WEBVTT - #167 Wrongful Conviction: Junk Science - Roadside Drug Test Evidence 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:03.800 You're sitting in the passenger seat of your car, staring 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:07.280 out the window. Your boyfriend is driving, and you look 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:10.160 over at him. You can tell that he's getting tired. 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:14.440 It's been a long day. You left Louisiana five hours 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:18.720 ago and he's been driving the entire time. You're going 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:21.120 to Houston, where he has an interview for a job 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:24.119 on an oil rig. You find the monotony of the 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:28.040 drive to be somewhat calming. It's a big difference from 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:31.280 your usual day to day of running around doing your 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:34.599 job and taking care of your teenage son who has 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:38.440 special needs. Of course, you love your kids and your 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:41.760 job is great, but for the first time in a while, 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.879 you feel yourself really relaxing, and you're happy to have 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:48.120 nothing to do or worry about for the next couple 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:52.400 of days. When you finally get to the motel in Houston, 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:56.880 you're both exhausted. You dump your suitcases at the foot 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:59.680 of the bed, and you're tempted to skip dinner and 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:02.440 just stay in for the rest of the night, but 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:04.520 you don't want your boyfriend to go to bed on 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.839 an empty stomach, so you both get back in the car, 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:11.160 grab some hamburgers from a fast food drive through and 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:16.720 then start heading straight back to the motel. Your boyfriend 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.120 rubs his eyes when he changes lanes, and out of 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:24.920 nowhere you see blue and red lights flashing behind your 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:38.440 car and a siren blaring. You look up and watch 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.440 in the rear view mirror as a police officer slowly 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:46.759 walks up to the driver's side window. License some registration. 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.160 You rummage in the glove compartment for the registration. Well, 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:55.920 what's the problem, officer, your boyfriend asks, no signal wall 0:01:56.000 --> 0:02:00.280 changing lanes, You hand the registration to your boyfriend, who 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:05.600 in turn hands it to the officer. License. The officer says, again, 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:12.960 Your boyfriend holds tight onto the steering wheel. I don't 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:17.520 have a license, sir. Please step out of the vehicle. 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:22.600 Your boyfriend gets out, closing the door behind him. The 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.800 officer sticks his head into the car window and looks around. 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:30.520 He never makes eye contact with you. Then the officer 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:33.520 steps away from your car and calls out to his partner, 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:37.200 who's sitting in the police car. There's a needle in here, 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:43.799 the officer says, excuse me, what are you talking about. 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.800 You have no idea what the officer thinks he saw, 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:51.200 but you certainly did not have any kind of needle 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:55.720 in your car. The cop ignores your question and walks 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:58.960 over to the passenger window. Ma'am, I'm gonna need your 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:02.399 consent to sirch the car, and I'll tell you right now. 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:05.040 You don't consent, we're gonna be sitting here a long 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:07.240 time until we can get a canine out here to 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.880 sweep the car. You don't have anything to hide, so 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:14.720 you say, yeah, okay, go ahead. You stand on the 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:16.960 side of the road with your boyfriend in the thick 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:21.639 Texas heat while both officers search the car. A few 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:25.320 minutes later, the first officer stands up straight. It looks 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:29.200 like he's pinching something between his index finger and his thumb, 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:33.040 and he's holding it up to the moonlight. You can't 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:35.200 see what it is, but you see that. The officer 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:40.040 says something to his partner, who then comes over to you. Man, 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.440 we have reason to believe that there's crack cocaine in 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:47.520 your car, the officer says. He tells you both to 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.960 put your hands behind your back. He starts cuffing your 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:56.680 boyfriend and you're adrenaline starts pumping. You're sweating now and 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:59.680 you can't tell if it's the ninety degree heat or 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.840 if it's pure nerves and anxiety. As the officer tightens 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:07.560 the cuffs painfully around your wrist, you have the wrong 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.440 idea here. I don't have drugs in my car. I 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:15.200 don't do drugs. I've never done drugs. One officer walks 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:18.480 over to you and then takes you to the police car. 