you like, hey,
Speaker 1: this is great?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: There were so many mixed emotions because again, it's like
Speaker 3: winning is not easy, so you're always going to be
Speaker 3: happy with a win. I think I was a little
Speaker 3: bit frustrated, just in the sense of, like, Okay, I
Speaker 3: take pride in not allowing those things to happen, and
Speaker 3: sometimes a player just makes a great play and it's
Speaker 3: out of your control. So walking off the field, because
Speaker 3: I didn't initially realize that they had touched it, I
Speaker 3: thought that Muma was just able to recover the ball,
Speaker 3: and I was like great, Okay, like that's where they
Speaker 3: get the ball at and so I was really frustrated.
Speaker 3: But then someone's like, no, like they touched it, we
Speaker 3: got the ball back. I was like, what is going on?
Speaker 3: So it was just a whirlwind, and I had no
Speaker 3: I really didn't have any awareness of like what that situation,
Speaker 3: how it played out, and so ultimately we do get
Speaker 3: the win. I don't think I've ever been a part
Speaker 3: of a game where the block kick on us wins
Speaker 3: us the game, because then we still had to go
Speaker 3: make some really great plays. But it's one of those
Speaker 3: things where hate it worked out in our favor. We'll
Speaker 3: take it, but you don't. You don't always get that lucky.
Speaker 3: Obviously we saw that this year, and so learning opportunity
Speaker 3: once again. You just work and you keep pressing forward,
Speaker 3: and that's all that you can do.
Speaker 1: A couple more questions for Ryan Rico before we wrap
Speaker 1: this up. Let's discuss your off season. You're back in
Speaker 1: Utah where you went to college. Are you punting or
Speaker 1: just working out? What do you do this time of year?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's kind of a balancing act. And again,
Speaker 3: this is like my first off season in the NFL
Speaker 3: and so that's all just kind of a learning experience.
Speaker 3: For the most part, just working out and keeping not
Speaker 3: keeping busy because you do want to relax, but filling
Speaker 3: your time with meaningful things that are going to be beneficial.
Speaker 3: So definitely working out. I've punted a couple of times
Speaker 3: just because I love to do it and it gives
Speaker 3: me something to do. But you're always just kind of
Speaker 3: finding that balance of Okay, I don't want to overdo
Speaker 3: it because there's a lot a lot of time until
Speaker 3: we actually have to start kicking meaningful punts again, and
Speaker 3: so it's just kind of balancing that out of Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm going to take care of my body nutrition, but
Speaker 3: also I want to stay in the groove of things
Speaker 3: and just kind of keep that feel. So so it's
Speaker 3: mainly just a lot of working out, hanging out with
Speaker 3: a wife and the family, and punting every every now
Speaker 3: and then, just to just to keep keep everything feeling fresh.
Speaker 1: What your mindset going into year two. You've signed a contract.
Speaker 1: Let's face it, you're expected to be the Bengals punter.
Speaker 1: Do you have to convince yourself that you are that
Speaker 1: same guy that that joined the team on day three
Speaker 1: of training camp? And that you're fighting for a job
Speaker 1: this year.
Speaker 3: I think for me, I've never been like fully content
Speaker 3: at any point in my career, whether that was college
Speaker 3: or high school or especially now in the pros, just
Speaker 3: because I see how quick things can change for your
Speaker 3: good and to your detriment too, and so I think
Speaker 3: complacency is definitely not something that would affect me. I have.
Speaker 3: I have bigger goals for this year than I did
Speaker 3: last year, and I'm just excited to be able to
Speaker 3: showcase what I'm capable of. Because last year it was
Speaker 3: a good year and I was I was excited to
Speaker 3: be a part of it, but at the same time,
Speaker 3: I don't feel like I was performing at my best.
Speaker 3: I feel like I was surviving week to week, and
Speaker 3: so now to be able to have that under my
Speaker 3: belt and be like, Okay, man, I can really do this,
Speaker 3: Like let's show what we're capable of and let's show
Speaker 3: how we can really be a weapon to the team.
Speaker 3: And so going into year two, it's just Okay, we
Speaker 3: start out good, but we can only get better. Like
Speaker 3: that's that's not the peak, that's just the beginning.
Speaker 1: Appreciate your time, Congrats on the new deal, look forward
Speaker 1: to seeing you against.
Speaker 3: Sum Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: As a rookie, Ryan finished ninth in the NFL and
Speaker 1: punting average and sixth in net average. Here's a quick
Speaker 1: reminder that the Bengals Booth podcast is brought to you
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Speaker 1: software provider, by aulta Fiber future proof Fiber Internet designed
Speaker 1: to elevate your home, business and community to a new level,
Speaker 1: and by Kettering Health the best care for the best fan.
Speaker 1: Kettering Health is the official healthcare provider of the Bengals.
Speaker 1: As Bengals fans, were fortunate to have some great content
Speaker 1: creators out there, and one of the absolute best is
Speaker 1: Joe Goodberry. He's been writing and talking about the team
Speaker 1: for more than a decade, and if you're not already
Speaker 1: watching his Bengals on the Brain videos on YouTube presented
Speaker 1: by First Star Logistics, you're missing out on some tremendous content.
Speaker 1: With free agency and the draft approaching, it's the perfect
Speaker 1: time for an in depth conversation. Joe, I have stopped
Speaker 1: counting the number of times that you have written the
Speaker 1: following on Twitter or x quote. If T Higgins sees
Speaker 1: one second of free agency I'll be surprised. That certainly
Speaker 1: suggests that you expect a contract extension to get done.
