1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,980 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,710 --> 00:00:14,530 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 3 00:00:14,570 --> 00:00:17,210 Speaker 2: is Robert Lamb, and I'm coming to you on location 4 00:00:17,470 --> 00:00:22,050 Speaker 2: from the new headquarters of the Amphibian Foundation here in Decatur, Georgia. 5 00:00:22,310 --> 00:00:26,549 Speaker 2: And I'm here with the executive director, Mark Bandica, to 6 00:00:26,590 --> 00:00:28,930 Speaker 2: tell us all about it. Mark, thanks for coming back 7 00:00:28,990 --> 00:00:30,610 Speaker 2: on the show. You've been on a couple of times, 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 2: at least a couple of times before. And thanks for 9 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 2: inviting us physically into the new space. 10 00:00:36,700 --> 00:00:38,380 Speaker 3: It's my pleasure. I'm happy to be here. 11 00:00:39,229 --> 00:00:42,650 Speaker 2: Before we get into the work that goes on here 12 00:00:42,870 --> 00:00:45,510 Speaker 2: and talk about some of the specimens that are here 13 00:00:45,550 --> 00:00:47,909 Speaker 2: in this location, um, let's just talk a little bit 14 00:00:47,930 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 2: about venom, uh, just to break it down like brass 15 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 2: tacks right here at the beginning. Uh, can you remind 16 00:00:54,340 --> 00:00:58,820 Speaker 2: our audience the difference between a venom and a poison 17 00:00:58,980 --> 00:01:00,620 Speaker 2: when we're talking about organisms? 18 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,250 Speaker 3: Oh, sure. Um, this is an appropriate place to have 19 00:01:04,310 --> 00:01:09,980 Speaker 3: that discussion. Uh, It's a complicated answer because they're both toxins. 20 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,420 Speaker 3: And in some cases, there are poisons that are also venom. 21 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:18,670 Speaker 3: So in the herpetological field, the distinction is between the delivery. 22 00:01:19,350 --> 00:01:23,910 Speaker 3: So poisons, like a frog, they don't have a target. 23 00:01:24,050 --> 00:01:26,649 Speaker 3: The animal's poisonous. You shouldn't touch it or rub it 24 00:01:26,690 --> 00:01:29,929 Speaker 3: in your eyes or anything like that. Venom has to 25 00:01:29,950 --> 00:01:33,740 Speaker 3: be delivered by an apparatus called We're in the venom lab, 26 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,059 Speaker 3: so we're in a classroom with fangs, and fangs are 27 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,130 Speaker 3: the mode of delivery for these reptiles. So has that helped? 28 00:01:41,170 --> 00:01:43,569 Speaker 3: Because there's just a lot more detail that I could 29 00:01:43,590 --> 00:01:44,030 Speaker 3: go into. 30 00:01:44,490 --> 00:01:47,149 Speaker 2: Right. So like a poisonous creature would be one where 31 00:01:47,410 --> 00:01:51,170 Speaker 2: you would get the toxin by biting or consuming that 32 00:01:51,610 --> 00:01:55,830 Speaker 2: organism or, I don't know, perhaps touching it. But for 33 00:01:55,850 --> 00:01:58,470 Speaker 2: it to be a venom, it has to be injected 34 00:01:58,490 --> 00:02:01,750 Speaker 2: or applied, with the best example being the fangs of 35 00:02:01,790 --> 00:02:02,690 Speaker 2: a serpent. Sure. 36 00:02:02,830 --> 00:02:03,590 Speaker 3: Or a stinger. 37 00:02:03,890 --> 00:02:04,250 Speaker 2: Okay. 38 00:02:04,370 --> 00:02:05,890 Speaker 3: Those types of delivery mechanisms. 39 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 2: All right. Something that's like, to compare it to human technology, 40 00:02:09,060 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 2: like an injection needle sort of scenario. Right. 41 00:02:12,180 --> 00:02:14,300 Speaker 3: And it's more like the animal's like, I'm doing this 42 00:02:14,340 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 3: to you, whereas the poison is not targeted. It's just 43 00:02:17,340 --> 00:02:18,620 Speaker 3: the animal is poisonous. 44 00:02:19,260 --> 00:02:23,340 Speaker 2: Gotcha, gotcha. So getting back into the venom lab then, 45 00:02:23,940 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: what sort of work goes on here? Why do you 46 00:02:25,740 --> 00:02:29,700 Speaker 2: need to have a specialized venom lab separate from the 47 00:02:29,820 --> 00:02:32,620 Speaker 2: other specimen rooms in the facility here? 48 00:02:33,419 --> 00:02:36,340 Speaker 3: Well, a lot of extra precaution has to go to 49 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:41,060 Speaker 3: maintaining these animals. These animals are very dangerous, if not deadly. 50 00:02:41,930 --> 00:02:46,330 Speaker 3: So that's the main reason that they're separated. But the 51 00:02:46,350 --> 00:02:50,570 Speaker 3: reason why we work with these species is it kind 52 00:02:50,590 --> 00:02:53,060 Speaker 3: of stems from an earlier time I talked with you, 53 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 3: which was about vilified reptiles, which when we started the 54 00:02:57,180 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 3: Amphibian Foundation, which was 10 years ago now, we just 55 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,690 Speaker 3: started getting a lot of hate calls about copperheads. And 56 00:03:05,710 --> 00:03:08,210 Speaker 3: they're not even an amphibian. So I'm like, wow, people 57 00:03:08,350 --> 00:03:13,140 Speaker 3: hate these snakes so much that they're, complaining about them 58 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 3: to us. And so I was getting all these calls. 59 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,899 Speaker 3: By the time we had 30 calls, I'd said this 60 00:03:18,980 --> 00:03:23,500 Speaker 3: on your show, but only two of them were actually copperheads. 61 00:03:23,980 --> 00:03:27,490 Speaker 3: The rest of these copperhead calls were just other snakes 62 00:03:27,540 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 3: that people were killing or just hating, thinking they were 63 00:03:31,030 --> 00:03:35,110 Speaker 3: a copperhead. And so my inclination was like, we got 64 00:03:35,130 --> 00:03:37,490 Speaker 3: to do something about this. So we started doing a 65 00:03:37,650 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 3: little bit of copperhead advocacy. with kids because they're not 66 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 3: scared of copperheads until their parents teach them to be. 67 00:03:45,860 --> 00:03:49,380 Speaker 3: And we got a lot of support from schools that 68 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,340 Speaker 3: would let us bring copperheads because they're in Atlanta and 69 00:03:53,460 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 3: kids should know what they look like. And at the 70 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,890 Speaker 3: very least, if we can teach kids what a copperhead 71 00:03:59,970 --> 00:04:02,850 Speaker 3: actually looks like, we're doing a great service and less 72 00:04:02,930 --> 00:04:06,190 Speaker 3: snakes will be killed. That's why we started. And it 73 00:04:06,230 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 3: has grown into what we're sitting here now, We have 74 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 3: a Copperhead hotline. We have this venom lab to support 75 00:04:14,460 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 3: venom programs where we train people to work safely with snakes. 76 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,780 Speaker 3: We work in the field. We're working with amphibians, but 77 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,380 Speaker 3: there are a lot of venomous snakes out in those habitats. 78 00:04:26,820 --> 00:04:31,190 Speaker 3: And our staff are professional, competent, and not fear-based with 79 00:04:31,230 --> 00:04:36,660 Speaker 3: how they handle these things. And like, it's the... It's 80 00:04:36,700 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 3: the hatred that really drew me into actually doing something. 81 00:04:40,220 --> 00:04:44,380 Speaker 3: I was like, I've never witnessed an animal so despised. 82 00:04:44,779 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 3: So we've actually leaned very heavily into elevating despised species. 83 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,380 Speaker 3: That's what we talked about as well. And that has 84 00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:58,430 Speaker 3: continued to develop. And so this lab is the newest 85 00:04:58,850 --> 00:05:01,989 Speaker 3: incarnation of that. Awesome. 