WEBVTT - QLS Classic: Ronan Farrow 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.840 Of Course, Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:07.040 classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora. 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:13.000 What's Up Something Bill ProQuest Love Supreme on this week's classic, 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.240 which revisited May thirty. In twenty eighteen interview with journalists 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:18.759 and author Ronan Pharaoh, he dropped out and talking about 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:20.800 his first book, War on Piece. The chat left to 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:23.840 talking about family most of and Roman's Pursuit of the Truth. 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:25.320 Episode eighty six. 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:38.600 Enjoyed Supremo Son Son Supremo roll call, Supremo Sun, Supremo 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:45.520 roll call, Suprema Sun Supremo roll call Suprema Sun sub 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:47.200 Supremo roll call. 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:50.520 I am for real, Yeah, I am so down. 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:51.120 Yeah. 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:57.480 Ronan Pharaoh, expose these class. 0:00:55.840 --> 0:01:02.720 Supreme So Sun Supremo, roll call, breama something something, Supremo role. 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:06.360 My name is Fante. Yeah, I can't play the word lizzer. 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:07.000 Yeah. 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:09.800 I never had a bar MINSI. Yeah, congrats on that 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:10.840 pool Litzer. 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:19.000 Suprema Suprema roll called Suprema Son, Suprema roll call. 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:20.920 My name is Sugar. Yeah. 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:25.000 When I heard Pharaoh, yeah, I was like, oh Eve, yeah, 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:25.840 not again. 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:34.760 Suprema role called Suprema Son So Suprema. 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:36.080 Roll called Bill. 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:40.920 Yeah, and life is hard Yeah when you live inside. Yeah, 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:45.000 House of Cards. 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:50.760 Suprema Son, Suprema roll called Suprema Son, Suprema. 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:57.160 Roll em Yeah, and Pharaoh everything he says, yeah, yeah 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.559 I follow, Yeah me too, Yeah. 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:00.120 Supp. 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:11.000 Roll, I'm rolling row, I'm here to stay. 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:30.640 Yeah. I can't free style, but I got a yeah roll. 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:36.720 He started the crooning. That was amazing. 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:42.760 Guys ring definitely need another take, but there's promising stuff there. 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:46.440 You are a one I love. 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:54.040 I was outside and I saw the I had a 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:56.880 new bars. I saw the word lips outside. 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:59.680 I was like, like like Pulitzer soul. 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.840 Yeah, yeah, if you were all the revelation comes after 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:06.359 roll call, before call. 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:09.120 There is nothing we can think of that you know 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:11.400 that rhymes with the word that we intended you. 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:13.400 Do that every time that's exhausted. 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:19.200 What what episode is this? Like like. 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:24.640 Congrats on your eighty something? The episode that means. 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:31.240 Each each freaking roll call has been somewhat customized, all 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:32.160 mind saved. 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:33.600 You're a lie? 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:34.840 Oh yours? 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:35.120 Okay? 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.840 Like off topic because I like to be as topic 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:40.000 as positive. 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:42.400 This week because this well, this is the one. Yours 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:43.240 is always political. 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:46.680 No, matter what. Like even if we have like like. 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.880 You know, the food episode, you'll talk about what happened 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:51.840 in the news that week, So you're like our. 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:53.920 Political conscious but not really. 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:57.080 I was going to try to do a non political 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:59.560 one this week because it's political to fuck with you all. 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:04.960 But yeah, I was like, you better stick to way 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:07.520 special guests. There is a today say the word high. 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:14.200 She's very My goal is to get her to open up. 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:13.480 Yeah. 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:17.800 We are literally yeah we in place of bost Bill 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:22.400 uh Ziah, one of my seven managers is here. 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:25.600 Maybe we can get into it later because. 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:29.800 It's not about me our special guests, you know, I 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:33.400 will say probably one of the one of the one 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:38.280 of the hardest things to to do, uh, I think 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:43.520 in terms of David and Goliath is taking a stand 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:49.800 and calling people out, sticking to the truth, especially when 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:53.840 terms like fake news gets thrown around a lot, and 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:57.840 you know, there are a certain few that still don't 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:03.960 know who to believe. You know, I guess anyway, this 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:08.880 this man has in my opinion, uh, he's leading the 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:13.039 charge and he's a mighty David to the world's good life. 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:16.560 His new book just got released, War and Peace. Thank you. 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:17.520 I want to talk about. 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:27.920 That hell out of that, guys, welcome. Yeah, that how cool. 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:30.479 I saw your speech last night. That was really incredible. 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:32.279 How you picked up your mom. 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:32.640 For it, you know. 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:36.760 Yeah, you know, look I brought with me actually, uh, 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:39.160 one of the first women who went on the record 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:43.279 in these stories I wrote about Harvey Weinstein. And you 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:44.839 know there's a reason for that. I really I was 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.039 there because of her, and I feel like we have 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:50.440 all benefited so much from the example of how brave 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:52.680 these women were. And you're right, my mom was there too, 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:56.039 and she is a super brave woman who has gotten 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.240 a lot of flak for standing up for her daughter 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:01.760 and for women's rights, and I owe a lot to her. 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:07.840 I gotta say, even like news news of you writing 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:10.880 the New Yorker piece and your work before. Of course, 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.159 we at one point worked in the same building at 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:15.640 thirty Rock, what I call thirty Rock University. 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:18.279 I'll just say that you graduated. 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:24.039 You kicked out, you know. Well you're talking about that later, yeah, 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:27.120 you know, but you were. You definitely had a cooler 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:29.919 layer in thirty Rock than I did. 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:32.400 Yeah, but you guys, really know it all is man, 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.320 and you know, I was always a big fan of 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:37.520 the third floor, all all the cats that ever. 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:39.760 Yeah, yeah, there's some great reporters there. 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:47.080 But I'll say that, even though I believe maybe the 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:51.240 first time I met you, I recalled, did you guys 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:54.920 ever attend a show with Most? 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:56.920 I know at the time when he was doing be 0:06:57.080 --> 0:06:57.840 kind Rewind? 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.920 Yeah, wow, that is a piece piece of obscure IMDb trivia. 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:06.679 My mom co starred with Most in this Michelle Gontrey movie, 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:10.400 right yeah, and she loved Most. She was like, this 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:12.800 guy is the salt of the earth. She thought he 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:14.160 was so sweet, he was so supportive. 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:16.400 One point that you guys, that was going to be 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:20.000 like the the adoption thing, like Most. 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:22.560 Was just going to be like the latest addition to 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:23.239 the Pharaoh family. 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:26.240 Exactly would that I saw, even I don't know if 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:29.080 it's you or your siblings at one of his shows 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:29.880 that I happen to be. 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:32.840 At, totally possible. I mean I'm a big fan of his. 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:38.920 Okay, So but I'll say that my my true introduction 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:44.440 introduction to you was your your Twitter feet, which was 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:47.040 super fearless. At first, I didn't I didn't even know 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:50.520 you were journalists. I just thought, yo, your singers are. 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:54.240 I'm glad you liked them. They have gotten me in trouble. 0:07:54.440 --> 0:08:00.000 I was going to say, how how did your Father's Day? 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:02.120 I don't know if this is the White Elephant or 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:05.680 room whatever, but your Father's Day tweet was rather interesting. 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:08.080 I had some spicy tweets in my day. 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:13.800 Yeah, but you know, how how did you deal with that? 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:16.240 Because usually I get a lot of clot back from 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:18.800 you know, yeah inner circle. 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:24.080 Yeah, I mean, you know, but you just always has that. 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:25.880 Always been you, like, I'm going to call it out 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:27.720 if I see bullshit, I'm gonna call it out. 