1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,080 Speaker 1: It is absolutely the case that we're going to get 2 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: it with something probably a lot even scarier than COVID nineteen. 3 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: Our ability to respond to those things effectively and quickly 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,639 Speaker 1: is so much better than it was five years ago. 5 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: I mean, so it's an arms race, and we might 6 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: be winning the arms race right now. Malcolm Gladwell is 7 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: a journalist, a public speaker, a podcast host, co founder 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: of a podcast company, and a New York Times bestselling author. 9 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: Gladwell has been on the Time one hundred Most Influential 10 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: People list and as touted as one of Foreign Policy's 11 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: top global thinkers. Stephen Colbert once said that Malcolm says 12 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: things that other people haven't thought of before. And I'm 13 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: very delighted to have him here in my Bedford, New 14 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: York home and on my podcast. Welcome Malcolm. Thank you. 15 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: It's very nice to see you in person. Yes, I 16 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: think I have seen you speak before in person, but 17 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: you we never met in person. So it's a very 18 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 1: exciting and and it's really a droid to talk to 19 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: someone who has managed to take thoughts and put them 20 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: into absolutely clear writing. I mean, I just I'm always 21 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: amazed that you can take the word blink and make 22 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: it into a book that really is meaningful or or 23 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: the tipping point. But first I wanted to talk. I 24 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: had no idea, and I bet our audience doesn't have 25 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: any idea that you love cars. I do. Tell me 26 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: why you love cars? Well, I've always you know how 27 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: every four year old boy is obsessed with cars and 28 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,839 Speaker 1: trucks and tractors. I just never grew out of that phase. 29 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: So it's just the rest of development. There's nothing more 30 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: than that. When I was a kid, when I was 31 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: thirteen years old, I rode away to every car company 32 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: in the world, with the exception of one, which one 33 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: the Russian zill which was not I didn't know how 34 00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: to get in contact with him, but I collected and 35 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: I still have to this day. The promotional brochures on 36 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: every single car made, those big fancy books that they 37 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: put out every year every I think five, I have 38 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: one for every car in the world. How amazing, And 39 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: they're incredible time because you know, back then, more so 40 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: than now, incredible amount of thought and care went into 41 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: the making of these promotional brochures. They were beautiful. The 42 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: photography is so extraordinary, it's extraordinary, and the way they 43 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 1: set it up and they took them on to mountains 44 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: and deserts and all over the world. And the most 45 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: fun ones were the general motors adds back then always 46 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: had it took great pains to put to pair a 47 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: couple with car, so they would imagine what the ideal 48 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: couple was for this particular model of car, and they 49 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 1: would give you. You You know, it was a hilarious I 50 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: mean I was a little kid, so it was kind 51 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: of discovering the world of marketing. I guess it was 52 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: very rare for a car I can't belive we're talking. 53 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: This is so lovely. It's very rare for car ads 54 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: back then to have people in them. It was an America. 55 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: It was very much a Detroit thing. But you wouldn't 56 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: the Germans. You if you looked at the Mercedes brochure 57 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: from the mid seventies, only the engineering, right, Yeah, it 58 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: was a discussion of the engineering. It was a very 59 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: technical picture of the cars kind of inner workings, and 60 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: it was the car in motion on some Bavarian pass. 61 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: But there were no people. I mean, that was not 62 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: They weren't thinking about people in their in their marketing. 63 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: So what do you what do you collect? You collect cars? 64 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: To well to say I collect them as too much. 65 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: I have UM a Pride and Joy, which is a 66 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: two thousand and four BMW M five, which is considered 67 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: the great I have no idea what he's talking about. 68 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: It is the great analog. It's the last great car 69 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: they made before cars were taken over by computers? Is 70 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: it the little one? Was it little to be? I 71 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: must have had that car. You probably did if you 72 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: had a BMW in the I did in the early 73 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: two thousands. This is the card did. This is the car. 74 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: I gave it to my nephew because I didn't, you know, 75 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: I didn't like the air conditioning or the heating. That 76 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: something was your breaking bar. You gave it away, and 77 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: I get well. I gave it to my my nephew. 78 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: He needed a car, all right, he was at yale yea. Yeah, 79 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: I have UM. But I have you know, I have 80 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: these friends. I have several friends, one friend in particular, Dan, 81 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: who has a garage full of the most beautiful cars. 82 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: That's why I lived next door to here. Do you 83 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: know who? Ralph Lauren? Oh? Of course, who has got 84 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 1: a next door? Are you serious? Yes? You want to 85 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: go see his car? Colleps I would. I mean, that's 86 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: he's got one of the great car collections in the world, 87 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: in the world. I'm killed to see that. That's amazing. 88 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 1: I will arrange that be fantastic. Okay, any other thing 89 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 1: you want to say about cars, Well, if you would like, 90 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: I could talk about them forever. But we may want 91 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: to talk about other things. I think we should probably 92 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: talk about who is Malcolm good Well and what has 93 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: he done to to create a great, big buzz in 94 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: the world of thinking. Really, this is all about thinking. 