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Speaker 1: Of Course, Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This

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Speaker 1: classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora.

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Speaker 2: What's Up Something Bill ProQuest Love Supreme on this week's classic,

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Speaker 2: which revisited May thirty. In twenty eighteen interview with journalists

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Speaker 2: and author Ronan Pharaoh, he dropped out and talking about

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Speaker 2: his first book, War on Piece. The chat left to

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Speaker 2: talking about family most of and Roman's Pursuit of the Truth.

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Speaker 2: Episode eighty six.

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Speaker 3: Enjoyed Supremo Son Son Supremo roll call, Supremo Sun, Supremo

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Speaker 3: roll call, Suprema Sun Supremo roll call Suprema Sun sub

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Speaker 3: Supremo roll call.

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Speaker 4: I am for real, Yeah, I am so down.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Ronan Pharaoh, expose these class.

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Speaker 3: Supreme So Sun Supremo, roll call, breama something something, Supremo role.

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Speaker 6: My name is Fante. Yeah, I can't play the word lizzer.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: I never had a bar MINSI. Yeah, congrats on that

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Speaker 6: pool Litzer.

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Speaker 3: Suprema Suprema roll called Suprema Son, Suprema roll call.

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Speaker 4: My name is Sugar. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: When I heard Pharaoh, yeah, I was like, oh Eve, yeah,

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Speaker 2: not again.

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Speaker 3: Suprema role called Suprema Son So Suprema.

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Speaker 4: Roll called Bill.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and life is hard Yeah when you live inside. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: House of Cards.

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Speaker 3: Suprema Son, Suprema roll called Suprema Son, Suprema.

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Speaker 8: Roll em Yeah, and Pharaoh everything he says, yeah, yeah

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Speaker 8: I follow, Yeah me too, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Supp.

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Speaker 9: Roll, I'm rolling row, I'm here to stay.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. I can't free style, but I got a yeah roll.

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Speaker 4: He started the crooning. That was amazing.

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Speaker 9: Guys ring definitely need another take, but there's promising stuff there.

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Speaker 4: You are a one I love.

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Speaker 6: I was outside and I saw the I had a

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Speaker 6: new bars. I saw the word lips outside.

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Speaker 9: I was like, like like Pulitzer soul.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, if you were all the revelation comes after

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Speaker 4: roll call, before call.

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Speaker 10: There is nothing we can think of that you know

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Speaker 10: that rhymes with the word that we intended you.

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Speaker 9: Do that every time that's exhausted.

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Speaker 4: What what episode is this? Like like.

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Speaker 9: Congrats on your eighty something? The episode that means.

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Speaker 10: Each each freaking roll call has been somewhat customized, all

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Speaker 10: mind saved.

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Speaker 4: You're a lie?

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Speaker 11: Oh yours?

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Speaker 4: Okay?

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Speaker 2: Like off topic because I like to be as topic

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Speaker 2: as positive.

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Speaker 10: This week because this well, this is the one. Yours

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Speaker 10: is always political.

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Speaker 4: No, matter what. Like even if we have like like.

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Speaker 10: You know, the food episode, you'll talk about what happened

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Speaker 10: in the news that week, So you're like our.

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Speaker 4: Political conscious but not really.

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Speaker 2: I was going to try to do a non political

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Speaker 2: one this week because it's political to fuck with you all.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I was like, you better stick to way

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Speaker 2: special guests. There is a today say the word high.

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Speaker 9: She's very My goal is to get her to open up.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 10: We are literally yeah we in place of bost Bill

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Speaker 10: uh Ziah, one of my seven managers is here.

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Speaker 11: Maybe we can get into it later because.

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Speaker 10: It's not about me our special guests, you know, I

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Speaker 10: will say probably one of the one of the one

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Speaker 10: of the hardest things to to do, uh, I think

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Speaker 10: in terms of David and Goliath is taking a stand

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Speaker 10: and calling people out, sticking to the truth, especially when

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Speaker 10: terms like fake news gets thrown around a lot, and

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Speaker 10: you know, there are a certain few that still don't

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Speaker 10: know who to believe. You know, I guess anyway, this

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Speaker 10: this man has in my opinion, uh, he's leading the

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Speaker 10: charge and he's a mighty David to the world's good life.

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Speaker 4: His new book just got released, War and Peace. Thank you.

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Speaker 4: I want to talk about.

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Speaker 9: That hell out of that, guys, welcome. Yeah, that how cool.

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Speaker 10: I saw your speech last night. That was really incredible.

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Speaker 10: How you picked up your mom.

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Speaker 4: For it, you know.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, you know, look I brought with me actually, uh,

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Speaker 9: one of the first women who went on the record

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Speaker 9: in these stories I wrote about Harvey Weinstein. And you

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Speaker 9: know there's a reason for that. I really I was

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Speaker 9: there because of her, and I feel like we have

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Speaker 9: all benefited so much from the example of how brave

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Speaker 9: these women were. And you're right, my mom was there too,

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Speaker 9: and she is a super brave woman who has gotten

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Speaker 9: a lot of flak for standing up for her daughter

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Speaker 9: and for women's rights, and I owe a lot to her.

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Speaker 10: I gotta say, even like news news of you writing

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Speaker 10: the New Yorker piece and your work before. Of course,

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Speaker 10: we at one point worked in the same building at

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Speaker 10: thirty Rock, what I call thirty Rock University.

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Speaker 4: I'll just say that you graduated.

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Speaker 9: You kicked out, you know. Well you're talking about that later, yeah,

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Speaker 9: you know, but you were. You definitely had a cooler

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Speaker 9: layer in thirty Rock than I did.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, but you guys, really know it all is man,

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Speaker 10: and you know, I was always a big fan of

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Speaker 10: the third floor, all all the cats that ever.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, there's some great reporters there.

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Speaker 10: But I'll say that, even though I believe maybe the

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Speaker 10: first time I met you, I recalled, did you guys

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Speaker 10: ever attend a show with Most?

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Speaker 4: I know at the time when he was doing be

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Speaker 4: kind Rewind?

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Speaker 9: Yeah, wow, that is a piece piece of obscure IMDb trivia.

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Speaker 9: My mom co starred with Most in this Michelle Gontrey movie,

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Speaker 9: right yeah, and she loved Most. She was like, this

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Speaker 9: guy is the salt of the earth. She thought he

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Speaker 9: was so sweet, he was so supportive.

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Speaker 10: One point that you guys, that was going to be

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Speaker 10: like the the adoption thing, like Most.

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Speaker 9: Was just going to be like the latest addition to

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Speaker 9: the Pharaoh family.

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Speaker 10: Exactly would that I saw, even I don't know if

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Speaker 10: it's you or your siblings at one of his shows

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Speaker 10: that I happen to be.

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Speaker 9: At, totally possible. I mean I'm a big fan of his.

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Speaker 10: Okay, So but I'll say that my my true introduction

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Speaker 10: introduction to you was your your Twitter feet, which was

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Speaker 10: super fearless. At first, I didn't I didn't even know

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Speaker 10: you were journalists. I just thought, yo, your singers are.

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Speaker 9: I'm glad you liked them. They have gotten me in trouble.

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Speaker 4: I was going to say, how how did your Father's Day?

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Speaker 10: I don't know if this is the White Elephant or

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Speaker 10: room whatever, but your Father's Day tweet was rather interesting.

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Speaker 9: I had some spicy tweets in my day.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know, how how did you deal with that?