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:30.840 For sure, for sure. I think when you're calling out 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:34.480 bullshit through careful investigative reporting, you do have to then 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:38.319 be careful about like being glib on social media. So 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:40.720 it's a delicate balance. You know, it depends on the topic. 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:42.920 So you can't be yeah, you're you're not. 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:44.880 I think, you know, while I'm in the middle of 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:48.240 such sensitive stuff and I'm so under fire from some 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:52.520 pretty nasty people that I've exposed, you know, I still 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:54.079 get a little in edgewise. 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:55.839 And at last, you know, a few I want to 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:56.360 say weeks. 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:58.360 Yeah, during those period. 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:01.960 Time, these things, it's like, Okay, your Twitter might go 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:02.520 more PG. 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:05.800 Now it's a little more PG. Yeah. I also think, 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:09.520 you know, Twitter has changed, like our cultural moment has changed. 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:12.079 There was a period where like I'd go on with 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:14.840 you know, Jimmy, and he'd like read his favorite tweets 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:17.240 of mine. And I don't think we do that anymore. 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:19.400 Like the novelty of Twitter wore off, and it's now 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:23.480 more for me anyway, like a rolodex of fellow reporters, 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:25.680 rather than like a joke medium. 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:27.640 Oh yeah, it's more like it's like the morning papers. 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:28.800 Now it's like the morning papers. 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:31.679 Yeah, yeah, right, it's more of just a news aggregator 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:31.960 for me. 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:34.840 Hashtag is a thread, you know it, Threa. 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:36.440 Nothing's funny anymore? 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:39.240 Yeah, nothing, but well you guys are still funny. That works. 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:44.280 So just as a young person were when did you 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:49.560 realize that this is bullshit and I have to stand 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:54.319 up for something or were you Were you the tattletale 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:55.240 of your siblings? 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:59.440 Like what, I was not a snitch on her I 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:00.880 because it's. 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.480 Weird just from where I came from, Like I was 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:07.760 raised Okay, one time I used to be the cousin 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:15.040 that TOLDE job right, But I was raised like you. 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:21.040 My uncle would punish the guilty party and then punish 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:21.679 the snitcher. 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:24.400 Everybody it's like, what did I do? It's like you're 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:28.360 supposed to stick together, which it's like, that's that's kind 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:29.440 of weird. 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:34.079 We at a young age, I'll say that at least culturally, 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:37.480 black people were slow to call things out, and then 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:39.360 maybe by their teens, then it's like to tell it 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:41.880 like it is thing because then you just realized that 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:45.000 this is bullshit and I gotta stand up. So I mean, 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:48.960 at what point where did you feel like on my 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:50.960 own two I gotta. 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:54.040 I was always raised with a really strong spirit of 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:56.840 public service and justice, and I think a lot of 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:00.000 that flows from my mom being like a recovering Catholic 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:04.880 schoolgirl who you know is still really was inculcated with 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.320 that kind of save the world attitude and and I think, 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:12.120 you know, speaking the truth and cutting through bullshit, even 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:13.880 when it means putting a lot on the line is 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:16.200 a big part of that. But what's interesting when you 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.480 talk about snitching is, you know, my day job as 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:23.000 an investigative reporter requires both a lot of telling of 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:25.920 hard truths and also a lot of keeping of secrets, 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:29.960 right because you're dealing with all of these anonymous resources. Yeah, 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:32.520 and you know, even when people go on the record, 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:34.600 you know, you have to be very careful about parsing 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:36.000 out the parts they want to say the parts they 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:37.760 don't want to say. And one of the most important 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:40.280 things I do is respecting people's privacy. 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:44.640 Well, let me make clear snitching is at least inculturally 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.480 for us. Snitching is like when you're part of an 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:53.000 operation and then yeah, Evan, you rat everyone else out. 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:57.760 No, be cool, because boss bills not here. And I 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:02.400 want you guys to choose this podcast. 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:05.120 Does this take some calls and you know, to on 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:08.520 the micro yes, sound effects, all this stuff. But so 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:11.720 I would not necessarily say, I mean, keeping a secret 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:15.640 is necessary in your line of business. 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:18.079 And I feel that's not. 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:20.520 You walking back. 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.480 No, I never. I mean, like. 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:26.880 Interesting point. 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:27.800 That's why I was super interesting. 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:29.000 I wanted you to go back to what you said 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:30.840 about him and your brothers and sisters, because when you 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:32.920 came in here, you were already talking about your brothers 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:33.520 and sisters. 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:34.880 How many do. 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:38.480 You have and were one of fourteen? Okay, it's a lot. 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:40.400 And your last name is not Johnson. 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:42.920 And where are you in this game of the fourteen, 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.120 there are four younger than me. Ten of my siblings 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:49.640 are adopted, and most of them have, uh, you know, 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:54.160 really traumatic difficult backgrounds of various kinds. You know, adopted 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:59.160 from terrible situations of poverty and abuse. You know, many 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:01.839 of them adopted older at a point where basically they 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:04.840 would not have found a home otherwise. And you know, 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:06.439 those are the people I love most and I grew 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.160 up with, and it really gave me this incredible sense 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:11.720 of perspective. It's hard to like sop into your soup 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:14.120 about anything when you have so many of the world's 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:15.760 challenges read at your doorstep. 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:19.520 So from the gate being one of fourteen, like you're 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:24.240 automatically taught community service and that sort of. I mean, 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:27.760 it wasn't a silver spoon situation. Then you decided, because 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:30.600 there's some people that like they grow up privileged, rich, 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:33.679 and then they realized, like, yo, this is we'll sit 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:34.079 I got. 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:36.800 And you know, I'd never like complain of hardship in 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:39.640 that respect, because lord knows, I've reported on and seen 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:43.280 plenty of real hardship and I didn't have that. But 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:46.600 you know, I was raised by a single mom who 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:49.480 was at that point, you know, not working all the time, 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:51.679 and it was very clear that we all had to 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:54.720 strike out and make a living as early as possible. 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:58.160 And you know, not everyone could go to private school. 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:01.040 It was it was merit based, and you know, we 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.600 were really fortunate. I was supported through my whole childhood, 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.920 but it wasn't opulent. And you know, the flip side 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:11.800 was that there were all these very real traumas and 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:16.840 often really just physical challenges that I saw my siblings 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:18.800 go through, So I was I was exposed to that 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:19.640 from an early age. 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.840 You said something interesting, you said, going to private school 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:23.640 was merit base. 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:26.440 Well, you know, a lot of my siblings had the 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:28.960 benefit of like wonderful public schools in our in our 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:32.760 towns that we grew up in. In Connecticut, we moved 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:34.280 around a little bit. Was New York, Connecticut. 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:35.000 Born in New York. 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:36.720 I was born in New York, and then I spent 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:39.880 my teens in Connecticut. And it was kind of I 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:43.440 think it was an individual decision for each person, like, Okay, 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:45.800 what are they going to benefit from most? You know, 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.040 how good is the local school? Uh, you know what 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:51.160 makes sense? Are they really going to get a lot 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:53.560 out of some kind of a specialized program, you know, 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:56.760 whether they either you know, need more attentive education because 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.440 they've got special needs, or because they're excelling in a 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:01.600 particular way and that needs to be tended to. I'm 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:02.480 not allowed to work. 