1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's give it up for the one 4 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: and only super producer, mister Max Williams. 5 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 2: Shut up, Noel. 6 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: What's your favorite font? 7 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,599 Speaker 2: Oh? Papyrus obviously, yeah. 8 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. If someone asked me, Ben, what's your favorite font, 9 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you I would not have a good 10 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: answer I have. We both have a lot of very 11 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: accomplished graphic design friends, and I think all three of 12 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 1: us right, and graphic designers are pretty sensitive about fonts. 13 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Seraphs. No seraphs, you know, my god, 14 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: don't even get me started on turning. Yeah. 15 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 3: I briefly sort of had a dalliance working in a 16 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 3: graphic design company doing video stuff, and that's when I 17 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 3: learned terms like like kerning and seraphs. I was just 18 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 3: mainly taking elements that the actual graphic designers did and 19 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 3: then converting them into like after effects animations. You know, 20 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 3: we're text on screen for video type stuff. But anytime 21 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 3: I made any adjustments to things like kerning in the 22 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 3: design they sent me, for whatever reason, they clocked it instantly. 23 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they got a spidery sense for me. And 24 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: there needs to be some sort of discipline right for 25 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: this conveyance of information. Look, no matter what language you speak, 26 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: no matter where you live, in this wide world of ours, 27 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 1: you are constantly inundated by type, by letters, by messages, 28 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: by communication from some other thing to you. We played 29 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: a dangerous and a weird game that max you would 30 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: love back on stuff they don't want you to know. 31 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: We're talking about insidious patterns of advertising. And this was 32 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: a number of years ago. We tried to count how 33 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 1: many ads we saw in twenty four hours. Everyone trying 34 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: to play this game lost count. 35 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: No one won. 36 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: There are just too many type is everywhere. 37 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 3: And that speaks to some of the tricksy methods that 38 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 3: go into type setting. I use that as kind of 39 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 3: an outdated term. Perhaps a font would be more the 40 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 3: proper term now in the era of kind of digital 41 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 3: graph design. But in the old days it was called 42 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 3: a type set because it was literally a set of 43 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 3: metal letters that were used on a printing press. You know, 44 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 3: for every single letter that there was a type setter 45 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,839 Speaker 3: who had to go in and place those puzzle pieces in, 46 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 3: you know, for every single page of a publication. Right, 47 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 3: But you know, when we're seeing advertisements that make creative 48 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:25,079 Speaker 3: use of fonts, we always come back to Chick fil A. 49 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: You know, think what you will up? 50 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 3: Their politics whatever their ad campaigns are on point because 51 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 3: they capitalize out a phenomenon that I believe is called disfluency, 52 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 3: where because of their whole misspelling and kind of childlike 53 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 3: handwritten signs, your eyes linger on it longer because it's 54 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 3: sort of a puzzle to solve. 55 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, just so in the world of Chick fil A, 56 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: cows want you to focus your genocidal tendencies on chickens, right, 57 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: and so okay, this type is everywhere. Font or typeface 58 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: is a crucial part of how we encounter information when 59 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: we read it. And if you think back now, just 60 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: through your day before you tuned in to this episode, 61 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: you will have probably seen multiple different fonts in one 62 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 1: instance or another, and they do affect us psychologically. But 63 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: we rarely ask where these fonts came from. What's the providence, 64 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: what's their origin story? This is a question that has 65 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: haunted our good friend and research associate, Jeff Bartlett. So, Jeff, 66 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 1: this one's this one's for you. He went to the 67 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: mat on this. He's in the trenches with us, Sarah 68 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: or Sands. This is a two part episode. 69 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, and we're not just talking about the providence of 70 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 3: every run of the mill type font. We're specifically talking 71 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 3: about fonts that have gotten, for better or worse, a bad. 72 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 2: Reputation, you know, whether from a. 73 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 3: Design perspective, a legibility perspective, or just kind of a 74 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 3: bad taste perspective. 