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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time tonight. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong. As always, our body move in is She's

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Speaker 2: out for the week, so we are going to try

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Speaker 2: to fill in the gaps around her body. We hope

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Speaker 2: you have a great trip. Taha, our beloved producer will

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Speaker 2: be joining us for the night, so welcome Taha. And

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Speaker 2: of course Sam and Adam in the control room will

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Speaker 2: be keeping us in check because listen, guys, we made

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Speaker 2: it to Sunday. We hope you had a beautiful, beautiful weekend.

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Speaker 2: It's Sunday, September seventh, and we've got a stack night

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Speaker 2: of headlines, so listen. We've gotten a lot of requests

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Speaker 2: to unpack the Jean Bene Ramsey case. So back in

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Speaker 2: the news, Jean ben a Ramsey's father has really been

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Speaker 2: requesting some new genetic testing to be done because it

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Speaker 2: seems as though the killer could still be out there

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Speaker 2: and there's significant DNA that could prove that once and

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Speaker 2: for all. So he has literally asked President Trump at

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Speaker 2: Crime con this weekend, which is a big crime event

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Speaker 2: happening right now in Denver, to please let this happen.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to unpack all of those details. And

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Speaker 2: also this reality TV star who has been accused of

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Speaker 2: the most gruesome crimes. We're going to get to that

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Speaker 2: story as well. But first, Courtney, I know you have

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Speaker 2: been tracking all weekend the headlines. So where should we begin.

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Speaker 3: Well, we're going to begin in Pennsylvania and this has

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Speaker 3: been all over the news. Five children were rescued, so

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Speaker 3: that is the icing on top of this very ugly cake.

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Speaker 3: Five children have been rescued from a home in Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 3: Allegedly they were locked in a windowless, literally thesis covered room.

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Speaker 3: Police described it as a dungeon and under arrest. Now

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Speaker 3: are their father as well as a stepmother, and they're yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's really it's tough.

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Speaker 2: Have you seen the story at all? Yeah, of course.

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Speaker 2: And what I thought was particularly tough was that you

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Speaker 2: know this particular couple, they have three of the biological children, right,

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Speaker 2: and then there are two from a previous marriage of

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Speaker 2: dad and that previous marriage, there's a mother who has

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Speaker 2: been really crying out saying she's noticing some bruising and

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Speaker 2: she had lost custody to dad. So really like what

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Speaker 2: was she to do? And now you find out that, yeah,

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Speaker 2: Dad's had custody with his new wife, and what a disaster.

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Speaker 2: What a disaster.

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Speaker 3: So about a month ago, Pennsylvania State Police and the

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Speaker 3: Fayette County Children and Youth Services discovered these five children. Again,

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Speaker 3: that's a month ago, and they're between ages of five

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Speaker 3: and fourteen. They were in the squalor we just discussed,

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Speaker 3: and the biological mother of two of them, Rachel Silba,

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Speaker 3: she had come forth with allegations of this just this

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Speaker 3: long standing abuse and her please were not heard. So

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Speaker 3: it took one month from the first visit for the father,

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Speaker 3: James Russell Call, and the mother of three of them

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Speaker 3: who lived in the home, Carly Call, to be arrested.

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Speaker 3: And this was after a second police search of the residents.

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Speaker 3: They are facing multiple charges. They are facing aggravated assault,

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Speaker 3: endangering the welfare of children, reckless endangering another person, and

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Speaker 3: drug position and incapacitation advice and what that specifically means

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Speaker 3: in this case appears to be a taser that were

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Speaker 3: used on the children.

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Speaker 4: A taser on the kids. Wow, yeah, not.

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Speaker 2: Only a taser, but they were kept in what seemed

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Speaker 2: like a dungeon. There were multiple locks, so they were

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Speaker 2: like almost padlocked in. And there's evidence of a surveillance

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Speaker 2: camera within this, you know, air quotes dungeon where they

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Speaker 2: were given limited food that were fleas bugs, you know,

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Speaker 2: all imagine can you imagine why would anybody do this?

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Speaker 2: And then they also had a camera in that room.

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Speaker 2: So dad and messy stepmom and mother of three of

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Speaker 2: those children, could I guess watch and monitor them.

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Speaker 4: That's right, that's horrible. And you said it was almost

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Speaker 4: a month between her call and before something happened.

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Speaker 3: Between a first visit and a second visit, So whether

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Speaker 3: the police were not able to do a full walkthrough

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Speaker 3: or what is clear to me.

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Speaker 4: The sign of this sort of a failed protective system,

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Speaker 4: which is when you think about that, like the mother

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Speaker 4: is actually saying please help, and you're not getting that.

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Speaker 2: It's unbelievable. That's right.

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Speaker 3: And preliminary hearing is scheduled for just ten days from

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Speaker 3: now September seventeenth, and that will be for the parents

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Speaker 3: who are living in the house. Both are being held,

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Speaker 3: thankfully without bail.

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Speaker 2: But also one of the kids was in a wheelchair,

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Speaker 2: if I'm not mistaken correct, So imagine your child is

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Speaker 2: in a wheelchair. So they're already limited, right, so and

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Speaker 2: I'm meaning they're in a cage, a dungeon, and also

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Speaker 2: you know, can't really get around as carefully, and now

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Speaker 2: a taser gun potentially is being used on them, I

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Speaker 2: mean throw away the key. Yeah, oh for these two.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And the son that you mentioned not only uses

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Speaker 3: a wheelchair, he is nonverbal, he is autistic. And his

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Speaker 3: biological mother, Rachel Silba, she alleges that, yeah, the stun

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Speaker 3: gun was used on him in her hair. And this

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Speaker 3: poor biological mother, she lost full custody of her children

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Speaker 3: after a diagnosis of a really severe medical condition and

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Speaker 3: that made a court mandated fifty to fifty custody split happen.

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Speaker 3: So that's kind of but she's had these allegations, some

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Speaker 3: of them going as far back as twenty sixteen, nine years.

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Speaker 2: I mean, listen, this reminds me also of the Travis

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Speaker 2: Decker case that we've been following so carefully. Travis Decker,

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Speaker 2: the accused father of murdering his three beautiful daughters. He

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Speaker 2: still remains at large, or at least if he's passed,

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Speaker 2: nobody has been able to find his body. And again

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Speaker 2: his ex wife, they had a very ironclad co parenting plan.

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Speaker 2: And you know, she had raised her hand many times

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Speaker 2: saying that there was trouble in paradise and she had

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Speaker 2: concerns those were ignored. And and frankly, what a horrible ending.

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Speaker 2: Thank goodness that these kids survived. Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 4: It reminds me of Yeah, I know, it reminds you

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Speaker 4: of the Travis case. This reminds me of that. Remember

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Speaker 4: the Turpin family and exactly they were like chained into

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Speaker 4: the bedrooms or something like that. It was. It's just,

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Speaker 4: I just it's shocking that this happens in this day

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Speaker 4: and age. But it's not the first time we've heard

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Speaker 4: these kind of stories.

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Speaker 3: No, and and with these kind with custody cases in

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Speaker 3: particular Taha. You know you had mentioned is it a

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Speaker 3: failure of system, which maybe it is, but it also

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Speaker 3: once police are in the middle of what can be

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Speaker 3: he said, she said, And I'm painting with a broad brush,

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Speaker 3: but it does absolutely happen that ex spouses want only

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Speaker 3: to hurt their other spouse and broil the police in it.

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Speaker 3: So in this instance, you know, this is a terrible instance.

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Speaker 3: It took a third party who was reporting the abuse

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Speaker 3: to trigger a further it's investigation.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, what a good point, because sometimes,

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Speaker 2: you know, breakups, it becomes war of the roses, right,

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Speaker 2: So how do you determine real abuse from two people

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Speaker 2: who just can't get along and are using the kids

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Speaker 2: as the middle By the way, if you're just joining us,

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Speaker 2: this is true crime tonight. We are talking true crime

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Speaker 2: all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong

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Speaker 2: in Taha House and we're talking about the most unfortunate

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Speaker 2: case of five children who thankfully have been rescued from

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Speaker 2: a very abusive situation. Courtney, what other wonderful headlines do

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Speaker 2: you have for us tonight?

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm not spreading the sunshine, not this Sunday evening.

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Speaker 3: Perhaps later I will be that is the plan, smile.

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Speaker 3: But it's important headlines to keep on top of. And

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Speaker 3: this is Austin Drummond. So, Austin Drummond is a man

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Speaker 3: he's in charge with murdering four members of a family

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Speaker 3: from Tennessee.

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Speaker 2: This happened the end of July.

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Speaker 3: He then fled and left a baby of the family

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Speaker 3: at another location. After a week long manhunt, he was captured.

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Speaker 3: He is now facing charges of murder, kidnapping, firearm possession,

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Speaker 3: and the state is pursuing the death penalty.

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Speaker 2: So the update on.

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Speaker 3: The Drummond case is, there was a preliminary hearing this

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Speaker 3: happened just a couple of days ago, the end of

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Speaker 3: last week, and a judge has ruled that Drummond will

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Speaker 3: face a grand jury for his alleged role in this

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Speaker 3: quadruple murder case. And what is the motive here? Have

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Speaker 3: we heard anything about the why here?

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Speaker 2: There's nothing straight motive.

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Speaker 3: But what has come out is that Drummond was embrailled

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Speaker 3: with a family member of all the family members who

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Speaker 3: was killed, and he was having a romantic relationship with her,

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Speaker 3: and I think that may have something to do with it.

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Speaker 2: Wow. But and this baby just got brought to a

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Speaker 2: different place and survives, thank god, that's right.

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Speaker 3: The baby was what tipped off the investigation. Just strangers

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Speaker 3: and thankfully the correct kind of strangers found a baby

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Speaker 3: abandoned sitting in a car, and they called authorities wow.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, it's really it happened. I mean, it was

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Speaker 3: so confusing. So the victims include a guy named James

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Speaker 3: Matthew Wilson. He was twenty one years old, and really

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Speaker 3: the whole family was wiped out, including James Wilson's partner

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Speaker 3: and child. And yeah, it's just wow, it's a very sad.

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Speaker 3: But Drummond, he seems like a very bad guy to

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Speaker 3: say the absolute least.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess, big shout outs to authorities for being

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Speaker 2: able to finally put a pin in this one. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it happened very quickly.

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Speaker 3: I mean again, the manhunt was only one week long

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Speaker 3: and they found him. He is next going to be

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Speaker 3: scheduled for a court appearance in November, middle of November,

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Speaker 3: and at that time the case is expected to be

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Speaker 3: presented to a grand jury. So you know, we'll continue

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Speaker 3: to see what's happening between now and then. But I

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Speaker 3: think we should have some actual How about a little sunshine.

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Speaker 3: It's late at night, it's a Sunday.

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Speaker 2: Wow, what do you have? Yeah, do you have a

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Speaker 2: little sunshine to share?

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Speaker 4: Mine isn't as sad as the other cases, so it

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Speaker 4: might make you laugh a little bit more. But here's

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Speaker 4: something that I found interesting or amusing. Jeremal Jones was

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Speaker 4: dressed as Chuck E Cheese mascot. You guys know Chuckie

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Speaker 4: of course Chuck E Cheese. Who doesn't, So if you don't, can.

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Speaker 2: You describe Chuck E Cheese just in case?

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Speaker 4: Basically in an oversized mouse if you will, like a

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Speaker 4: big mousehead. It almost I love Chucky human like alphabe

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Speaker 4: but yeah, I do like I do like their food too,

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Speaker 4: video games. But sadly, this Chucky Cheese mascot was arrested

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Speaker 4: during his shift in Tallahassee, Florida, and it was based

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Speaker 4: on charges related to credit card fraud. And there's actually

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Speaker 4: bodycam footage that I actually saw, which is kind of

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Speaker 4: the sad part because you can see the devastated faces

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Speaker 4: of little kids as Chuck E Cheese has handcuffs being

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Speaker 4: put on. Yeah, initially, Chucky is kind of fighting back

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Speaker 4: a little bit. You know, a mouse has caught. They

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Speaker 4: don't like that. But no, how did.

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Speaker 2: I not hear this already? So thank god you're here.

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Speaker 2: So Chuck E Cheese is being Chuck E Cheese. He's

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Speaker 2: in the costume. He's dressed as an oversized mouse. Entertaining

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Speaker 2: children at a Chuck e Cheese and then cops busto

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Speaker 2: for bank fraud and tax fraud.

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Speaker 4: Well it's not as bad as the bank fraud and

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Speaker 4: tax fraud, but basically he was accused of, well there

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Speaker 4: was credit card fraud, specifically losing another person's child support

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Speaker 4: debit card without permission.

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Speaker 2: So well that's sound very good.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the nicest in the world. But he is arrested

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Speaker 4: there and they drag him out, and the poor little kids,

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Speaker 4: one of them you can almost hear saying, not chucky.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, my hero, oh my goodness.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well listen, you behave in the dark, it comes out

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Speaker 2: in the light. By way, if any of you want

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Speaker 2: to jump in join the conversation, if you have any

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Speaker 2: cases that you want to discuss from the weekend eight

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Speaker 2: eight eight three one crime, just please join us absolutely.

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Speaker 4: And remind people to call with their talkbacks, because we've

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Speaker 4: got talkback Tuesday coming up. Where tomorrow almost tomorrow one

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Speaker 4: more Monday, Oh right, Tuesday.

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Speaker 2: I talked back to tuesdayday.

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Speaker 4: And we are looking for some good talkbacks. One of

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Speaker 4: the topics we're going to be digging into is some

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Speaker 4: of the Epstein conversation with Lisa Bryant might be joining us.

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Speaker 4: You might show us all in.

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Speaker 2: The director of the Epstein documentary. Amazing, Oh so good.

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Speaker 2: I'm so excited, especially I cannot wait to have her

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Speaker 2: back because she had such relationship with many of the victims,

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Speaker 2: of course, and she was at the most recent press conference,

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Speaker 2: et cetera, so all of those new details will be

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Speaker 2: getting fresh off of the presses quite literally. I think

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Speaker 2: I just saw her on MSNBC over the weekend too,

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Speaker 2: really speaking out. Yeah, so that's amazing. When is that

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Speaker 2: talkback Tuesday? All right, so you heard it here, make

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Speaker 2: sure you start stashing those talkbacks, specifically if you have

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Speaker 2: anything Epstein related, because we'll have such a big source

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Speaker 2: here to discuss and later in the show. Next up,

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Speaker 2: we're going to be talking more about this Ramsey case.

