1 00:00:15,264 --> 00:00:25,784 Speaker 1: Pushkin. The story of the week is the Pied Piper 2 00:00:25,904 --> 00:00:29,824 Speaker 1: of Psychedelic Toads. By command to Grief from the New Yorker. 3 00:00:36,704 --> 00:00:38,424 Speaker 1: Back in May, a friend of mine invited me to 4 00:00:38,504 --> 00:00:41,064 Speaker 1: a rich person's house in the Hollywood Hills for one 5 00:00:41,064 --> 00:00:44,704 Speaker 1: of these elite all day networking events. I'd gone to 6 00:00:44,744 --> 00:00:48,544 Speaker 1: dinner she'd organized before, and they were fun. A few 7 00:00:48,584 --> 00:00:50,784 Speaker 1: days before I was going to go, she called me 8 00:00:50,824 --> 00:00:54,864 Speaker 1: to give me some more details. It was a mushroom 9 00:00:54,864 --> 00:00:58,984 Speaker 1: party where we were going to take mushrooms and then 10 00:00:59,064 --> 00:01:01,944 Speaker 1: go home and somehow take care of our kids after 11 00:01:02,184 --> 00:01:06,104 Speaker 1: eating mushrooms. This seems to be happening all the time. 12 00:01:06,824 --> 00:01:10,704 Speaker 1: Over the last few years, psychedelics have become weirdly mainstream. 13 00:01:10,904 --> 00:01:13,584 Speaker 1: People I know go to mushroom parties, take trips to 14 00:01:13,624 --> 00:01:16,944 Speaker 1: South America to do ayahuasca and see couples therapists in 15 00:01:16,944 --> 00:01:23,144 Speaker 1: which they bond while on psilocybin. Then there's toad poison 16 00:01:23,264 --> 00:01:26,624 Speaker 1: from the Sonoran Desert. Toad is the Mount Everest of psychedelics. 17 00:01:27,384 --> 00:01:29,184 Speaker 1: The trip can be as short as a half an hour, 18 00:01:29,664 --> 00:01:33,264 Speaker 1: but apparently it's so intense it can wipe out your ego, 19 00:01:33,664 --> 00:01:37,424 Speaker 1: leaving you all alone in the Empty Void kind of 20 00:01:37,464 --> 00:01:41,144 Speaker 1: like hosting a new podcast in twenty twenty two. Nevertheless, 21 00:01:41,384 --> 00:01:45,784 Speaker 1: celebrities like Joe Rogan and Mike Tyson love toad You know, 22 00:01:45,824 --> 00:01:47,384 Speaker 1: once I did, I wanted to do it again and 23 00:01:47,504 --> 00:01:49,904 Speaker 1: again and again, And they say you shouldn't do it 24 00:01:49,944 --> 00:01:52,584 Speaker 1: too much. My way, I gotta, you know, grasp, what's 25 00:01:52,584 --> 00:01:54,944 Speaker 1: going on here? Why am I feeling that? Why? Why 26 00:01:54,944 --> 00:01:57,704 Speaker 1: did this in a weird way that humbled you. I 27 00:01:57,704 --> 00:01:59,224 Speaker 1: don't think you should listen to the people, so you 28 00:01:59,264 --> 00:02:01,144 Speaker 1: shouldn't get it too much. I think you should do 29 00:02:01,184 --> 00:02:02,904 Speaker 1: it as much as you want. That's what I agree 30 00:02:02,944 --> 00:02:05,704 Speaker 1: with too. Yeah, I agree, you could handle it. Apparently 31 00:02:05,824 --> 00:02:08,304 Speaker 1: the ego dissolution doesn't last so long it keeps you 32 00:02:08,344 --> 00:02:11,224 Speaker 1: from going on. Joe Rogan, So, I was pretty excited 33 00:02:11,224 --> 00:02:13,064 Speaker 1: when I saw a story in The New Yorker titled 34 00:02:13,224 --> 00:02:16,784 Speaker 1: The Pied Piper of Psychedelic Toads, and I had a 35 00:02:16,864 --> 00:02:22,744 Speaker 1: lot of questions writing his hard Who's got that kind 36 00:02:22,784 --> 00:02:26,544 Speaker 1: of time when you're already busy trying to be Joe Stein? 37 00:02:26,864 --> 00:02:29,584 Speaker 1: So it turns on a mic mab the Twiddles and 38 00:02:29,664 --> 00:02:32,984 Speaker 1: Knob because a journalist Frand has got in that dual 39 00:02:33,104 --> 00:02:41,224 Speaker 1: Jime Pittory single story Just listen to Smart People Speak Conversation. 40 00:02:41,544 --> 00:02:48,544 Speaker 1: Filming Information is a story up. The story in The 41 00:02:48,544 --> 00:02:51,424 Speaker 1: New Yorker was written by Kamand de Grief. He's a 42 00:02:51,464 --> 00:02:54,624 Speaker 1: South African journalist who often covers the illegal trading of 43 00:02:54,744 --> 00:02:58,064 Speaker 1: endangered animals like abalone, which is how he found the 44 00:02:58,104 --> 00:03:02,304 Speaker 1: Snoran desert toad, which was being foraged for its hallucinogenic properties. 45 00:03:02,784 --> 00:03:05,784 Speaker 1: But that led him to a much weirder story about 46 00:03:05,784 --> 00:03:09,344 Speaker 1: the Number one toad Guru. Okay, so you heard about 47 00:03:09,344 --> 00:03:13,584 Speaker 1: this Mexican doctor named Octavia Reddick who had become like 48 00:03:13,704 --> 00:03:16,704 Speaker 1: the guy you go to to smoke toad. So he 49 00:03:16,824 --> 00:03:20,344 Speaker 1: went down to meet him at his house in Mexico. 