1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: As the nineteen eighty six NBA Draft arrived, the Boston 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: Celtics had reclaimed their position as an NBA champion. They 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: won the title that year, it's third of the decade, 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: and Bob Ryan was in a prime position to chronicle 5 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 1: the team's successes. Ryan was a columnist for the Boston 6 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: Globe with a focus on the Celtics. Few journalists were 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: as dialed into the team at that time as Ryan. 8 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: This is Davon Grady, executive producer of the podcast series 9 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 1: Born Ready A Mixed Legacy, which is based on the 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: book I authored called Born Ready The Mixed Legacy of 11 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: len Bias. In this episode of the interviews, Ryan offers 12 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: his reflections of the nineteen eighty six draft, the one 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: that gave len bias to the Celtics, as it turned out, 14 00:00:53,120 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: all too briefly. He talks with podcast producer Don Marcus. 15 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 2: Now, you were were you the columnless at that point 16 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,559 Speaker 2: and were you still covering the league and the team 17 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 2: at that point? 18 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 3: I was covering the beat. I had gone back for 19 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 3: the third and would turn out to be a final 20 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 3: time in the February of that year, and it was 21 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 3: a chain of events that took place when Peter Gammans 22 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 3: left the Globe for the second and final time to 23 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 3: go to Sports Illustrated for the second and final time, 24 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 3: and Dan Shaughnessy had been covering the team after I 25 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 3: had given it up in nineteen eighty two, and he 26 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 3: immediately put his hand up for baseball. That was totally 27 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 3: was always his first love, right, and so he got 28 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 3: the baseball beat, and then long story short, after they 29 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 3: had interviewed a couple of other people. I was very 30 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 3: content doing what I was doing at that time, which 31 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 3: was basically being a basketball guy at large for college 32 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 3: and pro and writing columns along the way. I was 33 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 3: kind of a real big I was a utility man, 34 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 3: you know, but a happy one. And I finally accepted, 35 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 3: all right, I'll take it, I said, you know, And well, 36 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 3: that's when they were kicked in the eighty five eighty 37 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 3: six Celtics, That's when they were peaking. That's when they 38 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 3: were totally kicking ass every night, and it was the 39 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 3: greatest show on basketball Earth at the time, and I 40 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 3: fell into it and I got totally So anyway, I 41 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 3: went up doing for another tune that had rested that year. 42 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 3: In two more years, so yes, I was in fact, 43 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 3: the beat Man when when that draft was held? 44 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 2: What what do you what do you remember going into 45 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: the draft? Now they had just won the championship, so 46 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 2: there wasn't a whole lot of time after that. 47 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 3: Well no, because to see, they didn't win in eighty five. 48 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 3: They lost it to the Lakers in eighty six. Oh, 49 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 3: in eighty six, Yeah, they went. They win the championship 50 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 3: and and have this bonus of the number two pick 51 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 3: in the draft thanks to this wonderful trade that Jan 52 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 3: Volk had worked with the Sonics way back when, which 53 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 3: traded and they traded Gerald Henderson for the Seattle number 54 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 3: one in eighty six. No one on either side, assuming 55 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 3: the Tonics were going to state bad enough that you'd 56 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 3: get a really prime pick, they would been very happy 57 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 3: with ten, eleven, twelve. Believe me, well, they're going to 58 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 3: have number two pick. And on top of being a champion. 59 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 3: It was it was a it was orgasmic, you know, 60 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 3: I'm telling you. If people were so excited, and of course, 61 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 3: you know, the big question was Daugherty or or Lenny. 62 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 3: I remember I was doing some radio as we all 63 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 3: were right now at the time, and we were interviewing 64 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 3: the coaches of the prospective draft picks for the Celtics, 65 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 3: Dana Kirk, because William Bedford was a possibility and among others. 66 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 3: And we interviewed Lefty and I'll never forget Lefty talking 67 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 3: about Lenny and these words have resonated in my head 68 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 3: for obviously the last thirty five years. Leonard's only vice 69 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 3: is ice cream and I'll never forget I'm saying that, 70 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 3: and you know, but yeah, so we talked to Lefty 71 00:03:58,280 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 3: about about Lenny. 72 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, was we We talked to Pat Williams a couple 73 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: of weeks ago, and he told the story about Jack McMahon. 74 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 2: They didn't even they didn't even bring Bias in to 75 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 2: talk to him because McMahon said there's something about him 76 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 2: I don't like. And then they trade the pick, They 77 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 2: trade the pick Cleveland. Was there any talk about any 78 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 2: of this, you know, these machinations going on at the time. 79 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 3: I recall nothing of that sort. Okay, nothing that's news 80 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 3: to me. Yeah, because I love Jack and I would 81 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 3: respect anything that Jack had to say. Quite frankly, so 82 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 3: I don't know what, Yeah, what he had, Yeah, he 83 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 3: knew something nobody else knew. But I had not We 84 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 3: had heard nothing of that nature. 85 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 2: Now. Okay, So so the night of the Drafter, of 86 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 2: the day of the Drafter in New York, I'm in Boston. Oh, 87 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: you're in Boston, you know. 88 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 3: I'm at the draft site, which was the at the Garden, 89 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 3: the old press room, and uh so, yeah, I'm at 90 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 3: the Garden for the draft. 