Speaker 1: Wellcome back to the Fire Drill. Uh. Today's episode was
Speaker 1: another one of my favorites. Before we get into why
Speaker 1: I think that, let's talk about our sponsors. First of all,
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Speaker 1: check both of them out. They are the reason that
Speaker 1: we are able to do this great stuff. So on
Speaker 1: this week's episode of The Fire Drill, we somehow have
Speaker 1: talked about all of the following things. Corey Paven and
Speaker 1: his v as Cleveland Irons purple, ugly, hideous, it looks
Speaker 1: like levels. Uh. Michael has a great story about Allen
Speaker 1: has a great story about being on the range with him. Uh.
Speaker 1: We talked about Greg Dorman. We talked about the comparison
Speaker 1: to Tiger Woods. Uh. We talked about that they didn't
Speaker 1: get along very well, the pit ranking itself and how
Speaker 1: ridiculous it all is, Uh, cam Smith winning again in
Speaker 1: his place, and how the o w g R. He's
Speaker 1: probably going to have to change because cam Smith keeps
Speaker 1: winning everywhere and uh, if he slips down, it'll kind
Speaker 1: of make a mockery of the o w g R.
Speaker 1: We talked about Shano hair, which I love, and we
Speaker 1: guessed his age and how many how much career earnings
Speaker 1: he has? You don't probably know. Both they're both ridiculous, Uh,
Speaker 1: I mean it was great, Thanks for listening, Thanks for being.
Speaker 1: I hope everybody's holiday weekend. We also talked about how
Speaker 1: turkey sucks and turkey sucks. Uh, here's the three of
Speaker 1: us talking golf. I got nothing I'm thinking about. Can't
Speaker 1: get them not to think, well, I'm thinking about Hello boy,
Speaker 1: it's happy Thanksgiving? What's up man? How was everybody good? Good? Michael?
Speaker 1: How are you a little salmon out at this point?
Speaker 1: You know how it is in the barmburger house? Yeah? Respect,
Speaker 1: I mean, we don't have to turn this into a
Speaker 1: this whole podcast into a repudiation of traditional Thanksgiving foods.
Speaker 1: But does anyone really love turkey? I mean it's just
Speaker 1: a delivery system for other things. I mean, yeah, and
Speaker 1: tell me the last time anyone you know or yourself
Speaker 1: has ordered turkey at a restaurant. All of us eat
Speaker 1: out a hundred times of years, and we never go
Speaker 1: you know, what do you? Is turkey on special today?
Speaker 1: Like no one has ever said that. Didn't say it's
Speaker 1: very true, but it is. It is a delightful holiday.
Speaker 1: And uh, but the fire drill never sleeps. We're here
Speaker 1: to talk about what's happening in a golf such as
Speaker 1: it is. Still play the Skins Game, Allen. You know,
Speaker 1: I would say one of the top five stories I
Speaker 1: ever wrote in my entire life was the Skins Game.
Speaker 1: In ninety five, I was I've done my internship at
Speaker 1: s I and then I was I was back at
Speaker 1: U c L as an undergraduate but still writing for
Speaker 1: the magazine, and our beloved editor James P. Harry it's like,
Speaker 1: I hate the Skins Game, Go go rip the Skins Game.
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, and uh it was so over
Speaker 1: the top and like I read it now and I blush,
Speaker 1: But of course it was grounded in truth. The whole
Speaker 1: thing was a total turkey. But I mean, really it
Speaker 1: was like, listen to this lineup, Tom Watson, great golfer,
Speaker 1: but low one Pizzas, Corey paven Um, Peter j Peter Jacobson,
Speaker 1: who I like Jake, but you know he was a
Speaker 1: little past the sell by date. And I can't remember
Speaker 1: who the fourth one was, but it was that was
Speaker 1: part of the thing. I mean, started out with Nicholas
Speaker 1: and Paul or in Trevino and now you got Corey
Speaker 1: paven I mean it was anyway, So I have I
Speaker 1: have fond memories of the Skins game because everyone was
Speaker 1: so mad about that story. Like Jacobson rode my ask
Speaker 1: for years after that because I remember saying like his
Speaker 1: pattern was as canned as a as a talk show monologue.
Speaker 1: And every time you see he's like, oh I'm a
Speaker 1: talk show host. Is that what you think about me?
Speaker 1: Like for years, for years, See, this is the fire drill.
Speaker 1: This is what the fire drill is all about. Stories
Speaker 1: like Peter Jacobson. Well you'll appreciate this right, quick quick
Speaker 1: note on Corey pavin As you know, as you both know,
Speaker 1: he used the bulls eye putter for years and and
Speaker 1: part of my uh working through the yips, I went
Speaker 1: to a bulls eye because you could go left, you
Speaker 1: and righty, So I saw him one year and I said, Cray,
Speaker 1: I'm just curious those bulls eye putters do they have
Speaker 1: loft on both sides of the face, because as we
Speaker 1: all know, putters are not vertical. They have they have
Speaker 1: a slight degrader of love to him, and uh uh
Speaker 1: and and and Corey Paven says, uh, let me guess
Speaker 1: you're going on the long ones and Lefty on the
Speaker 1: short ones. I'm like, how could you possibly know? He said,
Speaker 1: We've seen everything. That's awesome. Yeah, Well, Corey Paven one
Speaker 1: of the few people on the plant who has had
Speaker 1: both of bar Mitzvah and a baptism. So shout out,
Speaker 1: shout out, shout out to Corey. It's the holiday season.
Speaker 1: He's very inclusive. Did he why is that? Did he
Speaker 1: marry into his wife is Jewish? No, he was Jewie.
Speaker 1: He grew up Jewish and then and then he went
Speaker 1: he gave his life to Christ and so but he
Speaker 1: saved a little bit for golf. But quick, quick note
Speaker 1: on that one. When you're at at Hilton Head the
Speaker 1: week after the Master's Easter Sunday and pass Over Sunday
Speaker 1: fell on the same Sunday. And I said to Corey,
Speaker 1: are you accepting duel holiday? Uh? You know, greetings? He
Speaker 1: said absolutely. He was very good natured about it. Actually.
Speaker 1: So I did a big feature story on Corey Paven
Speaker 1: again in that that little sort of that we in
Speaker 1: between when I finished mentorship and before I started full
Speaker 1: time at s I, and it was it was this.
Speaker 1: It was the winter of ninety four and it was
Speaker 1: before he won at Shinnecock And that was like the
Speaker 1: whole thing of the story. Best player without a major
Speaker 1: can you can Corey do it? The gritty gutty brew
Speaker 1: And you know, we shared U c l A roots.
Speaker 1: He didn't have a suite, you said, U c l
Speaker 1: A license room on his black portion, which I appreciated
Speaker 1: as a fellow brewin. And and so we went out fishing,
Speaker 1: like because you know, when you do these future stories,
Speaker 1: you gotta do something. And I'm not much a fisherman.
Speaker 1: I don't think Corey is either. So he's he's casting
Speaker 1: his line and this is a lake and wherever he
Speaker 1: lived in Orlando, and this fucking alligator like snapped it
Speaker 1: whatever the lure was, and he hooked a little like
Speaker 1: baby alligator and he's like, oh my god, this is terrible.