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:22.479 The other one opens up the trunk. He takes out 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:25.280 something that looks like a zip lock baggie, then walks 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:28.880 back over to you. He opens the bag and pulls 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:32.320 out a test tube. Then he takes what he's been 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.200 pinching between his fingers and drops it into the tube. 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:39.640 He shakes it around, looks at it. Then he looks 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:43.719 at you, and a wide grin creeps across his face. 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:47.839 He waves the tube right in front of your nose. 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:51.919 A liquid that seems to change from red to blue 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:55.920 and the flashing lights is dangled in front of you. 0:04:55.920 --> 0:05:01.000 You're busted, ma'am, the cop says. The take you to jail. 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.800 Your boyfriend is charged with driving without a license and 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:08.560 is released soon after. But you don't know that yet 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:11.719 because you're placed in a tiny holding cell with one 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:15.640 other woman who tells you that she murdered someone. You're 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:20.880 feeling sick, and you still haven't eaten all day. You're terrified, 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:24.920 but you're not just worried about yourself. You're really worried 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:31.080 about your son. Someone calls your name from a thick 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:34.400 plastic window that separates you from the people working at 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:37.480 the jail. You walk up to the window and see 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:41.000 a tired looking man on the other side. He introduces 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:45.640 himself as the court appointed defense attorney. He tells you 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:49.360 you're being charged for possession of crack cocaine. Look, this 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.680 is a felony, he says, and you're facing two years 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:59.919 in stay prison. You're in disbelief. Jesus, how is this possible. 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:04.159 The attorney looks down at his papers and says, look, 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.240 you have a choice. It's not much of a choice, 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:10.279 but you do have a choice. The prosecutor is offering 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:13.840 you a plea deal. If you plead guilty, you'll get 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:16.480 a forty five day sentence in jail, and you'll probably 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:20.880 only have to serve half of that. You say, I'm innocent. 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:24.240 I'm not going to plead guilty to something I didn't do. 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:28.560 The defense attorney kind of leans in a little bit 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:33.360 and looks at you through his wire rim glasses and says, ma'am. 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.320 They tested the substance they found on the floor of 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:39.599 your car and it came up positive for crack cocaine. 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:43.560 So according to this test, there was crack in your car. 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:47.440 Now you can wait until the forensics lab runs another 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:50.560 test on it, but there's a huge backlog. You could 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:54.200 wait months for that test to come back. You begin 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:58.039 to physically shake. You're on the verge of bursting out 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:01.840 in tears right there in the middle of the jail. 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:06.279 You think about your options. Months in jail, waiting for 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:10.440 the evidence that will prove your innocent, two years in 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:14.080 prison if it doesn't, And can you even trust the 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:16.520 test if the one that they did on the side 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:18.840 of the road was clearly wrong. I mean there was 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:22.440 no crack in your car. You think about your youngest 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:25.640 son and you're terrified of what's going to happen if 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:30.240 you can't get out of your fast. He really needs you. 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:34.080 You work managing an apartment complex. Part of your compensation 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:36.000 is that you get to live in an apartment in 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:38.880 the building that you manage. It at least allows you 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:42.440 to stay close to your son at all times. Right now, 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:45.640 he's with his dad. But if you're stuck here for months, 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:49.960 or god forpid years, you'll lose your job, your home, 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:54.000 the safety net for you and your kid. The decision 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:57.480 is basically made for you. You can't sit in prison 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:00.920 for months. You have to get out and get out 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:05.040 as quickly as you can. The next thing you know, 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.520 you're standing in front of a judge. You can't stop trembling, 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:17.200 You're weeping uncontrollably, you can barely breathe. Somehow, when the 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:21.200 judge asks you, how do you plead, you force out 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:28.120 the words I plead guilty. They take you back to 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.240 a cell where you'll serve twenty one days of the 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:35.240 forty five day sentence. You are given the prosecutor files 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:37.880 a motion for the evidence in your case to be destroyed. 