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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for Session four thirty seven and the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after word from our sponsors. This week, we're wrapping

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Speaker 1: up our Siblings sit down series with a heartfelt and

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Speaker 1: nostalgic conversation featuring Sarah Amos and Reverend Sean Amos. Together,

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Speaker 1: we explore the depth of their sibling bond, how there's

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Speaker 1: shared history shaped their identities, and the ways they've supported

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Speaker 1: one another through both grief and growth. The conversation also

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Speaker 1: touches on themes of healing, creativity, and family legacy. Reminding

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Speaker 1: us of the way siblings can both challenge and anchor

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Speaker 1: us on our personal journeys. If something resonates with you

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Speaker 1: while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social

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Speaker 1: media using the hashtag TVG in Session, or join us

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Speaker 1: over in our Patreon channel. To talk more about the episode,

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Speaker 1: you can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls

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Speaker 1: dot Com. Here's our conversation. Well, I'm very excited to

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Speaker 1: be chatting with you. Thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 1: me today. Sarah and Reverend Sean, thank.

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Speaker 2: You, thank you. We're happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So, for people who may not be familiar, Sarah,

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Speaker 1: can you tell us a little bit about who you are.

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Speaker 3: I'm Sarah Amos, and I am the host of a

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Speaker 3: new podcast called Tough Cookie The Wally Famous Amos Story.

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Speaker 3: I am a producer and journalist by trade and my

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Speaker 3: day job. And I am also the daughter of Wally Amos,

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Speaker 3: hence the podcast. But most importantly for today's purposes and

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna toss it over. I am also the sister

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Speaker 3: of Reverend Shawn Amos.

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Speaker 4: I'm Sarah's sister Sean brother Sean. Yeah, sometimes I feel

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Speaker 4: like I'm am my sister. I have a strong feminine side.

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Speaker 4: I am Sarah, Sarah's older brother Sean. People call me Rev.

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Speaker 4: I'm known as the Reverend Shawn Amos because I'm a

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Speaker 4: blues singer and I perform under the name of the

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Speaker 4: Reverend Shawn Amass. So the longer I've done it, some

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Speaker 4: people call me Sean, some people call me Rev. And

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Speaker 4: depends on what you call me is a giveaway how

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Speaker 4: long you've known me. I'm the youngest son of Wally

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Speaker 4: Famous Amos. We have two older brothers, and yeah, that's

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Speaker 4: me beautiful.

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Speaker 1: So I love their transition to throwing to your brother, Sarah.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if you can all get us started by

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Speaker 1: just talking to us a little bit about what your

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Speaker 1: relationship was like when you were younger children.

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Speaker 3: I am from my dad's third marriage and I'm fifteen

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Speaker 3: years younger than Sean, and my relationship with each of

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Speaker 3: my siblings was a little bit different, and growing up,

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Speaker 3: I was definitely the closest to Sean. In the podcast,

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Speaker 3: I jokingly refer to all of my siblings as the

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Speaker 3: guest stars and the sitcom of my life because they

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Speaker 3: would come in and out and Sean. I would say,

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Speaker 3: Sean probably was like less of a guest star and

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Speaker 3: more of a recurring character. He was not a regular

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Speaker 3: on the sitcom, but he showed up with enough regularity

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Speaker 3: that we always had a relationship that.

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Speaker 2: I knew was there.

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Speaker 3: But in the younger years of my life, definitely, I

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Speaker 3: think if you gut checked asked me, like, how would

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Speaker 3: you describe yourself? I think mostly I would still even then,

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Speaker 3: describe myself as an only child. It's not till I've

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Speaker 3: gotten older that I've started always describing myself as someone

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Speaker 3: who has siblings.

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Speaker 4: It's interesting. I was living in Hawaii when Sarah was born,

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Speaker 4: So I moved to Hawaii and I'm so bad with years.

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Speaker 4: But our father, and that's interesting too. You'll notice there's

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Speaker 4: times when we say our father and there's times when

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Speaker 4: we say my father, and that's indicative of the kind

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Speaker 4: of the newness of seeing ourselves as having this sort

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Speaker 4: of shared experience. But our father asked me to move

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Speaker 4: to Hawaii with with Sarah's mother, Christine, my stepmother, before

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Speaker 4: Sarah was born, and so I lived with them for

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Speaker 4: a bit of time before Sarah was born, and when

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Speaker 4: she was born, I was really excited to be a

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Speaker 4: big brother because I'd been the youngest until then. In

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Speaker 4: my experience with our older siblings were similar to Sarah's.

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Speaker 4: They were the guest stars in my life, and only

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Speaker 4: they came in and beat the shit out of me

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Speaker 4: and then split, So it was it was a very

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Speaker 4: different kind of experience, and so I was really excited

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Speaker 4: to be a big sibling but also have a presence

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Speaker 4: in her life. And I really was looking forward to

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Speaker 4: crafting some kind of ongoing relationship and it didn't happen

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Speaker 4: because of my own troubles with our father, and I

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Speaker 4: ended up leaving Hawaii and sort of went down to

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Speaker 4: my own my journey so got in the way. But

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Speaker 4: it was all always really important for me to not

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Speaker 4: disappear on Sarah and to know, however, know that was

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Speaker 4: there even if it wasn't regularly. And I think over

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Speaker 4: the years we're just gotten closer and closer and closer

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Speaker 4: and closer, where I think we rely on each other

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Speaker 4: in a lot of really fundamental ways.

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Speaker 1: So I want to get the kind of family dynamic

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Speaker 1: street So Shulone or Reverend Schaan, you are the only

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Speaker 1: child of your mother and your father.

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Speaker 4: Correct, And then.

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Speaker 1: There are two older brothers who have your father and

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Speaker 1: another mother, correct, and then Sarah, you are your father

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Speaker 1: and your.