Speaker 2: Explain why, Well, there's a lot of reasons. Right this
Speaker 2: time feels very different than last year. Number one, the change,
Speaker 2: I would say because with David Mullagata last year and
Speaker 2: in previous situations for the Bengals where they couldn't get
Speaker 2: a deal with Jesse Bates, I think the writing was
Speaker 2: very clear there that there was a disconnect on how
Speaker 2: the contract should be structured, how David Mullagata likes his contracts,
Speaker 2: especially for his veteran free agents, with a lot of
Speaker 2: guarantees and guarantees in the future years, and the Bengals
Speaker 2: don't typically do that outside of Joe Burrow, right, So
Speaker 2: that always seemed to be something that was never going
Speaker 2: to get crossed. And then when you hear in December
Speaker 2: that hey T wants to be here, Joe wants T
Speaker 2: to be here, the team wants T to be here,
Speaker 2: and T has changed his agent to Rocky Arsenal, who
Speaker 2: is Jamar Chase's agent. You go, oh, okay, that's a
Speaker 2: move that raises flags for sure, and you say, okay,
Speaker 2: both sides want it enough to change how your representation
Speaker 2: wants this contract to be laid out. That's big for
Speaker 2: the Bengals, and I think at that point I'm like, okay,
Speaker 2: I expect an extension to happen. But then as free
Speaker 2: agency starts creeping up, I say, wait a second. These
Speaker 2: reports that he could get thirty thirty one thirty two
Speaker 2: million dollars in the open market the second tag, that
Speaker 2: amount has been set as soon as the Bengals place
Speaker 2: the first tag. It's one hundred and twenty percent of
Speaker 2: last year's tags, which makes it twenty six point one
Speaker 2: eight million dollars in twenty twenty five. And if at
Speaker 2: the very least that's the last play you have to
Speaker 2: make as the Bengals, you would do that, Why wouldn't
Speaker 2: I give him twenty six rather than what he would
Speaker 2: get have thirty thirty one thirty two if those numbers
Speaker 2: are correct now, I think that would be the last play.
Speaker 2: And we've already heard reports that that is something the
Speaker 2: Bengals will do if a deal cannot be done reached
Speaker 2: by the time free agency gets here. I think it
Speaker 2: makes too much sense that he never reaches the market.
Speaker 2: And if you look at the top free agents typically
Speaker 2: through past years, they never get a chance to hit
Speaker 2: the open market. The Bengals should not allow it, and
Speaker 2: I don't think they will allow it.
Speaker 1: I've said for a long time that the big question
Speaker 1: to me was never if the Bengals could do the
Speaker 1: but should the Bengals do this? Should they be spending
Speaker 1: that much money on two wide receivers? And I've said
Speaker 1: on this podcast and elsewhere that Joe burrows comments in
Speaker 1: early December, which he referred to alongside the news of
Speaker 1: Tea changing agents, changed my opinion on the subject. I
Speaker 1: think Joe's made the calculated decision in his own mind
Speaker 1: that let's keep the band together on offense, guarantee virtually
Speaker 1: guarantee that we're going to be one of the top
Speaker 1: scoring teams in the NFL, and figure it out on
Speaker 1: defense with younger, cheaper players. Did his comments change your
Speaker 1: opinion at all on the should question?
Speaker 2: I was also looking at it with a football mind
Speaker 2: of is it smart to spend that much? Is it smart?
Speaker 2: Do I need to have two number one type receivers?
Speaker 2: Isn't one of the things with your franchise quarterback when
Speaker 2: he reaches that status of I know he's great. Do
Speaker 2: I need to have all these weapons, or can you
Speaker 2: elevate average players into and to bet we see him
Speaker 2: do that. We see him do it with Trenton Iruwin
Speaker 2: or andre Josubash or the random tight end veteran that
Speaker 2: they bring in every year. Right, they all seem to
Speaker 2: look good when Joe Burrow's throwing them the ball. So
Speaker 2: do I absolutely need t Higgins or would that money
Speaker 2: be better spent elsewhere. It's a fine argument, but once
Speaker 2: your quarterback says, no, we want this guy, well, then fine,
Speaker 2: I've got no problem. If you're saying, our plan is
Speaker 2: keep the players we know are good, that we've developed,
Speaker 2: that have turned into exactly what you've wanted them to
Speaker 2: turn into. And he's still young, and he's going to
Speaker 2: take a Bengals friendly contract, which any you know, time
Speaker 2: you twitch your agent, things happen that we've already discussed.
Speaker 2: I would assume it's going to be something that the
Speaker 2: Bengals are happy with or else neither side's going to
Speaker 2: take this deal. If you're saying all these things or
Speaker 2: what's on the table, I'm not going to argue with that.
Speaker 2: I've come to the conclusion also watching these other teams
Speaker 2: and looking at who's coming out in free agency because
Speaker 2: every year you get there, it's like, okay, this is
Speaker 2: the twenty twenty one draft class, right, this is the
Speaker 2: free agent market, and you say, who are the guys
Speaker 2: that are going to hit this last hit this free
Speaker 2: agent market? And you say, well, it's guys that on
Speaker 2: either teams that are up against the cap or they're
Speaker 2: not that good. They're yeah, they have issues, they've got
Speaker 2: holes in their game, and every player does. But it
Speaker 2: makes me reevaluate when I see who gets extended around
Speaker 2: the league, and I say, you know what, the real
Speaker 2: plan I see these successful teams do is pay your stars,
Speaker 2: figure out the rest, pay your stars, and draft and
Speaker 2: hope for the best and just try to find value
Speaker 2: free agents out there. And if that's your plan for
Speaker 2: the Bengals, and let's face it, I have questioned what
Speaker 2: is the plan since twenty twenty one. It felt like
Speaker 2: let's gear up and get over the hump in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one twenty twenty two type thing, and then twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three was like, yeah, we're not really sure where
Speaker 2: we're kind of in between here, and then twenty twenty
Speaker 2: four was well, let's keep what we have and see
Speaker 2: if we can just get over there, and it's it
Speaker 2: hasn't worked, So now they're at a I think this
Speaker 2: is how we let off the show last year was
Speaker 2: this is the most important off season in Bengals history.
Speaker 2: It feels like we're going to say that for three
Speaker 2: years in a row now, because it is when you
Speaker 2: have Joe Burrow. But if you're saying, hey, now we
Speaker 2: have a plan, and the plan is pay your stars,
Speaker 2: figure out the rest, I'm on board, all right.
Speaker 1: So where do you stand on Trey Hendrickson?
Speaker 2: I also pay him. I think there's been no warning
Speaker 2: signs of decline. That's the thing where I would start
Speaker 2: is because okay, he's the oldest of the trio that
Speaker 2: they're going to try and extend this offseason, and as
Speaker 2: he approaches thirty, you have to look at the history
Speaker 2: of the position. You have to look at every player
Speaker 2: that approaches thirty in the NFL. They're old at that point.
Speaker 2: Even though that makes us feel old. If you're over
Speaker 2: thirty in real life and you hear that, you're like,
Speaker 2: come on, there's got a lot of good years left
Speaker 2: in him. And I agree. But when you look and
Speaker 2: you say, okay, so how is how's he been trending?