75 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 2: So we were talking off air. 76 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 3: The original title of this was stupid fucking fonts Lead 77 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 3: me on that Max, but it changed, you know, because 78 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 3: it's a family show to the fonts we love to hate. 79 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 3: And I was joking when I said Papyrus. There's a 80 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 3: really great that is, you know, among some of the 81 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 3: one of the most hated fonts out there. And there's 82 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 3: an amazing sketch or like a digital short on SNL 83 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 3: with Ryan Gosling where he comes to the realization that 84 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 3: the logo for the multi gazillion dollar grossing film Avatar 85 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 3: from James Cameron. The text is literally just papyrus, which 86 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 3: is kind of this, you know, it's meant to evoke feelings, 87 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 3: I guess of like mystical ancient Egyptian tombs. 88 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: It doesn't even really do to feel like you're reading 89 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: a scroll. Yeah, all right, yeah, early early nineties video 90 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: games loved it. Lots lots of blogs in the two 91 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: thousands loved it. 92 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 2: And in the short he kind of has an existential crisis. 93 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 3: I'm like, you know, some designer, if you can even 94 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 3: call them that, just highlighted the text and scrolled down 95 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 3: and like a child pulling flowers. 96 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 2: Off of trees as he passes. 97 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 3: Willy Nilly just selected papyrus and hit you know, print. 98 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: And I want to give it a shout out to 99 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: my second favorite discourse about fonts, ever, which is from McSweeney's. 100 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 1: All you have to do is, uh, since we're beeping 101 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: already in this episode, all you have to do is 102 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: type in the phrase I'm comic sands ask yeah, and 103 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 1: you'll be in for a ride. So okay, I said typeface, 104 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: I said font. They're a little bit different. Let's clarify 105 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: the terminology here with some help from Ashworth. Creative typography 106 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: is the art of creating letters that we use every 107 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: day in any language. You design them. You decide what 108 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: the A or the Z always looks like. And a 109 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: font is a collection or set of those things. So 110 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: they include the all the little garnishes of this weird 111 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: English language, the semi colons, the dashes, the interrogatives and exclamations. 112 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: So the typeface is the design you see, it's the 113 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: style and look of a specific font. And you know, 114 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: you raise a great point there, and Noel, the way 115 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: the letters look play such a mission critical role in 116 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: how people encounter the thing. Like imagine, okay, I was 117 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: thinking about this. Imagine if you woke up one day, 118 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: you're driving in traffic and all the road signs are 119 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: in papyrus font. 120 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 2: I would think I was having a stroke and entering 121 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: some sort of fugue state. 122 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: Most pretentious stop sign ever, it would be disgusted. 123 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 3: Or even even worse or more chaotic would be you know, 124 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 3: comic sands like as the whole world just gone stupid, 125 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 3: you know, like that would be the implication there. Yeah, 126 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 3: it's very interesting, Like the idea of the medium being 127 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 3: the message right one hundred percent contained within the design 128 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 3: aesthetic right of these fonts. There's a certain amount of 129 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 3: intent communicated to the to the consumer, to the to 130 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 3: the viewer, the reader or whatever, you know, whether they're 131 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 3: wanting to an ad campaign or whatever, a sign, let's say, 132 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 3: or a document, you know, like a legal document. They're 133 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 3: going to have style guides, you know, for various law firms, 134 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 3: like in terms of how they space things. You know 135 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 3: that the font they use, you know, what words or 136 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 3: headings are highlighted, you know how, because it's all meant 137 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 3: to convey a sense of professionalism, but also a little 138 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 3: bit of like this is our style. But when you're 139 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 3: doing like let's say, a poster for a movie or 140 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 3: you know, advertisement for a product, are you trying to 141 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 3: convey a sense of fun, excitement, danger perhaps. 142 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 1: Or normality exactly or consequence. So this week we wanted 143 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: to hang out and talk about not all fonts, not 144 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: the necessarily the history of all fonts hashtag not all fons, 145 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: hashtag not all fonts, or hashtag no tall fonts. English 146 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: is so weird, it's We wanted to talk about the 147 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: fonts that get hated on. We named some of them. 148 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: You know, there's this sort of feedback loop in this 149 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: the age of ubiquitous communication. Anything that becomes too popular 150 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 1: too quickly inevitably gets haters. So on behalf of these 151 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: very hated fonts, We're gonna say condolences to haters. Let's 152 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: learn more about their history. Nola, you set up comic 153 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:37,839 Speaker 1: Sands beautifully. Let's talk about comic sands. I can't believe 154 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: I'm saying this. I thought originally we're digging in on this. 155 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: I thought comic Sans made in nineteen ninety four. That's 156 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: pretty recent. And I was politely diplomatically reminded that nineteen 157 00:10:57,679 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: ninety four was a long long time ago. 158 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 2: It is. Yeah, it's weird to think, right the nineties. 