86 00:05:02,110 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: So coming back to copperhead identifications, so in your experience 87 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,580 Speaker 2: are people generally kind of bad at identifying copperheads and, 88 00:05:11,130 --> 00:05:13,230 Speaker 2: and what, like how does one identify a copperhead? Like 89 00:05:13,250 --> 00:05:16,170 Speaker 2: what are like the key signature, um, physical traits? 90 00:05:16,830 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 3: Um, thank you for that. And, and copperheads are brown 91 00:05:20,860 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 3: snake and there are other brown snakes and that's similar 92 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,330 Speaker 3: enough for a lot of people, you know, um, We, 93 00:05:27,390 --> 00:05:30,970 Speaker 3: when we give copperhead workshops, we can generally attract a 94 00:05:31,010 --> 00:05:33,010 Speaker 3: lot of people who want to see a copperhead and 95 00:05:33,060 --> 00:05:37,180 Speaker 3: learn about them. We hand out Hershey's Kisses because that's 96 00:05:37,460 --> 00:05:40,780 Speaker 3: the only thing. There's a pattern in their sides that 97 00:05:40,820 --> 00:05:43,860 Speaker 3: looks like a Hershey's Kiss. But other than that, you 98 00:05:43,900 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 3: really have to just know what a copperhead looks like. 99 00:05:46,500 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 3: There's no rule of thumb that you can apply to 100 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,420 Speaker 3: figure it out. So that's why we try to teach 101 00:05:52,460 --> 00:05:55,859 Speaker 3: people because a lot of harmless snakes are being killed 102 00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:01,900 Speaker 3: and Copperheads are notorious, but there's only been one confirmed 103 00:06:01,980 --> 00:06:05,540 Speaker 3: fatality from a copperhead bite, and that usually surprises people. 104 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,460 Speaker 3: It's not a particularly toxic species. 105 00:06:09,339 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 2: Just speaking of Georgia reptiles, where does it rank in 106 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: its toxicity there? 107 00:06:17,940 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 3: Let me put it this way. If I had to 108 00:06:19,580 --> 00:06:23,190 Speaker 3: be bit by anything in this room, I'd rather be 109 00:06:23,230 --> 00:06:24,700 Speaker 3: bit by a copperhead. Okay. 110 00:06:24,930 --> 00:06:31,710 Speaker 2: Okay. Now, you mentioned handling of venomous snakes and reptiles. 111 00:06:32,310 --> 00:06:35,740 Speaker 2: And I know that you're engaged in the training and 112 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,020 Speaker 2: certification of people to deal with these. What are some 113 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:43,500 Speaker 2: of the standards for how one handles these animals professionally? 114 00:06:43,740 --> 00:06:45,980 Speaker 2: What sort of protocols have to be in place? Is 115 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,890 Speaker 2: there special equipment compared to equipment you would use with 116 00:06:50,050 --> 00:06:50,650 Speaker 2: other herps? 117 00:06:51,260 --> 00:06:55,090 Speaker 3: We train people to work with regular herps using this 118 00:06:55,170 --> 00:07:01,529 Speaker 3: equipment first. And there's nothing fancy, but we, the program 119 00:07:01,570 --> 00:07:05,970 Speaker 3: that we were trained in, it's originally from the Rattlesnake Conservancy. 120 00:07:06,370 --> 00:07:09,170 Speaker 3: It's a hundred percent safe. So no one's ever been 121 00:07:09,210 --> 00:07:12,940 Speaker 3: bitten using these protocols. So we feel very confident about that. 122 00:07:13,660 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 3: It just really involves, you don't handle, actually handle these snakes. 123 00:07:18,340 --> 00:07:21,170 Speaker 3: You don't, put your parts near the bitey parts of 124 00:07:21,250 --> 00:07:24,790 Speaker 3: any of these guys. And so there is equipment. There 125 00:07:24,870 --> 00:07:28,870 Speaker 3: are mostly hooks, but there's buckets and tongs and things 126 00:07:28,910 --> 00:07:31,970 Speaker 3: like that. And so these snakes were all cared for. 127 00:07:32,050 --> 00:07:34,370 Speaker 3: None of them have ever been actually handled. 128 00:07:36,070 --> 00:07:41,010 Speaker 2: Now, the various specimens or guests here in this room, 129 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:43,580 Speaker 2: can you tell me a little bit about what we're 130 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 2: looking at here? Like how many... like how many Georgia 131 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 2: species are here versus, you know, invasive species in Georgia 132 00:07:52,900 --> 00:07:54,980 Speaker 2: or just, you know, any that just come from very 133 00:07:55,060 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 2: far afield. Just kind of curious what the diversity in 134 00:07:57,740 --> 00:07:58,620 Speaker 2: the room is. Yeah. 135 00:07:58,920 --> 00:07:59,300 Speaker 3: Thank you. 136 00:07:59,360 --> 00:07:59,580 Speaker 2: Yeah. 137 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:01,380 Speaker 3: The largely natives. 138 00:08:01,540 --> 00:08:01,740 Speaker 1: Okay. 139 00:08:01,780 --> 00:08:07,010 Speaker 3: So Georgia has amazing native venomous snakes. So we have 140 00:08:07,530 --> 00:08:13,030 Speaker 3: Eastern Diamondback rattlesnakes. That's the largest rattlesnake that exists here 141 00:08:13,070 --> 00:08:17,530 Speaker 3: in Georgia. I should mention that highly threatened species as well. 142 00:08:18,330 --> 00:08:22,910 Speaker 3: We have timber rattlesnakes here, another native species that did 143 00:08:22,950 --> 00:08:27,450 Speaker 3: not natively historically occur in Atlanta, but they've been pushed out. 144 00:08:28,030 --> 00:08:33,170 Speaker 3: And then we have a cottonmouth, another notorious species, two copperheads. 145 00:08:34,420 --> 00:08:37,900 Speaker 3: And then we have a non-native here. We have a 146 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 3: western diamondback. It's the same antivenin as an eastern diamondback, 147 00:08:42,900 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 3: so there's no risk there. Then we have some non-native 148 00:08:46,580 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 3: beaded lizards down below, and they're very charming. 149 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 2: Okay, like Mexican beaded lizards? Yes. Okay. 150 00:08:54,130 --> 00:08:56,929 Speaker 3: And we have a false water cobra, which is a 151 00:08:57,150 --> 00:09:00,310 Speaker 3: colubrid snake, not typically a venomous snake, but it's rear 152 00:09:00,370 --> 00:09:06,250 Speaker 3: fanged venomous. And so it's not necessarily very dangerous, but 153 00:09:06,270 --> 00:09:07,340 Speaker 3: we treat it as venomous. 154 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:08,420 Speaker 2: Rear fanged, you said? 155 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. 156 00:09:08,870 --> 00:09:11,390 Speaker 2: Okay. So what's going on there? I don't think I'm 157 00:09:11,410 --> 00:09:13,810 Speaker 2: familiar with the real fang layout. Allow me. 158 00:09:13,929 --> 00:09:18,349 Speaker 3: Fangs are really awesome. There are mostly three types of fangs. 159 00:09:19,010 --> 00:09:23,460 Speaker 3: There's the selenoglyph, which is a rotating fang. Most of 160 00:09:23,510 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 3: these animals have a rotating fang. So they sit in 161 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,060 Speaker 3: the roof of the mouth and they come out in 162 00:09:30,100 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 3: a millisecond. And that all happens in the strike. So 163 00:09:34,580 --> 00:09:37,620 Speaker 3: they move fast. And that allows these snakes to eat 164 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:42,420 Speaker 3: enormous things. There are fixed fangs snakes, protoglyphs. They're like 165 00:09:42,460 --> 00:09:45,500 Speaker 3: a cobra. They have fixed fangs on the front. And 166 00:09:45,580 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 3: so they envenomate that way. And they're just part of 167 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 3: the skull. So they poke you with those suckers. 