Speaker 2: And since he got here in twenty twenty one, Trey
Speaker 2: Henderson has been the best free agent signing in franchise
Speaker 2: history and one of the best probably across the league
Speaker 2: throughout history. You go to four straight Pro Bowls, you're
Speaker 2: up for Defensive Player of the Year this past year,
Speaker 2: first team All Pro. That is great, and he has
Speaker 2: not shown signs of getting worse. And as the defensive
Speaker 2: line is deteriorator around him, it really hasn't affected him
Speaker 2: too much. That tells me he's a creator rather than
Speaker 2: somebody who benefits from the chaos. That's that maybe a
Speaker 2: star player creates. And there's a big difference there when
Speaker 2: you start evaluating players, are they cornerstone players and pieces?
Speaker 2: And I think Trey is The hard part is and
Speaker 2: again we talked about the age and the potential for decline,
Speaker 2: and I don't see signs of it yet, so we're
Speaker 2: probably only talking about a two year extension, maybe it's
Speaker 2: three years total. The hard part is could that money
Speaker 2: be better spent? Same conversation with Ti Higgins, But could
Speaker 2: the money be better spent for a defense that really
Speaker 2: has invested a lot of draft picks? But hasn't gotten
Speaker 2: the return yet and has tried to sign some free
Speaker 2: agents that we'll see if they're here or not. You know,
Speaker 2: Sheldon Rank's probably not here. Geno Stone maybe here. But
Speaker 2: the idea is you need a lot on defense still Kent.
Speaker 2: Do you just say, clean, clean slate, we're starting over
Speaker 2: on defense, new defensive coordinator and will figure it out,
Speaker 2: or do you say, you know what, why would you
Speaker 2: get rid of your best player on defense when you
Speaker 2: don't have to. I think they should come to an agreement.
Speaker 2: I think I'm not as confident that they will as
Speaker 2: I am with T Higgins or Jamar Chase. Like Jamar
Speaker 2: Chase a field one hundred percent, it'll happen. T Higgins,
Speaker 2: if you had to ask me, I have like eighty
Speaker 2: percent that it's going to happen. Trandricks and I feel
Speaker 2: closer to fifty to fifty. And it's because the play
Speaker 2: he put on the field the past two years warrants
Speaker 2: a huge extension. But again, in the age and the situation,
Speaker 2: the Bengals are in on defense and the defense wasn't
Speaker 2: good even though he was great, So really, if he's
Speaker 2: great again, that doesn't change the outcome of the defense,
Speaker 2: you need all of these other parts of the defense
Speaker 2: to be good. It's like if you were to say,
Speaker 2: we'll sign one right guard, that should fix our offensive line.
Speaker 2: No it doesn't. It takes so many pieces on the
Speaker 2: offensive line in order to completely fix it. The defense
Speaker 2: is very similar. One player doesn't make your defense great,
Speaker 2: as we have seen. So there's a little bit of
Speaker 2: a hurle there. But at the same time, if the
Speaker 2: plan is keep your stars, we'll figure out the rest.
Speaker 2: Hope to get lucky in free agency in the draft,
Speaker 2: because let's face it, every team's hoping to get lucky
Speaker 2: in fregency in the draft anyways. So that's not too
Speaker 2: crazy to say, I'm fine with it. Let's pay Trey Hendrickson.
Speaker 2: Let's pay all three of these guys and figure it out.
Speaker 1: You tweeted some historical data where Trey's age is concerned
Speaker 1: recently more or less, making the case that, yes, even
Speaker 1: if he does decline at this age, he's had such
Speaker 1: a stable level of production that he would still be
Speaker 1: worth what they're likely to be paying him over the
Speaker 1: next couple of years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. So if you look at the data
Speaker 2: and say his pass rush win rate will drop, about
Speaker 2: two and a half percent per year. Well, it's so
Speaker 2: good right now, and he's one of the elite players.
Speaker 2: So that's the key factor there is the guys that
Speaker 2: are still playing, the pass rushers that are still playing
Speaker 2: in years eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve around the league,
Speaker 2: they were elite. It's hard to say a B level
Speaker 2: player maintains that throughout his career because it's those guys
Speaker 2: typically don't. It's the guys that are the top five
Speaker 2: picks or the first round picks. And then Trey, who
Speaker 2: is if you look at him from a draft profile,
Speaker 2: had tremendous production, elite athleticism, just went in the third
Speaker 2: round because he went to a small school right and
Speaker 2: has outplayed that completely and they got the Cincinnati and
Speaker 2: has been an elite level for pretty much all of
Speaker 2: four years. Even if he drops it a two point
Speaker 2: five percent password friend rate over the next three years,
Speaker 2: he will still be a pretty good player by that
Speaker 2: last season at thirty one thirty two years old, and
Speaker 2: I think you can stomach that if that's the worst
Speaker 2: case scenario of an extension.
Speaker 1: Joe Goodberry is our guest his Bengals on the Brain
Speaker 1: videos on YouTube, presented by first Star logistics must watch
Speaker 1: for Bengals fans. They're certainly one of my favorite things
Speaker 1: on the internet. The NFL informed teams week that the
Speaker 1: cap is going up by an estimated twenty two million bucks. Naturally,
Speaker 1: you say, okay, well that helps the Bengals. They're trying
Speaker 1: to extend some of their best players. On the other hand,
Speaker 1: does it hurt because teams that have less space than
Speaker 1: the Bengals do now have more money to work with.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Everyone benefits from it when it goes up, right,
Speaker 2: and the players benefit probably the most. I think we'll
Speaker 2: see maybe we always see resets of the market. But
Speaker 2: if someone like Tray Smith, who's the guard, probably sees
Speaker 2: that and goes, oh, yeah, that's good, just gonna bump
Speaker 2: me up even more. I think t Higgins you know
Speaker 2: a similar situation, Jamar Chase. If they're looking at it like, okay,
Speaker 2: Justinjefferson got thirty five million dollars a year last year.
Speaker 2: He and Ceedee Lamb, what's the percentage of the cap
Speaker 2: that they got last year? Because now the CAP's so
Speaker 2: much bigger. If the percentage is equal, maybe I should
Speaker 2: be at thirty nine, Maybe I should be at forty
Speaker 2: and there's arguments for that for players and teams to
Speaker 2: look at percentages of the cap, and I think teams
Speaker 2: do for sure. And I would say what this does
Speaker 2: is teams like the Eagles who are pushing caps into
Speaker 2: future years and really pushing cash over it this year
Speaker 2: and you know in the past few years they have
Speaker 2: but really trying to save themselves from the future that's
Speaker 2: eventually coming. They when they see the cap exploding like this,
Speaker 2: they go, We're gonna be fine. We're gonna be perfectly fine.