95 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: It's for for me. It is like just incredible. And 96 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: your latest book, The Bomber Mafia. Tell us about that? 97 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 1: Is that your seventh book or eighth book? Can't I 98 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: think I can't remember it six or seven. It grew 99 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 1: out of a I went to Tokyo how many years ago? 100 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: This is three or four years ago. And um, first 101 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: of all, I mean, I'm sure you've been to Tokyo 102 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 1: many times. The most extraordinary city. I may I just 103 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: fell in love with it right away. We're just saying 104 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 1: it matters where you stay. Well, I stayed in this 105 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: little out of the way place, but I spent one 106 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: night in the Amman just to treat myself and good 107 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: it was. I mean, but the high Did you go 108 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 1: up to the top of the high? I didn't, So 109 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: I used to stay only at the Okra, which was 110 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: the traditional Frank Lloyd reightish kind of horizontal hotel. Is 111 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: that the one they tore down down? They knocked down 112 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: and then it's the most fabulous place and only to 113 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: Tommy rooms. You didn't sleep on a western bed, you 114 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: slept only on the on the futons. Yeah. So, but 115 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: then I then I stayed at the Hyatt, which went up. 116 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 1: I don't know. I can't remember how many stories short 117 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: compared to what they're building now in Singapore and elsewhere, 118 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: But what an amazing place. A friend of mine has 119 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: a theory about Japan which I love, which is the 120 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: smaller things get in Japan, the better they are. So 121 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: you you as opposed to nor only when you appreciate 122 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: a new place, you expand your horizons. You look up. 123 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: You could have looking. No, no, no, in Japan, you look, 124 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: you narrow your gaze because their geniuses all in the details. 125 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: Every d you look at Tokyo from afar, you don't understand. 126 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: It looks like any looks like new work, but it's 127 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: anything like Newark. So I my favorite tooky story was 128 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: I was walking down the street and I saw a 129 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: little tie any sign which said in English coffee. I'm 130 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: a residential street. There's no other sign, no evidence whatsoever 131 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: of this coffee shop. But I wanted. I actually wanted 132 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: a cup of coffee. So I spent twenty minutes hunting 133 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: for this coffee shop because it was clear that it 134 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: was somewhere ended up, you know, downstairs, through an alley, upstairs, 135 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: across the courtyard, up you know, down a long corridor, 136 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: and there is an absolutely exquisite room the size of 137 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: this one, with one person in it, young woman. It's gorgeous. 138 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, a minimalist white with a beautiful 139 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: window over a garden. And she made me the greatest 140 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: cup of copy or I had in my life. And 141 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: when I tried to tip her, you know I'm an American, 142 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: she got very offended and I sort of felt like 143 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: I had I mean, it was I can't remember, Yes, 144 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: it was a couple of years, but it was such 145 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: a Japanese experience. It's like they had this exquisite coffee 146 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: house hidden away. You have to spend twenty minutes looking 147 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: for it and then then you and when you find it, 148 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: it's this little jew box. Oh no, I've been to 149 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: Japan many times. It's actually one of my very favorite 150 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: countries to visit. As people are flocking to Italy and 151 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: I have nothing against Italy. I love Italy. I would 152 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: rather go to Japan and discover that coffee shop and 153 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: the little sushi restaurant hidden away someplace, or the or 154 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: the oldest tree on Yakushima Island. I mean, that's what 155 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: I go for. It's it's an amazingly beautiful country. And 156 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: so so you were visiting their way, I happened to 157 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: go to this little museum um a private museum in 158 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: what looked like a dentist's office in way in some 159 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: distant corner of of of East Tokyo, and it was 160 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: a museum dedicated to it's called the Center for the 161 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: Bombing of Tokyo or something, and it was it was 162 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: a kind of the most homespun um d i y 163 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: museum you've ever seen, you know, things on print, you know, 164 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: print out computer print outs and photocopy things and scale 165 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: models of things. And it was a record of the 166 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: night that the US Air Force fire bomb Tokyo, in 167 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: March of nine. It maybe the day where more people 168 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: died in a wartime action than any single day in history. 169 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: UM certainly in the Second World War, hundred thousand people 170 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: as many of the hundred thousand people were killed in 171 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: this um with B twenty nine's dropping napalm. They napalm 172 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: to Tokyo in the spring of h was when was 173 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 1: the bomb dropped on hero Shima in the fall of 174 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: forty five, So this is right before the dropping of 175 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: the two nuclear bombs on Nagasaki. In Hirishima was the 176 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: consequence of the failure of the fire bombing campaign of 177 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 1: the summer of nine to bring to bring uh to 178 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: force Japan to surrender. They wouldn't surrender. So I went 179 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: to this place and I knew nothing about this history, 180 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: and I found the experience going to the museum so 181 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: moving that I thought I would love to tell the 182 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: story of that night. And of course the story of 183 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,719 Speaker 1: that night. The minute you commit yourself to telling the 184 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: story of one night in a war, then you get 185 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: pulled in a million different directions. In the bottom off, 186 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: he is the kind of that I worked backwards from 187 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: that night and told you basically, try to tell the 188 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: story of how was it that America decided to burn 189 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: some huge portion of Tokyo to the ground with napalm 190 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: in the SPRINGTI that is the fortress awfullest kind of 191 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: thing to do, right, Yeah, it's a it's a. It 192 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: is probably the darkest moment for the United States of 193 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: the Second World War. UM, it may have been. There's 194 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: an argument that I make in the book, not that 195 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,599 Speaker 1: I'm endorsed, but I just the book is not intended 196 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: to be a kind of It's not my theory on 197 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: the war. It's very descriptive. I'm trying to dis I 198 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: have a struggle between two men, Curtis the may and 199 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: I got into Haywood Hansel, who had two radicate different 200 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: ideas about how to pursue the war against Japan. And 201 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: they were polar opposites, and they hated each other and 202 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: they did it. They're both Americans, both Americans, are they 203 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: both generals, both generals, and Haywood Hansel is in charge 204 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: of the air war against Japan, and he tries it 205 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: his way and fails. And that was the atom bombs. 