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Speaker 3: Mother, correct, and then the two Then there were two

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Speaker 3: wives after my mother who had no children, and the

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Speaker 3: last wife he married, divorced, and remarried again. So it's

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Speaker 3: a lot of family dynamics.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, families look all kinds of

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Speaker 1: different ways. For sure, they're definitely vitually got it. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like you had been excited to be

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Speaker 1: a big brother and then things happen and you actually

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Speaker 1: were not there. It's like the big brother that you

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Speaker 1: dreamed about. But Sarah described you as being a regular character.

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Speaker 1: So at what frequency were you all seeing one another?

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Speaker 2: It was like every couple of years.

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Speaker 3: The thing that I will say that was great about

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Speaker 3: Sean is when he did come to visit. I have

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Speaker 3: like very specific memories, like he took me to an

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Speaker 3: Alani's more Set concert when I was like thirteen.

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Speaker 2: And when he would come to town, he would always.

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Speaker 3: Bring a new girlfriend and I was always very excited

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Speaker 3: about the girlfriends and they were always very cool. I

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Speaker 3: have these memories of when he would come to town,

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Speaker 3: he would really be there and he called a bit

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Speaker 3: more than the other brothers. I think also just maybe

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Speaker 3: Dad was more still active in your drama, Sean. So

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Speaker 3: I think part of it also is I just had

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Speaker 3: a better front row seat sometimes to some of the

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Speaker 3: drama going on with you.

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Speaker 2: Maybe than Michael and Gregory. But there was a present there.

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Speaker 3: And then it was when I went to college that

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Speaker 3: our relationship started to shift. And it's because both of

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Speaker 3: us really made a concerted effort. I chose USC in

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Speaker 3: Los Angeles in part because it was very close to

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Speaker 3: my grandparents, but also in part because it was close

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Speaker 3: to Sean, and we really made a concerted effort to

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Speaker 3: see each other on a very regular basis, even though

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Speaker 3: I was a college freshman and sophomore right and had

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Speaker 3: this busy life. But like we really from then on

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Speaker 3: always put our relationship as a priority.

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Speaker 4: I feel like, yeah, for sure, Yeah, I saw it

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Speaker 4: as a big victory. When she decided to come to

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Speaker 4: LA for college was in the same town. That was

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Speaker 4: a big deal for me. Yeah, I want to leverage

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Speaker 4: that opportunity as much as possible. So I was starting

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Speaker 4: a young family, me and my own family around that

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Speaker 4: time or pret soon thereafter, so she had a place

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Speaker 4: to go to and she was sort of witnessing the

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Speaker 4: launch of my own family, and so it was a

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Speaker 4: good time. It was a good time, I think good.

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Speaker 4: That was definitely a turning point. I could offer some

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Speaker 4: to spend some brotherly advice from time to time. And

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Speaker 4: we also were starting to choose similar lines of work

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Speaker 4: in that and that we're both getting in the entertainment space.

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Speaker 4: And we've always been wired really similarly. We're both have

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Speaker 4: our father's work ethic, and we really value the notion

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Speaker 4: of just digging in deep to our work and being

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Speaker 4: pretty fearless about throwing ourselves into new spaces. And so

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Speaker 4: we had a lot in common. We had a lot

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Speaker 4: to talk about, and we had a lot of advice

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Speaker 4: to share with each other, and sort of we're each

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Speaker 4: other's We've always been really big cheerleaders for each other.

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Speaker 4: It's actually good.

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Speaker 2: It's really funny.

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Speaker 3: I have to say this because people often assume, even

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Speaker 3: though we're from different moms, that were actually from the

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Speaker 3: same mom, because Sean and I are so wired the

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Speaker 3: same in our work ethic, in our OCD, we actually

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Speaker 3: look very similar to the point where people often will

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Speaker 3: actually ask us like, oh, like, you guys must be really.

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Speaker 2: Close in age. Are you guys twins?

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Speaker 3: And it is like a real testament to how well

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Speaker 3: Shawn Amos is aging that people often think that fifteen

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Speaker 3: year age gap doesn't exist at all and we are

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Speaker 3: just twin siblings. I've gotten that more than once from people.

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Speaker 3: So I want to go on the record as saying

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Speaker 3: Sean Amos's skincare routine. But it's such a testament to

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Speaker 3: like some of its nature and some of its nurture.

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Speaker 3: That like, our mothers are very very different people, and

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Speaker 3: our upbringing was very different, even though we had the

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Speaker 3: same father. But something about our personalities are just like

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Speaker 3: in lockstep with each other in a way that kind

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Speaker 3: of drives the rest of the family insane.

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Speaker 1: Hmmm, Like I want to hear more about that, But

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Speaker 1: I also want to hear what kinds of things have

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Speaker 1: really helped you to cultivate this close relationship as adults,

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Speaker 1: because that is a very intentional choice and it sounds

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Speaker 1: like something that was important on both of your parts.

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Speaker 1: What things have helped you to really be into about

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Speaker 1: creating this relationship with one another.

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Speaker 3: Look, it hasn't always been perfect. I think we we

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Speaker 3: Ebb and Flow, I think we were really close during college.

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Speaker 2: Then I moved when I was in college.

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Speaker 3: Then I moved to New York, and we probably distance

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Speaker 3: of physical space, we grew apart a little bit, and

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Speaker 3: when my parents were going through a divorce and Sean

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Speaker 3: was dealing with stuff with his own family and I

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Speaker 3: talked about some podcasts, like I really took a step

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Speaker 3: back from everyone in the family and was just kind

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Speaker 3: of like, I'm going to do my own thing, like

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Speaker 3: you guys all figure out your stuff. And I'm not

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Speaker 3: saying that was the right decision, but it was the

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Speaker 3: decision I made. And then circumstances brought us back together,

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Speaker 3: and Sean and I actually worked together for several years.

