1
00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:07,800
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to stuff mom

2
00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:24,480
Speaker 1: never told you, and today we're gonna revisit a classic

3
00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:28,800
Speaker 1: episode about someone who's been in the news lately that

4
00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,680
Speaker 1: you might have heard of, Taylor Swift. I was sort

5
00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:37,559
Speaker 1: of a new Taylor Swift light fan. My ex boyfriend

6
00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:42,919
Speaker 1: loved her, and it did rub off on me, especially

7
00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,559
Speaker 1: when she would release a new music video, and they

8
00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,080
Speaker 1: were always so epic and so much production work in them,

9
00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:50,800
Speaker 1: and I was known to get drunk and talk about

10
00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,280
Speaker 1: how cool they were and make people watch them. A

11
00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:56,280
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, I faced what I called a

12
00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:58,880
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift conundrum, and it wasn't really that at all.

13
00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,480
Speaker 1: I just like having dramatic names to things. I had

14
00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,319
Speaker 1: bought a ticket to one of her to reputation concerts

15
00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,600
Speaker 1: in Atlanta like a year before it was scheduled to happen,

16
00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,360
Speaker 1: and then I totally forgot about it and agreed to

17
00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,679
Speaker 1: go film something for work that same weekend, and I

18
00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,240
Speaker 1: wrestled four days with whether I should sell the tickets

19
00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,880
Speaker 1: and travel to the filming location with the crew, which

20
00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,880
Speaker 1: was out of state by the way, or go to

21
00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,240
Speaker 1: the concert and wake up at three am the next

22
00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:35,160
Speaker 1: morning and drive several hours by myself to the filming location.

23
00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,200
Speaker 1: I was asking everyone what I should do, and finally

24
00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,920
Speaker 1: I decided to go. So worth it. There were these

25
00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,400
Speaker 1: light up wristbands that were tied and call it coded

26
00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,240
Speaker 1: to the music. There were snakes that were coming out

27
00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:54,800
Speaker 1: of the stage. No regrets, but yes, Taylor Swift is

28
00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,200
Speaker 1: in the news again, and not for music or a

29
00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:02,680
Speaker 1: beef with another pop star. She finally broke her political

30
00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,160
Speaker 1: silence in an Instagram post and came out in support

31
00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:10,720
Speaker 1: of Tennessee Democrats. Quote. In the past, I've been very

32
00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,359
Speaker 1: reluctant to publicly voice my political opinions. I feel very

33
00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,520
Speaker 1: different about that now. I always have and always will

34
00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,639
Speaker 1: cast my vote based on which candidate will protect and

35
00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,119
Speaker 1: fight for the human rights I believe we all deserved

36
00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,320
Speaker 1: in this country. I believe in the fight for lgbt

37
00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,120
Speaker 1: Q rights and that any form of discrimination based on

38
00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:34,560
Speaker 1: sexual orientation or gender is wrong in all caps. She

39
00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,800
Speaker 1: has over one hundred and twelve million followers on Instagram.

40
00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:43,079
Speaker 1: By the way, in sixteen, who is Taylor Swift going

41
00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,080
Speaker 1: to vote for? Was a top result on Google and

42
00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,760
Speaker 1: the response has been very mixed to her making this

43
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,679
Speaker 1: political statement to say the least, and as you'll hear

44
00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,480
Speaker 1: in this classic episode, in part because of Taylor Swift's

45
00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:02,120
Speaker 1: political silence, her music has been popular among the alt right,

46
00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,519
Speaker 1: a K fascist, and neo Nazis, and they have swiftly

47
00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,120
Speaker 1: witches up on condemned her, going as far to say

48
00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:13,079
Speaker 1: that her career is over. Donald Trump says he quote

49
00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,160
Speaker 1: likes her music less now, which makes me like it

50
00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:22,720
Speaker 1: about more. After her post on Sunday, voter registration spiked

51
00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:27,880
Speaker 1: sixty five thousand registrations in twenty four hours. The spiking

52
00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,679
Speaker 1: of Taylor Swift song pun related headlines went through the

53
00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,280
Speaker 1: roof no end in sight, so we're just gonna have

54
00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,920
Speaker 1: to put up with that for a little while. In

55
00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,240
Speaker 1: light of all of this, we hope that you enjoy

56
00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:48,920
Speaker 1: this episode on Taylor Swift's feminism. Hey, this is Emily,

57
00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,839
Speaker 1: and this is and you're listening to stuff mom never

58
00:03:51,920 --> 00:04:05,400
Speaker 1: told you. Today, we are so excited to be joined

59
00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,960
Speaker 1: by Elisa Krissinger, executive producer over at Refinery nine, who

60
00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:14,600
Speaker 1: hosts a awesome, fierce feminist podcast and video series called

61
00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,160
Speaker 1: Strong Opinions Loosely Held. Thanks so much for tuning in

62
00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,120
Speaker 1: today to help us talk through this very fraught subject. Alisa,

63
00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,279
Speaker 1: We're so glad to have you. O hey, thanks so

64
00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,360
Speaker 1: much for having me. I'm so excited to walk through

65
00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,240
Speaker 1: this with you. Guys. So Alisa and I actually go

66
00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,120
Speaker 1: way back. I guess I should say, Alisa, Taylor Swift

67
00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,760
Speaker 1: and I go way back. Um. Alisa put together a fabulous,

68
00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,719
Speaker 1: fabulous panel at south By Southwest last year all about

69
00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,840
Speaker 1: celebrities and activism, and Taylor Swift came up quite a bit.

70
00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:45,880
Speaker 1: The number one question that we left that panel with

71
00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,120
Speaker 1: was who did Taylor Swift to vote for? Later on,

72
00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,279
Speaker 1: I was on an episode of her really amazing show

73
00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,640
Speaker 1: talking about Taylor Swift and all the ins and outs

74
00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:56,679
Speaker 1: of who she is as a feminist, as an artist

75
00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,000
Speaker 1: and all of that. So we really, Alisa, we really

76
00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,320
Speaker 1: go way back when it to We do totally. And

77
00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,599
Speaker 1: I think it kind of started when you posted that

78
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,400
Speaker 1: thing on Facebook about who your most problematic save was,

79
00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,200
Speaker 1: and I scrolled through it and so many people said

80
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,800
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift exactly, And that was when we started this series.

81
00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,919
Speaker 1: You may recall our lovely listeners. The first episode we

82
00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,200
Speaker 1: did on Problematic Faves was with the One and Only

83
00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,240
Speaker 1: Judge Judy, which was such a fun episode, and I

84
00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,760
Speaker 1: loved putting that together. And I'm not gonna lie when

85
00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,640
Speaker 1: I dropped in that Taylor Swift was my problematic fave,

86
00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,840
Speaker 1: and so many of you agreed. I have been dragging

87
00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,760
Speaker 1: my feet putting this episode together because I was seriously

88
00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,400
Speaker 1: dreading it. Well, people love Taylor Swift. I love Taylor Swift,

89
00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,000
Speaker 1: and I have to come out first and foremost by

90
00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,920
Speaker 1: saying the reason problematic faves are hard is because you're

91
00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,280
Speaker 1: trying to reconcile. And that's what we're gonna trying to

92
00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,600
Speaker 1: do today with everybody here, how you can both respect

93
00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,359
Speaker 1: and love the artistry of someone like Taylor Swift and

94
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,960
Speaker 1: hold him accountable totally. I think she represents a great

95
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:04,919
Speaker 1: example of how you can be both a fan of

96
00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,040
Speaker 1: popular culture but a critic of it at the same time.

97
00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,440
Speaker 1: Exactly what I think we should do today, as so

98
00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,839
Speaker 1: many people are tuning into this thinking like, okay, walk

99
00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:15,960
Speaker 1: me through this. I've I've seen the tweets. Have you

100
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,200
Speaker 1: seen these? Bridget to our Twitter handles saying I need

101
00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,200
Speaker 1: you to unpack Taylor Swift for me because I have

102
00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,520
Speaker 1: so many feels for her. So what I'd like to

103
00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,680
Speaker 1: start with, is what about her do we love and respect?

104
00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,760
Speaker 1: And what about her is seriously problematic and worthy of

105
00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,200
Speaker 1: of breaking down? Does that sounds like a good place

106
00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:35,960
Speaker 1: to start. That sounds like a good place to start.

107
00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,400
Speaker 1: I just want to give a big caveat. I don't

108
00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,360
Speaker 1: actually care for Taylor Swift, and I hope that something

109
00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,839
Speaker 1: about this once and people didn't care for that opinion.

110
00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:47,800
Speaker 1: You know what is my opinion. I don't have to

111
00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,640
Speaker 1: like everybody. I don't care for Taylor Swift. Bridget is

112
00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,880
Speaker 1: Bridgets coming out as anti Taylor Swift anti, I will

113
00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,320
Speaker 1: go that far. I don't care for her. Okay, Yeah,

114
00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,800
Speaker 1: that's an important distinction. Okay at least? So where do

115
00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:03,279
Speaker 1: you down on the Taylor Swift love a meter? Yeah?

116
00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,080
Speaker 1: I mean I think that no one represents the resentment

117
00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,680
Speaker 1: America has towards white women better than Taylor Swift, and

118
00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,920
Speaker 1: I think that pushes me more towards a love and

119
00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,160
Speaker 1: a hate. I think she's got a great opportunity to

120
00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,080
Speaker 1: do something with the platform and power and privilege that

121
00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,440
Speaker 1: she has, but she kind of hasn't. So I'm like,

122
00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,760
Speaker 1: I'm very lukewarm. I saw squarely. I think in between

123
00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,679
Speaker 1: both of you. Okay, well this is good. They should

124
00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,800
Speaker 1: make for a good conversation. Then I'm like sweating already,

125
00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,000
Speaker 1: but this is good, So let me start here. And

126
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,440
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to position myself as the defender of

127
00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,040
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift. I'm just here to say she's like you are.