Speaker 2: This this hit. Probably when it does come in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty eight, twenty nine, thirty, it's probably not gonna be
Speaker 2: so bad because by then I think the next TV
Speaker 2: contract is twenty twenty nine. So it's just the cap
Speaker 2: is going to keep exploding. It's good when you see this.
Speaker 2: It means the NFL business is booming, players are going
Speaker 2: to get paid a ton, and the Bengals can do
Speaker 2: whatever they want. They have a ton of cap space
Speaker 2: this offseason.
Speaker 1: So the Bengals used to be criticized for not being
Speaker 1: active in free agency. Then they signed DJ Reider, Trey Hendrickson,
Speaker 1: Mike Hilton, Orlando Brown Junior, et cetera, and that criticism
Speaker 1: has mostly gone away, except for a few members of
Speaker 1: the national media who never seemed to pay attention to
Speaker 1: what the Bengals are doing. Pat McAfee used to complain
Speaker 1: about the Bengals not having an indoor facility. Now they
Speaker 1: have one. My point is a lot has changed in
Speaker 1: recent years. But what's next. What would you like to
Speaker 1: see the Bengals do a little bit differently than they do?
Speaker 2: Well, you're leading right into it, and I kind of
Speaker 2: hinted at the last question. It is pushing cash overcap
Speaker 2: at a more aggressive pace. This is something I've been
Speaker 2: asking for since. I want to say that twenty eleven
Speaker 2: CBA started it and showed what could be done, and
Speaker 2: then teams slowly got on board with it, and then
Speaker 2: the last week to the Collective of Bargaining agreement you
Speaker 2: saw it even more. And now the Eagles are the
Speaker 2: gold standard. I was happy for them to win, not
Speaker 2: just because they beat the Chiefs. I think some Bengals
Speaker 2: fans may be in the same boat there with me,
Speaker 2: but because the way they do things feels aggressive if
Speaker 2: you don't know exactly what's going on here, But actually
Speaker 2: it's just math and it makes a ton of sense.
Speaker 2: Let's think of it this way. If I gave two
Speaker 2: contras that we're worth, let's just say ten million dollars, Okay,
Speaker 2: ten million per year. You don't have to make the
Speaker 2: cap pit ten million every year, right. The cap pit
Speaker 2: just has to equal at the end the amount of
Speaker 2: the total deal. So if it's five years, fifty million,
Speaker 2: ten million per year. The Bengals typically like to keep
Speaker 2: their cappits even every year, so they may be around
Speaker 2: ten every single year for five years. The Eagles will say, Okay,
Speaker 2: we gave that same deal out, but we're not gonna
Speaker 2: make it ten million dollars this year. We're gonna make
Speaker 2: the cap pit this year as small as possible, and
Speaker 2: we're gonna make the cappits in the future as big
Speaker 2: as possible. And then when they get close to that
Speaker 2: big cappit, they're going to restructure that player's deal, which
Speaker 2: means we're gonna take your cap pit, We're gonna give
Speaker 2: you a bonus that's equivalent to that cappit minus the
Speaker 2: base salary, and now we're gonna spread Say so you
Speaker 2: have two years left on the deal that the Eagles
Speaker 2: would restructure and renegotiate, they can add three void years
Speaker 2: at the end and spread out that signing bonus now
Speaker 2: over the course of five years, so they'll push that
Speaker 2: cappit down. Now, think of it this way from meth perspective.
Speaker 2: If the cap is three hundred million this year and
Speaker 2: it goes up to three hundred and twenty five next year,
Speaker 2: well that ten million this year is in your ten
Speaker 2: million in twenty twenty six. If I keep it even
Speaker 2: every year, the percentage is dropping each year, right, the
Speaker 2: percentage of the cap is dropping. But for the Eagles,
Speaker 2: they'll keep it increasing, so that for them the percentage
Speaker 2: really never changes. They're spending the same amount of money
Speaker 2: every year, even though the cap HiT's going up each year.
Speaker 2: For them, it doesn't affect them. It doesn't bother them
Speaker 2: to do that, to push a little bit of cash
Speaker 2: over cap. And the Eagles, when you look at their history,
Speaker 2: they've done this under Howie Roseman three times now. When
Speaker 2: they went to this rule in twenty seventeen, twenty twenty two,
Speaker 2: and then this past year. It's almost three different builds
Speaker 2: in three different free agent signings and waves and classes
Speaker 2: that they've done. And once they do that, they packed
Speaker 2: the roster full. You look, I think Saquon Barkley's The
Speaker 2: best example is cap pit this year was three and
Speaker 2: a half million dollars, but yeah, he had the highest
Speaker 2: running back contract in the league. You can push it forward,
Speaker 2: you can push it to the end, and the Bengals
Speaker 2: should do it a little bit. They don't use They
Speaker 2: put a little bit of void years on that to
Speaker 2: Joe Burrow's contract. They put a weird void year at
Speaker 2: the end of Riley Reefs one year deals really didn't
Speaker 2: make sense. They were it looked like they were tinkering
Speaker 2: with it and just seeing how it works. I would
Speaker 2: love to see it. I would love to see them
Speaker 2: do this more often, restructure. They never really technically restructured
Speaker 2: a contract and pushed cash and converted it into a
Speaker 2: signing bonus and lowered the cap pit. These are moves
Speaker 2: that are going to have to make or else you're
Speaker 2: trying to compete with the Eagles and these other teams.
Speaker 2: With one hand behind your back, you're saying, we're not
Speaker 2: maximizing the cap space and the roster the way these
Speaker 2: other super aggressive teams are. And I would love to
Speaker 2: just say, if I get at a moment with the Bengals,
Speaker 2: I'd say Joe Burrow twenty eight. The prime is only
Speaker 2: a few more years. He should be good for a
Speaker 2: long time, right, accurately smart, Those things don't change. But
Speaker 2: the prime is here, your windows here. You need to
Speaker 2: push this. If you're ever going to do it, it's now.
Speaker 2: And you've got three guys that want to be Bengals.
Speaker 2: Sign them, extend them, and if you do it the
Speaker 2: right way, you can go out in a free agency
Speaker 2: and you can bring in a host of players that
Speaker 2: can help your team and push you over the top.