50 00:03:20,824 --> 00:03:23,304 Speaker 1: And so, first of all, can you describe what he 51 00:03:24,024 --> 00:03:25,784 Speaker 1: looked like and what he what he was like to 52 00:03:25,784 --> 00:03:31,784 Speaker 1: be around. Yeah, he is good looking. He's kind of 53 00:03:31,864 --> 00:03:35,504 Speaker 1: leanly muscular. He has long, dark hair. He has a 54 00:03:35,504 --> 00:03:39,984 Speaker 1: beard kind of like a telegenic cliche reincarnation of Jesus 55 00:03:40,024 --> 00:03:42,304 Speaker 1: in a sense, like he looks like a guru. He 56 00:03:42,424 --> 00:03:46,464 Speaker 1: looked like every cult leader on all the Netflix documentaries 57 00:03:46,784 --> 00:03:52,344 Speaker 1: about Yeah, besides his good looks, he's very intelligent he's 58 00:03:52,584 --> 00:03:56,864 Speaker 1: very charming. He gives the impression that he really wants 59 00:03:56,864 --> 00:03:58,744 Speaker 1: you to like him in a way that you don't 60 00:03:58,784 --> 00:04:01,984 Speaker 1: dislike him for it. There's something almost quite oh wow, 61 00:04:02,424 --> 00:04:05,464 Speaker 1: there's something quite pure about it. So you liked him 62 00:04:05,504 --> 00:04:08,504 Speaker 1: at times. I liked him very much, and it was 63 00:04:08,664 --> 00:04:10,824 Speaker 1: it was interesting to kind of notice that in myself 64 00:04:11,064 --> 00:04:12,984 Speaker 1: a lot of people like him very much. A lot 65 00:04:12,984 --> 00:04:16,224 Speaker 1: of people venerate him in fact, like a god literally 66 00:04:16,424 --> 00:04:19,224 Speaker 1: some people. And he hates shirts, takes his shirt off 67 00:04:19,304 --> 00:04:24,104 Speaker 1: quite often. Yeah. Octavio, the Guru of Toad, grew up 68 00:04:24,104 --> 00:04:27,264 Speaker 1: in Guadalajara. His dad taught calculus at a college and 69 00:04:27,264 --> 00:04:30,104 Speaker 1: his mom owned a bookstore. He went to medical school, 70 00:04:30,184 --> 00:04:34,344 Speaker 1: got married, had a kid, But then he tried crack cocaine, 71 00:04:34,904 --> 00:04:38,784 Speaker 1: and like many who try crack cocaine, he became addicted. 72 00:04:39,504 --> 00:04:43,104 Speaker 1: His life fell apart completely. At one point, he takes acid, 73 00:04:43,384 --> 00:04:46,144 Speaker 1: picks up a hitchhiker, falls in love with her, and 74 00:04:46,344 --> 00:04:50,264 Speaker 1: ends his marriage. Then, in two thousand and six, a 75 00:04:50,384 --> 00:04:55,024 Speaker 1: friend introduced him to the Toad. Octavio says that as 76 00:04:55,144 --> 00:04:59,144 Speaker 1: soon as he inhaled, his cravings for crack completely went away. 77 00:04:59,264 --> 00:05:03,584 Speaker 1: He found peace and his calling. He kicked his habit, 78 00:05:03,944 --> 00:05:06,384 Speaker 1: he told me, by locking himself in a room and 79 00:05:06,384 --> 00:05:10,264 Speaker 1: smoking toad secretion for an entire year, which is just 80 00:05:11,304 --> 00:05:13,704 Speaker 1: kind of crazy for me to think about that volume 81 00:05:13,824 --> 00:05:18,904 Speaker 1: of psychedelic experience being compressed into a year. But he 82 00:05:18,984 --> 00:05:21,184 Speaker 1: was clean for the first time in years. And then 83 00:05:22,904 --> 00:05:25,544 Speaker 1: you know, he started offering it to friends and giving 84 00:05:25,544 --> 00:05:28,624 Speaker 1: it to other people. This is a weird definition of clean, right, 85 00:05:29,184 --> 00:05:33,944 Speaker 1: Well he wasn't, Yeah, I suppose so. Look like many 86 00:05:33,984 --> 00:05:37,464 Speaker 1: other psychedelics, toad secretion is not in any way chemically 87 00:05:37,504 --> 00:05:43,104 Speaker 1: addictive or it's thought to be very low intoxicity as well, 88 00:05:43,824 --> 00:05:45,904 Speaker 1: so it's not like a thing of cravings. Some people 89 00:05:45,984 --> 00:05:47,784 Speaker 1: just end up using it a lot because I guess 90 00:05:47,824 --> 00:05:51,064 Speaker 1: they like dissolving their ego a lot. I'm not sure. 91 00:05:52,064 --> 00:05:55,344 Speaker 1: I am certainly not someone who would do that myself, 92 00:05:55,344 --> 00:05:58,784 Speaker 1: but a lot of people do. Doctor Octavio got obsessed 93 00:05:58,784 --> 00:06:03,064 Speaker 1: with toad when his brother visited his apartment. He said, quote, 94 00:06:03,584 --> 00:06:05,584 Speaker 1: you would sit on the couch and a toad would 95 00:06:05,624 --> 00:06:08,864 Speaker 1: jump out. He started looking into the history of toad 96 00:06:09,344 --> 00:06:11,704 Speaker 1: and got introduced to this Seri tribe and had them 97 00:06:11,744 --> 00:06:15,624 Speaker 1: try it. The elders there started talking about an ancient 98 00:06:15,664 --> 00:06:19,664 Speaker 1: tradition of smoking toad, and that gave Octavio a sales pitch. 99 00:06:20,464 --> 00:06:23,904 Speaker 1: Octavio got famous by making that very pitch. At a 100 00:06:23,984 --> 00:06:27,864 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen Tedex talk at Bernie Man about smoking toad, 101 00:06:28,464 --> 00:06:31,744 Speaker 1: which sounds like an onion headline. He stood up and 102 00:06:31,784 --> 00:06:37,424 Speaker 1: he said, basically, I healed myself by smoking toad. I've 103 00:06:37,424 --> 00:06:41,024 Speaker 1: discovered myself at this medicine heale of more than three 104 00:06:41,024 --> 00:06:44,904 Speaker 1: and a half years of procopi aliction. And then I 105 00:06:44,944 --> 00:06:49,704 Speaker 1: went and I healed this marginalized Native Mexican community and 106 00:06:50,824 --> 00:06:54,744 Speaker 1: through that work resurrected this practice that had been wiped 107 00:06:54,784 --> 00:06:59,544 Speaker 1: out during the