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:04.800 For your mom like that unbelievable work. 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:08.480 She was an incredible mom, and I saw her shoulder 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:12.320 this huge burden all by herself. Did you get to 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:13.440 do any of you guys have kids? 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:17.160 Yeah? I got the two boys seventeen and twelve. 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:21.560 So you know, what a handful. It's a lot. It's 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.400 a lot, and I can't imagine doing that all alone, 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:28.720 you know, while making a living with so many kids. 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:30.360 It's a lot to bite up. I definitely grew up 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:32.880 knowing that I didn't want to adopt ten kids, but 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:37.000 I also grew up really admiring the hell out of it. 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:38.560 Is it? Yeah? How is it? 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.480 Fighting for your own space and your own voice and 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:45.040 your I would assume that you have to be diplomatic, 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:47.600 and you know, the biggest vote wins and we get 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:48.280 to watch this. 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:53.360 Channel and you know, yeah, a lot of early negotiating skills. 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:54.760 I hadn't thought of it in that way, but that's 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.080 probably true. I mean a lot of fighting over food. 0:15:57.560 --> 0:15:59.160 You know, we were like we were a dark meat 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.200 family when it came to chicken, and the darkness was 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:04.680 always gone, you know, never enough drumsticks to go around. 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:06.480 Yo, son, your last name is John. 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:10.400 No, we just had a whole conversation about good hair 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:10.800 and whatnot. 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:12.480 And it's funny because that that was my next question 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:14.800 to you, like breaking down the diversity of your brothers 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:17.960 and sisters, because that provides such a different understanding for 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:19.480 you, you know, especially. 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:21.680 As a totally different understanding. I mean, look, I'm still 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:23.720 a white guy, and I would not claim to understand 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:25.360 what it's like to grow up as a black woman 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:28.200 in our society. But I can claim to understand what 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:30.640 it's like to grow up, you know, with a bedroom 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:33.400 next to the bedroom of a of a black young woman. 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:37.440 And uh, that's a lot, that's a whole. I mean, 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:39.560 I want to be careful because I was telling you before, 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.880 like I have you know, the black siblings. Yeah, I 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:46.040 have black somebs. I have Asian siblings. We were we 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:52.880 were real like United Colors of Beneton. I know, you 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.200 know I have uh you know, there are black women 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.720 in my life who are very disapproving of the Chris 0:16:57.840 --> 0:16:59.240 Rock documentary that you just mentioned. 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:01.560 The good hair, Yes we're talking, was going to put 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:03.720 you in Yeah, an interesting conversation. 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:05.720 It is an interesting conversation that people have about that. 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:07.399 And it's not really for me to say, you know, 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:08.960 how sensitive he was or not, because I'm not in 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:13.159 that demographic. But but uh, certainly I got a taste 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:17.560 of the hair traumas of honestly the childhood of just 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:19.879 about any girl of any color, because as I was 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:22.800 telling you earlier, my Asian siblings were like getting perms 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:26.320 and wanting curly hair, and you know, my black sister 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:28.840 was like, you know, going through the whole rigamarole of 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:32.760 like strainers, relaxers and you know, going out in the rain, 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:37.000 and it's all ruined. So God bless anyone who finds 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:39.439 equilibrium on their hair, whatever color that may be. 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:43.280 You you had a problem with good hair. 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:46.040 No, I thought, not me, she was. But I saw 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:46.679 the point of it. 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:48.720 I saw the point in the problem because I was saying, 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:50.600 at the end of the day, Chris Rock is a man, 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:52.520 and so it was from a perspective a man, and 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:53.520 a lot of things were left out. 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.320 That's what we're talking about Oh okay, now I watch again, 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:57.160 see I. 0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:59.720 Mean white people, I know loved that documentary cause I 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:01.840 feel I'm so full of insight now yeah, and I 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:03.600 was kind of surprised then, you know, you talked to 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:06.000 black women about it, and it's a little more split 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:08.160 down the middle, where like you found things to respect 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:08.359 in it. 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:10.359 And I mean I certainly enjoyed it, and I just 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:10.760 that it. 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:12.680 Was done and his intentions and doing it when it 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:15.720 came to that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did not 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:16.200 know that. 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:18.560 Okay, where did you go to high school? Did you 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:20.720 all go to the same high school? Well, you're all 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:21.400 not the same. 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:23.440 Age, so yeah, I mean there's a huge age span. 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:26.959 I actually did not go to high school. 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:29.840 But you went to college and like sixteen years eleven. 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:31.840 Oh wait, you deal with it. 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:36.359 As you graduated it like you graduated. 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:41.239 I was at fifteen, right, Yeah, whoa time out? This 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:42.040 about me? I'm here. 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:46.080 I did not know this about you? And wait, time out? 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:47.280 Explain your schooling. 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:55.200 I we missed that. We missed the Ron Ferro plan. 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:58.879 Look, I don't know if it's a good idea, but 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:02.199 it's what happened. I I was super nerdy and was 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:07.800 bored in school, and I was lucky enough to uh 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:12.560 get like a you know, brochure for this JOHNS. Hopkins 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:15.639 program where you can take college courses as a kid. 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:17.840 John Hopkins like nothing. 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:20.960 They have this thing. It's so embarrassed. It's called the 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:29.680 Center for Talented Youth. I'm so sorry, guys. Yeah. So anyway, 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:31.760 I and these fellow nerds would get together and like 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:35.399 take college courses in the summers. And this would have 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:39.840 been like, you know, from age nine or ten on. So, 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.919 so the the way you get into that summer camp 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:46.480 is you take the SAT. And so I took the 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:48.480 SAT and I got a score where people were like, oh, okay, 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:50.120 you should just go to college. So I just I did. 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:52.280 Wow. And this is at nine years old. 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:54.400 So the SAT, you know, I took it a couple 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:57.439 of times in that period. You had to retake it 0:19:57.440 --> 0:19:59.440 to get it. This is more detail than needed, but anyway, 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:02.720 I got a like a baller s a T score 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:03.439 kind of. 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:05.240 I did. 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:09.399 I got a perfect. No one is ever going to 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:13.800 want to be my friend, I don't. No, no, no, okay, 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:15.919 this you will be my only friends. 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:19.200 No, but peep it, peep it, all right, So. 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:22.440 Maybe I don't know if I tell the story of 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:25.280 my birth doctor or not, but like he was trying 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:27.320 to get my parents to think, you know, I was 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:29.040 born in the early seventies and there was like a 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:31.720 new way of thinking and all that stuff, and he 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:35.280 was trying to get my parents to kind of go 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:39.359 out of their their uh boundary comfort zone when it 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:44.400 came to raising me. Now they geared more towards entertainment 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:48.040 and whatnot. So he told them like, you know, when 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:49.680 he wants to write on the walls, let him write 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:50.600 on the walls, let. 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:55.520 Him anything in a black and even in the plastic covert. 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:58.760 Yeah, let him jump on the good sofa and yeah, right, 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:00.840 all by leader all this stuff. 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:03.240 But that's how became a drummer. After a while, it 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:07.760 was like, Okay, he's destroying too much furniture, what do 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:10.840 we do, Get him a drum set. And then that's 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:15.080 like around two. But he definitely said, like make sure 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:17.760 before the age of five you let him just you know, 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:19.919 he's going to be curious about a lot of things, like, 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:22.320 of course, if it's a fork to the socket stopped, Yeah, 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:25.240 but let him draw on the walls, let him play 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:25.760 in his food. 