168 00:09:51,300 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 2: So comparing it to vampire fiction. In some vampire movies, 169 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,730 Speaker 2: the fangs are always there. Yeah, yeah. Because they kind 170 00:09:56,730 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 2: of like, stick out whenever they need to feed. Right, 171 00:09:58,780 --> 00:10:02,459 Speaker 2: but they never rotate, do they, when they're vampires? That's true. Yeah. 172 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,180 Speaker 3: So, maybe the other one is the final one. The 173 00:10:05,220 --> 00:10:09,820 Speaker 3: epistoglyph was rear fanged. Some colubrid snakes have an extra, 174 00:10:10,250 --> 00:10:13,190 Speaker 3: like most colubrid snakes, all their teeth are identical in 175 00:10:13,350 --> 00:10:17,550 Speaker 3: shape as the size changes. And rear fangs have a 176 00:10:17,710 --> 00:10:20,770 Speaker 3: big tooth in the back that is enabled to inject 177 00:10:20,850 --> 00:10:24,260 Speaker 3: some venom through a rudimentary gland. It's not like a 178 00:10:24,290 --> 00:10:27,380 Speaker 3: hypodermic needle. It's like they punch a hole in you 179 00:10:27,420 --> 00:10:30,559 Speaker 3: and then their saliva, their venom gets in. And so 180 00:10:30,580 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 3: there are famously lethal rear fang snakes like a boomslang, 181 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,410 Speaker 3: which is not in a family with other venomous snakes 182 00:10:38,470 --> 00:10:42,110 Speaker 3: like these guys. They're in the regular snake family, but 183 00:10:42,170 --> 00:10:43,170 Speaker 3: they have venom. 184 00:10:43,770 --> 00:10:47,150 Speaker 2: Wow. So is it symmetrical? Is there one rear fang 185 00:10:47,210 --> 00:10:47,870 Speaker 2: on each side? 186 00:10:47,890 --> 00:10:47,970 Speaker 1: Okay. 187 00:10:48,190 --> 00:10:51,580 Speaker 2: Yeah. And then it sounds the way you're describing, thinking 188 00:10:51,620 --> 00:10:53,860 Speaker 2: back to some episodes that Joe and I did about 189 00:10:54,860 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: the Gila monster. Is the rear fang kind of more 190 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:02,420 Speaker 2: akin to what beaded lizards have, where it's about sort 191 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:06,970 Speaker 2: of like chewing the venom into the target? 192 00:11:07,470 --> 00:11:07,710 Speaker 3: No. 193 00:11:08,010 --> 00:11:08,530 Speaker 2: Okay. 194 00:11:08,850 --> 00:11:12,230 Speaker 3: It's more like that than the other snakes. Okay. But 195 00:11:12,670 --> 00:11:15,770 Speaker 3: it's more like a snake. They don't have to chew 196 00:11:15,809 --> 00:11:20,370 Speaker 3: it in, though they sometimes do. And there are a 197 00:11:20,410 --> 00:11:22,650 Speaker 3: lot of snakes that are rear fanged that we're just 198 00:11:22,700 --> 00:11:25,380 Speaker 3: coming around to realizing they have some type of venom. 199 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,260 Speaker 3: Like a lot of normal garter snakes, for example. Apparently 200 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,939 Speaker 3: ringneck snakes, very common tiny species here, rear fanged. If 201 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,380 Speaker 3: they were big enough to bite us, they would be 202 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 3: a problem. But they're not. 203 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 2: So we've just been slow to realize it based on 204 00:11:40,620 --> 00:11:43,339 Speaker 2: human interactions with the species and their venom? 205 00:11:44,300 --> 00:11:46,990 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And it's the same with lizards. When I 206 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,130 Speaker 3: took herpetology, Gila monsters, beaded lizards were the only two 207 00:11:51,490 --> 00:11:55,010 Speaker 3: venomous species of lizard. But now it turns out there's 208 00:11:55,050 --> 00:11:58,790 Speaker 3: a lot more venomous lizards. Monitor lizards have, we thought 209 00:11:58,830 --> 00:12:01,569 Speaker 3: it was just really nasty saliva at first, but now 210 00:12:01,590 --> 00:12:04,990 Speaker 3: we're realizing it's actually venom as well. So as venom 211 00:12:05,050 --> 00:12:07,700 Speaker 3: is a lot more common, in the reptile world than 212 00:12:07,900 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 3: originally thought. And that's kind of cool too. 213 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 2: Now, I keep looking over your shoulder here. I don't 214 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,870 Speaker 2: want to do too much referring to things that, uh, 215 00:12:14,990 --> 00:12:18,309 Speaker 2: that viewers, uh, watching on Netflix can't see, but there is, 216 00:12:18,730 --> 00:12:21,950 Speaker 2: there's a tank right behind you from, and, uh, somebody 217 00:12:22,010 --> 00:12:24,010 Speaker 2: keeps looking out at me. There's a snake in there 218 00:12:24,050 --> 00:12:25,990 Speaker 2: that keeps kind of peeking over. Top? Yes. 219 00:12:26,530 --> 00:12:27,170 Speaker 3: That's Buzz. 220 00:12:27,510 --> 00:12:27,809 Speaker 2: Oh yeah? 221 00:12:28,050 --> 00:12:29,390 Speaker 3: That's a timber rattlesnake. 222 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:31,580 Speaker 2: Oh, okay. Yeah. He's poking up right now. 223 00:12:31,660 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 3: He's one of our younger snakes. He's very curious. 224 00:12:33,620 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: Okay. 225 00:12:33,980 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 3: Okay. 226 00:12:35,030 --> 00:12:36,570 Speaker 2: So the younger ones tend to be a little more 227 00:12:36,630 --> 00:12:38,290 Speaker 2: curious and a little more active. 228 00:12:38,450 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 3: At least in here. Perhaps, yeah. 229 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:46,199 Speaker 2: And how long have the specimens been physically in this 230 00:12:46,260 --> 00:12:46,700 Speaker 2: new room? 231 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,179 Speaker 3: The room is very new. So, I mean, we're talking weeks. 232 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,579 Speaker 2: Okay. So are they still getting used to it? 233 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:55,860 Speaker 3: I would say in the last week or two, they've 234 00:12:55,940 --> 00:12:58,819 Speaker 3: really started to settle in. And it's nice to see. 235 00:12:59,020 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 3: They all seem like they really like their new homes. 236 00:13:02,450 --> 00:13:04,750 Speaker 2: Now, we've talked about some of the snakes that have 237 00:13:05,330 --> 00:13:09,030 Speaker 2: Georgia roots. Now, the ones that have come from much 238 00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:11,950 Speaker 2: farther afield, like the beaded lizards, how did they wind 239 00:13:12,010 --> 00:13:12,309 Speaker 2: up here? 240 00:13:13,090 --> 00:13:16,950 Speaker 3: Oh, that's a great story, too, because when we started, 241 00:13:17,750 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 3: the zoological community was very supportive. Those were actually donated 242 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,380 Speaker 3: by the Chicago Zoo as babies. So they've grown up here, 243 00:13:26,540 --> 00:13:28,739 Speaker 3: and they're pretty rare. I don't think they're easy to 244 00:13:28,780 --> 00:13:31,599 Speaker 3: get your hands on, but like the A lot of 245 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 3: our ambassador animals have been donated from zoos for that purpose. 246 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 3: We're grateful for that. 247 00:13:39,350 --> 00:13:43,610 Speaker 2: I've heard of different organizations ending up with animals because 248 00:13:44,170 --> 00:13:46,230 Speaker 2: someone gets caught in an airport with one. Do you 249 00:13:46,250 --> 00:13:48,569 Speaker 2: have any origin stories like that? 250 00:13:48,809 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife will call us 251 00:13:52,780 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 3: with stuff that winds up here in Atlanta. Whenever it's 252 00:13:57,380 --> 00:13:59,990 Speaker 3: an amphibian, of course, but then They've reached out for 253 00:14:00,050 --> 00:14:03,770 Speaker 3: reptiles too. Sometimes the stories aren't just heartbreaking, so we 254 00:14:03,790 --> 00:14:06,990 Speaker 3: try to do whatever we can. We're pretty limited on space. 255 00:14:07,870 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 3: But we do have some animals here as part of confiscations. Okay. 256 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 2: And you already touched on some of the species here 257 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 2: that are threatened or endangered in some way. The Georgia 258 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 2: species that are in that category, is it all habitat loss? 259 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,239 Speaker 2: I mean, is climate change in the scenario? What are 260 00:14:28,260 --> 00:14:29,460 Speaker 2: some of the factors involved here? 261 00:14:30,060 --> 00:14:34,250 Speaker 3: My mind immediately goes to the eastern diamondback. It's a 262 00:14:34,310 --> 00:14:39,310 Speaker 3: species that's worthy of consideration for listing as an endangered species. 