colonial era. Which is about as good 108 00:06:59,544 --> 00:07:02,304 Speaker 1: a pitch for a psychedelic as I think anyone would 109 00:07:02,304 --> 00:07:05,504 Speaker 1: could come up with. And the craziest thing is that 110 00:07:06,224 --> 00:07:08,864 Speaker 1: it might be true. There is no way of knowing 111 00:07:09,104 --> 00:07:12,024 Speaker 1: if it's true. You don't think it's true, though, I 112 00:07:12,064 --> 00:07:14,704 Speaker 1: don't know if it's my place as a non indigenous 113 00:07:14,704 --> 00:07:18,024 Speaker 1: white guy from South Africa to really weigh in. As 114 00:07:18,064 --> 00:07:22,024 Speaker 1: another non indigenous white guy, I will weigh in. Non 115 00:07:22,064 --> 00:07:26,704 Speaker 1: indigenous white people are eager to believe this. We love 116 00:07:26,824 --> 00:07:29,424 Speaker 1: a story about how non white people can teach us 117 00:07:29,464 --> 00:07:33,984 Speaker 1: simple truths. Usually that person's Morgan Freeman. But we'll listen 118 00:07:34,024 --> 00:07:36,944 Speaker 1: to an indigenous tribe if it's an excuse to get high. 119 00:07:37,304 --> 00:07:40,504 Speaker 1: If an indigenous person said, don't build this pipeline, we'd 120 00:07:40,544 --> 00:07:44,424 Speaker 1: never listen. But smoking a toad, we're totally in for that, 121 00:07:45,024 --> 00:07:47,984 Speaker 1: So buy do everyone in the world. This can be 122 00:07:48,384 --> 00:07:52,784 Speaker 1: a direct way to sober sky inside of you that 123 00:07:52,944 --> 00:07:55,944 Speaker 1: you just can't remember, because we are full of so 124 00:07:56,144 --> 00:08:06,464 Speaker 1: they were. Soon after the ted Ex Talk, white people 125 00:08:06,464 --> 00:08:09,424 Speaker 1: with dreadlocks started arriving in the Snoran Desert to smoke 126 00:08:09,504 --> 00:08:14,384 Speaker 1: toad and spend money. Octavia became the world's lead proponent 127 00:08:14,584 --> 00:08:17,904 Speaker 1: and practitioner of toad smoking. Like, if you want to 128 00:08:17,944 --> 00:08:20,104 Speaker 1: go to the top toadsmoking guy in the world, you 129 00:08:20,264 --> 00:08:23,664 Speaker 1: travel to see Octavio, or just wait till he shows 130 00:08:23,744 --> 00:08:26,024 Speaker 1: up with a basket of toads at your all day 131 00:08:26,064 --> 00:08:29,464 Speaker 1: networking event in the Hollywood Hills. Toad smoking needed a 132 00:08:29,584 --> 00:08:34,024 Speaker 1: rock star because it's not inherently appealing, not just because 133 00:08:34,024 --> 00:08:37,464 Speaker 1: of its scary effects, because the idea of it's gross. 134 00:08:37,784 --> 00:08:40,864 Speaker 1: Like you can romanticize eating a mushroom that grew up 135 00:08:40,904 --> 00:08:44,704 Speaker 1: from Mother Earth, but extracting poison from a frog and 136 00:08:44,824 --> 00:08:47,784 Speaker 1: putting that into your body does not seem like a 137 00:08:47,784 --> 00:08:51,664 Speaker 1: good idea. Now, all my knowledge about toad comes either 138 00:08:51,744 --> 00:08:55,744 Speaker 1: from this Michael Pollen book about psychedelics or Beavis and Budded. 139 00:08:56,344 --> 00:09:01,504 Speaker 1: Are you sure you're liking right? Yeah? I don't get it. 140 00:09:01,504 --> 00:09:07,504 Speaker 1: It's supposed to pack an awesome above and the Simpsons, Dad, 141 00:09:07,624 --> 00:09:12,024 Speaker 1: are you linking toads? I'm not licking toad. And in 142 00:09:12,024 --> 00:09:15,144 Speaker 1: those situations people licked the toad, which is what I 143 00:09:15,184 --> 00:09:17,544 Speaker 1: thought you did, But that's not at all what you do. 144 00:09:17,984 --> 00:09:21,904 Speaker 1: If you lick practically any species of toad, you're likely 145 00:09:21,944 --> 00:09:24,064 Speaker 1: to be hospitalized and may die. And some people have 146 00:09:24,224 --> 00:09:27,744 Speaker 1: died from from doing exactly that. So just licking a toad. 147 00:09:27,824 --> 00:09:30,144 Speaker 1: All toads are a little poisonous, Yeah they are. They 148 00:09:30,144 --> 00:09:33,064 Speaker 1: are very choices. But in this case, you grab this 149 00:09:33,144 --> 00:09:36,424 Speaker 1: specific toad, and I watched them do it. You basically 150 00:09:36,464 --> 00:09:38,224 Speaker 1: go to these little bumps on their skin and you 151 00:09:38,264 --> 00:09:41,384 Speaker 1: pop them like zitz, and you put a glass above it, 152 00:09:42,104 --> 00:09:46,384 Speaker 1: and this white kind of ooze sticks to the glass 153 00:09:46,424 --> 00:09:50,824 Speaker 1: and then you dry it and crystallize it and smoke it. Yeah, 154 00:09:50,264 --> 00:09:53,984 Speaker 1: that's okay, And you know the toads don't have the 155 00:09:54,024 --> 00:09:56,584 Speaker 1: best time being picked up and squeezed, especially now that 156 00:09:56,664 --> 00:09:59,064 Speaker 1: so many people are doing it. Some toads are caught 157 00:09:59,104 --> 00:10:02,784 Speaker 1: and handled and squeezed repeatedly to the extent that their 158 00:10:02,864 --> 00:10:06,784 Speaker 1: toad secretion has a kind of pinkish color from drops 159 00:10:06,784 --> 00:10:10,824 Speaker 1: of blood getting into the toad. And you know, these 160 00:10:10,824 --> 00:10:13,304 Speaker 1: toads used to be very abundant in pots of sonora 161 00:10:13,384 --> 00:10:16,424 Speaker 1: in summer they would kind of bloom. And many areas 162 00:10:16,424 --> 00:10:21,184 Speaker 1: where these toads were are now conspicuously absent of toads, 163 00:10:21,584 --> 00:10:24,464 Speaker 1: So there are some concerns that they may be in trouble. 