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Speaker 10: Because usually I get a lot of clot back from

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Speaker 10: you know, yeah inner circle.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you know, but you just always has that.

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Speaker 10: Always been you, like, I'm going to call it out

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Speaker 10: if I see bullshit, I'm gonna call it out.

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Speaker 9: For sure, for sure. I think when you're calling out

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Speaker 9: bullshit through careful investigative reporting, you do have to then

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Speaker 9: be careful about like being glib on social media. So

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Speaker 9: it's a delicate balance. You know, it depends on the topic.

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Speaker 4: So you can't be yeah, you're you're not.

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Speaker 9: I think, you know, while I'm in the middle of

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Speaker 9: such sensitive stuff and I'm so under fire from some

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Speaker 9: pretty nasty people that I've exposed, you know, I still

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Speaker 9: get a little in edgewise.

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Speaker 11: And at last, you know, a few I want to

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Speaker 11: say weeks.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, during those period.

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Speaker 8: Time, these things, it's like, Okay, your Twitter might go

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Speaker 8: more PG.

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Speaker 9: Now it's a little more PG. Yeah. I also think,

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Speaker 9: you know, Twitter has changed, like our cultural moment has changed.

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Speaker 9: There was a period where like I'd go on with

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Speaker 9: you know, Jimmy, and he'd like read his favorite tweets

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Speaker 9: of mine. And I don't think we do that anymore.

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Speaker 9: Like the novelty of Twitter wore off, and it's now

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Speaker 9: more for me anyway, like a rolodex of fellow reporters,

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Speaker 9: rather than like a joke medium.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, it's more like it's like the morning papers.

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Speaker 6: Now it's like the morning papers.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, right, it's more of just a news aggregator

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Speaker 9: for me.

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Speaker 4: Hashtag is a thread, you know it, Threa.

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Speaker 11: Nothing's funny anymore?

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Speaker 9: Yeah, nothing, but well you guys are still funny. That works.

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Speaker 10: So just as a young person were when did you

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Speaker 10: realize that this is bullshit and I have to stand

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Speaker 10: up for something or were you Were you the tattletale

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Speaker 10: of your siblings?

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Speaker 9: Like what, I was not a snitch on her I

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Speaker 9: because it's.

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Speaker 10: Weird just from where I came from, Like I was

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Speaker 10: raised Okay, one time I used to be the cousin

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Speaker 10: that TOLDE job right, But I was raised like you.

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Speaker 10: My uncle would punish the guilty party and then punish

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Speaker 10: the snitcher.

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Speaker 4: Everybody it's like, what did I do? It's like you're

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Speaker 4: supposed to stick together, which it's like, that's that's kind

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Speaker 4: of weird.

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Speaker 10: We at a young age, I'll say that at least culturally,

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Speaker 10: black people were slow to call things out, and then

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Speaker 10: maybe by their teens, then it's like to tell it

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Speaker 10: like it is thing because then you just realized that

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Speaker 10: this is bullshit and I gotta stand up. So I mean,

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Speaker 10: at what point where did you feel like on my

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Speaker 10: own two I gotta.

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Speaker 9: I was always raised with a really strong spirit of

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Speaker 9: public service and justice, and I think a lot of

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Speaker 9: that flows from my mom being like a recovering Catholic

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Speaker 9: schoolgirl who you know is still really was inculcated with

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Speaker 9: that kind of save the world attitude and and I think,

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Speaker 9: you know, speaking the truth and cutting through bullshit, even

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Speaker 9: when it means putting a lot on the line is

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Speaker 9: a big part of that. But what's interesting when you

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Speaker 9: talk about snitching is, you know, my day job as

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Speaker 9: an investigative reporter requires both a lot of telling of

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Speaker 9: hard truths and also a lot of keeping of secrets,

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Speaker 9: right because you're dealing with all of these anonymous resources. Yeah,

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Speaker 9: and you know, even when people go on the record,

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Speaker 9: you know, you have to be very careful about parsing

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Speaker 9: out the parts they want to say the parts they

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Speaker 9: don't want to say. And one of the most important

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Speaker 9: things I do is respecting people's privacy.

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Speaker 10: Well, let me make clear snitching is at least inculturally

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Speaker 10: for us. Snitching is like when you're part of an

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Speaker 10: operation and then yeah, Evan, you rat everyone else out.

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Speaker 4: No, be cool, because boss bills not here. And I

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Speaker 4: want you guys to choose this podcast.

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Speaker 10: Does this take some calls and you know, to on

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Speaker 10: the micro yes, sound effects, all this stuff. But so

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Speaker 10: I would not necessarily say, I mean, keeping a secret

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Speaker 10: is necessary in your line of business.

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Speaker 4: And I feel that's not.

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Speaker 11: You walking back.

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Speaker 4: No, I never. I mean, like.

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Speaker 11: Interesting point.

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Speaker 9: That's why I was super interesting.

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Speaker 8: I wanted you to go back to what you said

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Speaker 8: about him and your brothers and sisters, because when you

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Speaker 8: came in here, you were already talking about your brothers

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Speaker 8: and sisters.

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Speaker 11: How many do.

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Speaker 9: You have and were one of fourteen? Okay, it's a lot.

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Speaker 4: And your last name is not Johnson.

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Speaker 9: And where are you in this game of the fourteen,

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Speaker 9: there are four younger than me. Ten of my siblings

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Speaker 9: are adopted, and most of them have, uh, you know,

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Speaker 9: really traumatic difficult backgrounds of various kinds. You know, adopted

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Speaker 9: from terrible situations of poverty and abuse. You know, many

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Speaker 9: of them adopted older at a point where basically they

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Speaker 9: would not have found a home otherwise. And you know,

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Speaker 9: those are the people I love most and I grew

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Speaker 9: up with, and it really gave me this incredible sense

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Speaker 9: of perspective. It's hard to like sop into your soup

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Speaker 9: about anything when you have so many of the world's

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Speaker 9: challenges read at your doorstep.

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Speaker 10: So from the gate being one of fourteen, like you're

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Speaker 10: automatically taught community service and that sort of. I mean,

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Speaker 10: it wasn't a silver spoon situation. Then you decided, because

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Speaker 10: there's some people that like they grow up privileged, rich,

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Speaker 10: and then they realized, like, yo, this is we'll sit

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Speaker 10: I got.

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Speaker 9: And you know, I'd never like complain of hardship in

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Speaker 9: that respect, because lord knows, I've reported on and seen

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Speaker 9: plenty of real hardship and I didn't have that. But

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Speaker 9: you know, I was raised by a single mom who

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Speaker 9: was at that point, you know, not working all the time,

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Speaker 9: and it was very clear that we all had to

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Speaker 9: strike out and make a living as early as possible.

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Speaker 9: And you know, not everyone could go to private school.

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Speaker 9: It was it was merit based, and you know, we

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Speaker 9: were really fortunate. I was supported through my whole childhood,

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Speaker 9: but it wasn't opulent. And you know, the flip side

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Speaker 9: was that there were all these very real traumas and

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Speaker 9: often really just physical challenges that I saw my siblings

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Speaker 9: go through, So I was I was exposed to that

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Speaker 9: from an early age.

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Speaker 8: You said something interesting, you said, going to private school

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Speaker 8: was merit base.