Speaker 1: Joe Goodbarry is our guest. You can follow him on
Speaker 1: Twitter or x at Joe Goodberry. You did an in
Speaker 1: depth Bengals on the Brain recently where you discussed veterans
Speaker 1: that could be or should be, in your opinion, cut
Speaker 1: to create additional cap space. What players do you think
Speaker 1: are highly likely to be cap casualties.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll start from the top, and the biggest savings
Speaker 2: would be Sheldon Rankins. You know, I think Rankins was
Speaker 2: a fine signing at the time. I never thought of
Speaker 2: him as a DJ Reader replacement. They played different positions.
Speaker 2: I think they were looking for more pass rush and
Speaker 2: I think that's going to continue this offseason. As they
Speaker 2: try to help out Henrickson and get more pass rushers
Speaker 2: on this defensive line. It didn't work out, and whatever
Speaker 2: happened at the end there towards the end of the season,
Speaker 2: it is what it is. And hopefully he's healthy and
Speaker 2: everything's okay with Sheldon Rankins, but I believe he will
Speaker 2: be cut, and it's a pretty easy cut. They're gonna
Speaker 2: save a lot of money. I think the next one
Speaker 2: is probably Alex Kappa. Not so much that Kapa has
Speaker 2: been bad. I think Kapla was a good signing from
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two to twenty twenty four. Twenty twenty two
Speaker 2: is really good, twenty three was solid, twenty four was not.
Speaker 2: For whatever reason, the guard play really took a hit
Speaker 2: this past year. Even Cordo Wolson, who was solid, unspectacular,
Speaker 2: maybe slightly below average this past year, was exposed more
Speaker 2: than more than you know he ever has been in
Speaker 2: the past three years, and I was wondering what's going
Speaker 2: on with the guard play. I think Alex Capo is
Speaker 2: a good example of that. I think it's time to
Speaker 2: move on there because spending eight to ten million dollars
Speaker 2: at that position, you should be getting above average play.
Speaker 2: At the very least, and I think the Bengals will
Speaker 2: expect that. That means you need two guards more likely
Speaker 2: in free agency, maybe Freedency and the Dreas. Maybe it's
Speaker 2: three total and you figure out a battle between Cody Ford,
Speaker 2: Corro Wolsen and a couple other guys. But they're gonna
Speaker 2: have some decisions to make at that spot. The next
Speaker 2: guy is Sam Hubbard, And for a lot of these guys,
Speaker 2: to be honest with you, I kind of I get
Speaker 2: the fan base that it's you know, we've had good
Speaker 2: times from twenty twenty one to twenty twenty four, despite
Speaker 2: not making the playoffs last year's there was a lot
Speaker 2: of fun football. They were very entertaining even the last
Speaker 2: two years. But great times in twenty twenty one twenty
Speaker 2: two we've had. Sam Hubbard obviously has been a catalyst
Speaker 2: too many of those. But when the play drops off,
Speaker 2: when you're not staying healthy, when you're approaching that later
Speaker 2: twenties to thirty years old, you have to be aware
Speaker 2: of the decline. And again, like I said, the elite
Speaker 2: players can survive that very often, but the B level
Speaker 2: players sometimes cannot, and Sam Hubbard probably falls in that category.
Speaker 2: And I still think they could bring him back, but
Speaker 2: probably on a very cheap deal, on a one year deal.
Speaker 2: Maybe he's a role player, Maybe he embraces that a
Speaker 2: little bit more than being a guy who's out there
Speaker 2: seventy five percent of the time. Right, so you know,
Speaker 2: we may see Sam Hubbard again. But I think that's
Speaker 2: an easy cut. And then you have to wonder Jermaine
Speaker 2: Pratt asking for the trade. Requesting a trade was that
Speaker 2: because he was already approached with, Hey, we either need
Speaker 2: you to take a pay cut, well, maybe we'll add
Speaker 2: a year to it, but it's a lesser salary, or
Speaker 2: we're probably going to release you. And if you want
Speaker 2: to keep your five point six million dollar salary, the
Speaker 2: best way to do it is probably through a trade,
Speaker 2: right if you're Jermaine Prett. So maybe it's getting a
Speaker 2: seventh or sixth round pick and you get to keep
Speaker 2: your salary. That works for both parties. But again, that's
Speaker 2: another guy. Anytime you needed a play on defense, it
Speaker 2: felt like Jermaine Prett made that play for He could
Speaker 2: be having a game where you're wondering what is going
Speaker 2: on with Jermaine Pratt today, And then they need to
Speaker 2: stop they need someone to rip that ball out, and
Speaker 2: it was always Jermaine Pratt and he was a fun
Speaker 2: guy to root for. So it's sad to see that
Speaker 2: potentially coming to the end. I don't know that that
Speaker 2: means Genos Stone is gone after one year either, even
Speaker 2: though they can save a good chunk of money. The
Speaker 2: free agent class at safety is a mixed bag. I
Speaker 2: don't know that you have to go out there and
Speaker 2: spend another chunk. Stone is still very young. I think
Speaker 2: he's twenty five years old. He's a guy that was
Speaker 2: twenty coming out of the draft, so he's got a
Speaker 2: lot of experience. Still young. I believe he can play better.
Speaker 2: I think we have seen him play better in stretches
Speaker 2: in Cincinnati, but in his career, especially the last couple
Speaker 2: of years in Baltimore. I think if the defensive staff says,
Speaker 2: I think we can get him back to that level,
Speaker 2: I think we get Jordan Battle back to the level
Speaker 2: he looked like as a rookie. I understand why they
Speaker 2: would continue with those two at that position and say
Speaker 2: we'll add a guy, whether in free agency or the draft,
Speaker 2: to be the third safety to take some of these
Speaker 2: snaps as well. But I think the first three are
Speaker 2: the core guys that save you the most money and
Speaker 2: you are likely to move on for from Kappa, Hubbard
Speaker 2: and Sheldon Rankins.
Speaker 1: Joe, what about some of the bengals other free agents
Speaker 1: other than T Higgins and Trey Hendrickson. So we're talking
Speaker 1: Mike Kasicki, Cody Ford, bj Hill, Mike Hilton, Joseph Osai,
Speaker 1: a Team, Davis Gaither. There are some others as well.
Speaker 1: Who would you like to see the Bengals keep from
Speaker 1: that list?
Speaker 2: I would like to see Mike Kaseki retained. I think
Speaker 2: Joe Burrow would as well. It sounds like he's adding
Speaker 2: him into the group of core players on offense that
Speaker 2: he'd like to retain, and I'm fine with that. I
Speaker 2: think Kaseki, especially when see Higgins was out for those
Speaker 2: five games, I thought he stepped up in most of
Speaker 2: those in most of those moments. There were some times
Speaker 2: that if Kaseki probably can come down with a few
Speaker 2: of these balls, the Bengals probably were in the playoffs.