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Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, unless you've been living under our lock,

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Speaker 2: you know, John Binney Ramsey is one of those cases

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Speaker 2: that we all want answers about, and we've gotten your

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Speaker 2: messages and your talk back, so stay with us. We'll

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Speaker 2: be talking more of that. This is true crime tonight,

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Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time. Our beloved body Moven

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Speaker 2: is off for the week, so we are running the

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Speaker 2: asylum like crazy people. We have producer Tahahous joining us

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Speaker 2: as always, but this time on the mic, and also

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Speaker 2: Ava Kaplan, our daytime producer who will be joining us

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Speaker 2: yet again to be breaking down all things Jean Benet,

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Speaker 2: because we're going to do a deep dive into the

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Speaker 2: new developments in the John Beney case, because there are

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Speaker 2: many and John Benet's father desperately wants some genetic DNA

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Speaker 2: testing to be done to finish this up once and

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Speaker 2: for all, so lots to discuss there. But first we

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Speaker 2: are going to head to a color bear. Welcome to

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Speaker 2: the show. What's your question?

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Speaker 6: Oh? Hi, well question here. I like those that John Benney. Okay. Now,

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Speaker 6: I heard a lot of comments about people saying, why

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Speaker 6: do they dress them up like that? They're kids? A

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Speaker 6: little hey, I would do it if it were my kid.

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Speaker 6: And there's one two of them out there right now.

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Speaker 6: Angelica Nero from California, four years old, plays the violin, piano,

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Speaker 6: she sings, she's got it going, and she's a granddaughter

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Speaker 6: that I'm not gonna have. And another one, Charlotte Taylor.

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Speaker 6: What they're making money for their parents? You know, I

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Speaker 6: don't see anything wrong with that. But people are like, oh,

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Speaker 6: I can't believe they're doing that. But let me just

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Speaker 6: say my thing about those people that kept those kids

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Speaker 6: in the dungeon.

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Speaker 2: You said, what.

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Speaker 6: Give me that what do you call that electric dun gun?

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Speaker 2: Taser?

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Speaker 6: Give me that stun gun. I'll put it on them.

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Speaker 6: That really bothers me. I'm not kidding you, Like, I

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Speaker 6: know I'd go somewhere by doing that. But what is

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Speaker 6: wrong with people? And the people? Yeah, they get people

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Speaker 6: up there now get upset about a little stupid thing,

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Speaker 6: like you got to be looking around. Look what's going

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Speaker 6: on right now with these people doing that? The little kids, Yeah,

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Speaker 6: they're ruining their lives, and that bothers me.

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Speaker 2: I'm just saying, you know, there, we all agree with

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Speaker 2: you so deeply. I think collectively, anybody within the sound

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Speaker 2: of my voice right now we could all agree throw

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Speaker 2: away the key and taser them because that is unimaginable, unimaginable, inexcusable,

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Speaker 2: and downright horrible. And to the Jean Benet thing, since

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Speaker 2: we have you, you're right. That was the big moment

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Speaker 2: with this John Benet Ramsey case, which happened back in

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Speaker 2: December twenty sixth nineteen ninety six, because she was in

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Speaker 2: beauty pageants, this beautiful young little girl, and at the

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Speaker 2: time that got a lot of attention because it was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: she's in pageants and being overly sexualized. You know, even

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Speaker 2: little six year olds are being you know, victim shamed,

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Speaker 2: which is unbelievable. So thank you for the call and

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Speaker 2: keep on listening. Thanks Ben, Thank you Bear. Well Bear

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Speaker 2: did quite the setup for us here on the John

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Speaker 2: Benet Ramsey. Yes, we've gotten a lot of talkbacks about

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Speaker 2: this and a lot of phone calls about this, so

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Speaker 2: we figured we would do a proper unpack. If you're

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Speaker 2: not familiar with the case, again, I just said it.

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Speaker 2: December twenty sixth, nineteen ninety six. This was one of

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Speaker 2: those cases that gripped the nation and this beautiful young girl,

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Speaker 2: six years old, John Bene Ramsey was found unfortunately dead

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Speaker 2: in her parents' home again a day after Christmas. Mom

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Speaker 2: discovered a ransom note. In the ransom note, the people

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Speaker 2: who had her allegedly were asking for one hundred and

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Speaker 2: eighteen thousand dollars as a ransom reward, etc. And police

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Speaker 2: came and you know, as they were waiting for this

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Speaker 2: call to come in for further direction. Dad finds Jambinet

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Speaker 2: in the basement of their family home, dead under hideous conditions.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's assumed that she was sexually assaulted, her

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Speaker 2: hands were tied in ropes, she had been exphyxiated. Really

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Speaker 2: gruesome scene. And from there this has been one of

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Speaker 2: those cases to this day unsolved that everybody wants answers to.

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Speaker 2: And there's been so many versions of this story, and

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Speaker 2: I guess the most notable is after the murder, Mom

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Speaker 2: and Dad were really living under this veil of suspicion

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Speaker 2: and of accusations by many many including a grand jury,

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Speaker 2: that they did it, and then later it was that

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Speaker 2: the brother did it, and then later there have been

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Speaker 2: so many theories.

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Speaker 4: So so here.

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Speaker 2: We are because we even got conflicted about it during

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Speaker 2: the meeting this morning. So we have eight, we have

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Speaker 2: the whole crew year to unpass.

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Speaker 4: I had to say, Stephan, I'm actually guilty of one

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Speaker 4: of those people who because it was during a time

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Speaker 4: when those tabloids were everywhere, National Inquirer and everything, and

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Speaker 4: I believed a lot of those stories, like the parents

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Speaker 4: clearly did it. Look at all these things that they're saying,

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Speaker 4: so it's been a roller coaster ride for years.

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Speaker 2: And there were a few key ticket items. So just

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Speaker 2: going back in time to nineteen ninety six, right, So

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Speaker 2: little Jean Benet, beautiful blonde hair. She was really charismatic.

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Speaker 2: She was like a dancer and a performer, and she

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Speaker 2: was in pageants. So, you know, back to Bear's comment,

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Speaker 2: lots of the conversation surrounded her being in big hair

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Speaker 2: and makeup and these overly sexualized costumes that you see

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Speaker 2: pageant girls in for someone so young, So that was

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Speaker 2: being super sensationalized. That was number one. Number two, there

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Speaker 2: was this really strange ransom note that's undeniable, incredibly strange.

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Speaker 2: It was two and a half pages. It was one

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Speaker 2: hundred and eighteen thousand dollars. Was kind of a random

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Speaker 2: request that also happened to be the same amount that

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Speaker 2: Dad made in a bonus that year. So that was strange.

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Speaker 2: And if I'm remembering correctly, and correct me if I'm

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Speaker 2: wrong anyone, that there was like a testing like there

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Speaker 2: was a pad with a grocery list or a to

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Speaker 2: do list on it that Patsy mom had made, and

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Speaker 2: under that pad on the second sheet, there was like

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Speaker 2: almost like a practice ransom note it said mister and missus,

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Speaker 2: which listen, is a tough one, right. It kind of

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Speaker 2: implied that maybe Mom had been writing this like very

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Speaker 2: long ransom note, and that maybe something crazy had happened

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Speaker 2: in the home, and that the cover up was this

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Speaker 2: ransom note, and and and welcome to the John vanat

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Speaker 2: Ramsey case. Because that's the setup. But it goes a

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Speaker 2: thousand different directions.

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Speaker 3: It certainly does, and even starting back with the crime

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Speaker 3: scene before the investigation even happens.

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Speaker 2: So just to set the stage a little bit.

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Speaker 3: In Boulder, Colorado, this was again the day after Christmas,

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Speaker 3: I said Stephanie, this was the first murder of the year,

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Speaker 3: which speaks wonderfully of the community. You know, potentially raises

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Speaker 3: some questions about how much practice homicide detectives have been.

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Speaker 3: For example, the lead detective wasn't a homicide detective at all,

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Speaker 3: but a narcotics So from day one when police officers

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Speaker 3: came over, they did not go through the entire house correctly,

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Speaker 3: top to bottom and do the search. Because I think

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Speaker 3: it was almost five hours or more from when police

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Speaker 3: got there. Mom Patsy called at about six or seven

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Speaker 3: o'clock in the morning when she found the ransom note,

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Speaker 3: and then several of the friends of the parents were

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Speaker 3: allowed to come over and have bagels and you know,

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Speaker 3: orange juice, which is insane at a potential crime scene. Further,

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Speaker 3: one of the officers and this was apparently in order

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Speaker 3: to keep the distraught Dad, Oh, let's keep him busy.

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Speaker 3: Dad was told, Hey, why don't you go ahead and

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Speaker 3: take your friend and search the house. And it was

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Speaker 3: then that he and his friend. Dad and his friend

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Speaker 3: went down to the basement and found the body. And

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Speaker 3: then Dad did what any dad would do, picked up

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Speaker 3: his daughter.

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Speaker 5: She p.

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Speaker 3: Had tape on her mouth, so tape off, yeah, and

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Speaker 3: brought her upstairs, diminishing the crime scene entirely.

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Speaker 4: But wasn't there even someone that people thought it was

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Speaker 4: suspicious that Dad immediately made his way to the one

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Speaker 4: area where the body was found. So I think there

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Speaker 4: was a detective or someone involved that said I told

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Speaker 4: him to go do that search around the house, and

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Speaker 4: the first place he goes is to the basement and

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Speaker 4: he finds it. So she was she thought it was

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Speaker 4: suspicious or odd.

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Speaker 2: But by the way, like, where else was he to go?

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Speaker 2: They had been through most of the house, like her room,

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Speaker 2: had been like there's photographs of this of Jan Benet's room,

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Speaker 2: which was where she was sleeping and taken from and

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Speaker 2: we now know brought to a basement that was like

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Speaker 2: taped off with like it may as well have been

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Speaker 2: like two pieces of yellow scotch tape. They were like, well,

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Speaker 2: this is a crime scene, don't go in, And yeah,

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Speaker 2: we told her, you know, we told everybody not to

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Speaker 2: go in this active crime scene where a young child

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Speaker 2: was removed from her sleep, her sleep in her bed.

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Speaker 2: That should be handled more carefully, right, So we're already

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Speaker 2: dealing with some shoddy some shoddy work potentially.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's.

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Speaker 3: Really hard to argue against that. But if you would

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Speaker 3: like to argue against that, give us a call. We're

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Speaker 3: at eighty eight three one Crime. This is true crime tonight.

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Speaker 3: We're on iHeartRadio Courtney Armstrong and I am so lucky

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Speaker 3: that as always my partner in crime, Stephanie Lydecker, is here.

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Speaker 3: But producer Taha is much more on the mic than usual,

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Speaker 3: which is fabulous. And we also have daytime producer Ava here, yes,

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Speaker 3: Ava Kaplan and that has okay, Ava has been losing

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Speaker 3: her mind about this. John Bennet and Taha, you had

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Speaker 3: said that you thought it was potentially odd that Jombanie's

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Speaker 3: father went down to the basement first, and Ava almost

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Speaker 3: jumped across the table. So, Ama, your two cents.

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Speaker 7: I this morning, when I woke up this morning, when

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Speaker 7: I woke up, I was one hundred percent sure that Burke,

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Speaker 7: the creepy brother with the scariest looking guys I've ever

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Speaker 7: seen in my entire life, did this crime. Then Stephanie

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Speaker 7: was like, you have to watch this documentary because it

433
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 7: makes the family look not as suspicious as you may

434
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 7: have been led to believe. And unfortunately that was true.

435
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 7: I was convinced by this documentary that maybe Burke was

436
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 7: not the evil villain that I had made him out

437
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 7: to be in my head. That being said, the way

438
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 7: that the family behaved the morning of the crime was

439
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 7: as if they were doing every single thing they possibly

440
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 7: could to destroy any evidence in a way where it's

441
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 7: like so beyond just like making clueless mistakes.

442
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 2: And it's how do you mean, like.

443
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 7: Let's invite all of our friends over and feed them

444
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 7: and also move the body, and like what.

445
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 8: Most people don't know that if you're in grief your

446
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 8: daughter is missing, you're like in a some proverbial state

447
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,880
Speaker 8: of shock, your behavior is like not really in any

448
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 8: way normal.

449
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 2: So, yeah, you want to be surrounded by people you're

450
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 2: not thinking of, like, oh, don't touch the body. I

451
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 2: mean it's the dad. Like you see your daughter lost there,

452
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 2: of course you're going to want to run and grab

453
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 2: her and take the tape off of her mouth. It's

454
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 2: like maybe like an instinctive thing.

455
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 4: I agree with something on that. Yeah, I mean I

456
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 4: have to say that, like I'm like you, Ava, I

457
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 4: was suspicious of the family and I thought this as well,

458
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 4: but them bringing found me family members over if my

459
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 4: child were missing. If I had a child, I would

460
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 4: want the same thing you want, that support. If anything,

461
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 4: I blame it on the police department, like that was

462
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 4: their job to make sure that people don't walk into

463
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 4: the house and ruin the scene.

464
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 3: One hundred and ten percent. That was absolute failure on

465
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 3: police because I said, you know, they called the people

466
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 3: there with last night. Honestly, if I you know, even

467
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 3: if my dogs went missing, I would call who I yeah,

468
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 3: I went to dinner with last night and be like

469
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,479
Speaker 3: what happened to you have to you know, like just

470
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,719
Speaker 3: grasping and wanting so no, I think it was a

471
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 3: real failure of police.

472
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 2: What else you got, though, Eva, Yeah.

473
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 4: That made me.

474
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 7: I'm willing. I'm willing to give him that whatever, even

475
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 7: though I do still think it's suspicious. Two other details

476
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 7: really stand out to me that raise some major red life.