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:42.600 After twenty one days, you're let out of jail. Your 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:47.360 worst fears have been realized. You've been fired, you've been 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:50.560 kicked out of your apartment. You don't know where most 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:54.199 of your belongings are, and you don't know where to turn. 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.000 The story you just heard is based on the true 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:05.120 events of Amy Albritton's wrongful conviction that resulted from a 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:10.720 roadside drug test. Somehow, the prosecutor's order to destroy the 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:15.719 evidence never got signed off on, and that substance they 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:18.920 found in her car that they claim tested positive for 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:23.600 crack cocaine it turned out to be a food crumb. 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:29.640 Based on the junk science of roadside drug testing. The 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:32.920 steady life that Amy built for herself and her family 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:40.360 was completely turned upside down. And Amy isn't the only one. 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:45.040 I'm Josh Dubin civil rights and criminal defense attorney, an 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:49.040 innocent ambassador to the Innocence Project in New York. Today, 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:54.520 on Wrongful Conviction junk Science, we explore roadside drug testing. 0:09:55.960 --> 0:10:00.360 Turns out these faulty tests, which cost police departments two 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:03.959 dollars a piece or less, are widely used across the 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:08.400 United States. They caused countless people to plead guilty to 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:12.880 crimes they didn't commit. These tests continued to be used 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:17.079 despite scientific evidence that proves just how ineffective they are. 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.160 In nineteen seventy three, during the height of the War 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:35.280 on Drugs in the United States, a chemist by the 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:38.959 name of L. J. Scott Jr. Was tasked with creating 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:43.800 a test that could confirm the presence of cocaine. Now 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:47.160 Scott was already aware of one chemical that was being 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:50.720 used to test for cocaine, but the problem was it 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:54.800 was highly unreliable. This faulty test was made up of 0:10:54.840 --> 0:11:00.720 a pink liquid, a chemical called cobalt thiocyanate. When cocaine 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:04.280 was added to this pink liquid, it turned blue, and 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:08.439 so the thinking went, whenever the pink liquid turns blue, 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:11.600 we could know if there is cocaine present. But the 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:15.680 problem was that it wasn't only cocaine, but plenty of 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:20.880 other substances that could also turn this pink chemical blue. 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:23.360 So Scott set out to work on creating a more 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:28.520 accurate test. He experimented with other chemicals, and finally he 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:32.320 came up with a three step test. Here's how it worked. 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:38.320 A small sealable bag contained three vials of chemicals. First, 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:42.160 the substance suspected to be cocaine was added to the 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.600 first vial that contained the same pink chemical as the 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:51.360 original test, cobalt thiocyanate. If that urn blue, it meant 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:56.439 the substance might be cocaine. Then the vial was placed 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.719 into the small bag with the other two vials. The 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.520 first vial was broken open, so the liquid contents would 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:05.920 leave the vial and sit at the bottom of the 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:10.720 transparent bag. Then the second vial would be broken open. 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:16.880 This vial contained a second chemical, hydrochloric acid, that was 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:19.760 supposed to mix with the first chemical and turn the 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:24.320 substance pink again. Then the third vial would be broken. 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:29.400 This final vial was filled with chloroform. If the liquid 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:32.320 mixture at the bottom of the bag split into two 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:35.800 layers so that a pink liquid floated to the top 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:40.280 and blue sank to the bottom, Scott said this confirmed 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:45.680 that the substance being tested was indeed cocaine. After working 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:48.720 on the test for nine months, Scott was so sure 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:52.640 of it that he declared the method proposed herein is 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:57.600 almost impossible to misinterpret. It is highly sensitive and specific. 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:02.839 Officers started carrying these portable roadside drug tests on them 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:07.079 while they patrolled neighborhoods and pulled people over for traffic violations. 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:11.880 They started using the tests on people suspected of possessing drugs, 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:16.960 and the arrest started flooding in. But this test turned 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.280 out to be not quite as full proof as Scott thought. 