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:28.200 So would you raise any kids you have that way? 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:32.320 Hell no, you don't want to lose those couches. 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:35.080 But you see, I feel. 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:39.560 Because of I've seen the result, and I have cousins 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:46.240 that were or under a strict like this restrictive lifestyle, 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:50.960 and I've seen the results of being too restrictive what 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:55.240 that does once they're teenagers and you rebellicans. Like TV 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:58.879 was taken away from me in my formative years, but 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:02.600 as a result as an adult, like, I'm totally addicted 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:03.840 to CV, you know what I mean. 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:07.160 So it's sort of I actually had the same evolution 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:10.760 on video games where we were a new video game 0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:14.800 household and then I became like a real nerdy gamer 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:15.560 as a result. 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:16.960 What do you gang? What's what's your jointe? 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:20.800 Oh man, I've got four I'm a PS four guy 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:23.840 Paul's college. I'm sure, yeah, but kind of, you know, 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:27.639 I was so I was so subversive that, you know, 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:29.159 I was the kind of kid where when I was 0:22:29.160 --> 0:22:31.960 told you can't get a Nintendo, I was like, here 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:33.840 are all my arguments on why this is an important 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:36.920 art form and writers of my generation are going to 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:43.480 be going into video games and telling important horizon expanding stories. Yeah, 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:47.159 but also there was something about and then I would like, 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:50.400 you know, rig up emulators on my computer to get 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:53.399 the Super Nintendo games and the sixty four games, like 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:57.240 you know, just terribly like hacked together versions I'd download, 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:00.399 but so I could play them. I'm not at getting 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:04.119 piracy and emulation here. I'm just saying it was. 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:09.440 You just built your own videota. So what's so? 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:11.960 Yeah, I have a PS four. I'm I'm a I 0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:14.199 grew up on partly as a consequence of that ban 0:23:14.320 --> 0:23:17.840 on consoles, computer games which were allowed, which are a 0:23:17.920 --> 0:23:21.160 little more cerebral, like do you remember like Missed from 0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:25.160 the Night, Missed as My Jam? And there's actually now that, 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:28.159 similar to some of the transitions in the music industry, 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:31.280 there's much more of an indie scene in gaming right 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:35.560 now because you publish declined inside for four. Inside is 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:36.560 a beautiful working art. 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:37.120 That's crazy. 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:40.280 It's like Scandinavian game I think, right, maybe Danish and 0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:44.840 uh it's like black and white. Yeah, we got to 0:23:44.880 --> 0:23:49.920 go deeper on this. We're losing the rest of them. 0:23:50.560 --> 0:23:52.160 This is a side of him that I've exposed. 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:55.960 Yeah. No, we were very much a rabbit hole show. 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:58.720 Yeah, so I love the kind of the lineage of 0:23:58.760 --> 0:24:02.479 those mist adventure games and other kind of artistic games 0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:05.399 that are a little mysterious and make you think. And 0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:12.280 Flower Love Flower Love Journey, that's ny Journey's great. Yeah, 0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:14.520 there's a game from PS four called Soma, which you 0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:18.440 should one hundred percent play, like best writing, best story seen. 0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:21.399 These choose your venture games. 0:24:21.560 --> 0:24:25.440 Nah, Like Inside is is just a game where you're 0:24:25.480 --> 0:24:28.040 a kid and it just drops you in this world 0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:32.199 and you just it's a side scroller game, so like 0:24:32.320 --> 0:24:35.200 you die, so yeah, it's like Mario and you can 0:24:35.280 --> 0:24:37.320 just die in so many different ways. And it's these 0:24:37.359 --> 0:24:39.880 puzzles you have to figure out and. 0:24:39.920 --> 0:24:43.479 But it's it's a very evocative, beautiful backdrop of like 0:24:43.480 --> 0:24:47.600 a kind of an Orwellian like repressive society. So it's 0:24:47.680 --> 0:24:50.040 much more about like the experience than the puzzle. 0:24:50.160 --> 0:24:50.480 Natural. 0:24:50.800 --> 0:24:54.399 Yeah, and then Flower is like if pm don designed 0:24:54.440 --> 0:24:59.320 a game. Flower is like you where you are a 0:24:59.359 --> 0:25:05.560 pedal of a flower. It's amazing, how dude. It's you're 0:25:05.560 --> 0:25:08.040 a pedal of a flower and you play as the wind, 0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:10.800 so you have to direct the pedal to go through 0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:14.520 this garden to pick up more flowers and they the music. 0:25:14.640 --> 0:25:16.320 I want to. I don't think. 0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:22.760 Yo, I didn't, but my homies, it's a beautiful game. 0:25:22.800 --> 0:25:24.600 And like on Weed, it's even better. 0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:28.760 I love to hear this gentle soul. You love this 0:25:28.960 --> 0:25:29.560 gentle stone. 0:25:29.960 --> 0:25:31.480 But I play too, though, so I like. 0:25:34.880 --> 0:25:38.760 And Last of Us. That's like a screenplay for sure. 0:25:38.800 --> 0:25:39.560 I hear the new God. 0:25:40.440 --> 0:25:42.480 I got it. I purposely. I haven't downloaded. 0:25:42.480 --> 0:25:44.240 I haven't started yet because I got work to do, 0:25:44.320 --> 0:25:45.440 and I know once I started. 0:25:51.359 --> 0:25:54.159 First of all, hats off for Afro picks. Off to 0:25:54.200 --> 0:25:59.960 you for your for your your your New York piece. 0:26:00.359 --> 0:26:02.200 Thank you what. 0:26:03.720 --> 0:26:07.760 I mean, the what gave you. 0:26:07.160 --> 0:26:11.040 The nerve or the gall or the audacity to even say, 0:26:12.000 --> 0:26:15.920 all right, I'm gonna I'm gonna go after that, because 0:26:15.960 --> 0:26:19.240 I would have figured that every editor or every boss 0:26:19.280 --> 0:26:22.160 of yours would have tried to shut you down. 0:26:23.119 --> 0:26:23.439 Yeah. 0:26:23.480 --> 0:26:26.800 Maybe the guilt of the Democratic yeah, or the guilt 0:26:26.840 --> 0:26:29.240 of the Democratic Party, you know, being as he was 0:26:29.280 --> 0:26:31.640 one of the biggest supporters or whatever like that could have. 0:26:32.280 --> 0:26:34.840 Just like a lot of powerful forces trying to shut 0:26:34.840 --> 0:26:35.120 it down. 0:26:35.840 --> 0:26:36.240 Yeah. 0:26:36.320 --> 0:26:40.400 And how did you manage to bob and weave your 0:26:40.440 --> 0:26:43.760 way out of that to something that actually not only 0:26:43.840 --> 0:26:45.760 stuck but worked. 0:26:46.160 --> 0:26:49.159 I'm just so relieved and so grateful because of all 0:26:49.200 --> 0:26:53.560 those obstacles. You know, the most important answer is that 0:26:54.320 --> 0:26:59.119 these women who came forward did this incredibly brave and 0:26:59.160 --> 0:27:01.720 difficult thing. I mean, I worked with them for months, 0:27:01.880 --> 0:27:05.879 and we had so many tough conversations about the pros 0:27:05.960 --> 0:27:08.480 and the cons and the threats to their career and 0:27:08.520 --> 0:27:11.520 the threats to their physical safety. And you know, as 0:27:11.560 --> 0:27:13.879 you know, one of the articles I wrote exposed this 0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:18.720 whole system of hiring like combat ready, yeah, massage and yeah. 0:27:18.720 --> 0:27:21.480 I mean, like there's real cloak and dagger stuff going 0:27:21.520 --> 0:27:25.480 on here. And from the beginning, you know, the women 0:27:25.520 --> 0:27:27.960 involved in the story were warning me of that, and 0:27:28.240 --> 0:27:30.880 I knew that every single person who had told their 0:27:30.920 --> 0:27:33.959 story did it because they thought it could help protect 0:27:33.960 --> 0:27:37.520 the next woman to come along, and because they had 0:27:37.560 --> 0:27:40.840 done this incredibly difficult thing. I just wouldn't have been 0:27:40.840 --> 0:27:42.879 able to live with myself if I had allowed it 0:27:42.920 --> 0:27:45.240 to be shut down, or if I had given up. 0:27:46.160 --> 0:27:49.439 The other aspect of it is, by the time I 0:27:49.480 --> 0:27:52.320 got to the decision point of like, Okay, my life 0:27:52.400 --> 0:27:54.240 is falling apart, I got no more career, Like nothing 0:27:54.480 --> 0:27:56.840 like this is the maybe ies you know, swung too 0:27:56.840 --> 0:28:01.680 wide on this. I couldn't go back because I really had, 0:28:01.880 --> 0:28:04.640 like I gambled everything. You know, I'd spent a year 0:28:04.680 --> 0:28:07.439 of my life and all the opportunities I thought I 0:28:07.520 --> 0:28:11.439 had and was pursuing had gone away, And did you 0:28:11.440 --> 0:28:12.960 the only choice I had was to stick with it. 0:28:13.000 --> 0:28:16.280 Did you feel like your exit at MSNBC was like, 0:28:16.680 --> 0:28:18.160 was that the end of the world, like when you 0:28:18.440 --> 0:28:20.000 walked out of that building with your box? 0:28:20.080 --> 0:28:20.720 Or I don't know. 0:28:21.520 --> 0:28:24.240 I can always tell when someone leaves MSNBC because of 0:28:24.400 --> 0:28:27.720 certain white box that they carry outside of It's never 0:28:27.800 --> 0:28:29.560 happy look on their face when they're carrying. 0:28:29.800 --> 0:28:31.760 Leaving anywhere where you thought you were building a future 0:28:31.840 --> 0:28:36.080 is incredibly hard. I was at the time, not at MSNBC. 0:28:36.160 --> 0:28:39.840 I was on the Today Show. But you know, yeah, 0:28:39.880 --> 0:28:41.840 I know it all. It's all one news organization. You're 0:28:41.880 --> 0:28:44.520 right to consider it the same, uh, And you know, 0:28:44.520 --> 0:28:47.960 I'm really proud of the work the Investigative Unit did 0:28:48.080 --> 0:28:52.240 on a bunch of stories I worked on there, and yeah, 0:28:52.320 --> 0:28:54.840 you know, look, things things changed as I was working 0:28:54.880 --> 0:28:55.360 on this story. 0:28:55.440 --> 0:28:57.160 So at the time of the Today Show, did you 0:28:57.440 --> 0:29:01.280 hear any rumblings of what was happening at the time. 0:29:02.640 --> 0:29:05.520 I am going to have to be careful in this 0:29:05.560 --> 0:29:12.720 conversation about that. You too, You're a you're a tough interviewer. Look, 0:29:12.800 --> 0:29:15.520 I do think that it's you don't know, but you 0:29:15.560 --> 0:29:19.120 are the the. 0:29:18.000 --> 0:29:21.080 I thought I was asking soft questions like in the past. 0:29:21.360 --> 0:29:24.920 Look, I think there's a lot of valid questions out 0:29:24.920 --> 0:29:28.120 there about how all these things connect together. And you know, 0:29:28.280 --> 0:29:32.239 I gotta make sure that that story is told in 0:29:32.280 --> 0:29:33.320 the right way at the right time. 0:29:33.440 --> 0:29:35.080 That's what I was going to ask you, because you 0:29:35.200 --> 0:29:37.400 chose well, obviously this book must have been in the 0:29:37.440 --> 0:29:40.560 works before it was Yeah, okay, because there must be 0:29:40.600 --> 0:29:43.240 something in process to tell the story of your process 0:29:43.320 --> 0:29:44.560 in doing this article. 0:29:45.080 --> 0:29:48.840 Yeah, I think further down the line, people are right 0:29:48.920 --> 0:29:52.200 to hammer me with questions about this and and I 0:29:52.280 --> 0:29:53.280 will make sure you've. 0:29:53.800 --> 0:29:59.760 Talked about Okay, I'm sorry. I just assumed that once 0:29:59.800 --> 0:30:03.160 the he was done and yeah, that it was like. 0:30:04.400 --> 0:30:08.560 No, Look, I mean they I will say, broadly, the 0:30:08.720 --> 0:30:14.120 story behind stories like this can be important because when 0:30:14.560 --> 0:30:20.120 something this important and this dangerous stays quiet for this long, uh, 0:30:20.400 --> 0:30:22.680 that's not an accident. And there's a lot of reasons 0:30:22.720 --> 0:30:25.560 for that, And I think you know now that we 0:30:25.600 --> 0:30:29.240 are grappling with the underlying allegations, and it was really 0:30:29.240 --> 0:30:31.520 important to me that the women's stories be at the 0:30:31.560 --> 0:30:34.320 center of the conversation. So I also didn't want to 0:30:34.360 --> 0:30:36.640 distract from that. But I think as we get further 0:30:36.680 --> 0:30:39.400 and further out, you know, it will be important to 0:30:40.120 --> 0:30:42.600 really take a hard look at ourselves in the media 0:30:42.720 --> 0:30:46.000 and across our society, and and look at the systems 0:30:46.000 --> 0:30:47.440 that keep these sorts of things quiet. 