164 00:10:24,664 --> 00:10:27,624 Speaker 1: And to any listeners who are curious about the mind 165 00:10:27,624 --> 00:10:30,944 Speaker 1: bending effects of toad, I would just say that the 166 00:10:31,144 --> 00:10:35,304 Speaker 1: psychoactive compound in toad five emmy o dmt, can be 167 00:10:35,384 --> 00:10:41,424 Speaker 1: synthesized cheaply and safely in laboratories and gives, according to 168 00:10:41,664 --> 00:10:45,184 Speaker 1: a large number of toad smokers, in identical high without 169 00:10:45,184 --> 00:10:47,384 Speaker 1: harming any toads. So there's a lot of people who say, 170 00:10:47,584 --> 00:10:51,104 Speaker 1: smoke synthetic, don't smoke toad. This is the weirdest PSA 171 00:10:51,344 --> 00:10:55,864 Speaker 1: that's ever been done. People, Please, please, for your own safety, 172 00:10:56,024 --> 00:10:59,904 Speaker 1: smoke the synthetic toad, not the real toad. Yes. Yes, 173 00:11:01,024 --> 00:11:03,944 Speaker 1: So the writer kemald de Grief wants to see one 174 00:11:03,944 --> 00:11:06,984 Speaker 1: of these toad smoking sessions in person. He travels to 175 00:11:07,024 --> 00:11:11,304 Speaker 1: this resort Beachtown, to this part airbnb Octavia rented for 176 00:11:11,344 --> 00:11:14,664 Speaker 1: a toad smoking retreat. I'm guessing he didn't put that 177 00:11:14,704 --> 00:11:17,464 Speaker 1: in these emails with a person renting the house. So 178 00:11:17,504 --> 00:11:19,624 Speaker 1: the first time I saw Toad, I walked in. There 179 00:11:19,624 --> 00:11:22,624 Speaker 1: were these oversized doors, and they opened onto this kind 180 00:11:22,664 --> 00:11:26,064 Speaker 1: of terrace overlooking the water, and there was a woman. 181 00:11:26,784 --> 00:11:29,744 Speaker 1: There was someone lying on their back with Octavia and 182 00:11:29,824 --> 00:11:33,424 Speaker 1: three or four other people kneeling over her. There was 183 00:11:33,464 --> 00:11:35,544 Speaker 1: some music playing on a portable speaker, some sort of 184 00:11:36,344 --> 00:11:41,664 Speaker 1: downtemper electronica, and this woman was lying down and whooping 185 00:11:41,744 --> 00:11:45,624 Speaker 1: every now and then, and people were very close around 186 00:11:45,624 --> 00:11:49,184 Speaker 1: her and putting their hands on her. And she ended 187 00:11:49,264 --> 00:11:53,704 Speaker 1: up there entirely randomly because she had matched on a 188 00:11:53,824 --> 00:11:56,864 Speaker 1: dating app with one of the crew like the week before. 189 00:11:56,944 --> 00:12:00,984 Speaker 1: But she was sort of into spirituality and inner work 190 00:12:01,064 --> 00:12:04,624 Speaker 1: and healing. WHOA, those seating apps are even better than 191 00:12:04,624 --> 00:12:09,184 Speaker 1: I thought. Felt like with someone who you should have 192 00:12:09,224 --> 00:12:11,064 Speaker 1: sex with, I'll match you with someone you should smoke 193 00:12:11,144 --> 00:12:14,624 Speaker 1: Toad with that's amazing. I mean she came to me, 194 00:12:14,704 --> 00:12:16,864 Speaker 1: she had tears in her eyes, she was in him. 195 00:12:16,944 --> 00:12:20,464 Speaker 1: She was middle aged, and she kind of gripped me 196 00:12:20,504 --> 00:12:24,064 Speaker 1: by the arm and said, I've never had anything like this. 197 00:12:24,704 --> 00:12:27,384 Speaker 1: It's absolutely amazing. And so that was the first hood 198 00:12:28,224 --> 00:12:32,624 Speaker 1: smoking that I saw in real life after the break 199 00:12:33,264 --> 00:12:36,664 Speaker 1: people die. That was that too dark. I'm new with 200 00:12:36,744 --> 00:12:40,144 Speaker 1: this podcasting teaser stuff, but people do die. I'm not lying. 201 00:12:40,824 --> 00:12:48,344 Speaker 1: We'll be right back now, back to our story. I 202 00:12:48,504 --> 00:12:52,824 Speaker 1: pictured people who administer psychedelics to be sweet hippie types, 203 00:12:52,944 --> 00:12:56,544 Speaker 1: like giving their clients lots of guidance and good vibes, 204 00:12:56,664 --> 00:13:01,704 Speaker 1: lots of you're surrounded by people who love you and roll. 205 00:13:01,784 --> 00:13:05,984 Speaker 1: The way to do this is not how Octavia does it. 206 00:13:06,744 --> 00:13:10,504 Speaker 1: He administers toad like he's Enroal. Patton wanted to keep 207 00:13:10,544 --> 00:13:13,344 Speaker 1: World War two going and marched straight through Germany into 208 00:13:13,344 --> 00:13:17,464 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union, something that Octavio has come to embody 209 00:13:17,624 --> 00:13:20,144 Speaker 1: in the world of toad smoking is a very kind 210 00:13:20,144 --> 00:13:25,304 Speaker 1: of maximalist, freewheeling approach to smoking toad, where you sign 211 00:13:25,344 --> 00:13:28,344 Speaker 1: in an empty form and you know, a few minutes 212 00:13:28,424 --> 00:13:32,384 Speaker 1: later you're around people lighting up and then it's your turn, 213 00:13:32,544 --> 00:13:36,104 Speaker 1: and then you send home, whether that's you know, people 214 00:13:36,144 --> 00:13:39,304 Speaker 1: in their eighties. Octavia has also served toad to children, 215 00:13:39,864 --> 00:13:42,184 Speaker 1: to a five year old, he told me, with the 216 00:13:42,184 --> 00:13:45,624 Speaker 1: permission of the five year old's mother. The other amazing 217 00:13:45,664 --> 00:13:49,304 Speaker 1: thing to me is that Octavia is so aggressive when 218 00:13:49,304 --> 00:13:52,824 Speaker 1: you see him administer this stuff, both in like admonishing 219 00:13:52,864 --> 00:13:55,864 Speaker 1: people to like suck on this pipe harder, but also 220 00:13:55,904 --> 00:13:58,624 Speaker 1: that he doesn't seem to measure out a certain amount. 221 00:13:58,864 --> 00:14:00,864 Speaker 1: He seems to just be kind of winging it. And 222 00:14:00,904 --> 00:14:03,584 Speaker 1: then he like, has you smoke this stuff, and then 223 00:14:03,664 --> 00:14:06,064 Speaker 1: there's a little extra in the bowl when you pass out. 224 00:14:06,104 --> 00:14:08,184 Speaker 1: He just sucks it up himself, like it doesn't seem 225 00:14:08,344 --> 00:14:11,344 Speaker 1: like the way you'd want to have it administered in 226 00:14:11,384 --> 00:14:14,304 Speaker 1: a perfect setting. It's not the way I would want 227 00:14:14,304 --> 00:14:18,024 Speaker 1: to have it administered. But you know, well over ten 228 00:14:18,024 --> 00:14:20,984 Speaker 1: thousand people have had it administered this way. And so 229 00:14:21,344 --> 00:14:24,624 Speaker 1: he serves large doses. They're called breakthrough doses, like to 230 00:14:24,624 --> 00:14:29,504 Speaker 1: break through your ego. He refuses to measure them, and 231 00:14:29,544 --> 00:14:34,784 Speaker 1: then he has a very fixed ideology around what happens 232 00:14:34,784 --> 00:14:39,184 Speaker 1: when people have bad trips. So many people smoked toad 233 00:14:39,224 --> 00:14:42,984 Speaker 1: and have incredible experiences, some people become terrified and you know, 234 00:14:43,024 --> 00:14:45,944 Speaker 1: their body clenches up like they're going through the most 235 00:14:46,024 --> 00:14:51,024 Speaker 1: terrifying experience of their whole life. Octavio's philosophy is that most, 236 00:14:51,544 --> 00:14:54,824 Speaker 1: if not all, challenging experiences on Toad are a product 237 00:14:54,944 --> 00:15:00,224 Speaker 1: of the toad smoker seizing up in fear, and what 238 00:15:00,264 --> 00:15:03,024 Speaker 1: they need to do is be pushed through that fear 239 00:15:03,384 --> 00:15:06,904 Speaker 1: into the glory of the high. That's exactly the way 240 00:15:07,184 --> 00:15:11,144 Speaker 1: Mike Tyson described smoke Toad on Joe Rogan. He said, 241 00:15:11,984 --> 00:15:14,184 Speaker 1: he physically describes us the way he was fighting it 242 00:15:14,224 --> 00:15:16,864 Speaker 1: and fighting it. It comes off you know, you're you're 243 00:15:16,864 --> 00:15:18,664 Speaker 1: so scared. You know, it starts off like this, I 244 00:15:18,744 --> 00:15:27,144 Speaker 1: mean like no, no, no, yeah, hey, I wanted to 245 00:15:27,184 --> 00:15:28,664 Speaker 1: stop now, and like I was like, hey, you're on 246 00:15:28,704 --> 00:15:33,024 Speaker 1: the rhyde. I'm like, no, no, no, yeah. I love it. 247 00:15:33,264 --> 00:15:36,064 Speaker 1: I love you. I love you, I love you. I 248 00:15:36,144 --> 00:15:38,824 Speaker 1: kind of have thought of it as there are certain 249 00:15:39,064 --> 00:15:41,544 Speaker 1: sports coaches who will have the same kind of philosophy 250 00:15:41,584 --> 00:15:43,144 Speaker 1: that to kind of yell at you and push you 251 00:15:43,184 --> 00:15:46,144 Speaker 1: beyond your limit. I think, just as that doesn't work 252 00:15:46,184 --> 00:15:49,064 Speaker 1: for all athletes, it does not seem to work for 253 00:15:49,104 --> 00:15:53,944 Speaker 1: all toadsmokers, and so Octovia has done on video some 254 00:15:54,104 --> 00:15:57,224 Speaker 1: fairly violent looking things, like there's one video of October. 255 00:15:57,264 --> 00:15:59,744 Speaker 1: He used to have a little kind of electric shocking 256 00:15:59,784 --> 00:16:02,064 Speaker 1: device like a taser that he would sort of go 257 00:16:02,104 --> 00:16:06,104 Speaker 1: and like zap people with. Um. He called it a toy. Um. Yeah, 258 00:16:06,264 --> 00:16:10,904 Speaker 1: it's it's why to kind of tell them to stop 259 00:16:10,944 --> 00:16:14,144 Speaker 1: the bullshit and stop sucking around and like, smoke the toad, 260 00:16:14,584 --> 00:16:17,264 Speaker 1: do your toad trap properly? Kind of yeah. So I 261 00:16:17,304 --> 00:16:19,304 Speaker 1: asked him about this when I was with him, and 262 00:16:19,384 --> 00:16:25,664 Speaker 1: he said, it is my role as a practitioner to 263 00:16:25,824 --> 00:16:27,824 Speaker 1: make sure that people get the experience that they came 264 00:16:27,864 --> 00:16:30,904 Speaker 1: to me for. And many people are scared, and many 265 00:16:30,944 --> 00:16:33,704 Speaker 1: people who have gone to other rehabs, and they spent 266 00:16:33,784 --> 00:16:36,144 Speaker 1: a lot of money, and it's time to stop the bullshit. 