159 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 3: You know, they're like children now again, say children who 160 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 3: are able to vote and. 161 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 2: Like buy alcohol who were born in the nineties. It's weird, man. 162 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 3: They just keep you know, we just keep getting older 163 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 3: and they stay the same age. No, they get older too. 164 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 3: Max is well one hundred percent, and there's nothing wrong 165 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 3: with that. Max, go with God. 166 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 2: We wish you the very best, at least in the 167 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,319 Speaker 2: early nineties ninety one. So I'm like, you know, I 168 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 2: had a tape a set player in my car. 169 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 3: Oh, okay, bully for you, young Max, Bully for you. 170 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 2: You know, why is that? Why is that the street cred? 171 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: You'd have a phonograph in your car? 172 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: Get it? You have an eight track? Come on. But no, 173 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 2: But here's the thing. I mean the nineties. 174 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 3: Of course, you know, as you can see with pop 175 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 3: culture and stuff, anytime a new decade begins, it's basically 176 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 3: kind of a trickle down remnants of the previous decade. So, honestly, Max, 177 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 3: the early nineties still very much felt like the eighties. So, uh, 178 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 3: you're good in my book, buddy, you're good in my book. 179 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: So Comic Sands, there's this guy, his name's Vincent Knarre 180 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: con n ar E. He designs Comic Sands, which is 181 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: a sort of thicker line for the letters, and it 182 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: doesn't have seraphs. You've heard us use the phrase seraph. 183 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:23,319 Speaker 1: A seraf is the little deally bopped yeah, that goes 184 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: on the edges of letters in other fonts. Times New 185 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: Roman loves a seraph. 186 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 3: It can kind of make things feel a little more adorned. 187 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 3: Perhaps they're a little more ornamental, or in the case 188 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 3: of Times New Roman, almost give the sense of that 189 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 3: you might have gotten from like a stone cut type 190 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 3: type faces carved. 191 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: That's the idea. Yeah, that's great, that's a good way 192 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: to put it. It's just that slight projection, that slight 193 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: protuberance off the stroke of a letter. 194 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so it makes me think of something naughty, 195 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 3: I don't know what. 196 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: So so apparently our pal Vinson said, no naughty protuberances 197 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: in my thoughts, and this was he designed it based 198 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: off the fantastic craft of letterers a hand. 199 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, comic books in the world, comic comscripts. 200 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, if anyone out there's a fanographic novels, 201 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 3: comic books, whatever, you'll know that there is a credited letterer. 202 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,959 Speaker 3: And that in comics like for example, in The Sandman, 203 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 3: which I think we all love, the text in the 204 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 3: speech bubbles for Morpheus look a certain way that like 205 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 3: have this kind of dreamy quality like everything he's saying, 206 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 3: Even the bubbles themselves are a little jagged on the edges, 207 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 3: and the text looks like ancient. And then you know, 208 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 3: texts from other speakers might just be more of that 209 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 3: normal kind of that traditional comic lettering, which, like you said, 210 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 3: is very sans Saraphi. But what if we took that 211 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 3: that craft of hand lettering and just kind of slapped 212 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 3: it into a font set and called it a day. 213 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 2: Who's gonna stop us? 214 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 3: God? Anyway, So some people just want to watch the 215 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 3: world burn, then, right, right agents to chaos. 216 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: So there's an excellent article in the Guardian how we 217 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: made the typeface comic Sands, and it has an interview 218 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: with our pal Vincent, and Vincent gives first hand reporting 219 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: of how he figured this out. He says, I was 220 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: working for Microsoft's typography team and they had a lot 221 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: of dealings with people from other applications in Karta, which 222 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: was a thing, creative writer, which was a thing. 