128
00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,120
Speaker 1: Now I'm really sweating, um. But I do think that

129
00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:48,920
Speaker 1: what I have recognized and putting this episode together is

130
00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:53,520
Speaker 1: that it is very easy to want to look away

131
00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,320
Speaker 1: when someone you are a fan of is doing some questionable,

132
00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,760
Speaker 1: shady right, Like it is easy to catch yourself ignoring

133
00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:05,400
Speaker 1: the bad because you want to vehemently and only support

134
00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,760
Speaker 1: the good. And we're going to talk about today how

135
00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,640
Speaker 1: we can hold those two truths at the same time,

136
00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,000
Speaker 1: and why it's okay to have problematic faves just like

137
00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,720
Speaker 1: Judge Judy, but why it's also really really important that

138
00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,440
Speaker 1: we hold our celebrity idols accountable. So first and foremost,

139
00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,400
Speaker 1: as an entrepreneur, I find her drive and her vision

140
00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,960
Speaker 1: and the fact that she made this lifelong ambition of

141
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,840
Speaker 1: hers a reality and was very much central as a

142
00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:34,240
Speaker 1: young girl really to positioning herself for the pop sensation

143
00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,120
Speaker 1: she's become like she was very much in the driver's

144
00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,320
Speaker 1: seat of her own career from a young age, and

145
00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,160
Speaker 1: that to go way back to Taylor's origins, that's one

146
00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,439
Speaker 1: of the things that really wins my respect in her case.

147
00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,480
Speaker 1: I can definitely respect the idea that she was this

148
00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:51,760
Speaker 1: young girl with a dream and she made that dream

149
00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,720
Speaker 1: of reality. That's something that tails at those time got

150
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,319
Speaker 1: to give it up for that. I definitely applaud her

151
00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,839
Speaker 1: for making that happen, and that's not something that's easy.

152
00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,920
Speaker 1: Something that I've actually always liked about Taylor is that

153
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,000
Speaker 1: she's has a lot of control over her art and

154
00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,720
Speaker 1: over her career. And so, you know, you see a

155
00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,600
Speaker 1: lot of things in the media about young pop stars

156
00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,440
Speaker 1: who kind of somebody else is driving all the shots

157
00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,200
Speaker 1: and making all the calls and their label is being

158
00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,360
Speaker 1: awful and they just put up with it. Taylor is

159
00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,600
Speaker 1: not someone who does that. Right. At eleven years old,

160
00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,840
Speaker 1: she convinced her mom to take her on a trip

161
00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,400
Speaker 1: to Nashville where she could go door to door on

162
00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:33,600
Speaker 1: Nashville record labels giving them a homemade CD demo no bites, right,

163
00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,199
Speaker 1: so she got no traction from that, and at eleven

164
00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,439
Speaker 1: years old, that's cute, Like Oh, a little girl with

165
00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,840
Speaker 1: the dream, but the rejection that she experienced could have

166
00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,240
Speaker 1: been a career ender for most eleven year old but

167
00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,640
Speaker 1: not for Taylor. She at that point learned to play guitar,

168
00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,120
Speaker 1: started writing her own songs I'm sure, bankrolled by her

169
00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,960
Speaker 1: very well off parents, with a lot of assistance from professionals.

170
00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,079
Speaker 1: But at fourteen years old, when our c A, one

171
00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,880
Speaker 1: of the largest record labels in Nashville, gave her a

172
00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,480
Speaker 1: development deal which was kind of like an investment for

173
00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,200
Speaker 1: a year. I wasn't a full record deal, but it

174
00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,440
Speaker 1: was like, let's fund your learning and growth and progress

175
00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,880
Speaker 1: and see what happens. But at the end of the

176
00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,920
Speaker 1: year they took a pass on her. We're not going

177
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,200
Speaker 1: to fund a record deal. Wanted to keep her on

178
00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,960
Speaker 1: the label, but shelf her and she walked away from

179
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,280
Speaker 1: our ci A and at that same time convinced her

180
00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:29,880
Speaker 1: entire family to relocate to Nashville for her career at

181
00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,040
Speaker 1: fourteen years old. I mean that you've got to give

182
00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,640
Speaker 1: it up for her. That I applaud her. I applaud her.

183
00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:36,920
Speaker 1: I will give the caveat that. Luckily, she had the

184
00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,400
Speaker 1: kind of family where relocating to a different city to

185
00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,400
Speaker 1: support the artistic dream of your young daughter was a reality.

186
00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,959
Speaker 1: Because I've heard many, many, many stories of like, oh,

187
00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,000
Speaker 1: I've got my mixtape, my demo, I've been telling it,

188
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,720
Speaker 1: showing it to everybody, but that that same person doesn't

189
00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:53,559
Speaker 1: have the means to do that, the story could go

190
00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,320
Speaker 1: very differently. So I applaud that very very much. But

191
00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,400
Speaker 1: I think it's very lucky that she had that kind

192
00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,520
Speaker 1: of family support where that was possible. Totally. And to

193
00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,800
Speaker 1: on that note to Bridget, I think you know, a

194
00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,920
Speaker 1: lot of her brand has been built on being an outsider,

195
00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,040
Speaker 1: but really she grew up on a Christmas tree farm. Um.

196
00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,720
Speaker 1: She has this very ideal childhood, and not that we

197
00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,160
Speaker 1: should be holding that against her, but it certainly helps

198
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,160
Speaker 1: to find and follow your dreams when you come from

199
00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,760
Speaker 1: wealth and privilege. Both of her parents, UM were executives

200
00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,000
Speaker 1: UM at banks, and she herself actually wanted to go

201
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:35,040
Speaker 1: into the banking industry before she found Before she found

202
00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,000
Speaker 1: country music specifically, UM. I think that she was most

203
00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:43,280
Speaker 1: inspired by crossover artists on the nineties like Faith Hill,

204
00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:45,920
Speaker 1: she and I Twain and the Dixie Chicks, and then

205
00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,319
Speaker 1: she changed her tune no pun intended and UM wanted

206
00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,120
Speaker 1: to go in a different direction, which, again I applaud

207
00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,560
Speaker 1: her hustle, just like you said, totally applaud her hustle,

208
00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,480
Speaker 1: I mean, and bridget copy paste. Yeah, but it's a

209
00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,120
Speaker 1: lot easier to do, and your parents have a ship

210
00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,360
Speaker 1: ton of money, exactly, And she had parents who were

211
00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,200
Speaker 1: willing to listen to her. So here's the thing. Yes,

212
00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,520
Speaker 1: she comes from a bunch of privilege, financial privilege, the

213
00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,440
Speaker 1: privilege of having two parents who were willing to support

214
00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,160
Speaker 1: your insane dream at eleven years old or fourteen years old,

215
00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,840
Speaker 1: and beyond that, parents who were willing to invest hard,

216
00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,680
Speaker 1: earn money, time, energy, and effort in your pipe dream. Really,

217
00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,040
Speaker 1: and yet, at the same time, being wealthy does not

218
00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,120
Speaker 1: make you talented. Being wealthy and privileged does not make

219
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,600
Speaker 1: you ambitious, and it sure as hell doesn't make it

220
00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,040
Speaker 1: a guaranteed that At a showcase she had in Nashville

221
00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,000
Speaker 1: at fourteen years old, Scott borshetta who had just left

222
00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:48,679
Speaker 1: another huge record label, I believe Universal, He approached her

223
00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:50,920
Speaker 1: and said, so, the good news is I want to

224
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:52,679
Speaker 1: sign you for a record deal. The bad news is

225
00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:54,480
Speaker 1: I don't have a record label. You would be the

226
00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,160
Speaker 1: first person. So she took a chance on him, and

227
00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:02,160
Speaker 1: three years later her record sales topped seven million. Seven

228
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,000
Speaker 1: million three years later, that's hugely impressive. And just to

229
00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,080
Speaker 1: go back for a second, I think the point that

230
00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:09,600
Speaker 1: I'm making is that both things can be true. It

231
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,600
Speaker 1: can be true that she's ambitious and talented but also

232
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:14,280
Speaker 1: had a lot of help and was very lucky and

233
00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,640
Speaker 1: had supportive, privileged parents, and that was also a very

234
00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,000
Speaker 1: influential for her success. And so I'm not saying that, oh,

235
00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,720
Speaker 1: the only reason why she did that is because she's

236
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:25,720
Speaker 1: rich and her parents are supportive and blah blah blah.

237
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:27,520
Speaker 1: Obviously not because you have to have talent, right, So

238
00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:28,880
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, she does have talent.

239
00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,400
Speaker 1: I think that's clear. So I just think it's possible

240
00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,720
Speaker 1: that both things exactly exactly. And that's part of what's

241
00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,640
Speaker 1: challenging about being a fan of hers and hearing the critics.

242
00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:39,719
Speaker 1: It's like, yes, those things are both true. Can we

243
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,600
Speaker 1: acknowledge that they're both present? The other thing that's undeniable

244
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,200
Speaker 1: is that her songs are hella catchy. In fact, Okay,

245
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,880
Speaker 1: putting reputation aside for a second, because we all have

246
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,520
Speaker 1: very strong opinions on reputation. Her latest album, which we're

247
00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,440
Speaker 1: gonna talk about further, but there was an SNL skit

248
00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,240
Speaker 1: that I think put it perfectly that was called Swift Mean,

249
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,400
Speaker 1: and it was a commercial kind of like for drama

250
00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,800
Speaker 1: mine for sudden onset of vertigo induced by the fact

251
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,720
Speaker 1: that you're jamming out to a song at the club

252
00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,400
Speaker 1: and then you realize it's by Taylor Swift, and you're like, what,

253
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,000
Speaker 1: I'm a grown ass woman and I love Taylor Swift.