91 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 2: Okay, when they get by, and when when Doughty goes first, 92 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 2: Bias goes second. Was there a feeling that they got 93 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 2: you know, almost like in terms of when Jordan went 94 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 2: a couple of years before it, they actually got the 95 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 2: better pick. 96 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 3: You know, first of all, I don't think enough who's 97 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 3: the they? First of all, who are the people were 98 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 3: talking about the media, I'm not even sure. I know 99 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 3: the fans didn't understand how good he was. I'm pretty 100 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 3: sure about that, and I don't know about the rest 101 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 3: of the media. I was fortunate in that I had 102 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 3: actually seen him play. I was actually there done the 103 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 3: night he drop forty on on Duke and Cameron told yeah, 104 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 3: I was there for I don't know what I was doing. 105 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 3: I don't know, but I was there and I remember 106 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 3: talking to Kay after him after it and so forth. Okay, 107 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 3: so I happened to be there that night, so it 108 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 3: was very fresh in my mind, but no people knew 109 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 3: it was really good. But yeah, I mean, I guess 110 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 3: in retrospect people were pretty excited about it, and so yeah, no, 111 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 3: like can I say. 112 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, who did he did he remind you of anybody? 113 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 2: Was unique? 114 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 3: Because I think I've always it wasn't exactly the style 115 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 3: per se, but the level I thought he would attain. 116 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 3: And I've always used this analogy for the last thirty 117 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,679 Speaker 3: five years. I don't think he was the super duper. 118 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 3: You know, he's not Maxic Michael Larry Lebron. He's worthy, 119 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 3: He's that level. He's a perennial All Star. He's going 120 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 3: to the Hall of Fame, but it's the next tier 121 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 3: of greatness, the second tier. Still a great and still 122 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 3: a Hall of Famer, and you know, and now, of course, 123 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 3: you know, the whole thing with the Celtics was he 124 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 3: was going to be for the twenty four hours or 125 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 3: less than eighteen hours, he was going to be the 126 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,799 Speaker 3: bridge between the Big three and the next generation and 127 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 3: you know, ideal, incredible, How lucky can you get? Bird? 128 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 3: Apparently actually in that interim that very short period of time, 129 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 3: was excited. He knew something, he had seen it. He 130 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 3: was excited about I'm going to come to camp early 131 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 3: even you know, work with that kind of thing. So, uh, 132 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 3: you know, at least he knew or how he felt. 133 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: You when you say you didn't think he was of 134 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 2: the you know, in that in that pantheon? What what 135 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: what at that point and did you think he could 136 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 2: have you know, if if you know, if he had 137 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: exceeded those of your expectations. 138 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 3: Well, I mean the point is that you have your 139 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 3: own grade dation, right, and the Mount Olympus and the 140 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 3: people that are you know, on the waiting list for 141 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 3: Mount Olympus, and then you know, and at that point 142 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 3: in time, you know, the the reigning, the all time 143 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 3: great list of the unquestionable included the three centers naturally Russell, 144 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 3: Wilton and Commune uh Oscar and Jerry at that point 145 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 3: were still you know, and then the current guys at 146 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 3: the current guys at that time, you know, we're magic 147 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 3: Michael and well actually Michael yet Michael hadn't. This is 148 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 3: not Michael yet. It's Magic and Larry and Michael's knocking 149 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 3: on the door, which he did on that April twentieth 150 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 3: when he dropped the sixty three points. But but, but 151 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 3: Michael's knocking on the door. Okay, but no, just the 152 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 3: idea of of you have you exulted? I wasn't ready 153 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 3: to put him on the top of the list, but 154 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 3: I certainly thought he was going to be an It 155 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 3: was a dream picked to be an all Star. Let 156 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 3: me just say before I forget that twice subsequently and 157 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 3: over these years, Coach k has told me that the 158 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 3: two greatest opponents he ever faced were Michael and Lynn Bias. 159 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 3: And that's pretty high praise. 160 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, where, uh, what do you remember about June nineteenth 161 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 2: and and and what and there you get your phone 162 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 2: call and what happened? 163 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 3: We can back it up to the night of the draft. 164 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 3: The day of the draft, he comes to Bust for 165 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 3: the press randolais and I was on part of w 166 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 3: ee I Radio at the time, well you know, as 167 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 3: a contributor, and I was part of the interview process 168 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 3: for him. And I can still see him sitting across 169 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 3: from me and us in a gray suit with a 170 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 3: Selt the cat and his father, I believe, beaming behind him. 171 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 3: And I'll never forget, you know, the interviewed him and 172 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 3: then next thing you know. You know he went off 173 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 3: with wherever he went, you know, And here's my story. 174 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 3: Everybody's got a story. So the next day, I'm going 175 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 3: to say, somewhere between nine and ten in the morning, 176 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 3: I'm prepared to go to my office to do whatever 177 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 3: I was planning on writing that day. I was a 178 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 3: big office guy. A lot of call people weren't, but 179 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 3: I was. I love to go to the office. So 180 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 3: I am about to get in the car when my son, 181 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 3: who was then sixteen years old, came running out of 182 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 3: the house. Dad, Dad, lend Bias is dead? What okay? 183 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 3: And there it went. I said, well, I guess I'm 184 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 3: going to the art garden. I'm not going home to 185 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 3: the office. And that's it. That's how I found out. 186 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 2: And being in Boston, now I know people were down 187 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 2: in College Park and even people there didn't know for 188 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 2: you know, they said, heart attack. 189 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 3: Well at what point. 