223 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 2: Cardo was Maps, right, I. 224 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: Believe, so yeah, Maps Learning, Encyclopedia publisher. And so Vincent's 225 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: in this weird situation because all these different stakeholders went 226 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: all kinds of different fonts, and he says a lot 227 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: of these fonts felt strange and childlike to him. One 228 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: program was called Microsoft Bob Bob and here's why. 229 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 2: Here's why. 230 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: Apparently Microsoft Bob was a program designed to make computers 231 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: more accessible, less intimidating to children. And he he said, 232 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: let's give you the quote. He says, I booted it 233 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: up and outwalked this cartoon dog talking with a speech 234 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: bubble in Times New Roman and then Vincent says, dogs 235 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: don't talk in Times New Roman. Conceptually, it made no sense, 236 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: which I don't know how to explain it, but I 237 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: get it. I don't feel like dogs speak in Times 238 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: New Roman. 239 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 3: No, you're right, absolutely, especially what I guess would be 240 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 3: considered a cartoon dog. Right, a cartoon dog was speaking 241 00:15:58,440 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 3: the language of cartoons. 242 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, so we said, yeah, maybe my Senta Stasia is 243 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: coming out here, but maybe Vincent has Sena Stasia. But 244 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: I totally get it, and I think we all do. 245 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: So he says he had this idea to make a 246 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: comic style text and he started looking at Dark Knight Returns, 247 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,359 Speaker 1: Awesome Watchmen, the graphic novels of the class stations. 248 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, Dark Knight Returns is I believe Frank Miller, very cool, 249 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 3: stylized noir, gritty Batman story and obviously Watchman, hugely important 250 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 3: graphic novel series by Alan Moore, The Notorious League, Cranky 251 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 3: and witchy Alan Moore. But again, excellent examples of exactly 252 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 3: what we're talking about in those like using the fonts 253 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 3: and using the hand lettering style in ways to kind 254 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 3: of speak to the characters and their motivations. So, you know, 255 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 3: to our typographer his point, Vincent Kunnair's no, a cartoon 256 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 3: dog wouldn't speak in Times New Romans He's right. Conceptually, 257 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 3: it needed to be something that felt like congruous. 258 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 1: Right mm hmmm, yeah, yeah, and points for congruis though. 259 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 3: We're having a wordy day, we're having word we're talking 260 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 3: about letters. We're going to drop some words because you know. 261 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 3: It's also remember too that in these these days, these 262 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 3: fonts all had to be installed on your computer, and 263 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 3: they still do to a degree if you're doing design stuff. Now, 264 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 3: you know a lot of things are just rendered graphics 265 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 3: that are like vector based, and you don't necessarily always 266 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 3: have to have the fonts installed to see, you know, 267 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 3: stuff on the internet. You know it might, yeah, but 268 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 3: in these days you absolutely did. And so they had 269 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 3: to create it couldn't just be a design element that 270 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 3: was hard baked into the you know, the actual design. 271 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 3: They had to make something that would be installed on 272 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 3: every system. 273 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 1: And Vincent says, he's looking at these graphic novels. He 274 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: loves the hand lettering, he loves the consistency of it, 275 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: and I suspect the disfluency to a larger He says, 276 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: I could have just scanned it in and I could 277 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: have copied what they were doing, but it felt unethical. 278 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: So he looked at specific letters over and over again, 279 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: different instances of them, and he mimicked them on his computer. 280 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: He didn't sketch it, he said, it was just me 281 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: drawing with a mouse, deleting whatever was wrong. And while 282 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: he was doing that, he was breaking all the rules 283 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 1: of orthodox typography. So like one of the one of 284 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: the old school rules for creating a font or a 285 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: typeface is the idea that there should be a certain symmetry. 286 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 1: Your ps are gonna your lower case ps are going 287 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: to look like your lowercase cues with just turned in 288 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: different directions. And Max, thank you for the hand signals there. 289 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: It's sad that we're just an audio show for now. 290 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: But Max is doing a great, a great gesture interpretation 291 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: of this, and so our buddy Vincent. He says, no, 292 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: I like this disfluency. I want I want the P 293 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: and the queue to look different. And he doesn't get 294 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: there in time for Microsoft Bob, but he says, this 295 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: is what's nuts. A lot of people don't know this 296 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: about comic Sands. When it first came out, a lot 297 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 1: of people in Microsoft loved it. It felt fun, you know, zippy. 298 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: It was bang pal kaboom kind of stuff. 299 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 2: Exactly. 300 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 3: It kind of made you feel like you were able 301 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 3: to communicate the same sort of excitement and whimsy as 302 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 3: you know comic. 