267 00:16:36,384 --> 00:16:38,064 Speaker 1: That's kind of how he defended it to me. And 268 00:16:38,064 --> 00:16:39,704 Speaker 1: I said, well, you know, what do you say to 269 00:16:39,784 --> 00:16:43,584 Speaker 1: critics who think that this is all precisely not what 270 00:16:43,704 --> 00:16:47,704 Speaker 1: people need during the peak and most vulnerable psychedelic experience 271 00:16:47,704 --> 00:16:50,264 Speaker 1: of their lives. And he was like, well, I've served 272 00:16:50,304 --> 00:16:53,824 Speaker 1: more toad than anyone on the planet, which which is true. 273 00:16:53,904 --> 00:16:55,944 Speaker 1: So he kind of gets to say that he is 274 00:16:55,984 --> 00:16:58,104 Speaker 1: an authority and that he's developed this and that he's 275 00:16:58,104 --> 00:17:02,584 Speaker 1: the one who resurrected this indigenous practice. The video of Octavia, 276 00:17:02,624 --> 00:17:06,984 Speaker 1: you are administering what he calls medicine, looks very different 277 00:17:07,024 --> 00:17:10,744 Speaker 1: from the way this CBS pharmacist explain my prescriptions. And 278 00:17:10,784 --> 00:17:14,584 Speaker 1: it doesn't just look haphazard. It is haphazard, which I 279 00:17:14,664 --> 00:17:17,584 Speaker 1: know because he's faced legal action for awful things that 280 00:17:17,624 --> 00:17:21,624 Speaker 1: have happened during his sessions. In addition to toad secretion, 281 00:17:21,664 --> 00:17:24,784 Speaker 1: Octavia works with a number of other substances, one of 282 00:17:24,824 --> 00:17:30,584 Speaker 1: which is called repair. It's an aggressive tobacco snuff traditionally 283 00:17:30,624 --> 00:17:33,984 Speaker 1: from the Amazon, and you have it blown up your nostrils, 284 00:17:34,104 --> 00:17:38,064 Speaker 1: and he does it to people during their toad trips 285 00:17:38,104 --> 00:17:40,664 Speaker 1: as well, which is something that freaks a lot of 286 00:17:40,704 --> 00:17:43,664 Speaker 1: other people out. Why would you need extra if you're 287 00:17:43,704 --> 00:17:47,624 Speaker 1: already smoking toad. He has theories, but a lot of 288 00:17:47,624 --> 00:17:50,664 Speaker 1: people disagree with them, So he serves repair to a 289 00:17:50,664 --> 00:17:54,464 Speaker 1: lot of people, often to sort of prepare them for toad. 290 00:17:54,544 --> 00:17:56,504 Speaker 1: It's like a kind of a bit of a purgative 291 00:17:57,384 --> 00:18:02,304 Speaker 1: One evening in the Seri village of Punta Chueca, where 292 00:18:02,304 --> 00:18:04,944 Speaker 1: there was a New Year celebration going on, because they 293 00:18:04,984 --> 00:18:10,304 Speaker 1: traditionally celebrate new in July. I saw you give repair 294 00:18:10,624 --> 00:18:13,984 Speaker 1: to these young boys and young men that were kind 295 00:18:14,024 --> 00:18:16,384 Speaker 1: of One of them was fourteen, I found out after us, 296 00:18:16,784 --> 00:18:19,944 Speaker 1: and they all started throwing up, like violently on the 297 00:18:19,984 --> 00:18:23,864 Speaker 1: dirt and kind of lying around moaning. There's a lot 298 00:18:23,904 --> 00:18:30,624 Speaker 1: of stray dogs in Punta Tweka, and the dogs arrived 299 00:18:30,664 --> 00:18:33,224 Speaker 1: and began lapping up the vomit, and I was just like, 300 00:18:33,264 --> 00:18:37,064 Speaker 1: this is a really, really, really fucking weird scene. And 301 00:18:37,104 --> 00:18:39,944 Speaker 1: then there was a man standing there and I went 302 00:18:39,984 --> 00:18:42,024 Speaker 1: to introduce myself to him, and then Octavia came over 303 00:18:42,264 --> 00:18:45,224 Speaker 1: to us, and he had just smoked repair, so his 304 00:18:45,264 --> 00:18:48,264 Speaker 1: eyes were streaming, and he kind of flung his arm 305 00:18:48,344 --> 00:18:51,824 Speaker 1: around the shoulder of this dude and just said to me, 306 00:18:51,944 --> 00:18:54,704 Speaker 1: I love this guy. He just got me off on 307 00:18:54,704 --> 00:18:57,104 Speaker 1: a manslaughter charge. And I was like, this is the 308 00:18:57,184 --> 00:19:03,224 Speaker 1: most insanely baroque environment in which to have this information disclosed. 309 00:19:03,504 --> 00:19:06,664 Speaker 1: And if I read this in any story of mine, 310 00:19:06,704 --> 00:19:10,664 Speaker 1: I would almost certainly assume that the writer was talking 311 00:19:10,664 --> 00:19:13,344 Speaker 1: absolute shit. But I swear to god it happened that way. 312 00:19:17,784 --> 00:19:20,504 Speaker 1: Octavio was charged with manslaughter for the death of a 313 00:19:20,544 --> 00:19:24,024 Speaker 1: Mexican woman who was seeking help for depression. She died 314 00:19:24,104 --> 00:19:27,784 Speaker 1: during a toad smoking trip that he administered. Hers isn't 315 00:19:27,784 --> 00:19:31,264 Speaker 1: the only death linked to Octavio's medical practice. At least 316 00:19:31,304 --> 00:19:33,664 Speaker 1: two other people have died after smoking toad with him, 317 00:19:34,624 --> 00:19:38,224 Speaker 1: and one of Octavio's many girlfriends disappeared after going on 318 00:19:38,304 --> 00:19:41,264 Speaker 1: a walk with him. Divers later found her corpse in 319 00:19:41,304 --> 00:19:44,464 Speaker 1: a body of water. Octavio says her death had nothing 320 00:19:44,504 --> 00:19:47,344 Speaker 1: to do with him, but some people told Kaman in 321 00:19:47,384 --> 00:19:49,944 Speaker 1: the story that she died after they smoked toad together. 