477
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 7: The first one, of course, like, let's not skip past

478
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 7: it is this crazy ransom note. Like crazy doesn't even

479
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 7: begin to cover how bizarre this thing was. Not even

480
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 7: the fact that it was written on Patsy's notepad, like

481
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 7: and there was a practice one underneath it, but the

482
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 7: way it was written, the language use. Literally, it's like

483
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 7: I just watched a movie and like, this is what

484
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 7: I think people who are writing ransom notes would say

485
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 7: to let me just like make up a ransom note

486
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 7: based on what I think a criminal might say. It's like,

487
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 7: for example, can I just read read a lie?

488
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 8: Yeah?

489
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 2: Please?

490
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 7: For anyone who doesn't know, this is how it starts.

491
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 7: Listen carefully. We are a group of individuals that represent

492
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 7: a small foreign factions. Pause already pause.

493
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, pause, There no question. And it is written like

494
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: as if a right handed person is writing with their

495
00:28:59,120 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 2: left hand.

496
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 4: Yes, I have to look a little different, and I

497
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 4: have to add it's like the longest ransom note I've ever.

498
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 2: Seen, writes two and a half pages ran I'm like,

499
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 2: just tell me what.

500
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 4: You need then just to move on. But yeah, I

501
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 4: agree with you.

502
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 7: It is also like, sorry, just if it was like

503
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 7: a stray pedophile who wanted to be a creep and

504
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 7: like do what he wanted to do, why are you

505
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 7: going to say we're a small foreign faction and then

506
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 7: make up all this lore about how you represent a

507
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 7: foreign entity that hates America? Like that's what this two

508
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 7: and a half page note goes on to say. It

509
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 7: just seems like the story being told in the ransom

510
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 7: note does not align with the intruder theory as it exists.

511
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and by the way, she's one hundred percent right,

512
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: this ave a caplin. We can't get one by it. However,

513
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 2: multiple handwriting experts did say it was not any of

514
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 2: the family.

515
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 4: But what if she did the left hand versus right

516
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 4: hand thing you just said, Does that make a difference.

517
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,959
Speaker 3: I don't know as if experts ex handwriting experts wouldn't

518
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 3: be versed in that. There were four experts that said,

519
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 3: you know, it was not Patsy or anyone else. Not

520
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 3: to let the facts get in the way of a

521
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 3: good story.

522
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 2: Okay, I want to add to that, but I'll wait.

523
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 2: I know we're on borrow time. We'll do it in

524
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 2: the next segment because Ava's got me thinking about something

525
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 2: and she might be right. Go ahead, well listen, go ahead, you.

526
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 4: Know you go.

527
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 7: Please, we'll finish this later because I have a lot

528
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 7: more to say on the topic.

529
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 4: Okay, I'm dying to hear it and the DNA aspect

530
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 4: of it. So Courtney, I want to hear.

531
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 2: Day with us.

532
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 3: Give us a call. Join the conversation eight A eight

533
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 3: three to one crime. What do you think about John

534
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 3: Benet Ramsey, the case, the updates, calling in President Trump

535
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 3: to help.

536
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, We've gotten a lot of calls from you guys

537
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 2: wanting to talk about this case, So please jump in.

538
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 2: Join the convo eight eight eight three one Crime. You

539
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 2: could also leave us a message on our talk back feed. Sure,

540
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 2: just download the iHeartRadio app. It's free top right hand

541
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 2: corner and boom, leave us a message and you're on

542
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 2: the show. Also, you could always hit us up on

543
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 2: our socials at True Crime Tonight's show on Instagram and

544
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 2: TikTok or at True Crime Tonight on Facebook. By the way,

545
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 2: you guys have been doing very great with that, so

546
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: it's really helpful. It really does steer our conversations in

547
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 2: the types of cases that we're doing. This one we've

548
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: gotten a lot about because we're all twisted out about it.

549
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 2: So if you're just joining John Benet Ramsey, she lost

550
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 2: her life in December of nineteen ninety six, day after Christmas.

551
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 2: It's unsolved to this day, back in the news because

552
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 2: Dad John Ramsey was at Crime Con a very huge

553
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 2: event for crime enthusiasts in Denver happening right now, really

554
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 2: begging the President to allow some very specific genetic DNA

555
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: testing to be done on some of the remains of

556
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: John Bennet and to put this to bed once and

557
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 2: for all. So where were we kids?

558
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 4: I think we were leaving off on how we thought

559
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 4: some of the family members might have been involved. But

560
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 4: now that you've just put this in perspective, how John

561
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 4: is pushing this out there, It makes me now say,

562
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 4: why would he Maybe he's not involved, or maybe the

563
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 4: other child is not, because why would he do that?

564
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 2: Well, Listen, there were some suspicious things and just to

565
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 2: set the table a little bit, John Ramsey, dad he

566
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 2: was married previously had three older children, adult children. One

567
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 2: of them died tragically, Ugh Beth was she was in

568
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 2: like a terrible car crash. So this man has been

569
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: through a lot, two children, the loss of so let's

570
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 2: just start there. So then this horrible tragedy happens right

571
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,239
Speaker 2: after Christmas. To your point, there isn't a lot of

572
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 2: crime maybe in beautiful Boulder, Colorado, and this very well

573
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 2: meaning team of law enforcement at that time, of course,

574
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 2: doing the very best that they can, maybe didn't have

575
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 2: a ton of real time experience into a case as

576
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 2: large as this, perhaps because it seems as though it

577
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 2: was maybe not the most carefully kept see if you will,

578
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 2: It didn't seem as though it was maybe closed off.

579
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 2: And now that's problematic because some of this DNA that

580
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 2: has been clearing all kinds of potentially suspicious people throughout

581
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 2: the years, that maybe the DNA is the issue in

582
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 2: the gathering of that DNA which brings us to present time.

583
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 2: Patsy Mom. Unfortunately, she passed away with a broken heart,

584
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: I might add, under a veil of suspicion most of

585
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 2: her adult life. I don't know that she ever escaped that,

586
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 2: do you guys? Remember the Heraldo times when Heraldo the

587
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 2: talk show producer when he was the host. You know,

588
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 2: we thought Heraldo show of course, so you know that

589
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 2: was a big deal. And like they did like a

590
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 2: retrial of the case and it turned out everyone was like, no,

591
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 2: the parents did it like a mock trial.

592
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was that was horrible.

593
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 3: It was unconscionable to watch it in the documentary that's

594
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,479
Speaker 3: out on Netflix. I mean I lived it in real

595
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 3: time like everyone else.

596
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 2: Did you find it unconsciousable at that time? Or I

597
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 2: was gonna say I didn't either.

598
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 4: It did not well.

599
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 3: So it was watching the doc and being you know, older,

600
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 3: wiser and you know, I don't know, having a little

601
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 3: less bloodthirst, but no, you know, seeing it through the

602
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,760
Speaker 3: lens of what it must have been like for these

603
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 3: parents and the people who were on TV. There was

604
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 3: another quote expert and that this was who was I

605
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 3: think on Heraldo And she showed a clip of John Benet,

606
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 3: who was in pageants as you mentioned Stephanie Beauty pageants

607
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,399
Speaker 3: and did other performing and it was six year old

608
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 3: John Benet and she was dressed up in a little

609
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 3: ELF's outfit. Nothing you'd you know, oh right, like a

610
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 3: little soldier, almost like.

611
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 2: A little soldier.

612
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but this quote expert is saying that this

613
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 3: little girl who's pantomiming with an actual saxophone, and she's

614
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 3: saying she is masturbating with the saxophone, and therefore the

615
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 3: parents did it, and it was based on nothing including

616
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 3: the video.

617
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 2: The video does not hold up. You literally are watching

618
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,280
Speaker 2: a little girl performing holding a saxophone. It was nothing

619
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: sexual about it. Even the fact that you would assume

620
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 2: that was being sexualized and that was masturbation is in

621
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 2: and of itself nuts. But again, at the time, I

622
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 2: don't know that we were all seeing this case through

623
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 2: the same lens, right like, it did seem as though

624
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 2: the parents were somehow involved in that maybe one of

625
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 2: them was eventually going to turn on the other, which

626
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: never happened, which is why I think the second big

627
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 2: working theory for many of us was the son. Now,

628
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 2: remember there was a big show about this, I think

629
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 2: it was on CBS, and I do think there was

630
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 2: a lawsuit to follow where the son, the brother of

631
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: Jean Benet, who at the time was six and I

632
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 2: think the brother was nine, burke that they said that

633
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 2: maybe at morning breakfast, that there was this flashlight on

634
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: the counter, and Jean Benet was eating one of her

635
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 2: little treats, and that maybe or maybe the son was

636
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 2: eating the little treat and that John Benet took the

637
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 2: treat and then he just whacked her kind of as

638
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 2: a kid would do, and not intentionally to hurt her,

639
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 2: but like whacked her on the head, kills her with

640
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 2: this flashlight. And therefore they had to create a big

641
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 2: story around to save their son. But that was also

642
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 2: I think kind of proven to be inaccurate. That burke

643
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 2: the brother. He ended up suing CBS. He sued for

644
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 2: seven hundred and fifty million dollars. They settled for an

645
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 2: undisclosed amount. But that as lutely was and has been

646
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: the working theory for a lot of people for a

647
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 2: long time. Listen, what do you think about this case?

648
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 2: Did you follow it?

649
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 9: Then?

650
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 2: Are you following it?

651
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 4: Now?

652
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 3: Give us a call eighty eight three to one crime

653
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 3: or you can always send us a talkback iHeartRadio app

654
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 3: Go to the upper right hand corner, press that microphone

655
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 3: button and boom, you are on the show. We are

656
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 3: talking about John Beney Ramsey. John Beney Ramsey was killed

657
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 3: back in nineteen ninety six found in her parents' home.

658
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 3: Her parents and brother have been under a cloud of suspicion,

659
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 3: and now John Benet's father has reached out to President

660
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 3: President Trump in an effort to help get some of

661
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 3: the DNA tested from this long ago case. But Ava

662
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 3: producer Ava once again chomping at the bit, What did

663
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 3: you want to say about John Benet's brother, Burke?

664
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts and theories?

665
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 7: Okay, these are my thoughts and theories, and they're a

666
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 7: little bit graphic, and they have to do with child

667
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 7: sexual abuse, So I just want to give a trigger

668
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 7: warning before I start her warning. But I did think

669
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 7: that it's important to note that there was evidence of

670
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 7: sexual abuse in John Today's body. And I really don't

671
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 7: like or want to believe that any member of her

672
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 7: family could be responsible for this, much less the parent.

673
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 7: But do you guys think it could be possible that

674
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 7: maybe even innocently, as not even like he was trying

675
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 7: to do something wrong, like he was a child, like

676
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 7: he could have been sexually abusing her in a way

677
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 7: where it's like he's just a kid and he just

678
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 7: doesn't know what he's doing, and maybe the parents caught

679
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 7: that and there was a struggle, and maybe that's something

680
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 7: that could have happened. I'm just trying to think. I

681
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 7: don't like to believe that the parents could have done it,

682
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 7: or that anyone who's necessarily doing it on purpose, but

683
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 7: you know, sometimes children do things without realizing what they're

684
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 7: actually doing.

685
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I did think that, and there was

686
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 4: a side I went along with that for a while.

687
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 4: But I think the one hole in that theory is

688
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 4: didn't they find evidence of someone else's DNA or underpants?

689
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 4: So now that brings, you know, another question mark, whose

690
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 4: DNA was that then?

691
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 2: And that is the full circle moment of it. In fact, Burke,

692
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 2: the brother was actually on Doctor Phil not that long ago,

693
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 2: you know, within the last couple of years, and it

694
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 2: was like a really poor display, but the he was

695
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 2: very odd in his presentation. Doctor Phil kind of came

696
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 2: on a little hard, perhaps, dare I say? And it

697
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 2: didn't help the cause. Right, So the brother was a

698
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 2: fairly interesting working theory because that would explain why mom

699
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 2: and dad never turned on each other. You know, typically

700
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 2: if one parent knows that the other parent was the

701
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 2: perpetrator at some point, loved dwindles and you're like I

702
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 2: got to turn on you and turn you in. I

703
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 2: think it's rare for parents to like stick to the

704
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 2: story when one of them was the culprit. However, if

705
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 2: it's your other living child, that kind of tracks right

706
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 2: where you stay together, you're a united front. You're never

707
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 2: going to change the story because you're protecting one of

708
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 2: your own. That always sort of tracked. I see that.

709
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 2: And by the way, it was also laid out for

710
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: us in many ways in the media, in documentaries, et cetera.

711
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 2: And it does also bring some question to that. You know,

712
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 2: we were kind of all hook line and sink or

713
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 2: believing what's fed us, right, And I think that's a

714
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 2: really important thing to be, you know, mindful of today. Listen,

715
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 2: we all make documentaries, you know, we take it so

716
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 2: seriously to not convict somebody. I mean, it's painstaking to

717
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 2: like it might seem entertaining that the brother did it

718
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 2: or the mother did it, because we can check that box,

719
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 2: but that's not the truth necessarily. So, yeah, Patsy had

720
00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 2: odd behavior by many people's assessment. That's mom. Dad never

721
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 2: changed his story really, even despite the fact that he'd

722
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 2: lost two of his own daughters. Wow. And then Patsy,

723
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: who was a you know, a cancer survivor. Also you know,

724
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 2: didn't really live to see this moment now, because there

725
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 2: were several very suspicious candidates people A man confessed to

726
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 2: the crime even let's not forget there was also someone

727
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,760
Speaker 2: who confessed to the crime. And then the DNA.

728
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 7: It's the weirdo like who was getting off on people

729
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 7: thinking that him and John Benay like had a special relationship.

730
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 2: You no for sure, And that's what a law enforcement

731
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,720
Speaker 2: concluded because the day in the DNA did not match

732
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 2: his ultimately, and his big request was yes, I'll say

733
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: I did it if you'll promise me three meals a

734
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 2: day and a roof over my head, because he was

735
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 2: a bit of a wanderer. So that seemed like a

736
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 2: false confession. By the way, who falsely confesses to sexually

737
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: abusing and murdering a six year old beauty pageant star.

738
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 4: I mean, it's unimaginable to the people that confess to

739
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 4: this girl's you know, to the crime, but which I

740
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 4: thought was insane. But then there was also the other

741
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 4: side that I was going to say with the I

742
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 4: think there was one that had gone overseas and he

743
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 4: came back but there were a lot of phone conversations

744
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 4: where he was confessing he did sell things that like

745
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 4: he knew of grandmother's name or something that was very

746
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 4: inside that other people wouldn't. That raised the question mark

747
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 4: for me, like how did he know that inside info?