303 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 1: Strips, and and Vincent says, this is not us, This 304 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: is coming straight from Vincent. He says, our office administrators 305 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: started using the font. Even though it didn't make it 306 00:19:55,560 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: into Microsoft Bob. They started using it in internal email 307 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: for birthday parties, for a little get togethers, and comic 308 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: Sands was just fun if it, you know, you get 309 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: an email, it's in a different font, and it's it's 310 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: not asking you to turn in some work. It's not 311 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: reminding you about a deadline. It's saying, hey, we're getting 312 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: we're getting together. You know, we're gonna have some like 313 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: casadillas or something, because that defines a party. 314 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 3: To me, And uh, ain't no party like a Casadia party, 315 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 3: because the Casadia party goes hot. 316 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it goes around like a clock. Oh my god, 317 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:41,239 Speaker 1: they're so great. They're so great anyway, So eventually this 318 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 1: becomes so internally popular that they include comic Sands in 319 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: Windows ninety five, and Vincent says he begins to see 320 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: it everywhere, and then the backlash began. 321 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, and like it's because, like you said, Ben, anything 322 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 3: that has a sense of over adoption, let's just call it. 323 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 3: You know, it's going to start having some backlash. But 324 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 3: a lot of the backlash also just had to do 325 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 3: with people kind of misusing the font right in ways 326 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 3: that wasn't appropriate. Because remember, like we said, you know, 327 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 3: sometimes that font set is used to communicate like a 328 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 3: certain emotion or idea. So what if, like you said earlier, too, Ben, 329 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 3: all the traffic signs were in comic sands, it would 330 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 3: impart a certain lack of authority to those those things, 331 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 3: you know that you were supposed to fear or at 332 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 3: the very least pay attention to, not a birthday party invitation. 333 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:46,439 Speaker 2: Right right? 334 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: I like that because now we're picturing, I know, all 335 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: of us listening today, we're picturing different fonts on traffic signs, 336 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: and that is such a trip right now, a Pyrus 337 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: comic sands. 338 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 2: Dare I say wing ding? 339 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: People would die? 340 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 3: I want to know more about the history of wing dings, 341 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 3: who came up with those and who has ever used 342 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 3: them success? I guess they're kind of just early clip 343 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,199 Speaker 3: art if you think about it. You know, use the 344 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 3: little pointing hands as borders in your newsletter, whoever it 345 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 3: might be. 346 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: Oh, we'll get the wing ding. That might be part two, 347 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: but we'll get the wing ding. We want to sew 348 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: up comic Sands here real quick. Vincent's a good guy, 349 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: smart dude. He made a cool thought. He's proud of it, 350 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 1: but he I don't know. It just stinks to make 351 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: something on a lark, something fun, something communicative, and then 352 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: have people band together and bond not because they like 353 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: what you made, but because they hate it. It didn't 354 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: take long for a group called ban Comic Sands to form, 355 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: and their whole thing was that they wanted to educate 356 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: people about the uses of typeface. Though in their defense 357 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 1: they did They did email Vince earlier and ask him 358 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: if it was okay for them to start the group, 359 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: and he's so interesting. Yeah, he said it seems silly, 360 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 1: but you know, go nuts with it. 361 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,959 Speaker 3: Well, because he cared about the use as well, like 362 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 3: he was very key to There's a really great quote from 363 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 3: him saying, you know, when people use it inappropriately, if 364 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 3: they don't understand how type works, it won't have any 365 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 3: power or meaning to them. He describes a guy at 366 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 3: a roth Coo art show. Rothko, you know who does 367 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 3: a lot of like assembly kind of you know, collage pieces. 368 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 3: And you know, we've always heard, we've heard of this 369 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 3: about this guy. Say I could have done that, you know, yeah, 370 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 3: but you didn't do that. And just because something maybe 371 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 3: seems rough hewn like. For example, Van Go's art style 372 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 3: is very you know, childlike in many ways. But that's 373 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 3: a man who who comes from a background of classical 374 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 3: style painting. He chose stylistically to present the work that 375 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 3: he presented. And the same with Rothko. And that's because 376 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:11,959 Speaker 3: style matters. Style is a communication tool onto itself, beyond 377 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 3: the words that are actually being typed. 