190 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 2: Did you did you suspect did you think it could 191 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 2: be drugs or or I mean, it's so rare for 192 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 2: a guy that that. 193 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 3: I honestly now, I'm not dodging here. I don't remember 194 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 3: the I have to go see what I wrote, even 195 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 3: which you know, I don't know what. I don't know 196 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 3: what I wrote, frankly, and and that day, I don't 197 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 3: know what speculation, you know, what level of speculation there 198 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 3: was in the first twenty four hours. I honestly do 199 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 3: not recall. I'm no good on this chronology at all whatsoever. Okay, 200 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 3: So I absoutely don't know. And now you've got to 201 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 3: be curious. When we're done here, I'm going to newspapers 202 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 3: dot com and I'm going to see what the hell 203 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 3: I wrote, because I don't know what I wrote right right, Well, 204 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 3: I'll tell you. 205 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 2: One of the things I wrote, I was I was 206 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 2: at I was in uh even though I was covering Maryland, 207 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 2: I was at the US Open at Shinnecock And as 208 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 2: that playing golf, came back to the in a place 209 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 2: where we were saying and it was on the news. 210 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 2: And but one of the things I wrote was that 211 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: the Celtics were not only a really good fit for 212 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 2: him from a basketball standpoint, because he didn't have to 213 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: be the star and for and jan Volt said the 214 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 2: other day, that's rare for a number two pick in 215 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 2: the draft not to have those huge expectations, but also 216 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 2: knowing his personality and knowing that he didn't really love 217 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 2: the media that he didn't he dealing with us at 218 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 2: least the one year I dealt with him at Maryland. 219 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 2: He wouldn't have had to deal with the media that 220 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 2: much in Boston because you had all these larger than 221 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: life guys with Larry at the top of the list 222 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 2: taking all the all the air you know, the airspace. 223 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: Would would that have helped him, you know, in terms 224 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,359 Speaker 2: of not having to be the guy. 225 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 3: If if that's your personality, absolutely yes, yeah, So others 226 00:11:57,840 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 3: might resent the fact that they were getting the attention 227 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 3: they thought they deserve. But if he felt that way 228 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 3: would have been ideal. It was it was so ideal 229 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 3: and thought theory now because so yeah, that's a good point, 230 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 3: and I I uh, I think that the suppositions correct. 231 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,839 Speaker 3: That would because there's no question there was a pecking order, 232 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 3: you know, and and he would have been far down 233 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 3: the list. He got four Hall of Famers right off 234 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 3: the top of the bat, you know, and h Walton 235 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 3: went out five because Walton was still there, because his 236 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 3: contribution was over. He got hurt immediately in that next 237 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 3: season and was played ten games and retired. So that 238 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 3: was it. But they did, in fact up. As it 239 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 3: turns out, five Hall of famers in that team, and 240 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 3: and and Danny Ainge was pretty damn good, a fourteen 241 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 3: year player of consequence. So that was the roster. Yeah. 242 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 3: And Kyle Whitman no matter too, Ye all star. 243 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:47,599 Speaker 2: One of the things that Jan Volk said, one of 244 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 2: the things he liked about about Bias is that he 245 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 2: played mean. There was there was a there was an 246 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 2: attitude that he played with, an aggression that. 247 00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 3: He played with. 248 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 2: And he said that red love. I'm not sure if 249 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 2: the word was instigators or intimidators. And evedn't like guys 250 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 2: who just reacted to those guys, and that he thought 251 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 2: Jan votes that he thought Lend fit that mold. When 252 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 2: you saw him play, did you see that like you? 253 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 2: And when you put it together when he was drafted, 254 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 2: you said, you know, the guy has a great attitude, 255 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 2: the right sort of toughness to be to be a Celtic. 256 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 3: I don't think there's any question, you know, And my 257 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 3: memory was fresh because I had seen him get the 258 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 3: forty against Duke. Wasn't the first time and only time 259 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 3: I saw him in person, but obviously saw him a TV, 260 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 3: you know, over his career and it was very, very impressed. 261 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 3: Of course. Oh the idea that the team had just 262 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 3: won sixty seven games, had just gone through the to 263 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 3: the playoffs was one of the great one season teams 264 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 3: of all time. I still think as good as any 265 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 3: team that ever played was going to add a player 266 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 3: of this consequence was the lips were drooling, you know 267 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 3: how you know, I mean, people were just freaking out. 268 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 3: But then again, we're talking about twenty four hours, you know, 269 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 3: or less. But the idea of it was was tremendous. 270 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 3: And the good fortune and now here's the other thing. 271 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 3: He was viewed as the turnaround, good luck charm, you 272 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 3: know that they needed they get back on track. In 273 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 3: that regard, has turned out he started out to be 274 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 3: the beginning of the bad karma that lasted over twenty years. 275 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 3: You know, Reggie Lewis being another you know, terrible story, 276 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 3: terrible story. But anyway, it was, it was just so 277 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 3: too good to be true kind of thing. And I'm 278 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 3: the thing I've always wondered in retrospect is how Red 279 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 3: would have handled it. Sooner or later he would have 280 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 3: had to play more worthy, you know, and and you know, 281 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 3: what do they do? They're going to break up the 282 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 3: big You're not trade Larry's I forget that, you know, 283 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 3: that's never happening. Trade Kevin with that been you know, 284 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 3: as a bridge player to get you picks, and you know, 285 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 3: and and and then Lenny becomes the next the new 286 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 3: number two guy. Uh, we'll never know, but as a 287 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 3: total mood point, so you know. And as it turned out, 288 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 3: the Big three were never broken up. They just went expired, 289 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 3: you know, one by one they broke down they did. 290 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 3: Larry went first, and then like Kevin went, and then 291 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 3: Robert went and and that was it. And and theave 292 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 3: Gavin agonized over this when he was in charge what 293 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 3: to do, what to do, what to do? And he 294 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 3: didn't do anything, and it just deteriorated. 