263 00:14:39,790 --> 00:14:43,510 Speaker 3: There are areas where it is really bumming, but it's 264 00:14:44,010 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 3: just so hated. It becomes political to try to get 265 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 3: it listed because people hate it so much they don't 266 00:14:49,740 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 3: want to protect it. But it's been persecuted in the 267 00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:56,140 Speaker 3: southeast for. 268 00:14:57,690 --> 00:14:59,670 Speaker 3: I don't know, I won't say hundreds of years. We're 269 00:14:59,710 --> 00:15:03,170 Speaker 3: talking like there are rattlesnake roundups where the whole thing 270 00:15:03,210 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 3: is about killing as many as you possibly can. So 271 00:15:06,010 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 3: it's pretty bleak. When a species has a festival where 272 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 3: you kill them after it, that's a bad situation from 273 00:15:13,460 --> 00:15:18,850 Speaker 3: a conservation standpoint. But our snakes, we loan them to 274 00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:23,260 Speaker 3: DNR every year to participate in a no-kill event. rattlesnake 275 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,910 Speaker 3: festival down in source south georgia which is a newer 276 00:15:27,050 --> 00:15:31,930 Speaker 3: alternative to like killing them um so so we're happy 277 00:15:31,970 --> 00:15:33,450 Speaker 3: to support that. 278 00:15:33,610 --> 00:15:35,570 Speaker 2: So what are they they just catch them and show 279 00:15:35,590 --> 00:15:37,290 Speaker 2: them off and then release it like a catch and 280 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 2: release sort of scenario i think. 281 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,100 Speaker 3: For the festival it's all captive snakes that are brought 282 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:43,940 Speaker 3: from collections such as this. 283 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,180 Speaker 2: Okay that makes a lot of sense yeah yeah and. 284 00:15:46,140 --> 00:15:49,610 Speaker 3: So um when we can we accompany our snakes there 285 00:15:49,630 --> 00:15:53,420 Speaker 3: and try to participate and Because, you know, it's important 286 00:15:53,460 --> 00:15:57,780 Speaker 3: for the township or the county to have their festival, too, 287 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,620 Speaker 3: because it's been a huge source of attraction and revenue. 288 00:16:01,250 --> 00:16:04,370 Speaker 3: And so we're trying to make that be successful without 289 00:16:04,570 --> 00:16:05,590 Speaker 3: harming any animals. 290 00:16:06,330 --> 00:16:19,479 Speaker 2: Excellent. I want to come back to Venom a little 291 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,550 Speaker 2: bit here, because Venom, I think listeners and viewers will 292 00:16:23,570 --> 00:16:27,550 Speaker 2: find this really fascinating, really getting into what venom is. 293 00:16:27,580 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 2: I think it's easy to just sort of think of 294 00:16:30,020 --> 00:16:33,260 Speaker 2: snake venom and you just think of it as the whole. 295 00:16:33,380 --> 00:16:36,620 Speaker 2: You think of it almost as the finished product without 296 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 2: thinking about the fact that in many cases, these are 297 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 2: complex cocktails composed of different sorts of components that do 298 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,990 Speaker 2: different things and attack different systems. In the body of 299 00:16:49,030 --> 00:16:51,370 Speaker 2: a target. Can you walk us through some of the 300 00:16:51,410 --> 00:16:51,950 Speaker 2: basics here? 301 00:16:52,630 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can walk you through the basics. Because you're right. 302 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:03,359 Speaker 3: It's a cocktail in every species, I think, without exception. 303 00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:09,430 Speaker 3: And as the research expands, it varies not just by species, 304 00:17:09,530 --> 00:17:13,580 Speaker 3: but by population. You know, certain northern timber rattlesnake venom 305 00:17:13,630 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 3: is very different from the timber rattlesnake venom here in Georgia. 306 00:17:18,140 --> 00:17:21,780 Speaker 3: And it's related to a bunch of different factors, including 307 00:17:22,220 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 3: what they're going after for prey. It's very interesting. But 308 00:17:26,100 --> 00:17:30,300 Speaker 3: by and large, the broadest strokes is there are different compounds, 309 00:17:30,420 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 3: peptides that impact different things. Like vipers, like the majority 310 00:17:36,020 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 3: of the snakes in this room are pit vipers. They 311 00:17:38,660 --> 00:17:44,820 Speaker 3: have a heat pit. and are vipers, they're hemotoxic or 312 00:17:45,020 --> 00:17:49,820 Speaker 3: their venom attacks tissue. It just kind of destroys everything 313 00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 3: it comes in contact with. That'll hold true for just 314 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,380 Speaker 3: about every Georgia snake in the broadest of strokes, except 315 00:17:58,790 --> 00:18:01,510 Speaker 3: for the coral snake. We don't have any coral snakes 316 00:18:01,550 --> 00:18:05,820 Speaker 3: in this room, but they're an elapid snake. more closely 317 00:18:05,859 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 3: related to a cobra, that venom acts very differently. It's 318 00:18:09,260 --> 00:18:12,810 Speaker 3: delivered differently with those front fixed bangs, and then it 319 00:18:12,970 --> 00:18:16,510 Speaker 3: acts differently because it just basically attacks the central nervous system, 320 00:18:17,290 --> 00:18:20,790 Speaker 3: and so you just shut down. They're both pretty scary. 321 00:18:21,710 --> 00:18:24,670 Speaker 2: Now, you do not have any spitting cobras in here. 322 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,700 Speaker 2: Those are probably too far afield, I'm thinking, and then 323 00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 2: that would probably, you would have to have extra equipment 324 00:18:32,460 --> 00:18:33,300 Speaker 2: on hand to deal with those. 325 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:39,090 Speaker 3: That sounds terrifying. Yeah, I've never worked with a spitting cobra. 326 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,410 Speaker 2: So at this point, we've talked about, of course, venomous snakes. 327 00:18:43,810 --> 00:18:47,169 Speaker 2: We've talked a little bit about venomous lizards. But of course, 328 00:18:47,190 --> 00:18:52,590 Speaker 2: you're the Amphibian Foundation. Do we have any truly venomous amphibians? 329 00:18:53,390 --> 00:18:53,810 Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. 330 00:18:54,250 --> 00:18:54,510 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah? 331 00:18:54,830 --> 00:18:59,030 Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. So amphibians are famous for their poison, as 332 00:18:59,090 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 3: they should be. And I'd just like to mention that 333 00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:04,620 Speaker 3: there are frogs that are way more lethal than any 334 00:19:04,660 --> 00:19:09,850 Speaker 3: of the animals in this room. But there are venomous 335 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,050 Speaker 3: amphibians as well. And I'd like to highlight that there 336 00:19:13,090 --> 00:19:16,449 Speaker 3: are amphibians that are venomous and poisonous. So that just 337 00:19:16,570 --> 00:19:17,649 Speaker 3: makes it really cool. 338 00:19:18,630 --> 00:19:18,910 Speaker 2: Right? 339 00:19:19,090 --> 00:19:22,670 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. And so some of that work is also 340 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 3: pretty recent. You know, the venomous frogs have been discovered recently. 341 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,500 Speaker 3: So there are obviously poisonous frogs, but there are frogs 342 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 3: with spines on their skulls and they bash them into 343 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:39,180 Speaker 3: you and inject their venom. That's venom right there. But 344 00:19:39,220 --> 00:19:45,189 Speaker 3: my favorite example is from this Plurideales newt. It's the 345 00:19:45,350 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 3: Iberian rib newt. And so we've known that they've been pretty... toxic. 