748
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 3: It's the man you're talking about, John Mark Carr. And yes,

749
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 3: he had many and multiple conversations with a journalist and

750
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 3: a journalist who took the other side of the coin. Whereas,

751
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 3: let's call it, ninety nine point nine percent of the

752
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 3: media was lambasting John Beney Ramsey's parents and listen, I

753
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 3: bought all those tabloids as well, so I was, you know,

754
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 3: in it and helping make it happen, is the truth

755
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 3: of it. However, this certain journalist was not. And yeah,

756
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 3: John Mark Carr had multiple conversations and described in really

757
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 3: great detail a lot of things, not just as you

758
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 3: mentioned taha about a family you know, grandma's nickname that

759
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 3: he shouldn't have known, but also about the that very

760
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 3: strange ransom note ava that you mentioned, which.

761
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,439
Speaker 2: Never has been buttoned up by MyDD the ransom note

762
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 2: there's no big like tie up in that. Not to

763
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 2: cut you off court, sorry, the note was weird, and

764
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 2: like it being on Patsy's notebook was weird. It was

765
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 2: the notebook that also was like a sheet of paper

766
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:49,280
Speaker 2: under her list.

767
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, so I'm sorry. I kind of just say one

768
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 7: more thing about the ransom note. I don't want to

769
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 7: beat a dead horse, but who writes a ransom note

770
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 7: and then murders the victim and leads them in the basement?

771
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 7: Like the whole point of the ransom note is it's

772
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 7: a kidnapping and I'm going to get money in exchange

773
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 7: for your child? Like, I don't, can someone riddle me that?

774
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 7: Please write the second?

775
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 2: We couldn't. I don't know that there's a riddle to

776
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 2: be solved on that one. It is the confusing part

777
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,720
Speaker 2: of this case, right, And there was no obvious entry.

778
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 2: It had also been fed to the media that there

779
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 2: were footprints. There were no footprints in the snow leading

780
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 2: up to the window that would have been opened to

781
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 2: be able to crawl into the house. But then it

782
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 2: was also concluded that there was no snow that night.

783
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's again, like, were we all having tunnel vision?

784
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 2: Was the media having tunnel vision? And were authorities at

785
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 2: that time? Which happened were they having tunnel vision and

786
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 2: you could see this is the perfect storm of a

787
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 2: lot of things happening at a very specific time in

788
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 2: the media one hundred percent, and we were being fed misinformation,

789
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,760
Speaker 2: you know, the specifically as you mentioned about the footsteps,

790
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 2: you know, being suspicious when there's no snow for it

791
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 2: could have been. And there's a detective Steve Thomas, we

792
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 2: mentioned him earlier. He was in narcotics but ended up

793
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 2: playing a large role in this. He was also in

794
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 2: a civil suit years later after the case for his

795
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 2: i'd say mishandling of it, but he acknowledged that both

796
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 2: his department and the FBI used media to quote apply

797
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 2: pressure to get the parents to confess. And this application

798
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:36,879
Speaker 2: of quote pressure included complete lies about this family that

799
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:41,359
Speaker 2: we all took as truth. Myself included, yeah, why would

800
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 2: that inquire a lie?

801
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:44,839
Speaker 4: I believed it, so I went along with it.

802
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 2: And by the way, that's sometimes something that law enforcement

803
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,280
Speaker 2: has to do to like plant information in the world

804
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 2: to see what comes back. This was one of those

805
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 2: examples that really went quite bad and destroyed many people's lives.

806
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 2: We're going to continue We're talking true crime all the time,

807
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 2: so stick with us. We'll be right back. Send us

808
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 2: any of your questions. Welcome back to True Crime tonight

809
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time. Listen.

810
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 2: If you've missed any of the first hour, no problem,

811
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 2: you can just catch us right after the show as

812
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 2: a podcast as well. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney

813
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 2: Armstrong and Taha and Ava. The producers of the show

814
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 2: are taking it over right now. Body is gone for

815
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 2: the night. Frankly, she's gone for the week. So we

816
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 2: hope you're having fun. Body, we miss you aways and

817
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 2: we're talking Jean Benet Ramsey because there's been some new

818
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 2: developments in this case. You know, listen, this is one

819
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 2: of those cases that if you haven't been following broad strokes,

820
00:46:56,239 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 2: John Benet was murdered on December twenty sixth, nineteen ninety six.

821
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 2: Her you know, six year old body was found likely

822
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 2: sexually assaulted, not likely was sexually assaulted. She had been

823
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 2: bound tape over her mouth, brutally murdered, and there was

824
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 2: this very strange ransom note left upstairs that mom found

825
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 2: in the morning, notified authorities. Everybody was looking for Jean Benet.

826
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 2: Word is out and then the police asked Dad and

827
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 2: a buddy to go check the rest of the house

828
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 2: to see if there's anything unusual, and then they discover

829
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 2: her dead body in the basement. Now, the parents had

830
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 2: been brought up on tons of suspicion and really their

831
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 2: lives were basically tarnished by the idea that they came

832
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:50,760
Speaker 2: together and somehow either murdered her or covered up the murder.

833
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 2: Maybe the brother had done it. He was nine years

834
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 2: old at the time. There were all of these very

835
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 2: hideous theories, and you know, looking back with a c

836
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 2: her lens, it does appear that none of those theories

837
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 2: ever really tracked forensically. And Dad John Ramsey, who still

838
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 2: is living his wife Patsy, has since passed. Sadly, he

839
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 2: since remarried and is living a happy life. He wants answers,

840
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 2: He really wants answers. And there's very specific genetic DNA.

841
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 2: We just had CC Moore on who's the og the

842
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 2: queen of this genetic DNA testing that he wants to

843
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 2: have a final answer because there's apparently some there's some

844
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,840
Speaker 2: DNA that can still solve this. How have we not

845
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 2: solved this yet?

846
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 5: Okay, here's my thing, I'd like to ask this baby

847
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 5: to Joseph, because I have my theories that the DNA

848
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 5: found on the underwear doesn't necessarily mean it has to

849
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 5: be direct contact.

850
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 7: It could have been secondary transfer, Like if the mom

851
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 7: was they were just at a Christmas party, and if

852
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 7: the mom was like hugging, shaking hands, sharing food and

853
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 7: drink with people and someone's DNA could have ended up

854
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:06,839
Speaker 7: on her and then she was like helping. John Maine

855
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 7: undressed later that DNA could have ended up on the

856
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 7: underwear through secondary transfer. That's a theory that I've heard,

857
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 7: but I'd like to get an expert opinion on how

858
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 7: likely that actually is.

859
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 2: But there is DNA evidence that we now know with

860
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:24,879
Speaker 2: unknown male touch DNA, that's for sure. Like I think

861
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 2: that's not being question. Now they've had DNA's tests against

862
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 2: several suspicious people who have either confessed to killing Jean Benet.

863
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 2: Can you imagine and the DNA ended up not being

864
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 2: a match. This has happened several times, so that has

865
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 2: also brought into a question the idea of the DNA

866
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 2: maybe not being gathered properly from Jump Street. And if

867
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 2: that's the case, can they turn to genetic DNA maybe

868
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 2: to find something in the familial space that would also

869
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 2: help identify who this perpetrator is. I mean, listen, we're

870
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 2: seeing this real time, right, Yeah. Genetic DNA that meaning

871
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 2: it's a DNA hit that goes through those like twenty

872
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 2: three and meters type stuff like those wherever you're looking

873
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 2: to put your DNA samples. They do a search through

874
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 2: that to see if maybe there's a familial match and

875
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 2: it so, then they can identify a family line, and

876
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 2: if so, then they can identify a perpetrator from that

877
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 2: family line.

878
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 4: Does that make sense completely? Yeah? What doesn't make sense

879
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 4: is that it hasn't been done up until now, Like

880
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 4: it feels.

881
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,479
Speaker 2: Like why has that not been done? Like, how could

882
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 2: this not be happening? I know it's not. It's kind

883
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 2: of unheard of, you know. The Golden State killer was

884
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 2: found through this manner. Brian Coberger, most recently in the

885
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 2: Idaho massacre, also was identified through familial genetic DNA from dad.

886
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 2: What are the other things that could be not tested

887
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 2: at this point? Quite an armstrong, you have.

888
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 3: A question, Well, well, I think part of it is

889
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 3: that is the expense is the sheer monetary expense, which

890
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 3: may sound ridiculous, but John Ramsey has father of John Benay.

891
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 3: You know, not only did he call for President Trump

892
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:21,240
Speaker 3: to get involved, but he also said that he would

893
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 3: fundraise for genetic genealogy testing, so fundraising. The fact that

894
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,399
Speaker 3: he mentioned that obviously led me to think that there

895
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 3: is a lack of literal funds. Although in good news

896
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 3: on that end is father John Ramsey. He has expressed

897
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 3: like a real renewed optimism and this was after a

898
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 3: fairly recent meeting with the Boulder Police Department. There's new leadership,

899
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 3: but it seems like maybe, you know, open minds might

900
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 3: be prevailing.

901
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 2: I mean, look, it's a different time, right, so, and

902
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 2: this does sometimes happen. We've at least heard stories where

903
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,879
Speaker 2: this has happened. You know, listen, we work aside alongside

904
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 2: law enforcement gratefully all the time. So sometimes though it's

905
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 2: been decades, the circumstances have changed. It's very easy to

906
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 2: look back to law enforcement of yesteryear and you know,

907
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 2: raise suspicion and you know, cast judgment. Everyone was doing

908
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:22,359
Speaker 2: the best they could at the time. But sometimes you know,

909
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:26,759
Speaker 2: the original OG crew that made some very real statements

910
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 2: at the time of a crime hold on real tight

911
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 2: to that narrative. That's what they call tunnel vision, right,

912
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:38,399
Speaker 2: So tunnel vision could last for decades and decades. We've

913
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:41,799
Speaker 2: seen this in many cases where you know, it's like

914
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,360
Speaker 2: almost like a stain. If there's if they were wrong,

915
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:47,880
Speaker 2: if they got it wrong, they did it wrong. And

916
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,400
Speaker 2: that's not the case. You know what, We all get

917
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:55,240
Speaker 2: it wrong. Sometimes it's like new innovations, new technology, fresh

918
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 2: eyes looking at something from a distance. By the way,

919
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 2: sometimes this happens. Why I think that documentaries are so

920
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:04,359
Speaker 2: interesting because sometimes it just takes fresh eyes to look

921
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 2: at a cold case case because you've been so close

922
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 2: to it for too long, Right, that happens, so anyway,

923
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 2: I you know that could be in play here. We

924
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 2: don't know for sure, but that seems to be the assertion.

925
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:20,800
Speaker 7: Yeah, everyone, so we all watch like this cold case

926
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 7: John Bine ramsay, that was like the documentary that we

927
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 7: all recently watched. That's making me at least reconsider the

928
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 7: fact that the parents are responsible. And I don't know

929
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 7: if you guys remember they mentioned when they were going

930
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 7: through like all the people who had been seen as

931
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 7: suspects or confessed. There was the case where a mother

932
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 7: nearby literally like walked in on her daughter in the

933
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 7: middle of like someone who had broken in and was

934
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 7: attempting to sexually assault her, and the mom like chased

935
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 7: him with mace. He like escaped through the window, only

936
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 7: to never be seen again and never identified. And it

937
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 7: turns out that this girl went to John Benet's dance studio,

938
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 7: which I just think is crazy because it's like, this

939
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 7: guy's out there and we have no idea who he is,

940
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 7: and it seems like this could very well be the

941
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 7: intruder if we are.

942
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 4: Buying said, that was one that stood out to me

943
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 4: the most.

944
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 2: And that happens, like, why would you not investigate that

945
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 2: now in that particular case, Ava that you bring up

946
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 2: so astutely. In that case it was another member of

947
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:23,319
Speaker 2: Jean Benet's dance class, and the authority said, well, they're

948
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 2: not connected because John Benet's life was taken, not just

949
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 2: sexually assaulted, and in this case it was merely a

950
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 2: sexual assault. Yeah, because the mom walked in and chased

951
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 2: the guy out with mace, right, who knows what would

952
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 2: have escalate it too exactly. I mean, there's no crime

953
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,319
Speaker 2: in Boulder, Colorado, as we all have known, Like there's

954
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 2: very little, So like, what are the odds that there's

955
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 2: two sexual assaults on young girls from a dance class?

956
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 2: That could be a thing. I did think that was

957
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 2: also an interesting thing. I did see this in the

958
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 2: documentary how sometimes at these pageants of these very little

959
00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:00,439
Speaker 2: girls that sometimes people who weren't family members it would

960
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 2: come to attend, meaning creepers would sometimes come. And it's yeah,

961
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 2: or creepy photographers exactly. So you know, again that's not

962
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:14,919
Speaker 2: a victim shaming thing. It's just you know, a clear

963
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,880
Speaker 2: example of you know, keep your kids close and you

964
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 2: know the creepers are real. Yeah, that applies to social media, Courtney,

965
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 2: You and I get into this all the time. We

966
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 2: have a couple of friends in common, and you know,

967
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:31,319
Speaker 2: we work in true crimes, so we're nuts. But you know,

968
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 2: you cannot post kids without their bathing suit top, so

969
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,439
Speaker 2: even if they're three years old. It's as crazy as

970
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 2: that sounds, because it's so innocent and you see your

971
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 2: little nuggets, you know, frolicking in their diapers. It's so

972
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 2: cute until you're a pedophile or a weirdo and they

973
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 2: are aroused by those types of photos.

974
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 4: Just ahead up only pictures and yeah, head to toe.

975
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 2: Honestly, that is actually something we really have had embedded

976
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 2: in our heads just working in this business from so

977
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 2: many psychoanalysts and law enforcement. Any children should be a

978
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 2: put on social media as little as possible. It's a

979
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:17,799
Speaker 2: real hard one and fully clothed, even if they're in diapers.

980
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 2: It seems adorable to the family, but there are enough

981
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 2: weirdos out there to make that not okay.