Speaker 1: You can't catch alligator. This is like, this is a
Speaker 1: violation of state law. So like, well, what are we
Speaker 1: supposed to do? Like so he's like trying to gently
Speaker 1: reel the gator in, Like I was thinking, Okay, if
Speaker 1: he gets this thing on the boat, he's got million
Speaker 1: dollar hands. He's not the one who's gonna pull the
Speaker 1: lure out of this. The skaters Allen Simney gets major
Speaker 1: champions fingers bitten off while fishing for story. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: start calling me seven finger Joe or whatever. But does
Speaker 1: anyone associated with irons quite like Corey Paven and those
Speaker 1: horrendous v A s irons that he used. I mean,
Speaker 1: no one looks like random golfers. I mean, and I
Speaker 1: know Corey is not totally random, but I'm saying, like,
Speaker 1: outside of the greats, no one is associated with a
Speaker 1: set of irons more than Corey Paven and those Cleveland irons. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe Calcavecchio with the ping Eye two. But um yeah,
Speaker 1: So he was playing them at that moment in time,
Speaker 1: in like winter of and so we went to the
Speaker 1: range and he's hitting balls with them and then shot
Speaker 1: tied to the end of a shaft. I know, I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm just I'm just beating around the bus,
Speaker 1: Like Corey, you know, how do you think these irons
Speaker 1: have changed your game? And Corey, do you have any
Speaker 1: you know, any second thoughts about and uh, Corey, but
Speaker 1: you know, is there anything that the technology doesn't help
Speaker 1: you work the ball? Like he's like he's like, he's like,
Speaker 1: just go ahead and ask it. Just ask it. I said, Okay,
Speaker 1: were those irons a mistake or what? And like were
Speaker 1: those things? Well, Alan, did you write about him before
Speaker 1: or after the US Open win? Before? So I think
Speaker 1: the story came out in maybe February of ninety five
Speaker 1: and he won that US Open. Later, what did he
Speaker 1: what do you win with that U s Open with? Well,
Speaker 1: that's a good question. I mean I remember it's still
Speaker 1: be being they'd still be being made if they was
Speaker 1: with those Yeah, I think he must have switched him out,
Speaker 1: but he still had him. When I was hanging out
Speaker 1: with him in Orlando around the Underweighted club that V
Speaker 1: A S A S. And it was like it had
Speaker 1: a little it was like the shaft wasn't at the
Speaker 1: end of the club head it was there were shovels
Speaker 1: basically shovels and they had purple backs. It was insane.
Speaker 1: They were sick. I mean, don't don't make a Patrick
Speaker 1: Read joke, because he still could be trigger happy. First
Speaker 1: of more, I think we can all agree that when
Speaker 1: in a bunker to a robriate to shovel out the
Speaker 1: sand behind your ball, there's the We would never just
Speaker 1: spares Patrick Read, especially at an exhibition to match, an
Speaker 1: exhibition tournament like the year World Challenge that giving out
Speaker 1: Cocus World ranking points. And did Corey Paven did he
Speaker 1: captain that Ryder Cup team that when we played that
Speaker 1: year we played that really good golf course in Wales.
Speaker 1: Was that Royal fourth call which you never remember fourth
Speaker 1: called let me tell you something that was by far
Speaker 1: the most memorable part of that week, such an unmemorable rug. Well,
Speaker 1: I didn't anticipate this fire drill would devolve into Corey
Speaker 1: Paven content, but um, yes, that was That was an
Speaker 1: ethic ryder Cup because remember the captain as his wife
Speaker 1: was wrapped naked, wrapped in a flag on the carver.
Speaker 1: This magazine in the British pressman crazy with that. And
Speaker 1: then yeah, and then there was this cock up with
Speaker 1: the rain gear and the leaky and the freaking the
Speaker 1: You know it flooded out the golf course. You're in Wales,
Speaker 1: you can anticipate it's going to raid. Why did they
Speaker 1: pick a golf course at the bottom of a valley?
Speaker 1: And it was just like an absolute cloud show from
Speaker 1: start to finish. And of course when you had one
Speaker 1: of the best golf courses in the world down the street. Yeah,
Speaker 1: way better than the host venue. Yes, and go ahead
Speaker 1: and red uh. Jake might have to cut this out,
Speaker 1: but well we'll deem it. Marty Carr from the u
Speaker 1: T I told me that was joking and it has
Speaker 1: to do with whales. H A guy walks into a
Speaker 1: bar in the UK. Oh, Jake's coming in. That's never
Speaker 1: a good sign. So I'm not sure if this being
Speaker 1: the podcast or not. But while we were um, while
Speaker 1: we were talking, Michael was doing an internet search. We
Speaker 1: could we could hear it in the background and so
Speaker 1: our producer and Jake Muldowney scolded him. It reminds me
Speaker 1: I just started watching this show last night. Have you
Speaker 1: heard of Fleischman is in trouble? No? I think the
Speaker 1: protagonist might be Jewish. Yeah, just to keep just to
Speaker 1: keep the theme going here, it's the Holidays. It's the
Speaker 1: Holidays and um, oh my god, it is a plus.
Speaker 1: It's based in a book that I loved, and it
Speaker 1: is so funny. It's basically like it's on Hulu. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's the kid who was in Social Network, which sidebar.
Speaker 1: I think we're the best movies a century and Claire
Speaker 1: Dayes is in it, and Michael, you'll appreciate this. Uh.
Speaker 1: It's like basically a modern telling of Portnoise Complaint and
Speaker 1: it is laugh out loud funny. So that's just a
Speaker 1: little for those of you who are looking to Um,
Speaker 1: it's just started. I think there only three episodes into
Speaker 1: the first season. It is a plan but not viewing.
Speaker 1: Can we talk about finally, golf? I've told the show
Speaker 1: needs to be about golf, and here we are not
Speaker 1: talking about golf except for via signs, which are great.
Speaker 1: They ranked player which is ridiculous and I'm ronic one
Speaker 1: again in Australia and wait, is Cam down? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: think I think, so I haven't. I haven't looked. That's
Speaker 1: an absolute first. So I was actually gonna bring this up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So Cam Smith won the Australian p g A and
Speaker 1: m we know that various tainted player of the Year
Speaker 1: awards go out number three. Yeah, what the hell, Ryan,
Speaker 1: I mean he will he will keep dropping inexorably. But no,
Speaker 1: he's yeah, he's still love that. But um, I was gonna,
Speaker 1: I was gonna ask this question. Who is the player
Speaker 1: of the year in golf? You have Rory who won
Speaker 1: the FedEx Cup and the Race to Dubai and various
Speaker 1: other tournaments that played at an exceptionally high level. Or
Speaker 1: you have Cam Smith, who won the Players Flagship event
Speaker 1: of of the PGA Tour. Ironically he's won on the
Speaker 1: Live Tour. He's one in Australia, happened to win of
Speaker 1: the tournament in St Andrews. I mean, to me, it's
Speaker 1: got to be Cam. But there are about John rom
Speaker 1: winning on three continents, as he likes to tell us.
Speaker 1: Yeah he deserves mentioned, but um you know, smaller time tournaments,
Speaker 1: it's Camp Smith, It's Camp Smith. Michael. Do you want
Speaker 1: do you want even make an argument for Rory just
Speaker 1: for the sake of making an argument? You dare double
Speaker 1: dog dare No, No, okay, that's Cap Smith. I think
Speaker 1: it brings up a bigger point though, is like Cam
Speaker 1: Smith still his third idea like he's going to fall right.
Speaker 1: I don't know how long, how long this wind helps him,
Speaker 1: and I don't know how to do eventually if he
Speaker 1: just continues to play you know, live events and they
Speaker 1: don't get points, like if you're if he drops to say,
Speaker 1: and you're the nineteenth ranked player, you know, like it
Speaker 1: becomes it becomes an obsolete ranking system when everyone knows
Speaker 1: that there's x amount of players however many, and that
Speaker 1: at that time live players are are falling down the
Speaker 1: list like it's it. It just devalues the o w
Speaker 1: g R to a joke basically, Michael, you wrote a
Speaker 1: column about this a few days ago on Firepit Collective
Speaker 1: dot com. What are your thoughts about the current state
Speaker 1: of the o w g R. I mean, truly, you know,
Speaker 1: I I never really thought of it, just the way
Speaker 1: that Ryan worded that, but it's it's true. I mean,
Speaker 1: now Cam Smith is not gonna have any problems came
Speaker 1: any tournaments because of what he's won. He's set for
Speaker 1: at least the next five years and probably only than that.
Speaker 1: I think it's truly I felt like it was never
Speaker 1: truly worthwhile a lot of people would argue that it
Speaker 1: is but I don't see what purpose it serves now.
Speaker 1: And I posted that question. You know, you know, David's
Speaker 1: love is the person who planted this idea in my
Speaker 1: head that we don't really need the World Golf Ranking.
Speaker 1: Upon further review, what he's really saying is they shouldn't
Speaker 1: use Every tour should have its own ranking system, and
Speaker 1: that and they and this is actually from David Fay,
Speaker 1: the former executive director of the U s g A.
Speaker 1: His idea was that the four major should get together
Speaker 1: and they should decide on the criteria for getting into
Speaker 1: the majors and only the major's Let live does Let
Speaker 1: Live do its thing, Let the PGA Tour do it's thing,
Speaker 1: Let the dp World Tour do it's thing. And I
Speaker 1: think that's great sense, Alan, I, as you and I
Speaker 1: have talked about before. I'm sure Ryan knows this as well.