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Speaker 9: Well, you know, a lot of my siblings had the

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Speaker 9: benefit of like wonderful public schools in our in our

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Speaker 9: towns that we grew up in. In Connecticut, we moved

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Speaker 9: around a little bit. Was New York, Connecticut.

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Speaker 4: Born in New York.

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Speaker 9: I was born in New York, and then I spent

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Speaker 9: my teens in Connecticut. And it was kind of I

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Speaker 9: think it was an individual decision for each person, like, Okay,

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Speaker 9: what are they going to benefit from most? You know,

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Speaker 9: how good is the local school? Uh, you know what

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Speaker 9: makes sense? Are they really going to get a lot

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Speaker 9: out of some kind of a specialized program, you know,

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Speaker 9: whether they either you know, need more attentive education because

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Speaker 9: they've got special needs, or because they're excelling in a

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Speaker 9: particular way and that needs to be tended to. I'm

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Speaker 9: not allowed to work.

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Speaker 11: For your mom like that unbelievable work.

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Speaker 9: She was an incredible mom, and I saw her shoulder

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Speaker 9: this huge burden all by herself. Did you get to

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Speaker 9: do any of you guys have kids?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I got the two boys seventeen and twelve.

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Speaker 9: So you know, what a handful. It's a lot. It's

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Speaker 9: a lot, and I can't imagine doing that all alone,

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Speaker 9: you know, while making a living with so many kids.

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Speaker 9: It's a lot to bite up. I definitely grew up

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Speaker 9: knowing that I didn't want to adopt ten kids, but

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Speaker 9: I also grew up really admiring the hell out of it.

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Speaker 4: Is it? Yeah? How is it?

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Speaker 10: Fighting for your own space and your own voice and

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Speaker 10: your I would assume that you have to be diplomatic,

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Speaker 10: and you know, the biggest vote wins and we get

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Speaker 10: to watch this.

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Speaker 9: Channel and you know, yeah, a lot of early negotiating skills.

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Speaker 9: I hadn't thought of it in that way, but that's

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Speaker 9: probably true. I mean a lot of fighting over food.

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Speaker 9: You know, we were like we were a dark meat

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Speaker 9: family when it came to chicken, and the darkness was

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Speaker 9: always gone, you know, never enough drumsticks to go around.

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Speaker 4: Yo, son, your last name is John.

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Speaker 11: No, we just had a whole conversation about good hair

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Speaker 11: and whatnot.

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Speaker 8: And it's funny because that that was my next question

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Speaker 8: to you, like breaking down the diversity of your brothers

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Speaker 8: and sisters, because that provides such a different understanding for

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Speaker 8: you, you know, especially.

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Speaker 9: As a totally different understanding. I mean, look, I'm still

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Speaker 9: a white guy, and I would not claim to understand

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Speaker 9: what it's like to grow up as a black woman

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Speaker 9: in our society. But I can claim to understand what

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Speaker 9: it's like to grow up, you know, with a bedroom

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Speaker 9: next to the bedroom of a of a black young woman.

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Speaker 9: And uh, that's a lot, that's a whole. I mean,

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Speaker 9: I want to be careful because I was telling you before,

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Speaker 9: like I have you know, the black siblings. Yeah, I

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Speaker 9: have black somebs. I have Asian siblings. We were we

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Speaker 9: were real like United Colors of Beneton. I know, you

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Speaker 9: know I have uh you know, there are black women

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Speaker 9: in my life who are very disapproving of the Chris

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Speaker 9: Rock documentary that you just mentioned.

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Speaker 8: The good hair, Yes we're talking, was going to put

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Speaker 8: you in Yeah, an interesting conversation.

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Speaker 9: It is an interesting conversation that people have about that.

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Speaker 9: And it's not really for me to say, you know,

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Speaker 9: how sensitive he was or not, because I'm not in

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Speaker 9: that demographic. But but uh, certainly I got a taste

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Speaker 9: of the hair traumas of honestly the childhood of just

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Speaker 9: about any girl of any color, because as I was

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Speaker 9: telling you earlier, my Asian siblings were like getting perms

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Speaker 9: and wanting curly hair, and you know, my black sister

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Speaker 9: was like, you know, going through the whole rigamarole of

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Speaker 9: like strainers, relaxers and you know, going out in the rain,

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Speaker 9: and it's all ruined. So God bless anyone who finds

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Speaker 9: equilibrium on their hair, whatever color that may be.

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Speaker 4: You you had a problem with good hair.

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Speaker 11: No, I thought, not me, she was. But I saw

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Speaker 11: the point of it.

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Speaker 8: I saw the point in the problem because I was saying,

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Speaker 8: at the end of the day, Chris Rock is a man,

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Speaker 8: and so it was from a perspective a man, and

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Speaker 8: a lot of things were left out.

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Speaker 10: That's what we're talking about Oh okay, now I watch again,

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Speaker 10: see I.

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Speaker 7: Mean white people, I know loved that documentary cause I

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Speaker 7: feel I'm so full of insight now yeah, and I

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Speaker 7: was kind of surprised then, you know, you talked to

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Speaker 7: black women about it, and it's a little more split

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Speaker 7: down the middle, where like you found things to respect

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Speaker 7: in it.

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Speaker 9: And I mean I certainly enjoyed it, and I just

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Speaker 9: that it.

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Speaker 11: Was done and his intentions and doing it when it

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Speaker 11: came to that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did not

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Speaker 11: know that.

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Speaker 10: Okay, where did you go to high school? Did you

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Speaker 10: all go to the same high school? Well, you're all

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Speaker 10: not the same.

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Speaker 9: Age, so yeah, I mean there's a huge age span.

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Speaker 9: I actually did not go to high school.

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Speaker 11: But you went to college and like sixteen years eleven.

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Speaker 9: Oh wait, you deal with it.

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Speaker 4: As you graduated it like you graduated.

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Speaker 9: I was at fifteen, right, Yeah, whoa time out? This

365
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:42,040
Speaker 9: about me? I'm here.

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Speaker 10: I did not know this about you? And wait, time out?

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Speaker 10: Explain your schooling.

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Speaker 4: I we missed that. We missed the Ron Ferro plan.

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Speaker 9: Look, I don't know if it's a good idea, but

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Speaker 9: it's what happened. I I was super nerdy and was

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Speaker 9: bored in school, and I was lucky enough to uh

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Speaker 9: get like a you know, brochure for this JOHNS. Hopkins

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Speaker 9: program where you can take college courses as a kid.

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Speaker 11: John Hopkins like nothing.

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Speaker 9: They have this thing. It's so embarrassed. It's called the

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Speaker 9: Center for Talented Youth. I'm so sorry, guys. Yeah. So anyway,

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Speaker 9: I and these fellow nerds would get together and like

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Speaker 9: take college courses in the summers. And this would have

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Speaker 9: been like, you know, from age nine or ten on. So,

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Speaker 9: so the the way you get into that summer camp

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Speaker 9: is you take the SAT. And so I took the

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Speaker 9: SAT and I got a score where people were like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 9: you should just go to college. So I just I did.

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Speaker 4: Wow. And this is at nine years old.

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Speaker 9: So the SAT, you know, I took it a couple

386
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Speaker 9: of times in that period. You had to retake it

387
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Speaker 9: to get it. This is more detail than needed, but anyway,

388
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Speaker 9: I got a like a baller s a T score

389
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Speaker 9: kind of.

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Speaker 4: I did.