982
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 3: Words of the wise. Listen, this is true crime.

983
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 2: Tonight.

984
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 3: We have just had an impassioned conversation about John impassioned

985
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 3: Ava really broad you know, producer Ava came came to

986
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 3: voice her opinion.

987
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 2: She had strong So wait you we got you off

988
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 2: of the Burke scenario.

989
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 5: I don't know.

990
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 2: Brother did not do it. He's innocent.

991
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 7: I saw him in the street. I think I would

992
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 7: cross the street. Let me say that, honey.

993
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:56,799
Speaker 2: But that is because he's been through a lot. What

994
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:57,880
Speaker 2: if you lost his sister?

995
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 4: I know made you think that. And I've changed because

996
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:06,239
Speaker 4: I was like you, Ava up until maybe yesterday. No, No,

997
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 4: I felt the same way you did up until yesterday,

998
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 4: and then I watched the documentary and now I have

999
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 4: second I have a second feeling about it. So I

1000
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 4: actually also don't think the dad would come so forward

1001
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 4: about DNA if he knew that his son was involved.

1002
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:23,439
Speaker 4: So I don't know that's my feeling. But that's one

1003
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 4: of many cases that Ava has brought to our attention

1004
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 4: that she has strong feelings on. I think something recently

1005
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 4: you were just talking about. There's another DM we got that.

1006
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 4: You were like, ah, what about this one?

1007
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 7: Yes, thank you for bringing it up. So I get

1008
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 7: all of your wonderful emails and vms and talk back

1009
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 7: and I go through every single one of them. And

1010
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:46,440
Speaker 7: you guys know, I was on last Monday. I think

1011
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 7: it was talking about Amy Bradley, which is another case

1012
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 7: that really stuck with me. And we got this, in

1013
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 7: my opinion, genius email theorizing about an aspect of the case.

1014
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 7: So before I read it, just real quick. Amy Bradley

1015
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 7: was a twenty three year old who went miss on

1016
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:04,479
Speaker 7: the cruise in the nineties and essentially in the early

1017
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 7: hours of the morning, her family saw her out on

1018
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 7: the balcony of their little cruise room went back to sleep.

1019
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 7: Thirty minutes later, she was missing, never to be seen again,

1020
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 7: and there was a few apparent alleged sightings. One of

1021
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 7: whom was from a taxi driver on the island where

1022
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 7: they had docked, and he said that Amy came over

1023
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 7: to his cab asked for where a payphone is he

1024
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 7: told her, and then she walked in the opposite direction

1025
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 7: of the payphone. So this is one of the sightings

1026
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,760
Speaker 7: that has been kind of speculated about. Was it really her?

1027
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:38,280
Speaker 7: If it was her, what can that tell us about

1028
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 7: maybe where she is or why she got off the boat,

1029
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 7: et cetera. And I love these series. So this is

1030
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 7: the email Hatred creenttonight. My name is Jadelein. I'm sixteen

1031
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 7: years old. I heard you talking about Amy Bradley last

1032
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 7: night and one of the sightings you discussed really made

1033
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 7: me think. You mentioned how Amy asked the taxi driver

1034
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:58,919
Speaker 7: where the closest payphone was and when he told her,

1035
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 7: she watched the other direction. My theories are the following

1036
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 7: and then we have two theories.

1037
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 2: Dun dune, dun.

1038
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 7: Exactly. Amy might have been trying to send a signal

1039
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 7: for the taxi driver to call the police without telling

1040
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 7: him what's wrong in case she was being watched.

1041
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 2: That's the bird theory, good theory.

1042
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 9: The second theory is Amy might have been left alone

1043
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 9: for a few seconds, and she was planning to use

1044
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:24,919
Speaker 9: the phone, but then once she realized she was being

1045
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 9: watched or the people came back, she walked the other

1046
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 9: direction so as not to raise that flag.

1047
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 7: And she said, I love your show. I would love

1048
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 7: to hear her thoughts on them. I stumbled, if my

1049
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 7: accident has been in love with it ever since. So

1050
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 7: thank you so much Jalen for the email. I think

1051
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 7: those are both great theories.

1052
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 2: I am with her. I'm with her on the first one,

1053
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:45,120
Speaker 2: especially By the way, there was another girl saved by

1054
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 2: giving the secret the secret handshake behind her back. So

1055
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 2: there is a thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well two seconds.

1056
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 2: So the idea that Amy Bradley got out of the

1057
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 2: cab and she was trying to just like signal him

1058
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 2: the camp driver, hey, something's amiss. Call the police. She

1059
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 2: was doing it as smooth as she could because she

1060
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 2: was probably being watched. It's not easy to give a

1061
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 2: signal to a camp driver who apparently got the signal,

1062
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:19,400
Speaker 2: just didn't really really wax on it instantly. But what

1063
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 2: are what should she have done in that situation to

1064
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 2: give the signal?

1065
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:25,480
Speaker 4: Can I tell you what? I had to look it

1066
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 4: up because you brought this up on another show and

1067
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 4: I wanted to see, like, what is that signal? I'm

1068
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:32,120
Speaker 4: reading it right now. If you can't speak and you're

1069
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:34,200
Speaker 4: in danger and you need to give a signal, hold

1070
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 4: up one hand, palm facing out now, tuck your thumb

1071
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 4: into your palm, close your fingers down over your thumb

1072
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 4: like you're being trapped. That's the signal that you give.

1073
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 4: It's a non verbal signal. Yeah, and if you ever

1074
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 4: see that, you should call nine one one or someone

1075
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 4: to help you out.

1076
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 2: And to help you. And yeah, if you see somebody

1077
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 2: in front of you or just like a passer buyer

1078
01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 2: on the street and they give that signal, sometimes they'll

1079
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 2: put it behind their backs because they're being they're walking

1080
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 2: side by side by their abductor or abuser. There was

1081
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 2: just a case we got to pull it up in

1082
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 2: the Good News Factor. She did the signal and it

1083
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:13,760
Speaker 2: worked and authorities were called and her life was saved

1084
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:17,360
Speaker 2: by her abusive boyfriend. Anyway, Amy Bradley, I don't know

1085
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 2: what to say, Ava. It sounds like she's alive. I know.

1086
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:22,760
Speaker 7: I agree, and I think Jaalin, these are both really

1087
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:24,680
Speaker 7: great theories. And the third one that you made me

1088
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 7: think of is maybe she was just asking for later,

1089
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 7: Like maybe she was just like, Okay, I just want

1090
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:30,720
Speaker 7: to know where the pythone is for later, I'm just

1091
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 7: going to ask this guy. But she had something else

1092
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 7: that she was maybe interested in doing first, right.

1093
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 2: Like she was going to go grab a bite and

1094
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 2: then get to the payphone.

1095
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, because some people think she got off the

1096
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 7: boat on purpose to go get drugs.

1097
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:47,640
Speaker 3: Well, listen, we will continue at this and Jadelyn, thank

1098
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 3: you one more time for that interesting information.

1099
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 2: Keep it here.

1100
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 3: True Crime Tonight, We've got more headlines, We've got more stories,

1101
01:01:55,440 --> 01:02:08,800
Speaker 3: we got more true crime, and listen, we are holding

1102
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 3: down the fort right now and going on to some

1103
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 3: new headlines of the night. By the way, if you

1104
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 3: want to jump in and join the conversation eight eight

1105
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 3: eight three one crime, please do. We'd love to hear

1106
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:22,560
Speaker 3: from you and Courtney some new headlines that you want

1107
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:26,960
Speaker 3: to unpack for us. Yeah, this is one that's again

1108
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 3: has been hot and heavy in the news and there

1109
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 3: are a lot of questions about So let's go into

1110
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 3: this just open minded and we'll deal with the facts

1111
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 3: of this case as we know it. So twenty one

1112
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 3: year old University of Kentucky cheerleader, a woman named Lake

1113
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 3: and Snelling. So she has dropped out of school and

1114
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:51,440
Speaker 3: this is following being arrested after police found the body

1115
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 3: of her newborn baby hidden inside her closet. Okay, so

1116
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:00,720
Speaker 3: this happened a little over a week ago that police

1117
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:05,280
Speaker 3: officers were you know, sent to her off campus residence.

1118
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 3: There was a report of an unresponsive infant and the

1119
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:13,640
Speaker 3: identity of the nine one one caller remains confidential at

1120
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 3: this time.

1121
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 2: You imagine finding an unresponsive infant, newborn in a closet.

1122
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 3: No, it's really and and this infant was in the closet,

1123
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 3: was wrapped in a towel and then wrapped again in

1124
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:37,680
Speaker 3: a trash bag. So what we know is this, upon questioning,

1125
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 3: Laken has admitted to giving birth. She admitted to cleaning

1126
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 3: up the evidence and placing all of the evidence as

1127
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:52,960
Speaker 3: it were, into the closet. But here's a very important

1128
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 3: point in this. The baby's cause and manner of death

1129
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:01,080
Speaker 3: is unknown at this moment. So this, you know, this

1130
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 3: will be continued. You know, it could well be a

1131
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:06,720
Speaker 3: case of a stillborn.

1132
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 2: Infant.

1133
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:11,320
Speaker 3: We just don't know, So I think everything we just

1134
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 3: learned talking about being lambasted in the media when not

1135
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:21,160
Speaker 3: enough information is being known is something that.

1136
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:21,800
Speaker 2: We should heed.

1137
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:23,520
Speaker 4: That's an excellent point.

1138
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a tough one. I mean it's gotten so

1139
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:30,720
Speaker 2: much chatter online and people of course are jumping on this.

1140
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 2: You know, she's a beautiful young woman with her life

1141
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:37,840
Speaker 2: ahead of her. You know, we don't know the circumstances

1142
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 2: of Lincoln's life. We don't know the circumstances of her

1143
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 2: pregnancy and how this unfortunate, horrible scenario took place. But yeah,

1144
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:51,960
Speaker 2: I think we all have to be mindful about jumping

1145
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 2: to judgment. That's right, because we just don't know.

1146
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:57,440
Speaker 3: It's filling in blanks that we don't I mean, you know,

1147
01:04:57,480 --> 01:05:01,280
Speaker 3: it's possible people literally go through nine months of pregnancy and.

1148
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 2: Do not you know people who are that has happened.

1149
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:07,040
Speaker 2: We saw this in talk shows. Yeah, that there as

1150
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:10,000
Speaker 2: many people who just didn't even know they were pregnant. Yeah,

1151
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:11,720
Speaker 2: they were like, I have stomach aches.

1152
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, they had no idea. And I'll never forget one

1153
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 4: woman who like it was way back when Stephan Now

1154
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 4: used to work on Sala Jesse Raphael and she said,

1155
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:22,080
Speaker 4: I just thought I was gaining weight and you know,

1156
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 4: things were still normal, and she literally went to the

1157
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:27,360
Speaker 4: bathroom and was like, oh my god, there's a baby.

1158
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:31,000
Speaker 2: Which so had a baby in the bathroom. That's a

1159
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:34,720
Speaker 2: true story. Yeah, can you imagine, Like how surprising is that?

1160
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:39,800
Speaker 2: Very And there's other scenarios where young girls have to

1161
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:42,840
Speaker 2: hide their pregnancies and somehow are able to wear you know,

1162
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 2: baggy sweatshirts and hoodies, which is, by the way, totally

1163
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:49,520
Speaker 2: the style right now. So maybe you're feeling over your head,

1164
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 2: or you're not able to talk with somebody, or you're

1165
01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:55,920
Speaker 2: not able to tell the parent, the father or your parents,

1166
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 2: and you cover up your pregnancy and many can pull

1167
01:05:59,880 --> 01:06:03,040
Speaker 2: them off with like big baggy sweatshirts. We've heard these

1168
01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:04,280
Speaker 2: stories before as well.

1169
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:07,960
Speaker 3: Absolutely, or you could be impregnated by, you know, a

1170
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 3: perpetrator who was in your corbit. Again, we just don't know.

1171
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 3: So what we do know is that there will be

1172
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:19,280
Speaker 3: a preliminary hearing scheduled in a couple of weeks from now.

1173
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:23,520
Speaker 3: We'll keep you up to that. The investigation is ongoing,

1174
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:28,640
Speaker 3: and right now Lacn is on house arrest at her parents' house.

1175
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:31,640
Speaker 2: So that's all the facts we don't know much about

1176
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:36,240
Speaker 2: that scenario, right, Mom and dad and stuff for Laken's life.

1177
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 3: No, I mean she again was a senior at the

1178
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:43,280
Speaker 3: University of Kentucky. She was a member of and this

1179
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 3: is no joke, of the school's competitive stunt cheer team

1180
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:50,880
Speaker 3: for three seasons. So that's the cheerleaders who I mean

1181
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:54,400
Speaker 3: talk about being an unbelievable athlete.

1182
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:57,960
Speaker 4: So she was competing even all the way up I

1183
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 4: wonder up until while she was still pregnant, which.

1184
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:05,440
Speaker 2: Well I don't. It was for three seasons. She's a senior.

1185
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:10,320
Speaker 3: And also August twenty seventh, officers received the call. So

1186
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:14,680
Speaker 3: if you back into it, we're going it's back.

1187
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:21,120
Speaker 2: It wasn't like nine months ten months of pregnancy, huh yeah, so,

1188
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 2: but no information of that.

1189
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:28,880
Speaker 3: I was able to find of her home life. The

1190
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 3: father of the child is unknown in this moment. And

1191
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:36,240
Speaker 3: then an ex boyfriend too, I'm going to choose not

1192
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 3: to say his name. His ex boyfriend gave his DNA

1193
01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:41,760
Speaker 3: to be tested for a possible paternity match.

1194
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 2: So we'll see.

1195
01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:48,240
Speaker 3: It's a lot of question marks right now, and you know, it's.

1196
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:52,280
Speaker 2: A sad day. Whatever led to what happens, it's no

1197
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:55,160
Speaker 2: circumstance that makes that a good day. And there's no

1198
01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:59,760
Speaker 2: human or mother alive that could deliver a baby in

1199
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 2: the circumstance and put in a closet and feel good

1200
01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:06,080
Speaker 2: about it. So no doubt they're suffering happening there, and

1201
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 2: our hearts are with this beautiful little baby's sad.