206 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 1: That was no he he wanted to He had a 207 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: whole idea that you didn't uh. He believed in precision bombing. 208 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: Hit this notion you can bring your enemy to his 209 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: knees just by selectively bombing very critical industries, you know, aqueducts, 210 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,479 Speaker 1: power stations. You don't you don't have to kill any civilians. 211 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,719 Speaker 1: You don't have to destroy a city. That was sort 212 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: of a nice, nice way. It was the Yes, it's 213 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: the most humane way. It doesn't work, and he's at 214 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: wits end and he gets fired, and they bring in 215 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: his antithesis, this man named Curtis to May, and May 216 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 1: is the man who says, if if the humane way 217 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: doesn't work, I'm going to napalm Tokyo and burn to 218 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: the ground. And that's the book is about that story, 219 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: but of their conflict and also about the use of 220 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: airplanes in war. Yeah, it gets because you quickly once 221 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: you start from the premise. You know. It begins in 222 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: Alabama because a group of these visionaries in the Air 223 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: Force moved to Montgomery, Alabama in the mid nineteen thirties 224 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: because they want to be as far away as possible 225 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: from washing in d C. And they try to They 226 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: sit at Maxwell Air Force Base. If you've been to Montgomery, 227 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: by the way, I have been to concomery. But I 228 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: haven't been to the Air Force base. Ah, you must 229 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: go to Maxwell. Oh, actually this is a digression, but 230 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: you know this is how much you should go to Maxwell, 231 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: because what it is is it is first of all, 232 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: a time capsule of earlier of the of the Southern. 233 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: It is French colonial um villas for all of the officers. 234 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: So these imagine um these huge oaks, so those Southern oaks. 235 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: So we've got curving streets with these hundred year old 236 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: live oaks and these French colonial villas which are for 237 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: rear the officers. And it goes on for It's like 238 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: street after street after street of these you know, exactly 239 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: as they were in nineteen whatever thirty six when they 240 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: were built. And then you have these forties kind of 241 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: modernist buildings where all the Air Force offices are. It's 242 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: just like you think you've been you've been dropped into 243 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: ninety It's like you could film a movie there and 244 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: you wanted to change the singles. How great, because you know, 245 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: you go to other places, like in San Francisco, there's 246 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 1: like an army base that looks like that to not 247 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: not not Southern, but more like San Francisco architecture. They 248 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: used to take the idiom of the local architecture, the dormitories, 249 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: and you know, you go to places and it's so 250 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: amazing that they actually in Italy. We just we were 251 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: in Milan and we went to some air Force space 252 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: that they had had with all the hospitals in there, 253 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: in the hospital rooms everything, it's just looked like a 254 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: residential area. It's funny, So that sounds if ever you should, 255 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: you should go and take a little tour of Maxwell 256 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: and the you know, I went there in the summer 257 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: and you know, central Alabama in August is I love, 258 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: actually love it. It's that kind of really close heat 259 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: and that particular smell and the you know, the cicadas 260 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: and the cypress trees, trees. It was the swamps or 261 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: the swamps there, I mean super yeah, it's that whole. 262 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: I mean everything is the swamp. I mean it's so 263 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: humid you step outside and you're sort of drenched in sweat. 264 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: So the people I write about the Bomber Mafia with 265 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: this group of young men who they were in Virginia 266 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: and they felt that they were misunderstood by the Army 267 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: brass and literally said, what is the place we can 268 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: go in America and be as far away, not just 269 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: geographically but intellectually from this orthodoxy we can't stand. So 270 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: they were the ones who started to come up with 271 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: these ideas that bombing selectively would be more humane. So 272 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: they so they DeCamp to Maxwell Air Force in Montgomery, 273 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: which is but in and of itself is such a 274 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: kind of strange. Can you imagine being in Montgomery in 275 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: the thirties and all of a sudden these group of 276 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: young Air Force pilots just kind of land renegades, land 277 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: in the middle of what is the sleepiest, most conservative, 278 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: kind of most retrograde, you know, town in Alabama. So 279 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: it's it's a great story. So then back to what 280 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: was your sister first book, typic Point. Yes, this one 281 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: just put you on the map. This I mean you 282 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: were already uh you know one of the best writers 283 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: that you were born in England. I was educated in Canada, 284 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: and Canada outside Toronto, there's a there's a town called Waterloo, 285 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: which is where the big Canadian science universities, and then 286 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: started to write not only essays, but now this first 287 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: book was published in what year, in two thousand times 288 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: and betraying my advanced years. Yes, fifty eight years old. 289 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: He has accomplished more than most fifty eight year olds ever, ever, 290 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: ever could hope to accomplish. And what made you choose 291 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: chipping point? Well, I had to describe to our listeners 292 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: what because there probably are some, believe it or not, 293 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: that had not read your book. I moved to in 294 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: and in New York was You'll remember this was still 295 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: one of the most dangerous cities in the United States, 296 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: right it was, famously it was so. I remember going 297 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: out with my friends and at the end of the 298 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: evening we would pool our money and figure about how 299 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: everyone was going to get home because it wasn't safe too. 300 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: I had a walk or take the subway. Yet I 301 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: don't see. I don't know where that comes from. I was. 302 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: I felt so safe in New York I did. I 303 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: did not feel unsafe until nine twelve. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, 304 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: we had a that was that was the tipping point 305 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: for me. And then I started to look up. I 306 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: never I never felt like looking up. I just was. 307 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: I was so happy. You never got mugged in New York, 308 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: and I did get mugged once. It's not a pleasant experience, 309 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: but I thought that was just like a kind of 310 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 1: a weird, a weird occurrence. I mean, I knew people 311 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: got mugged, but you know, you're in the big city. Yeah, 312 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: something I was going, what happened? I was going to 313 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,239 Speaker 1: you just reminded me of this. I forgot about this. 314 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: I was going to my publisher with my only copy 315 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: of my manuscript for one of my cookbooks. It was 316 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 1: probably like Quick Cook or Quick Cook menus, I can't remember, 317 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 1: in a big bag. And I was taking a finished manuscript. 318 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: And this is pre computer. You know, we didn't have 319 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: it on I think I had a carbon copy at 320 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 1: home or something. And I was walking across the street. 321 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: They were at that time, they were below forty two 322 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: street on Park Avenue, and I was on the side 323 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: street on carrying this thing, and some man came up 324 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: to me and bashed me on my shoulders from the behind, 325 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: and I dropped my manuscript and I said, I looked around, 326 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: what do you want? And he said I want your money? 327 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: And I said to people were standing around me and 328 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: said help me, please. Nobody would help me. This is 329 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: like three o'clock in the afternoons. Yeah, And I picked 330 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: up my bag and I said, you get out of here, 331 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: and I ran across the street into the building. So 332 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: I didn't give him any money and nothing, but that 333 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: was that was scary. I remember he hit on the shoulder. 334 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: My shoulders hurt for a while. Goodness. Yeah, So that 335 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: was my This is my only muggy. This was not 336 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: sufficient to cause cause you to be scared of New York. No, no, 337 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: because that I mean, you know, any city, go to 338 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: go to Europe, you know, go any place, you would 339 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: get mugged. I got mugged by someone once and he 340 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: said I have a gun, and he had something. He 341 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: had his hand in his jacket pocket and it was 342 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: very clear that it was just his finger, but I 343 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: wasn't certain. And there was his finger. I was maybe 344 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: so I thought, well, there's a two percent chance it 345 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: actually is. It could be a small gun. So so 346 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: I thought about this and then I said, um, I said, 347 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: I'm not going to give my whole wallet, but I 348 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: will give you the money in my wallet. And he 349 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: thought that was a good arrangement, and that was the 350 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: That was the end of it. But so to my story, 351 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: New York in when I got there was statistically at 352 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: least a very unsafe place, and then within three or 353 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: four years. By the late nineties it was one of 354 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: the safest cities in the United States. It was this 355 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: extraordinary transformation, and there was no one who predicted that transformation. 356 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: To the contrary, if you talked to criminologists, they would 357 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: have said, it would be unimaginable that New York would 358 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: ever be a safe place. They couldn't know that if 359 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: if it changed at all, it would take decades. But 360 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: that's not what happened. It turned around in the space 361 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: of three or four years. And then if you ask 362 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: people after it turned around, well, how did that happen? 363 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: No one had an explanation. Even the savvaest criminologists in 364 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: the country. We're like, we're baffled as to why this happened. 365 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: So I was in the middle of this. I was 366 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: working for the Washington Post, and um I left to 367 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,199 Speaker 1: go to the New Yorker, and I was reflecting on 368 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: this transformation, and I realized, Oh, there must be some 369 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: way to explain what happened. I should write a book 370 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: about that. So that was the genesis of the idea 371 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: of the tipping point, which is that social phenomenon can 372 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: behave like epidemics and just you know, an epidemic is 373 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: something that mysteriously goes from zero sixty and no time, 374 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: and then just as mysterious, they can disappear. Think about 375 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: the way the flu comes out of nowhere every winter 376 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: and then it's gone right overnight. So I said, what 377 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: if crime in a place like New York is following 378 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 1: the same logic as contagious disease? And then I thought, well, 379 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: but what if all kinds of things followed that logic? 380 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:18,199 Speaker 1: So what if fashion trends really follow that? What if 381 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: they're contagious phenomenon? So that was what got me thinking. 382 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: And then and the tipping point is simply a is 383 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: the term that you used to describe when an epidemic 384 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,239 Speaker 1: goes from that kind of hidden phase to exploding. And 385 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 1: you wrote so lucidly about that. I mean, it's such 386 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 1: an amazing man. Chipping point became part of our vernacular. 387 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton used it once and I was like, I 388 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: can die happy now Bill Clinton is talking about tipping points. Well, 389 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: everybody has I I can't. I can't imagine any public 390 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: speaker not using tipping point? Is this your favorite book? 391 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite book? It might be talking 392 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 1: to strangers. I don't know. I think I'm talking to strangers. 