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Speaker 3: But then as things continue to like we we have

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Speaker 3: fallen out again and come back together again. And actually,

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Speaker 3: I think the podcast in a lot of ways has

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Speaker 3: actually re cemented things for the two of us, because

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Speaker 3: I think part of and I've never.

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Speaker 2: Said this to Sean, so we'll see if he had

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Speaker 2: agrees with me or not.

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Speaker 3: I think part of what we started to struggle with

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Speaker 3: in the past couple of years was it was just

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Speaker 3: really hard for I think both of us to have

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Speaker 3: an honest conversation with the other one about what we

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Speaker 3: were feeling, and I think that was somewhat true for

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Speaker 3: like a lot of people in my family. It turns out,

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Speaker 3: and for whatever reason, us Amoses are wired that if

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Speaker 3: you put a microphone in front of us, we are

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Speaker 3: very transparent people. And so I think a lot of

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Speaker 3: things and conversations that we as a family should have

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Speaker 3: had over the last several years we had during the

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Speaker 3: making of this podcast. And part of that was also

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Speaker 3: just our dad passing away, right and what that brings

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Speaker 3: out of people. But I do think in the last

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Speaker 3: year Sean and I have become a lot closer because

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Speaker 3: of the process of dealing with our dad's death, but

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Speaker 3: also making this podcast and really having to go through

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Speaker 3: the past and talk about things and talk about things

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Speaker 3: that aren't even part of the podcast but are related

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Speaker 3: to feelings that came up during the recording of the podcast,

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Speaker 3: and it is. It's one of the things that I

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Speaker 3: am most grateful for in actually even making it.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 4: Kept it together over the years was work. We are

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Speaker 4: a family of workaholics, and we are a family who

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Speaker 4: finds it most easy. Were almost comfortable dealing with each

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Speaker 4: other when it's when work is sort of the connective

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Speaker 4: tissue that when that's providing the lubricant, and so a

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Speaker 4: lot of what kept us in touch and a lot

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Speaker 4: of things that we were vibing on and feel like

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Speaker 4: we're moving our relationship forward and bonding us. What was work,

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Speaker 4: Like Sara said, we worked together in the same company

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Speaker 4: for a while, and we had projects and and if

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Speaker 4: there's anything project related that you know, serting you a

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Speaker 4: gut check on still to this day, you know, she

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Speaker 4: calls me out vice versa, and so that's like a

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Speaker 4: real strong muscle for us. I think that the flip

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Speaker 4: side of it, and Sarah related to it, was that

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Speaker 4: I don't think that existed solely to avoid other stuff,

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Speaker 4: but it certainly been made it easy to avoid other stuff.

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Speaker 4: And so there were definitely some personal resentments and misunderstandings

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Speaker 4: and hurt feelings that were building up over the years.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't even to say like on some level we

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Speaker 4: knew what was happening and we made a constant decision

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Speaker 4: not to talk about it. I think that in some

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Speaker 4: respects were so emotionally underdeveloped that we didn't even know,

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Speaker 4: you know, it was happening, we should be speaking about it.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't like we're consciously like, I'm not going to

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Speaker 4: talk to her anymore. It was just something was we

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Speaker 4: couldn't eve identify within ourselves. And and yeah, the death

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Speaker 4: of a parent will give you a lot of gifts

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Speaker 4: as well as you know, do a number on yourhead.

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Speaker 4: And when our father died, and even I was seen

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Speaker 4: before that, I mean he when he when his dementia

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Speaker 4: came on, and it was clear that Sarah and I

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Speaker 4: were going to step up and do our best to

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Speaker 4: manage that to our best of our abilities. That was

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Speaker 4: really the beginning of, oh, we have like a personal

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Speaker 4: relationship renounced in addition to working relationships with each other.

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Speaker 4: And that was the beginning of both having different types

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Speaker 4: of conversations that we didn't have and also working extra

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Speaker 4: hard to avoid conversations at the same time. And so

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Speaker 4: I think I would view that moments like the turning

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Speaker 4: point where Okay, we're talking about stuff other than work now,

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Speaker 4: and our relationship is about more than just our common

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Speaker 4: love and our common approach to our professional lives. We've

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Speaker 4: got this personal thing to deal with and that made

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Speaker 4: it even more that begin that was a bit of

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Speaker 4: a juggling act. I think for us and I don't

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Speaker 4: know if we and it probably wasn't sustainable until his doubt.

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Speaker 4: I think if you were still alive, we might have

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Speaker 4: still been dancing around some stuff we shouldn't have been

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Speaker 4: dancing around. And then he passes away and the ball

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Speaker 4: just shatters to the ground, right, And so you've got

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Speaker 4: a lot of stuff to now you just can't avoid

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Speaker 4: talking about anymore. And her podcast has absolutely been a

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Speaker 4: gift and a major vehicle for a lot of healing

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Speaker 4: crowd not only between us but within the whole family.

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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So, one of

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Speaker 1: the things that families often struggle with is caregiving. Right,

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Speaker 1: So somebody becomes ill in the family and there's this

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Speaker 1: discussion or maybe lack of discussion amongst the siblings about

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Speaker 1: like who is stepping up in like what everybody's responsibility

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Speaker 1: is going to be. And it sounds like you said,

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Speaker 1: Reverend Sean, that you and Sarah kind of say like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is going to be on us. I wonder what

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Speaker 1: was that conversation like with your siblings or was there

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Speaker 1: a conversation around where everybody's responsibility was going to be

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Speaker 1: in terms of caregiving.

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Speaker 4: I think it's Sarah's story to tell more than mine.