Speaker 1: It's a commercial venture that was invented by the guy
Speaker 1: who founded I MG and another I to get their
Speaker 1: international players into more tournaments. As Gene Baman, the former
Speaker 1: pH Tour commission told me last week when McCormick came
Speaker 1: up with it, and this is funny. It what he
Speaker 1: wasn't being altruistic, Yeah, I mean that would be like
Speaker 1: if if we came up with the official World Golf
Speaker 1: Media rankings and the three of us were one, two
Speaker 1: and three, and you know everyone else is below us,
Speaker 1: would be like, Okay, that's slightly suspicious. I mean we could,
Speaker 1: we could invent some metric to justify it. But uh,
Speaker 1: you know, like John Garwardy belongs to the top three
Speaker 1: of all time according to US. Yes, I know, emeritus
Speaker 1: at least. But Claire Rodgers from Golf magazine, Uh, you
Speaker 1: both worked with her, uh, said that we should do
Speaker 1: a bit for media members, you know, and see where
Speaker 1: everybody ranks and and you know, just pay off the best.
Speaker 1: I mean, let's do it. I mean, we need an
Speaker 1: independent body to to pay it out, though you can't
Speaker 1: have it come from the two. But like, I don't
Speaker 1: know if the tour is too independent. That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: We should get like we get the Pulitzer commissioned. But
Speaker 1: will they get into the pit business? What what? What?
Speaker 1: What would it be? Ryan? What is her point? I'm
Speaker 1: just saying, like it's it's she was being rank. She
Speaker 1: was just she was it was a joke. It was
Speaker 1: like Tiger didn't do anything, so like let's say, uh,
Speaker 1: I don't know somebody who's retired or that doesn't write
Speaker 1: much anymore. You guys wouldn't know better, but they would
Speaker 1: automatically win because they were great forever, right like Dan Jenkins,
Speaker 1: Like Dan Jakin's winning the PIP even though he's fucking dead. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: just be like, Oh, I mean he's been the greatest.
Speaker 1: That's all there is in modern golf journalism. Let's have
Speaker 1: an honorarium forever. Yeah, it's like the dream of Tiger
Speaker 1: U well Man post a quick question here on the
Speaker 1: on the subject Pip and I know you're gonna get
Speaker 1: to it. What do you both think? In his heart
Speaker 1: of hearts, he wouldn't admit it, not even to Erica.
Speaker 1: Does Tiger Woods thing him winning the fifteen million dollar
Speaker 1: for place Pip Grand Prize even though he played what
Speaker 1: about three events? Well, he knows it's lame. But I
Speaker 1: think even I remember when remember Michael Jordan's when he
Speaker 1: because the salary cap is if he finally signed his
Speaker 1: first big contractors, like for thirty million dollars and it
Speaker 1: was by far the biggest contract in the league, and
Speaker 1: he complained he was still underpaid because that was factual.
Speaker 1: So I'm sure Tigers like I was, I've always been underpaid,
Speaker 1: so this is like back pay. I think he sees
Speaker 1: it as something that he's owed and that he's due
Speaker 1: and what however, cheeseball the mechanism is to put in
Speaker 1: his pocket. I don't think he's that mad about it.
Speaker 1: I think if you gave him truth Stoom, if you
Speaker 1: gave him truth Stom and he said, well, he would go, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's ridiculous. But if they're gonna pay it, I definitely
Speaker 1: deserve it, and he would be right. I mean, like,
Speaker 1: if they're going to give it to anybody, it's I mean, no, no,
Speaker 1: like it's a ridiculous I just said this in a
Speaker 1: text to a player. I don't I don't know if
Speaker 1: you play, like just say it, like to be like, hey,
Speaker 1: this is it, Like we we make fun of live
Speaker 1: for these guaranteed contracts, like Tiger is going to get whatever.
Speaker 1: The first place prize for pip is is im Perportuity
Speaker 1: is going to be two Tiger Woods, So just say
Speaker 1: it's part of his kind. I mean, just say, hey,
Speaker 1: we're gonna give Tiger Woods forty five million dollars or
Speaker 1: a hundred million dollars or whatever. Don't try to claim
Speaker 1: that there's some metric that measures it, like it's insane,
Speaker 1: Like just say, hey, Tiger has been great for this game.
Speaker 1: He's an important part of it. He's gonna limp out
Speaker 1: there a couple of times a year and we're gonna
Speaker 1: rine him a check for fifteen million. That's it. It's okay.
Speaker 1: No one would be mad at that. Yeah. I made
Speaker 1: this point in a recent ask Allen. And the one
Speaker 1: thing that Tour had going for it in it's in
Speaker 1: this this battle for hearts and minds against Live is
Speaker 1: that it was a meritocracy and you gotta earn it
Speaker 1: over here and over over. On Live, they're just giving
Speaker 1: away money and they're they're they're chanting the competition and
Speaker 1: they're demotivating the players. But now that Tours doing that too,
Speaker 1: because like you said, there's never any doubt that Tiger
Speaker 1: and Rory one two in the pit just as a
Speaker 1: thank you for their advocacy. And we knew that that
Speaker 1: Justin Thomas would be three or four because he was outspoken.
Speaker 1: It's like it is just a slush fund to buy
Speaker 1: these guys loyalty. No one's mad about it, Like Okay,
Speaker 1: we want to keep our best players, so we're gonna
Speaker 1: make him We're gonna make him home. I mean, that's like,
Speaker 1: it is what it is. I'm to Alan's pointed about.
Speaker 1: You know, the whole point of the pH A Tour
Speaker 1: is earn and earn it. Why not just do it
Speaker 1: on a meta, on a meritocracy basis, and just pay
Speaker 1: more money to the players who finished at the top
Speaker 1: of the money list because Tiger wouldn't be there, because
Speaker 1: Tiger's never going to be near the top of the list,
Speaker 1: and and Rory's not gonna be either. I mean, Rory
Speaker 1: might be, but if he like splits up his time
Speaker 1: between Euroupe and here, they just want to pay their
Speaker 1: best players. That But that's what the FedEx Cup is, Michael,
Speaker 1: there's this. It's Gary. It's guaranteed up to a point,
Speaker 1: but you sort of have to earn it. Like but
Speaker 1: it's the fixes kind of in like they've already loved
Speaker 1: the tour, doesn't doesn't want to pay Corey Connors any
Speaker 1: extra money, Okay, Like if he want the money list
Speaker 1: and they got fifteen more million, they'd be like Jesus,
Speaker 1: like this one's gonna hurt I gotta write a fifteen
Speaker 1: million dollar check to Corey Connor to be fair to
Speaker 1: the people listening. I love Corey Connors. I think he
Speaker 1: deserves it. Go ahead. I think the real question is
Speaker 1: does the tourer want to be true to what the
Speaker 1: tour has always represented? And sadly it's not. And I
Speaker 1: think actually that's going to cost the tour in the
Speaker 1: long run. I think they want to Michael, they can't.
Speaker 1: I mean that, what like there are other choice is
Speaker 1: to let if they don't do anything, if they didn't
Speaker 1: do these elevated events, if they didn't do pitt Eventually
Speaker 1: the money being dangled by the Lift Tour just becomes
Speaker 1: too good in my opinion. I mean, it already has
Speaker 1: been too good for very top players if there wasn't
Speaker 1: some some change on the PGA Tour. Again, I don't
Speaker 1: really blame the PGA Tour for changing. I blame them
Speaker 1: for this like bullshit that they you know, put that
Speaker 1: there's some metric to measure PIP. I mean, just say
Speaker 1: it again, there is metric, but it's ridiculous. Well so
Speaker 1: to the point, does Tiger deserve the top PIP money?
Speaker 1: So they had these five categories and he was actually
Speaker 1: number one in Google searches among all golfers, which is us.
Speaker 1: You know, it definitely would be tied to the public interest.
Speaker 1: There's the melt Water mans Alan Quickdowne on that sadly,
Speaker 1: you could drive off the side of the road and
Speaker 1: kill and and that's terrible word to use. You could
Speaker 1: drive up the side of the road and do very
Speaker 1: well on Google searches. Yeah, that's true, that's true. You know,
Speaker 1: same with melt Water, which is social media. He was
Speaker 1: number one Q score, which is I mean again, that's it.