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Speaker 9: I got a perfect. No one is ever going to

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Speaker 9: want to be my friend, I don't. No, no, no, okay,

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Speaker 9: this you will be my only friends.

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Speaker 4: No, but peep it, peep it, all right, So.

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Speaker 10: Maybe I don't know if I tell the story of

396
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 10: my birth doctor or not, but like he was trying

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Speaker 10: to get my parents to think, you know, I was

398
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Speaker 10: born in the early seventies and there was like a

399
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,720
Speaker 10: new way of thinking and all that stuff, and he

400
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,280
Speaker 10: was trying to get my parents to kind of go

401
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,359
Speaker 10: out of their their uh boundary comfort zone when it

402
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:44,400
Speaker 10: came to raising me. Now they geared more towards entertainment

403
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,040
Speaker 10: and whatnot. So he told them like, you know, when

404
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:49,680
Speaker 10: he wants to write on the walls, let him write

405
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Speaker 10: on the walls, let.

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Speaker 4: Him anything in a black and even in the plastic covert.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, let him jump on the good sofa and yeah, right,

408
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Speaker 6: all by leader all this stuff.

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Speaker 10: But that's how became a drummer. After a while, it

410
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 10: was like, Okay, he's destroying too much furniture, what do

411
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Speaker 10: we do, Get him a drum set. And then that's

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Speaker 10: like around two. But he definitely said, like make sure

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Speaker 10: before the age of five you let him just you know,

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Speaker 10: he's going to be curious about a lot of things, like,

415
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Speaker 10: of course, if it's a fork to the socket stopped, Yeah,

416
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 10: but let him draw on the walls, let him play

417
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Speaker 10: in his food.

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Speaker 9: So would you raise any kids you have that way?

419
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Speaker 9: Hell no, you don't want to lose those couches.

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Speaker 4: But you see, I feel.

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Speaker 10: Because of I've seen the result, and I have cousins

422
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Speaker 10: that were or under a strict like this restrictive lifestyle,

423
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Speaker 10: and I've seen the results of being too restrictive what

424
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 10: that does once they're teenagers and you rebellicans. Like TV

425
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,879
Speaker 10: was taken away from me in my formative years, but

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Speaker 10: as a result as an adult, like, I'm totally addicted

427
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Speaker 10: to CV, you know what I mean.

428
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Speaker 9: So it's sort of I actually had the same evolution

429
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Speaker 9: on video games where we were a new video game

430
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 9: household and then I became like a real nerdy gamer

431
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Speaker 9: as a result.

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Speaker 4: What do you gang? What's what's your jointe?

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Speaker 9: Oh man, I've got four I'm a PS four guy

434
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Speaker 9: Paul's college. I'm sure, yeah, but kind of, you know,

435
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Speaker 9: I was so I was so subversive that, you know,

436
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,159
Speaker 9: I was the kind of kid where when I was

437
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Speaker 9: told you can't get a Nintendo, I was like, here

438
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 9: are all my arguments on why this is an important

439
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,920
Speaker 9: art form and writers of my generation are going to

440
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 9: be going into video games and telling important horizon expanding stories. Yeah,

441
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 9: but also there was something about and then I would like,

442
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Speaker 9: you know, rig up emulators on my computer to get

443
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,399
Speaker 9: the Super Nintendo games and the sixty four games, like

444
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 9: you know, just terribly like hacked together versions I'd download,

445
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 9: but so I could play them. I'm not at getting

446
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 9: piracy and emulation here. I'm just saying it was.

447
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 4: You just built your own videota. So what's so?

448
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, I have a PS four. I'm I'm a I

449
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,199
Speaker 9: grew up on partly as a consequence of that ban

450
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 9: on consoles, computer games which were allowed, which are a

451
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 9: little more cerebral, like do you remember like Missed from

452
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 9: the Night, Missed as My Jam? And there's actually now that,

453
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 9: similar to some of the transitions in the music industry,

454
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 9: there's much more of an indie scene in gaming right

455
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 9: now because you publish declined inside for four. Inside is

456
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 9: a beautiful working art.

457
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 4: That's crazy.

458
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 9: It's like Scandinavian game I think, right, maybe Danish and

459
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 9: uh it's like black and white. Yeah, we got to

460
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 9: go deeper on this. We're losing the rest of them.

461
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 9: This is a side of him that I've exposed.

462
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 4: Yeah. No, we were very much a rabbit hole show.

463
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 9: Yeah, so I love the kind of the lineage of

464
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,479
Speaker 9: those mist adventure games and other kind of artistic games

465
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 9: that are a little mysterious and make you think. And

466
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 9: Flower Love Flower Love Journey, that's ny Journey's great. Yeah,

467
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 9: there's a game from PS four called Soma, which you

468
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 9: should one hundred percent play, like best writing, best story seen.

469
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 4: These choose your venture games.

470
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 6: Nah, Like Inside is is just a game where you're

471
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 6: a kid and it just drops you in this world

472
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,199
Speaker 6: and you just it's a side scroller game, so like

473
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 6: you die, so yeah, it's like Mario and you can

474
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 6: just die in so many different ways. And it's these

475
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 6: puzzles you have to figure out and.

476
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,479
Speaker 9: But it's it's a very evocative, beautiful backdrop of like

477
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 9: a kind of an Orwellian like repressive society. So it's

478
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 9: much more about like the experience than the puzzle.

479
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 4: Natural.

480
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 6: Yeah, and then Flower is like if pm don designed

481
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 6: a game. Flower is like you where you are a

482
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 6: pedal of a flower. It's amazing, how dude. It's you're

483
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 6: a pedal of a flower and you play as the wind,

484
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 6: so you have to direct the pedal to go through

485
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 6: this garden to pick up more flowers and they the music.

486
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 4: I want to. I don't think.

487
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 6: Yo, I didn't, but my homies, it's a beautiful game.

488
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 4: And like on Weed, it's even better.

489
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 9: I love to hear this gentle soul. You love this

490
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 9: gentle stone.

491
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 4: But I play too, though, so I like.

492
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 6: And Last of Us. That's like a screenplay for sure.

493
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 9: I hear the new God.

494
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 4: I got it. I purposely. I haven't downloaded.

495
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 6: I haven't started yet because I got work to do,

496
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 6: and I know once I started.

497
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 4: First of all, hats off for Afro picks. Off to

498
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 4: you for your for your your your New York piece.

499
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 9: Thank you what.

500
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 4: I mean, the what gave you.

501
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 10: The nerve or the gall or the audacity to even say,

502
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 10: all right, I'm gonna I'm gonna go after that, because

503
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 10: I would have figured that every editor or every boss

504
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 10: of yours would have tried to shut you down.

505
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 4: Yeah.

506
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 10: Maybe the guilt of the Democratic yeah, or the guilt

507
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 10: of the Democratic Party, you know, being as he was

508
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,640
Speaker 10: one of the biggest supporters or whatever like that could have.

509
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 9: Just like a lot of powerful forces trying to shut

510
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 9: it down.

511
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 4: Yeah.

512
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 10: And how did you manage to bob and weave your

513
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 10: way out of that to something that actually not only

514
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 10: stuck but worked.

515
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 9: I'm just so relieved and so grateful because of all

516
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 9: those obstacles. You know, the most important answer is that

517
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 9: these women who came forward did this incredibly brave and

518
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 9: difficult thing. I mean, I worked with them for months,

519
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 9: and we had so many tough conversations about the pros

520
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 9: and the cons and the threats to their career and

521
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 9: the threats to their physical safety. And you know, as

522
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 9: you know, one of the articles I wrote exposed this

523
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 9: whole system of hiring like combat ready, yeah, massage and yeah.