0:30:47.600 --> 0:30:50.480 How long did you research that the Weinstein story? 0:30:51.400 --> 0:30:55.600 The big first interview was done in January of last year. 0:30:55.720 --> 0:30:57.920 The first you know, research and calls would have happened 0:30:57.960 --> 0:31:03.200 sort of October November of twenty sixteen. Yeah, so about 0:31:03.200 --> 0:31:03.520 a year. 0:31:04.760 --> 0:31:11.240 So your book or my book, my summering book. 0:31:11.520 --> 0:31:12.920 What did you first start? Right? 0:31:12.920 --> 0:31:14.480 By the way, I love that image of you with 0:31:14.880 --> 0:31:17.000 war on piece in your lap. I snapped the picture. 0:31:17.040 --> 0:31:18.160 I'm instagramming that. 0:31:19.040 --> 0:31:22.440 It's right here. How long was the process too? 0:31:23.360 --> 0:31:24.120 Way too long? 0:31:24.320 --> 0:31:24.520 Yeah? 0:31:24.520 --> 0:31:26.680 And you had to be fly around the world a 0:31:26.680 --> 0:31:27.600 little bit too, right? 0:31:27.680 --> 0:31:30.360 Yeah? Yeah, you saw there's all sorts of crazy exotic 0:31:30.440 --> 0:31:35.320 locations in there. It took five years, all told, to 0:31:35.760 --> 0:31:38.520 write this book, and a lot of the actual writing 0:31:38.640 --> 0:31:41.240 happened at the end. And part of that was because 0:31:41.320 --> 0:31:44.040 the Weinstein story like took over my life, and right 0:31:44.080 --> 0:31:45.360 at the moment where I was supposed to be in 0:31:45.360 --> 0:31:48.200 crunch mode for the book, I was juggling these two 0:31:48.360 --> 0:31:49.160 giant things. 0:31:49.280 --> 0:31:50.680 Were your editors understanding? 0:31:50.760 --> 0:31:55.320 Like, okay, no, no, they were not. They actually they 0:31:55.400 --> 0:31:57.560 dropped the book and I had to resell it to 0:31:57.640 --> 0:32:00.000 a wonderful team at Norton, my current publisher. 0:32:00.680 --> 0:32:03.520 Serious for a yeah, oh they are mad. They when 0:32:03.560 --> 0:32:04.040 did they drove? 0:32:04.120 --> 0:32:06.680 People are mad? A lot of people are in regret mood. 0:32:06.560 --> 0:32:08.480 Now, Yeah, because I need to know when did they drop? 0:32:09.120 --> 0:32:11.200 Right at the as the Weinstein story was heating up, 0:32:11.200 --> 0:32:17.000 This would have been like maybe April of last year. Yeah, 0:32:17.200 --> 0:32:19.240 you know, there's great, great people over there, and I'm 0:32:19.280 --> 0:32:21.400 sure they're doing fine. But it was obviously a huge 0:32:21.400 --> 0:32:24.400 blow to me personally. And there are so many brave 0:32:24.440 --> 0:32:27.680 whistleblowers that you know, they knew and I knew had 0:32:27.880 --> 0:32:31.120 gone on the record for this book, and I couldn't 0:32:31.200 --> 0:32:34.080 let them down either. Because this book is the story 0:32:34.120 --> 0:32:37.520 of first of all transformation in America's role in the world. 0:32:37.520 --> 0:32:39.480 That's really important to all of our safety. And second 0:32:39.520 --> 0:32:43.160 of all of brave men and women in an unsung 0:32:43.240 --> 0:32:46.560 career who are really getting pushed out right now and 0:32:46.640 --> 0:32:51.520 denigrated and who are profoundly misunderstood and abused by politicians. 0:32:51.680 --> 0:32:53.600 They're abused by the public because in a way public. 0:32:53.600 --> 0:32:54.880 It's funny because I was thinking. 0:32:54.640 --> 0:32:56.240 To myself in reading, because I didn't read the whole thing, 0:32:56.240 --> 0:32:57.600 but I've ran through it, and I was like, oh, 0:32:57.680 --> 0:32:59.960 so now I feel bad about beeping at the guys 0:33:00.040 --> 0:33:01.360 to get the park anywhere they want to with the 0:33:01.400 --> 0:33:04.560 diplomat tags, I was like, I'm. 0:33:04.440 --> 0:33:06.280 Going to raise in DC, so I'm to get the 0:33:06.320 --> 0:33:10.000 park he wants to. And now I get it. I'm like, Okay. 0:33:10.120 --> 0:33:13.120 You know, these are men and women who turn down 0:33:13.120 --> 0:33:15.880 opportunities to make a lot more money in the private sector, 0:33:16.360 --> 0:33:19.680 who go to the most dangerous and difficult places on 0:33:19.760 --> 0:33:22.560 Earth at times, move their families around every few years, 0:33:23.360 --> 0:33:26.240 and they do it because they know that their work 0:33:26.320 --> 0:33:29.200 makes the United States safer. Yeah. I mean they are 0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:32.200 the first line of defense against dangerous people getting into 0:33:32.240 --> 0:33:32.800 our country. 0:33:33.000 --> 0:33:33.160 Uh. 0:33:33.200 --> 0:33:35.880 They are the people responsible when you get into a 0:33:35.920 --> 0:33:39.000 crisis or take a taken hostage and you've got to 0:33:39.000 --> 0:33:42.640 get pulled out. And they're the people who, hopefully if 0:33:42.640 --> 0:33:45.800 we empower them, which we are not, broker the deals 0:33:45.840 --> 0:33:48.640 that keep our brave service men and women out of conflicts. 0:33:48.680 --> 0:33:50.520 You know, war should not be the first solution. 0:33:50.920 --> 0:33:55.040 Well, you said that people would think that with this 0:33:55.120 --> 0:34:01.000 current administration that we're quote air quote under that sort 0:34:01.040 --> 0:34:07.320 of the decline of the diplomacy overseas and other territories. 0:34:08.040 --> 0:34:09.920 Most of us would think that the the client is 0:34:09.960 --> 0:34:13.480 starting now, but you actually said that it was this 0:34:13.960 --> 0:34:16.680 has been going on, like doing the Clinton and doing 0:34:16.719 --> 0:34:19.920 the Bush Bush one and the Reagan administration. 0:34:20.080 --> 0:34:22.840 So there's two things going on here. A lot of 0:34:22.880 --> 0:34:27.920 the book is devoted to the crisis under the Trump administration. 0:34:28.400 --> 0:34:31.400 I mean, this is a crazy new extreme where we 0:34:31.440 --> 0:34:36.680 are literally purging the State Department, just mass firings, hundreds 0:34:36.680 --> 0:34:38.640 of diplomatic posts, empty. 0:34:38.360 --> 0:34:39.920 Empty, right. Can you say the number, It's not. 0:34:40.600 --> 0:34:42.520 I mean it changes all the time, So I don't 0:34:42.520 --> 0:34:43.799 want to give a number now because it will change 0:34:43.800 --> 0:34:45.879 by the time we and sometimes it gets worse not better, 0:34:45.960 --> 0:34:50.200 by the way. Yeah, but it's we're talking about you know, 0:34:50.400 --> 0:34:54.279 major embassies without an ambassador, major offices around the State 0:34:54.360 --> 0:34:59.120 Department without an assistant secretary to run that region, and 0:34:59.440 --> 0:35:02.880 it means that we're flying blind in all sorts of 0:35:02.920 --> 0:35:06.640 big challenges all around the world. I Bookend War on 0:35:06.760 --> 0:35:09.160 Peace with the story of this guy, Tom Countryman, which 0:35:09.239 --> 0:35:13.880 is his real name. Unbelievably, Yeah, that's not like a 0:35:13.880 --> 0:35:17.360 stage name, that's his real name. And he is indeed 0:35:17.400 --> 0:35:19.440 like a patriotic guy you knows, served in all these 0:35:19.520 --> 0:35:21.440 dangerous places for years and years, and he was the 0:35:21.440 --> 0:35:24.560 top official on arms control at the State Department. And 0:35:24.600 --> 0:35:28.319 he got fired within days of Trump coming in. And 0:35:29.080 --> 0:35:30.799 you think about that, like at a time when we're 0:35:30.800 --> 0:35:34.360 facing down Iran and North Korea and arms control is 0:35:34.360 --> 0:35:36.760 one of our biggest challenges. We just gave the boot 0:35:36.840 --> 0:35:40.160 to our top expert on that field. So a big 0:35:40.160 --> 0:35:42.120 part of this is the Trump era. But you're right, 0:35:43.040 --> 0:35:46.279 you know, when people say this is unprecedented, that's not 0:35:46.360 --> 0:35:49.160 quite the right word, because there's a lot of precedent 0:35:49.200 --> 0:35:51.560 you can look at and draw really clear lessons from. 0:35:52.000 --> 0:35:55.040 You mentioned the Clinton administration. Clinton over the course of 0:35:55.080 --> 0:35:59.600 the nineties cut spending on development and diplomacy by thirty percent, 0:36:00.200 --> 0:36:02.760 and we closed all sorts of embassies around the world. 0:36:03.000 --> 0:36:07.040 The embassies we had left were short funded. We shuddered 0:36:07.120 --> 0:36:11.560 two really important government agencies, one on information which obviously 0:36:11.560 --> 0:36:13.040 we could use that skill set as we go up 0:36:13.040 --> 0:36:17.920 against ISIS propaganda, one on arms control. And you know, 0:36:18.719 --> 0:36:23.200 these are lasting pieces of damage that we really felt 0:36:23.239 --> 0:36:26.240 after nine to eleven when we needed diplomats more and instead, 0:36:26.880 --> 0:36:30.360 obviously what we've seen is everything gets run through the Pentagon. 0:36:31.000 --> 0:36:32.000 Yeah, yeah, book. 0:36:32.160 --> 0:36:34.120 It's interesting because number one, I wanted to big you 0:36:34.160 --> 0:36:36.440 up because the way you kind of explain things as 0:36:36.480 --> 0:36:38.600 you go and you learn about the State Department and 0:36:38.600 --> 0:36:41.359 you learn about everybody's role. But it also becomes very 0:36:41.400 --> 0:36:44.319 scary as you really realize, to dumb it down, that 0:36:44.800 --> 0:36:47.960 we don't have as many friends in these countries as 0:36:47.960 --> 0:36:50.640 we used to and when it comes to American representation, 0:36:50.760 --> 0:36:52.560 which is kind of scary. And then it goes back 0:36:52.560 --> 0:36:54.000 to the White House, who we are the only ones 0:36:54.040 --> 0:36:57.359 really communicating with these outside entities, which is. 0:36:59.080 --> 0:37:01.920 Yeah, are you saying in the case of North Korea 0:37:02.640 --> 0:37:06.040 there should have been way more. Did we ever have 0:37:06.160 --> 0:37:07.720 representation in North Korea? 0:37:07.840 --> 0:37:08.280 At all? 0:37:08.719 --> 0:37:12.640 So it's not about wanting an embassy there, you know, 0:37:12.640 --> 0:37:14.640 I think everyone agrees that, like, it wouldn't be the 0:37:14.719 --> 0:37:17.719 right thing to recognize them as a state in that 0:37:17.800 --> 0:37:20.520 way at present until they reform in a whole lot 0:37:20.520 --> 0:37:23.720 of ways. But what we have had in recent history 0:37:23.920 --> 0:37:28.960 are really concerted efforts led by really experienced diplomats to 0:37:29.120 --> 0:37:31.680 have talks with them and other players in the region 0:37:31.719 --> 0:37:33.600 that can kind of squeeze them and exert pressure, like 0:37:33.640 --> 0:37:37.319 the Chinese. So under George W. Bush, for instance, there 0:37:37.320 --> 0:37:39.719 were six party talks led by this guy Chris Hill, 0:37:39.760 --> 0:37:43.040 who's a career diplomat who's profiled in this book. And 0:37:43.120 --> 0:37:45.600 you know, it's too simple to say that he just failed. 0:37:45.960 --> 0:37:48.200 You know, they worked really hard around the clock for 0:37:48.239 --> 0:37:51.000 a long time. They got North Korea to shut down 0:37:51.040 --> 0:37:53.719 some of its reactors for the first time. They got 0:37:53.760 --> 0:37:56.960 some concessions and some transparency. In the end, you know, 0:37:57.040 --> 0:37:58.880 it fell through North Korea and followed through to the 0:37:58.920 --> 0:38:01.880 extent we wanted. But there were significant inroads made in 0:38:01.920 --> 0:38:04.480 our ability to talk to China about this. And we've 0:38:04.520 --> 0:38:06.319 just thrown that all out since then. 0:38:06.400 --> 0:38:07.960 And because Trump said he's the reason that we have 0:38:08.160 --> 0:38:09.080 where China is. 0:38:09.280 --> 0:38:12.880 Yeah, yeah, And you know, Trump is trumpeting a lot 0:38:13.000 --> 0:38:21.000 about the I'm so sorry for that accidental point about this, 0:38:21.080 --> 0:38:23.680 you know, meeting potentially leader to leader in the North 0:38:23.719 --> 0:38:26.279 Korea crisis. I just got to say, and this is 0:38:26.280 --> 0:38:28.680 addressed in the book. What all the experts who have 0:38:28.719 --> 0:38:31.520 been immersed in trying to crack the North Korea problem 0:38:31.520 --> 0:38:35.280 for years say is time will tell what that means 0:38:35.400 --> 0:38:39.440 a meeting like that, because North Korea is really wily. 0:38:39.680 --> 0:38:42.439 They lie all the time, and there's a real risk 0:38:42.480 --> 0:38:44.760 that we get played. If you go into a meeting 0:38:44.880 --> 0:38:48.440 leader to leader, it can be a way to legitimize 0:38:48.440 --> 0:38:51.279 them as a nuclear power. They can run around saying, hey, 0:38:51.320 --> 0:38:53.160 now we're recognized and we can have new because that's 0:38:53.200 --> 0:38:58.480 one of their key demands. We don't necessarily have a 0:38:58.680 --> 0:39:01.719 long term strategy in which to embed that meeting. And 0:39:01.760 --> 0:39:04.040 that's a problem because we no longer have a corps 0:39:04.080 --> 0:39:06.840 of experts devoted to North Korea at the State Department. 0:39:14.840 --> 0:39:16.040 I was like, so this is not going to have 0:39:16.080 --> 0:39:18.759 a happy ending, because we're still useful too. 0:39:18.920 --> 0:39:20.680 There's some hope in this book. I mean, I talk 0:39:20.719 --> 0:39:23.680 about the fact that there are still these brave men 0:39:23.680 --> 0:39:26.760 and women doing this work in difficult places around the world, 0:39:26.840 --> 0:39:29.000 and and I talk about some of the examples in 0:39:29.040 --> 0:39:31.640 recent history that suggests that if we support them, you 0:39:31.760 --> 0:39:33.400 can actually turn things around. 0:39:33.800 --> 0:39:36.320 So where are so where do you think it's important? 