346 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,580 Speaker 3: You would not want to eat one of those. But 347 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 3: they can control and avert their ribs and skewer their 348 00:19:58,030 --> 00:20:00,450 Speaker 3: poison sacs and inject you. 349 00:20:01,170 --> 00:20:03,710 Speaker 2: Yes, okay. I do remember reading about these. Now, I 350 00:20:03,850 --> 00:20:07,070 Speaker 2: guess it's the fact that their ribs end up sticking 351 00:20:07,090 --> 00:20:11,139 Speaker 2: through their bodies to stab something that's trying to eat 352 00:20:11,180 --> 00:20:13,869 Speaker 2: them i guess i tend to i become distracted by 353 00:20:13,910 --> 00:20:16,570 Speaker 2: that sort of from our perspective grotesque fact i kind 354 00:20:16,590 --> 00:20:18,889 Speaker 2: of forget about the fact that they're pure like so 355 00:20:18,930 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 2: they're physically piercing their poison gland on the way. 356 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,820 Speaker 3: Their ribs are spiked at the end and have a 357 00:20:25,980 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 3: joint like a knee okay and they line up with 358 00:20:29,540 --> 00:20:34,610 Speaker 3: these visible poison sacks that they just puncture And they'll 359 00:20:34,690 --> 00:20:39,030 Speaker 3: avert them when they get stressed. You can see that 360 00:20:39,090 --> 00:20:41,650 Speaker 3: this is about to happen, you know, because their, their 361 00:20:41,690 --> 00:20:45,369 Speaker 3: poison sex could start to get pretty pointy. We have 362 00:20:45,410 --> 00:20:48,670 Speaker 3: a group here, but they're chill. So they've never elicited 363 00:20:48,690 --> 00:20:54,060 Speaker 3: that response, but I imagine wild plurigilies newts would, would 364 00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 3: respond like that. 365 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 2: So they would, they would, they would have this response 366 00:20:57,500 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 2: if something was like physically trying to eat it, like 367 00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 2: trying to like ingest it or chew it. Exactly. 368 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,250 Speaker 3: So, For example, toads have these huge poison glands on 369 00:21:07,290 --> 00:21:11,290 Speaker 3: their shoulders. They're really noxious and toxic. And they'll aim 370 00:21:11,310 --> 00:21:14,430 Speaker 3: them at a predator. They'll see the predator and they'll say, hey, 371 00:21:14,450 --> 00:21:17,149 Speaker 3: you're going to bite this first. And pleurodialys will do 372 00:21:17,170 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 3: a similar thing with their spikes. Like you're about to 373 00:21:19,670 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 3: get a mouthful of poison spikes if you keep going 374 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:23,660 Speaker 3: like that. Oh, wow. 375 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 2: Okay, so I can imagine how that one kind of 376 00:21:26,340 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 2: maybe evolves from the other. Yeah, yeah. 377 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 3: Okay. 378 00:21:29,460 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 2: Because I think if you were comparing it to a snake, 379 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,980 Speaker 2: you might be tempted to judge it as being a more, 380 00:21:34,460 --> 00:21:37,869 Speaker 2: I don't know, primitive venom delivery system since like a 381 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,490 Speaker 2: cobra doesn't have to like poke any bones out of 382 00:21:41,550 --> 00:21:42,090 Speaker 2: its body. 383 00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:46,850 Speaker 3: Right. Yes, that is also pretty fascinating that the newt 384 00:21:46,970 --> 00:21:49,830 Speaker 3: in some cases is willing to puncture its own skin, 385 00:21:49,850 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 3: you know, because there's got to be some pain involved 386 00:21:53,100 --> 00:21:53,380 Speaker 3: with that. 387 00:21:54,310 --> 00:21:56,530 Speaker 2: So tell us a little bit about the venomous training 388 00:21:56,550 --> 00:21:59,010 Speaker 2: and certification course that you do here. Like, what does 389 00:21:59,050 --> 00:22:01,570 Speaker 2: it consist of? And who is it for? Like, what 390 00:22:01,670 --> 00:22:04,490 Speaker 2: sorts of people, what sorts of professionals come in here 391 00:22:04,540 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 2: to take that? 392 00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 3: It's a course we offer every other month here. It's 393 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 3: based on the certification I mentioned earlier that's on the 394 00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:16,940 Speaker 3: Rattlesnake Conservancy's training. So they've trained us. And then we've 395 00:22:16,980 --> 00:22:23,270 Speaker 3: since built this program here, 100% safe. And so it's 396 00:22:23,369 --> 00:22:28,500 Speaker 3: built around... this wonderful collection of serpents and a world-class 397 00:22:28,619 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 3: venom team that we have here, um, that have been 398 00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:35,780 Speaker 3: trained and just run a very tight ship. Um, and 399 00:22:35,859 --> 00:22:38,380 Speaker 3: so we have people cause we're in Atlanta. We track 400 00:22:38,420 --> 00:22:40,379 Speaker 3: people from all over the country. They come in. It's 401 00:22:40,940 --> 00:22:45,649 Speaker 3: very unique opportunity to take a weekend workshop. Uh, and 402 00:22:45,710 --> 00:22:49,470 Speaker 3: by the end they are able to safely bag and 403 00:22:49,530 --> 00:22:53,070 Speaker 3: bucket a venomous snake without using their hands. So, um, 404 00:22:53,310 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 3: it's a, course that is academic for the first day 405 00:22:57,330 --> 00:23:00,450 Speaker 3: and then practical for the second day. Oh, wow. 406 00:23:01,350 --> 00:23:03,169 Speaker 2: And so do the, do the people taking it, do 407 00:23:03,210 --> 00:23:06,010 Speaker 2: they tend to be like, are they just herp enthusiasts 408 00:23:06,170 --> 00:23:08,510 Speaker 2: or are they like professionals who are working in some 409 00:23:08,550 --> 00:23:11,609 Speaker 2: sort of an environment where they, they need to potentially 410 00:23:11,730 --> 00:23:14,470 Speaker 2: identify and or handle? a venomous creature? 411 00:23:14,490 --> 00:23:18,619 Speaker 3: I think you just outlined the majority. The professionals are 412 00:23:18,700 --> 00:23:23,210 Speaker 3: either academic or like actual agencies, DNR or U.S. Fish 413 00:23:23,230 --> 00:23:26,550 Speaker 3: and Wildlife. And then We do get enthusiasts that want 414 00:23:26,570 --> 00:23:31,010 Speaker 3: to safely work with venomous snakes or want to know 415 00:23:31,070 --> 00:23:33,910 Speaker 3: how to handle themselves in the field when they encounter, 416 00:23:33,970 --> 00:23:35,990 Speaker 3: like if you're out in the field here in Georgia, 417 00:23:36,070 --> 00:23:38,130 Speaker 3: it's just a matter of time before you start seeing 418 00:23:38,670 --> 00:23:42,330 Speaker 3: venomous snakes and it's better to know how to respond. 419 00:23:43,030 --> 00:23:45,930 Speaker 3: So sometimes we get photographers who are out in nature 420 00:23:45,990 --> 00:23:48,580 Speaker 3: a lot and they don't want to have a fear-based 421 00:23:48,619 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 3: response so you can get some confidence. And I like 422 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,260 Speaker 3: to point out that the venomous snakes here some of 423 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,020 Speaker 3: the most polite snakes you could ever meet. They all 424 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 3: have some type of warning system, you know, cotton mouths. 