295 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, was was Bias's death the you know, sort of 296 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 2: the the sort of the beginning of that demise or 297 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 2: did it really take for what you said happened with 298 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: these guys breaking down? And then also obviously the tragedy 299 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 2: with Beggie Lewis to sort of that was that was 300 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 2: really what what Catapault died the you know. 301 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you date it with with Bias and 302 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 3: and then you throw in that having u the thought 303 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 3: that fifty and fifteen games, you know, back in the 304 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 3: one year, and they don't get the number one pick, 305 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 3: you know, they get three and six. It turns out 306 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 3: to be Chauncy Phillips who Patino gave up one too 307 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 3: soon and Ryan Mercer who didn't make it. And anyway, 308 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 3: and there are a lot of what was us going 309 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 3: on from nineteen for that date in eighty seven on 310 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 3: eighty six excuse me, until Danny made the trade and 311 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 3: you know for Allen and then here come in Garnett 312 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 3: and put that team together twenty years later, twenty years 313 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 3: later that did win the championship. 314 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I had a prominent former Maryland player tell me 315 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 2: he wondered if Bias was as as as Dave has 316 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 2: written in his book, more than just a one time 317 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 2: You know, this wasn't a one time dealer. You know, 318 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 2: he he used he used cocaine before this, and this 319 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 2: time they killed him. Given the culture of the NBA 320 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 2: then and how prevalent you know, cocaine used was in 321 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 2: society and in sports, do you think that there was 322 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 2: a danger of a with any players. I mean, you 323 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 2: look at David Thompson's career, you look at John Lucas 324 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 2: that that that was that that that might have been 325 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: the thing that held not only you know, these got 326 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 2: those guys back from being all time greats, but but 327 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 2: anybody and and when you have a guy like Bias, 328 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 2: this could have just you know, it could have. It 329 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 2: could have been this was an ultimate tragedy, but it 330 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 2: could have also with the prevalence of cocaine, you know. 331 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 3: It was, it was. 332 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 2: It was a tough road for some of these young 333 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 2: guys to navigate. 334 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 3: I've always found it difficult to believe it was a 335 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 3: one time deal. I've always fo That's all I can say. 336 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 3: Find it very difficult to believe. It just sounds very 337 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 3: naive to me to think that this was just an 338 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 3: experiment going wrong. Okay, I can't disagree with the premise 339 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 3: that this if this if he did have a liking, 340 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 3: I will say I have it, but a liking and 341 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 3: a proclivity and a and an interest in it at all. 342 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 3: This was the wrong per time in history, that's for sure, 343 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 3: because that's exactly there were lots of stories of that 344 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 3: the NBA was was going through a very bad period 345 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 3: at that time. It was a dark dark age in 346 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 3: that regard, and John Lucas you mentioned like God, I 347 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 3: lived through that, and Uh, to me, he was always 348 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 3: a symbol how powerful the drug is when a man 349 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 3: that intelligent, that aware. Uh, it was seemed to be 350 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 3: powerless to the drug at the time. Uh, you know 351 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 3: without that that God impressed me, you know me, that 352 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 3: scared me and drove home, drove home to me. How 353 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 3: how powerful it could be? Oh, I don't know. Yeah, 354 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 3: I think it's conceivable. I mean, but again, rampant speculation, 355 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 3: just on my rampant speculation as to what would have 356 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 3: had to answer it happened, what happened with the Celtics 357 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 3: over a three or four or five year period, if 358 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:51,479 Speaker 3: he had as he had matured as a player, how 359 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 3: they would have had handled it. But I'm going to 360 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 3: assume he would have had to feel that he needed 361 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 3: to play more and deserve to play more than he 362 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 3: was going to play as a rookie. And and but 363 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 3: you know, and all this is speculation. That's what we're 364 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 3: left with. 365 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: You do you think he would have if he if 366 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 2: he had lived up to his the talent that you saw, 367 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 2: he would have because of who he was playing with, 368 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 2: where he was playing, and and sort of the league 369 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 2: as a way to create these rivalries, whether they're natural 370 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 2: or not natural. He would have been pushed out there 371 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 2: as as the rival to Michael Jordan and given given 372 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 2: the fact that they had it similar to their history 373 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 2: in the ACC. 374 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 3: I don't well, it might have been more external. I 375 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 3: don't think it would have been internal. I don't think 376 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 3: the Celtics were into that kind of thing necessarily. I 377 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 3: don't must they are different. There were different players. I 378 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 3: mean when when when when coach k told me that, 379 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 3: I thought of it. I started thinking about the nature 380 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 3: of their games and he was saying, these are the 381 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,479 Speaker 3: greatest opponents. He didn't say they were similar because they 382 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 3: weren't necessarily know and he was I don't think him 383 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 3: in the same terms as Michael at all. Uh you 384 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 3: know Michael and Kobe. Yeah, you think of them and 385 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 3: and that skill set. I don't see his skills. That's 386 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 3: why I mentioned Worthy. I think it's a I think 387 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 3: Worthy is a as good a comparison as I've ever 388 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 3: come up with as to uh everything about him, and 389 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 3: uh you know, maybe Worthy it was a little bit 390 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 3: quicker up down the floor, but he was stronger, I think, 391 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 3: and inside there would have been there would have been 392 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 3: a trade off there, but he certainly could get up 393 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 3: and down the floor. But but I just think that 394 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 3: that's the level I'm talking about, And I don't think 395 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 3: the Celtics would have been actively promoting you know that. 396 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 3: Uh once again, I don't that. I don't recall any 397 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 3: instances where they really indulge in that kind of thing. 