393 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,719 Speaker 1: What a great, great book tell us about that? That 394 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: one was just that I was struck by how many 395 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: um soften the way my book ideas come come from. 396 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: You know, I was just struck by how many of 397 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: the kind of controversies in the news we're all about 398 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: the same thing. This is a couple years ago. They 399 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 1: were all versions of we're confronted with someone and we 400 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: misinterpret them. So, you know, this was I was thinking 401 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: of the book. I was hatching a book when the 402 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 1: Bernie made Off case was at its height, and it 403 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: was such a classic example of this that a large 404 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: group of people think they know Bernie made off and 405 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: they don't. And the people who think they know Bernie 406 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: made off and you are mistaken, are not naive, They're intelligent, thoughtful, experienced, 407 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 1: they're not well look how many Look how many wealthy, intelligence, 408 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: successful people invested with him exactly, So it's how were 409 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: they taken in by him? So this is what was 410 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: interesting because normally when we see a scam artist, we say, oh, 411 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: a scam artist is someone who takes advantage of the 412 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 1: vulnerable of people who are who don't know anything, are 413 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: easily fooled. Are they're old the bad lage? You know. 414 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: They we come up with all kinds of reasons why 415 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: they were susceptible to being taken in in that way. 416 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: None of those arguments work with pretty made off. He 417 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:26,360 Speaker 1: fooled the Kremla krem and so that makes him really interesting, right, 418 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 1: And then I thought, oh, there's tons of other examples 419 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: of this. You know, in the book I write about 420 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: the case of Jerry Sandusky, the football coach at Penn State, 421 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: who was a pedophile, and he, you know, the the 422 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: people who were taken in by him. The president of 423 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: the university was fooled by him. The Joe Paterno, one 424 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: of the great football coaches of our day, was fooled 425 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 1: by him. These were not people who were There was 426 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: an argument that I strenuously disagree with that said that 427 00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: those people, Joe Paterno, when the president were complex it 428 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: in they were not complicit. The idea that the president 429 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: of university would would look the other way if he 430 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: thought there was a pedophile on the staff of his 431 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 1: school is nonsense. They were fooled by him, and the 432 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 1: same way that people were fooled by Bernie Madoff, and 433 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: the same way that all of us, if we are 434 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: honest about ourselves, we realize that we are also, on 435 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: occasion excessively trusting. And so what I wanted to discover 436 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: all of us? You really think that you can? You 437 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: can put us all in the same bucket human beings. 438 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: So this is the kind of core argument of the book, 439 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: which is this idea by this guy named Tim Leavin. 440 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: It brilliant researcher in in Birmingham, Alabama. His argument is 441 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 1: that we are by nature trusting as human beings, which 442 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 1: is why we have achieved what we've achieved. Right, we 443 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: would never have been able to to build a modern society, 444 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: to form companies, to innovate, to collaborate, to do anything 445 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: of value unless we trusted each other. But the cost 446 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: of that implicit trust that we have for one another 447 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,199 Speaker 1: is that we will occasionally be deceived. On occasion we 448 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 1: are a little too willing to extend the benefit of 449 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: the doubt to people, and that means that Madoff can 450 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: come along every now and again and and and make 451 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: off with our money. Now, the good news, though, is 452 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: that there are vanishingly few Bernie Maynoffs in the world. 453 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: But what Tim would say is that that's the price 454 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: we pay for everything else that's good about the world. 455 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: And if you think about just read all a few 456 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: people that we have to put up with in the world, 457 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: think about your own career. You have gone from one 458 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: thing to the next, where you have built these um organizations, companies, communities, 459 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: all these these things. You've these collaborative things you've done 460 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: over the course everything that you've done has been based 461 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: on trust. Right you also extend that bene to the 462 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: doubt to others. Right that, so I said, the collaborative 463 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: nature of so many of the things to have done 464 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: our evidence that you. Um, if you the people who 465 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: give trust are rewarded with trust. That's a kind of 466 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: a fundamental principle of every now and then a bad 467 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: and were we can't let them ruin it for the 468 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: rest of us. We have to kind of you have 469 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: to say, all right, um, you know I made off 470 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: took me, but that doesn't mean that I have to 471 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 1: I have to assume that everyone who I deal with 472 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: is trying to rip me off. That is not the 473 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: right way to live your life. Right. I wanted to 474 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 1: get back to tipping point just for one second. Did 475 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: you ever when you were writing this book and vision 476 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: a pandemic like COVID nineteen. Well, oddly yes, I did, 477 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 1: because when I was at the Washington Post before I 478 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,239 Speaker 1: wrote Tipping Point, one of the jobs I had was 479 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: that I was I covered the AIDS epidemic for the Post. 480 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: We had a full time reporter covering that, and I 481 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: was covering it at UH, one of the worst stretches, 482 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: so before we had any kind of effective treatment UM. 483 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: And in that, in that period of my life, had 484 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: many long conversations with epidemiologists and biologists. I actually knew. 485 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: I knew Tony Faucci back in the day, back when 486 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: Tony was UM was when his wh I called him 487 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: Tony an extraordinary human being who saw America through two 488 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: you know, devastating epidemics. But if he's spend any time 489 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: at all with virologists, UM, you absolutely entertain the notion 490 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: that there's going to be a big one one day. 491 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: I mean, that's what they've been. They spend their lives 492 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 1: worrying about that and trying to protect us against UM 493 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: that eventuality. So I was I would go down to 494 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: the CDC in Atlanta and they would