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Speaker 4: But I think that we talked about the outset, you know,

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Speaker 4: our typical American family that has four siblings from three marriages,

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Speaker 4: and I think that the child lenges of a family

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Speaker 4: like that, it makes all conversations very easy to avoid,

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Speaker 4: and it makes all conversations pretty tenuous. So there's no

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Speaker 4: family meetings, there's no like sitting around the table together,

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Speaker 4: and yeah, that doesn't exist at all. So I think

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Speaker 4: it's a lot of it is. Part of it's like

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Speaker 4: everyone looking at you can do it, You're gonna do it,

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Speaker 4: You're gonna do it. It's a lot of waiting for

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Speaker 4: someone to step up in some respects. I think a

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Speaker 4: lot of it is. I think I'm gonna set Sarah

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Speaker 4: up now. I think Sarah has had something to prove

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Speaker 4: for a long time, and she talked about in the

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Speaker 4: podcast she had something to prove as being the best kid,

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Speaker 4: and by best, being the kid who's gonna step up

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Speaker 4: for our father despite whatever challenges she have had with him.

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Speaker 4: Who's my brother's knife. All had periods of time where

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Speaker 4: we've not spoken with our father, where the pain or

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Speaker 4: the disruption of relationship has been too great. And Sarah

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Speaker 4: was gonna be the perfect kid, and I think being

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Speaker 4: the perfect kid meant there was no doubt she was

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Speaker 4: she wasn't gonna do anying butt step up and take

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Speaker 4: this role. I think to some degree I joined in

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Speaker 4: her in that because it was the big brother role

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Speaker 4: that I wanted to play. It's like, going back to

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Speaker 4: the beginning, I'm gonna be a bigger brother and I'm

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Speaker 4: not gonna let her go to anything alone that I

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Speaker 4: can help. And she's got husbands, you've got a family

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Speaker 4: of her own, but there's a role of a big brother,

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Speaker 4: and so I viewed I sort of put my feelings

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Speaker 4: aside to make sure that she wasn't doing this alone.

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Speaker 4: But I think a lot of it was fueled by

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Speaker 4: her wanting to play this part that she's been wanting

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Speaker 4: to play for a long time. Sarah, what do you think?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, look, look, I think this is one of

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Speaker 3: the main reasons I wanted to make the podcast, and

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Speaker 3: what I hope is one of the things that people

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Speaker 3: find the most useful about it. And actually I've already

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Speaker 3: heard from people listening to just the first couple episodes,

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Speaker 3: which doesn't even get like this part of the family

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Speaker 3: drama really comes towards the end of the podcast in

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Speaker 3: episodes five and six, but I think Sean is.

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Speaker 2: Spot on right.

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Speaker 3: I'd always kind of played the role of dutiful daughter,

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Speaker 3: and in my mind, being a good caregiver, being a

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Speaker 3: good daughter, being a good family member meant that you

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Speaker 3: told a person you love them, that you always took

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Speaker 3: their calls, that you tried to provide for them financially right,

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Speaker 3: that you made the choices that made sure they were okay.

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Speaker 3: And I think in the process of making this podcast,

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Speaker 3: I've learned two very important things.

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Speaker 2: One is that yes, all of those.

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Speaker 3: Things are important, but if there isn't real intention and meaning,

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Speaker 3: an emotional connection behind it, then it is also to

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Speaker 3: some degree performative. And when your parent passes away, you

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Speaker 3: can feel that you've done all the right things, but

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Speaker 3: if you don't have the conversations, if you don't really

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Speaker 3: work on your relationship with them, then you might realize

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Speaker 3: that you gave a form of caregiving, but you did

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Speaker 3: not perhaps give exactly the form of caregiving for what

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Speaker 3: you intended or want once they have passed. I think

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Speaker 3: the second thing that I learned in making this podcast

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Speaker 3: and in just in the last several years of our

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Speaker 3: lives in dealing with what we dealt with my dad

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Speaker 3: and our family is that there is we are so

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Speaker 3: good at the early stages of life. There are a

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Speaker 3: million manuals on how to raise a baby. You can

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Speaker 3: find thirty seven different technique books alone on sleep training,

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Speaker 3: but you can barely find five well recommended books on

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Speaker 3: how to take care of an elderly patient, an elderly

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Speaker 3: parent with dementia.

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Speaker 2: And I think we.

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Speaker 3: As a society focused so much on the early years

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Speaker 3: of life that we have completely forgotten about the later years.

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Speaker 3: And it is hard to take care of an aging parent,

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Speaker 3: And it is hard to suddenly find yourself in the

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Speaker 3: role of parenting your own parent, and it is hard

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Speaker 3: for your parent to suddenly be parented by their children.

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Speaker 3: That is a hit to an ego and a self that,

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Speaker 3: like I now in putting myself in my dad's shoes,

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Speaker 3: like understand is difficult and is not something that everyone

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Speaker 3: is going to accept with grace. And how everyone deals

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Speaker 3: with being a caregiver is different. And how two of

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Speaker 3: our brothers needed to deal with it, both emotionally and financially,

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Speaker 3: was very different than what Sean and I could give,

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Speaker 3: and we all just accepted that from each other. But

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Speaker 3: I do think people just aren't prepared for parents getting old,

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Speaker 3: and they're not prepared for how much work it's going

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Speaker 3: to be, both financially, both just labor wise, and then

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Speaker 3: also emotionally. And I think this podcast for me has

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Speaker 3: allowed me to let go, at least part, not entirely yet,

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Speaker 3: of some of the guilt I realized I was holding

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Speaker 3: when our dad died, that I felt about some of

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Speaker 3: the choices I made along the way that were choices

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Speaker 3: that I at the time thought I was making with

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Speaker 3: the best of intentions, but in retrospect realized I was making,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 2: For not always the right reason. And so it is.