398 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 2: Even with Larry and Bird that. 399 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 3: Was no, that was all. No, no, really, it was 400 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 3: as external the world at large saw it that way. 401 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 3: And and and Larry and Magic didn't shy away from 402 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 3: the fact that they respect it before they got to 403 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 3: know each other, which didn't happen till eighty five, when 404 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 3: it was merely a rival, a professional rivalry. They were 405 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 3: always complementary of each other's games and not afraid to 406 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 3: say that. So they were, you know, and a while 407 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 3: and you know, Magic told me when I did a story, 408 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 3: uh for Sports Illustrated once on them that you know, 409 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 3: he would in fact circle the calendar, you know, when 410 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 3: the schedule came out, you know, and you know, he 411 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 3: looked forward. And both of them admitted that they watched 412 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 3: the box scores and if one got a triple double, 413 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 3: the other one, you know, uh, maybe tonight you know, 414 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 3: I got to get one. It was a friendly, but 415 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 3: it was never angry or bitter. It was totally based 416 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 3: on mutual respect and the feeling that that the the 417 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 3: other guy saw the game the way he did, and 418 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 3: and and and respected the game the way he did. 419 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 3: That's what they liked about each other. 420 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 2: When Biased died, do you did you think that the 421 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 2: did it impact the NBA in terms of the their 422 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 2: awareness of of of players that in terms of drug use, 423 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 2: in terms of doing investigations into players, more, more homework, 424 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 2: you know, more background checks or was it just a 425 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: one off that this guy died and and that. 426 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 3: Was and a uh star Cross draft in general, right, 427 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 3: And I think it bottomed out there, but it didn't didn't. Uh, 428 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 3: it's not like everybody had an epiphany. Uh what year 429 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 3: was Tarpley? Same year year was? The year it was 430 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 3: Chris Chris Chris, Chris Washburn, Oh my god, Chris Washburn. 431 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 3: You know, what a what a what a what a 432 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 3: star Cross bunch? That was everybody but the man at 433 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 3: the top, who you know, Brad Fay, clear of all 434 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 3: as far as I know, right right, But yeah, I 435 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 3: don't think there was an epiphany yet. I think but 436 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 3: it certainly was the It didn't never never got any 437 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 3: worse than that crop, I don't think for for a 438 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 3: draft class. But it didn't end until you know, the 439 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 3: lake damage didn't improve at all until until we got 440 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 3: Michael really became, you know, more and more the focus 441 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 3: in the late nine eighties, and and uh and and 442 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 3: that and so that's what I have to say. It 443 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 3: was a dark period. It was a bad period. 444 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 2: Did the Celtic fans how did they react to to 445 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 2: bias his death was? Did they view it as a tragedy? 446 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 2: Did they Were they angry that, you know, this great 447 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: guy did something. 448 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 3: Really I can't I would think they would proportionately dine 449 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 3: It were more of a feeling of what a waste 450 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 3: and how horrible this is the young you know, the 451 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 3: the the a house of the athlete, dying young thing, 452 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 3: you know, more than anything, I don't think. I don't 453 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 3: think too many people are thanks a lot, you screwed 454 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 3: us now you know we were gonna you were going 455 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 3: to be our bridge and you're not here. I don't 456 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 3: think there was much of that. I think it was 457 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 3: just the shock and tragedy and feeling, you know, plus 458 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 3: right away his mom was out out front in the public, 459 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 3: you know, and and uh, you know you so you know, 460 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 3: you focus your your your your thoughts and energy on 461 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 3: her loss. And so fourth, so that was part of 462 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 3: the two because she was very, very definitely prominent, prominent 463 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 3: from the beginning. M h. 464 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 2: In terms of when when I remember running up to Boston, 465 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 2: when you know, flying up there, when we heard that 466 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 2: because he was from Baltimore, that Reggie Lewis had collapsed, 467 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 2: and and then by the time I landed at Logan 468 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 2: he was dead. And then being there that whole week 469 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 2: and then for the for the for the memorial service 470 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 2: at Northeastern and everything. 471 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 3: Was there. 472 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 2: I can't remember was there much talk about by it. 473 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 2: Were the two tragedies intertwined for for years or were 474 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 2: they separate because Reggie Lewis was the captain of the 475 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 2: team when he died. Bias was a draft. 476 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 3: It was bias. It was bias. We hardly knew you, 477 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 3: We didn't know you. And Reggie Lewis was had become 478 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 3: uh you know by the time he died, was was 479 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 3: the best player on the team. Larry was, you know, 480 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 3: about a point going, and Kevin was in this last 481 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 3: year and and and Robert was getting older. Read Reggie 482 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 3: the reigning all start to tell you know, you know, 483 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 3: he was their new best player. 