Speaker 2: But overall, I thought he was very good and a
Speaker 2: nice complimentary player on a great contract. It was three
Speaker 2: and a half million dollars last year. He probably gets
Speaker 2: a little bit of a raise with the comfort between
Speaker 2: you know, the team and him now and the quarterback.
Speaker 2: So I don't see that as someone who's going to
Speaker 2: break the bank either and have a ton of interest
Speaker 2: out there. It's I don't feel it's the same as
Speaker 2: when Uzama hit free agency or Hayden Hurst hit free agency.
Speaker 2: I don't think there's a three year, thirty million dollar
Speaker 2: deal waiting for Mike Kaseki. He's had his chances on
Speaker 2: the open market and has never received that from anyone.
Speaker 2: So I think that's that's a guy you could easily
Speaker 2: retain and bring back, especially because I think he's the
Speaker 2: default wide receiver three more than he is actually the
Speaker 2: tight end. Drew Sample actually had more snaps at tight
Speaker 2: end for the Bengals than Mikesecki did when you look
Speaker 2: at it the alignment, So you know, I think that's
Speaker 2: how you keep a trio of wide receivers together, and
Speaker 2: Koseki being the third as kind of a flex offensive
Speaker 2: weapon that can fill in a lot of places. The
Speaker 2: other guys, I'm not sure I took. I felt one
Speaker 2: wain that Duke Tobin spoke at the Senior Bowl about
Speaker 2: maybe retaining these guys a little bit too long. Maybe
Speaker 2: holding onto these guys a little bit too long. The
Speaker 2: Super Bowl team thinking of that, and I thought of
Speaker 2: BJ Hill and Mike Hilton, and I thought, are those
Speaker 2: examples of that? And now these guys are getting older,
Speaker 2: and again you have to worry about the thirty career cliff,
Speaker 2: thirty year old career cliff. How well these guys keep going.
Speaker 2: They've been They've still been good. They really haven't shown
Speaker 2: signs of decline. Like if another team was asking me,
Speaker 2: I'd say, yeah, go ahead and sign those guys. They
Speaker 2: can help you. But I wonder if the Bengals want
Speaker 2: to get better at those spots. Right, if you'se retained
Speaker 2: Bj Hill, I still need a defensive tackle, you still
Speaker 2: need a DT number one. If I keep Mike Hilton,
Speaker 2: it doesn't really change the coverage issues you probably had
Speaker 2: at corner. I still want to get faster. I still
Speaker 2: want guys that can play in man coverage, especially for
Speaker 2: Al Golden's defense. I played a ton of man coverage
Speaker 2: at Notre Dame and I expect En up tick there.
Speaker 2: So is that what you want? Even though Hilton I
Speaker 2: still still think is very good, one of the best
Speaker 2: pound for pound blitzers in the NFL, one of the
Speaker 2: best run defenders on the team, and sure tacklers, and
Speaker 2: a guy who consistently made plays when he was when
Speaker 2: you know he's going forward and it's Derrick Henry and
Speaker 2: he's knifing behind the line and making a stop. So
Speaker 2: I would like to have both those guys if the
Speaker 2: price was right. I just think they'll have markets out there.
Speaker 2: I think other teams will see it and say, you
Speaker 2: know what, we could use the veteran leadership, we could
Speaker 2: use the steady force. We have a defensive tackle number one.
Speaker 2: Let me put bj Hill next to that guy. So
Speaker 2: I think it makes sense for other teams more than
Speaker 2: it does the Bengals. There, I think the Bengals are
Speaker 2: probably looking at a new of those guys like go
Speaker 2: back to you mentioned twenty twenty and twenty twenty one
Speaker 2: type of free agents. They were all Tier three guys
Speaker 2: that were twenty five, twenty six years old, didn't break
Speaker 2: the bank, didn't have a ton of guaranteed money. Perfect
Speaker 2: for the Bengals in free agency, there's a handful of
Speaker 2: those guys available. Again, I think Bengals would love to
Speaker 2: dip back into it and maybe get lucky again. There's
Speaker 2: some luck involved in it. You know, you can easily
Speaker 2: have a Trey Wayne's or maybe a Geno Stone which
Speaker 2: got last year as Sheldon Rankins even though he was older.
Speaker 2: So maybe he doesn't apply to the group I'm talking about.
Speaker 2: But you if you get lucky again, if you find
Speaker 2: another Chidobe, a Woozier, Mike Hilton or Trey Hendrickson, then'd
Speaker 2: be awesome. Your defense will take a huge step forward,
Speaker 2: and I think they'd rather play with that again. Now,
Speaker 2: maybe the one guy that's their own free agent that
Speaker 2: may qualify for that is Joseph Osai, and who's still
Speaker 2: extremely young. He was a young draft prospect, great profile too.
Speaker 2: There's some people that you know, I talk with fans
Speaker 2: every day on Twitter, right and they say development has
Speaker 2: been such a big issue for the Bengals as much
Speaker 2: as has been and I don't know that I agree.
Speaker 2: I have my opinions on these players when they're drafted,
Speaker 2: of what I think the upside is for these guys.
Speaker 2: One guy I loved coming out with Joseph Osai. I
Speaker 2: thought he could have been their second best pass rusher
Speaker 2: to Trey Hendrickson. And if you look at pass rush
Speaker 2: win rate. Over the three years he did play, he
Speaker 2: was their second best pass rusher, but I always felt inconsistent,
Speaker 2: spotty at times, never felt like he got that next
Speaker 2: level despite the flashes. If I was another team, I'd
Speaker 2: be looking my chops at Josephosai. I'd just say, and
Speaker 2: that's a twenty five year old that had had moments
Speaker 2: of really great pass rushes and that has played left
Speaker 2: end right at defensive tackle. If the Bengals could find
Speaker 2: a way to bring him back and say, you know what,
Speaker 2: maybe there's still more meat on this bone and we
Speaker 2: can get it out of him, I would be in
Speaker 2: favor of retaining him. But I think other teams are
Speaker 2: gonna look at it and say, that's a guy we want. Joe.
Speaker 1: The Combines coming up next week. You do extensive draft
Speaker 1: grading every year. Your stuff is awesome. You've already posted
Speaker 1: several video with breakdowns of some of the top defensive
Speaker 1: linemen in this year's class. Did you start with defensive
Speaker 1: line because that's the Bengals' biggest need or because it's
Speaker 1: an especially good group this year?