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Speaker 3: It has been a process working through what was the

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Speaker 3: process of caregiving.

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Speaker 5: And the we're.

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Speaker 4: Performative is so perfect, right, like what you do as

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Speaker 4: a performative act versus giving has so many different layers

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Speaker 4: to it, right, And then they're thinking that she was

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Speaker 4: talking as you were talking to I was thinking about

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Speaker 4: as just like any unresolved bag as you've got with

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Speaker 4: your parent will come back to bite you in the

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Speaker 4: ass when they're towards end their lives. If you've got

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Speaker 4: unchecked things you're pissed off about or heard about, or

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Speaker 4: abandonment issue, whatever it is, it all comes right to

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Speaker 4: the surface and it starts to inform your caregiving on

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Speaker 4: some wellvel, whether you know it or not. And so

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Speaker 4: when people talk about, you know, the care that caregivers need,

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Speaker 4: and a lot of that emphasis is on making sure

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Speaker 4: that they're reading properly themselves, are getting proper rest and

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Speaker 4: getting a break in through the physical grueling nature of it.

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Speaker 4: It's the emotional piece too. It's like, you know, you're

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Speaker 4: sitting there next to an eighty something little parent and

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Speaker 4: as you're sitting next to him, you know you're a

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Speaker 4: five year old kids sitting next to him. That's deep.

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Speaker 4: And so it is the emotional and the psychological support

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Speaker 4: too that's needed along the way because I think there

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Speaker 4: were certainly times I think when we were absolutely doing

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Speaker 4: our best, but we're probably at times doing our best

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Speaker 4: is as kids, you know, versus adults, because we were

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Speaker 4: thrown back and to an over time and we hadn't

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Speaker 4: really dealt with.

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Speaker 1: You both have a referenced the issues that you feel

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Speaker 1: like really came to a head after your father is

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Speaker 1: passing that you Sarah talked about feeling like has helped

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Speaker 1: you to become closer. Is there any conversation or maybe

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Speaker 1: difficult conversation that you all had that you feel like

439
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: really led to like, Oh, this unlocked a new level

440
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: to our relationship that you'd feel comfortable sharing.

441
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 3: I mean, actually, and look, you'll hear this conversation play

442
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 3: out in the last episode of the podcast, which really

443
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 3: deals with the end of our dad's life. I think

444
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 3: it was really helpful for me to talk to my

445
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 3: brothers about how I was frustrated when our dad was

446
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 3: in a coma and was in the ICU and I

447
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 3: was there by myself, And it wasn't me saying I'm

448
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 3: mad at you and I want you to apologize, but

449
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 3: it was me feeling better just being able to voice

450
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 3: that by being there and being by myself and understanding

451
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 3: why they.

452
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 2: Weren't there for a variety of reasons.

453
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 3: It did still take me back to being that little

454
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 3: girl who was growing up in Hawaii by herself and

455
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 3: like felt like she've had family but didn't. And it

456
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 3: wasn't again, it wasn't about needing anyone to say anything

457
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,880
Speaker 3: or apologize or change anything. But it was just really

458
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 3: nice to be able to voice that, have them hear it,

459
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 3: and like have that just be a real conversation that

460
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 3: we could have and sit in and like experience together.

461
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 3: I think that was really key to bringing us all closer.

462
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 4: I think we're still learning, and even still, I think

463
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 4: we're just now learning how to be a family. I

464
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 4: think we have very This is very new for all

465
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 4: of us because we all grew up in three because

466
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 4: our older brothers are part of the same not say

467
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 4: biological mother. We four kids grew up in three separate homes.

468
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 4: Is only children, And like Sarah said perfectly the top

469
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 4: of this thing, you know, we're all guest stars and

470
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 4: each other's lives and this idea of what family means

471
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 4: is a new concept. And we've all made our attempts

472
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 4: to start our own families, to have our do overs

473
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 4: bring into our lives as adults we didn't have as children,

474
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 4: to varying degrees of success. But as far as each other,

475
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 4: this blood family, it's new and so we're still figuring

476
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 4: it out. And I think there's a lot of only

477
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 4: children act in a certain way right and on doing

478
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 4: those kinds of habits. Sincero's podcasts like we had a

479
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 4: father who buys own admission, put himself first, and put

480
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 4: his career first, and put his desires first, as many

481
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 4: successful people do, of all career types and all race,

482
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 4: creed and nationalities. But you learn from that, right you

483
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 4: learn how to throw in the towel and things get rough,

484
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,959
Speaker 4: and you learn how to have a be okay if

485
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 4: you're going to put your thing about someone else's and

486
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 4: not to dip out when things get a little comfortable.

487
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 4: And you know, I think we're all learning how to

488
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 4: trust that we will all be there for each other

489
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 4: the funeral. We're always my tough guts and we're also

490
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 4: tough the conversation gets and that we can have tough

491
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 4: conversations and still be okay. That's near for us.

492
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 1: You know, Rover Sean, you described kind of being a

493
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: workaholic as a family trait, right, like that that is

494
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: something that is really a value that has become a

495
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 1: part of your family. But I also, I'm not always valuable,

496
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 1: but not always valuable, but definitely there. But I also

497
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: hear you saying that you know that Dad kind of

498
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: shared like, hey, this kind of was my priority. I

499
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: wonder what hearing him talk about that has maybe if anything.

500
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: Has it shifted your relationship to work for both of

501
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: you given that you know you kind of see maybe

502
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: some of them not so great side of kind of

503
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: work always being the priority.