talk about, you 495 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: know what did a you know there was a moment 496 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: when back in the eighties, when they you know, we 497 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 1: were fearful about how much damage aids, whether HIV could 498 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: spread far and wide as opposed to being confined to 499 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: particular subgroups. Um, when it became clear that HIV was 500 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: not nearly as contagious as we thought it was, then 501 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: the question immediately rose, well, what would it truly contagious 502 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: virus look like? It looked like a lot like COVID 503 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: denteteam by the way, and what do you what do 504 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: you see in the near future for that? Are you 505 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: going to write another book about that or not? My my, 506 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: my good friend Michael Spector, who was also uh covered 507 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 1: hivy with me at the Washington Post, he's doing a 508 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: book right now on vaccines, and so there are other 509 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: better people writing about this. But what he would tell 510 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: you is that although it is absolutely the case that 511 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: we're going to get hit with something probably a lot 512 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: even scarier than COVID nenteen, our ability to respond to 513 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: those things effectively and quickly is so much better than 514 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: it was five years ago. I mean, so it's an 515 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: arms race, and we might be winning the arms race 516 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: right now. So what about you must have thought about 517 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: Ukraine Russia, What do you think? Well, I, you know, 518 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: there's a thing that I follow. There's something called military 519 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: logistics Twitter, which is a group of these military people 520 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: x army guys mostly on Twitter, who are obsessed with logistics. 521 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: All they care about is like, how do you supply 522 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: an army? Do you? You know? They have long Twitter 523 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: threads on they examine a picture of a of a 524 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: tire from a Russian armored car and they'll tell you, 525 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: on the basis of what the tire looks like, what's 526 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: wrong with the Russian army? That those those guys, and 527 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: from the beginning they have been remarkably optimistic about Ukraine's chances, 528 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: even back in March, based on the fact that they 529 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: just think that the Russians, although they have a large army, 530 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: they're just seriously incompetent in in in warmaking and that's 531 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: really been and the Ukrainians, by contrast, are in the 532 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: mind the eyes of these these people that I thought, 533 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: this is Broye the way. The greatest thing about Twitter 534 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,479 Speaker 1: is that you can locate a community of people who 535 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: know insane amounts about a very specific thing, and you 536 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: can follow them. You can get it as if I'm 537 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: talking to these guys every day, you know, me and 538 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of people around the world get access 539 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: to the genius of these people. So they've been pointing 540 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: out that the Russians reading it, of course, but they 541 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: understanding that they're ill prepared. It's a little late in 542 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: today to fix things when you're in the middle of 543 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: a war and nobody's nobody's providing arms for maybe somebody 544 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: is helping them with more armaments. Yeah, they're not being 545 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: supplied with the sort of state of the art equipment 546 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:55,239 Speaker 1: the way that Ukrainians are. What's the focus of your 547 00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: next book. I'm writing a book about m Bradley, remember, 548 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: the mayor of Los Angeles, first African American mayor of 549 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: Los Angeles. And uh, it's a lot of it. It's turning. 550 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: It's turning into a lot about what does it mean 551 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: to be First of all, what was Los Angeles like 552 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,719 Speaker 1: in the forties and fifties, and in particular, what does 553 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: it mean to be black in Los Angeles in the 554 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: forties and fifties. Um, So I'm very very focused on 555 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: his early long before he gets to be mayor. I'm 556 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: very focused on his early days and it's where do 557 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: you grew up with section? He grew up just off 558 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: Central Avenue, So you know, the black community in those 559 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: years was concentrated south of downtown on out side of 560 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 1: the term south central refers to the neighborhoods on out 561 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: the side of Central Avenue. It's been absolutely fascinating. And 562 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: I've been reading about Jackie Robinson because Jackie Robinson is uh, 563 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: you know, black Angelino of that here. It grew up 564 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: in Pasadena, goes to u C. L A. Is friends 565 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: with Tom Bradley there they went to college together. Um. 566 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: So the world of all these people that knew each other, 567 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: that interacted, and that we're all dealing with the same 568 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: issues in l A in those years. And it's been 569 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: I've been listening to all this kind of jazz from 570 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: l A. Because that's the fifties. Of course, it is 571 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: the time when that kind of music was sounds like 572 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: a good movie too. Oh. I think it would be 573 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: an amazing it would be an amazing audiobook because there's 574 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: so much incredible tape of that era and of um 575 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: all these incredible speeches and this is before both of 576 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: our time. But Jack Benny had a radio show in 577 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 1: the We sat at our kitchen table and eighties six 578 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: Old Place and Nottley and listened to Jack did you really? 579 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: We did. We were allowed to listen to Jack Benny, 580 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: to the Shadow, to a lone Ranger, um that Dogwood 581 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: or no Dad would? I mean, there were certain remember Rochester. 582 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: Of course Rochester was his like aide de camp. You know, 583 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: I sidekick Jack Benny is. There's people who don't know 584 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: Jack Benny is one of the great American comedians of 585 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,239 Speaker 1: the very great Yeah, he's up there with you know 586 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: that generation George, Yes, yes, that whole and he had 587 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: a so the Ray. He had this famous radio show, 588 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: and he had a sidekick on radio show. He was 589 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: an actor, a black actor called Eddie Anderson, who played 590 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: Jack Benny's butler. But he was this kind of He 591 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: wasn't a subservient, you know, he was He was outrageous. 