Speaker 1: That's the that's the perfect right, like social media. He's
Speaker 1: terrible at social media, right, he doesn't do anything like
Speaker 1: agents do it. His PR team doesn't. He doesn't and
Speaker 1: I understand he doesn't want to do he doesn't need
Speaker 1: to do it, so it's PR team doesn't like That's
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. Yeah, but you put if Tiger post
Speaker 1: one swing video, it dominates social media, like so the
Speaker 1: tour has they are trying to quantify it, but it
Speaker 1: is They all got in a room and go, hey, guys,
Speaker 1: we need to quantify Tiger winning every year. To come
Speaker 1: up with a system Tiger every year. I know, but
Speaker 1: if you if you do a deep dive on the
Speaker 1: on some of the pip stuff. It is funny like, um,
Speaker 1: you know, John Ram went from ninth to fiveth, which
Speaker 1: meant extra many millions of dollars, but you didn't actually
Speaker 1: pass anybody. It's just the Live guys. Everybody left, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Nicholson to Shambo, DJ and Brooks were excised and that's
Speaker 1: how we roll went from ninth to fifth. It's not
Speaker 1: even popular, never was. But the other guys. Can either
Speaker 1: of you explain to me this absolute weirdness by which
Speaker 1: some guys got paid based on what the rules will
Speaker 1: be in three. I really didn't understand that. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so that was That was Headecki and cam Young you
Speaker 1: cam ung I. I believe that those two players were
Speaker 1: possibly going to sign with Live and magically they've gotten
Speaker 1: a to another two million dollars. It's like it's like
Speaker 1: it's a fixed system. It's no possible way it is
Speaker 1: because the tour is completely upstanding. They would never do that.
Speaker 1: It's just I didn't even understand incidental. I didn't even
Speaker 1: understand that. Alan, can you explain the footnote? The footnote
Speaker 1: is they didn't want those guys to leave, so they
Speaker 1: came up to right the Phillies. Phillies might win the
Speaker 1: World Series next year, and they played pretty durnwell this year,
Speaker 1: so we're going to give him a World Series ring anyhow.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, the tour basically said we're going to
Speaker 1: change the rules next year. But if these if if
Speaker 1: the new rules were in effect this year, these guys
Speaker 1: would have finished in the top twenty. So we don't
Speaker 1: want to penalize them for an old system, which is
Speaker 1: still the current system. So we're gonna give the money
Speaker 1: under the new system. Which doesn't completely coincidental that those
Speaker 1: two players were in talks with Live not even you
Speaker 1: know that five word piece that you might or might
Speaker 1: not write about how Tim and Finchham gone to Augusta National.
Speaker 1: It already won the Golf Writers Association Award for News,
Speaker 1: so I would even I wouldn't even bother writing it
Speaker 1: at this point. I I will look forward to getting
Speaker 1: the plaque in the mail. Um. Yeah, the whole thing
Speaker 1: is so nutty, and but I, you know, I agree
Speaker 1: with both of you, Michael, like I does think. I
Speaker 1: do think that this this damages the tours standing and
Speaker 1: it makes them look ridiculous, and it makes them look cheesy,
Speaker 1: And I agree with Ryan that they had to do
Speaker 1: something and this was some way to to hand out
Speaker 1: the money, and so this is just here, this is
Speaker 1: where we are. Yeah, I mean that second part is
Speaker 1: really interesting to me because why why do you feel
Speaker 1: he had to do something? In other words, if you
Speaker 1: redefine yourself to such a degree that you're not what
Speaker 1: you have been, then are you actually defeating your own
Speaker 1: stated purpose? Well, Michael, this is the difference is you're
Speaker 1: an idealist and Ryan is a realist. And I agree
Speaker 1: with what you're saying that that the tour has always
Speaker 1: been a symbol of of of of of merit, and
Speaker 1: it's always been the ultimate proving ground. But those days
Speaker 1: are over. I mean, the landscape has changed so dramatically,
Speaker 1: that human nature being what it is, when the money
Speaker 1: being so big that the tour had to fight for
Speaker 1: its top players. And you can't do that with pats
Speaker 1: on the back, and you can't do it with um,
Speaker 1: you know, feel good TV commercials. You gotta do it
Speaker 1: with cold hard cash. That's just that's what the name
Speaker 1: of the game is. And they had to find a system,
Speaker 1: and this is what they came up with. You see,
Speaker 1: I think that it was so called best players left
Speaker 1: then you know his Nicholas has been saying this for
Speaker 1: a while. Then new best players would emerge eventually, But like,
Speaker 1: I mean, who who's who's the best player who's emerged
Speaker 1: in the in the last couple of years. It's Cam Smith,
Speaker 1: He's gone, Oh Cam Young? You know some someone will
Speaker 1: come up. Yeah, but yeah, Young was almost gone. And
Speaker 1: and if they didn't do all these things and they
Speaker 1: didn't give it to him, he's probably already gone. Well.
Speaker 1: And and Scottie Shuffler would be the other player who's
Speaker 1: really emerged in the last twelve eight months. And we
Speaker 1: all love the guy, but he's boring as hell, and
Speaker 1: it's hard. It's hard to build. I mean, are you
Speaker 1: gonna are you gonna make Scotty Shuffler your your show pony?
Speaker 1: Like if they lost speed, then they lost Rory, Like,
Speaker 1: I mean, come on, you're right, Eventually new players fill
Speaker 1: the void. But but not if you not, if you're
Speaker 1: considered a triple a of of golf, like you gotta
Speaker 1: have you gotta have an argument about who who's the best,
Speaker 1: what's the best tour In order to have some value
Speaker 1: to create new stars, you see. I think there's a
Speaker 1: built in supposition to what you both are saying that
Speaker 1: the world has some ryan What the supposition? What is that?
Speaker 1: Keep talking about them? I think that I think there's
Speaker 1: a built in supposition to what you guys are saying
Speaker 1: that there's some kind of demand for a global golf tour,
Speaker 1: and I don't think there is. The best players did
Speaker 1: come gravitate to the United States, including seven, Greg Norman
Speaker 1: and many others over the years, Cam Smith and Rory
Speaker 1: McElroy because the tour had, you know, the best events,
Speaker 1: the best range balls of course, the highest purses and
Speaker 1: all the rest. But it was still an American tour,
Speaker 1: and there was a European tour, and there was a
Speaker 1: nation tour. And I don't really think that's ever going
Speaker 1: to change. And uh, at some point this this this
Speaker 1: lived tour is going to have to I don't know.
Speaker 1: I just don't actually think it's going to fly as
Speaker 1: a global tour because there's no history of that ever succeeding.
Speaker 1: There's a there's a history for the opposite, and that's
Speaker 1: why the four Majors are the four majors. Michael, I
Speaker 1: agree with that part in some sense, but it doesn't
Speaker 1: mean the players of today wouldn't leave like they Obviously,
Speaker 1: everybody has a price within reason. I mean Cam Smith,
Speaker 1: I don't think he was lying when he said, hey,
Speaker 1: have enough money, you know, I want to buy fishing boats, whatever.
Speaker 1: And then they put out whatever. They put out two
Speaker 1: hundred million dollars for him to go, and he's like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: two hundred million dollars, it's still two hundred million dollars.
Speaker 1: Uh uh. I mean, I just I just don't I
Speaker 1: I don't think the players would care enough with the
Speaker 1: right price. And I mean they've made a ton of inroads.
Speaker 1: They have some of the best players, you know, they have.
Speaker 1: People can argue about this all the time, but at
Speaker 1: some point they have like whatever, seven of the top ten,
Speaker 1: you know, or seven players that have been in the
Speaker 1: top ten. I mean they have some of the best
Speaker 1: players in the DJ and and Brooks were the best
Speaker 1: player in the world not too long ago. And they're gone.
Speaker 1: They're gone, and they were gone from our consciousness. I mean,
Speaker 1: when do you ever think about either of those guys.