254
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,360
Speaker 1: Girl can write a song and it's so perfect because

255
00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,680
Speaker 1: it's hilariously fraught in that you love the music and

256
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,000
Speaker 1: then when you realize it's by who Taylor Swift? That album,

257
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:32,480
Speaker 1: That last album really reached across the age spectrum and

258
00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,280
Speaker 1: I think got a lot of people on board with

259
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,000
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift's music. What do you think, Alisa, Yeah, I

260
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,760
Speaker 1: think she's really good at what she does. She's a

261
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,080
Speaker 1: great artist, and no one can deny that. I think

262
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,520
Speaker 1: that we all want to make sure that our politics

263
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,680
Speaker 1: match our popular culture, So I think in terms of

264
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,040
Speaker 1: popular culture, she's awesome. Had it. She knows the game.

265
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,520
Speaker 1: She plays it really well when it comes to making

266
00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,160
Speaker 1: a product that people can't get out of their heads, right,

267
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,320
Speaker 1: And that's what her role as a pop star is,

268
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,240
Speaker 1: so totally a plus in that category for sure. So

269
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,400
Speaker 1: I'm not the biggest fan of her music, but you know,

270
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,080
Speaker 1: I love pop music. I love pop songs. And one

271
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:10,920
Speaker 1: of the things I love the most about pop music

272
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,320
Speaker 1: is that it doesn't even matter if it's a genre

273
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:15,400
Speaker 1: that you like or an artist that you like. You

274
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,120
Speaker 1: when you hear a perfect pop song, you know what's

275
00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:18,880
Speaker 1: a perfect pop song, right, So, like when you hear

276
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,800
Speaker 1: Katy Perry's Teenage Dream, like, you know, whether you like

277
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:23,400
Speaker 1: Katy Perry or not, whether you like that kind of

278
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,320
Speaker 1: music or not, you know it's a perfect pop song.

279
00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,360
Speaker 1: And so I think kind of like what at LASTA

280
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,280
Speaker 1: was just saying, she's so good at creating these perfect

281
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,960
Speaker 1: pop songs as a as a product, and that even

282
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,760
Speaker 1: if you don't like Taylor Swift, you don't like her music,

283
00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:38,880
Speaker 1: you listen to something like shake It Off, and you

284
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,040
Speaker 1: know that's a perfect pop song, right like it just

285
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,480
Speaker 1: it doesn't like like it's undeniable. So I will say,

286
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,200
Speaker 1: I mean, even though I'm not her biggest fan of musically,

287
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,400
Speaker 1: I can recognize that she really knows that she's doing

288
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,440
Speaker 1: when it comes to crafting a marketable, perfect well crafted

289
00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,160
Speaker 1: pop song. And really what's interesting is that she came

290
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,920
Speaker 1: up in country, right. She came up in the country world,

291
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:05,120
Speaker 1: and in anyways broadened the genres reached by writing teenage

292
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:10,120
Speaker 1: love songs really about high school era heartbreak that popularized

293
00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,880
Speaker 1: country music amongst suburban teenage girls for the first time,

294
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,640
Speaker 1: really expanding the demographic that the industry was able to reach.

295
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,960
Speaker 1: That was extraordinary at first. Then she transitioned into pop

296
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,840
Speaker 1: made her into a different kind of artist. She sort

297
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,600
Speaker 1: of redefined herself in the public eye, which is not

298
00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,600
Speaker 1: an easy thing to do. And beyond that, her tour,

299
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,160
Speaker 1: I think her tour on record was some of the

300
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:40,880
Speaker 1: most interesting artistic choices that I've ever seen an artist make. Notably,

301
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:46,000
Speaker 1: she featured other really incredible artists and sort of introduced

302
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:51,120
Speaker 1: her fandom to other artists across genres, people like pit

303
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:56,280
Speaker 1: Bull and Charlie XCS, Alison Krausse, the Band, Perry Whiz Khalifa,

304
00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,160
Speaker 1: John Legend, Mary J. Blige. She was, in so any

305
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:05,040
Speaker 1: raise generous with how she proceeded in nine. Whether you

306
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:09,600
Speaker 1: see it as being crafted in a strategic sort of

307
00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,919
Speaker 1: marketing standpoint or as an altruistic move I think it

308
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,240
Speaker 1: can be both at the same time as well. Yeah,

309
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:16,679
Speaker 1: I mean I would almost push back on some of

310
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,680
Speaker 1: those because I feel like, if you have an icon

311
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,960
Speaker 1: like Mary J. Blage on your album, you're not doing

312
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,280
Speaker 1: her the favor. She's doing you favor. Right there are

313
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,080
Speaker 1: people I'm like, yeah, like Taylor wasn't like I'll give you,

314
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,400
Speaker 1: I'll do this a favor for you, Mary, Like, that's true.

315
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:35,360
Speaker 1: She's a peak popularity to Also on the nine tour,

316
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,840
Speaker 1: I think it's important to call out that she made

317
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:43,240
Speaker 1: I think Apple Um she did a takeover of the

318
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,360
Speaker 1: Apple Store, so everything featured her branding, right. Like, from

319
00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,320
Speaker 1: a business perspective, she's been really good at marrying capitalism

320
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,400
Speaker 1: with artistic expression. Down to her issue with Spotify, which

321
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,320
Speaker 1: is that they want they needed to pay artists more.

322
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,800
Speaker 1: She's taken up these causes that do allow her to

323
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,119
Speaker 1: spress herself in the way she wants to express herself,

324
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,280
Speaker 1: make the product she wants to make while also making bank,

325
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,600
Speaker 1: and that's hard to do. People have been trying to

326
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,159
Speaker 1: do that since the dawn of time. So I feel like,

327
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,800
Speaker 1: in a way, you know, she has mastered that with

328
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,920
Speaker 1: n specifically, but throughout her career as an artist totally.

329
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,720
Speaker 1: And then the last big notable mentioned I have to

330
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,840
Speaker 1: acknowledge in terms of her artistry before we take a

331
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,440
Speaker 1: quick break, is her use of social media, especially on

332
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,400
Speaker 1: the platform Tumbler, was really kind of extraordinary and how

333
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,040
Speaker 1: she interfaced with her fans from a young age, from

334
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,680
Speaker 1: the beginning of her career. Yeah, I'm actually consistently impressed

335
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,160
Speaker 1: with her youth of social media even now. Even now,

336
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,480
Speaker 1: you can find her leaving cute comments on fans posts

337
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,760
Speaker 1: about her. People will post like, oh my god, I

338
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:51,879
Speaker 1: love Taylor Swift, and she'll comment, oh my god, Hi,

339
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,439
Speaker 1: it's Taylor. And you know, I actually genuinely believe that

340
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,000
Speaker 1: that's not an assistant or a social media manager. I

341
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,680
Speaker 1: believe that is a percent Taylor. And so I'm someone

342
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,080
Speaker 1: who loves like memes and the Internet. She's shown herself

343
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,040
Speaker 1: to be someone who's very read in on those things.

344
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,320
Speaker 1: If you've ever seen that iconic Tumbler post where it's

345
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,720
Speaker 1: a picture of Taylor Swift and the the comment says,

346
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,600
Speaker 1: this is my friend Becky who died after using marijuana,

347
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,040
Speaker 1: and someone comments, no, that's Taylor Swift. And then the

348
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,879
Speaker 1: other comments says, no, it's Becky. There's a picture of

349
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,439
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift wearing a shirt that says no, it's Becky.

350
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,680
Speaker 1: So I like the idea that Taylor Swift knows what

351
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,080
Speaker 1: the chatter is about her on places like Tumbler and

352
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,879
Speaker 1: Instagram and plays into it in a way that I

353
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,760
Speaker 1: think it's really clever and funny and dare I say cool.

354
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:37,760
Speaker 1: I never thought I would hear myself saying that I

355
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,200
Speaker 1: think Taylor Swift is cool. But that is cool being

356
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,480
Speaker 1: read in on what the internet is saying and knowing

357
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,399
Speaker 1: how to wink, wink, not not at it. That is

358
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,520
Speaker 1: a cool thing totally. I mean, I think what she

359
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,480
Speaker 1: gives to teenage girls and young women in particular is

360
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,919
Speaker 1: validation that they're not crazy, that they're not insane, that

361
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,959
Speaker 1: they can have feelings and feel certain ways, and participate

362
00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,439
Speaker 1: in social media, on social platforms with each other, talking

363
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,919
Speaker 1: to each other in a language of popular culture that

364
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,159
Speaker 1: they we all understand and we all speak. She gets that,

365
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 1: and she talks back about language, and I think that

366
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,640
Speaker 1: that's really valuable. Oh. I love how you put that

367
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,400
Speaker 1: that she she speaks in that language, where as someone

368
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,800
Speaker 1: who grew up on and on the internet late at night,

369
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,280
Speaker 1: on MySpace and message boards and all that. Having someone

370
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,520
Speaker 1: as a famous as Taylor Swift speaking in that language

371
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,000
Speaker 1: is powerful, particularly when you're a young girl, when you're

372
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:29,520
Speaker 1: when you feel like all the things that you're doing

373
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,320
Speaker 1: online are like geeky or nerdy or stupid or weird

374
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,400
Speaker 1: or whatever. Having someone as famous and beautiful and influentialist

375
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,000
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift say that's okay, and I'm going to speak

376
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:43,000
Speaker 1: back at you with that language is so powerful. She

377
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,760
Speaker 1: brings her fans into the process in a way that

378
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,359
Speaker 1: I thought was really interesting, especially she turned some of

379
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:55,080
Speaker 1: her online conversations into in person invitations for listening parties.