322 00:19:50,744 --> 00:19:53,144 Speaker 1: When Kaman asked him if he regretted the people who 323 00:19:53,224 --> 00:19:56,824 Speaker 1: died when he was administering toad to them, he responded, quote, 324 00:19:57,624 --> 00:20:01,424 Speaker 1: they made me a better human being. Octavio has never 325 00:20:01,504 --> 00:20:06,024 Speaker 1: been convicted in any of these cases. They have this 326 00:20:06,944 --> 00:20:09,984 Speaker 1: great quote about smoking to in your story. I'm just 327 00:20:09,984 --> 00:20:12,784 Speaker 1: gonna read for a second. When you come back from 328 00:20:12,824 --> 00:20:16,424 Speaker 1: that and your ego reasserts itself, there's a potential to 329 00:20:16,504 --> 00:20:19,784 Speaker 1: hold onto that belief that there's no difference between you 330 00:20:20,064 --> 00:20:24,424 Speaker 1: and God. Is that what happened to Octavia? Like? Does 331 00:20:24,424 --> 00:20:25,984 Speaker 1: he think he's God? Does he smoke the toad? I 332 00:20:25,984 --> 00:20:28,544 Speaker 1: guess is the best version of my question. Well, the 333 00:20:28,584 --> 00:20:31,304 Speaker 1: person who gave me that quote is a professor of 334 00:20:31,504 --> 00:20:37,224 Speaker 1: psychology and psychiatry who studies psychedelics, and he articulated this 335 00:20:37,424 --> 00:20:41,384 Speaker 1: as a risk kind of more broadly in the field 336 00:20:41,824 --> 00:20:45,784 Speaker 1: of well, I guess a very fine line between ego 337 00:20:45,784 --> 00:20:48,984 Speaker 1: death and becoming one with universe and becoming God and 338 00:20:49,784 --> 00:20:53,344 Speaker 1: what happens afterwards, and how that can potentially give rise 339 00:20:53,384 --> 00:20:59,584 Speaker 1: to a god complex. Certainly, some of Octavia's behavior and 340 00:21:00,824 --> 00:21:07,744 Speaker 1: lack of repentance or remorse or unwillingness to adjust his 341 00:21:07,824 --> 00:21:13,984 Speaker 1: practices does seem to me to stem from an overinflated 342 00:21:14,024 --> 00:21:16,864 Speaker 1: sense of ego. And he's not the only person in 343 00:21:16,904 --> 00:21:19,744 Speaker 1: the toad world like there are a lot of egomaniac 344 00:21:19,944 --> 00:21:23,104 Speaker 1: toad practitioners. So I do think there's something there about 345 00:21:24,944 --> 00:21:29,384 Speaker 1: the fraught business of transcendence for mere mortals like us, 346 00:21:29,464 --> 00:21:32,104 Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, we remain human, 347 00:21:32,664 --> 00:21:35,304 Speaker 1: with all of our flaws and our blind spots and 348 00:21:35,504 --> 00:21:39,584 Speaker 1: our darkness and so on. And that's something that I 349 00:21:39,784 --> 00:21:41,744 Speaker 1: began thinking about quite a lot and have been thinking 350 00:21:41,744 --> 00:21:44,184 Speaker 1: about quite a lot since then. Because you can take 351 00:21:44,184 --> 00:21:47,504 Speaker 1: the toad and you get to level ten on the 352 00:21:47,624 --> 00:21:53,904 Speaker 1: kind of spiritual experience meter. But then you land back 353 00:21:53,944 --> 00:21:57,944 Speaker 1: in yourself, and unlike spiritual practice that has a lifetime 354 00:21:57,944 --> 00:22:01,264 Speaker 1: of training about how to maybe integrate that, this is 355 00:22:01,304 --> 00:22:04,024 Speaker 1: a quick in and quick out. I'm not quite sure 356 00:22:04,584 --> 00:22:08,304 Speaker 1: what it all means. What did I did you get 357 00:22:08,344 --> 00:22:10,144 Speaker 1: in touch with you to the story? Whether you say 358 00:22:11,024 --> 00:22:13,464 Speaker 1: he didn't like the story, he said I'd made it 359 00:22:13,824 --> 00:22:17,224 Speaker 1: a lot of it up and that history will not 360 00:22:17,464 --> 00:22:22,304 Speaker 1: remember me as what did he say? He said, I 361 00:22:22,384 --> 00:22:25,144 Speaker 1: made a lot of stuff up and that sadly I'll 362 00:22:25,184 --> 00:22:27,424 Speaker 1: never amount to anything more than a mediocre reporter. But 363 00:22:27,704 --> 00:22:31,464 Speaker 1: he will be remembered through history, not just in the 364 00:22:31,464 --> 00:22:36,064 Speaker 1: realm of psychedelics, but in medical signs at large for 365 00:22:36,584 --> 00:22:41,264 Speaker 1: his work with five IMMUDMT. And we haven't spoken since then. 366 00:22:41,784 --> 00:22:44,584 Speaker 1: It's such a narcissist response, like history will remember me 367 00:22:44,624 --> 00:22:47,304 Speaker 1: and not you, Like it's it's what Faulkner says when 368 00:22:47,344 --> 00:22:49,624 Speaker 1: he's drunk to his daughter on when she asked him 369 00:22:49,624 --> 00:22:51,904 Speaker 1: not to drink for his birthday. He's like, nobody remembers 370 00:22:51,904 --> 00:22:56,064 Speaker 1: Shakespeare's daughter. That's a horrible Faulkner