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know what groups are good until
Speaker 2: I get there. I actually try to refrain from watching
Speaker 2: college football throughout the season. I maybe watch five games
Speaker 2: or so throughout the year because I spend so much
Speaker 2: time on Sunday and Monday and Tuesday and Wednesday doing
Speaker 2: NFL stuff that I wouldn't be fair to my family
Speaker 2: if I'd spend too much time on Saturday as well.
Speaker 2: You understand it. But so I get to the other season.
Speaker 2: I try to treat it like the coaches do. All right,
Speaker 2: this is my first foray, this is my first dive
Speaker 2: in in January, and see who these guys are. So
Speaker 2: I didn't know that the defensive tackle grouping was good.
Speaker 2: I just thought, you know what, here's a bunch of guys.
Speaker 2: We get the data profiles, we get the production profiles
Speaker 2: that we create on our spreadsheet every year that we
Speaker 2: release in April, and a bunch of them were lit
Speaker 2: up in blue, which means that's good. These are past.
Speaker 2: Do you want these guys in the top of the draft.
Speaker 2: And there was five, six, seven of them, and I said, okay,
Speaker 2: I'll start with defensive tackle because number one, it's a
Speaker 2: need for the Bengals they drafted to last year. Chris Jenkins, McKinley, Jackson.
Speaker 2: You would say, okay, that's two premium picks. Do they
Speaker 2: really need a detackle? But even if those guys take
Speaker 2: another step in year two, they probably don't have detackle
Speaker 2: one upside. And I've said that now a few times
Speaker 2: about what kind of guy am I talking about potential
Speaker 2: geno Atkins? A guy that doesn't have to come off
Speaker 2: in the run or pass game. A guy that is explosive,
Speaker 2: can rush the pass, or is a pain in the
Speaker 2: butt to block. They really don't have that even if
Speaker 2: those guys take a step. So I'm looking at this
Speaker 2: class and I go, Okay, there's a bunch that could
Speaker 2: be their first second round. Let me start with that.
Speaker 2: And that's what I did, and I was pleasantly surprised
Speaker 2: with what's out there.
Speaker 1: Of the guys that you've already profiled and Bengals on
Speaker 1: the brain, is there anybody that you are already thinking
Speaker 1: this would be a great choice at seventeen overall?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Obviously Mason Graham from Michigan will be gone, so
Speaker 2: we're not gonna spend time talking about him on the
Speaker 2: consensus board. He's fourth, so we don't expect him to
Speaker 2: even get close. But from there, there's a bunch of
Speaker 2: guys that are in the range, and two of them
Speaker 2: right away are Walter Nolan, defensive tackle at Old Miss.
Speaker 2: He's twenty he's eighteenth on the consensus board. And Kenneth Grant,
Speaker 2: the other defensive tackle from Michigan, more of a big body,
Speaker 2: is twenty fifth on the consensus board as we speak
Speaker 2: right now, so that's right in the range of seventeen.
Speaker 2: But through our others, to me, Derek Harman from Oregon
Speaker 2: looks like Chris Jones. If you're gonna find one of
Speaker 2: those guys that's six five, three ten, that's an athlete
Speaker 2: that's a pain in the butt as a pass rusher,
Speaker 2: just consistently winning and getting into the backfield. His numbers
Speaker 2: would have been crazy. If he could tackle at all.
Speaker 2: I'd say he probably missed five sacks and another eight
Speaker 2: tackles for a loss because he just doesn't break down
Speaker 2: very well and tackle in space. But it was funny
Speaker 2: because Oregon's got another defensive tackle in this class, Jamary Caldwell.
Speaker 2: It's more of a second third, fourth rounder. We'll see
Speaker 2: where he is really steam. The production profile and numbers
Speaker 2: look great for him as well. His tackles and his
Speaker 2: miss tackles are at the bottom of this drivet class
Speaker 2: as well. So maybe the D tackles in Eugene, Oregon
Speaker 2: just do not tackle and do not practice it. And
Speaker 2: if that's the case, that would put me on board
Speaker 2: with Harmon a little bit more. But those three I
Speaker 2: think Nolan and Grant and Harmon. I really like Nolan
Speaker 2: and Harmon because of the pass rush upside, because the
Speaker 2: athleticism that they flash on tape. Grant is different. He's
Speaker 2: three hundred and forty pounds. He's more of the nose
Speaker 2: tackle type, run stuffer type that has a little bit
Speaker 2: of a pass rush profile for that position. The standards
Speaker 2: are different for the D tackles in the nose tackles,
Speaker 2: so Kenneth Grant has a little bit of pass rush
Speaker 2: for a nose tackle. If you're lining them up with
Speaker 2: all the D tackles, you would say he's in the
Speaker 2: average to blow average area as a pass rusher. And
Speaker 2: you want to see those markers even for run defenders,
Speaker 2: because it proves that they have good hands, they have
Speaker 2: good explosiveness, right, they know what they're doing as with
Speaker 2: their hands and with their moves, which you need to
Speaker 2: be able to do as a run defender as well.
Speaker 2: So we're looking at seventeen. Those two first, Walter Nolan,
Speaker 2: Derek Harrman, and then I am interested in Kenneth Grant.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of people that are super high on him.
Speaker 2: I'm not there right now.
Speaker 1: I'll be at the combine for a couple of days
Speaker 1: next week, so I'll definitely be asking questions about those guys.
Speaker 1: The Bengals have made several coaching changes since last season,
Speaker 1: most notably at defensive coordinator. Any thoughts on how an
Speaker 1: l Golden defense will look different from what we've seen
Speaker 1: in recent years under Louena Robo, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Start with the base in the front of the defense.
Speaker 2: Under lou they were very multiple. They were a three
Speaker 2: to four and a five to two principal team a lot.
Speaker 2: I think that shocked people when I would talk about
Speaker 2: it every once in a while. I assume people assume
Speaker 2: we're a four to three team, or the Bengals were
Speaker 2: a four to three team, but they are principal wise,
Speaker 2: they were an odd man front and you saw that.