378 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: And let's make space for an anecdote that Vincing gives us. 379 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: That's so cool. In his personal life, he used comic 380 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: Sands one time. He said he was having trouble changing 381 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 1: his broadband provider, so he wrote to them and he 382 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,239 Speaker 1: sent the He sent the letter in comic Sands and 383 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: it said how disappointed he was, and he got he 384 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 1: got a refund. 385 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 2: Uh. 386 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 1: He said, I recommend it for these cases, his basic 387 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: theory being the following. He says, typography should not shout, 388 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: but comic sands shouts. 389 00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 2: I agree with it. 390 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe like should we start sending important emails. 391 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 2: Like at our day Jame memos. 392 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 3: During this recording, we're gonna We're gonna send No one 393 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 3: is gonna take you seriously. 394 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 2: Max takes me serious. Now, oh come, now you're very seriously. 395 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, you should see that guy at Monster Jam. 396 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 2: He's in it. 397 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: Uh so, he says that he being Vincent, the creator 398 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: of Comic Sands, says that people did take to it 399 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 1: on their own. He said it didn't take any marketing 400 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 1: from Microsoft, and it often gets misused in the creator's opinion, 401 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: because someone just digs it they vibe with it. He says, Uh, 402 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: you know, he's very clear that Comic Sands is not, 403 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 1: in his opinion appropriate for all things. There was a 404 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: slideshow at CERN right like a a deck basically where 405 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 1: they announced the discovery of the Higgs Boson, huge moment 406 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: in physics, huge moment in human history. The presentation was 407 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: in Comic Sands, and even Vincent, the guy who made 408 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: Comic Sands a thing, saw that and thought, hm, tut. 409 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 3: And that's the thing that's so interesting about this. I 410 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 3: mean this, Vincent is a typographer. You know, he is 411 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 3: someone who is very well read on the rules, you know, 412 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 3: and like you said, Ben, when he was making the font, 413 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 3: he actively ignored those rules on purpose to achieve a result. 414 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 3: And then because it just became so obnoxiously ubiquitous, people 415 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 3: using this font, you know, not really understanding its power. 416 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 3: Like we said, it became hated. And I'll tell you 417 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 3: in particular because of the very reasons that Vincent outlines. 418 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:58,360 Speaker 3: And he knows this particularly hated by designers because they 419 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,439 Speaker 3: just find it to be just cliche, and not to 420 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 3: mention that he broke all the rules of the aesthetic 421 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 3: of it, so they just find it to be kind 422 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 3: of just gaudy and just you know, he just it 423 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 3: makes them cringe. 424 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it's it's very in vogue to dislike that 425 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: font in particular. And we want to give a shout 426 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: out to David cadavi Over on design for hackers dot com. 427 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: He he knows something I thought was pretty insightful. He 428 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 1: said to he's a Comic Sans hater. Sorry, David, it's fine. 429 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: Your opinions are your own. He says that Comic Sans 430 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: has poor fundamentals, and he compares it to a much 431 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: more beloved font called Helvetica, and Helvetica has like you 432 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: can pull these up if you want to play along home. 433 00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:00,479 Speaker 1: Helvetica feels much more distinguished, you know, much more more uh, 434 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: much more proper. Max obviously hates it. Max is not 435 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: a Helvetica guy, uh and and Noel, maybe you could 436 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: describe just the vibe of Helvetica. I think when we 437 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: talk thoughts, we're talking vibes, right. 438 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 3: We super are Helvetica is just it's it's very clean, right, 439 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 3: it's very legible. It is also it's it's both clean 440 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 3: and bold. Right, it has this imparts authority to it, 441 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 3: very European. Yeah, he describes it as as such. Though 442 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 3: the strokes of Helvetica's letter forms are unmodulated, some adjustments 443 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 3: are made to improve it legibility. For example, notice how 444 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 3: the stroke on Helvetica gets thinner or the shoulder meets 445 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 3: the stem on this letter and he's like in lowercase 446 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 3: R as well, one hundred percent, So this helps to 447 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 3: give the letter and more even visual weight. Notice how 448 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 3: Comic Sands is this way. If you squit your eyes, though, 449 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 3: there is a disproportionately heavy area where these strokes meet 450 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,719 Speaker 3: on Comic Sands. Well, how Vetica's way is more evenly distributed. 