0:39:36.320 --> 0:39:38.520 And they are there because they've been pulled out of 0:39:38.560 --> 0:39:39.200 so many places. 0:39:39.239 --> 0:39:40.319 I have one quick question there. 0:39:42.360 --> 0:39:46.359 I believe that, you know, obviously, in the name of pettiness, 0:39:47.719 --> 0:39:51.799 I believe the Trump administration this is setting down UH 0:39:51.920 --> 0:39:54.880 or firing UH at will. 0:39:54.760 --> 0:39:55.560 Who he pleases. 0:39:56.760 --> 0:40:01.040 What were the reasons or at least between the Reagan 0:40:01.280 --> 0:40:04.640 and the Obama administration, did you see the decline of 0:40:05.280 --> 0:40:08.759 diplomacy around the world, Like, what were the reasons of 0:40:09.120 --> 0:40:13.360 Were they saying that, Okay, this particular place in Zambia 0:40:13.600 --> 0:40:18.359 or or this African nation, we don't need you know, 0:40:18.520 --> 0:40:19.680 five diplomats there. 0:40:20.000 --> 0:40:23.520 So I'm careful not to oversimplify the problem. 0:40:24.080 --> 0:40:24.239 UH. 0:40:25.080 --> 0:40:28.759 The State Department bureaucracy is slow moving, it's broken and 0:40:28.800 --> 0:40:32.080 outdated in a lot of ways. And you know, part 0:40:32.120 --> 0:40:34.319 of this conversation is people saying, well, we need to 0:40:34.400 --> 0:40:38.279 cut back because we need to reform, and I think 0:40:38.320 --> 0:40:42.640 that that's not unreasonable. You know, intelligent reform where we 0:40:42.680 --> 0:40:46.960 reshape what our diplomacy looks like, is a great. 0:40:46.760 --> 0:40:48.480 Idea, but there's no plan. 0:40:48.719 --> 0:40:50.760 No, there's no plan. They are cutting. 0:40:50.840 --> 0:40:53.160 What's the soul, not fat, what's the idea plan? 0:40:53.880 --> 0:40:55.960 Well, you know, the example I would point to is, 0:40:56.000 --> 0:40:58.799 since you were asking about history, you know, during World 0:40:58.840 --> 0:41:00.360 War Two, I went back and found a lot of 0:41:00.360 --> 0:41:03.920 the old headlines covering the State Department then, and they 0:41:04.040 --> 0:41:06.920 sound a whole lot like headlines about the Rex Tillerson 0:41:06.960 --> 0:41:10.400 State Department in the past year, people saying we've got 0:41:10.440 --> 0:41:14.040 a broken State Department. You know, it's not doing its job. 0:41:14.280 --> 0:41:15.719 You know, we need to throw it out the window. 0:41:15.760 --> 0:41:18.600 We need to reform it. And what's interesting is what 0:41:18.640 --> 0:41:21.560 we did then, which is instead of throwing it out, 0:41:21.760 --> 0:41:24.719 we really reshaped it for a modern era. You know, 0:41:25.320 --> 0:41:28.200 mass communication was on the rise. We created all sorts 0:41:28.239 --> 0:41:31.680 of new offices and new priorities. We cut older offices 0:41:31.680 --> 0:41:34.440 that were now outdated, and you ended up with a 0:41:34.480 --> 0:41:36.960 period where we had the creation of you know, NATO 0:41:37.040 --> 0:41:39.080 and the UN and the World Bank and all of 0:41:39.120 --> 0:41:41.640 these structures we still rely on. So I think you 0:41:41.760 --> 0:41:42.600 can reform it. 0:41:42.600 --> 0:41:44.440 Is that want this administration, though. 0:41:44.800 --> 0:41:46.360 This administration doesn't seem to want it. 0:41:46.480 --> 0:41:49.520 This is what I'm saying. It's gonna be empty positions, yes, emptiness. 0:41:49.640 --> 0:41:52.920 Yeah, I'm curious to get your take on what you 0:41:53.000 --> 0:41:57.520 think the role of technology plays in kind of our 0:41:57.560 --> 0:42:00.480 decline of diplomacy, just because this is the first time 0:42:00.520 --> 0:42:02.600 I think we're just living in the air where information 0:42:03.200 --> 0:42:07.439 and misinformation just flies so fast, you know what I mean. 0:42:07.480 --> 0:42:10.480 And so I'm curious, what do you think, Like, you know, 0:42:10.480 --> 0:42:12.759 when you were talking about you know, like forty hell 0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:15.399 not even forty years ago, like during the Bush one, 0:42:15.480 --> 0:42:17.680 I mean, there was no Twitter, there was no social media. 0:42:18.040 --> 0:42:21.879 So now stories can break and you know, it may 0:42:21.920 --> 0:42:23.759 be all the way source, it may be whatever, but 0:42:23.880 --> 0:42:27.400 it can just go so off the rails. What do 0:42:27.440 --> 0:42:30.640 you think the role that social media has played, either 0:42:30.680 --> 0:42:32.240 good or bad, like in the role. 0:42:32.120 --> 0:42:32.560 Of all that. 0:42:32.640 --> 0:42:34.759 It's a really good question, and it's something I talk 0:42:34.800 --> 0:42:40.200 about a lot in the book. The rise of instant 0:42:40.200 --> 0:42:47.080 communication technology has profoundly affected the role of diplomats. Right, 0:42:47.160 --> 0:42:50.080 you don't need an ambassador in a foreign land to 0:42:50.200 --> 0:42:54.640 deliver a message anymore, like that cool kind of magical 0:42:54.680 --> 0:42:57.800 responsibility that they once had of here is a letter 0:42:58.400 --> 0:43:02.080 from the United States. Isn't how it works anymore? And 0:43:02.160 --> 0:43:05.440 I think that that's part of what allows some of 0:43:05.480 --> 0:43:09.719 this destructive political rhetoric where there's just the constant denigration 0:43:09.800 --> 0:43:12.480 of diplomats says, you know, dusty bureaucrats who don't get 0:43:12.480 --> 0:43:15.439 anything done, which I think is really unfair and short 0:43:15.560 --> 0:43:18.920 changes the important work they do. The fact that we 0:43:18.960 --> 0:43:21.840 don't need letters delivered in person anymore doesn't mean that 0:43:21.840 --> 0:43:25.680 we don't need experts who understand the most complicated crises 0:43:25.719 --> 0:43:28.399 on Earth and know how to get American citizens out 0:43:28.440 --> 0:43:32.320 and protect their interests and cut deals that advance our influence. 0:43:33.080 --> 0:43:34.920 Yeah. 0:43:35.040 --> 0:43:40.040 So, if we are lacking, or if we're declining, and 0:43:40.160 --> 0:43:43.919 I don't know how sharp that decline is, I think 0:43:43.960 --> 0:43:47.640 I know the answer. But who is picking up the 0:43:48.640 --> 0:43:51.960 slack and who is slow to win? Who's on point 0:43:52.080 --> 0:43:52.439 right now? 0:43:52.480 --> 0:43:56.200 As far as I'm glad you asked that, because one 0:43:56.239 --> 0:43:59.560 of the kind of the like shadow that is cast 0:43:59.600 --> 0:44:02.600 over this story in the book is that China is 0:44:02.640 --> 0:44:04.840 doing the opposite thing right now. And you know, I 0:44:04.880 --> 0:44:07.760 don't mean to hold up China as some paragon of virtue. 0:44:07.800 --> 0:44:10.320 I think it's pretty troubling if China is filling the space. 0:44:11.040 --> 0:44:15.160 But the fact is, yes, I mean I think there 0:44:15.200 --> 0:44:17.920 are pros and cons to Chinese leadership, and it varies 0:44:17.920 --> 0:44:21.840 around the world, but certainly I do think the United States, 0:44:22.280 --> 0:44:25.840 despite all of our flaws, is still a more sincere 0:44:25.880 --> 0:44:30.400 and ardent defender of human rights. And I do think 0:44:30.440 --> 0:44:33.879 that we want American influence, you know, in large parts, 0:44:33.920 --> 0:44:35.759 despite all the ways in which we screw up and 0:44:35.760 --> 0:44:37.480 can be a malign influence. I think it is a 0:44:37.520 --> 0:44:42.080 good thing for the world if we are running things correctly. 0:44:42.640 --> 0:44:46.880 And what we're seeing right now is in important places 0:44:46.920 --> 0:44:51.239 around the world, China is investing in more and more diplomats. 0:44:51.320 --> 0:44:54.120 And I'll give you an example. You know, I was 0:44:54.160 --> 0:44:59.040 in Sudan for a while, and in Sudan, China for 0:44:59.080 --> 0:45:00.680 a long time played the role that we kind of 0:45:00.680 --> 0:45:03.120 stereotypically think of China as playing, which where they're this 0:45:03.440 --> 0:45:06.239 interloper that is totally callous about human rights and they're 0:45:06.239 --> 0:45:09.000 extracting the oil and like aiding and a bedding a genocide. 0:45:09.600 --> 0:45:11.000 And I wrote about that a lot at the time. 0:45:11.520 --> 0:45:15.760 Now China has like a regional envoy who's doing shuttle 0:45:15.800 --> 0:45:18.640 diplomacy trying to like cut a peace deal there, so 0:45:18.680 --> 0:45:21.560 they have a whole Yeah, they because they want to 0:45:21.600 --> 0:45:25.160 ascend to a status of global leadership, and there are 0:45:25.239 --> 0:45:27.520 kids all around the world growing up with really clear 0:45:27.800 --> 0:45:31.440 signs of Chinese leadership and development, big infrastructure projects in 0:45:31.480 --> 0:45:33.719 places where we no longer even have embassies. 0:45:34.080 --> 0:45:34.520 Wow. 0:45:34.960 --> 0:45:39.040 Yeah, yeah, that's kind of my reaction to that. 0:45:39.040 --> 0:45:39.880 That's not learn. 0:45:41.719 --> 0:45:43.640 Kinda yeah, we got to do our role. Call a 0:45:43.719 --> 0:45:44.600 Mandarin next time. 0:45:50.640 --> 0:45:53.879 Let me ask, let me ask you. You know, I'll 0:45:53.960 --> 0:45:58.439 say that at least okay. You know, I still watch 0:45:58.520 --> 0:46:02.040 Mantle Show, and it's sort of kind of like my 0:46:02.040 --> 0:46:06.360 my lullaby, like I gotta see what, you know, just 0:46:06.400 --> 0:46:07.399 suck and sleep at night. 0:46:10.200 --> 0:46:11.480 She's great, She's so principal. 0:46:11.560 --> 0:46:16.360 Am I am? I? Am I? It is twenty eighteen 0:46:16.480 --> 0:46:20.000 a pipe dream? Is it? In terms of impeachment, it's no. 0:46:20.080 --> 0:46:22.960 In terms of midterms, the idea of like do you 0:46:23.280 --> 0:46:23.760 do you? 0:46:23.840 --> 0:46:26.279 Oh man, I'm not going to handicap that race. All 0:46:26.320 --> 0:46:28.840 I can say is I'm going to keep on telling 0:46:28.880 --> 0:46:32.359 stories that I hope are relevant to voters as they 0:46:32.360 --> 0:46:35.440 make informed decisions. And you know, I've been exposing some 0:46:35.480 --> 0:46:38.759 of these secret election season payments in my latest round 0:46:38.800 --> 0:46:41.919 of New Yorker Stories, and I think there's a lot 0:46:41.960 --> 0:46:45.240 to uncover here about the abuse of power and how 0:46:45.360 --> 0:46:49.600 powerful people can distort people's perceptions during an election. And 0:46:50.080 --> 0:46:53.959 it's not my job to project whether that has any 0:46:54.000 --> 0:46:56.040 impact or to hope that it doesn't impact. 0:46:56.160 --> 0:46:58.200 Are you speaking of the Facebook situation or. 0:46:58.239 --> 0:47:00.759 The that that's part of the whole soup of things 0:47:00.800 --> 0:47:02.799 that happened. But the last few stories I did were 0:47:02.840 --> 0:47:07.560 about secret payments to to silence stories, this practice of 0:47:07.640 --> 0:47:10.719 catch and kill where there were you know, stories that 0:47:11.480 --> 0:47:14.320 might have seen the light of day and didn't because 0:47:14.440 --> 0:47:18.040 of transactions that were covered up at the time, seemingly 0:47:18.080 --> 0:47:18.960 on behalf of the president. 0:47:19.160 --> 0:47:23.319 But it's obvious that people, uh, you know, he wants 0:47:23.320 --> 0:47:25.080 to make that statement, like I could stand on Fifth 0:47:25.120 --> 0:47:29.919 Avenue somebody and nothing what happened to me? And I'm 0:47:29.920 --> 0:47:34.320 almost thinking, like, oh, he's absolutely right, Like his believer 0:47:34.400 --> 0:47:35.480 is going to believe what they believe. 0:47:35.600 --> 0:47:36.520 That's what I was thinking. 0:47:36.520 --> 0:47:38.560 But in a case, But but then there's a case 0:47:38.600 --> 0:47:43.000 of like Sinais Wayne's statement last week where she said 0:47:43.040 --> 0:47:45.359 that you know, as a Canadian and I know, like 0:47:45.400 --> 0:47:47.600 there's there's the people that scare me. 0:47:47.520 --> 0:47:49.359 The most, She'd vote for. 0:47:50.880 --> 0:48:00.080 Yeah, because she felt he told the truth but but 0:48:00.120 --> 0:48:05.200 the thing is is that I believe that if she 0:48:05.440 --> 0:48:09.759 truly saw what was happening and was informed, she would 0:48:09.960 --> 0:48:10.560 know better. 0:48:10.760 --> 0:48:12.960 But the problem is, you guys have to get on. 0:48:15.600 --> 0:48:19.560 I'm not caping for Shania whatsoever, but this is the 0:48:19.600 --> 0:48:24.600 person that I know, Like I keep my television on 0:48:24.760 --> 0:48:29.279 twenty four to seven watching news. Now this is subsequently 0:48:29.360 --> 0:48:32.719 also bringing down my spirit as a human being? Am 0:48:32.719 --> 0:48:35.839 I being less productive because I gotta keep I gotta 0:48:35.840 --> 0:48:38.320 figure out even when I bust into Zara's office, who's 0:48:38.360 --> 0:48:39.400 not speaking at all? 0:48:39.520 --> 0:48:42.000 Right now? For now? 0:48:42.160 --> 0:48:43.680 I know, do we get one sound bite? 0:48:43.719 --> 0:48:46.840 By the end, she literally like, I wanted you to 0:48:46.880 --> 0:48:48.239 ask about Mike Pompeiio. 0:48:48.600 --> 0:48:52.000 Okay, why don't you ask about what? 0:48:52.000 --> 0:48:54.520 Do you want to know what about Mike? I was 0:48:54.560 --> 0:48:56.439 wondering if you think things are going to get better 0:48:56.520 --> 0:48:57.520 if she gets in there? 0:48:58.200 --> 0:49:02.200 So I would say today things one is, here's what 0:49:02.239 --> 0:49:04.600 we know about Mike Pompeo's record in terms of his 0:49:04.640 --> 0:49:09.880 position on the issues. You know, he's extremely hawkish. He 0:49:10.880 --> 0:49:15.080 has been right there with the President saber rattling about 0:49:15.160 --> 0:49:19.719 dismantling the Iran deal and stepping away from a diplomatic 0:49:19.760 --> 0:49:26.440 approach you know, the president sent him right after firing 0:49:26.480 --> 0:49:29.719 Rex Tillerson to meet with the North Koreans, you know, 0:49:29.760 --> 0:49:33.040 while he was CIA director. So he's already been sort 0:49:33.080 --> 0:49:35.359 of part of this moment where we're seeing the work 0:49:35.360 --> 0:49:41.040 of diplomats outsourced to soldiers and spies. That said, I've 0:49:41.320 --> 0:49:43.960 continued to talk to all these whistleblowers whose stories are 0:49:43.960 --> 0:49:48.359 in war on peace, and hope really springs eternal with them. 0:49:48.400 --> 0:49:49.919 You know, they in there. 