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:24.720 A study by toxicologists found that the three vile tests 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:30.960 would also show positive results for substances other than cocaine. Lytocane, 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:34.400 for example, a common numbing agent found in many first 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:40.600 aid kits used to soothe cuts and burns, also tested positive. Nevertheless, 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:44.199 Scott started his own company that sold drug test kits 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:49.959 to law enforcement. This company still exists today, and interestingly enough, 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:54.760 he stopped selling the kits with the three vile process. Instead, 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:58.440 he went back to the one step process, the test 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:01.880 with just the pink liquid that was already known to 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:05.880 be faulty, and to test positive for so many other substances. 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:09.240 He did this so that he could sell them for 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:14.200 less money, and they were a hit, and he expanded 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:21.840 beyond cocaine tests. His company also sells tests for opiates, MDMA, marijuana, LSD, 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:26.440 bath salts, and meth amphetamine. His website boasts that the 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:30.360 tests coming easy to use cheap packaging that prevents officers 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:34.920 from cutting their fingers while breaking the vials. When interviewed 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:38.240 by reporters from Pro Publica, Scott said that he had 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.960 no idea that these tests alone could send people to prison, 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:49.280 but indeed they were countless innocent people, including Amy Albritton, 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:55.080 ended up convicted based on cheap, highly flawed roadside tests 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:56.520 just like these. 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:02.760 Now, the problem with the drug kit is that these 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.480 things are incredibly unreliable, and so they come up with 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:11.200 positive for things like chocolate, like cleaning supplies like aspirin, 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:16.840 like sugar, weight gain powder, candle wax, drywall, soap, sand. 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.280 They all come back and test positive for narcotics. Because 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:21.400 these things are very unreliable and they're not supposed to 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:25.880 be used specifically for actually getting a conviction, but many 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:28.880 people plea in the system to never get to a trial, 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:31.640 and these are used as the only evidence to actually 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:34.360 obtain a conviction. That's what happened in Amy's case. 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:38.600 On our show today, we're talking to Greg Gloud. Greg 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:43.960 is a policy fellow at Americans for Prosperity Now. Americans 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:48.720 for Prosperity is a grassroots organization that educates citizens about 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:52.840 policy issues at the local, state, and national level, and 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:55.840 one of the issues that Greg works on is criminal 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.160 justice reform. So I want to go into detail about 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:02.720 these drug tests and kids walk us through some of 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:06.240 the issues associated with these tests. It sounds like there 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:07.440 are quite a few of them. 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.480 Oh yeah, I mean, so, there are a variety of 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:13.520 issues that go along with drug test kits, and there's 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:17.240 so many areas in that chain of sequence from finding 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:19.760 the substance to actually testing it that can go wrong. 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:22.680 And so first and foremost is actually training. And so 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:25.600 it seems very easy. You drop something in a vial 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:27.080 and you test it and see if it turns a 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:28.720 different color, and if it does, then it's supposed to 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:32.240 be drugs. But it's not that simple, and so officers 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:35.160 have to be trained accordingly on how these work. And 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:38.360 the problem is a lot of different substances actually change 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:40.240 the color. And so the way that the thought process 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:42.040 is supposed to go about this is if it's not 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:44.960 a drug, the substance shouldn't change in there. However, a 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:47.880 lot of substances actually make that color go different, and 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:51.040 so you have these situations where officers aren't properly trained 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:53.240 on how to use them, they break the different vials 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.120 in the wrong way. It could be cold outside, the 0:16:56.160 --> 0:17:01.320 temperature changes different things, the chemicals might expired within them. 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:03.160 There's a lot of different ways that this can go wrong. 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.000 But even if you do everything correctly, everything right, the 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:08.560 officer has been properly trained and he's one of the 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.159 best you know at actually utilizing this he was a 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:14.920 former chemist. Let's just say the most crazy scenario where 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:17.439 he knew exactly how to do this. There are so 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:21.800 many different non controlled substances that actually test positive for 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.679 drugs and change that substance that look like narcotics that 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.000 it makes it impossible to really verify if this is 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:27.720 a drug or not. 