504
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 4: There's a great moment in her podcast when her husband

505
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 4: Greg talks about Sarah always being on her phone, you know,

506
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 4: at events and just and not not being present and

507
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 4: Sarah and he is saying it to Sarah. Sarah's like

508
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 4: realizing this in real time, Like I did never even

509
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 4: dawn on her until this moment, at the exact same

510
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 4: moment mine wasn't recorded for a podcast. It's a safe space, man, Yeah,

511
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 4: it's a safe space. It's a space where we can

512
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 4: control things, a space where we feel like we're being

513
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 4: of service. And it's one of the great It's one

514
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 4: of those sort of most insidious isms, right because if

515
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 4: you're an alcohol if you have alcoholism or you know,

516
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 4: drug addiction, it's obvious how it's gonna screw things up.

517
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 4: The evidence is all over the place. But if you're

518
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 4: a workaholic, he provide for your family, you know this out,

519
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 4: but pays for the vacations and the rent and the

520
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 4: blah blah blah. Man. So it's a hard one. To

521
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 4: give grief about on some level, right, But it's a

522
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 4: great way to avoid stuff. Yeah, it's a great way

523
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 4: to avoid the hard stuff. So I am still a

524
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 4: recovering workaholics. Yeah, yeah, what do you think my workaholics sister?

525
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 3: Look, our dad instilled in us and talk to us

526
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 3: about the importance of working hard and doing your best.

527
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 3: But so much of what we learned from him in

528
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 3: terms of a workaholic nature was never a conversation we

529
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 3: had with him. It is what we saw, right. He

530
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 3: traveled seventy five percent of the year when I was

531
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 3: a kid in Hawaii. Most of my memories of him

532
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 3: were picking him up from the airport or dropping him off.

533
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 2: At the airport.

534
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 3: So it starts less with even the conversations you have

535
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 3: and more with the actions you show. And your kids

536
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 3: pick that up from day one and Seanas spot on

537
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 3: and look, it is one of the It is one

538
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 3: of the things I am most grateful for in the podcast,

539
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 3: But certainly not one of the things I set out

540
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 3: to discover when I started is how much I was

541
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 3: turning into my father without me even realizing it, right,

542
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 3: And it took my lovely, patient, wonderful husband and others

543
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 3: to start to describe me back to myself and realize,

544
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 3: oh wow, there's a lot of Wally in here inadvertently.

545
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 3: But it is in every everyday conversations.

546
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: Sean is spot on.

547
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 3: It is an everyday conversation of me checking myself.

548
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 4: And you want the hit man, right. I mean, it's

549
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 4: like it's like a societal thing, right, We're all just

550
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 4: wired for more and more and more and more and more.

551
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 4: And you know, Sara has made this podcast and it's

552
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 4: a beautiful piece of work, and of course she's going

553
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 4: to do ever think she can do to promote it,

554
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 4: and she should and so you know, and then you

555
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 4: get trained to think like every offer you gets, the

556
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 4: last offer then to come around and you jump at everything,

557
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 4: and we're just conditioned to say yes to everything. But yeah,

558
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 4: I think it's a it's a daily negotiation.

559
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: It is.

560
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 4: It is a daily negotiation.

561
00:30:47,160 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So, Sarah, you've

562
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: kind of talked about there being a family culture of

563
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: not talking about things you know publicly, yet you have, now,

564
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: it seems, convince your brothers to do this very public podcast.

565
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: Wasn't that a hard sale? And talk about like how

566
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: the podcast and the making of the podcast has impacted

567
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: your relationship with your siblings.

568
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 3: It was not a hard sell at all, and I'm

569
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 3: very grateful and will always appreciate that fact. I called

570
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 3: each of my brothers individually and asked them if they

571
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 3: were cool with me doing this, and I called my

572
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 3: mom to and I said, if everyone isn't okay with this,

573
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 3: I won't do it. And everyone was entirely supportive from

574
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 3: the first moment. And Sean was so supportive that he

575
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 3: also provided his deep catalog of music, which is actually

576
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 3: what the entire podcast is scored to, and the theme

577
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 3: song is one of my favorite songs by Sean. So

578
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 3: Sean went above and beyond in helping. But no, I

579
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 3: think this this podcast only worked if everyone in the

580
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 3: family was open to it and willing to be a

581
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 3: part of it, because at the end of the day,

582
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 3: this was as much about kind of helping cement the

583
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 3: right type of legacy for not just our dad but

584
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 3: our family as it was about me just working through stuff.

585
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 3: And I can't work through stuff if no one in

586
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 3: the family wants to work through it with me, then

587
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 3: it's just me talking into a void. And God bless

588
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 3: no one needs that, so everyone was spot on from

589
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 3: day one, and then it was really just about doing

590
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 3: the work right and digging in and having the conversations.

591
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 3: And again that was really my family stepping up and

592
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 3: not just having the to say what we were talking about.

593
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 3: The performative conversation. Right, there's a version of these interviews

594
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 3: that could have been really just surface and really just like,

595
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 3: let's talk about the things that are already out there,

596
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 3: let's talk about the police stuff. But instead, like all

597
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 3: of my family really went to places that were uncomfortable

598
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 3: and talked about things that have hurt and chaos and

599
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 3: trauma associated with them and did so in beautiful ways.

600
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 3: And that is a huge gift that they all graciously

601
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 3: gave to me.

602
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 4: There's such a media landscape now that rewards and presumes

603
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 4: that these types of you know, behind the scenes, you know,

604
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 4: revelations will all be exploitative or it's about selling scores

605
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 4: or retribution or this kind of thing, or that the

606
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 4: motives are about money or about gore settling. And it's

607
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 4: such a tribute to our father that, like, none of

608
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 4: his sins are so great that we don't all want

609
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 4: to be standing together and saying what an amazing duty

610
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 4: was and that he had his challenges like we all do.