1202
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 4: But we probably will continue following this one because I

1203
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:16,360
Speaker 4: would like to see where it progresses.

1204
01:08:16,479 --> 01:08:19,479
Speaker 2: So the stories are so hard? Could we put like

1205
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:22,040
Speaker 2: I know, we struggle with this. I almost want the

1206
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:27,120
Speaker 2: audience to vote about stories involving the loss of babies.

1207
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:30,360
Speaker 2: It's almost too sad. I almost think we need to

1208
01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:35,440
Speaker 2: do a true crime tonight mandate of no stories about babies.

1209
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:38,160
Speaker 2: It's so tough. I don't know how we do it,

1210
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 2: because apparently we did a whole night about it John

1211
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 2: benet Is, and exactly she was six, so it just

1212
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:47,280
Speaker 2: you know, we talk about Emmanuel Harrow, who also his

1213
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:50,479
Speaker 2: messed up dad, you know, doing unspeakable things to his

1214
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:54,640
Speaker 2: I had the misfortune of seeing a photo of Emmanuel

1215
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:58,559
Speaker 2: Harrow's messed up father who was is now thankfully in

1216
01:08:58,640 --> 01:09:03,639
Speaker 2: custody of the previous daughter he had, and seeing her

1217
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 2: little body intraction in a crib because he had beaten

1218
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:11,000
Speaker 2: her so senselessly. So again it's hard to stop that

1219
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:15,400
Speaker 2: now it's the faucet's open, but it's hard.

1220
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:18,320
Speaker 3: And yeah, we actually would welcome you know, what do

1221
01:09:18,439 --> 01:09:21,519
Speaker 3: you think about this the line Yeah, where you know,

1222
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:23,360
Speaker 3: give us a call. It's eight and eight three to

1223
01:09:23,360 --> 01:09:27,240
Speaker 3: one crime. This, of course is true crime tonight. And

1224
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:30,280
Speaker 3: the kinds of cases we cover is something that we

1225
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:33,960
Speaker 3: struggle with, you know, particularly as you said, Stephanie, in

1226
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:36,800
Speaker 3: the case of babies.

1227
01:09:36,400 --> 01:09:39,240
Speaker 2: Or young child babies children. But yet we're talking about

1228
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:43,200
Speaker 2: Epstein every night, which is young girls and young also

1229
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:46,040
Speaker 2: with children. So it's it's not a huge bucket that

1230
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:49,599
Speaker 2: we can completely avoid, but sometimes it's just so heavy

1231
01:09:49,640 --> 01:09:51,559
Speaker 2: on the heart. It makes me enraged at night and

1232
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:55,040
Speaker 2: then I can't sleep. But it's important stuff. So I'm

1233
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:57,439
Speaker 2: glad that you cover it so perfectly, Courtney.

1234
01:09:57,520 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 4: So it in a way that that helps it, you know,

1235
01:10:02,479 --> 01:10:06,000
Speaker 4: helps us digest these horrific stories. So but you know,

1236
01:10:06,080 --> 01:10:08,920
Speaker 4: on that note, maybe I can change the mood and

1237
01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:09,360
Speaker 4: I have a.

1238
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:16,120
Speaker 2: Little taste in the second of sunshine, the way something.

1239
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:20,000
Speaker 4: That shifts the energy, and I will lead with It's

1240
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:22,800
Speaker 4: funny because Before this, Stephanie was going to talk about

1241
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:25,519
Speaker 4: a story. She said, no, this story stinks. Well, my

1242
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:28,280
Speaker 4: story really stinks, and you're going to get this joke

1243
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:32,360
Speaker 4: after I go into it. But this story is about

1244
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:36,080
Speaker 4: Stepanty already gets it. That's what she's laughing. Chalice Crowder,

1245
01:10:36,439 --> 01:10:38,320
Speaker 4: I'm going to tell you about his story because he's

1246
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:41,320
Speaker 4: been in the news recently. He's a thirty year thirty

1247
01:10:41,360 --> 01:10:44,920
Speaker 4: eight year old man from Glendale, California, and he has

1248
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:52,759
Speaker 4: been arrested allegedly for sniffing women's buttocks inside Walgreen stores

1249
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:53,400
Speaker 4: in Burbank.

1250
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:56,959
Speaker 2: And okay, this is he's a butt sniffer.

1251
01:10:57,120 --> 01:11:01,559
Speaker 4: He's a butt sniffer. He's officially I guess that's what

1252
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 4: the crime is called. I would imagine.

1253
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:06,880
Speaker 3: Okay, the butt sniffing is its own thing, and I

1254
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:09,200
Speaker 3: don't know what it says about me. I paused more

1255
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:12,120
Speaker 3: about the fact that it sounds like it has been

1256
01:11:12,320 --> 01:11:13,160
Speaker 3: multiple women.

1257
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:19,479
Speaker 2: But the location is a walgreense. NOA, he goes to

1258
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:22,240
Speaker 2: the pharmacy, he goes to the wall, he goes to

1259
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:25,320
Speaker 2: Walgreens and goes to the cosmetic section. And then not.

1260
01:11:25,439 --> 01:11:30,439
Speaker 4: Onlys he's also been accused of doing this at Nordstrom rack.

1261
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:34,000
Speaker 4: So he really knows which doores are? You know, a

1262
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:37,360
Speaker 4: good love story trying his sniffing.

1263
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:39,240
Speaker 2: Bald factory satisfiic faction.

1264
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:42,640
Speaker 4: That's a way of putting it. But he's actually he

1265
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:48,200
Speaker 4: was caught because there were surveillance footage and witnesses they

1266
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:50,839
Speaker 4: saw him doing this, So it looks like I guess.

1267
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:54,240
Speaker 4: He was arrested on August twentieth at a Walgreens in

1268
01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:58,280
Speaker 4: Burbank after employees reported him crouching down behind a female

1269
01:11:58,360 --> 01:12:01,320
Speaker 4: shopper and sniffing her. I mean, I hate to laugh.

1270
01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:05,320
Speaker 2: This is not you know, what can you imagine? I

1271
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 2: could imagine. You know, Burbank attracts can be tough, tough crowd.

1272
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:13,840
Speaker 2: So you're here, you are, You're in Walgreens, just trying

1273
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:17,360
Speaker 2: to get some you know, lipliner a little toner and yeah,

1274
01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:22,360
Speaker 2: tip is a nail file and suddenly so and so

1275
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:23,520
Speaker 2: it's sniffing.

1276
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:27,240
Speaker 4: On my bum. So yeah, but it seems like he's

1277
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:32,640
Speaker 4: had a history of indecent exposure burgulary and you know,

1278
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:36,400
Speaker 4: I think, what is this a viral twenty twenty three

1279
01:12:36,439 --> 01:12:41,360
Speaker 4: TikTok video incident at Barnes and Noble doing similar things

1280
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:45,960
Speaker 4: in a burbank bookstore. Oh yeah, he hits the clothing stores,

1281
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 4: the bookstores. I mean, he definitely spends a lot of

1282
01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 4: time in department stores.

1283
01:12:51,200 --> 01:12:57,519
Speaker 2: But it's yeah, that is so he gets arrested and then.

1284
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:02,760
Speaker 4: He's at it again. He guess he cannot, you know,

1285
01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:07,080
Speaker 4: sort of control himself. But it seems as though authorities

1286
01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:09,800
Speaker 4: are reviewing all the security footage and there have been

1287
01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:13,960
Speaker 4: different stores that are now coming forward to see whether

1288
01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:17,439
Speaker 4: this has been a pattern of his behavior throughout Los

1289
01:13:17,479 --> 01:13:22,160
Speaker 4: Angeles stores. So, you know, it seems as though I

1290
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:28,639
Speaker 4: guess there's a crackdown in Burbank. Burbank. Now watch watch them.

1291
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:29,800
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness.

1292
01:13:30,240 --> 01:13:32,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, wow, be careful, so keep your watch, watch what's

1293
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:37,160
Speaker 4: going on behind you. And we I think I actually

1294
01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:40,200
Speaker 4: initially heard about this story through one of the talkbacks

1295
01:13:40,200 --> 01:13:43,080
Speaker 4: that we had gotten, and we've been getting quite a few,

1296
01:13:43,240 --> 01:13:47,040
Speaker 4: so I actually am excited for Tuesday because that's my

1297
01:13:47,080 --> 01:13:49,840
Speaker 4: favorite day of the week, talkback Tuesday. Yes, and I

1298
01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:53,240
Speaker 4: think Sam and Adam were signaling neat to us earlier

1299
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:55,639
Speaker 4: that they got some talk there for us to jump

1300
01:13:55,680 --> 01:13:57,160
Speaker 4: into La.

1301
01:13:57,680 --> 01:14:02,200
Speaker 10: It's windy from Kansas City, Anada. Just can trying to

1302
01:14:02,200 --> 01:14:07,240
Speaker 10: get my free Canadian swag love the whole basil t

1303
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:10,080
Speaker 10: shirt idea. Anyway, I just want to haul in and

1304
01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:13,639
Speaker 10: see if any of you on the panel has watched

1305
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:17,280
Speaker 10: on Netflix Unknown Number The High School Catfish.

1306
01:14:18,320 --> 01:14:23,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, dropping job, drop babe by. Oh yeah, we have

1307
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:26,360
Speaker 2: to wait until Wednesday, because isn't that the thing we

1308
01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:29,479
Speaker 2: have to watch this week for our crime and chill.

1309
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:32,840
Speaker 2: I'm dying to talk about it, honestly, I even was

1310
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:37,200
Speaker 2: texting with Tah. I am dying to talk about it.

1311
01:14:37,280 --> 01:14:39,559
Speaker 2: So do we have to wait till Wednesday? I guess yes,

1312
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:40,680
Speaker 2: I think so.

1313
01:14:41,160 --> 01:14:43,479
Speaker 4: Okay for ten reasons. Also, because it's going to be

1314
01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:45,200
Speaker 4: we have to do a spoiler alert on this one,

1315
01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:47,080
Speaker 4: because there's some twists in this one that.

1316
01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:49,240
Speaker 2: A spoiler alert.

1317
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:53,600
Speaker 4: Well for now to spoils.

1318
01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:57,000
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm sorry. I was saying, let's not spoil it.

1319
01:14:57,080 --> 01:14:58,680
Speaker 2: Sorry I misused it.

1320
01:14:59,400 --> 01:15:02,040
Speaker 4: Don't spoil ahead and say we're going to go into it.

1321
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:03,320
Speaker 4: But yeah, what did you?

1322
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:07,840
Speaker 3: Well you can't say I'm not allowed to say we

1323
01:15:07,880 --> 01:15:08,639
Speaker 3: all watched it.

1324
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:10,639
Speaker 2: Okay, here's dale.

1325
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:16,200
Speaker 3: I have not, however, but I will before Wednesday. I'm

1326
01:15:16,240 --> 01:15:21,280
Speaker 3: just I am delinquent on this assignment, but I'm so excited. Okay,

1327
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:23,559
Speaker 3: not only and I had mentioned all over you know,

1328
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:26,360
Speaker 3: my social media. My friend's watching it all over everyone's

1329
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:31,439
Speaker 3: social media. My sister who teaches in middle school, hi

1330
01:15:31,640 --> 01:15:38,759
Speaker 3: erin so they she mentioned, totally independent of the show.

1331
01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:42,920
Speaker 3: She's actually fallen a little bit behind. She listens usually daily.

1332
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:47,479
Speaker 3: But she said, oh, the ladies I work with, we

1333
01:15:47,479 --> 01:15:49,160
Speaker 3: were like, we don't want to do a book club,

1334
01:15:49,240 --> 01:15:52,479
Speaker 3: but they're all literally going to watch just like.

1335
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:55,479
Speaker 2: We do True Crime and Chill. And it's this, I said, Okay,

1336
01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:58,800
Speaker 2: a hustle, a call, it's independent.

1337
01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:03,240
Speaker 3: We kind of wrap them into our jam here. For sure,

1338
01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:05,400
Speaker 3: we'll wrap them in. But the point is that, yes,

1339
01:16:05,479 --> 01:16:06,920
Speaker 3: everyone is all over.

1340
01:16:07,280 --> 01:16:10,160
Speaker 2: So we were debating doing this, you know, True Crime

1341
01:16:10,200 --> 01:16:11,840
Speaker 2: and Chill once a month. I think we got to

1342
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:13,519
Speaker 2: do it weekly. I can't wait a month.

1343
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:15,160
Speaker 4: I feel like we can do it weekly. We have

1344
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:17,640
Speaker 4: to do it weekly. There's so many good docs that

1345
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:18,280
Speaker 4: are coming.

1346
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:22,439
Speaker 2: Nothing on TV. Honestly, there's plenty of docs to watch

1347
01:16:22,680 --> 01:16:24,559
Speaker 2: and we have to be able to talk about them.

1348
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:26,479
Speaker 2: And I'm already on the next two that I want

1349
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:27,120
Speaker 2: to talk about.

1350
01:16:27,160 --> 01:16:29,400
Speaker 4: So wait a minute, what already.

1351
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:32,360
Speaker 2: Amanda Knox is pretty good too, the Amanda Knox stuff.

1352
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:36,439
Speaker 4: Oh okay, well I think you know what then, because

1353
01:16:36,439 --> 01:16:38,559
Speaker 4: you just put that out there, maybe I'll make sure

1354
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:39,800
Speaker 4: that's the next one we watch.

1355
01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:41,960
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about it. We can discuss. I'm open

1356
01:16:41,960 --> 01:16:44,920
Speaker 2: to suggestions, but I'm maybe been the scripted version right now,

1357
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:48,080
Speaker 2: which is very good. I love that actress from Tell

1358
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:51,479
Speaker 2: Me Lies or yeah, tell Me Lies. Yeah, she's very

1359
01:16:51,479 --> 01:16:54,280
Speaker 2: good as well. I don't know. Oh she plays her

1360
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:59,559
Speaker 2: very well. Anyway, I jump I digress. But yes, our

1361
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:05,960
Speaker 2: next this unknown number is chilling. And the Betrayal Betrayal

1362
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:10,880
Speaker 2: we had her on the show. I just started it

1363
01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:13,040
Speaker 2: and I stopped it because I didn't want to watch.