425 00:24:02,540 --> 00:24:05,500 Speaker 3: They'll show you their cotton mouth. That's them saying, I 426 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,340 Speaker 3: don't want to bite you. You know what I mean? 427 00:24:07,380 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 3: The rattle is the same. How polite is that? Look, buddy, 428 00:24:11,260 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 3: I don't like how this is going. You know, you 429 00:24:13,700 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 3: can change it, your tune. You know, that would be 430 00:24:16,300 --> 00:24:18,659 Speaker 3: best for all of us. That's what I hear when 431 00:24:18,700 --> 00:24:21,659 Speaker 3: I hear the rattle, you know. And then even copperheads, 432 00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:24,619 Speaker 3: have an affinity for a dry bite. So they'll give 433 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,590 Speaker 3: you a warning, you know, that first one's free, you 434 00:24:27,609 --> 00:24:29,649 Speaker 3: know what I mean? But, you know, and so I 435 00:24:29,710 --> 00:24:32,210 Speaker 3: feel like as far as wildlife is concerned, that is 436 00:24:32,310 --> 00:24:33,090 Speaker 3: extremely polite. 437 00:24:33,950 --> 00:24:35,590 Speaker 2: Yeah. Because I guess at the end of the day, 438 00:24:35,630 --> 00:24:38,490 Speaker 2: like venom is expensive to them. Like it's, it's not 439 00:24:38,530 --> 00:24:41,429 Speaker 2: something they want to waste. Uh, if they, what have 440 00:24:41,450 --> 00:24:44,860 Speaker 2: they wasted now, then like they have to replenish the supply. 441 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 3: And, and the venom, is an important part of their 442 00:24:49,380 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 3: digestive system. So they really don't want to bite something 443 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:53,660 Speaker 3: they're not going to eat. 444 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,479 Speaker 2: And it's because, so the venom, when it's injected, like 445 00:24:58,540 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 2: it's helping to break down the prey with some of 446 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 2: these cocktails? 447 00:25:01,100 --> 00:25:05,700 Speaker 3: Yes, from the inside. And so you'll see that these 448 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 3: rotating fang snakes eat particularly large prey for their size, 449 00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:17,929 Speaker 3: and they have larger fangs. Um, and so they eat 450 00:25:17,970 --> 00:25:21,140 Speaker 3: less frequently and they eat very large things. And so 451 00:25:21,180 --> 00:25:25,139 Speaker 3: that the fangs injected and starts to digest from the inside, uh, 452 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 3: it enables them to process these huge, huge prey. Some 453 00:25:30,619 --> 00:25:34,260 Speaker 3: adult vipers eat annually, you know, they can get away 454 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,030 Speaker 3: with just eating once a year. It's kind of fascinating. 455 00:25:37,930 --> 00:25:39,790 Speaker 2: Now, this is, this is something that is, it's, it's 456 00:25:40,170 --> 00:25:42,550 Speaker 2: a complete no brainer. And, um, you know, but it's, 457 00:25:42,609 --> 00:25:45,590 Speaker 2: it's worth reminding everyone that of course the snake has 458 00:25:45,630 --> 00:25:48,350 Speaker 2: no limbs. it's not going to cut up its food 459 00:25:48,390 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 2: at all right it's not going to have a way 460 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 2: to like break down the food other than chemically right 461 00:25:53,619 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 2: so it has it has to eat everything whole right. 462 00:25:56,420 --> 00:26:00,820 Speaker 3: Yeah exactly no no chewing and no choice about it 463 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 3: either so just think about how difficult it is if 464 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,100 Speaker 3: you were a snake that had to eat something like 465 00:26:07,260 --> 00:26:09,700 Speaker 3: got no hands you just gotta go ahead and bite 466 00:26:09,740 --> 00:26:12,910 Speaker 3: that sucker You know, it's pretty risky when you think 467 00:26:12,950 --> 00:26:13,270 Speaker 3: about it. 468 00:26:13,550 --> 00:26:16,169 Speaker 2: Right, right. Because, yeah, I'm thinking that opens them up 469 00:26:16,250 --> 00:26:20,270 Speaker 2: to predation by any number of their natural predators, right? 470 00:26:20,390 --> 00:26:22,310 Speaker 2: Once while they're trying to consume something else. 471 00:26:22,990 --> 00:26:26,469 Speaker 3: That is when they were absolutely at their most vulnerable. 472 00:26:27,190 --> 00:26:29,530 Speaker 2: And at least here in Georgia, what are some of 473 00:26:29,550 --> 00:26:32,189 Speaker 2: the predators that are coming after these venomous snakes? What 474 00:26:32,230 --> 00:26:34,260 Speaker 2: are their enemies, aside from human beings, of course? 475 00:26:34,660 --> 00:26:38,230 Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, there are. things that'll um that'll eat venomous 476 00:26:38,250 --> 00:26:41,690 Speaker 3: snakes um yeah raptors will uh i think i think 477 00:26:42,570 --> 00:26:45,730 Speaker 3: most mammals i don't know how they would respond to 478 00:26:45,770 --> 00:26:49,330 Speaker 3: being envenomated probably probably not well i think a lot 479 00:26:49,369 --> 00:26:52,710 Speaker 3: of them have have learned to leave some of these 480 00:26:52,910 --> 00:26:57,010 Speaker 3: snakes alone you know through their warning mechanisms. 481 00:26:56,490 --> 00:26:58,340 Speaker 2: Right because that's the other side of the communication we 482 00:26:58,380 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 2: were talking. 483 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,940 Speaker 3: About yes because the These animals want to communicate that 484 00:27:03,020 --> 00:27:07,570 Speaker 3: before any altercation. And everybody gets away easy when they 485 00:27:08,910 --> 00:27:11,649 Speaker 3: try to kill them. And so they're trying to convey 486 00:27:11,690 --> 00:27:15,470 Speaker 3: that message as quickly as possible. I don't think raptors care, 487 00:27:15,510 --> 00:27:17,450 Speaker 3: but they've got to kill that thing quick. 488 00:27:18,650 --> 00:27:21,810 Speaker 2: Now, I have a question here. We were talking about 489 00:27:21,850 --> 00:27:24,389 Speaker 2: this before we recorded, but I wanted to ask it 490 00:27:24,430 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 2: anyway because I think a lot of listeners and viewers 491 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 2: might be wondering it as well. So we're in a 492 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:34,540 Speaker 2: venom lab. Are venomous snakes milked for anti-venom here? 493 00:27:35,740 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: No. 494 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:36,980 Speaker 2: Okay. 495 00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:40,340 Speaker 3: We do not put our hands on these snakes under 496 00:27:40,420 --> 00:27:45,530 Speaker 3: any circumstances. Occasionally for medical or vet checks, we'll tube them. 497 00:27:45,710 --> 00:27:47,650 Speaker 3: Are you familiar with tubing a snake? 498 00:27:47,710 --> 00:27:49,350 Speaker 2: No. Tell me about this. 499 00:27:49,790 --> 00:27:52,649 Speaker 3: We have a series of very rigid tubes here. And 500 00:27:52,730 --> 00:27:56,109 Speaker 3: if you coax a venomous snake into a tube and 501 00:27:56,210 --> 00:28:00,530 Speaker 3: hold it, it cannot turn around. It's physically impossible for 502 00:28:00,570 --> 00:28:02,490 Speaker 3: it to bite you when it's inside of a tube. 503 00:28:03,030 --> 00:28:05,470 Speaker 3: So we can do exams at least on the back 504 00:28:05,820 --> 00:28:08,340 Speaker 3: two thirds of a snake when it's in a tube 505 00:28:08,820 --> 00:28:12,460 Speaker 3: completely safely. Uh, so that's the only time we would 506 00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 3: do that. Um, Because it's possible to do every other 507 00:28:15,940 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 3: degree of husbandry and maintenance without using your hands. 