592 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: He was outrageous. Eddie Anderson, who played Rochester, was was 593 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,239 Speaker 1: his informal title was the mayor of Central Avenue. So 594 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: he's living in that part of Los Angeles where all 595 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: these people were Tom Bradley, Jackie Robinson, Eddie Anderson, and 596 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: Eddie Anderson is the kind of guy you would go to. 597 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: If you were black in l A in the forties 598 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: and you had a problem, you go to Eddie Anderson. 599 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: He lived at a magnificent house not far from Central Avenue, 600 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: and he had he had a kept He must have 601 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: driven around in a fancy cars. Oh my god. He 602 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: had racehorses, famous race horse called Burnt Cork, which was 603 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: his way of of thumbing his nose at um because 604 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: Burt Cork was what people used the black and her 605 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: face is the midst the whole kind of um. And 606 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: he his way of kind of giving the finger to 607 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 1: that racist tradition. What it was to call his racehorse 608 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: burnt Cork. I mean, he had a sense of humor 609 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: about even that. But that's the world, and that's the 610 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,839 Speaker 1: world I've invented. I have to make a movie. What's 611 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,399 Speaker 1: it called. I haven't come up with the tittle yet 612 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: for the book, but and it changes. I'm only in 613 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,240 Speaker 1: mid book, so it's changing all the time. But I'm 614 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: I'm just interested in this cast of characters and what 615 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,879 Speaker 1: influence they had on the young Tom Bradley, because he's 616 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: a remarkable did you ever meet him? A remarkable, remarkable 617 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: man who has been forgotten? You know. I always say 618 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: they everyone else gets an airport named after them. All 619 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: they need l A X should be Tom Bradley Airport. 620 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: All they named after him was the International Terminal. It's 621 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,879 Speaker 1: such a diss The man was the mayor of Los 622 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: Angeles for twenty years. He is the father of modern 623 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 1: l A. He revived down town l A. He's the 624 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,959 Speaker 1: first African American to be the mayor of a major 625 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: American city where where African Americans were not the majority. 626 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 1: He's an incredible figure in twenties century American politics. And 627 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 1: he's been he's been hidden away um and forgotten, I 628 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 1: think unjustly in Los Angeles. Okay, well that I cannot 629 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 1: wait for the new book. And I'm going to make 630 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: sure it's a movie. I have a part for Snoop 631 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 1: Dogg in that movie. I want to know about Pushkin 632 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: and you're making you're making all kinds of wonderful podcasts 633 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: with this company. And you partnered with one of my 634 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: oldest friends, Jacob Weisberg, who I met in Washington, D c. 635 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: And teen eighty five when he was nineteen, and he 636 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: rented a room from a windowless room, a windowless, un 637 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: air conditioned room for me in the Washington, d C. Summer, 638 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: so he was in retrospect. It was a torturous experience 639 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: for him. But he and I about four years ago, 640 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: three years ago now, UM decided to get together and 641 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,720 Speaker 1: start a little audio company which we call Pushkin and UM. 642 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 1: It was it's to make my novelist after the novelists, 643 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: actually sort of. I had a dog called Pushkin, who 644 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: was named after So who was named after the the 645 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: Russian poet. So it's it's it's it's the Russian poet. 646 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: By you know, one step removed to a dog with 647 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,879 Speaker 1: my first dog, a delightful uh lab. It was actually 648 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: a nut. But so we started this company and we 649 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,959 Speaker 1: make We do my podcast Revisions History, we make audiobooks. 650 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: We do a bunch of other podcasts, um the Happiness Lab, 651 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: Aloi Santos, which has been a big success for us, 652 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 1: and Michael Lewis's podcast Against the Rules, and UM a 653 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 1: whole and bunch of broken record this music podcast that 654 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: we do. When we do audiobooks. For example, we did 655 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: something called Miracle and Wonder I went actually lived not 656 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: far from here, no longer does. But with my friend Bruce, 657 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: we did an audiobook with Paul Simon called Miracle and Wonder, 658 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: and we sat down with him for forty I would 659 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: drive from Hudson to New Cayman. He sold his house 660 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,959 Speaker 1: to Richard Geary. I didn't know that Richard bought it. 661 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: It's a lovely house. This is in the middle of 662 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: the pandemic. I would go there. I must have gone 663 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,320 Speaker 1: there seven or eight times, and Paul, who's such a genius, 664 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 1: would we would meet in his uh in his studio 665 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: and he would just talk and play and we would 666 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: ask him questions, and we use those tapes and created 667 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: this audiobook called Miracle and Wonder, which is one of 668 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,320 Speaker 1: the best things I've ever been associated with. Signing books 669 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,760 Speaker 1: that are not really printed books, but their audio because 670 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 1: they can incorporate the music, they can incorporate speech. Why 671 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 1: would you read about Paul Simon when you can listen 672 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 1: to him? Because you know, the fun part is when 673 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 1: he'd be talking about something and he'd pick up his guitar. 674 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,720 Speaker 1: I used to always say, I would say to Bruce, 675 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: who I did the book with? Its like Paul has 676 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: to have his guitar in his hands because of the 677 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 1: musician he thinks with a guitar in his hands right 678 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 1: and he would so he would be talking and say 679 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: and then I thought of this, and he would play something. 680 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 1: It was just so magical to have this genius in 681 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 1: front of you recreating some moment of inspiration from the audio. 682 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: But it could have also been a documentary. It could 683 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: have been, but it would have been Here's my issue 684 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: with documentaries. There's so much more work involved with the 685 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: documentary documentary that he takes you out of the moment. 