1364
01:17:13,080 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, it's actually very good.

1365
01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:18,920
Speaker 3: I can't wait to watch Betrayal as well. All right, listen,

1366
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:22,719
Speaker 3: keep it here True Crime tonight. We're going to continue

1367
01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:27,160
Speaker 3: hearing your thoughts through dms, through talkbacks, through all of

1368
01:17:27,200 --> 01:17:30,160
Speaker 3: the above, or come join us live eight at eight

1369
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:33,320
Speaker 3: three one crime. Keep it here, True Crime tonight. When

1370
01:17:33,320 --> 01:17:35,519
Speaker 3: we're talking true crime all the time.

1371
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:48,559
Speaker 2: So guys, first of all, this night has flown by

1372
01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:52,000
Speaker 2: yet again. I get the giggles right around this comment.

1373
01:17:52,200 --> 01:17:55,160
Speaker 2: So please forgive me. It's like a nervous reaction to

1374
01:17:55,240 --> 01:17:58,280
Speaker 2: sad things. By the way, my chest cold has totally

1375
01:17:58,280 --> 01:18:01,680
Speaker 2: cleared up thanks to Bis and Ginger. We've gotten so

1376
01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:05,080
Speaker 2: many Ginger thanks for the reach out for the tips

1377
01:18:05,120 --> 01:18:10,160
Speaker 2: that the audience sent, including my mom also sent the tip.

1378
01:18:10,200 --> 01:18:13,879
Speaker 2: But it really does work Vix and Ginger, as body mentioned,

1379
01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:16,160
Speaker 2: and the Vex do you do it like an old

1380
01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:18,320
Speaker 2: fat like I didn't grow up with this? Is it

1381
01:18:18,400 --> 01:18:20,559
Speaker 2: literally rub it on your chest like they do in

1382
01:18:20,600 --> 01:18:26,919
Speaker 2: the It's so great, it's not. Yes, it was Cynthia

1383
01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:29,840
Speaker 2: also listeners. Cynthonia told me to put put it from

1384
01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:32,840
Speaker 2: my ears. Yeah, from like she had like a whole

1385
01:18:33,479 --> 01:18:36,519
Speaker 2: regiment that was actually quite good. And and I swear

1386
01:18:36,520 --> 01:18:39,160
Speaker 2: we're not like doing a promotion for a Vix right now.

1387
01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:42,400
Speaker 2: But if you take the Vix tabs and put them

1388
01:18:42,439 --> 01:18:45,720
Speaker 2: in your shower, their effervescent and it turns into a

1389
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:50,040
Speaker 2: steam with Vix, imagine and it's exactly what you would imagine.

1390
01:18:50,080 --> 01:18:52,439
Speaker 2: So you can get those. Yeah, I got them online anyway,

1391
01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:56,920
Speaker 2: I digress. But that's men just sharing a little you know,

1392
01:18:57,000 --> 01:19:03,320
Speaker 2: hay fever head cold Extravaganza update. Amen, So let's get

1393
01:19:03,360 --> 01:19:04,040
Speaker 2: to or talk.

1394
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:05,000
Speaker 1: Back my ladies.

1395
01:19:05,080 --> 01:19:09,439
Speaker 11: Earlier from Australia, just on Haley's comment about the mushroom Lady,

1396
01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:10,519
Speaker 11: the mushroom killer here in.

1397
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:12,640
Speaker 2: Victoria in Australia.

1398
01:19:12,760 --> 01:19:16,400
Speaker 11: She's actually being sentenced next Monday, the eighth of September

1399
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:18,680
Speaker 11: out time, so that will pretty much line up with

1400
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:20,920
Speaker 11: when you guys are talking about it with Joseph in

1401
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:22,799
Speaker 11: terms of time zone changes.

1402
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:28,519
Speaker 2: So good timing. Thanks. What as if we didn't know that,

1403
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:32,519
Speaker 2: we were already thinking that, but that is exactly right,

1404
01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:35,920
Speaker 2: that's the plan. So just for the record, Joseph Scott Morgan,

1405
01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:38,360
Speaker 2: who would normally be with us on Sundays, but you

1406
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:41,599
Speaker 2: know he's been like gallivanting at Crime Con. It's refer

1407
01:19:41,960 --> 01:19:45,800
Speaker 2: with Nancy Grace and you know, holding down the stages.

1408
01:19:45,880 --> 01:19:50,760
Speaker 2: He did like five main stage performances and a performance

1409
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:54,160
Speaker 2: is not the word. I guess it's a it's a panel. Yeah,

1410
01:19:54,160 --> 01:19:58,080
Speaker 2: he's not dancing. It's actually very serious. But he's done

1411
01:19:58,080 --> 01:20:01,000
Speaker 2: his very serious thing. I think with Nancy Grace about

1412
01:20:01,120 --> 01:20:02,960
Speaker 2: five times over this weekend.

1413
01:20:03,200 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 3: So and he I have to say, he's such a

1414
01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:11,040
Speaker 3: lovely and lovable human and we've had just the real

1415
01:20:11,200 --> 01:20:13,400
Speaker 3: luck to have him in our lives for a bunch

1416
01:20:13,400 --> 01:20:18,200
Speaker 3: of years now, Joseph and his wife Kim, Kim, Kim's

1417
01:20:18,240 --> 01:20:22,679
Speaker 3: the best, is right. I will say it was kind

1418
01:20:22,720 --> 01:20:25,479
Speaker 3: of a riot that, you know, knowing Joseph how we

1419
01:20:25,520 --> 01:20:29,040
Speaker 3: do and then seeing it crime con The man's got fans.

1420
01:20:29,240 --> 01:20:32,600
Speaker 2: No, no, no no. He was signing T shirts on

1421
01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:36,320
Speaker 2: people's bodies. True story, so you know he does body

1422
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:39,600
Speaker 2: bags the podcast and Bible. Honestly, Courtney, you and I

1423
01:20:39,600 --> 01:20:43,360
Speaker 2: were howling he was. And Kim his amazing wife of

1424
01:20:43,800 --> 01:20:47,200
Speaker 2: since the beginning of tiling, like they've been together forever.

1425
01:20:47,640 --> 01:20:50,240
Speaker 2: They they have body bags T shirts and then he

1426
01:20:50,320 --> 01:20:51,639
Speaker 2: signs that he.

1427
01:20:51,560 --> 01:20:52,519
Speaker 4: Has gone the body.

1428
01:20:52,680 --> 01:20:57,519
Speaker 2: Yes, the ladies love him to like yeah, mine around

1429
01:20:57,560 --> 01:20:57,880
Speaker 2: the lot.

1430
01:20:59,400 --> 01:20:59,800
Speaker 4: I like this.

1431
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:06,400
Speaker 2: Yes, not a bad reference. Yes, minus any of the

1432
01:21:06,439 --> 01:21:11,000
Speaker 2: acrobats off of stage, not a bad reference. Yes, I

1433
01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:12,240
Speaker 2: love him, Benson Boone.

1434
01:21:12,280 --> 01:21:15,200
Speaker 4: This mushroom story has come up so much that I

1435
01:21:15,240 --> 01:21:17,760
Speaker 4: feel like we've talked a lot about it off.

1436
01:21:18,120 --> 01:21:20,320
Speaker 2: I can't wait to talk about it as a deep dive.

1437
01:21:20,479 --> 01:21:22,200
Speaker 4: So we're going to do a deep dive. We'll figure

1438
01:21:22,200 --> 01:21:24,519
Speaker 4: out whether we do that this week or we wait

1439
01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:26,439
Speaker 4: until Joseph is back next Sunday.

1440
01:21:26,479 --> 01:21:30,120
Speaker 2: But either way, we know next Sunday for sure, because

1441
01:21:30,120 --> 01:21:33,519
Speaker 2: it works sense with this like big trial situation.

1442
01:21:34,120 --> 01:21:36,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think we'll we'll dig into that. And

1443
01:21:37,120 --> 01:21:39,479
Speaker 4: as a result, I've not eaten any mushrooms since he

1444
01:21:39,560 --> 01:21:41,640
Speaker 4: first rut. I don't know what the problem is and

1445
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:45,080
Speaker 4: I want to nobody should. Yeah, so that's a good one.

1446
01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:48,640
Speaker 3: But she went listen, she went out looking for it.

1447
01:21:48,680 --> 01:21:52,400
Speaker 3: If someone's given you a Wellington, I'd feel okay in general.

1448
01:21:52,439 --> 01:21:54,759
Speaker 3: Although it was very funny the first time we covered

1449
01:21:54,800 --> 01:21:57,240
Speaker 3: this after the show, Taha.

1450
01:21:56,840 --> 01:22:03,400
Speaker 2: Was like, Wellington does sound kind of good, but would

1451
01:22:03,520 --> 01:22:06,120
Speaker 2: not even I wouldn't even do that. That's just like

1452
01:22:06,240 --> 01:22:06,880
Speaker 2: take the note.

1453
01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:09,639
Speaker 4: Take the note. All right. We'll keep that in mind

1454
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:10,240
Speaker 4: and we.

1455
01:22:10,240 --> 01:22:11,120
Speaker 2: Have another talk back.

1456
01:22:11,479 --> 01:22:13,759
Speaker 12: Yeah, Crocker here from Newfoundland, Canada.

1457
01:22:14,240 --> 01:22:14,360
Speaker 2: Hi.

1458
01:22:14,560 --> 01:22:19,679
Speaker 12: Listening to Thursday night's episode and wondering if Bkay's parents

1459
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:23,479
Speaker 12: and family knew that he was fired from his TA position,

1460
01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:26,639
Speaker 12: and if so, the reasoning for it.

1461
01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:29,960
Speaker 6: I don't know that I clocked that, and listening to everything.

1462
01:22:30,200 --> 01:22:32,840
Speaker 2: So great, great question. We actually don't know the answer

1463
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:36,920
Speaker 2: to that because they have not come forward to say so.

1464
01:22:37,680 --> 01:22:41,200
Speaker 2: It did appear that the walls were closing in on him.

1465
01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:44,040
Speaker 2: Please listen to the podcast out right now to the

1466
01:22:44,080 --> 01:22:49,240
Speaker 2: Idaho Massacre Season three. Courtney narrates so incredibly. You'll hear

1467
01:22:49,280 --> 01:22:52,280
Speaker 2: her voice and it will just feel like the coziest

1468
01:22:52,280 --> 01:22:55,640
Speaker 2: blanket you've ever held. So good. But that is a

1469
01:22:55,680 --> 01:23:00,720
Speaker 2: big question of a question of mine. Frankly, did they

1470
01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:03,400
Speaker 2: know that this was a dead end for him at

1471
01:23:03,439 --> 01:23:07,720
Speaker 2: this university and that's why Dad flew there to go

1472
01:23:07,800 --> 01:23:11,439
Speaker 2: home with him? Because that flight is under a lot

1473
01:23:11,479 --> 01:23:16,400
Speaker 2: of controversy, meaning Brian Coburger was no longer going to

1474
01:23:16,479 --> 01:23:20,559
Speaker 2: have his teacher's assistant position. He knew that, and the

1475
01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:23,679
Speaker 2: walls were therefore closing in. It was a ticking clock

1476
01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:27,720
Speaker 2: on this life. Now did mom and Dad know? We

1477
01:23:27,840 --> 01:23:32,000
Speaker 2: do know that Dad flies to meet him and drive

1478
01:23:32,120 --> 01:23:37,040
Speaker 2: home with him in his Hondai Elantra infamously so, and

1479
01:23:37,439 --> 01:23:42,200
Speaker 2: that trip has been wildly discussed and debated. We do

1480
01:23:42,400 --> 01:23:46,240
Speaker 2: not know what happened in that car where they pulled

1481
01:23:46,240 --> 01:23:49,599
Speaker 2: over twice and Dad was like, holy smokes, my son

1482
01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:52,639
Speaker 2: is a killer and he's about to get arrested. Or

1483
01:23:53,400 --> 01:23:56,320
Speaker 2: was Dad just on a road trip not thinking at

1484
01:23:56,360 --> 01:23:58,760
Speaker 2: all that his son had anything to do with this

1485
01:23:59,560 --> 01:24:05,200
Speaker 2: or as Kaylee Gonzalveez victim, her family believe strongly, and

1486
01:24:05,280 --> 01:24:09,439
Speaker 2: you'll hear this on the podcast, that they knew and

1487
01:24:09,560 --> 01:24:12,679
Speaker 2: flew out for a very specific reason and perhaps knew

1488
01:24:12,680 --> 01:24:15,800
Speaker 2: that job was no more and that maybe Brian had

1489
01:24:15,840 --> 01:24:18,400
Speaker 2: done something very bad.

1490
01:24:18,439 --> 01:24:23,679
Speaker 3: Tracks stand by, though Stephanie fact checked me, but didn't.

1491
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:28,559
Speaker 3: BKA's father also come at the beginning of the semester, yes,

1492
01:24:28,640 --> 01:24:31,240
Speaker 3: to drop him off at college.

1493
01:24:31,720 --> 01:24:32,400
Speaker 2: Very odd.

1494
01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:35,360
Speaker 3: B Kay was a man, he could have been married

1495
01:24:35,439 --> 01:24:37,920
Speaker 3: or in the military. He was twenty eight years old,

1496
01:24:40,200 --> 01:24:43,920
Speaker 3: pushing thirty to drop him off, and also tried to

1497
01:24:44,040 --> 01:24:48,160
Speaker 3: chat with you know, neighbors to try and help secure

1498
01:24:48,240 --> 01:24:50,720
Speaker 3: even you know, maybe one friend or someone to speak to.

1499
01:24:51,479 --> 01:24:56,040
Speaker 3: All that to be said their relationship. Listen, we don't

1500
01:24:56,080 --> 01:24:58,439
Speaker 3: know what happened, so right, I'm.

1501
01:24:58,280 --> 01:25:01,439
Speaker 2: Strong what you're saying is so on because, by by

1502
01:25:01,439 --> 01:25:04,280
Speaker 2: the way, Matgine, being twenty seven years old and your

1503
01:25:04,400 --> 01:25:07,160
Speaker 2: dad has to bring you to school, we know. But

1504
01:25:07,200 --> 01:25:09,880
Speaker 2: by the way, I'm one hundred thousand, million jillion years

1505
01:25:09,920 --> 01:25:12,320
Speaker 2: old and my mom comes and we go school shopping

1506
01:25:12,479 --> 01:25:16,240
Speaker 2: in my head, but like regardless, so dad comes with you.