380
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,640
Speaker 1: Of course she used that to sort of build buzz,

381
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 1: make her swift ease feel very spec shoal and in

382
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:06,520
Speaker 1: so many ways it married true online to offline organizing too.

383
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,280
Speaker 1: Why you did not go there? I just did go

384
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 1: there too. It marries that with marketing. She I mean,

385
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 1: she totally commercialized her fandom, but she did in a

386
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 1: way that is textbook organizing. I like it. Where you

387
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,200
Speaker 1: she It is sort of like she made these little

388
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:26,120
Speaker 1: organized the little Taylor Swift organizers. Yeah, I haven't thought

389
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:27,720
Speaker 1: of it that way, but that is something. There's something

390
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:29,919
Speaker 1: to that, and I don't see anyone else doing that.

391
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:34,720
Speaker 1: I mean, she in many ways like has pioneered that

392
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 1: fan interaction in a way that whether you believe it's

393
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,119
Speaker 1: genuine or not, in my opinion, does not matter because

394
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 1: she made her fans feel like it was genuine. She

395
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 1: certainly makes it seem like she's being genuine about it

396
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 1: and she's making bank at the same time. Like you

397
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,360
Speaker 1: were saying, a Lisa, it can be both. Question. Who

398
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 1: do you think has more of abbid fans, Taylor Swift

399
00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 1: or the bay Hive? Beyonce? Oh, I don't know, Beyonce. Yeah,

400
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 1: I might say Beyonce too, because Taylor's fans are they're

401
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,160
Speaker 1: really really right or dive for Taylor, but the bay

402
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,959
Speaker 1: hid like will take people down like they're there. They

403
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:13,919
Speaker 1: are no joke. I just feel like you can be

404
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,680
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift and even Taylor Swift bows down to the

405
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 1: Queen Bear, you know what I mean. I like that.

406
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,680
Speaker 1: I feel like there's just no comparison. Also from the artist.

407
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 1: I mean, can we just say it, it's amazing to

408
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: have two artists like Taylor Swift and Beyonce's Lemonade coming

409
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 1: up in the same We're like in a very special time. Yeah,

410
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,439
Speaker 1: I think we're in a special time for women in

411
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,439
Speaker 1: pop music because I think so long we've been told

412
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: that when a woman is a pop artist, that she's

413
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 1: just frivolous, it's abot her boyfriend's blah blah blah. But

414
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 1: I'm happy to be in a time where we are

415
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 1: understanding and appreciating that as art. So I don't want

416
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 1: to make it seem like I don't think that about

417
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,200
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift. I think that Night nine was a piece

418
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,199
Speaker 1: of art, and I think people recognize that asked that,

419
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 1: and I think that's the way it should be. Do

420
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 1: you think Taylor how to galvanize her fans and organize

421
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 1: them through specific tactics, whether real or a marketing campaign.

422
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 1: Do you think that she had to organize those young

423
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: women into segments of her fans or like fandoms because

424
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 1: she's a female artist and all that female fan labor

425
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: usually goes towards younger male artists, and it's something that

426
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: we haven't maybe seen so much of or have a

427
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 1: model or business model for young female fans supporting a

428
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 1: young female artist. I actually think there's something to that idea,

429
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,880
Speaker 1: because when you think about organized fandom right where it's

430
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 1: fan clubs and people writing letters and sending emails and

431
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 1: having meetups and all of that things that involve a

432
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 1: lot of labor and in real life work, you really

433
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 1: do see a lot of that for boy bands and

434
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 1: artists who are young men. And so I actually do

435
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 1: think it's interesting that Taylor Swift hasn't been able to

436
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:54,439
Speaker 1: generate that same level of in real life connection and

437
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 1: engagement with young fans being a young woman, because you

438
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,360
Speaker 1: really don't see that often. I don't know I see

439
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 1: it broken down in gender as much as I see

440
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,160
Speaker 1: it as in terms of the shifting nature of media.

441
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 1: Because of social media, the ability to be more in

442
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: control of your fandom has never been greater. But now

443
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: there are things like record labels and book publishers who

444
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,919
Speaker 1: are trying to redefine the value that they bring to

445
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 1: an artist like Taylor Swift. The label wasn't going to

446
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 1: organize her fans for her. She being the kind of

447
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: control freak that I think she might be over her image,

448
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 1: over her brand, over her creative control, took the reins

449
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: on that department just as much as she did artistically,

450
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: and so I think that was a really wise decision

451
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 1: on her part that she didn't have to make, you

452
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 1: know what I mean Again, I think it's an example

453
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,239
Speaker 1: of her business savvy. I totally agree on that. And

454
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 1: I also think that it takes for thought and respect

455
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,479
Speaker 1: for young women and the power that comes with female

456
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: fandom to be able to say, let me, let me

457
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: get a hold on this, let me modify it. Um.

458
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,360
Speaker 1: Not that obviously male artist young male artists haven't done

459
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 1: the same thing. From the Beatles, you know, all the

460
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 1: way to Justin Bieber, like, young women are always ahead

461
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: of the curve. They're always predicting trends. Um. Look it's

462
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: not chat for example, um all that stuff young girls predict.

463
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 1: And I think that she harnesses that power again, that

464
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: understanding of young women, and just turned it in her favor. Again,

465
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: not saying that that's a good or bad thing. Actually

466
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 1: think it's a great thing because she respects that female

467
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 1: labor and it's like I see you, and I'm going

468
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,959
Speaker 1: to make something for you. I think that's absolutely right.

469
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 1: In fact, it kind of sounds like you're talking about

470
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 1: the concept of a squad, which I want to dive

471
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,959
Speaker 1: into after we take a quick break, will be right

472
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 1: back after a word from our sponsors. So we're back

473
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 1: and we are talking through one of many people's most

474
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 1: problematic fast faive and that is Taylor Swift. Why we

475
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: love her, why she's a little problematic, and hope she

476
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 1: can be better. And we want to tackle this idea

477
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 1: of squad power. And I was actually really excited to

478
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: see Taylor go from writing about boys primarily to defining

479
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 1: herself by her girlfriends. I thought it was pretty exciting

480
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 1: to see the era of strong, powerful women being championed.

481
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: And yet there are some totally legitimate critics about her

482
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 1: use of squad at least. So what do you think

483
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: about Taylor and the era of squad? I think the

484
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 1: era of the squad illustrated that Taylor could really make

485
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: a career out of both putting women down and supporting them.

486
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: So she started her career, you know, really again in

487
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: the country music department again, even though she came from Pennsylvania.

488
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: Um was really able to ride that wave of country music.

489
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: But a lot of the songs during that time we're

490
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: kind of putting women down. UM, I don't know if

491
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: you guys sample songs that she really went from a

492
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 1: country music star from our song, which was a popular

493
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 1: favorite if you listen to it, it's going to be

494
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: stuff in your head for three days to pop star

495
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 1: which was shake it Off, which we all know and

496
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: I'm sad to admit with my ring tone for like

497
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: three months. Um. And she really did go from putting

498
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: women down from Better Than Revenge, where she compares um,

499
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: a woman who's an actress to her skills on a mattress.

500
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: You can hear that that rhyme. That's probably intentional, And

501
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: so she goes from putting women down to embracing them

502
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,959
Speaker 1: in the squad. So it's just it's it's hard to

503
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 1: watch this commodification of feminism happen through the squad, Like

504
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 1: you can't just put women down and build your career

505
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: up on that while also surrounding yourselves with a bunch

506
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: of women who you hope to exemplify parts of your

507
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: identity on like look here's Cam and look, I'm kind

508
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 1: of indie, you know, here's Lina Dunham. So I also

509
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 1: have that kind of like writer least side of me.

510
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: I guess you can do it because she did. But

511
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: I think the backlash to the squad illustrated that it's problematic.

512
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: The squad of itself is a problematic phase and to

513
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 1: quote bridget Todd, how many people are in this squad? Yeah.

514
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: I wasn't a big fan of the squad as I think,

515
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 1: you know, Alisa, I just think that squad to me

516
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: seems like it's an automatically exclusive thing, right, So if

517
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: you got a squad, my immediate first thought is who's

518
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: included and who's excluded, one of the ins and outs

519
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: of the squad. I also didn't love that people gave

520
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: her all this credit for coming up with the idea

521
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: of squad, when in fact, the term squad has had

522
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: roots and black and hip hop communities since forever. Like

523
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: Taylor Sipt did not invent the idea of squads and

524
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: squatting up. Those have been in hip hop songs for

525
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: a very long time. And that I didn't love seeing

526
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: how when she started saying squad and squad goals, it

527
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: became a thing, and it just seemed like another way

528
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: that she was able to put her sort of shiny

529
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: white girl branding on something that already existed. Yeah, and

530
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: she never gave any credit for not inventing it. She

531
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: did pularize it, but she's not. It's not like she said,

532
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: f y, I historically this is uh, you know, long

533
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: bed of thing in black culture and a hip hop

534
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: and I'm squatting up now and that's exciting you should do.