524
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 9: I mean, like there's real cloak and dagger stuff going

525
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 9: on here. And from the beginning, you know, the women

526
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 9: involved in the story were warning me of that, and

527
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 9: I knew that every single person who had told their

528
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,959
Speaker 9: story did it because they thought it could help protect

529
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 9: the next woman to come along, and because they had

530
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 9: done this incredibly difficult thing. I just wouldn't have been

531
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 9: able to live with myself if I had allowed it

532
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 9: to be shut down, or if I had given up.

533
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 9: The other aspect of it is, by the time I

534
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 9: got to the decision point of like, Okay, my life

535
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 9: is falling apart, I got no more career, Like nothing

536
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 9: like this is the maybe ies you know, swung too

537
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 9: wide on this. I couldn't go back because I really had,

538
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 9: like I gambled everything. You know, I'd spent a year

539
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 9: of my life and all the opportunities I thought I

540
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 9: had and was pursuing had gone away, And did you

541
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 9: the only choice I had was to stick with it.

542
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 10: Did you feel like your exit at MSNBC was like,

543
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 10: was that the end of the world, like when you

544
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 10: walked out of that building with your box?

545
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 4: Or I don't know.

546
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 10: I can always tell when someone leaves MSNBC because of

547
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 10: certain white box that they carry outside of It's never

548
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 10: happy look on their face when they're carrying.

549
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 9: Leaving anywhere where you thought you were building a future

550
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 9: is incredibly hard. I was at the time, not at MSNBC.

551
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 9: I was on the Today Show. But you know, yeah,

552
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 9: I know it all. It's all one news organization. You're

553
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 9: right to consider it the same, uh, And you know,

554
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 9: I'm really proud of the work the Investigative Unit did

555
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 9: on a bunch of stories I worked on there, and yeah,

556
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 9: you know, look, things things changed as I was working

557
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 9: on this story.

558
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 10: So at the time of the Today Show, did you

559
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 10: hear any rumblings of what was happening at the time.

560
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 9: I am going to have to be careful in this

561
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 9: conversation about that. You too, You're a you're a tough interviewer. Look,

562
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 9: I do think that it's you don't know, but you

563
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 9: are the the.

564
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 4: I thought I was asking soft questions like in the past.

565
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 9: Look, I think there's a lot of valid questions out

566
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 9: there about how all these things connect together. And you know,

567
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,239
Speaker 9: I gotta make sure that that story is told in

568
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 9: the right way at the right time.

569
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 8: That's what I was going to ask you, because you

570
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 8: chose well, obviously this book must have been in the

571
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 8: works before it was Yeah, okay, because there must be

572
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 8: something in process to tell the story of your process

573
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 8: in doing this article.

574
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think further down the line, people are right

575
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 9: to hammer me with questions about this and and I

576
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 9: will make sure you've.

577
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 10: Talked about Okay, I'm sorry. I just assumed that once

578
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 10: the he was done and yeah, that it was like.

579
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 9: No, Look, I mean they I will say, broadly, the

580
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 9: story behind stories like this can be important because when

581
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 9: something this important and this dangerous stays quiet for this long, uh,

582
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 9: that's not an accident. And there's a lot of reasons

583
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 9: for that, And I think you know now that we

584
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 9: are grappling with the underlying allegations, and it was really

585
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 9: important to me that the women's stories be at the

586
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 9: center of the conversation. So I also didn't want to

587
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 9: distract from that. But I think as we get further

588
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 9: and further out, you know, it will be important to

589
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 9: really take a hard look at ourselves in the media

590
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 9: and across our society, and and look at the systems

591
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 9: that keep these sorts of things quiet.

592
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 4: How long did you research that the Weinstein story?

593
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 9: The big first interview was done in January of last year.

594
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 9: The first you know, research and calls would have happened

595
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 9: sort of October November of twenty sixteen. Yeah, so about

596
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 9: a year.

597
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 10: So your book or my book, my summering book.

598
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 4: What did you first start? Right?

599
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 9: By the way, I love that image of you with

600
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 9: war on piece in your lap. I snapped the picture.

601
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 9: I'm instagramming that.

602
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 4: It's right here. How long was the process too?

603
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 9: Way too long?

604
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 4: Yeah?

605
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 11: And you had to be fly around the world a

606
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 11: little bit too, right?

607
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 9: Yeah? Yeah, you saw there's all sorts of crazy exotic

608
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 9: locations in there. It took five years, all told, to

609
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 9: write this book, and a lot of the actual writing

610
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 9: happened at the end. And part of that was because

611
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 9: the Weinstein story like took over my life, and right

612
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 9: at the moment where I was supposed to be in

613
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 9: crunch mode for the book, I was juggling these two

614
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 9: giant things.

615
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 4: Were your editors understanding?

616
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 9: Like, okay, no, no, they were not. They actually they

617
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 9: dropped the book and I had to resell it to

618
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 9: a wonderful team at Norton, my current publisher.

619
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 8: Serious for a yeah, oh they are mad. They when

620
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 8: did they drove?

621
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 4: People are mad? A lot of people are in regret mood.

622
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 11: Now, Yeah, because I need to know when did they drop?

623
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 9: Right at the as the Weinstein story was heating up,

624
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 9: This would have been like maybe April of last year. Yeah,

625
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 9: you know, there's great, great people over there, and I'm

626
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 9: sure they're doing fine. But it was obviously a huge

627
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 9: blow to me personally. And there are so many brave

628
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 9: whistleblowers that you know, they knew and I knew had

629
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 9: gone on the record for this book, and I couldn't

630
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 9: let them down either. Because this book is the story

631
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 9: of first of all transformation in America's role in the world.

632
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 9: That's really important to all of our safety. And second

633
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 9: of all of brave men and women in an unsung

634
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 9: career who are really getting pushed out right now and

635
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 9: denigrated and who are profoundly misunderstood and abused by politicians.

636
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 11: They're abused by the public because in a way public.

637
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 11: It's funny because I was thinking.

638
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 8: To myself in reading, because I didn't read the whole thing,

639
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 8: but I've ran through it, and I was like, oh,

640
00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 8: so now I feel bad about beeping at the guys

641
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 8: to get the park anywhere they want to with the

642
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 8: diplomat tags, I was like, I'm.

643
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 11: Going to raise in DC, so I'm to get the

644
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 11: park he wants to. And now I get it. I'm like, Okay.

645
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 9: You know, these are men and women who turn down

646
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 9: opportunities to make a lot more money in the private sector,

647
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 9: who go to the most dangerous and difficult places on

648
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 9: Earth at times, move their families around every few years,

649
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 9: and they do it because they know that their work

650
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 9: makes the United States safer. Yeah. I mean they are

651
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 9: the first line of defense against dangerous people getting into

652
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 9: our country.

653
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 4: Uh.

654
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 9: They are the people responsible when you get into a

655
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 9: crisis or take a taken hostage and you've got to

656
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 9: get pulled out. And they're the people who, hopefully if

657
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 9: we empower them, which we are not, broker the deals

658
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 9: that keep our brave service men and women out of conflicts.

659
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 9: You know, war should not be the first solution.