impression. But it almost 371 00:22:56,104 --> 00:22:57,784 Speaker 1: proves your point that that's what he said to you, 372 00:22:58,704 --> 00:23:03,104 Speaker 1: it was quite on the nose. After meeting me briefly, 373 00:23:03,864 --> 00:23:08,544 Speaker 1: should I or should I not smoke the toad? If 374 00:23:08,584 --> 00:23:10,864 Speaker 1: you haven't on any other psychedetics, I wouldn't make that 375 00:23:10,944 --> 00:23:15,544 Speaker 1: your first jump. Okay, yeah, go enjoy whatever you're doing next. 376 00:23:15,584 --> 00:23:17,944 Speaker 1: I imagine it's smoking toad, but whatever it is all 377 00:23:17,984 --> 00:23:20,104 Speaker 1: the time. I have a great rest of your day. 378 00:23:20,864 --> 00:23:23,064 Speaker 1: And thanks for writing the story. I loved it. Cool. 379 00:23:23,104 --> 00:23:24,504 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on. I have a good one. 380 00:23:27,944 --> 00:23:31,664 Speaker 1: When I was young, my mom told me never smoke 381 00:23:31,744 --> 00:23:34,264 Speaker 1: crystallized frog. Ben, I'm given to you by a former 382 00:23:34,344 --> 00:23:37,904 Speaker 1: crack addict and a Mexican desert. That was a long 383 00:23:37,944 --> 00:23:41,784 Speaker 1: time ago. The rules changed. They're now ways to get 384 00:23:41,824 --> 00:23:45,704 Speaker 1: beyond our own perception, to gaze into a world that's 385 00:23:45,704 --> 00:23:50,624 Speaker 1: for a perspective outside of our own brains. Is that 386 00:23:50,744 --> 00:23:54,304 Speaker 1: worth the risk of death? Most people who's smoked toad 387 00:23:54,784 --> 00:23:59,624 Speaker 1: seemed to say yes. But I'm not an early adopter. 388 00:24:00,544 --> 00:24:04,224 Speaker 1: I don't own any crypto. I wrote this narration myself 389 00:24:04,224 --> 00:24:08,144 Speaker 1: without the help of any artificial intelligence. Let's face it, 390 00:24:09,144 --> 00:24:13,144 Speaker 1: I'm not smoking any toad, at least not until I 391 00:24:13,184 --> 00:24:16,824 Speaker 1: can find a licensed toad therapist who administers legalized toad 392 00:24:16,824 --> 00:24:22,744 Speaker 1: pills and whose name is not Octavio command De Grief's 393 00:24:22,784 --> 00:24:26,064 Speaker 1: story The Pied Piper of Psychedelic Toads was published in 394 00:24:26,104 --> 00:24:31,304 Speaker 1: The New Yorker. At the end of the show, what's 395 00:24:31,344 --> 00:24:34,664 Speaker 1: next for Joel Stein? Maybe He'll take a never poke 396 00:24:34,744 --> 00:24:40,104 Speaker 1: around online. Our show today was produced by Lydia Gencott 397 00:24:40,424 --> 00:24:44,744 Speaker 1: and Nishavencott. It was edited by Robert Smith. Our engineer 398 00:24:44,944 --> 00:24:49,664 Speaker 1: is Amanda kay Wang, our executive producer is Katherine Girardo, 399 00:24:50,304 --> 00:24:54,064 Speaker 1: and our theme song was written and performed by Jonathan Colton. 400 00:24:54,384 --> 00:24:57,024 Speaker 1: And a special thanks to my voice coach Vicky Merrick 401 00:24:57,264 --> 00:25:01,944 Speaker 1: and my consulting producer laurenz Elasnick. To find more Pushkin podcasts, 402 00:25:02,584 --> 00:25:05,984 Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 403 00:25:06,024 --> 00:25:10,424 Speaker 1: listen to your podcasts. I'm Joel Stein in this is 404 00:25:10,464 --> 00:25:14,584 Speaker 1: Story of the Week. Did you smoke the toad? You 405 00:25:14,624 --> 00:25:18,424 Speaker 1: know I've taken to not answering that question, Oh, you 406 00:25:18,504 --> 00:25:21,224 Speaker 1: smoked the toad? How would you think differently of the 407 00:25:21,264 --> 00:25:27,384 Speaker 1: story if I had or hadn't. I guess if it 408 00:25:27,384 --> 00:25:29,224 Speaker 1: were me, I probably would have chickened out, but I 409 00:25:29,264 --> 00:25:31,584 Speaker 1: would have wanted to have smoked the toad. As a journalist, 410 00:25:31,624 --> 00:25:34,784 Speaker 1: I feel like, um, you would have just more information 411 00:25:34,864 --> 00:25:37,424 Speaker 1: you would have gathered. Well we'll never know, but it 412 00:25:37,464 --> 00:25:42,504 Speaker 1: was nice to hear you think that one through coming 413 00:25:42,584 --> 00:25:46,304 Speaker 1: up on Story of the Week. Are you still on Tinder? 414 00:25:46,344 --> 00:25:50,224 Speaker 1: And if so, can we do it together? I am 415 00:25:50,304 --> 00:25:55,024 Speaker 1: still on Tinder? Can we swipe? All? Right? What? What? What? 416 00:25:55,384 --> 00:25:57,744 Speaker 1: Just to start? Wait? Let me see the phone. Is 417 00:25:57,744 --> 00:26:02,424 Speaker 1: it Alec Baldwin? Oh my god? Is this a winner 418 00:26:02,504 --> 00:26:04,384 Speaker 1: or a loser? Well s, I I'll read the bio 419 00:26:04,464 --> 00:26:07,664 Speaker 1: to you because it's just not read the biom looking 420 00:26:07,664 --> 00:26:11,784 Speaker 1: for a submissive female who enjoys being dominant in bed, spanking, 421 00:26:11,864 --> 00:26:14,384 Speaker 1: hair pulling, being told what to do. If that's something 422 00:26:14,384 --> 00:26:18,304 Speaker 1: you enjoy, contact me very forward. That's how we started. 423 00:26:18,504 --> 00:26:20,784 Speaker 1: That was number one