535
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: There was no acknowledgement of that. I definitely think more culturally,

536
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: we associated the idea of squad with Taylor. Whether or

537
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: not that was something that is on us or on her,

538
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: I think it's a good question, but it was just

539
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: something that I couldn't shake it off feeling a little

540
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: bit icky about. I think you're totally spot on. It

541
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: also felt triggering for a lot of women who were

542
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: bullied by women because the click culture, Like if she

543
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,719
Speaker 1: called it click, which who did that? Kanye being with

544
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: my click? Right, Yeah, that's Kanye and jay Z. It

545
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: really reminded you of that sort of caddy, this girl

546
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: culture of high school or middle school, where a pack

547
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: of roaming best girlfriends could be vicious. Yeah, a pack

548
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: of roaming, blue eyed, leggy, beautiful, popular, powerful girls. Honestly,

549
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: sometimes I feel like the only reason I don't like

550
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift it's because she reminds me of every popular

551
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: all from my high school who I was legitimately afraid of, right,

552
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: And at the same time, she's playing the outsider dork

553
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: card like I'm just I don't belong just like you,

554
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: and we're like, okay, shut up, you're perfect, you know,

555
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: like just own it, you know what I mean. That's

556
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: the frustration. I honestly going back to that, I remember

557
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: finding out that Taylor Swift drove like a luxury convertible

558
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: when she was in high school, and that was the

559
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,719
Speaker 1: first time I realized, Oh, this persona that she had

560
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: built early on in her career, where you know, she's

561
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: got the curly, frizzy hair and the glasses and I

562
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: am so nerdy. It's like, you're if you're driving a

563
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: car like that in high school, come on, like, we

564
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: all know, we all know what those social markers mean

565
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,479
Speaker 1: and what they don't mean. And I just saw her

566
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: adopting social markers that were had nothing to do with

567
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: her actual lived experience. And I remember the first time

568
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: that those two things came in conflict. Something about finding

569
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: out that she drove a luxury convertible car in high

570
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,719
Speaker 1: school just blew my mind and blew the whole thing

571
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: wide open. But she probably went to a school where

572
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: everybody did, and so she could somehow still be an

573
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: outsider dork. I mean, I'm not saying she was or wasn't,

574
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,959
Speaker 1: but in my high school, that would not have made

575
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: you an outsider dork. Now, there's one other thing we

576
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: have to talk about Taylor related that I actually thought

577
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: was a pretty awesome thing that she did, and that

578
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: was her outspoken, courageous advocacy on sexual assaults and really

579
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: standing up for victims of sexual assault, not only through

580
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: pursuing her own case, which was really a counter suit

581
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:25,959
Speaker 1: but let's let's talk about that more in a second,

582
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: but also her support of Kesha, who we know has

583
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: also been really abused by her own record label and

584
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: her own producer who she's accused of assault. Now, Taylor

585
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: Swift did not need to go through the costly, time

586
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: consuming and probably very triggering process of taking this jerk

587
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: to court, and she didn't even go out of her

588
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: way to sue this guy. She actually countersuit. So this guy,

589
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: David Mueller, is like a DJ in Denver who, during

590
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: a fan meet and greet she says, assaulted her right.

591
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: She says that he stuck his hand up her skirt

592
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: and grabbed her ass during a fan meet and greet.

593
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: She didn't sue him, but he sued her because he

594
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: ended up getting fired because she made sure that his

595
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: boss knew what had gone down. He got fired, and

596
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: he was suing Taylor Swift and her manager and parent

597
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: for back pay that he lost due to losing his job.

598
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: And to me, I would be like, oh, hell no,

599
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: I'm taking this what a Exactly he said that she

600
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: falsely accused him of assault, which is like, how much

601
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: huspah does it have to take to actually assault someone

602
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,719
Speaker 1: and then sue them for accusing you of assault and

603
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: having lost your job? That's like, just think about the

604
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: audacity of doing that to someone like Taylor Swift. So

605
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: he was suing for two point nine eight million in damages.

606
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: She countersued for one dollar and one this past August.

607
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: So I actually have nothing but respect for Taylor in

608
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: this regard. I have nothing kudos to her. I can

609
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: only imagine how many a young women out there who

610
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: have dealt with sexual assault, who have been told it's

611
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: their fault? What are you wearing? All of that nonsense

612
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: that we tell survivors of sexual assault and sex crimes

613
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: Taylor would have none of it. And I can't imagine

614
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: what it must feel like to be a young survivor

615
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: of sexual assault and watch this. I applaud her for this.

616
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: This is this is what I'm talking about. I think

617
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: that when Taylor Swift uses her platform to take a stand,

618
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: it can reverberate through the nation, through the world. And

619
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: I think somebody out there is going to have watched

620
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: that trial and watched how she didn't back down, didn't

621
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: allow herself to be shamed, didn't allow herself to be

622
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: victim blamed, and said no, something illegal happened to me,

623
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: And I am going to have my justice. Somebody out

624
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 1: there is watching that, and they're gonna go report or

625
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: they're gonna go get their justice. They're gonna hold somebody accountable.

626
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: And I think I have This is what I'm talking about.

627
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: She has this platform where she can really do so

628
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: much good when it goes right. I think with Taylor Swift,

629
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: it goes really, really, really right. Alsa, what do you think.

630
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: I thought it was really well timed because it happened

631
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: I believe in August or September, late August early September,

632
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: during back to school, and that's the month where obviously

633
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: students are going back to school and on campus rape

634
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 1: and sexual assault is usually the highest. So I thought

635
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: it came at a nice time for her to have

636
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: that message of saying, look, it's totally inappropriate to be

637
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: touched in this way. I think post Weinstein, now it's

638
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: a really interesting It's really interesting to look back at

639
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: Taylor's case post Weinstein and see how she in a

640
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: way helps set the stage for women to start calling

641
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: this gross behavior within their industry out on a national stage.

642
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: So I applaud that. Do I think she was using

643
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,760
Speaker 1: it a little bit to set the ground or set

644
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: the stage for her new album. Yeah, but I wouldn't

645
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: put it past her as a celebrity to want to

646
00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: stay relevant at any cost. Yeah. I think you're spot on.

647
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 1: And this is, like Bridget you were saying earlier, an

648
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: example of how powerful Taylor can be when she wants

649
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: to be an advocate. In a statement following the trial,

650
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: Swift actually acknowledge the symbolism behind her win and in

651
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: doing so, for the first time that I've read, really

652
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: called out her own privilege in a way that really

653
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: made me excited and think, Okay, Taylor, you're on the

654
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: right track, like maybe we can see more of this

655
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: in the future. From her, she wrote, I want to

656
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: acknowledge the privilege that I benefit from in life, in society,

657
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: and in my ability to shoulder the enormous cost of

658
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: defending myself in a trial like this. She continued, my

659
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 1: hope is to help those whose voices should also be heard. Therefore,

660
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: I'll be making donations in the near future to multiple

661
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: organizations that help sexual assault victims defend themselves. This is

662
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that's going to get me and

663
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: a Tailor Swift concert row Rocket a red lip singing

664
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,919
Speaker 1: along like I love it. Like if I could use

665
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: this as a case study for how to be an advocate,

666
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: how to how to show others how to be advocates,

667
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: I would. And I just think that what she did

668
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: was so brave and so great and so right, and

669
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: it just really goes to show the immensive power that

670
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: someone like Taylor Swift has and his whole lawsuit. And

671
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,720
Speaker 1: this great statement came almost a year after she donated

672
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 1: two dollars to KESHA, two days after a New York

673
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: judge denied Kesha a court injunction that would have allowed

674
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 1: her to record new music outside of her record label,

675
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: So the courts don't always rule in women's favor on

676
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: this issue, even if you're a famous pop star. And

677
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 1: whether she's winning and making a really profound statement like

678
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: that or watching a colleague lose and throwing some money

679
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: her way as a token of support and appreciation, this

680
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: issue is an example of Taylor walk in the feminist walk,

681
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: and we really need to see her do that in

682
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,919
Speaker 1: a more intersectional way. Well, that's what I'm saying. I'm

683
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: sure that publicly supporting Kesha over Dr Luke probably does

684
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: have negative connotations for Taylor, even somebody as powerful as

685
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: she is in the industry. And I think that the

686
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 1: fact that she did it anyway shows sometimes being a

687
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: feminist is hard, but you do it anyway. And I

688
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: just I think that what she did is exactly what

689
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: we're talking about when it comes to walking the walk.

690
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: When we come back from this next break, we're going

691
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,240
Speaker 1: to talk through some of the ways she's not always

692
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 1: walking the walk, some of the ways she can walk

693
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: that walk a lot better, especially when it comes to

694
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: race and intersectional feminism and how we hope that we

695
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,439
Speaker 1: can expect more of this kind of privilege acknowledgment and

696
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: real feminism on display from the one and only Taylor Swift.

697
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:42,800
Speaker 1: We'll be right back, and we're back, and it's time.

698
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 1: It's time to talk through some of the biggest issues

699
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: that folks rightfully have with Taylor Swift. And let's start

700
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: with this concept of her use of the white victim.