660
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 10: Well, you said that people would think that with this

661
00:33:55,120 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 10: current administration that we're quote air quote under that sort

662
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 10: of the decline of the diplomacy overseas and other territories.

663
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 10: Most of us would think that the the client is

664
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 10: starting now, but you actually said that it was this

665
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 10: has been going on, like doing the Clinton and doing

666
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 10: the Bush Bush one and the Reagan administration.

667
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 9: So there's two things going on here. A lot of

668
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 9: the book is devoted to the crisis under the Trump administration.

669
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 9: I mean, this is a crazy new extreme where we

670
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 9: are literally purging the State Department, just mass firings, hundreds

671
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 9: of diplomatic posts, empty.

672
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 11: Empty, right. Can you say the number, It's not.

673
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 9: I mean it changes all the time, So I don't

674
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 9: want to give a number now because it will change

675
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 9: by the time we and sometimes it gets worse not better,

676
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 9: by the way. Yeah, but it's we're talking about you know,

677
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 9: major embassies without an ambassador, major offices around the State

678
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 9: Department without an assistant secretary to run that region, and

679
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 9: it means that we're flying blind in all sorts of

680
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 9: big challenges all around the world. I Bookend War on

681
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 9: Peace with the story of this guy, Tom Countryman, which

682
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 9: is his real name. Unbelievably, Yeah, that's not like a

683
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 9: stage name, that's his real name. And he is indeed

684
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 9: like a patriotic guy you knows, served in all these

685
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 9: dangerous places for years and years, and he was the

686
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 9: top official on arms control at the State Department. And

687
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 9: he got fired within days of Trump coming in. And

688
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 9: you think about that, like at a time when we're

689
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 9: facing down Iran and North Korea and arms control is

690
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,760
Speaker 9: one of our biggest challenges. We just gave the boot

691
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 9: to our top expert on that field. So a big

692
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 9: part of this is the Trump era. But you're right,

693
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 9: you know, when people say this is unprecedented, that's not

694
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 9: quite the right word, because there's a lot of precedent

695
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 9: you can look at and draw really clear lessons from.

696
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 9: You mentioned the Clinton administration. Clinton over the course of

697
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 9: the nineties cut spending on development and diplomacy by thirty percent,

698
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 9: and we closed all sorts of embassies around the world.

699
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 9: The embassies we had left were short funded. We shuddered

700
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 9: two really important government agencies, one on information which obviously

701
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 9: we could use that skill set as we go up

702
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 9: against ISIS propaganda, one on arms control. And you know,

703
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 9: these are lasting pieces of damage that we really felt

704
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 9: after nine to eleven when we needed diplomats more and instead,

705
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 9: obviously what we've seen is everything gets run through the Pentagon.

706
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, book.

707
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 8: It's interesting because number one, I wanted to big you

708
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 8: up because the way you kind of explain things as

709
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 8: you go and you learn about the State Department and

710
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 8: you learn about everybody's role. But it also becomes very

711
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 8: scary as you really realize, to dumb it down, that

712
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 8: we don't have as many friends in these countries as

713
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 8: we used to and when it comes to American representation,

714
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 8: which is kind of scary. And then it goes back

715
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 8: to the White House, who we are the only ones

716
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 8: really communicating with these outside entities, which is.

717
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 10: Yeah, are you saying in the case of North Korea

718
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 10: there should have been way more. Did we ever have

719
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:07,720
Speaker 10: representation in North Korea?

720
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 4: At all?

721
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 9: So it's not about wanting an embassy there, you know,

722
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 9: I think everyone agrees that, like, it wouldn't be the

723
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 9: right thing to recognize them as a state in that

724
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 9: way at present until they reform in a whole lot

725
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,720
Speaker 9: of ways. But what we have had in recent history

726
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 9: are really concerted efforts led by really experienced diplomats to

727
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 9: have talks with them and other players in the region

728
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 9: that can kind of squeeze them and exert pressure, like

729
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 9: the Chinese. So under George W. Bush, for instance, there

730
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 9: were six party talks led by this guy Chris Hill,

731
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 9: who's a career diplomat who's profiled in this book. And

732
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 9: you know, it's too simple to say that he just failed.

733
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 9: You know, they worked really hard around the clock for

734
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 9: a long time. They got North Korea to shut down

735
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 9: some of its reactors for the first time. They got

736
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 9: some concessions and some transparency. In the end, you know,

737
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 9: it fell through North Korea and followed through to the

738
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 9: extent we wanted. But there were significant inroads made in

739
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 9: our ability to talk to China about this. And we've

740
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 9: just thrown that all out since then.

741
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 11: And because Trump said he's the reason that we have

742
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 11: where China is.

743
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, And you know, Trump is trumpeting a lot

744
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 9: about the I'm so sorry for that accidental point about this,

745
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 9: you know, meeting potentially leader to leader in the North

746
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 9: Korea crisis. I just got to say, and this is

747
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 9: addressed in the book. What all the experts who have

748
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 9: been immersed in trying to crack the North Korea problem

749
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,280
Speaker 9: for years say is time will tell what that means

750
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 9: a meeting like that, because North Korea is really wily.

751
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,439
Speaker 9: They lie all the time, and there's a real risk

752
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,760
Speaker 9: that we get played. If you go into a meeting

753
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 9: leader to leader, it can be a way to legitimize

754
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 9: them as a nuclear power. They can run around saying, hey,

755
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 9: now we're recognized and we can have new because that's

756
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 9: one of their key demands. We don't necessarily have a

757
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 9: long term strategy in which to embed that meeting. And

758
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 9: that's a problem because we no longer have a corps

759
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 9: of experts devoted to North Korea at the State Department.

760
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 8: I was like, so this is not going to have

761
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 8: a happy ending, because we're still useful too.

762
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 9: There's some hope in this book. I mean, I talk

763
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 9: about the fact that there are still these brave men

764
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,760
Speaker 9: and women doing this work in difficult places around the world,

765
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 9: and and I talk about some of the examples in

766
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 9: recent history that suggests that if we support them, you

767
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 9: can actually turn things around.

768
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 8: So where are so where do you think it's important?

769
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 8: And they are there because they've been pulled out of

770
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 8: so many places.

771
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 4: I have one quick question there.

772
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,359
Speaker 10: I believe that, you know, obviously, in the name of pettiness,

773
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 10: I believe the Trump administration this is setting down UH

774
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 10: or firing UH at will.

775
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 4: Who he pleases.

776
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 10: What were the reasons or at least between the Reagan

777
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 10: and the Obama administration, did you see the decline of

778
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 10: diplomacy around the world, Like, what were the reasons of

779
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 10: Were they saying that, Okay, this particular place in Zambia

780
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 10: or or this African nation, we don't need you know,

781
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 10: five diplomats there.

782
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 9: So I'm careful not to oversimplify the problem.

783
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 8: UH.

784
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 9: The State Department bureaucracy is slow moving, it's broken and

785
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 9: outdated in a lot of ways. And you know, part

786
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 9: of this conversation is people saying, well, we need to

787
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 9: cut back because we need to reform, and I think

788
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 9: that that's not unreasonable. You know, intelligent reform where we

789
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 9: reshape what our diplomacy looks like, is a great.

790
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 11: Idea, but there's no plan.

791
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:50,760
Speaker 9: No, there's no plan. They are cutting.

792
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 4: What's the soul, not fat, what's the idea plan?