Speaker 1: I just wrote it. I just wrote a story about
Speaker 1: Brooks's brother, so a lot, and he turned me down
Speaker 1: for what's his what's his agent's name, Jeff Blake with
Speaker 1: the Bengals quarterback Blake Smith Blake, Smith Blake, if you're
Speaker 1: listening next time, it was yeah, Blake, it was a
Speaker 1: bad choice, Blake, like, this is such a humanizing story
Speaker 1: and the whole Worlds Brooks is a dick. This would
Speaker 1: have been a nice chance for him to show that
Speaker 1: he's a caring, loving big brother and show a softer
Speaker 1: side and it was anyway, well let's move on. But um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, we can talk about this forever. I think again,
Speaker 1: you guys are both right, Like, yes, Michael, there's there's
Speaker 1: not a ton of interest and live golf other than
Speaker 1: the noise around it. No one's bought into the competition
Speaker 1: yet and it maybe in three or five years it
Speaker 1: does kind of fizzle out, but the PGA Tour could
Speaker 1: not give up its stars for that long. And um,
Speaker 1: you know, like Sam burn is another guy who's really
Speaker 1: emerged in the last few years and there's no golf
Speaker 1: and that has the same emotional investment in Sam Burns
Speaker 1: as they do. And George Speed like you can't replace
Speaker 1: one with the other and think it's not going to
Speaker 1: hurt the tour. I'm not saying Jordan is ever even
Speaker 1: close to leaving, but like it's those top guys, you
Speaker 1: have to they drive the whole sport. I mean, when
Speaker 1: Jordan is playing well, there is an electricity around the
Speaker 1: golf world that you can't you can't just plug another
Speaker 1: layer in and think that people are gonna care in
Speaker 1: the same way. It's a you know, there's a unique
Speaker 1: confluence of personality and game and history and um. You know,
Speaker 1: so the tour had to keep their guys. They just did.
Speaker 1: I I don't agree. I really do believe it's golf
Speaker 1: that drives golf and uh, and whoever wins, you know,
Speaker 1: Curtis Strange became Curtis Strange on the basis of winning. Uh.
Speaker 1: There was a period, you know, after Nicholas is heyday
Speaker 1: and even Watson's heyday in the eighties when they sort
Speaker 1: of look like automatons and you couldn't tell the difference
Speaker 1: between you know, you know, John Cook and the next guy.
Speaker 1: But first off, but there was no other place to
Speaker 1: watch golf, Michael, now there is. That's that's the difference.
Speaker 1: It's like, really, what what what what is the other
Speaker 1: place to watch golf live? I'm saying there's another name
Speaker 1: three people. I love that. I'm just saying there's another
Speaker 1: place to get it, Like you know, people, I totally
Speaker 1: agree with you, Michael. I've said it many times. Live
Speaker 1: is like a snooze fest. To me, I'm not disagreeing
Speaker 1: with you. I don't. I would from a golf perspective,
Speaker 1: I want the PGA Tour to be the place that
Speaker 1: I watched my golf. It's just the way it is.
Speaker 1: But well, there hasn't, but there hasn't been another place
Speaker 1: to get it because Live has not been on TV,
Speaker 1: so like this this this year. You're right, Michael, that
Speaker 1: really wasn't. But assuming that that that's TV deal happens
Speaker 1: before Live launches in February, like that would be a
Speaker 1: game changer. If you can walk into a grill room
Speaker 1: and COMMUNI course and have Live on, or you can
Speaker 1: just while you're channel surfing, you can ease theisiblicks are
Speaker 1: ahead of the Red Dragons. But the point is, if
Speaker 1: you're a casual golf fan and you you have you
Speaker 1: can choose between watching like a Dustin cam Smith Brooks
Speaker 1: kept Bryson the Shambo shootout versus Sam Burns beating um.
Speaker 1: You know Corey Connors. I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: will do fault players that they know, and so this
Speaker 1: was this year was a beta test for Live. And
Speaker 1: I don't think we could really make any serious um
Speaker 1: or drawing serious conclusions until the end of twenty three,
Speaker 1: when they've had a full year on TV and they've
Speaker 1: baked out their concept and they're not just building the
Speaker 1: plane while they fly it. So, UM, I think the
Speaker 1: jury style this question and I like that, you know,
Speaker 1: I I appreciate the courage of your convictions, Michael, And uh,
Speaker 1: that's part of this forum is we're free to disagree
Speaker 1: with each other. But um, I think Live can evolve
Speaker 1: into something that people will watch passively. They may not
Speaker 1: care as much, But I think, did you say passionately?
Speaker 1: I said passively? It's just kind of on and you
Speaker 1: and you enjoy. Yeah, right, that's that's that's a that's
Speaker 1: a big difference because to me, the things that we're
Speaker 1: drawn to actually have some cultural emotional impact on our lives.
Speaker 1: Like let's say, like the winner of the Baseball World Series,
Speaker 1: the winner of you know, the of the of the
Speaker 1: Japan Baseball League's World Series. It would be novel and
Speaker 1: it would be sort of interesting, but it wouldn't be
Speaker 1: bigger than the World Series, would just be some added
Speaker 1: on thing. Uh. I think they've got an immense challenge
Speaker 1: ahead of them. And you know, also even like every
Speaker 1: once in a while there's a freakish event on the
Speaker 1: PGA Tour, like they're at Tampa, you know, and shawn
Speaker 1: O hair plays good. It's like, wow, where's this guy Ben?
Speaker 1: And uh, there's it's so beautiful. Uh, because he earned
Speaker 1: his way in. He earned his way into the final group.
Speaker 1: And now like, let's see what this skinny kid can do.
Speaker 1: I mean that to me is golf? How old is
Speaker 1: Shuttle here? Yestree? I was gonna say forty one? Hold on,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm gonna say thirty nine. Shuttle't here,
Speaker 1: it's forty years old. Good call Alan, Hey, this is
Speaker 1: a fun little bit. Let's not. Let's not. There's a
Speaker 1: bit that just ended. Um. But you've been you've been
Speaker 1: talking about how how much money is in professional golf?
Speaker 1: You see. You see the power of being the host, Bryan,
Speaker 1: Because I would love to ask you, how do you
Speaker 1: think Chrissie kim is I can't because that bit is over. Sorry,
Speaker 1: it's a great question. I love to know what you think.
Speaker 1: I'll never get your answer. Well, whatever wants to talk about,
Speaker 1: go ahead and talking about this. It's not it's not
Speaker 1: about me. It's about the listeners, and we don't want
Speaker 1: to test their patients while Ryan searches the Internet modem.
Speaker 1: By the way, Ryan Allen ship because of my good
Speaker 1: friends for twenty five years, I cannot tell you his
Speaker 1: age with a half decade everybody. Every two years I
Speaker 1: have to ask Schipnuk are you older younger than Tiger Woods?
Speaker 1: And even right now I can't remember older older. Actually
Speaker 1: I have a big birthday coming up in May. I'll
Speaker 1: be I'll be for the Senior Tour. So it makes
Speaker 1: things easier. I think I can remember that. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Uh oh well, okay, speaking of Tiger Ways, let's let's
Speaker 1: we gotta touch on this because Tiger Month is about
Speaker 1: to begin. I mean he's playing three times. Um, you
Speaker 1: know he's gonna make those three tournaments fifteen million dollars. Well,
Speaker 1: there's guaranteed payout at the Hero World Challenge too, so
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's an appearance feat that it's a non
Speaker 1: sanctioned event. Yeah so yeah, So I mean in a
Speaker 1: few days that the hero kicks off down the Bahamas
Speaker 1: and um, you know it's obviously a great field Tigers
Speaker 1: he's and they're giving out world ranking point there's only
Speaker 1: twenty guys there, so Tiger's gonna move up a thousand
Speaker 1: spots just by teeing it up. But I know, I know,
Speaker 1: so for all the tour purists who who who loved
Speaker 1: the bag on Live for trying to get world ranking points,
Speaker 1: this is a tough week for them. Tough week, really
Speaker 1: tough week. And then of course I'm actually I'm sort
Speaker 1: of looking forward of the match seven and they're using
Speaker 1: Roman numerals, another affront to to the Live people. The
Speaker 1: match v one one. Um, but I mean that's a
Speaker 1: lost oar power. It's Tiger and Rory against JT and Speeed.
Speaker 1: I mean I'll watch that. It's it's always awkward. You know,
Speaker 1: they're biked up, they're trying to be funny and they're not,
Speaker 1: and Tigers brooding and you know JT is being petulant
Speaker 1: like their true selves always come out eventually, But um,
Speaker 1: you know, I that to me, that will be worth watching.
Speaker 1: It's under the lights on a Saturday night after pretty
Speaker 1: much after all the football is over. Um is Michaelson
Speaker 1: doing the play by play on? Yeah? So I mean
Speaker 1: Michael he should that would be epic. But Michelson has
Speaker 1: been booted out of the franchise. That's one of the
Speaker 1: biggest losses of Phil leaving. I mean, he was going
Speaker 1: to be the best announcer in golf history. I mean
Speaker 1: he was going to be unreal and now gone forever.