701
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 1: She sort of plays this white victim car which to me,

702
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 1: I think the narrative began around the Kanye v m

703
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: A situation when she received the award over and above

704
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 1: Queen b who we've already described and sort of as

705
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: the queen of pop. So Taylor gets on stage to

706
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: accept her award, Kanye West sort of jumps right up there,

707
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 1: takes the mic silence as her makes her look like

708
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,919
Speaker 1: the white victim. And I think she's been playing that

709
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: angle ever since. What do you think? Yeah, I think

710
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: I agree with the idea of the white victim. I

711
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: think that was one of the first examples where she

712
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 1: exposed herself as one of the most dangerous types of

713
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 1: white women. There's a great quote by a cultural critic,

714
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: Damon Young, and he said that this is a Taylor's

715
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 1: um next altercation with Kanye regarding the recordings that he

716
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: made um saying that he made that famous meeting Taylor,

717
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: And what Damon says is what Taylor did was use

718
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 1: the inherent empathy and benefit of the doubt. Her white

719
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: womanhood allows her to possess to throw a black person

720
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: under the bus if necessary and convenient. And I feel

721
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: like this, this first instance with Kanye on the v

722
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: m A stage was the first look that we got

723
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: of how she uses her victimhood as a way to

724
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 1: get things from popular culture and not kind of like

725
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: helps her brand move forward. She's a victim, she's the outsider,

726
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 1: and you can't really exploit the same system you claim

727
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 1: to be a victim of. And that's kind of my

728
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: issue with this first altercation with Kanye. Yeah, I mean

729
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: I honestly could not agree more. And I think what

730
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: you said about the idea of the benefit of the doubt,

731
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 1: that's what I think for me is one of the

732
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: things I find so frustrating about Taylor Swift is that

733
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 1: she sees this this so first of all, it's kind

734
00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 1: of one of those don't hate the player, hate the

735
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: game situation s where I think Taylor Swift sees the

736
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 1: world that we live in. She sees that Kanye West,

737
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: as a black man up against her as a white woman,

738
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: that he is going to automatically have people no matter

739
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: what he does. So I think that what he did

740
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: that vm AS was awful, but that people are going

741
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 1: to automatically be skeptical of him. And so when you

742
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 1: look at what happened between, you know, her being like, oh,

743
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 1: he had this line in a song and never talked

744
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: to me about it, and him being like, I got

745
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 1: permission from her to use this line automatically. I think

746
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:30,879
Speaker 1: that she knows, well, people are gonna believe me over

747
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: him because I'm a white woman, and I think that

748
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 1: she plays into that in a way that I find

749
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: very very uncomfortable, playing up her own victimhood over and

750
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 1: over again. I think it's something that she's really benefited from.

751
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: But I mean that Kanye West to vm a speech

752
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: that happened so long ago, and she's still like, years

753
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: and years and years later, she referenced it in her

754
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 1: her next her next time at the vim as, she

755
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: gave that speech that was partly about it. Like, I

756
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: get it that it was a traumatic, big thing that

757
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: happened to her, but I don't like the idea of

758
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: building a brand on this one thing. And once again

759
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 1: SNL sort of mirrored this when they satirized her being

760
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 1: constantly in a state of shock and awe and oh

761
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: my goodness, I won again. She sort of plays this

762
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: geeky outsider like you've mentioned earlier, Alisa, but she's anything

763
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: but right. She sort of plays the underdog because everybody

764
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 1: loves an underdog, even though we know she's not. And

765
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 1: I'll admit Kanye did victimize her when he interrupted her.

766
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 1: That was rude, right, I think Obama. President Obama called

767
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 1: him a jackass when describing Kanye's behavior. But you're right,

768
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,399
Speaker 1: She's constantly played into that because it's worked for her.

769
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: And what was the most troubling instance in which she

770
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: played that card, in my opinion, is this Twitter fight

771
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: with Nicki Minajh. So, Nikki, the nominations come out again

772
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 1: for the Best Music Video of v M a years later,

773
00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: and Nikki says, you know, she wasn't nominated. Only women

774
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: with thin bodies get nominated for these kinds of awards. Now,

775
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: if you look at the lineup of all the other nominees,

776
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,240
Speaker 1: it was Beyonce, Taylor Swift, and a couple of guys

777
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: like a bunch of guys, and so Taylor interpreted that

778
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,760
Speaker 1: as a slight against her because everything is about her. Well, actually,

779
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: if you think of the I think it was a

780
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 1: rational conclusion. But she missed the point. She thought she

781
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 1: was being called out because she mentioned slim white women's bodies.

782
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 1: The only slim white woman in that category was her, Taylor.

783
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 1: She didn't actually say white. She didn't know, but she

784
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: did say, so it's I think that's a fair and

785
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: I think that's a fair reading between the lines. But

786
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 1: here's my thing, Nicki Majaj about her. Nicki Minaj wasn't

787
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: calling out Taylor Swift. Nicki Minaj was calling out white supremacy,

788
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: and Taylor Swift, in her mind thinks this is about

789
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: me and it's not about her, And I think that's

790
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 1: what for me, that's what it comes down to, not

791
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 1: everything is about you winning and women's supporting women and

792
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 1: all that. Nicki Minaj had a right, you rightfully call

793
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: out the ways that white supremacy play out in our

794
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: entertainment industry. If you have eyes, you see it. It's

795
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: not it's not a surprise, not a secret. The fact

796
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: that Taylor Swift cannot see that for what it is,

797
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 1: I think is a real problem and really highlights the

798
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 1: fact that Taylor Swift is not maybe read in on

799
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: these issues. And now, of course, I mean, it would

800
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 1: be great if Taylor Swift was just like a woke

801
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 1: fighter for social change, so like, you know, it'll be great,

802
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 1: but no, one, she doesn't have to be like she's

803
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,879
Speaker 1: doing her thing fine, But to try to wade into

804
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:29,919
Speaker 1: it when a black woman is talking about a white

805
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: supremacy plays out on her industry and making it about her,

806
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: that is textbook like victimized the white woman well and

807
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: beyond that, she used feminism as a weapon in her response.

808
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: She said, it's unlike you, Nikki, to tear other women down.

809
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: So she tried to play this holier than thou I'm

810
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 1: a better feminist than you are card when it was

811
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,879
Speaker 1: clearly not about her, When it was not about her,

812
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 1: but she totally missed the mark on it. And in

813
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: critiquing Nikki getting in a fight with Nikki, I think

814
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: a lot of observers were like, oh my god, some

815
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:05,720
Speaker 1: of my favorite badass women artists are fighting. God, please

816
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: get it over it. And to be fair, not to

817
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: defend that move, because that was so ignorant of Taylor.

818
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: But she did come around saying, and I quote, I

819
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: thought I was being called out. I missed the point,

820
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: I misunderstood, then misspoke. I am sorry, Nikki, And like

821
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 1: nobody's perfect, nobody's born woke, right. I think that was

822
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 1: a tough moment, but I'm I'm relatively pleased with how

823
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,919
Speaker 1: she came around. What do you think at least? Yeah?

824
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: I agree, and Bridget You've mentioned this one, but that

825
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: instance of Taylor being the victim of Nikki's what she

826
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 1: interpreted as shade is so similar to the examples of

827
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 1: black women speaking out and white women being offended because

828
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: they're saying an opinion that has very little to do

829
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,919
Speaker 1: with them, it's about some larger issue, but white woman

830
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: being offended by it and not as something that has

831
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:04,240
Speaker 1: followed feminism and the historical struggle for representation and rights

832
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 1: and access and just like trying to be a person

833
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: in the world. That is something that has like followed

834
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: that struggle to just be a human, and Taylor just

835
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: didn't get it, she didn't see it, and it was

836
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 1: just such an odd copy paste of history where it

837
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: was just repeating itself in social media now Taylor comes

838
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 1: from privilege, which we have unpacked already. So you know,

839
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,800
Speaker 1: is it shocking and surprising that a white, skinny, blonde

840
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: woman who comes from a very, very wealthy family isn't

841
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: read up on women and gender and race studies? One

842
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,839
Speaker 1: oh one. No, she didn't go to college. This is

843
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,720
Speaker 1: not like the person who are we are going to

844
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 1: learn about social movements from. However, one would think that

845
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 1: that access the privilege would also buy you. I don't

846
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: know some cultural understanding of like how things work amongst women,

847
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: and I don't think that feminism is useful if it's

848
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 1: only for white, privileged, blonde, skinny women. Like it's not

849
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 1: just about being nice to people all the time, it's

850
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 1: calling stuff like this out. And I think that that

851
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: was a missed opportunity for Taylor to be an ally

852
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: to Nikki and not just feel like you're hurting me.

853
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: That's mean, girl. You could not I mean, I could

854
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: not have put it better myself. I do I think

855
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: as one as a black woman who hosts a podcasts

856
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 1: about feminism that has a lot of white women listeners,

857
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,439
Speaker 1: I totally see this play out all the time, every day,

858
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 1: all day, every day, where if you call something out

859
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 1: or you you talk about a frustration that you have.

860
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: Oftentimes it can feel like white women don't want to

861
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: hear it, or it's like it hurts their feelings or

862
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: defends them, and it feels like you can't actually speak

863
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: your truth because you don't want to offend Taylor Swift

864
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 1: or whatever. And again, I mean, when I saw that

865
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: interaction happened on Twitter, I thought Taylor Swift might genuinely

866
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 1: think that feminism is being nice to Taylor Swift and

867
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,760
Speaker 1: if something includes being mean to Taylor Swift, not feminist

868
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 1: And that that interaction made me think that feminism is

869
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: just supporting and uplifting Taylor Swift and if feminism doesn't

870
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: look like that, then it's not feminism. And I think

871
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 1: that's what she was accusing Nikki. Oh yeah, And I

872
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: think Nikki put it perfectly by saying, this is something

873
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: you should speak out about. She responded to Taylor saying, like,

874
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 1: I wasn't talking about you. I don't know where you

875
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: got that from, but this is a problem that's bigger

876
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,280
Speaker 1: than you, and it's something you should speak out about.

877
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 1: Did she know she apologized she came around. She's had

878
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 1: her own awokening it seems a few days later on Twitter.

879
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 1: But has she taken up that mantle now? Has she

880
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 1: fought for diversity in music? Now? Has she made race

881
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 1: a part of her things that she fights for? No,

882
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,720
Speaker 1: she hasn't, And I would like to see that change totally.