484 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: Uh. 485 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 3: And plus he had the background of Northeastern and and 486 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 3: so he had people were familiar with him that for 487 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 3: uh near up almost a decade, and it hit home, 488 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 3: you know, tremendously, tremendously, But it was hard. I don't 489 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 3: remember exactly how much linkage. If the linkage was more 490 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 3: woe was us? You know, the Celtics. What do we 491 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 3: do to deserve this kind of thing as a you know, 492 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 3: the Celtics. Uh, but certainly Reggie's was a major Sorry, 493 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 3: Reggie was a big star for the younger, younger fans 494 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 3: particularly I'll never forget you. You mentioned that day and 495 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 3: and the the the mix of humanity that lined the streets, 496 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 3: and and it went to that service. 497 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 4: Uh. 498 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 3: You know, he had touched an awful broad swath of 499 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 3: the Boston community public. Reggie had and you know he 500 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 3: because up to that point, there was never anything to 501 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 3: worry about with Reggie, you know, until the collapse to 502 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 3: you know, he had things. He had a turkey giveaway 503 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 3: of Thanksgiving. He was he was a soft spoken, not boastful, 504 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 3: you know, he was an exemplary, you know, a representative 505 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 3: for your team, et cetera. You know, he was beloved, 506 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 3: he really was, and so that we were that would 507 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 3: a hit Hoard. 508 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 2: One of the things that Dave wrote about now we've 509 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 2: we've learned even more since we started doing this, is 510 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 2: that how politicians used bias his death to sort of 511 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 2: enact tougher drug laws with the nineteen eighty six Anthey 512 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:39,400 Speaker 2: Drug Abuse Act, and in one of those I think 513 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 2: Tip O'Neil was one of those obviously influential people in Washington. 514 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 2: Was there any talk up there in Boston? Do you 515 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 2: remember anything about Bias his name coming up with struggles? 516 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 3: Yeah? Okay. 517 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 2: Does Bias have a legacy in Boston or because he 518 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 2: never played for the Celtics there, there is no legacy. 519 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,719 Speaker 3: No, I mean, it's it's it's a known I'd love 520 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 3: to know, for example, if you if you interviewed the 521 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 3: average twenty five year old Celtic fan, now whether he 522 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 3: or she how much they know at all about it. 523 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 3: I'd be curious. I you know, it's a it's part 524 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 3: of his it's a history thing. Yeah, it's not real, 525 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 3: you know, it doesn't resonate to the younger people. Now, 526 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 3: I don't think at all in anyway. So the answer 527 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 3: is no. And maybe if he had played a year 528 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 3: and teased everybody what how good he was and then 529 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 3: it happened, you know, But but since he never played 530 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 3: a second, since Celtic career was less than twenty four 531 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 3: hours total. I you know, I don't think it's there's 532 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 3: a residence for all the for anybody who wasn't there. 533 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,159 Speaker 3: And you know I was there, and and you know, 534 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 3: I'll never forget my son running out of the house 535 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 3: a moment, you know, and and it was it was 536 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 3: it was a stunning stunning was it? 537 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 2: I mean given everything you've covered, every every event, every athlete, 538 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 2: I mean, was it among the most shocking things? I mean, 539 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 2: do you have clear memories of that as people have 540 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,640 Speaker 2: they were with a Kennedy assassination? 541 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, we know, I just told you. Yeah. For me, 542 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 3: in the moment is how I found out was my 543 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 3: son drive running out of the ass and having heard 544 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 3: it on the radio or seen it on to you, 545 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 3: I don't know which way it was. But Reggie len 546 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 3: Bias is dead and I was totally stunning. Uh. I 547 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 3: was present for Tony C getting hit I was behind 548 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 3: home plate at night. I had a box seat. In fact, 549 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 3: I got a foul ball in the first innings. It 550 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 3: turned out, but you know, that was a jarring thing, 551 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 3: you know, and and beginning, you know, his life was 552 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 3: never the same anyway. I was there for that Reggie 553 00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 3: when Reggie's that's right there with me. The night Reggie collapse, 554 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 3: which was in the first quarter of the game against 555 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 3: Charlotte in Game one in nineteen eighty three, I was 556 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 3: sitting behind the basket and that night, not on the sideline, 557 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 3: first row, behind the basket, and ten people. All of 558 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 3: a sudden, there's nine people running up at the other 559 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 3: end of the court and one one sitting on the floor, 560 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 3: and it was Reggie Lewis with the look on his 561 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 3: face that I interpreted as what's happening? What has just 562 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 3: happened to me? And that's the image I have because 563 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 3: he was ten feet away from me when he collapsed, 564 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 3: from just where I was sitting ten or twelve feet away, 565 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 3: So that's always resonated. But Lenny Bias is running out 566 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 3: of the house when I found out that Reggie had died. 567 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 3: I was covering the Red Sox in Milwaukee. I remember 568 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 3: on a road trip in that summer. So, but those 569 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 3: two things, those two Reggie, I mean Tony c getting 570 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 3: hit in the face and October August eighth, nineteen sixty seven, 571 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 3: and and Reggie collapsing twelve feet in front of me, 572 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 3: and you know, leaving a path that led to eventually 573 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,959 Speaker 3: to his death. And then then Len biased my son 574 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 3: running out of the house. 575 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Uh, Dave, do you have some questions for 576 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 2: for Bob. 577 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 5: I do to sort of extend beyond what we were 578 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 5: talking there about the impact within the Celtics community or 579 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 5: in Boston and comparing it with other events. There have 580 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 5: been references to Len's death being an extension of the 581 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 5: Curse of the Bambino. It's been written about whether that's 582 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 5: all just you know, hyper I like, I'd like you 583 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 5: to put that in perspective with with the with the 584 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 5: added context of I remember reading Bob Coosey being quoted, uh, 585 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 5: you know, fifteen years ago over the over the past 586 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 5: that he he equated it to the Curse of the Bambino. 