793
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 9: Well, you know, the example I would point to is,

794
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 9: since you were asking about history, you know, during World

795
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 9: War Two, I went back and found a lot of

796
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 9: the old headlines covering the State Department then, and they

797
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 9: sound a whole lot like headlines about the Rex Tillerson

798
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 9: State Department in the past year, people saying we've got

799
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 9: a broken State Department. You know, it's not doing its job.

800
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 9: You know, we need to throw it out the window.

801
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 9: We need to reform it. And what's interesting is what

802
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 9: we did then, which is instead of throwing it out,

803
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 9: we really reshaped it for a modern era. You know,

804
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 9: mass communication was on the rise. We created all sorts

805
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 9: of new offices and new priorities. We cut older offices

806
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 9: that were now outdated, and you ended up with a

807
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 9: period where we had the creation of you know, NATO

808
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 9: and the UN and the World Bank and all of

809
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 9: these structures we still rely on. So I think you

810
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 9: can reform it.

811
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 11: Is that want this administration, though.

812
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 9: This administration doesn't seem to want it.

813
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 11: This is what I'm saying. It's gonna be empty positions, yes, emptiness.

814
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm curious to get your take on what you

815
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 6: think the role of technology plays in kind of our

816
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 6: decline of diplomacy, just because this is the first time

817
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 6: I think we're just living in the air where information

818
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:07,439
Speaker 6: and misinformation just flies so fast, you know what I mean.

819
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 6: And so I'm curious, what do you think, Like, you know,

820
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 6: when you were talking about you know, like forty hell

821
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,399
Speaker 6: not even forty years ago, like during the Bush one,

822
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 6: I mean, there was no Twitter, there was no social media.

823
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 6: So now stories can break and you know, it may

824
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 6: be all the way source, it may be whatever, but

825
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 6: it can just go so off the rails. What do

826
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 6: you think the role that social media has played, either

827
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:32,240
Speaker 6: good or bad, like in the role.

828
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 4: Of all that.

829
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 9: It's a really good question, and it's something I talk

830
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 9: about a lot in the book. The rise of instant

831
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 9: communication technology has profoundly affected the role of diplomats. Right,

832
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 9: you don't need an ambassador in a foreign land to

833
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 9: deliver a message anymore, like that cool kind of magical

834
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 9: responsibility that they once had of here is a letter

835
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 9: from the United States. Isn't how it works anymore? And

836
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 9: I think that that's part of what allows some of

837
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 9: this destructive political rhetoric where there's just the constant denigration

838
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 9: of diplomats says, you know, dusty bureaucrats who don't get

839
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,439
Speaker 9: anything done, which I think is really unfair and short

840
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 9: changes the important work they do. The fact that we

841
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 9: don't need letters delivered in person anymore doesn't mean that

842
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 9: we don't need experts who understand the most complicated crises

843
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,399
Speaker 9: on Earth and know how to get American citizens out

844
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,320
Speaker 9: and protect their interests and cut deals that advance our influence.

845
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 4: Yeah.

846
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 10: So, if we are lacking, or if we're declining, and

847
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,919
Speaker 10: I don't know how sharp that decline is, I think

848
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 10: I know the answer. But who is picking up the

849
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 10: slack and who is slow to win? Who's on point

850
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:52,439
Speaker 10: right now?

851
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 9: As far as I'm glad you asked that, because one

852
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 9: of the kind of the like shadow that is cast

853
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 9: over this story in the book is that China is

854
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 9: doing the opposite thing right now. And you know, I

855
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,760
Speaker 9: don't mean to hold up China as some paragon of virtue.

856
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,320
Speaker 9: I think it's pretty troubling if China is filling the space.

857
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 9: But the fact is, yes, I mean I think there

858
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 9: are pros and cons to Chinese leadership, and it varies

859
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 9: around the world, but certainly I do think the United States,

860
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 9: despite all of our flaws, is still a more sincere

861
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 9: and ardent defender of human rights. And I do think

862
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,879
Speaker 9: that we want American influence, you know, in large parts,

863
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 9: despite all the ways in which we screw up and

864
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 9: can be a malign influence. I think it is a

865
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 9: good thing for the world if we are running things correctly.

866
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 9: And what we're seeing right now is in important places

867
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 9: around the world, China is investing in more and more diplomats.

868
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 9: And I'll give you an example. You know, I was

869
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 9: in Sudan for a while, and in Sudan, China for

870
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 9: a long time played the role that we kind of

871
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 9: stereotypically think of China as playing, which where they're this

872
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 9: interloper that is totally callous about human rights and they're

873
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 9: extracting the oil and like aiding and a bedding a genocide.

874
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 9: And I wrote about that a lot at the time.

875
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,760
Speaker 9: Now China has like a regional envoy who's doing shuttle

876
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 9: diplomacy trying to like cut a peace deal there, so

877
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 9: they have a whole Yeah, they because they want to

878
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 9: ascend to a status of global leadership, and there are

879
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 9: kids all around the world growing up with really clear

880
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 9: signs of Chinese leadership and development, big infrastructure projects in

881
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 9: places where we no longer even have embassies.

882
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 4: Wow.

883
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, that's kind of my reaction to that.

884
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 4: That's not learn.

885
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 9: Kinda yeah, we got to do our role. Call a

886
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 9: Mandarin next time.

887
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 10: Let me ask, let me ask you. You know, I'll

888
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:58,439
Speaker 10: say that at least okay. You know, I still watch

889
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 10: Mantle Show, and it's sort of kind of like my

890
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 10: my lullaby, like I gotta see what, you know, just

891
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 10: suck and sleep at night.

892
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 9: She's great, She's so principal.

893
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 4: Am I am? I? Am I? It is twenty eighteen

894
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 4: a pipe dream? Is it? In terms of impeachment, it's no.

895
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 4: In terms of midterms, the idea of like do you

896
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:23,760
Speaker 4: do you?

897
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 9: Oh man, I'm not going to handicap that race. All

898
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 9: I can say is I'm going to keep on telling

899
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,359
Speaker 9: stories that I hope are relevant to voters as they

900
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 9: make informed decisions. And you know, I've been exposing some

901
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 9: of these secret election season payments in my latest round

902
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,919
Speaker 9: of New Yorker Stories, and I think there's a lot

903
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,240
Speaker 9: to uncover here about the abuse of power and how

904
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 9: powerful people can distort people's perceptions during an election. And

905
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,959
Speaker 9: it's not my job to project whether that has any

906
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 9: impact or to hope that it doesn't impact.

907
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 4: Are you speaking of the Facebook situation or.

908
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 9: The that that's part of the whole soup of things

909
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 9: that happened. But the last few stories I did were

910
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 9: about secret payments to to silence stories, this practice of

911
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 9: catch and kill where there were you know, stories that

912
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 9: might have seen the light of day and didn't because

913
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 9: of transactions that were covered up at the time, seemingly

914
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 9: on behalf of the president.

915
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 10: But it's obvious that people, uh, you know, he wants

916
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 10: to make that statement, like I could stand on Fifth

917
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:29,919
Speaker 10: Avenue somebody and nothing what happened to me? And I'm

918
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 10: almost thinking, like, oh, he's absolutely right, Like his believer

919
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 10: is going to believe what they believe.

920
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 11: That's what I was thinking.

921
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 10: But in a case, But but then there's a case

922
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 10: of like Sinais Wayne's statement last week where she said

923
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,359
Speaker 10: that you know, as a Canadian and I know, like

924
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 10: there's there's the people that scare me.