Speaker 1: I mean, if if Live is smart, they put him
Speaker 1: up there in the in the booth of charity and
Speaker 1: really well, I mean that's um, you know, if if
Speaker 1: they didn't have shotguns, you could do it like put
Speaker 1: Phil the morning wave then he commentates in the afternoon
Speaker 1: kind of thing. But unfortunately he's on the course at
Speaker 1: the same time. But um, maybe he'll mysteriously like sprain
Speaker 1: his wrist and he'll just be in the booth for
Speaker 1: the whole all of next year. It would be he
Speaker 1: would be way more valuable on the mic than between
Speaker 1: the By the way, just quick, before we get more
Speaker 1: into this, shaunow Hare has twenty five million dollars in
Speaker 1: career earnings. I was gonna say that, but we got sidetracked.
Speaker 1: So talking about there's you know, all this new money
Speaker 1: in golf, Well, there's always been money in golf, because
Speaker 1: years ago I was talking to Paul Casey, who's a
Speaker 1: big Porsche guy. He now has a deal and he's
Speaker 1: got a bunch of Porsches, and he was he says,
Speaker 1: he was talking about Shanno Hare's Ferrari collection. I was like,
Speaker 1: shadow Hair has Ferrari's. God, I should have worked at
Speaker 1: my short game like this is when shawn O'Hair was
Speaker 1: like in the depths of of like a multi year slope,
Speaker 1: like it's always been decadent out there, but it's gotten
Speaker 1: way more so. Um. But I was I've rarely been
Speaker 1: that like flabber gas about any piece of information. It
Speaker 1: was nothing against him. He's had a good career, especially
Speaker 1: when he's young. But when he's owner Ferrari's things are
Speaker 1: going well, very well. I've seen him fly coach with me,
Speaker 1: uh West palmed to Philadelphia, so well, maybe maybe he
Speaker 1: sold them off. But at that moment in time, whenever
Speaker 1: that was like, honestly, it's like two thousand thirteen or fourteen,
Speaker 1: I was like, god, damn um. And then of course,
Speaker 1: just to finish off the tiger bit and we'll talk
Speaker 1: about these things when they actually happened. But talking about
Speaker 1: Tiger month, the fifth Major is now the father's son.
Speaker 1: That's the week before Christmas. And um I said this again,
Speaker 1: and one of one of my mail bags that I
Speaker 1: think at this moment in time that that Charlie Woods
Speaker 1: is a single most valuable commercial property in golf. If
Speaker 1: you could sign any player for any endorsement, I think
Speaker 1: it's Charlie Woods because you also get Tiger with him,
Speaker 1: and you're gonna go on this journey with him. Like
Speaker 1: if if I if I became CEO tomorrow of whatever,
Speaker 1: A T and T, and I could only sign one player,
Speaker 1: he would be Charlie Woods. Like the interest in that kid,
Speaker 1: and he's you know, he's got a beautiful golf swing,
Speaker 1: he's great looking, he's multicultural, it's got the most famous
Speaker 1: name in sports. Like um, so the the the Charlie
Speaker 1: content that week is gonna be out of control because
Speaker 1: he's gotten bigger and stronger and he's sitting it farther
Speaker 1: and um, you know it's people are just obsessed with him.
Speaker 1: So I'm not saying it's the it's it's an indictment
Speaker 1: of popular culture and and and the marketplace and everything else.
Speaker 1: But I honestly believe that that Charlie Wood is more
Speaker 1: valuable than Roy McElroy or Dustin Johnson or John rom
Speaker 1: or any of them. Yeah, the PGA Tour is rooting
Speaker 1: hard for Charlie Woods too to bring it home and
Speaker 1: then a couple of years like skip college be good
Speaker 1: enough at like nineteen or twenty to go directly to
Speaker 1: the PGA Tour. I mean they are, they are all
Speaker 1: in because if Charlie Woods becomes any sort of player,
Speaker 1: the tables have turned again back towards the PGA Tour.
Speaker 1: I try not to be serious on this show, but
Speaker 1: I just really hope that Charlie Woods can find happiness
Speaker 1: because being Tiger Woods, his kid's gotta beat. I just
Speaker 1: wrote an article about Chase not easy to be the
Speaker 1: little brother of the best player in the world. This
Speaker 1: is obviously on a humongously another level than that, uh
Speaker 1: or thirty times or a hundred times above that the
Speaker 1: kid of Tiger Woods has got some real pressure, especially
Speaker 1: because he plays the game at a somewhat good level.
Speaker 1: Now he's not like a top top of the world,
Speaker 1: but he's getting better, and uh it's I just hope
Speaker 1: the kid finds some happiness that's way too serious for
Speaker 1: this podcast. But you're never going to live up to
Speaker 1: what your dad did. It's impossible, Uh, And everybody's or
Speaker 1: the general public is going to expect you to be something.
Speaker 1: And I hope that if he wants wins one corn
Speaker 1: for event and never does anything, that he's happy. I
Speaker 1: do think that actually, in a weird way, that the
Speaker 1: pressure is lower on Charlie because we know he can't
Speaker 1: be as good as his dad. Nobody can. And it's also,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know about this very well, Michael, Like,
Speaker 1: in the long history of golf, there's been many sons
Speaker 1: who follow, you know, follow their fathers, and there's been brothers,
Speaker 1: there's it's just it's very rare. I mean, is Bill
Speaker 1: Hoss Is he the best uh you know progeny of
Speaker 1: a tour player to come along? Who's who else is
Speaker 1: in the conversation. But it's not like there's been these
Speaker 1: multigeneration dynasties. Yeah, did did Davis Love Junior quickly? The
Speaker 1: quickly quickly? It's quickly in Dana, Yeah, David Davis Love
Speaker 1: Junior played some tournament golf and Davis three played rap
Speaker 1: Floyd's kid played for a while, yeah, Robert, Yeah, Gary
Speaker 1: player's kids or won the one success successful in golf. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and a lot of them unfortunately weren't successful in light
Speaker 1: and other things in life. Right. Yeah. So, I mean
Speaker 1: I think if Charlie could could if and again this
Speaker 1: is this is a it's an incredibly high bar. If
Speaker 1: you could even just be an everyday tour player and
Speaker 1: maybe squeak out a win here or they're like, that
Speaker 1: would be he would probably be the second greatest son
Speaker 1: in golf history behind Bill has like that, that would
Speaker 1: be an accomplishment. So, um, there is there even a
Speaker 1: single example of a of a daughter of a LPG
Speaker 1: player who who who made it onto the tour the
Speaker 1: second generation lp J player. Yeah, that's not for me. No,
Speaker 1: that's true. Um. I know Honica's kids are really into it.
Speaker 1: Her has a she has a son and a daughter.
Speaker 1: But no, I can't think of any that that's a
Speaker 1: great point. I mean, I mean, I think golf is
Speaker 1: really the um it's it's really a sport of fathers
Speaker 1: and sons. I mean, you know, Ryan, you've written very
Speaker 1: eloquently about the rest of beyond with your dad, and
Speaker 1: that's that's how so many people are drawn to the game.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because, um, you know, I'm I'm writing about
Speaker 1: Greg Norman well all the time, but especially for this
Speaker 1: live book and are another typing colleague, ards Tom Collahan
Speaker 1: Callahan had a great riff about how you know, it's
Speaker 1: always about fathers and sons in golf, but there's only
Speaker 1: there's only two mama's boys out there. One is foul though,
Speaker 1: and his mom was was really the driving persons career,
Speaker 1: and the others Norman because Norman's dad didn't play golf,
Speaker 1: it was his mom, and Norman's exposure to the game
Speaker 1: was caddying for his mom. And so it's interesting that, Um,
Speaker 1: that's just one way they're linked. But it's hard to
Speaker 1: think of any others. You could say Tiger in some
Speaker 1: ways because Tita kind of gave him that killer instinct
Speaker 1: and she was a huge part of his career as well.
Speaker 1: But we all know Earl gets all the credit. So uh,
Speaker 1: it's it's an interesting debate. I mean, well, we'll see,
Speaker 1: We'll see how how Charlie plays. It's all eyes are
Speaker 1: on Tiger, but in a weird way, Charlie is a
Speaker 1: bigger star coming you know at the father son, have
Speaker 1: you made any Are you gonna try to reach Norman's parents?