587 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 5: And I talked to Bob about a month ago. I 588 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 5: got him on the phone and and not surprisingly, he 589 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 5: didn't remember saying it. 590 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 3: You you've come to it somebody that though my good 591 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 3: friend Dan Shaughnessy has you know, lived off and profited 592 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 3: well from propagating the idea the myth of the curse 593 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 3: of the bambino. You know, I've never obviously, I don't 594 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 3: buy into it at all, utter nonsense, and so if 595 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 3: anybody equating it to something that is silly to start with, 596 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 3: is just waste of time. And the whole thing's all 597 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 3: concepted to me is a waste of time. By the way, 598 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 3: let me about the curse of the bambino. As all, 599 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 3: we got thirty seconds among us here. The first time 600 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 3: I heard about this concept was circa in nineteen ninety three. 601 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 3: I was it eighty three. I came one of the 602 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 3: threes done? You know, Henry hacked right, sure, sure, well. 603 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 3: Henry's a friend and Henry's roommate at Vanderbilt at the time. 604 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 3: It was at the time a minister where the congregation 605 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 3: and down and situate Mass two towns down, and Henry 606 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 3: was up visiting and we were we were visiting his 607 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 3: friend Darryl, and Daryl said dar was a big sports 608 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 3: fan's big big and said, you ever wear a curse 609 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 3: of bambino? He said no. He said, well, it's just 610 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 3: a theory that the sale of Babe Ruth to the 611 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 3: Yankees was an original sin from which there can be 612 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 3: no redemption. And the point is, no one knows where 613 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 3: it came from. That wasn't him. He was spouting off 614 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 3: something he had heard. No one has ever proven or 615 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 3: come up with the origin of it, the idea of it. 616 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 3: All right, I just tried to put out out there, 617 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 3: So don't let anybody take credit for it without some 618 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 3: kind of empirical proof that they actually got it in 619 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 3: print or somewhere before. Anyway, all right, answer to you're 620 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 3: don is now, screw that. 621 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 5: The If you could talk a little bit more about 622 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 5: the immediate reaction of the three four, six months and 623 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 5: maybe the year that you saw on the Celtics, how 624 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 5: long is the reaction of his death lingered to where 625 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 5: it had any kind of effect or impact on the team. 626 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 3: Well, Red, as I recall, Red was quite vocal that 627 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 3: it had a long lasting effect. In his negative effect 628 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 3: on the team. Red thought it hurt. We thought that that, 629 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 3: you know, they would have been so well positioned to 630 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 3: prosper in the ensuing years better than they did. You know, 631 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 3: after they never that group. They never won until you know, 632 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 3: there was twenty more years, twenty two more years before 633 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 3: they won. They went back to the finals in eighty seven, 634 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 3: and of course this is what hurts. They were manpower shy. 635 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 3: If they had had a player of the equivalent that 636 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 3: we think that Reggie, that Lenbas would have been, I 637 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 3: think they would have had a very good chance of 638 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 3: beating the Lakers. They ran out of manpower. Mikhale was hurt. 639 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 3: Bird was always hurt by Mickael anyway, So I think 640 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 3: there was a lot of talk over the years that 641 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 3: you know, they could have used them. That's all the 642 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 3: kind of thing Red and I recall Red and might 643 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 3: be able to verify that for you, you know, if 644 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 3: you want to ask him specifically on a follow up. 645 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 3: But I have recalled that Red was pretty vocal that 646 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 3: he thought it was and had a negative effect for 647 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 3: upwards of a decade. 648 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 5: How about from your perspective on the emotional side, how 649 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 5: long did you sense did players talk about it to 650 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 5: you or was it product? But I mean, I know 651 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,399 Speaker 5: these guys are so focused on the moment when they're playing, 652 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 5: they're probably just thinking about But did it No, I don't. 653 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 3: Know I don't think nobody knew him. It's not like 654 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 3: they never had a chance to forge even a one 655 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 3: day relationship. So I mean that's the difference. That's why 656 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 3: this is so it's such a bizarre you know, it's 657 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 3: such a one off story. You know, Reggie, this this 658 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 3: is one thing. You know, God, but what a player 659 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 3: who This whole scenario took unfolded in less than twenty 660 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,439 Speaker 3: four hours from the draft, which is started at noon, 661 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 3: and so the pick was probably twelve twenty or twelve 662 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 3: fifteen until you know, the we went back home and 663 00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 3: did what he did and the next morning we're talking 664 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 3: twenty hours, eighteen to twenty hours from the time he 665 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,439 Speaker 3: was drafted to the time you know, or no less 666 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 3: than that by time it became common knowledge in the 667 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 3: mid morning of the day, after less than twenty four hours. 668 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 3: So I don't think there was any any emotional scarring 669 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 3: on the I think there was a professional, you know, regret, 670 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 3: but not an emotional scar Did. 671 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:28,240 Speaker 5: You see any heightened emotion Sadness maybe surprised was prevalent 672 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 5: within the Boston community and Celtic supporters right after he died. 673 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 5: Did you see any heightened emotion like we saw here 674 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 5: in the DC area that it was one of the 675 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 5: biggest stories in the DC era in decades. But I 676 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 5: mentioned until different for Boston. Did you see anything that 677 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 5: reflects that heightened emotion of Boston people. 