883
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: And I think that's a really important part of this

884
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: conversation because I don't think feminism is that big of

885
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 1: a movement at this point where we can be revoking

886
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: people's feminist cards. We can't exactly start turning people away.

887
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: So like, we're very happy to have chiller Swiss in

888
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,720
Speaker 1: in our ranks and in our army. However, like calling

889
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 1: each other out is part of what being a feminist is.

890
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,760
Speaker 1: And so if she's going to get on her stage

891
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: and on her platform and call herself a feminist and

892
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: use it as a marketing tool, she's relying on a

893
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 1: social movement that women have fought for representation and access

894
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,399
Speaker 1: to write, money, personhood. If you're going to use that

895
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: to sell stuff back to people, you better be aware

896
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,720
Speaker 1: of the foundation on which you're building your house, because

897
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: you're building it on the backs of men and women

898
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 1: who have fought hard for that stuff, And you better

899
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: understand the language that you're speaking in, just like she

900
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: understood the language she speaks to young girl then when

901
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: she started her career. Yeah, I mean that's exactly what

902
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:49,280
Speaker 1: I think that my biggest issue is with her. Nobody

903
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: is forcing her to use feminism as this marketing tool.

904
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 1: No one is saying you have to be a feminist,

905
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 1: have to talk about feminism and squad and this and that.

906
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 1: She's made a choice that that is something that she's

907
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: going to be about. You can't just take that up.

908
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 1: It's not just a costume and you're gonna talk the

909
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 1: talking about to walk the walk. Sometimes being a feminist

910
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: isn't fun. Sometimes being a feminist means being called a

911
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 1: feminist kill joy or a social justice warrior or taking

912
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: up causes. It's not very fun or luquid. It's to

913
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 1: take up. Sometimes it's hard work. Sometimes it's hell. But

914
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 1: you know you're calling yourself a feminist, you better Dan

915
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 1: Well be ready to walk that walk. And I don't

916
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 1: think you're doing that. And if you really think about her,

917
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: embrace the feminism is relatively new. Back in twelve, she

918
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: said she wasn't a feminist because, quote, I don't really

919
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: think about things as guys versus girls. Luckily, it seems

920
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: that squad member Lena Dunham took her under her wing

921
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: and uh had a little chat with her. Hopefully, Nikki

922
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 1: took her under her wing and said let's talk about

923
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 1: intersectional feminism. A few years later, but she evolved, like

924
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 1: so many women do, to realize that, as she put it, quote,

925
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 1: I didn't quite understand that saying you're a feminist is

926
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: just saying that you hope women and men will have

927
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,040
Speaker 1: equal rights and equal opportunities. So she come around and

928
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 1: come out as a feminist. Yes, but you know, as

929
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: Jill Philipovic wrote for The Washington Post, feminism is more

930
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 1: than just supporting your girl friends and churning out charming

931
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 1: catch phrases about girl power. I actually liked seeing the

932
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 1: evolution of her going from I'm not a feminist to

933
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: embracing it. I actually like seeing how that can happen

934
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 1: in real time and following celebrities as they grapple with

935
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 1: these issues, because you know, my me coming to commons

936
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: with a feminist was a journey. I'm sure it was

937
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,320
Speaker 1: a journey for all of us. And I actually applaud

938
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: her for not, like, you know, dying on the Hill

939
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 1: of anti feminism for saying, actually, it turns out that

940
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: feminism is a cool thing, and I am a feminist

941
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 1: after all, and showing that, like you can make that transition,

942
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 1: and really, you know, it's not very feminist of her.

943
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,839
Speaker 1: Bridget was this past election cycle when we were kind

944
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,839
Speaker 1: of counting on feminist we were kind of counting on

945
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 1: white women in particular to uh come out and vote,

946
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: and to come out and vote for the candidate who

947
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,240
Speaker 1: was going to make life a little easier on all women,

948
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 1: the candidate who did not rag about that the assaulting women.

949
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 1: That one one where the hell was Taylor Swift in sixteen?

950
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: If I told you the amount of time I have

951
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,240
Speaker 1: spent thinking, writing, researching, and talking about who Taylor Swift

952
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,879
Speaker 1: voted for, it would blow your mind. You would be like,

953
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: there's like strings and paper on my apartment wall where

954
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 1: I've got charts, and I'm like crossing this to this

955
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 1: on this day. She said this, like I'm down a

956
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 1: rabbit hole of trying to figure this out. And here's

957
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,240
Speaker 1: the thing, when all these other members of her squad,

958
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,479
Speaker 1: Lena Dunham, Oh, Katy Perry is not exactly a member

959
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 1: of her squad, but she was stumping like crazy for Hillary. Yeah,

960
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:37,839
Speaker 1: when you have all these other prominent young women not

961
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 1: just saying go out and vote, but being an advocate

962
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 1: for voting for somebody that you really really believe in.

963
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 1: I was like, where was Taylor. It would have taken

964
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 1: something subtle, right, Like, I know that she has this

965
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: country fan base. Maybe she doesn't want to alienate them.

966
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:53,800
Speaker 1: I totally totally get it. And I'm not saying that

967
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 1: you have to that. I expect the people to go

968
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: out and be Rara, you know, stumping for Hillary Clinton

969
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: or whatever. But I do think that it wouldn't be

970
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 1: the worst thing in the world to say, you know what,

971
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: I'm met down with people who rag about sexual assault.

972
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 1: You know who did that, Donald Trump. I was running

973
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: for president, Donald Trump. Yeah. It was just noticeably mute, right.

974
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 1: It was a noticeable anomaly in terms of her brand

975
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:22,760
Speaker 1: of being ra Ra feminism, ra Ra squad, but not

976
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 1: at all touching politics. And it seems like it's one

977
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 1: thing to abstain from going political, even in our climate

978
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 1: where all celebrity work is basically becoming political, and it

979
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 1: feels like our idols and politics have merged in a

980
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:42,799
Speaker 1: way recently, that's very new. But it's another thing to

981
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 1: be the poster child of the Aryan supporters, like the

982
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 1: Aryan race, like the neo Nazi movement, and to say nothing, Well,

983
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: that might sound like a huge exaggeration, but if you

984
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 1: google Taylor Swift and Nazis, that's actually exactly what's going on.

985
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: So if you don't know this kind of a weird

986
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 1: thing on the Internet, it is that Taylor Swift has

987
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:05,439
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, been embraced as this Aryan goddess by

988
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: literal Nazis and white supremacists. And this is something that

989
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: is taken over the Internet. There are so much subculture

990
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:14,280
Speaker 1: is dedicated to it. And actually The Daily Bees published

991
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 1: an article earlier this year with the headline it's time

992
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: for Taylor Swift to denounce her Neo Nazi admirers. So,

993
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 1: according to Andre Anglin, who is the writer of the

994
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 1: white supremacist blogs the Daily Stormer, he says, first, Taylor

995
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: Swift is a pure Aryan goddess, like something out of

996
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: a classical Greek poem Athena Reborn. That's the most important thing.

997
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: It is also an established fact that Taylor Swift is

998
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 1: secretly a Nazi, and it's simply waiting for the right time.

999
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 1: When Donald Trump makes it safe for her to come

1000
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,320
Speaker 1: out and announce her Ariaan agenda to the world, probably

1001
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: she will be be truth to Trump's son and they

1002
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 1: will be crowned American royalty. So if this is out

1003
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 1: on a leading white nationalist website and you're and you

1004
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:55,240
Speaker 1: don't say anything, I think it's a problem. Maybe she's thinking,

1005
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 1: I don't even want to give attention to it, but

1006
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 1: it's out there. Yeah, I mean, there's gotta be a

1007
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 1: lot of crazy stuff that's said about you when you're

1008
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: that famous, and picking and choosing what to respond to

1009
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:08,880
Speaker 1: is not easy. But given the climate, given what's happening,

1010
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 1: given the violence, giving Charlottesville, given this election, to stay mute,

1011
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:15,839
Speaker 1: I mean, how do you do that when you're as

1012
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 1: influential as she is. Choosing to sit out an election

1013
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: like two thou sixteen is one thing, but choosing to

1014
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 1: sit out an opportunity to proclaim your values and take

1015
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: action on your values. I mean it's like she's taking polls,

1016
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. She seems like the most

1017
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 1: hyper calculated candidate out there, like she will pull before

1018
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 1: she decides what to speak out against. Definitely. And I

1019
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 1: don't think that speaking out against Nazis should be a

1020
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 1: controversial thing, and yet I think it might be. Right now,

1021
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 1: I think most of what's problematic about Taylor all boils

1022
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 1: down to racial issues, really and truly, if you look

1023
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 1: at the cultural appropriation conversation around her use of those

1024
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 1: sort of nameplate earrings and twerking in Shake It Off

1025
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,279
Speaker 1: the music video, some people said, well, it's at the

1026
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 1: same as really co opting black culture because she was

1027
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 1: sort of parroting it. I'm not sure it's that argument

1028
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 1: really stands, but I kind of get it right. She

1029
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 1: wasn't trying to say, look at me, I'm I'm I'm

1030
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 1: Miley Cyrus. I'm actually using black culture to be cool.

1031
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 1: She was saying, like, look at me trying on all

1032
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 1: these different genres. Haha, aren't I a dork? You know,

1033
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 1: different but still not cool? A little cringe E. It's

1034
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 1: cringe E. And I think for me why it's cringe

1035
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: E is that it really highlights something that I race

1036
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 1: not withstand. They have a problem with her is that

1037
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:34,359
Speaker 1: she often makes a show of how like adorably bad

1038
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: she is at things like, oh, I'm in front of

1039
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: all these black professional dancers who are doing a great

1040
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 1: job of dancing and I don't know what I'm doing.