611
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 4: Some of them are so easy to understand if you

612
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 4: know anything about Black America and if you know anything

613
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,280
Speaker 4: about men in Black America. Great phrase I learned about.

614
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 4: We are guilty, but not to blame, and he's guilty

615
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 4: of much, but if you know anything about his life

616
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 4: and where he came from, he is so not to blame.

617
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 4: And I think the greatest testament to him is that

618
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 4: these four kids from three marriages, you know, consider themselves

619
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 4: family and wanted to come together and tell a story

620
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 4: about their father that would heal themselves and hopefully help

621
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 4: others heal. And it's just to me Sarah has put

622
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 4: together like the greatest tribute possible dem thanks Sean.

623
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,720
Speaker 3: It's also funny. I want to say, we're a very

624
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 3: funny family, and so I think we've talked a lot

625
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 3: about the emotions and the struggles and all of that

626
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 3: is very real, but we are also a hilarious bunch

627
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 3: of people, and so we honor our dad, who was

628
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 3: also very funny when he wanted to be in this podcast.

629
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 3: It is a mix of tears and laughter in a

630
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,240
Speaker 3: way that like is what I love about the Amos family.

631
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 3: We can all cry one moment and then bust out

632
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 3: laughing the next, and that is what I think a

633
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 3: great family is.

634
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really it's about resilience. Yeah, I mean he

635
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 4: was a resilient dude, for sure. I think Black Americans

636
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 4: are some of the most resilient people on Earth, and

637
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 4: I think that we are profoundly resilient family, and I

638
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 4: think hopefully that does all of service to people.

639
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 1: So, Sarah, I read a piece from you, and you

640
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: both have already talked about how therapeutic it was to

641
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: complete the podcast, which you talked about like, oh, these

642
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 1: are probably also things I should be talking to my

643
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: therapist about. But I'm curious about the role that therapy

644
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 1: has played in both of your, maybe individual lives, but

645
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: maybe even in your relationship as siblings.

646
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 4: Yes, Sarah, talking about the role therapies play in your.

647
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 3: Life, I can now very firmly say, I am finally

648
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 3: going to therapy.

649
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 4: Wow, breaking news, breaking news on the Doctor Joy podcasts.

650
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 4: Finally finally, who's going to therapy?

651
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 2: I'm dabbling. I'm dabbling.

652
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 3: Look in the first episode of the podcast, very much

653
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 3: ends with me asking my husband, do you think I

654
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,959
Speaker 3: should go to therapy, and him trying politely to be like, yes,

655
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,280
Speaker 3: and God please, So now I'm going to a therapist.

656
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 4: Have you actually made an appointment with a therapist.

657
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 3: I've had several appointments already. I've had three appointments already.

658
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 3: I have my next appointment on Friday, and I don't know.

659
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 2: Man, I'm at the beginning of this journey.

660
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 3: So we'll see, We'll see how it goes and how

661
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 3: I feel it's going to help me. But I'm very

662
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 3: proud of myself that, like I've got into this point

663
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 3: in the journey also, and this is like a testament

664
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 3: to how much more developed my nine year old daughter

665
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 3: is than I am.

666
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 2: I told her, I was like.

667
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 3: I've made an appointment to go see a therapist, and

668
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 3: she goes, whoo, good for you.

669
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 2: I've already been seeing one.

670
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 3: Like she was so deeply unimpressed with making an appointment.

671
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 3: She was like, Okay, good for you, but yeah, I

672
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 3: am happy on doing it. I think it's going to

673
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,240
Speaker 3: be great for me. I should have done it sooner.

674
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 3: I fully fully admit it. And people should not be

675
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 3: afraid of therapy, or more importantly, people should make time

676
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:47,240
Speaker 3: for therapy.

677
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:47,919
Speaker 2: That was my thing.

678
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 3: I was never afraid of it. It was just my

679
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 3: workaholic nature. No, I really do think with my workaholic

680
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 3: nature was like, I know what's wrong with me. I

681
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 3: don't need someone to fix it. I am fully functional

682
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 3: without fixing it. This is too low of a priority.

683
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:11,439
Speaker 3: And I recognize, I now recognize that like that may

684
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 3: not be healthy.

685
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: That's called what's your relationship with therapy?

686
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 4: Long and hard, long, hard, arduous, And I'll be back tomorrow.

687
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:25,439
Speaker 1: We love a standing up plane.

688
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 4: And you've got a father like mine and uh a

689
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 4: mother like mine. Therapy is the first, second, and last destination.

690
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 4: So yes, lots of therapy that is just been in

691
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 4: essential blue dolment together over the years, for sure.

692
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: So I'm aware as you both were talking that you know,

693
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: of course sibling relationships is a special kind of relationship,

694
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 1: but I think that cousins are also a very special relationship.

695
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: So I love to hear, maybe how are you being

696
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: intentional about like cultivating the cousin relationship for your keys

697
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:01,919
Speaker 1: cousins through God?

698
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 2: So our kids are very very close.

699
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 3: So as Shawn alluded, when I started college, he had

700
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 3: just had his first kid and his daughter is now

701
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 3: in her twenties and lives in New York. And I mean,

702
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 3: is so close to my daughter that like their borderline siblings.

703
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 2: Depending on the day.

704
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's beeutiful.

705
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 3: And I think I was a very intentional and to

706
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,240
Speaker 3: all three of his kids and really made a point

707
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:35,919
Speaker 3: even when I.

708
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 2: Moved to New York to be present.

709
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 3: And my husband and I've been together for twenty years,

710
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,240
Speaker 3: so he's been a very intentional uncle since day one.

711
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 3: And so I do think for Sean and I we've

712
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 3: really made sure that our kids have a deep cousin relationship.