0:49:50.120 --> 0:49:52.080 This is not a this is not a first time thing. 0:49:52.120 --> 0:49:54.279 Because Colin, they made a mistake of the Clinton right, 0:49:54.280 --> 0:49:56.880 the Clint administration made a mistake with Colin Powell, and 0:49:56.920 --> 0:50:00.120 they say that they made a mistake with placing diplomacy. 0:50:00.360 --> 0:50:03.680 I think multiple administrations realized they made a mistake on this. 0:50:04.000 --> 0:50:06.800 You know, late in the game. The Clinton administration, after 0:50:07.160 --> 0:50:10.279 his first Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, sounded a whole 0:50:10.360 --> 0:50:13.240 lot like Rex Tillerson defending these deep cuts to the department. 0:50:13.719 --> 0:50:17.239 Madeline Albright came in and was much more focused on 0:50:17.600 --> 0:50:22.120 large scale diplomacy. During the Bush administration, you know, after 0:50:22.160 --> 0:50:25.360 the disasters of Iraq, condalize rices on the record in 0:50:25.360 --> 0:50:28.400 this book talking about you know, needing more diplomacy, and 0:50:28.719 --> 0:50:30.839 that's the period in which they took this run at 0:50:30.840 --> 0:50:33.760 the North Korea problem, and I talk about that as well. 0:50:34.520 --> 0:50:37.240 Often this realization comes too late. There are senior Obama 0:50:37.280 --> 0:50:41.440 administration officials saying, you know, we kind of expressing regret 0:50:41.480 --> 0:50:44.480 about the fact that they had an Afghanistan policy that 0:50:44.560 --> 0:50:48.200 was really overtaken by celebrity generals, and how they tried 0:50:48.239 --> 0:50:51.400 to course correct and get more diplomatic views in the 0:50:51.440 --> 0:50:54.719 room later on, and you wound up with the Iran Deal, 0:50:55.160 --> 0:50:59.400 the thaw in relations with Cuba, the Paris Climate Change Accord. 0:50:59.560 --> 0:51:02.760 So if you invest in diplomacy, you can get results. 0:51:02.760 --> 0:51:04.759 You just have to have leadership. And you know, to 0:51:04.760 --> 0:51:07.239 circle it back to Mike Pompeo, I think there's a 0:51:07.280 --> 0:51:10.000 lot of hope right now about him. There's a lot 0:51:10.040 --> 0:51:15.239 of sincere hope that he will invest in diplomacy and 0:51:15.440 --> 0:51:18.600 defend that institution and believe in the brave men and 0:51:18.640 --> 0:51:21.880 women working there, which we haven't seen so far in 0:51:21.920 --> 0:51:22.640 this administration. 0:51:25.080 --> 0:51:27.040 What's going to be the final Jenga cube that you 0:51:27.080 --> 0:51:28.680 pull that everything's going to crumble down? 0:51:30.000 --> 0:51:30.520 Oh man? 0:51:31.160 --> 0:51:33.120 Because it seems like do you feel the pressure, because 0:51:33.600 --> 0:51:35.400 I don't want to put that on you, but I 0:51:35.440 --> 0:51:38.719 feel like I'm sure you did it before you can 0:51:38.760 --> 0:51:42.319 do it again. One of you is going to get that. 0:51:42.440 --> 0:51:47.640 All the presidents men like a movie like not that 0:51:47.719 --> 0:51:48.280 that should. 0:51:48.040 --> 0:51:49.480 Be your motivation. I thought it was going to be 0:51:49.480 --> 0:51:49.960 stormy day. 0:51:50.160 --> 0:51:53.600 It's not. It's not my job to, you know, try 0:51:53.640 --> 0:51:56.239 to bring down anyone. It wasn't even my job to 0:51:56.239 --> 0:51:58.600 try to bring down Harvey Weinstein. My job was to 0:51:58.600 --> 0:52:02.000 make those survivors feel heard, which they hadn't been for 0:52:02.040 --> 0:52:04.920 a long time. And I think similarly with the reporting 0:52:04.960 --> 0:52:07.640 I've done on the Trump administration and even the stories 0:52:07.680 --> 0:52:10.439 I tell in this book. You know, my job is 0:52:10.520 --> 0:52:13.560 to get as close to the truth as possible and 0:52:13.640 --> 0:52:15.959 to pull back the curtain on stuff that people haven't 0:52:16.000 --> 0:52:16.840 wanted you to see. 0:52:16.920 --> 0:52:18.800 How how can you okay? 0:52:18.840 --> 0:52:21.080 So doubling back to because I realized I didn't, I 0:52:21.080 --> 0:52:26.600 didn't clear myself up with snill listen. 0:52:26.640 --> 0:52:28.759 My point was that I feel as though there are 0:52:28.800 --> 0:52:34.840 people who their whole thing is I just can't. I 0:52:34.880 --> 0:52:37.960 can't watch the news. It it kills me inside. 0:52:38.000 --> 0:52:41.960 And I understand, you know, it's so overwhelming to deal 0:52:42.000 --> 0:52:45.279 with your life and then to see what's happening in 0:52:45.400 --> 0:52:49.440 life there. But it's like, I just I'm one of 0:52:49.440 --> 0:52:51.359 those people that has to keep an eye even though 0:52:51.400 --> 0:52:52.600 I'm not totally immersed in it. 0:52:52.640 --> 0:52:55.719 And you know, I'm yeah, but you care. 0:52:56.960 --> 0:52:59.600 Yeah, And I don't feel as though people don't care, 0:52:59.640 --> 0:53:01.120 but I I do feel that there are a set 0:53:01.160 --> 0:53:06.399 of people that because it won't affect them easily as 0:53:06.400 --> 0:53:09.400 it will others. You know, like I have friends and 0:53:09.440 --> 0:53:13.799 family that are already affected by the doctor situation. You 0:53:13.800 --> 0:53:16.520 know what I'm saying, Yeah, that shit affects me. But 0:53:18.600 --> 0:53:23.080 how do you reach people that are indifferent to watching 0:53:23.120 --> 0:53:25.000 the news that. 0:53:26.360 --> 0:53:27.839 You know, if I can get through a day where 0:53:27.880 --> 0:53:28.440 I don't have. 0:53:28.440 --> 0:53:32.640 To explain to someone and filter it and explaining their 0:53:32.719 --> 0:53:35.799 language that they understand what's going on. Or sometimes I 0:53:35.960 --> 0:53:38.480 go in Zarrors room, I'm like, all right, that hour 0:53:38.480 --> 0:53:41.359 where I'm shooting fallon six o'clock, using my first thing 0:53:41.400 --> 0:53:42.320 is all right, what happened? 0:53:42.920 --> 0:53:43.120 You know? 0:53:43.840 --> 0:53:46.160 And based on her face some days she's crying because 0:53:46.200 --> 0:53:51.000 some shit happened, or you know, it's how how do 0:53:51.040 --> 0:53:56.919 you how do how do journalists get their groove back 0:53:57.040 --> 0:54:03.760 where you know, where you're counterattacking propaganda television like Fox. 0:54:03.880 --> 0:54:06.000 Can I call them that? I think that is there 0:54:06.040 --> 0:54:06.399 one person? 0:54:07.680 --> 0:54:10.440 Yeah, there are there are individual people at Fox I respect, 0:54:10.440 --> 0:54:11.680 but I do think that. 0:54:12.400 --> 0:54:16.759 Who are they? Who's the two people that you know? 0:54:16.800 --> 0:54:22.080 Look, I think Shep Smith does fairly straight coverage. Actually yeah, yeah, 0:54:22.120 --> 0:54:24.080 you know, he's okay. And I think there are people 0:54:24.120 --> 0:54:27.160 like uh, you know, I don't want to endorse everything 0:54:27.160 --> 0:54:29.359 each of these people does wholesale, but like Brett Bair 0:54:29.480 --> 0:54:31.799 does some sort of more I think, you know, on 0:54:31.840 --> 0:54:34.439 those straight and narrow news kind of stuff. But but yes, 0:54:34.640 --> 0:54:39.560 I think overall, you know, that is an organization with 0:54:39.760 --> 0:54:43.080 some very clear ties to the people that are covering. 0:54:43.160 --> 0:54:46.200 And how come they do a lot of damage to 0:54:46.200 --> 0:54:47.560 the conversation? I do think that. 0:54:48.080 --> 0:54:51.439 But how come the world just can't not the world 0:54:51.440 --> 0:54:53.400 where Americans can't see that? 0:54:54.000 --> 0:54:56.719 Well, So, so to your first point, I think you've 0:54:56.800 --> 0:54:59.880 highlighted one of the most important and difficult challenges we 0:55:00.120 --> 0:55:05.719 have as a society and as reporters too. Apathy is 0:55:05.760 --> 0:55:09.000 in a lot of ways the enemy of progress, and 0:55:10.120 --> 0:55:12.520 it's one of the toughest nuts to crack. I totally 0:55:12.560 --> 0:55:17.000 get and empathize with the fact that people despair when 0:55:17.000 --> 0:55:18.919 they watch the news and they just want to turn away. 0:55:19.040 --> 0:55:21.360 It's overwhelming to people get overwhelmed. 0:55:21.440 --> 0:55:24.600 Yeah, and I do think that the mainstream media deserves 0:55:24.600 --> 0:55:28.719 some blame for the way the twenty four hour news. 0:55:27.800 --> 0:55:30.480 It goes off. Yeah, you have to turn it off, 0:55:30.520 --> 0:55:31.520 like you have to set your right. 0:55:32.160 --> 0:55:34.719 It's alienated and it's the same story, sometimes not the 0:55:34.760 --> 0:55:36.600 same stories, but yeah, the same stories. 0:55:36.680 --> 0:55:39.799 So I think we're part of the problem is systemic 0:55:39.840 --> 0:55:44.200 where there is a broken news system, where the business 0:55:44.200 --> 0:55:47.520 model is built around reritting, rereading the same headline over 0:55:47.560 --> 0:55:49.960 and over again and not offering anything new to the conversation, 0:55:50.560 --> 0:55:52.399 or doing the other thing that's cheap and easy, which 0:55:52.400 --> 0:55:53.759 is put people in a room and having them shout 0:55:53.760 --> 0:55:56.520 at each other. Yea, all of which I think has 0:55:56.800 --> 0:56:01.120 conspired to make people tune out. And that's really dangerous 0:56:01.120 --> 0:56:03.839 because we need people who like all of you sitting here, 0:56:03.920 --> 0:56:06.480 really profoundly care and are going to be engaged and 0:56:06.719 --> 0:56:09.800 cry if the new cycle dictates that, and want to 0:56:09.840 --> 0:56:12.640 stand up and do something. We all need that. And 0:56:12.680 --> 0:56:16.400 so you know, I hope in the small part that 0:56:16.560 --> 0:56:19.279 I do to tell stories, I'm doing it in a 0:56:19.280 --> 0:56:22.600 way where people know, it's not part of just hammering 0:56:22.640 --> 0:56:24.440 them over the head with the same old headlines. It's 0:56:24.480 --> 0:56:28.359 not part of the partisan echo chamber, you know, it's 0:56:28.360 --> 0:56:30.360 really giving them some facts that maybe they can be 0:56:30.520 --> 0:56:31.960 armed with as they make decisions. 0:56:32.680 --> 0:56:37.319 Has anyone approached you yet about doing movies about any 0:56:37.320 --> 0:56:39.880 of yourself, like either warm Piece or your Weinstein stuff, 0:56:40.000 --> 0:56:42.399 because I think that's gonna be when you talk about 0:56:42.520 --> 0:56:44.480 how you reach people. Yeah, getting over the abbe because 0:56:44.480 --> 0:56:46.759 I'm one of those people, you know, I'm straight up 0:56:46.800 --> 0:56:48.520 like yo, all the Trump. So I'm just like, yo, 0:56:48.760 --> 0:56:50.600 just I'm just waiting for Jerry brook Kamer to make 0:56:50.600 --> 0:56:51.359 the movie. 0:56:52.800 --> 0:57:02.080 And I will choice cast with Trump. That's just party 0:57:02.120 --> 0:57:02.520 going on. 0:57:03.320 --> 0:57:05.440 Yeah, man, Like I'm just waiting because it's just so 0:57:05.680 --> 0:57:08.560 much information and you don't know what's what, what's allied, 0:57:08.600 --> 0:57:11.200 what's true. So I would probably fall into one of 0:57:11.200 --> 0:57:13.719 the category. I'm not just totally apathetic, you know, I 0:57:14.080 --> 0:57:16.520 stay up to some degree, but certainly it's a point 0:57:16.560 --> 0:57:18.080 where you kind of have to shut down. Like, look, 0:57:18.440 --> 0:57:20.120 I got kids to raise. I gotta do my things, 0:57:20.160 --> 0:57:22.080 so I can't be innundated with it all the time. 0:57:22.440 --> 0:57:25.400 But I was curious if anyone has because all this stuff, 0:57:25.440 --> 0:57:27.600 I mean, just the past couple of years of your life, 0:57:27.960 --> 0:57:30.000 it's prime ready for us. 0:57:30.040 --> 0:57:32.320 There's some crazy stories there. Look, I have a lot 0:57:32.360 --> 0:57:36.120 of respect for storytelling in different mediums and the power 0:57:36.160 --> 0:57:38.640 to expand people's horizons with these stories. 0:57:40.280 --> 0:57:41.880 If you can, if you can't, give it up, I mean, 0:57:41.960 --> 0:57:44.120 I get, don't don't fuck up the bad I think. 0:57:47.040 --> 0:57:47.920 You know, I understand. 0:57:48.120 --> 0:57:52.400 I think you're right. I think that you know. These 0:57:52.440 --> 0:57:56.080 stories can reach different audiences if you if you tell 0:57:56.120 --> 0:57:59.919 them right, whether it's in you know, a careful piece 0:57:59.920 --> 0:58:04.440 of investigative reporting, or a movie or a book or 0:58:04.480 --> 0:58:07.120 a song. I mean, there's a lot of ways to 0:58:08.600 --> 0:58:11.960 move people and help them understand important issues we all 0:58:12.000 --> 0:58:12.440 grapple with. 0:58:12.760 --> 0:58:16.880 Because I thought you before, I know, because before, I 0:58:17.000 --> 0:58:20.240 like before we kind of my prepping for this. I 0:58:20.360 --> 0:58:22.959 watched The Paternal If you watch the joint on HBO, 0:58:23.040 --> 0:58:23.959 the Paternal I haven't. 0:58:24.040 --> 0:58:24.320 Is it good? 0:58:24.440 --> 0:58:26.640 Yeah, it is good, it is good, But it's more 0:58:26.720 --> 0:58:29.480 so about like the investigation and. 0:58:29.520 --> 0:58:32.160 How I should I should be watching that as an 0:58:32.240 --> 0:58:34.919 HBO Okay, I've got I've got an HBO deal starting soon, 0:58:34.960 --> 0:58:36.240 so I'll. 0:58:35.760 --> 0:58:37.479 Breaking news, breaking news, breaking news. 0:58:40.240 --> 0:58:41.960 I'm so crazy right now. 0:58:44.880 --> 0:58:55.040 But oh my god, a sample. Yeah, I'll be you know, 0:58:55.040 --> 0:58:58.200 I'll be turning some of these stories into documentaries and uh, 0:58:58.400 --> 0:59:01.240 you know, I'll be back on TV. And I think 0:59:01.280 --> 0:59:03.720 part of that is because you're right, there's there's different 0:59:03.720 --> 0:59:06.120 ways to get to people and they're all important. 0:59:06.400 --> 0:59:11.040 Is there something bubbling under that you're working on? Yes, yo, 0:59:11.160 --> 0:59:21.200 you said the excavation point at the end of the Okay, 0:59:21.400 --> 0:59:22.360 So when. 0:59:23.880 --> 0:59:29.560 You have a scoop that you know that you have, uh, 0:59:32.200 --> 0:59:33.840 who's your trusted circle? 