1507
01:25:16,280 --> 01:25:19,160
Speaker 2: But then dad starts talking to all your neighbors trying

1508
01:25:19,200 --> 01:25:21,680
Speaker 2: to make you friends. He literally was like, Oh, my

1509
01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:25,400
Speaker 2: son just moved in and he's so nice, and he's

1510
01:25:25,439 --> 01:25:27,920
Speaker 2: a little shy, but he's lovely and maybe you can

1511
01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:31,280
Speaker 2: make friends with him, as if dad knew. Hey, my

1512
01:25:31,360 --> 01:25:34,400
Speaker 2: son's a little weird and has a hard time being

1513
01:25:34,479 --> 01:25:38,080
Speaker 2: social in any situation. So I'm going to bridge the

1514
01:25:38,120 --> 01:25:40,680
Speaker 2: gap right now, that's my role. I've been playing it

1515
01:25:40,720 --> 01:25:43,639
Speaker 2: for twenty seven years, and I'm going to continue this

1516
01:25:43,800 --> 01:25:47,280
Speaker 2: even with my adult man son who's off to getting

1517
01:25:47,320 --> 01:25:50,120
Speaker 2: his PhD. Right now, here's the thing, and we talked

1518
01:25:50,120 --> 01:25:52,519
Speaker 2: about this in the podcast Unpack. It's not a tease,

1519
01:25:52,720 --> 01:25:55,360
Speaker 2: but it's a tease. Why didn't you buy the ticket

1520
01:25:55,400 --> 01:25:58,680
Speaker 2: the night before? So according to the Gonzalvez family, this

1521
01:25:58,800 --> 01:26:02,360
Speaker 2: was not a planned thing, was spontaneous, and was the

1522
01:26:02,400 --> 01:26:05,959
Speaker 2: spontaneous purchase of that. It wasn't like a long planned

1523
01:26:06,520 --> 01:26:10,920
Speaker 2: drive home of Monk's father's son. As you know, we

1524
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:15,519
Speaker 2: all had been interpreting the information that they were going on.

1525
01:26:15,560 --> 01:26:18,960
Speaker 2: They that this is what they did. They drove home together.

1526
01:26:19,200 --> 01:26:21,680
Speaker 2: They drove two things together. By the way, they did

1527
01:26:21,760 --> 01:26:25,400
Speaker 2: have a very close relationship and we know that Brian weirdo.

1528
01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:29,680
Speaker 2: We can say now forever calling mom and dad, mother, father,

1529
01:26:30,520 --> 01:26:33,839
Speaker 2: calling them incessantly and all the days, all the times,

1530
01:26:33,920 --> 01:26:38,639
Speaker 2: all the things. But it was a spontaneous ticket purchase.

1531
01:26:38,880 --> 01:26:42,759
Speaker 2: And don't think for a second that the Gonzalvez family

1532
01:26:43,080 --> 01:26:47,439
Speaker 2: is not enraged over it and feels as though it

1533
01:26:47,680 --> 01:26:51,599
Speaker 2: was intentional. Yeah, we don't know the answer. I feel

1534
01:26:51,640 --> 01:26:52,559
Speaker 2: for all parties here.

1535
01:26:52,680 --> 01:26:54,439
Speaker 4: I feel for the dad, and I was just going

1536
01:26:54,479 --> 01:26:56,519
Speaker 4: to say, like, I'm going to give Dad a pass

1537
01:26:56,720 --> 01:26:58,720
Speaker 4: or in the sense of, you know, if he was

1538
01:26:58,880 --> 01:27:02,960
Speaker 4: introducing going to the neighbors and saying sweet, how sweet

1539
01:27:03,040 --> 01:27:05,800
Speaker 4: is this? He knows his son, I think he was

1540
01:27:05,800 --> 01:27:07,600
Speaker 4: diagnosed with all he was autistic.

1541
01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:08,000
Speaker 9: You know.

1542
01:27:08,240 --> 01:27:10,880
Speaker 2: Dad's like, my autistic son has a hard time kicking

1543
01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:12,280
Speaker 2: social initiatives.

1544
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:15,080
Speaker 4: You know, that's you know, even I imagine the first

1545
01:27:15,120 --> 01:27:18,320
Speaker 4: time in college. That's normal. But maybe because his son

1546
01:27:18,360 --> 01:27:20,080
Speaker 4: is a bit awkward, He's like, let me take my

1547
01:27:20,160 --> 01:27:22,360
Speaker 4: son there, I help him get settled. Then, So I'm

1548
01:27:22,439 --> 01:27:26,320
Speaker 4: I'm team Dad with that, But you know, I don't know.

1549
01:27:26,400 --> 01:27:28,360
Speaker 4: I still there's a lot of questions I still have

1550
01:27:28,479 --> 01:27:28,920
Speaker 4: about it.

1551
01:27:29,000 --> 01:27:31,760
Speaker 2: And that's what's so interesting about this case is that

1552
01:27:32,000 --> 01:27:35,719
Speaker 2: you know, we we look at our loved ones through

1553
01:27:35,920 --> 01:27:39,280
Speaker 2: such a specific lens, right, and by the way, we

1554
01:27:39,280 --> 01:27:42,280
Speaker 2: should all be loved enough for someone to look at

1555
01:27:42,360 --> 01:27:46,280
Speaker 2: us through a specific lens. So imagine it's your child

1556
01:27:46,640 --> 01:27:50,360
Speaker 2: who may be somewhere in your gut you're like, something's off,

1557
01:27:50,920 --> 01:27:53,080
Speaker 2: but that's the last thing you want to believe. So

1558
01:27:53,120 --> 01:27:56,160
Speaker 2: you want an effort towards success and push through and

1559
01:27:56,479 --> 01:27:58,880
Speaker 2: all the things. And if that means I have to

1560
01:27:58,960 --> 01:28:03,640
Speaker 2: fly to school and introduce my adult son who is

1561
01:28:04,000 --> 01:28:07,200
Speaker 2: weird by all accounts, but like here we are, I'm

1562
01:28:07,200 --> 01:28:09,680
Speaker 2: going to introduce you and try to set him up

1563
01:28:09,680 --> 01:28:12,800
Speaker 2: for success. Yeah, it also just rips my heart out.

1564
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:16,040
Speaker 2: You know, Dad was you know, a janitor at the

1565
01:28:16,080 --> 01:28:20,160
Speaker 2: school and like he went bankrupt. He like literally they

1566
01:28:20,160 --> 01:28:23,280
Speaker 2: put everything on the line to send Brian to school.

1567
01:28:23,640 --> 01:28:26,519
Speaker 2: So it is sort of a tip scale. Now, by

1568
01:28:26,520 --> 01:28:28,840
Speaker 2: the way, if you're a victim's family member who cares

1569
01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:32,040
Speaker 2: right like they're like, lose my number, that's no excuse.

1570
01:28:32,479 --> 01:28:36,439
Speaker 2: And he was a maniac, but sometimes we don't want

1571
01:28:36,439 --> 01:28:37,960
Speaker 2: to see that in somebody we love.

1572
01:28:38,479 --> 01:28:40,880
Speaker 4: I'm Dinah, ask the two of you something, since you've

1573
01:28:40,880 --> 01:28:44,880
Speaker 4: been so deep into all of this case. Do you

1574
01:28:45,040 --> 01:28:48,120
Speaker 4: think one of his family members will come forward and

1575
01:28:48,160 --> 01:28:50,719
Speaker 4: talk or we'll get to hear And if so, which

1576
01:28:50,720 --> 01:28:52,240
Speaker 4: one do you think would be the first? The mother,

1577
01:28:52,439 --> 01:28:54,920
Speaker 4: the father, or his sister? What are your thoughts?

1578
01:28:55,600 --> 01:28:58,280
Speaker 3: So I have a feeling and I know there is

1579
01:28:58,360 --> 01:29:02,000
Speaker 3: speculation that a book potentially being written to me that

1580
01:29:02,040 --> 01:29:05,160
Speaker 3: does seem odd since the family collectively has been silent.

1581
01:29:05,720 --> 01:29:07,759
Speaker 3: If I had to guess, and it only is guessing

1582
01:29:07,760 --> 01:29:10,599
Speaker 3: because there's no facts to my knowledge right now, I

1583
01:29:10,640 --> 01:29:15,520
Speaker 3: think information will only come out if there's civil trials,

1584
01:29:16,200 --> 01:29:21,400
Speaker 3: which I would anticipate, but otherwise I wouldn't anticipate the

1585
01:29:21,439 --> 01:29:22,960
Speaker 3: family speaking out.

1586
01:29:23,200 --> 01:29:25,160
Speaker 4: Okay, Steph, what do you think?

1587
01:29:25,600 --> 01:29:30,760
Speaker 2: My hope is that one of Brian's sisters will be

1588
01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:36,679
Speaker 2: able to speak about his childhood and give us some

1589
01:29:36,760 --> 01:29:40,080
Speaker 2: insight into his family life and what it was like

1590
01:29:40,160 --> 01:29:42,599
Speaker 2: to be a sibling. Can you imagine being a sibling

1591
01:29:42,840 --> 01:29:47,840
Speaker 2: of a murderer, a mass murderer, no less of this kind?

1592
01:29:48,520 --> 01:29:51,040
Speaker 2: You know, like they knew him, and they knew him well,

1593
01:29:51,280 --> 01:29:53,880
Speaker 2: and he had older sisters that loved him, and a

1594
01:29:53,920 --> 01:29:57,200
Speaker 2: mother and father that loved him. If I'm guessing Mom

1595
01:29:57,240 --> 01:30:02,479
Speaker 2: and Dad, it's too soon too close, and it's so brutal.

1596
01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:07,680
Speaker 2: But I would hope that his sisters or one of

1597
01:30:07,720 --> 01:30:12,320
Speaker 2: them will offer some insight because I do think in retrospect,

1598
01:30:12,880 --> 01:30:15,000
Speaker 2: which is how we should look at this case as

1599
01:30:15,560 --> 01:30:19,080
Speaker 2: what were the red flags that now in hindsight can

1600
01:30:19,160 --> 01:30:22,080
Speaker 2: be gathered, right you know, Courtney were need deepan And

1601
01:30:23,280 --> 01:30:28,280
Speaker 2: we're making a podcast which really inspired by this case,

1602
01:30:28,479 --> 01:30:31,080
Speaker 2: about in cells and we're pretty knee deep in it

1603
01:30:31,160 --> 01:30:35,599
Speaker 2: right now. And it has never been determined that Brian

1604
01:30:35,680 --> 01:30:39,360
Speaker 2: Koberger was a member of an in cell or an

1605
01:30:39,520 --> 01:30:44,479
Speaker 2: in cell, but it's in the popular conversation right now,

1606
01:30:44,560 --> 01:30:46,880
Speaker 2: so we thought it was appropriate to do a real

1607
01:30:46,960 --> 01:30:50,200
Speaker 2: deep dive into what that means. And I think from

1608
01:30:50,200 --> 01:30:54,320
Speaker 2: a cautionary tale perspective, I hope a family member comes

1609
01:30:54,320 --> 01:30:58,280
Speaker 2: forward to sort of share what they saw and what

1610
01:30:58,320 --> 01:31:02,280
Speaker 2: they didn't see in retrospects, again with no shame, no

1611
01:31:02,680 --> 01:31:05,760
Speaker 2: you know, when no one's casting judgment. But how do

1612
01:31:05,800 --> 01:31:11,080
Speaker 2: we all keep ourselves safer from people like Brian Coburger

1613
01:31:11,760 --> 01:31:14,599
Speaker 2: when we don't know what those little cues or hints

1614
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:18,200
Speaker 2: were perhaps early on and we be and there were

1615
01:31:18,360 --> 01:31:21,320
Speaker 2: sometimes there are not and it's easy. One morning we

1616
01:31:21,560 --> 01:31:24,439
Speaker 2: know there were. I mean, we interviewed people we know

1617
01:31:24,479 --> 01:31:28,599
Speaker 2: from high school. There were Again it seemed like small things,

1618
01:31:28,720 --> 01:31:33,679
Speaker 2: but now retrospectively they were very big things, and maybe

1619
01:31:33,720 --> 01:31:36,960
Speaker 2: stuff that even I really overlooked as like, really, is

1620
01:31:37,000 --> 01:31:39,920
Speaker 2: that really a red flag or is just that just

1621
01:31:40,000 --> 01:31:43,960
Speaker 2: like the weirdo outcast at one point in high school.

1622
01:31:44,040 --> 01:31:46,280
Speaker 2: By the way, having been that, we've all been there.

1623
01:31:46,760 --> 01:31:48,960
Speaker 2: You know what it's like to be like on the outside.

1624
01:31:48,960 --> 01:31:50,439
Speaker 2: We all know what it's like to be me inside,

1625
01:31:50,720 --> 01:31:52,920
Speaker 2: what it's like to fit in. So like the compassionate

1626
01:31:53,000 --> 01:31:57,320
Speaker 2: side wants to justify, but now we know better this

1627
01:31:57,400 --> 01:32:01,719
Speaker 2: guy was a maniac, so we should unpack that. Yeah, anyway,

1628
01:32:01,920 --> 01:32:06,800
Speaker 2: not to end on a down note, but here we are.

1629
01:32:06,920 --> 01:32:10,000
Speaker 2: We have a lot of exciting things, like Jarrett Farantino

1630
01:32:10,360 --> 01:32:14,920
Speaker 2: are our favorite lass here tomorrow. He'll be with us

1631
01:32:14,960 --> 01:32:17,080
Speaker 2: tomorrow night breaking down a bunch of cases. We also

1632
01:32:17,160 --> 01:32:20,559
Speaker 2: have Lisa Bryant this week talking about Epstein. This is

1633
01:32:20,560 --> 01:32:23,360
Speaker 2: True Crime tonight. Thank you for the wonderful evening. We'll

1634
01:32:23,479 --> 01:32:24,320
Speaker 2: talk to you tomorrow.