713
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 3: And I actually think in recent years we've been trying

714
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:00,720
Speaker 3: to be better with our oldest brother Michael and his kids.

715
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 3: I think that cousin relationship there actually probably drifted more

716
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 3: than it should have, even with us just as aunts

717
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 3: and uncles. And you know, we were on a chain

718
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 3: actually with one of Michael's kids last week making dinner

719
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 3: plans coming up. And I do think again, it's this

720
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 3: great irony, right, Sometimes it takes someone passing to bring

721
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 3: the rest of a family together. But when our dad passed,

722
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,839
Speaker 3: we had a memorial in New York and a lot

723
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 3: of the family, some of whom we hadn't seen in

724
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:40,320
Speaker 3: fifteen twenty years. We all came together for it, and

725
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 3: I think we all are trying to be much more

726
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 3: intentional about being in each other's lives in a way

727
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 3: that to be blunt, we just met we never have

728
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 3: in the past.

729
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 4: There's a wonderful moment when Sarah was recording the podcast

730
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 4: and she calls me up from a subway platform and says,

731
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 4: we're from Gambia. We're from Gambia. I'm like, what say,

732
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 4: We're from Gandia.

733
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 5: We talked about dad'side of the family from Gambia and

734
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 5: she found out this information doing an interview with one

735
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 5: of our cousins for the podcast, who had been sitting

736
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 5: on a ton of family history for ages and none

737
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 5: of us knew because we just haven't talked to one

738
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 5: another ever.

739
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 4: It's unlocking literally our family history. This we need relationship

740
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 4: and to find her a point on the on the

741
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 4: memorial service, we we we made a point. We asked

742
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 4: all of our kids to so Michael or oldest brother's children,

743
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 4: my children, Sarah's daughter to speak at the top of

744
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 4: the memorial service and to welcome everyone. And it was

745
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 4: the first time that they had all stood together. It

746
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 4: was for some some of them they ever met. And

747
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 4: that was a real, all powerful binding agent, and it

748
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 4: was purposeful. And you know, we've very much have wanted to,

749
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,720
Speaker 4: you know, set this new trajectory for our family where

750
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 4: there's pride in the family name, there's pride in the

751
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 4: family history, there's awareness of the family they started to

752
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 4: begin with us. And that this goes back to I

753
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 4: said earlier about you know, learning how to be a family, right,

754
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 4: because I think we've all been raised to believe that

755
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 4: we're all lone wolves, right, We're inted alone and we

756
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 4: got to you know, fight for what's ours and we

757
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 4: all come from these broken homes and you know, and

758
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 4: YadA YadA, and really it's like, can we retrain ourselves

759
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 4: to believe that we are more powerful together? You know

760
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 4: that this this this series of broken families and has

761
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 4: and steps and sort of dead end family clues. Can

762
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 4: we pull all those broken pieces together and create this

763
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 4: one strong family that that can provide for each other

764
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 4: emotionally and in all these different ways. And I think

765
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 4: that's a new experiment for us, but it seems to

766
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 4: be it seems to be going well so far. And

767
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 4: now that serves in therapy God knows what's Sky's the limit.

768
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,439
Speaker 2: Sky's the limit. It's gonna be great.

769
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 1: Well, it has been such a treat to learn more

770
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: about both of you and your family. I know that

771
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 1: people will enjoy checking out the podcast and hearing even

772
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: more Sarah. Please tell us where we can stay connected

773
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,320
Speaker 1: with you and where can we check out the podcast.

774
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 3: You can check out the podcast anywhere that you get podcasts, Apple, Spotify, Audible,

775
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 3: Tough Cookie, The Wally Famous, Same As Story. New episodes

776
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 3: out every Wednesday, six episodes in total. It is a

777
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 3: great time. And you can find me, I mean hosting

778
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 3: that podcast. I don't have a massive social presence, so

779
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 3: you can find me there or maybe on Twitter, but

780
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 3: I don't really tweet, so I don't know. Just listen

781
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 3: to the podcast that find Me in the Ether.

782
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 4: Got it?

783
00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 1: And Reverend Joe and way. Can we check out your

784
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: music and any other projects that you have going on?

785
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:03,479
Speaker 4: And you can find my music and you are listening

786
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 4: to music Apple, Spotify, ban Care Title or wherever you

787
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 4: listen to music, while I find some physical copies and

788
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 4: record stores here and there. You can find me at

789
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 4: sean ms dot com, shj w n AMLS dot com, perfect.

790
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: We'll be sure to include all of that in the

791
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 1: show notes. Thank you both for spending some time with

792
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 1: me today. I appreciate it so great.

793
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 4: Thanks a lot, Thank you.

794
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: This has been wonderful.

795
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that Sarah and Reverend Sean were able

796
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 1: to join us for this conversation. I'm very happy that

797
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: we have concluded our Siblings sit down series where we

798
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: are celebrating connection, memory, and the beautiful bombs that shape

799
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 1: who we are. To learn more about them and their work,

800
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for

801
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot com slash session for thirty seven, and don't

802
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: forget to text this episode to two of your girls

803
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 1: right now and tell them to check it out. I

804
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 1: know that you could leave us a voicemail with your

805
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 1: questions or suggestions for the podcast. If you had topics

806
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 1: you'd like us to discuss, drop us a message at

807
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 1: Memo dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls and let

808
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 1: us know what's on your mind. We just might feature

809
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist

810
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 1: in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for

811
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't forget to follow us

812
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: over on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls, and come

813
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: on over and join us in our Patreon channel at

814
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com for exclusive updates,

815
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 1: behind the scenes content and more. This episode was produced

816
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 1: by Eleas Ellis Indichubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was done

817
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me

818
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,359
Speaker 1: again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation

819
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 1: with you all real soon. Take good care,