0:59:33.960 --> 0:59:38.600 Who is your because I don't you know, and. 0:59:38.560 --> 0:59:42.000 I don't know the doggy dog world of journalism or whatnot, 0:59:42.200 --> 0:59:45.680 But when you know you have some ship that no 0:59:45.720 --> 0:59:46.800 one else has. 0:59:47.000 --> 0:59:49.600 So I write for The New Yorker, and I am 0:59:49.960 --> 0:59:53.440 really happy to say that after all of the challenges 0:59:53.440 --> 0:59:54.960 of the past year, you know, I landed in a 0:59:55.040 --> 0:59:57.280 place where there's just some of the best damn journalists 0:59:57.360 --> 1:00:00.680 on earth supporting me and David I'm Nick who runs 1:00:00.680 --> 1:00:02.720 The New Yorker, who you should totally have on. I 1:00:02.760 --> 1:00:05.800 want to hear him in a roll call. That guy 1:00:05.920 --> 1:00:09.160 is cool as hell and rescued the Weinstein story and 1:00:09.240 --> 1:00:12.440 stood by it. When it was under attack. And uh, 1:00:12.680 --> 1:00:15.680 you know, as I work on upcoming stories, I got 1:00:15.680 --> 1:00:18.640 a great circle of editors that are circle of trust 1:00:18.640 --> 1:00:20.800 there and and fact checkers as we get closer to 1:00:20.840 --> 1:00:23.960 the finish line on each story. And it's a it's 1:00:23.960 --> 1:00:26.560 a wonderful institution. What people should subscribe? 1:00:26.720 --> 1:00:29.000 I mean, can you keep it real? How real are 1:00:29.160 --> 1:00:29.560 the you. 1:00:29.520 --> 1:00:31.400 Know, I always keep it real, but how. 1:00:31.240 --> 1:00:35.240 Real are the threats? Like is it barbershop talk or 1:00:35.320 --> 1:00:37.880 is it some real. 1:00:38.320 --> 1:00:41.480 It's it's some it's some real shit unfortunately. But I mean, 1:00:41.600 --> 1:00:44.880 like you even you, I did, I did move out 1:00:44.880 --> 1:00:46.720 of my place So. 1:00:46.640 --> 1:00:48.680 When you're in a parking lot alone, is it like 1:00:48.920 --> 1:00:49.720 over the shoulder? 1:00:49.960 --> 1:00:51.080 Is it? Yeah? 1:00:51.160 --> 1:00:53.920 I mean it it it It comes and goes. Uh 1:00:54.040 --> 1:00:57.000 you know. I think there are periods where I'm working 1:00:57.040 --> 1:00:59.920 on a specific story where it gets very very adversary, 1:01:00.280 --> 1:01:04.240 where that is very much the vibe of like, okay, 1:01:04.320 --> 1:01:06.200 maybeing followed. What precautions do I need to take? 1:01:06.880 --> 1:01:09.640 Because that national inquiry that was a big deal. 1:01:09.720 --> 1:01:11.800 Like I mean, if Stormy's looking over her shoulder, yeah, 1:01:11.880 --> 1:01:14.160 definitely looking over yours when you say it is love child. 1:01:14.600 --> 1:01:16.200 And there was a story in the in the New 1:01:16.280 --> 1:01:19.320 York Times last night about some of the connections between 1:01:19.360 --> 1:01:22.160 those allegations of intimidation and you know, people that were 1:01:22.160 --> 1:01:25.400 getting hired and this is all stuff that will continue 1:01:25.440 --> 1:01:26.960 to come to light. But yeah, the answer is it's 1:01:27.000 --> 1:01:27.479 it's real. 1:01:27.680 --> 1:01:32.000 Well, I'm just saying that in the sixties, Uh, they 1:01:32.360 --> 1:01:39.360 handled it, yeah, a certain way. Uh, Whereas I feel 1:01:39.400 --> 1:01:42.800 as though, because there's cameras everywhere, it's hard to execute 1:01:43.840 --> 1:01:45.240 that sort of you know. 1:01:45.440 --> 1:01:46.400 I hope I got a call. 1:01:47.160 --> 1:01:48.880 I mean, I hope you're right that it's harder for 1:01:48.920 --> 1:01:52.919 people to you know, attack other people because of the surveillance. 1:01:53.360 --> 1:01:56.480 Well plus to say house of cars for real, like Ronan, 1:01:56.520 --> 1:01:58.400 can't anybody just I just can't see. 1:02:00.600 --> 1:02:03.040 It is it's I will say, you know, without talking 1:02:03.080 --> 1:02:05.960 about the specifics of stuff I've reported on I in 1:02:06.000 --> 1:02:09.320 general terms, I have been startled at how close it 1:02:09.440 --> 1:02:13.680 is to fiction and how you know, kind of cloak 1:02:13.720 --> 1:02:16.480 and dagger tactics that I didn't think existed in the 1:02:16.480 --> 1:02:19.320 real world really are part of the tool set deployed 1:02:19.360 --> 1:02:22.760 by powerful people when they're on a rampage trying to 1:02:22.800 --> 1:02:24.160 stop something from coming out. 1:02:24.200 --> 1:02:27.240 But almost the thing that I'm marvel at the most 1:02:27.320 --> 1:02:32.520 is that I don't think that this current administration is 1:02:32.920 --> 1:02:37.120 truly aware of the power of how technology works. Like 1:02:37.160 --> 1:02:39.960 I feel like there're so old school, seventies eighties, old school, 1:02:41.440 --> 1:02:44.360 you know, just keep it between us, not knowing that 1:02:45.680 --> 1:02:47.880 we're going to find out the information anyway. 1:02:48.200 --> 1:02:51.720 Like, I mean, it's this weird dichotomy, right because Trump 1:02:51.760 --> 1:02:54.040 is also like the king of Twitter and like late 1:02:54.120 --> 1:02:56.960 night tweets and early morning tweets and tweets with typos. 1:02:58.280 --> 1:03:00.640 It's just so obvious that he comes from the school 1:03:00.720 --> 1:03:04.920 of if you say something enough, they'll believe it, they'll 1:03:04.920 --> 1:03:05.400 believe it. 1:03:05.360 --> 1:03:05.920 Like I can. 1:03:06.160 --> 1:03:10.240 Yeah, I can tell you know, a whitewash when it's 1:03:10.480 --> 1:03:11.800 so obvious and transparent. 1:03:12.360 --> 1:03:15.320 Yeah that I guess. 1:03:15.360 --> 1:03:19.280 This leads me to my last question, which is do 1:03:19.320 --> 1:03:24.920 you have hope for twenty eighteen? And if you do, uh, 1:03:26.760 --> 1:03:30.000 what do you project will. 1:03:29.760 --> 1:03:32.840 Have I guess to the extent that I engage with 1:03:33.320 --> 1:03:37.800 electoral politics at all, it's just wanting to tell stories 1:03:37.840 --> 1:03:40.600 that arm people with as much useful and accurate information 1:03:40.640 --> 1:03:43.200 as possible, you know, I truly that's not a cop out. 1:03:43.280 --> 1:03:45.840 I just I don't think in those terms. I really 1:03:45.880 --> 1:03:48.440 just think in terms of what's the most important story 1:03:48.440 --> 1:03:51.000 I can go after? And I hope I think that 1:03:51.320 --> 1:03:55.400 telling the truth is good for society as a whole, 1:03:55.480 --> 1:04:00.240 and I hope that that is also helpful for the Electorate's. 1:03:59.280 --> 1:04:01.040 Funny on record week. 1:04:03.280 --> 1:04:05.200 It's not the world I'm in, you know, I'm not 1:04:05.280 --> 1:04:05.640 in in. 1:04:05.600 --> 1:04:08.720 The world. 1:04:10.880 --> 1:04:11.360 Fair enough. 1:04:11.840 --> 1:04:13.920 But what's funny is you mentioned Malon Aubright And I 1:04:13.960 --> 1:04:15.640 was also thinking about what do you think about Malon 1:04:15.680 --> 1:04:18.200 Abright and people like James Comy like writing these books. 1:04:18.240 --> 1:04:20.080 I mean, in the season of Born Peace, come your 1:04:20.080 --> 1:04:20.720 book coming out of. 1:04:21.320 --> 1:04:25.120 Alright, she was wonderfully candid, you know, and has a 1:04:25.120 --> 1:04:30.360 great uh history of public service and is obviously very frank, 1:04:30.440 --> 1:04:33.640 both in War on Peace and her own book, Fascism 1:04:33.760 --> 1:04:37.200 A Warning. It's subtitled uh. And you know she's also 1:04:37.360 --> 1:04:39.760 she's a you know, uh, I don't say this in 1:04:39.800 --> 1:04:42.720 a disparaging way, but a partisan, so she can talk 1:04:42.800 --> 1:04:46.320 more freely about so then James Comy, well, James Comy, 1:04:46.360 --> 1:04:48.560 it's much more I mean, you know, obviously he's like 1:04:48.640 --> 1:04:51.800 dodging and weaving bullets. And it's a whole careful process. 1:04:51.840 --> 1:04:56.240 Anytime you have a government agency reviewing your book, and yeah, 1:04:56.280 --> 1:04:57.840 I think it was almost inevitable that it was going 1:04:57.880 --> 1:04:59.200 to be a minefield for him to do a press 1:04:59.240 --> 1:05:00.120 store for that book. 1:05:00.120 --> 1:05:00.680 The wrong time. 1:05:01.320 --> 1:05:03.240 I don't know. I don't know. It's not for me 1:05:03.280 --> 1:05:05.240 to say. I honestly, I also haven't read the book, 1:05:05.360 --> 1:05:07.200 so I wouldn't want to say it's the wrong time 1:05:07.200 --> 1:05:08.560 for it to come out. Maybe it's the right time. 1:05:08.640 --> 1:05:13.880 I don't know. But you know, I think he's definitely 1:05:13.960 --> 1:05:17.680 trying to navigate those potholes. Maybe oh you wow, you 1:05:17.760 --> 1:05:20.720 are super disapproving. No, no, no, she's got this look on 1:05:20.760 --> 1:05:21.320 her face like. 1:05:21.640 --> 1:05:23.600 No, no, I'm happy that he came out. 1:05:23.640 --> 1:05:25.400 But again, he kind of goes back to what Amir 1:05:25.440 --> 1:05:27.400 said at the end of the day, like, no matter 1:05:27.440 --> 1:05:31.320 who comes out, there's a certain population, a certain people. 1:05:31.080 --> 1:05:32.720 That they're going to pick the fact. 1:05:32.720 --> 1:05:33.480 They don't see it. 1:05:33.560 --> 1:05:35.320 They ye something wrong with him. 1:05:35.400 --> 1:05:38.760 I believe whoever is wearing the tie says it's true. 1:05:38.560 --> 1:05:40.160 Because yeah, I was all hyped about the book, but 1:05:40.160 --> 1:05:41.760 then I realized, I'm like, I'm hyped with the same 1:05:41.800 --> 1:05:42.520 people again. 1:05:42.720 --> 1:05:44.640 Well, this is this is one of the problems that 1:05:44.680 --> 1:05:46.200 we have to deal with in terms of the media 1:05:46.280 --> 1:05:53.600 landscape where the President was clearly able to exploit, you know, 1:05:53.680 --> 1:05:56.600 both through these catch and kill operations via the Inquirer 1:05:56.640 --> 1:06:01.080 and also the general co opting of a tabloid media 1:06:01.160 --> 1:06:04.800 outlet that runs constant headlines that are you know, pro 1:06:04.840 --> 1:06:08.360 Trump and anti Hillary Clinton. Well, because it interfaces with 1:06:08.400 --> 1:06:10.600 that audience that you're talking about, that's not necessarily part 1:06:10.600 --> 1:06:13.120 of the conversations you're in, but they are seeing those 1:06:13.760 --> 1:06:16.520 magazine covers on the checkout line. So there's an interesting 1:06:16.560 --> 1:06:18.360 you know, I'm not a media reporter, but there's an 1:06:18.400 --> 1:06:23.680 interesting media narrative here, which is this split nation of 1:06:23.760 --> 1:06:27.280 we're all in our own partisan bubbles. We go on 1:06:27.320 --> 1:06:31.200 Facebook and Twitter and it's algorithmically curated, so you only 1:06:31.240 --> 1:06:34.360 see views you agree with, and then right, and then 1:06:34.400 --> 1:06:36.640 for the people who don't watch the news, you know, 1:06:36.680 --> 1:06:40.080 there's this whole other parallel reality of National Inquirer covers 1:06:40.120 --> 1:06:42.880 and the checkout line at the supermarket, and none of 1:06:42.880 --> 1:06:45.200 these groups are talking to each other. And that's a 1:06:45.240 --> 1:06:47.840 real problem. That's you know, bigger than anything I am 1:06:48.040 --> 1:06:49.480 able to sign it right now, that's. 1:06:49.360 --> 1:06:52.200 Weird to me that asteroid Inquirer is still a thing. 1:06:53.120 --> 1:06:56.320 Yes, I mean it's not in terms of the media conversation, 1:06:56.400 --> 1:07:01.520 but it is in terms of grocer's denominator. 1:07:01.680 --> 1:07:04.400 Like I'm not saying I've been to the grocery store 1:07:04.400 --> 1:07:07.479 a few times, but they. 1:07:07.360 --> 1:07:08.720 Don't have it that whole food. 1:07:16.000 --> 1:07:18.000 The people that whole foods are are the people in 1:07:18.040 --> 1:07:21.080 your conversation. They're not the people who need convincing, right. 1:07:20.920 --> 1:07:22.200 That's again, that's what I'm saying. 1:07:23.400 --> 1:07:24.280 Some of the people are. 1:07:24.360 --> 1:07:27.120 I don't watch the news, like I work with a 1:07:27.160 --> 1:07:30.040 lot of I don't know. I think it's I think 1:07:30.040 --> 1:07:32.600 it's almost dangerous on the whole food side of things, 1:07:32.640 --> 1:07:36.640 because again I know, and I work with a lot 1:07:36.680 --> 1:07:42.959 of people who you know, they can afford to turn 1:07:43.040 --> 1:07:46.360 the other way. Look, you know, and. 1:07:46.320 --> 1:07:47.360 That disappoints me. 1:07:47.800 --> 1:07:49.360 That hurts me more. 1:07:52.440 --> 1:07:55.480 I hope everyone with the power to raise their voice 1:07:55.840 --> 1:07:59.560 is doing so in an informed way. That's all. This 1:07:59.640 --> 1:08:01.800 is the apathy that we've been hitting on again and 1:08:01.840 --> 1:08:05.439 again is a really dangerous and disappointing thing. People got 1:08:05.440 --> 1:08:06.000 a care. 1:08:06.080 --> 1:08:07.840 Yeah, and you made us not to go back to 1:08:07.920 --> 1:08:08.200 the book. 1:08:08.240 --> 1:08:10.480 But Warren Peace made us care about the diplomacy because again, 1:08:10.520 --> 1:08:11.760 I wasn't even thinking about you. 1:08:12.000 --> 1:08:13.840 I hope. So I think the brave men and women 1:08:14.000 --> 1:08:16.760 doing this work deserve that. 1:08:17.120 --> 1:08:19.639 Thanks guys, well, thank you. I appreciate you for coming. 1:08:19.800 --> 1:08:20.320 See you guys. 1:08:21.760 --> 1:08:22.960 Can we do do the whole? 1:08:23.000 --> 1:08:24.800 The whole title is War on Piece, the end of 1:08:24.800 --> 1:08:27.520 the plomacy and the decline of the American influence. 1:08:27.840 --> 1:08:32.920 O Wow, heavy words, Ladies and gentlemen, Ladies and gentlemen, 1:08:33.200 --> 1:08:37.479 or on behalf of Sugar Steve Zarah's Almond. 1:08:42.840 --> 1:08:47.280 Okay, Bill, don't say Boss Bill too, because he thinks 1:08:48.240 --> 1:08:49.559 he always say we forgive it. 1:08:49.400 --> 1:08:51.160 And Boss Bill, of course we get. 1:08:51.160 --> 1:08:53.559 We do this on this collection of Green Tea kit 1:08:53.680 --> 1:08:55.679 cats Hell the worst. 1:08:56.479 --> 1:08:59.719 Sorry that was a bad idea. Anyway. This is Quest Love. 1:09:00.240 --> 1:09:03.840 You were listening to Quest Love Supreme and be safe everybody, 1:09:04.000 --> 1:09:05.280 Thank you, Seeal the next one. 1:09:05.320 --> 1:09:19.200 While Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio, this 1:09:19.280 --> 1:09:20.360 classic episode was. 1:09:20.320 --> 1:09:22.440 Produced by the team at Pandora. 1:09:25.840 --> 1:09:30.240 For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 1:09:30.680 --> 1:09:32.760 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.