Speaker 1: I believe they're still love. Yeah, I put some feelers out.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's an interesting it's an interesting challenge. You know,
Speaker 1: this book, the the this lawsuit, this antitrust lawsuit between
Speaker 1: the tour and Live Golf has given everyone to cover
Speaker 1: to say no to interviews and to try and lock
Speaker 1: things down. But I'm I'm starting to make some I'm
Speaker 1: starting to crack that a little bit. Um. I'm when
Speaker 1: I said I was talking about that that show Fleischmann,
Speaker 1: and you said Ari Fleischer, Ryan, I'm I'm actually I'm
Speaker 1: actually dealing with Ari Fleischer because he's, oh, he's he's
Speaker 1: at he's a head of Live or whatever. He's like
Speaker 1: something's whatever. He's basically like a general counsel in some
Speaker 1: ways to that, and so like I have to I
Speaker 1: pretty much have to, I think, convince him to if
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get some more face time in Norman. Even
Speaker 1: though you know, I talked to Norman in the parking
Speaker 1: lot in Portland. We had this like come to Jesus
Speaker 1: conversation for half an hour and um, and he said
Speaker 1: he would he shook my hand. He looked me in
Speaker 1: the eye and said, yeah, I'll let's sit down. I'll
Speaker 1: tell you everything. And but you know, everyone has a boss,
Speaker 1: including Greg Norman. So he's been put on ice for now.
Speaker 1: But I'm this is all subject um to negotiation and revision.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's it's it's a fun challenge. Michael.
Speaker 1: He's a really interesting person to write about because you know,
Speaker 1: he is a he is a bright person, he's a
Speaker 1: charismatic person um and he must be extremely popular because
Speaker 1: it seems like everything that he at touches the name
Speaker 1: to his name to cells, and yet it seems like
Speaker 1: he's also one of the most reviled figures in golf.
Speaker 1: I've I've spent a lot of time with Norman. I've
Speaker 1: always found very enjoyable really just just to be with.
Speaker 1: I'm really sort of perplexed by, you know, this whole thing.
Speaker 1: You know, if we've heard it from many people, Rory
Speaker 1: and Davis and UH and even UH Commissioner Jay Monahan
Speaker 1: and UH. He's brash and there's a lot of things
Speaker 1: you can say about him, but I don't see the
Speaker 1: level of virtual for him. I don't really know where
Speaker 1: that that comes from you have Do you have an
Speaker 1: insight into that one? Is it what was it always there?
Speaker 1: Um or? Or did come out of lived? Did has
Speaker 1: Tiger stirred it up in some ways? Since there's such
Speaker 1: an amounts of between those two. Yeah, it's interesting. I
Speaker 1: mean I've been going back and reading a lot of
Speaker 1: old stuff about Norman, old magazine profiles, old newspaper clippings,
Speaker 1: um biographies, and everyone seems to think he's really fun
Speaker 1: to hang out with if you can get if you
Speaker 1: can just go out fishing with him, or you can
Speaker 1: sit around and drink a Foster's that he does have
Speaker 1: a lot of charm and charisma, but you put him
Speaker 1: in in the in the arena, whether it's it's a
Speaker 1: golf tournament or it's in a boardroom, and there's a
Speaker 1: different side to him, and it's he's he gets very defensive,
Speaker 1: he's very bitter, he's very calculating, and so I think
Speaker 1: your experience is genuine. Michael, like, if you can just
Speaker 1: if you could just be around him one on one,
Speaker 1: I think I think it's a good company. But you know,
Speaker 1: butch Harmon had a great quote that um I dug
Speaker 1: up somewhere He's like, there's just two Greg Norman's back
Speaker 1: to your point, Michael, I mean, I think a lot
Speaker 1: of the general public probably likes Greg Norman because they
Speaker 1: just don't know the other side of him. Same with Phil. Right,
Speaker 1: this is like he kind of fooled I don't know,
Speaker 1: fooled everybody for a long time. And and maybe live
Speaker 1: has made it more prominent for both of them, obviously
Speaker 1: in the book and whatnot. But like, you know, the
Speaker 1: general golfing public like Greg Norman because he was good looking,
Speaker 1: and he was good and talked, you know, like articulate
Speaker 1: and and fun and I and Phil was fun and
Speaker 1: thumbs up and all that kind of and people loved him.
Speaker 1: The general golf public loved him. That people on the
Speaker 1: inside probably like, yeah, he's an asshole. Yeah. No. The
Speaker 1: parallels are very interesting because Norman and Nicholson have never
Speaker 1: been friends. Of Norman's about fifteen years older, but uh,
Speaker 1: they're definitely kindred spirits. There's a lot of similarities there,
Speaker 1: and they're even the way they played the game right,
Speaker 1: you know, reckless to the point one of all the
Speaker 1: tournaments and they lost a lot of tournaments. But the
Speaker 1: way they lived the life is kind of similar, as
Speaker 1: you're saying, Ryan, like, there's been a lot of there.
Speaker 1: They've left a lot of wreckage behind them, and it's
Speaker 1: wild that they are now. Um, their fortunes and their
Speaker 1: their legacies are linked in some ways. Um, there's just
Speaker 1: a very similar energy around both of them. So it's
Speaker 1: kind of fun to alwinn that as Obviously I went
Speaker 1: deep on Phil and now I'm doing the same on Norman.
Speaker 1: And you may want to save this for the book,
Speaker 1: but what is Norman bitter about? I mean, came over
Speaker 1: here with nothing but uh, you know, some golf shirts
Speaker 1: and and look at him, now, why is he better? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's an interesting thing. I Mean, the guy's always
Speaker 1: you know, the man who had everything right and it
Speaker 1: was never enough, and there was a voracious nous. They're
Speaker 1: almost like an emptiness and um, there's there. If there's
Speaker 1: something devoid at your core, you're always trying to fill
Speaker 1: it up with with other things. And I think that's
Speaker 1: kind of been the story of Norman's life. For Greg
Speaker 1: hasn't always just been the the fight to conquer, like
Speaker 1: kind of the Chris Everett right, like, oh hey, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna marry Chris Everett and now I'm not even gonna
Speaker 1: live with her and we're gonna be divorced in a
Speaker 1: few minutes. Like like, if Live becomes the most popular
Speaker 1: golf and the PGA Tour is dead, I don't think
Speaker 1: that's gonna happen. Both just say it does. Greg's gonna
Speaker 1: leave because, like that said, he like once Live, if
Speaker 1: Live ever gets to the top of the golf world,
Speaker 1: Craig's gonna leave because he's just he's all about the fight.
Speaker 1: It seems from the outside, I don't know nothing about
Speaker 1: I've never had any conversations with him, just saying like
Speaker 1: it just looks like from the outside, everything he's done
Speaker 1: has kind of been like the fight, and then when
Speaker 1: it's when the fight's over, he's just like, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: out of here. Yeah, that's true. He kind of thrives
Speaker 1: on conflict, it seems like. And uh, he's it's an
Speaker 1: interesting it's an interesting thing. I mean, he he's always
Speaker 1: been an outsider, right coming trying to conquer Europe early
Speaker 1: in his career, then coming to America, he always had
Speaker 1: to he always had to kind of uh scrap and
Speaker 1: for acceptance, and then he was he was the best
Speaker 1: player in the world and he had all the endorsements
Speaker 1: and he was on the throne, and then that ultimate
Speaker 1: humiliation of trying to get the world tore going. And
Speaker 1: you know that that's obviously a seminal moment in all
Speaker 1: of this. But there's a pattern here, like he's he's
Speaker 1: always been the outsider and he kind of I think
Speaker 1: he thrives on it, but it also, yeah, it embitters
Speaker 1: him because he doesn't have that acceptance that he craves
Speaker 1: so deeply. And so he's a fascinating character and it's
Speaker 1: you know, he's he was, he was the most important
Speaker 1: guy in global golf for a long time and you
Speaker 1: can argue he is once again, which is exactly how
Speaker 1: he wants it. I mean, it is amazing. You know,
Speaker 1: people you know Ryan's age and younger, would you know,
Speaker 1: talk so much about how Justin Thomas and Jordan's Speith
Speaker 1: and Rory McRoy you don't model their their golfing lives
Speaker 1: and ambitions over over Tiger Woods. But in the history
Speaker 1: of golf, there's never been a study of of a
Speaker 1: golfer closer than Tiger Woods. Making the life and times
Speaker 1: of Greg Norman m surprised that story is not more
Speaker 1: widely known. But between Butch Harmon and Steve Williams and
Speaker 1: you know, Greater Jupiter, Florida and just so many you know,
Speaker 1: driving it long and and play, you know, Uh, really
Speaker 1: focusing on distance control is the number one goal of
Speaker 1: your irons. Uh. The work ethic of both was extraordinary.