508 00:28:19,820 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 2: Okay. 509 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 3: Okay. 510 00:28:20,820 --> 00:28:22,980 Speaker 2: So, yeah. So that sort of thing is going to 511 00:28:23,020 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 2: happen at other places. Now, do you have to keep 512 00:28:26,300 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 2: any anti-venom on hand here? Or is it one of 513 00:28:28,619 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 2: those things where with the right protocols, you just never 514 00:28:30,790 --> 00:28:31,850 Speaker 2: reach that step? 515 00:28:32,350 --> 00:28:36,270 Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad you asked. Because before, earlier today, I 516 00:28:36,290 --> 00:28:37,550 Speaker 3: was like, you know, I want to get some fresh 517 00:28:37,609 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 3: stats done. How many people have been killed by rattlesnake 518 00:28:42,420 --> 00:28:45,100 Speaker 3: envenomation in the last 10 years? I wanted to have 519 00:28:45,140 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 3: some fresh numbers. Answer is zero. Zero fatalities. There's antivenin 520 00:28:51,180 --> 00:28:54,900 Speaker 3: for every species in this room at every hospital because 521 00:28:54,960 --> 00:29:01,300 Speaker 3: it's common antivenin that is commonly produced now. And so 522 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 3: I know that the anti-venom trade and milking venomous snakes 523 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,620 Speaker 3: is a field of work, and there are labs that 524 00:29:09,660 --> 00:29:12,470 Speaker 3: do that kind of stuff, but not us. We're more 525 00:29:12,530 --> 00:29:18,969 Speaker 3: about trying to address public perception and having people be 526 00:29:19,030 --> 00:29:22,190 Speaker 3: able to be professional and competent working in the field 527 00:29:22,230 --> 00:29:25,820 Speaker 3: with venomous snakes as part of raising that public perception. 528 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,780 Speaker 3: We have more competent people out there able to identify 529 00:29:29,860 --> 00:29:33,260 Speaker 3: copper I should mention, we don't get nearly as many 530 00:29:33,420 --> 00:29:37,630 Speaker 3: misidentifications on the Copperhead hotline like I did at the beginning. 531 00:29:38,210 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 3: And that might be anecdotal evidence. that what we're doing 532 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,700 Speaker 3: is working. You know, I'd like to think it is. 533 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:52,940 Speaker 3: Thank you. 534 00:29:54,970 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 2: Now, you alluded to them already, but let's come back 535 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,420 Speaker 2: to Team Venom, the various folks that you depend on 536 00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:03,860 Speaker 2: here in the Venom lab. How many people are we talking? 537 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,140 Speaker 2: What sort of skill sets? Tell us about this crew. 538 00:30:07,300 --> 00:30:10,090 Speaker 3: It's a very special, very small crew. We have four 539 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,930 Speaker 3: people right now, and they're amazing. I mean, this program 540 00:30:13,990 --> 00:30:17,930 Speaker 3: is on their shoulders, their professionalism. It's taking a big 541 00:30:18,030 --> 00:30:23,110 Speaker 3: risk starting a program with deadly snakes and teaching people 542 00:30:23,170 --> 00:30:26,970 Speaker 3: how to manipulate them with with tools and so uh 543 00:30:27,370 --> 00:30:31,090 Speaker 3: we have mayor john sammy vahab and roxanna that are 544 00:30:31,130 --> 00:30:34,380 Speaker 3: the four core people of this program making it happen 545 00:30:34,940 --> 00:30:39,420 Speaker 3: we just offered our first venomous certification last weekend at 546 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 3: the new location so it's exciting to use the new 547 00:30:42,460 --> 00:30:45,780 Speaker 3: building for for this purpose so we're very excited and 548 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,330 Speaker 3: i feel like it's going to really expand from here. 549 00:30:49,350 --> 00:30:51,610 Speaker 3: I feel like our home here is a really great 550 00:30:51,690 --> 00:30:56,170 Speaker 3: place for us in a community that values wildlife, you know, 551 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,420 Speaker 3: and this is all really fertile soil for us to 552 00:30:59,460 --> 00:31:00,860 Speaker 3: grow from. Awesome. 553 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,900 Speaker 2: And what else is on the horizon for the Amphibian Foundation, especially, 554 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 2: you know, concerning the vilified species and, you know, the 555 00:31:09,180 --> 00:31:13,220 Speaker 2: venomous species and these species that are wrongly considered by 556 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,940 Speaker 2: many to be some sort of like enemy of humanity. 557 00:31:16,030 --> 00:31:18,450 Speaker 2: Like what other, what other efforts and programs do you 558 00:31:18,470 --> 00:31:19,950 Speaker 2: have on the horizon? Yeah. 559 00:31:20,330 --> 00:31:23,530 Speaker 3: Thank you. I mean, I've noticed since we've been doing this, 560 00:31:23,610 --> 00:31:27,830 Speaker 3: that I get my up when, when people are acting 561 00:31:28,190 --> 00:31:31,810 Speaker 3: in bad ways towards wildlife, just because they don't understand 562 00:31:31,870 --> 00:31:34,990 Speaker 3: or they're afraid or, you know, these are valid feelings too, 563 00:31:35,650 --> 00:31:41,180 Speaker 3: but we just feel very deep inspiration to push back 564 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 3: on that. So we've, We've started, well, we've done eight 565 00:31:45,900 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 3: years of biology of the despised as part of the 566 00:31:48,700 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 3: Atlanta Science Festival. Started with copperheads. Wanted to celebrate them. 567 00:31:53,660 --> 00:31:57,510 Speaker 3: And like 100 people came, you know. And we've highlighted 568 00:31:57,570 --> 00:32:01,190 Speaker 3: other groups, snapping turtles. Just snakes in general, you know. 569 00:32:01,250 --> 00:32:05,330 Speaker 3: Like there are lots of groups that are targeted as despised. 570 00:32:05,630 --> 00:32:09,690 Speaker 3: And so we're basing an entire course on that. Just 571 00:32:09,730 --> 00:32:12,610 Speaker 3: trying to elevate things. Because... This will give us an 572 00:32:12,650 --> 00:32:15,910 Speaker 3: opportunity to expand beyond the amphibian and reptile groups. And 573 00:32:15,950 --> 00:32:19,570 Speaker 3: maybe there's lots of despised taxa. A lot of people 574 00:32:19,630 --> 00:32:22,110 Speaker 3: doing really fascinating work with them too, that we'd like 575 00:32:22,150 --> 00:32:25,030 Speaker 3: to highlight. So I'm putting out a beacon for anyone 576 00:32:25,050 --> 00:32:27,070 Speaker 3: that would like to reach out to us that's working 577 00:32:27,110 --> 00:32:28,580 Speaker 3: with despised taxa. 578 00:32:28,990 --> 00:32:31,300 Speaker 2: Because this goes without saying, and certainly is a whole 579 00:32:31,380 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 2: episode unto itself. But, you know, obviously these complex venoms 580 00:32:36,180 --> 00:32:40,300 Speaker 2: in these organisms, like, you know, we've found various uses 581 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,780 Speaker 2: for these. In the field of medicine and pharmacology. So 582 00:32:44,820 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 2: it's like there's untapped potential there, right? So these animals 583 00:32:49,340 --> 00:32:51,959 Speaker 2: should be considered more our friends than our villain, especially 584 00:32:52,010 --> 00:32:52,830 Speaker 2: in that capacity. 585 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,790 Speaker 3: There are a lot of interesting compounds in the venom 586 00:32:56,210 --> 00:33:00,150 Speaker 3: and very similarly with frogs and the alkaloids in their skin. 587 00:33:01,250 --> 00:33:05,770 Speaker 3: used pharmaceutically to treat a lot of diseases like cancers 588 00:33:06,170 --> 00:33:10,910 Speaker 3: and can stop viral transmissions. There's a treasure chest in 589 00:33:11,300 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 3: these compounds, and we need to protect the animals for 590 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 3: that reason, if not for any of the other reasons 591 00:33:17,140 --> 00:33:19,300 Speaker 3: I gave you. Is that lizard being bad? 592 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:19,500 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. 593 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 2: I was hearing something back there. Oh, it's one of 594 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 2: the beaded lizards. 595 00:33:23,220 --> 00:33:27,010 Speaker 3: Look at how charming they are. Yeah. If you want, 596 00:33:27,150 --> 00:33:33,150 Speaker 3: you can glove up and you can hold one of those. 597 00:33:33,630 --> 00:33:36,460 Speaker 2: Let's see. I want to come back to the hotline. 