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:30.919 And let's be honest, most of these officers are not 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:36.280 scientists or chemists. And there are many other problems, including 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:39.840 that these tests just aren't that easy to read. One 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:43.199 color can easily be interpreted as another. So what are 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:44.240 some examples of this? 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:48.480 For example, one test, it says that LSD should turn 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.480 all of black, but sugar turns dark brown. Now, if 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:54.480 you're on the side of the road pulling someone over 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:58.640 at night, there's lights flashing, things are going on, it's noisy, 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:01.880 it's hot, you're in South Texas. You're shaking this thing 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:04.199 around and you're looking at it and you're saying, is 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:06.719 that dark brown or is that all of black? I mean, 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:10.000 it's a pretty ridiculous question, but this can mean the 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:14.760 difference between someone being arrested or being let go free 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:17.880 because of this slight color change. And then another test, 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.679 another very popular test, cocaine is supposed to be a 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:25.119 deep orange yellow, while salt is a strong orange. If 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:26.840 you can explain to me what a strong orange is 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:30.159 compared to a deep orange yellow, please let me know. 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:44.320 So I'm thinking of someone like Amy, who we talked 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:47.879 about at the beginning of this episode and whose story 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:51.320 was actually published in an article by pro Publica And 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:53.520 by the way, if you're interested, you can find this 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.120 article and others about these roadside drug tests and our 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:01.639 show notes. But someone like Amy is taken to jail 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:07.200 based on this flawed roadside test, and she's told by 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:10.919 her court appointed defense attorney that there's another test that 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:14.159 can verify the results. Of course, that test is going 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:17.679 to take quite some time, but she's told that nonetheless. 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:20.720 So tell us about that second test, the lab test. 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:24.760 Is it actually reliable, And if it is reliable, why 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:27.720 aren't they using it to verify the results right away 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:31.240 instead of having, you know, people like Amy be presented 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:36.159 with this very precarious circumstance in which they're made to 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:38.520 wait around for a while. 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:41.520 With all these drug test kits, you know, and it 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:44.679 says it right on the box, they should be verified 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:48.679 by a forensics lab. And so most jurisdictions either have 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:51.760 a state lab and then also for a larger cities, 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.280 they'll have their own lab. So essentially what they do 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:57.000 is take the substance, heat it up a lot, break 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:58.640 it down to its elements, and then you can tell 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:01.000 from that with you know pretty much one hundred percent 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:04.240 certainty that what it is is either narcotics are not. However, 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:06.800 most of the time it's not getting to that point. 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:09.879 A lot of places, you know in Texas, the Department 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:12.359 of Public and Safety there just doesn't have the time 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:15.439 and bandwidth to actually verify a lot of these cases. 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:18.240 Some jurisdiction, now Houston, after this story kind of broke, 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:21.000 is now not allowing for plea deals to be accepted 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:24.840 without that verification. But a lot of jurisdictions, preticting small jurisdictions, 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:27.280 we have these major backlaws. People are playing within a 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:29.640 couple of days, and then these things aren't being verified. 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:33.080 Back every case can't get tested. With the amount and 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:36.040 volume that we have, there's one point six million arrests 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:38.639 for drug offenses each and every year, and if you 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:41.240 try to verify and test all these substances, you never 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:43.520 get through it. And so those are the problems. So 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:47.639 the actual test, the actual science that should be used 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:51.760 here is not being utilized because the criminal process stops 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:53.680 within a couple of days for most of these individuals, 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:54.760 and then the plea happens. 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:58.240 So let's pause there for a second. Tell us about 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:01.600 the plea. Why does so many innocent people end up 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:05.960 pleading guilty once they're charged based on these faulty roadside 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:06.679 drug tests. 