686 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 1: I mean, what was fun about us visiting with Paul 687 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 1: is it was really just his engineer, Bruce, me and Paul. 688 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 1: There were no cameraman, there were We weren't stopping every 689 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 1: fifteen minutes to dab someone's forehead and change the tape. 690 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 1: And just like I agree it sounds it sounds like 691 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:09,879 Speaker 1: such a great idea. It was just that kind of 692 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: It was so relaxing and fun. So you get a 693 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: different perspective Paul Simon through an audio book. For an 694 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: audio do you see something closer? I think you give 695 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 1: up something, you don't get to see him, but you 696 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,720 Speaker 1: gain something, which is you gain a kind of intimacy 697 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 1: because we're also relaxing in a moment. But he'll still 698 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 1: has he's done a documentary. He is doing a documentary. 699 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 1: Actually it's I think going to come out this year. 700 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,399 Speaker 1: So you can get you can there's books about get 701 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: everything you want. There's at this point. But and he 702 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 1: deserves all kinds of all kinds of coverage. I love 703 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 1: him so much, I think, he said, I truly think 704 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: he is. He is the great twentieth century American song matter. 705 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone else is on his level. The lyrics, 706 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: just the lyrics, like amazing. Yeah. Now I grew up 707 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: in stomping around the house listening to Paul Simon and Funcle. 708 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 1: It's amazing that he's when you think about he's been 709 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 1: a part of Yeah, he's been a part of your 710 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,399 Speaker 1: entire life. Oh yes, yeah. I mean it's like how 711 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: many artists do you say of that that they are 712 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: they are relevant to you over decades and decades. Elvis, Yeah, 713 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:27,320 Speaker 1: that's windows but but so powerful. I mean I still 714 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: still and Carol King, she was very important to me. 715 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: I have always wanted to interview Carol King. She's fantastic. 716 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: You should know her. I know her, Oh my goodness, 717 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 1: I would love that. You shouldn't do that. I just 718 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 1: think that and he has that raspy, fabulous voice, and 719 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: she's just she's just an incredible person. So you know 720 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 1: that she she tutored Paul Simon in in math when 721 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,319 Speaker 1: they were kids in Queen's I didn't know that. They 722 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,879 Speaker 1: go way wait, wait, way back. They were doing things 723 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: together as teenagers. They were they had some part time 724 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: job and her in her play. I don't remember that. 725 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: I don't think so. But they knew each other from, 726 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 1: you know, from the neighborhood. It's hilarious to think of 727 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,320 Speaker 1: all these people in the same you know, a little world. 728 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: Once at dinner with Bono and Carol Kinge together in 729 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 1: Ireland and Dublin. What a great night that wasn't I 730 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 1: didn't even know. I mean, I'm so naive. I was 731 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,280 Speaker 1: sitting there with these people, and you know how you 732 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 1: think afterwards, oh my god, that's a moment before everybody's 733 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 1: holding up their phones and taking pictures of everybody. But 734 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: what fun that was. But your your work is so 735 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: interesting and you have time to do the podcast which 736 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: are so valuable to so many of us who spend 737 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: time on a treadmill, on a riding a bike around 738 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 1: the countryside listening to podcasts. Podcasts I think are turning 739 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 1: into something very valuable for for the human race, just 740 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 1: because you do get to know subjects more intimately than 741 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 1: you would just reading. And sometimes you can't read. You 742 00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 1: can't read and while you're doing something else, but you 743 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: can list into podcasts. And now with the new the 744 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: new little um Ear Buzz, they promise it doesn't hurt 745 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,840 Speaker 1: your ear drums. You know they're promising it. Do you 746 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 1: believe that kind of I mean, I would be I 747 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,799 Speaker 1: would be, you know, acting against my own interest if 748 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,759 Speaker 1: I discourage people from putting them in. So no, no, 749 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,479 Speaker 1: that I just read a big report that they're not there. 750 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,799 Speaker 1: They are totally harmless to the to the hearing of 751 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: our of our youth. Yeah, the issue is the volume. Yeah, 752 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: ok about itself? Yeah okay, well we'll make a note 753 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: of that for the grandchildren. You don't you want to 754 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:39,359 Speaker 1: be able to talk to when they get old. So well, 755 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 1: it's been so much fun talking to you. We could 756 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 1: go on forever, but I think we've covered a lot 757 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: of territory and I cannot wait for your newest book. 758 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,399 Speaker 1: And I want everybody to know that the latest book, 759 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,320 Speaker 1: The Bomber Mafia, A dream of Temptation in the Longest 760 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,640 Speaker 1: Night of the Second World War is in bookstores right now, 761 00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 1: and of course online you can let's to Malcolm's podcast 762 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 1: Revisionist History and Broken Record wherever you get your podcasts, 763 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 1: and of course you can keep up with Malcolm by 764 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,799 Speaker 1: following him on Twitter. Is your Twitter as interesting as 765 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 1: that bunch of strategists and logistic guys? Oh? No, not 766 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,839 Speaker 1: nearly as interesting. But occasionally I have something nice to say, 767 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:22,400 Speaker 1: I'm sure more than occasionally. And the handle is at Gladwell, Malcolm, 768 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: it has been an absolute pleasure speaking with you today 769 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,400 Speaker 1: and I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much for 770 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: coming all the way from Budson, and I enjoyed it 771 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:47,960 Speaker 1: as well. I say, you've held one of the great 772 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,800 Speaker 1: collections of cook cooks I've ever seen. Oh it's edited 773 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,399 Speaker 1: to I have thousands more, but I keep editing because 774 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,759 Speaker 1: there's so many cookbooks. Do you how many of these 775 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,840 Speaker 1: do you use? Well? I know where they are. I 776 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,399 Speaker 1: know they're all here, and we've used them over the years. 777 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: We've we've we've created recipes now there, So this is 778 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:12,080 Speaker 1: this is references reference. If you had to take one 779 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,160 Speaker 1: with you, one book you're going to you can tell, 780 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 1: really the craziest thing is the joy of cooking. Yeah, 781 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,320 Speaker 1: I'm looking at it. Right there, there's my various editions 782 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 1: of Joy of Cooking, saying