598 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,340 Speaker 2: So I understand there's a web presence. If people want 599 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 2: to get that number, if they have a Copperhead question, 600 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 2: where can they go to get that number? Yes. 601 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 3: Sorry. I don't have the number memorized right now. It's copperhead.life. 602 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 3: That will take you to the hotline and we'll come, uh, 603 00:33:52,030 --> 00:33:55,470 Speaker 3: our volunteer team, trained professional volunteer team will come and 604 00:33:55,510 --> 00:33:59,270 Speaker 3: relocate a copperhead in Metro Atlanta for free. Um, though 605 00:33:59,310 --> 00:34:03,390 Speaker 3: we have been coming, uh, more adept, uh, Mayor John 606 00:34:03,590 --> 00:34:06,370 Speaker 3: has become more adept at convincing people to just leave 607 00:34:06,410 --> 00:34:07,670 Speaker 3: the snake where it is. 608 00:34:07,690 --> 00:34:08,130 Speaker 1: Okay. 609 00:34:08,150 --> 00:34:12,330 Speaker 3: Because it's entirely possible to live alongside these animals with 610 00:34:12,390 --> 00:34:14,910 Speaker 3: no issue. It's actually pretty easy. Okay. 611 00:34:15,010 --> 00:34:17,910 Speaker 2: Yeah. I've heard similar cases with like, with various wildlife 612 00:34:17,969 --> 00:34:21,899 Speaker 2: rescue scenarios where like sometimes The important communication is like, 613 00:34:22,060 --> 00:34:24,940 Speaker 2: just leave it alone. You don't need to get involved 614 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 2: in this particular scenario. No one's ever been bit by 615 00:34:27,460 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 2: a snake that just came up and bit you. You 616 00:34:29,180 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 2: know what I mean? The worst is if you accidentally 617 00:34:33,060 --> 00:34:35,390 Speaker 2: step on a thing. Okay, maybe that's a concern. But 618 00:34:35,739 --> 00:34:37,810 Speaker 2: most of these bites are happening with people that are 619 00:34:38,390 --> 00:34:40,569 Speaker 2: messing with the snakes. They're trying to kill it. They're 620 00:34:40,590 --> 00:34:44,589 Speaker 2: trying to move it. So that's what we're trying to 621 00:34:44,630 --> 00:34:48,140 Speaker 2: address as well. And finally, I want to come back 622 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 2: to the Amphibian Foundation itself. So where online can folks 623 00:34:52,739 --> 00:34:56,190 Speaker 2: go to learn more about Amphibian Foundation? Where can they 624 00:34:56,210 --> 00:35:00,049 Speaker 2: follow you online? Which are your preferred social accounts? Sure. 625 00:35:00,170 --> 00:35:04,270 Speaker 3: Thank you. And I should mention that the reason for 626 00:35:04,330 --> 00:35:07,029 Speaker 3: all this is that we're trying to conserve some of 627 00:35:07,110 --> 00:35:11,069 Speaker 3: the country's most imperiled amphibian species. And we fund these 628 00:35:11,130 --> 00:35:15,089 Speaker 3: conservation programs with these programs. So the venom class helps 629 00:35:15,170 --> 00:35:19,710 Speaker 3: us save frosted flatwood salamanders and gopher frogs and striped newts. 630 00:35:19,770 --> 00:35:23,660 Speaker 3: And you can learn all about that at amphibianfoundation.org. And 631 00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:26,660 Speaker 3: we're on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook as well. 632 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,879 Speaker 2: Okay. And if folks want to help support, like chip 633 00:35:30,980 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 2: in and help the Amphibian Foundation, in addition to if 634 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 2: they're locally based or traveling to Atlanta, partaking in any 635 00:35:36,580 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 2: of these programs, what else can they do? 636 00:35:39,469 --> 00:35:45,430 Speaker 3: Yeah, we have a growing network. And so there is 637 00:35:45,469 --> 00:35:47,370 Speaker 3: a lot of work to do when we're trying to 638 00:35:47,410 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 3: save amphibians and elevate these groups. So people can come 639 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 3: to the website and look for opportunities to volunteer with 640 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,459 Speaker 3: AF if you want to get involved. Donations are always 641 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 3: appreciated and necessary. And we also have a good resource 642 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,569 Speaker 3: for how to make your yard more amphibian friendly and 643 00:36:05,630 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 3: things that you can do at home for amphibians. So 644 00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 3: there's lots of ways to get involved no matter where 645 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 3: you are. 646 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 2: Excellent. Yeah, and I know we've talked about some of 647 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,399 Speaker 2: these in our past episodes where you came on. So 648 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,219 Speaker 2: I would say listeners also, if you just want to 649 00:36:20,100 --> 00:36:23,930 Speaker 2: hear more with Mark, check in our backlog wherever you 650 00:36:23,969 --> 00:36:27,609 Speaker 2: get your audio podcasts. And yeah, it's like two, maybe 651 00:36:27,670 --> 00:36:29,950 Speaker 2: three times you came on the show and talked about 652 00:36:30,370 --> 00:36:31,710 Speaker 2: amphibians and snakes. 653 00:36:31,790 --> 00:36:35,089 Speaker 3: And it's always a privilege. I really, really appreciate it. 654 00:36:35,190 --> 00:36:37,270 Speaker 2: Oh, we always love to have you on. Thanks for... 655 00:36:37,969 --> 00:36:39,469 Speaker 2: allow me to come in and check out the new 656 00:36:39,510 --> 00:36:42,230 Speaker 2: venom lab. Uh, I do want to just for anybody 657 00:36:42,290 --> 00:36:44,569 Speaker 2: watching on Netflix, I do want to point out, this 658 00:36:44,630 --> 00:36:48,180 Speaker 2: is a room climate control for reptiles. And then we 659 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 2: went ahead and added, I think five humans total, and 660 00:36:51,060 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 2: then some lights and stuff. So if I'm visibly sweating, uh, that's, 661 00:36:54,820 --> 00:36:57,989 Speaker 2: that's the main reason, not the, not the venomous reptiles 662 00:36:58,050 --> 00:37:02,030 Speaker 2: behind me. I know they are behind, uh, safely behind screens. So, Uh, 663 00:37:02,219 --> 00:37:04,879 Speaker 2: but yeah, Mark, thanks for letting us come in, check 664 00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:08,819 Speaker 2: out the new facility and chatting with me once more, uh, about, uh, 665 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:10,620 Speaker 2: about amphibians and reptiles. 666 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,020 Speaker 3: Yeah, this was great. Thank you. 667 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,609 Speaker 2: All right. Thanks. All right. Uh, everyone out there, uh, 668 00:37:15,650 --> 00:37:17,790 Speaker 2: just want to remind everyone that stuff to blow your 669 00:37:17,810 --> 00:37:21,029 Speaker 2: mind is primarily a science and culture podcast with core 670 00:37:21,050 --> 00:37:24,290 Speaker 2: episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We do a short form 671 00:37:24,310 --> 00:37:27,070 Speaker 2: episode on Wednesday and then on Fridays we set aside 672 00:37:27,150 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 2: most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film 673 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,370 Speaker 2: on weird house cinema. As always, I want to thank 674 00:37:32,410 --> 00:37:35,860 Speaker 2: the excellent JJ Possway for producing the audio on this show. 675 00:37:36,180 --> 00:37:38,799 Speaker 2: And also, I want to thank Jordan and Brock for 676 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 2: handling video on this. If you are catching this episode 677 00:37:42,260 --> 00:37:45,259 Speaker 2: at Netflix, you can get the audio version wherever you 678 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 2: get your audio podcast. But if you want to check 679 00:37:47,340 --> 00:37:49,690 Speaker 2: out the video version of this episode, you will find 680 00:37:49,730 --> 00:37:53,410 Speaker 2: it on Netflix, along with our more recent episodes as well. 681 00:37:53,989 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 2: If you want to get in touch with us, just 682 00:37:55,739 --> 00:37:59,460 Speaker 2: shoot us an email at contact at stufftoblowyourmind.com. 683 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:09,690 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeartRadio. 684 00:38:10,090 --> 00:38:13,410 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple 685 00:38:13,430 --> 00:38:15,810 Speaker 1: Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 686 00:38:25,020 --> 00:38:25,340 Speaker 2: Thank you.