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:10.320 So a plea deal is a negotiation, and so what 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:13.040 it is is, hey, I can give you ten years 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:15.520 on this, or you can take two today instead of 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:18.280 going to trial, Let's settle this today. And so that 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:20.080 is very attractive for a lot of people that are 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:22.760 facing so much time, and it really does get to 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:25.960 a point where it's quite coercive. Maybe they set your 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:28.760 bail at five thousand dollars, ten thousand dollars. You can't 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:31.359 afford it. So you sit in jail and you're claiming 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:33.760 your innocence. You're claiming your innocence. Now the prosecute delays 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:36.520 your case again, delays your case again. We'll accept a 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:38.080 forty five day deal, or we can go to trial 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:39.679 and maybe you'll get two years. And you have an 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:43.280 overworked public defender who has a huge backlog of cases 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:44.680 on their own and can't give you the time of 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:46.960 day because you can't afford your own attorney. And so 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:49.200 they're telling you take the plea, you have no chance 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:51.679 go through this, and you're still sitting in jail, and 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:53.800 sitting in jail, and jail's not a great place, and 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:56.719 jail it's hot or it's freezing cold, and you're with 0:21:56.760 --> 0:22:00.159 other people that are actually you know, dangerous criminals in 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:02.320 this place, and you're going through it, and you start 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:05.119 to think of this cost benefit analysis of do I 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:06.960 stay in here, take this and go, or do I 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:09.520 continue to fight this case of potentially risk you know, 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:12.560 multiple years, are staying in here for another six to 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:14.720 eight months. You know, the public defender is telling you 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:17.840 the backlog at that lab is twelve to eighteen months. 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:20.000 You know, you can't get out for quite a while. 0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:21.760 You know, these are the types of fears and risk 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:24.639 and things people are going through in this process. And 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:27.040 so that's why folks like Amy and thousands of others 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:30.280 across the country have accepted plead deals, even when they're 0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:31.280 actually innocent. 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:36.359 Yeah, And what's really tragic is that once these innocent 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:40.359 people plead guilty. Whatever was used to convict them, you know, 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:44.200 whatever was taken from their car and dropped in one 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:48.040 of these biles that the police are saying tested positive 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:52.239 for a certain drug usually gets destroyed. So if they 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:54.199 ever want to get a hold of the evidence to 0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:57.240 try to demonstrate that they actually pled guilty to something 0:22:57.240 --> 0:23:00.560 they didn't do, they can't get it exactly right. 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:02.800 You know, evidence in a lot of these cases has 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:05.360 been destroyed, and so we really don't know how many 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:07.480 people have been wrongfully convicted because you may not be 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:08.240 able to. 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:09.200 Verify the results. 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:12.399 I know Pro Publica did a study and they estimated 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:15.600 about one hundred thousand people a year probably plead guilty 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:18.400 based upon drug test kits alone. And so even if 0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:20.240 you have a small air rate there, I mean, you're 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:23.600 talking about thousands of people potentially each year that actually 0:23:23.600 --> 0:23:25.840 had never done anything wrong pleading guilty. And how many 0:23:25.840 --> 0:23:29.000 of those cases do you actually have the destruction of evidence. Luckily, 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:31.760 for Amy, and it's tough to say Anything's lucky about 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:35.040 her case was that, you know, in Harris County, you 0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:37.760 had a forensics lab that didn't want to destroy evidence, 0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:40.760 and you also had so much volume that a motion 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:43.199 to destroy evidence about at the bottom of the barrel 0:23:43.400 --> 0:23:45.200 for a judge of signed. So that motion was never 0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:47.639 signed in her case, and so six months later this 0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:49.480 was actually tested and it was a food crump. 0:23:50.320 --> 0:23:53.680 So because of what was really an oversight, the evidence 0:23:53.720 --> 0:23:57.080 in her case was never destroyed. So they were able 0:23:57.160 --> 0:24:01.560 to retest the evidence and find out that she's actually innocent, 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:05.600 and they sent the letter to Amy's house notifying her, 0:24:05.640 --> 0:24:08.359 but it took a long time to actually get that letter, 0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:11.679 so Amy went a long time not knowing that this 0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:13.640 evidence had ever been retested. 0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:17.200 Now, the problem with that, and the problem in Amy's 0:24:17.200 --> 0:24:19.640 case is that she had moved from her original address 0:24:19.680 --> 0:24:21.280