1041
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 1: Isn't that funny? And it's like, maybe it is a

1042
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 1: racialized thing because I don't think that people of color

1043
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 1: get the same leeway to bask in their own expressions

1044
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 1: of mediocrity. And Taylor Swift does that sometimes and it

1045
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 1: drives me nuts. Yes, yes, basking in their expressions of

1046
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: media acrity. I love that because her whole thing is

1047
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 1: you know, adorable, right, Yeah, I don't like it, Yeah,

1048
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 1: I totally get it. The most problematic, the most problematic

1049
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 1: expression of cultural appropriation one on one is Google Wildest Dreams.

1050
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 1: That video I think went nowhere in part because people

1051
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 1: were so horrified that, oh my gosh, is she romanticizing

1052
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: African colonialism? Yes, folks, Yes, indeed she's on the African

1053
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 1: planes okay, sort of allah colonial occupation days. And it

1054
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: looks like a magical love story and it's just like,

1055
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: are you kidding me? I mean, I almost this was

1056
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 1: so bad. I almost felt bad for her because I'm thinking,

1057
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 1: where where was that? Like someone in her team left

1058
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: up that this got out there right, Like this was

1059
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:55,239
Speaker 1: a breach of some sort of system. She should have

1060
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 1: someone in her team who's like pulled her aside, and

1061
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:00,120
Speaker 1: it's like, girl is the mistake control? I almost like

1062
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,280
Speaker 1: something there was no quality control. There was a failure

1063
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 1: of something in her team, and I feel bad that

1064
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 1: she got got duped by it or something. It's not good.

1065
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 1: And then even the most recent video are You Ready

1066
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:15,839
Speaker 1: For It um, which we've sort of abstained from talking

1067
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 1: about our feelings about her latest musical release, mainly because

1068
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: we don't have very nice things to say. And I'm

1069
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:25,360
Speaker 1: ready for the whole album. I'm like looking forward to

1070
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 1: maybe maybe it'll get better. But music aside, the video

1071
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 1: Are You Ready For It has graffiti, layden, urban sort

1072
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,440
Speaker 1: of scenes that are very little Tokyo esque. There's actual

1073
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 1: characters on the walls, and it just feels a little

1074
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 1: bit like she's maybe headed in a Miley Cyrus Bangers

1075
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 1: direction because she's basically rapping in a video Taylor is

1076
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 1: left rapping. I don't wanna It's not good. It's not good.

1077
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 1: It's just like, why do you have to do the

1078
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 1: race thing? Why do you have to cross those lines

1079
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 1: to be cool? You don't have to white women alert,

1080
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 1: You do not need to pretend to be black in

1081
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 1: order to come across as cool. Yeah, and she's so

1082
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 1: as we said earlier, she's so talented in other ways,

1083
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 1: Like she didn't need to pretend to work or pretend

1084
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 1: to wrap to make a good song. In fact, I

1085
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 1: would say doing that as a gimmicky and in terms

1086
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 1: of your song won't be good. I think that she

1087
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 1: should focus on her real talent and not trying to

1088
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 1: be something she's not for a weird gimmick or joke,

1089
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 1: maybe as retaliation. Maybe sometimes playing to your critics instead

1090
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 1: of playing to your fans will take you in a

1091
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,440
Speaker 1: bad direction. Just a thought, just an artistic musing. But

1092
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 1: here's the thing. Is she on the same level as

1093
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 1: Miley Cyrus in terms of white girl fail? Oh no?

1094
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 1: In my book, no, I haven't adopted a culture and

1095
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 1: then denounced that same culture. You know, And honestly, I

1096
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 1: can forgive a few slip ups here and there if

1097
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 1: you're someone who is genuinely seems like you're interested in

1098
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 1: being thoughtful and curious and willing to learn and learn

1099
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 1: and grow. And so I think I see that in

1100
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift in a way that maybe I don't see

1101
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 1: in Miley Cyrus, I agree completely, and so I want

1102
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 1: to wrap this up by saying, this is a tough

1103
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 1: episode to pass through. This is a tough conversation. We're

1104
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 1: so glad to have you a Lisa joining us for

1105
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: this one, because it's not easy to really break down

1106
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 1: an artist like Taylor Swift, who is so impressive, so influential,

1107
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 1: so talented and fraught. And it is okay, listeners, just

1108
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 1: as a reminder, is actually okay to have problematic faiths.

1109
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 1: It is okay to love their work and hold them

1110
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:29,160
Speaker 1: to a high moral standard. And like you said, bridget

1111
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 1: to see and hope that they learn and grow so

1112
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 1: we can all learn and grow together. Yeah. I don't

1113
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 1: want to make it sound like I hate Taylor Swift.

1114
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 1: I'm just not her biggest fan. And I think the

1115
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 1: reason why I'm not her biggest fan is because I

1116
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 1: see her using feminism in ways that honestly remind me

1117
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 1: of myself many many years ago, and I want her

1118
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 1: to be better. I wanted to be a role model

1119
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 1: for all the other young women out there like myself

1120
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 1: who were still finding their feminists footing, and I want

1121
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 1: her to model how we can all be more inclusive

1122
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 1: feminists and I think she has this amazing platform. She's

1123
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 1: this amazing talented person who has harnessed the energy of

1124
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 1: young women and validated them in ways that frankly, they

1125
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:11,320
Speaker 1: don't really get validated a lot. And I think that

1126
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 1: she could just tweak some things and refine that and

1127
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:15,439
Speaker 1: really get there. And that's what I want to see

1128
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 1: for her. I just want to reiterate that I think

1129
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 1: being a fan of Taylor Swift and being a critic

1130
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 1: of Taylor Swift it's part and parcel of the same fandom.

1131
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: So if I came off maybe as a little bit

1132
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 1: critical of Taylor, really it comes from a place that

1133
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:31,600
Speaker 1: I want to see her embrace and use the platform

1134
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 1: in the stage that she has created for herself for

1135
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 1: a broader and a more intersectional purpose. I think that

1136
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 1: everyone would benefit. UM. But I also think that we're

1137
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 1: at this cultural moment where we just can't trust white women.

1138
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 1: Can't trust white women to come out and vote for

1139
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 1: and support other women, we can't trust white women on juries,

1140
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 1: and we can't trust white women to lead a lot

1141
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 1: of companies. UM. And that's because white women have repeatedly

1142
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 1: ignored conversations of race and us and gender and sexuality,

1143
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 1: all the stuff that you guys so awesomely talk about

1144
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 1: and dig into on the podcast, And we're at this

1145
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 1: historical moment where those conversations feel most vital and most

1146
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 1: important to our national conversation. And I think Taylor has

1147
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 1: at a great moment in her career and in her

1148
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:23,360
Speaker 1: platform to help us have those really hard conversations. And

1149
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 1: by the way, that's the role of a pop star.

1150
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 1: A pop star or a celebrity really helps us negotiate

1151
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:32,200
Speaker 1: our identity in troubled times. If you look back at

1152
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 1: all the celebrities who have been able to withstand cultural changes,

1153
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 1: the ones who are able to join that conversation are

1154
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 1: the ones that stay relevant. So I hope the Taylor

1155
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:47,840
Speaker 1: Swift can be able to help us. And we're the

1156
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:49,920
Speaker 1: ones who put a pop in popular culture, We're the

1157
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 1: ones who make popular culture. We as fans look to

1158
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 1: celebrities like Taylor to make sense of the world, ourselves,

1159
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 1: and our identities. And I just want to see Taylor

1160
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 1: help us reconcile all those contradictions of our culture and

1161
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 1: this weird, bizarre time that we live in, because that's

1162
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 1: how she stays relevant, and I want to see her

1163
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 1: stay relevant, Elsa. It is such a pleasure to have

1164
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 1: you on today. Thank you so much for helping us

1165
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 1: wade through the waters of Taylor Swift our problematic Save Alisa.

1166
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 1: Where can folks find out more about what you're up to? Yeah,

1167
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 1: so I'm on Instagram at pop culture Pirates. On Twitter,

1168
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 1: I'm at pop cult Pirates because pop Culture Pirate was

1169
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 1: too long, and you can hit me up on Facebook

1170
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:33,640
Speaker 1: at Elisa Chrissinger my full name, um and if you

1171
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:36,919
Speaker 1: are interested in hearing Bridget and I deep dive more

1172
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:40,320
Speaker 1: on this topic on Taylor Swift and Problematic Base, you

1173
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 1: can listen to strong Opinions Loosely Held, where we also

1174
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:45,920
Speaker 1: go into a bunch of pop culture topics from a

1175
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 1: feminist perspective, UM like y h G TV explains America

1176
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:54,280
Speaker 1: and a bunch of other fun pop culture conversation. So

1177
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:56,200
Speaker 1: I hope to see some of you guys over there.

1178
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely so we want to hear from usmnty listeners. What

1179
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 1: are your feelings on Taylor Swift? Do you find some

1180
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 1: of what she says problematic? Do you hope for a

1181
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 1: more woke Taylor Swift? Perhaps, do we hope for Taylor

1182
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 1: Swift that comes around, finds her feminist footing, and especially

1183
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 1: is better when it comes to race and intersectional feminism.

1184
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 1: We want to hear from you, and I hope we're

1185
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:21,640
Speaker 1: not alone in this because this is a tough one

1186
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 1: and it's here for you. So I finally stopped dragging

1187
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 1: my feet and we went and did it. So send

1188
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 1: us a tweet at mom Stuff Podcast, find us on

1189
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:32,440
Speaker 1: Instagram at stuff mom Never Told You, or send us

1190
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 1: an email if you've got to unpack even a lengthier

1191
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:49,560
Speaker 1: thought at mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com.