451 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 3: The ironic thing about this destinction is that comic Sands 452 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,959 Speaker 3: is actually influenced from a drawing tool around felt tipped 453 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 3: pen or marker, but the stroke of the tool is unmodulated. Meanwhile, 454 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 3: the letter forms of Helvetica are rationalized from predecessors without 455 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 3: apparent influence of a drawing tool. 456 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: Deep water. Yeah we're in deep water. We're under the 457 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: hood on fonts. 458 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 3: And we're gonna move on to other font surely. But 459 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 3: I just wanted to end this segment. I thought we 460 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 3: could read off a couple of things that might be 461 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 3: on the poster for the Comic Sands Sucks movie. 462 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, these are coming from pre pressure dot com. How 463 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: about we round robin, you can do it. 464 00:29:53,440 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, the AOL of fonts. 465 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 2: Max. 466 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: I can't wait for the sound user gobbet Zip's is 467 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: the dirt bastard of the same world. 468 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 3: An email written in this font makes the sender seem 469 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 3: ridiculous and out of touch. 470 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: I honestly think when I see comics hands that the 471 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: person has a lower than average intelligence level. 472 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 3: It's not that it's a terrible font, it's rather that 473 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 3: it suits non designers far better than those of the 474 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 3: sense of the esthetic with like. 475 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 2: Gol. That's the snobbiest quote I've ever round. 476 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: I don't want to hang out with that person. Can 477 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: you imagine them talking about beer or coffee? 478 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 3: And again, I think we're all fans of design here. 479 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 3: You know, we're all fans of aesthetic, and obviously we 480 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 3: wouldn't like write our emails and comic sands either. But 481 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 3: the level of venom attached to it I find kind 482 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 3: of mind boggling, and I find it performative. It is 483 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 3: a little bit yeah, I think so too, as are 484 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 3: a lot of things, because again, you know, fonts are 485 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 3: designed to do a thing, and I think Jeff did 486 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 3: a fantastic job in finding us some really cool contexts 487 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 3: from the creator himself, who is very much a student 488 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 3: of font of typography, of design, who made this for 489 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 3: a very specific reason that you could argue he did successfully. 490 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 3: But then it's like the way it gets misused and 491 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 3: misappropriated that create the hate. 492 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: And you know what, if anybody listening today, fellow ridiculous historians, 493 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: if you are a letterer, if you are a designer, 494 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,719 Speaker 1: if you are beefed up with comic sands, you know 495 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: all thet to you, We're just giving you the facts. 496 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: We also have to point out, in all fairness, folks, 497 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: you're obsessed with it, You're fascinated by it. We are 498 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: making this a two part episode because we needed to 499 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: spend the first part on comic sands. 500 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 2: I mean, come on, right, no, back me up here. 501 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 3: Well, not only on comic Sands, but I think we 502 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 3: had to set the stage for the whole larger conversation, 503 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 3: you know, talking a bit about just the history of 504 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 3: fonts and all of that stuff. And then within the 505 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 3: conversation of comic Sans, I think we kind of hopefully 506 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 3: established sort of a bigger framework as to where we're heading. 507 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 3: So we're gonna make part two a little bit more 508 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 3: of a grab bag. So maybe part one would be, like, 509 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 3: you know, fonts we love to hate. Part one the 510 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:51,719 Speaker 3: comic Sans story. 511 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 2: There we go. 512 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: I also, I've got to figure out a way to 513 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: publish this and play with thoughts. I don't know if 514 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: we could. I don't know if the technology is there yet, 515 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: but if it is, uh, prepare, prepare to be uh. 516 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: You know, we hope you give you We give you 517 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: a chuckle. We also hope that you tune in for 518 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: our further exploration of fonts. Big big thanks to super 519 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: producer mister Max wing Ding Williams, Big big thanks to 520 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: our research associate Jeff San Sarah Bartlett. I'm just I'm 521 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: passing out font nicknames, NOL, what do you what's a 522 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: good win for Jonathan Strickland got. 523 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 2: To be Oh, the put me on the spot. I 524 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 2: don't know enough fought names. I'm not a font nerd. 525 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 2: I'm excited to to dig into some more though, on 526 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,719 Speaker 2: the next episode. We'll see you next time, folks. 527 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 528 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.