Speaker 1: Butch Harmon, if I didn't mention that, it's just a long,
Speaker 1: long list. Uh, but I don't think the general public
Speaker 1: has really even picked up on that. And and I
Speaker 1: believe the order goes alan You'll know, it's better than
Speaker 1: I I think. I think Greg Norman was the number
Speaker 1: one player in the world according to the Official World
Speaker 1: Golf Rankings is founded by Mark McCormick. Oh, they both
Speaker 1: went to I MJ. And then I think I think
Speaker 1: the next guy was Tiger Woods. Is that correct? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have to I have to look at it. Six
Speaker 1: or seven, there was there was Tom Lehman was world
Speaker 1: number one for one week in there. It's like one
Speaker 1: of my favorite I think it probably went from Norman
Speaker 1: to Woods. There was a passage at the Mantel for sure,
Speaker 1: and even I mean the nineties six Masters, of course,
Speaker 1: which is a defining moment in Norman's career. He comes
Speaker 1: back in ninety seven, so hell bent on redemption and
Speaker 1: uh he misses the cut and Tiger wins, and it's
Speaker 1: like at that Norman's career ended up at that point,
Speaker 1: like he was ceased to be relevant in any way. Now,
Speaker 1: Tiger he clipped a lot of people, but Norman was hoping,
Speaker 1: how one last act and that was it. It It was over.
Speaker 1: And just the the how jarring that was to go
Speaker 1: from one master to the next seven Like what you're
Speaker 1: saying is true, Michael, I mean Tigers stole what should
Speaker 1: have been Greg's in some ways, you know, whether it
Speaker 1: was a caddy or was a swing coach or it
Speaker 1: was it was a place in the game. And and
Speaker 1: Harmon definitely there was a fork in the road. He
Speaker 1: had to am, I gonna stay with Norman, orm I
Speaker 1: gonna go with Tiger, And he obviously we know how
Speaker 1: what he chose, and and so he chose the guy
Speaker 1: like Norman's said, he chose correctly guy like Norman is
Speaker 1: not used to being spurned, and that that burned him,
Speaker 1: Like there's always been no love loss between those two characters,
Speaker 1: Tiger and Norman, and you're seeing it still playing out.
Speaker 1: I mean that was quarter century ago and and there's
Speaker 1: still on the opposite you know, sides of the of
Speaker 1: the ledger now, so it's uh, it is. It is
Speaker 1: interesting subtext and that's definitely something I'm pursuing. But you're
Speaker 1: you're very perceptive there. Michael Norman loves to tell the
Speaker 1: story about that they both live. I think that would
Speaker 1: be considered uh Jupiter Island, and uh they've got these
Speaker 1: little bridges uh to take you over the intra coastal,
Speaker 1: and Norman loves to tell the story. I'm sure Alan
Speaker 1: you can get to tell it. Uh, where the bridge
Speaker 1: goes up and Norman pulls up next to Tiger and
Speaker 1: both in the same car, and Norman's with his wife.
Speaker 1: Norman's waving a Tiger and Tiger's got that tunnel vision.
Speaker 1: He knows Norman's there and he will not acknowledge him
Speaker 1: and waved back. That's I mean, you get that's an
Speaker 1: entire book. That one moment right like that, that tells
Speaker 1: you so much. And it's uh so yeah, all those
Speaker 1: things are are going to be fun. Part of this
Speaker 1: is what I'm typing. But he says a lot about
Speaker 1: Tiger too, you know how how about you know, so Norman,
Speaker 1: of course did not one of the nineties six Masters,
Speaker 1: and Faldo did, and how would and now Tiger wins
Speaker 1: nine and falder drapes that coat on on Tiger Woods.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's never been a changing of the guard
Speaker 1: to golf more pointnant than than that. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, these super billionaires, you know, why
Speaker 1: can't they all get along? Why can't great Norman, Nick
Speaker 1: Faldo and Uhum and Tiger Woods get along? You know,
Speaker 1: Tiger loves Sevey and allot of the ball and you
Speaker 1: know various others from that generation. But he really had
Speaker 1: a thing about those two and Watson and I don't
Speaker 1: even think it like Ray Floyd that much. No Watson
Speaker 1: for sure. I mean, well, Johnny Miller had a great
Speaker 1: quote about this. Um. It's actually it was a high
Speaker 1: media's story I remember, and and Miller's like, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame guys. We don't really get along, you know.
Speaker 1: It's just He's like, we just it's just a different personality.
Speaker 1: He's like, we were not meant to mix. And I'm paraphrasing,
Speaker 1: but uh, there's something to you that. I mean, it
Speaker 1: takes such a I mean, Nick Price was a nice
Speaker 1: guy who made number one. There's there's been a few,
Speaker 1: but you look at you look the best play rs,
Speaker 1: they tend to be dicks. I mean, we like just go,
Speaker 1: I'm Ben home and Ben Hoden was a gentleman, but
Speaker 1: he was certainly frosty. I mean, there's a there's a
Speaker 1: personality type, like a foul though, like a Floyd Um,
Speaker 1: like a tiger. I mean, you know Scottie Shuffler a
Speaker 1: nice guy, but so the legends of they gave a
Speaker 1: lot of them were crusty. Man, they got an edge,
Speaker 1: and that's just maybe what it takes. Well, all right,
Speaker 1: we're coming up on an hour, it's the Witching hour.
Speaker 1: Any final thoughts for our listeners before we release them
Speaker 1: to um to get on with their lives after Thanksgiving? No,
Speaker 1: happy Thanksgiving to all, and uh always a lot of fun, Allen.
Speaker 1: I hope you're well the court sing in the new year.
Speaker 1: Let's end on a serious note. We are thankful for
Speaker 1: the listeners out there because it gives us a reason
Speaker 1: to get out of bed. Like this, I like your
Speaker 1: use of the plural Alan. Yes, well, we all have
Speaker 1: various family members at the very least, so Uh, but no,
Speaker 1: it's we do appreciate you guys tuning in and and
Speaker 1: keeping this thing going. So we will be back for
Speaker 1: another Sunday Fire Drill. It'll be the conclusion of the
Speaker 1: hero World Challenge, will be a lot to chew on,
Speaker 1: and uh maybe we'll be more Corey Paven cameos. You
Speaker 1: never know what you're gonna get on Fire Drill. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go buy a Cleveland set of bosses right now. Alan,
Speaker 1: If if you do get Ari Fleisher, could you ask
Speaker 1: him if he's related to the late Bruce Slisher, a
Speaker 1: great U s Amitar champion and a great and a
Speaker 1: great senior player from yesteryear and really a terrific guy.
Speaker 1: That'll be my opening gambit. See hey, alright, I know
Speaker 1: this is I'm writing a book, but before that, are
Speaker 1: you related to Bruce? I mean, yeah, we're all related somehow. Michael,
Speaker 1: you know if we're gonna get metaphysical here during the
Speaker 1: holiday season. But thanks everybody for listening and making this
Speaker 1: a thing. And Michael and Allen, thank you both for
Speaker 1: all you have done for me and this podcast. That's it.
Speaker 1: I hate to be serious, but it's okay, right, you
Speaker 1: can you can be sappy. It's that time of year.
Speaker 1: So all right, this has been another fire drill. I'm
Speaker 1: alan ship knuck. That was right, friends, Michael bam Rigger.
Speaker 1: We will do it again next week. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: That's the end. I've been big and I played to win,
Speaker 1: made a fortune within my ship game, and I ran
Speaker 1: the table, never thought I could fall. Then the winter
Speaker 1: time hit me like a cannon ball, and now I
Speaker 1: can't shake this losing the street. Every road I take
Speaker 1: is a dead end street. I got thoughts in my head.
Speaker 1: Can't get him out, trying not to think what I'm
Speaker 1: thinking about about, got tho in my head. I can't
Speaker 1: get him out, trying not to think what I'm thinking
Speaker 1: about