Speaker 2: That's why DJ Reader was here, That's why Reader was
Speaker 2: so good. He's a nose tackle right. Those are typically
Speaker 2: in three man or five man fronts and watching that
Speaker 2: the Notre Dame defense, they were multiple, but not to
Speaker 2: the same level everyone in college football is, but not
Speaker 2: to the same level that Lo's defense was. So and
Speaker 2: then when Golden guy here, he said, we're going to
Speaker 2: be a base four man front nickel, four two nickel,
Speaker 2: which is the base now, but if we need to,
Speaker 2: we'll be a four to three, you know, probably versus
Speaker 2: the Ravens and Browns, and when those teams are running
Speaker 2: the ball, so that might be their first change. Second
Speaker 2: change is communication. And when I watched the Albama defense
Speaker 2: versus the Bengals defense, and this is college players the NFL,
Speaker 2: I understand that, but Notre Dame, there was no motion.
Speaker 2: There was no uh misdirection or pre snet movement that
Speaker 2: confused them. They seem to pass it off incredibly well,
Speaker 2: very smoothly, reminiscent of how the Bengals did it when
Speaker 2: Jesse Bates and Von Bell were together and now Golden
Speaker 2: was here as well. They would pass the off post
Speaker 2: snap so naturally, and you could see them all point
Speaker 2: together and the whole defense will just rotate with it
Speaker 2: and form a new defense after the snap. And I
Speaker 2: can remember, like the twenty twenty one AFC Championship Ship game,
Speaker 2: and it confused the home so often that he had
Speaker 2: to hold the ball despite guys being open. They just
Speaker 2: it wasn't who he expected to be open because the
Speaker 2: defense changed post snap. And I'd watch Notre Dame defense
Speaker 2: and I'd go, there it is again. They're doing it again.
Speaker 2: They're they're not confused. The communication must be at an
Speaker 2: extremely high level. They must have answers for everything the
Speaker 2: offense is showing them. And then you go back and
Speaker 2: watch the film. I usually do for the Bengals at
Speaker 2: the end of the season. Now go and rewatch key
Speaker 2: points or third downs or big games, and I go,
Speaker 2: they must not have answers for certain situations here. That's
Speaker 2: why they must be finger pointing after this. They must
Speaker 2: be arguing this stuff on the sideline. It's not clear,
Speaker 2: concise and defined. And I think that's the first thing
Speaker 2: El Golden can fix and get these players to play
Speaker 2: a little bit better. We talked about the man coverage
Speaker 2: a little bit in order to tam did it at
Speaker 2: a high rate. NFL you do that if two things.
Speaker 2: If you don't think the offense has the horses to
Speaker 2: beat you on the outside at wide receiver or if
Speaker 2: you think you've got really good corners, we'll see what
Speaker 2: the Bengals feel about that and how and what it
Speaker 2: looks like when they get there, and it could be
Speaker 2: a game per game matchup type thing. But if you
Speaker 2: fix the communication that makes players play faster, play more aggressive,
Speaker 2: play more confidently, I think at the very least, if
Speaker 2: you give them that, the same players should perform at
Speaker 2: a higher level.
Speaker 1: Bengals analyst and content creator Joe Goodbarry has been our guest.
Speaker 1: As I mentioned earlier, you have to check out Bengals
Speaker 1: on the Brain on YouTube presented by First Star Logistics.
Speaker 1: If you're not already doing so, what do we have
Speaker 1: to look forward to in the weeks and months to come.
Speaker 2: Joe who a lot of stuff. We have a free
Speaker 2: agent spreadsheet that has a bunch of great analysts and
Speaker 2: Bengals content creators are doing this with me and we
Speaker 2: do it every year. We will grade these guys and
Speaker 2: give them a tier ranking one through five. One being
Speaker 2: the elite free agencies are the guys that are going
Speaker 2: to get paid a lot of money. Bengals typically don't
Speaker 2: dive into the Tier one free agents, so this is
Speaker 2: good to know. Tier two Tier three, Tier four. Those
Speaker 2: are the guys you want to target. These are the
Speaker 2: guys that are maybe have an issue. Maybe they're a
Speaker 2: little bit older, maybe they're not great against the run,
Speaker 2: whatever the case may be. They've got some flaws in
Speaker 2: their game, maybe they've had injuries. But you'll see their age,
Speaker 2: you'll see their project projected salary, you'll see what tier
Speaker 2: they fall in, You'll see how many snaps they played
Speaker 2: last year, all of these things, and they'll be ranked
Speaker 2: and you'll say, okay, great, these are the free agents
Speaker 2: we should start targeting. These are the guys that fit
Speaker 2: the mold of the Bengals. Twenty five years old, has
Speaker 2: played the last four years and should only get a
Speaker 2: modest contract, perfect for Cincinnati. We'll put them on the
Speaker 2: target list. And then after that, after we're looking at
Speaker 2: how the combine effects these prospects, and then pro days
Speaker 2: and all and visits for the Bengals and around the league.
Speaker 2: We have a draft spreadsheet coming out as well that
Speaker 2: has so much data in it. Evaluations. We watch the tape.
Speaker 2: You know, we got three guys here that are watching
Speaker 2: the tape putting scores on these guys. But then we
Speaker 2: have a production data that's adjusted for what conference they
Speaker 2: play in, what age they are when the production happened,
Speaker 2: and then performance data, which takes a lot of PFF
Speaker 2: data and grading and says, okay, since twenty seventeen, where
Speaker 2: does this guy rank? WHOA, This guy's a ninety eighth
Speaker 2: percentile run defender of all defensive ends since twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2: That is likely to carry over into the NFL. We
Speaker 2: have correlation stats that'll tell us this one carries over
Speaker 2: to the NFL. So if he's scoring well here, he
Speaker 2: probably will in the NFL. This is why he spits
Speaker 2: him out as the first round of giving you arbitrary examples.
Speaker 2: But it's all fun stuff for the next couple of
Speaker 2: months as we prepare.
Speaker 1: Looking forward to it, and hopefully this appearance on the
Speaker 1: Bengals Booth podcast helps you reach one hundred thousand followers.
Speaker 1: I know you're close.
Speaker 2: That would be great.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thanks, Joe, appreciate your time. Joe is very close.
Speaker 1: He has ninety nine point three thousand followers on x
Speaker 1: so he should get to one hundred thous soon. Also,
Speaker 1: I need to make one quick correction. I referred to
Speaker 1: Trey Hendrickson as a free agent and that's obviously not
Speaker 1: the case. Trey has one year left on his current deal,
Speaker 1: a contract the Bengals are hoping to extend. That's going
Speaker 1: to do it for this episode of The Bengals Booth Podcast,
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Speaker 1: more Bengals fans find us. I'm Dan Hord and thanks
Speaker 1: for listening to The Bengals Booth Podcast