678 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 3: I think were immediately aware that it was a much 679 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 3: bigger story in Washington than it could ever be have 680 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 3: been in Boston. It's a you know, it was a 681 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 3: great crew. I got janned to make the deal that 682 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 3: got in this pick, and now it's not going to materialize, 683 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 3: you know, that kind of technical you know, But I 684 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 3: don't think there was an emotional attachment. You know, if 685 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 3: we had a larger college basketball savvy audience here, you know, 686 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,919 Speaker 3: maybe I could make a case for it, but we don't. 687 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 3: We didn't, then we still don't. This is not it's 688 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 3: almost a backworder of college you know, national college basketball 689 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 3: knowledge and interest. So most people, i'd say well over 690 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 3: half the Celtic fans maybe three quarters of them. All 691 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 3: they knew about len bias is what they were being told, 692 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 3: not that they could verify it, you know, because it's 693 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 3: not that we're not a hotbed, and we weren't. Then 694 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 3: you know, I was excited, boy, you know, I was 695 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,719 Speaker 3: but but my little world. We were very excited. But 696 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 3: you know, people just knew they were getting a good player. 697 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 3: They didn't have a fuel for exactly the nature of 698 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 3: this of his skill and talent. 699 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 5: You talked about the legacy of lend within the context 700 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 5: of Boston, what about a general legacy. Can you your 701 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 5: perspective on the general the most profound aspect of his 702 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,399 Speaker 5: general legacy? And also do you see any positives coming 703 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,320 Speaker 5: from this you made a reference to in these bias 704 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 5: and how much she's She's still out there by the 705 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 5: way speaking, it's amazing. That's I guess people can perceive 706 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 5: there as a positive. Jay Bill says there's no positive 707 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 5: to this story when we talk to him, there's nothing 708 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,919 Speaker 5: positive about it. Do you have any any perspective about 709 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 5: a positive and then a general legacy? 710 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 3: Now, I don't know if there's I don't know. I'm 711 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 3: more inclined to agree with Jay other than whatever. You know, 712 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 3: good things that that Lenny's can bring to the table 713 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:39,800 Speaker 3: for people. But you know, it's a sad story, you know, 714 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 3: rug you know people need to be preached to. Do 715 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 3: people need another somebody else preaching about the evils of 716 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 3: drug you know? And kind of thing. It's just say 717 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,800 Speaker 3: because it was so weird, it would have been so different. 718 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 3: Well Reggie. You know the impact of Reggie is one 719 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 3: thing because people you know, had you know, had a 720 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 3: relationship with him, experience with him, but then had no 721 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 3: relationship with with len Bias. It was it was sad, 722 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 3: sad story and in abstract general terms for people, it 723 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 3: wasn't personal you know, Reggie. You could personalize Reggie, but 724 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 3: it was it was different. I don't think too many 725 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 3: people could. You know, maybe there was some local Maryland 726 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 3: the lums, but not to me of people could personalize 727 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,279 Speaker 3: len Bias. It was it was the lost asset. I 728 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 3: hate to sound cold and cool. I just think that's 729 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,800 Speaker 3: what it was. It was the lost asset. And anybody 730 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 3: who's remotely sensitive could appreciate the sadness of the story 731 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 3: of the young the athlete dying young kind of thing, 732 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 3: and then a little bit of anger if you want, 733 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 3: because you know it was avoidable naturally, you know, uh, 734 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 3: you didn't get hit by a car. You know, he 735 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 3: and justin you know, did whatever he did. And so 736 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 3: there's that. 737 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 2: I got one other question for you, okay, you know, uh, 738 00:38:54,800 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 2: ESPN did a three hour, remembering when biased package last summer. Oh, 739 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 2: it was the middle of the last dance. It was 740 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 2: on the middle of the week, one night. What what 741 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 2: is it about this story makes it still resonate thirty 742 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 2: five years, thirty six years later, thirty five years later. 743 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 3: Uh, it's it is unique. It's unique story. The idea 744 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 3: of as I said, this whole time thing played out 745 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 3: in less than twenty four hours, the drafting and then 746 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:36,360 Speaker 3: the partying and the death less than twenty Give me 747 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,720 Speaker 3: a where's the for Instance's whe's the other for instance 748 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,240 Speaker 3: of this? I can't even imagine. I can't think of anything. 749 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 3: You know, we've read all kinds of different tragedies historically, 750 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 3: plane crashes, automobile crashes, you know, Stanley Ketchell shot, you know, 751 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 3: all kinds of stuff, But any wakers, right, you know 752 00:39:55,440 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 3: Ruth Steinhagen shot him. I mean you but this one, Yeah, 753 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 3: and you meet it hours after a draft, after he's 754 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 3: been white you know, he's been been showcased to the 755 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,360 Speaker 3: Boston media and doing doing the rounds, and everybody's on 756 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 3: such a high. We're going to get this great talent 757 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 3: and boom stunning. There's nothing like it. Plus, I don't 758 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 3: know there's left. He figure into this partially because he 759 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 3: was left. He was he was left his coach and 760 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 3: left he with his coach. Probably uh maybe in the 761 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 3: whole acc being de glimber conference for basketball of them all, 762 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 3: you know, maybe you know, maybe as I said, i'm 763 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,239 Speaker 3: I'm I'm aware that coach Case twice told me how 764 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 3: good he was. That's pretty high praise. I don't know, 765 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 3: but I just think you've got to say, it's just weird. 766 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 3: There's nothing to create it to that in terms of 767 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,720 Speaker 3: the rapidity the time grame. 768 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,839 Speaker 4: Led bias A Mixed Legacy. The interviews was produced by 769 00:40:54,920 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 4: Daveon Grady and Don Marcus Get it All from quick Lend. 770 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,799 Speaker 4: Bias A Mixed Legacy is distributed by the eighth side 771 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 4: number 772 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 3: Greatness