925
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 9: The most, She'd vote for.

926
00:47:50,880 --> 00:48:00,080
Speaker 10: Yeah, because she felt he told the truth but but

927
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 10: the thing is is that I believe that if she

928
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 10: truly saw what was happening and was informed, she would

929
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 10: know better.

930
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 9: But the problem is, you guys have to get on.

931
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 10: I'm not caping for Shania whatsoever, but this is the

932
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 10: person that I know, Like I keep my television on

933
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 10: twenty four to seven watching news. Now this is subsequently

934
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 10: also bringing down my spirit as a human being? Am

935
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,839
Speaker 10: I being less productive because I gotta keep I gotta

936
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,320
Speaker 10: figure out even when I bust into Zara's office, who's

937
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 10: not speaking at all?

938
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 4: Right now? For now?

939
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 9: I know, do we get one sound bite?

940
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 10: By the end, she literally like, I wanted you to

941
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 10: ask about Mike Pompeiio.

942
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 8: Okay, why don't you ask about what?

943
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 4: Do you want to know what about Mike? I was

944
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,439
Speaker 4: wondering if you think things are going to get better

945
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 4: if she gets in there?

946
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 9: So I would say today things one is, here's what

947
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 9: we know about Mike Pompeo's record in terms of his

948
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 9: position on the issues. You know, he's extremely hawkish. He

949
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 9: has been right there with the President saber rattling about

950
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 9: dismantling the Iran deal and stepping away from a diplomatic

951
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 9: approach you know, the president sent him right after firing

952
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 9: Rex Tillerson to meet with the North Koreans, you know,

953
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 9: while he was CIA director. So he's already been sort

954
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 9: of part of this moment where we're seeing the work

955
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 9: of diplomats outsourced to soldiers and spies. That said, I've

956
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 9: continued to talk to all these whistleblowers whose stories are

957
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:48,359
Speaker 9: in war on peace, and hope really springs eternal with them.

958
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:49,919
Speaker 9: You know, they in there.

959
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 11: This is not a this is not a first time thing.

960
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 8: Because Colin, they made a mistake of the Clinton right,

961
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 8: the Clint administration made a mistake with Colin Powell, and

962
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 8: they say that they made a mistake with placing diplomacy.

963
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 9: I think multiple administrations realized they made a mistake on this.

964
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 9: You know, late in the game. The Clinton administration, after

965
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 9: his first Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, sounded a whole

966
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,240
Speaker 9: lot like Rex Tillerson defending these deep cuts to the department.

967
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 9: Madeline Albright came in and was much more focused on

968
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 9: large scale diplomacy. During the Bush administration, you know, after

969
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,360
Speaker 9: the disasters of Iraq, condalize rices on the record in

970
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 9: this book talking about you know, needing more diplomacy, and

971
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 9: that's the period in which they took this run at

972
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,760
Speaker 9: the North Korea problem, and I talk about that as well.

973
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,240
Speaker 9: Often this realization comes too late. There are senior Obama

974
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 9: administration officials saying, you know, we kind of expressing regret

975
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 9: about the fact that they had an Afghanistan policy that

976
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 9: was really overtaken by celebrity generals, and how they tried

977
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 9: to course correct and get more diplomatic views in the

978
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 9: room later on, and you wound up with the Iran Deal,

979
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 9: the thaw in relations with Cuba, the Paris Climate Change Accord.

980
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,760
Speaker 9: So if you invest in diplomacy, you can get results.

981
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 9: You just have to have leadership. And you know, to

982
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 9: circle it back to Mike Pompeo, I think there's a

983
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 9: lot of hope right now about him. There's a lot

984
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 9: of sincere hope that he will invest in diplomacy and

985
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 9: defend that institution and believe in the brave men and

986
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 9: women working there, which we haven't seen so far in

987
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 9: this administration.

988
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 2: What's going to be the final Jenga cube that you

989
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 2: pull that everything's going to crumble down?

990
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 4: Oh man?

991
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 10: Because it seems like do you feel the pressure, because

992
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,400
Speaker 10: I don't want to put that on you, but I

993
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 10: feel like I'm sure you did it before you can

994
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 10: do it again. One of you is going to get that.

995
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 10: All the presidents men like a movie like not that

996
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:48,280
Speaker 10: that should.

997
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 4: Be your motivation. I thought it was going to be

998
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 4: stormy day.

999
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 9: It's not. It's not my job to, you know, try

1000
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 9: to bring down anyone. It wasn't even my job to

1001
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 9: try to bring down Harvey Weinstein. My job was to

1002
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 9: make those survivors feel heard, which they hadn't been for

1003
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 9: a long time. And I think similarly with the reporting

1004
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 9: I've done on the Trump administration and even the stories

1005
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,439
Speaker 9: I tell in this book. You know, my job is

1006
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 9: to get as close to the truth as possible and

1007
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:15,959
Speaker 9: to pull back the curtain on stuff that people haven't

1008
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 9: wanted you to see.

1009
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:18,800
Speaker 4: How how can you okay?

1010
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 10: So doubling back to because I realized I didn't, I

1011
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 10: didn't clear myself up with snill listen.

1012
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 4: My point was that I feel as though there are

1013
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 4: people who their whole thing is I just can't. I

1014
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 4: can't watch the news. It it kills me inside.

1015
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 10: And I understand, you know, it's so overwhelming to deal

1016
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 10: with your life and then to see what's happening in

1017
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 10: life there. But it's like, I just I'm one of

1018
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 10: those people that has to keep an eye even though

1019
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 10: I'm not totally immersed in it.

1020
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 4: And you know, I'm yeah, but you care.

1021
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 10: Yeah, And I don't feel as though people don't care,

1022
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 10: but I I do feel that there are a set

1023
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:06,399
Speaker 10: of people that because it won't affect them easily as

1024
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 10: it will others. You know, like I have friends and

1025
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 10: family that are already affected by the doctor situation. You

1026
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 10: know what I'm saying, Yeah, that shit affects me. But

1027
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 10: how do you reach people that are indifferent to watching

1028
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 10: the news that.

1029
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:27,839
Speaker 4: You know, if I can get through a day where

1030
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 4: I don't have.

1031
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 10: To explain to someone and filter it and explaining their

1032
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 10: language that they understand what's going on. Or sometimes I

1033
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 10: go in Zarrors room, I'm like, all right, that hour

1034
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,359
Speaker 10: where I'm shooting fallon six o'clock, using my first thing

1035
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 10: is all right, what happened?

1036
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 4: You know?

1037
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 10: And based on her face some days she's crying because

1038
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 10: some shit happened, or you know, it's how how do

1039
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:56,919
Speaker 10: you how do how do journalists get their groove back

1040
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:03,760
Speaker 10: where you know, where you're counterattacking propaganda television like Fox.

1041
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 4: Can I call them that? I think that is there

1042
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:06,399
Speaker 4: one person?

1043
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 9: Yeah, there are there are individual people at Fox I respect,

1044
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 9: but I do think that.

1045
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 4: Who are they? Who's the two people that you know?

1046
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 9: Look, I think Shep Smith does fairly straight coverage. Actually yeah, yeah,

1047
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 9: you know, he's okay. And I think there are people

1048
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 9: like uh, you know, I don't want to endorse everything

1049
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,359
Speaker 9: each of these people does wholesale, but like Brett Bair

1050
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 9: does some sort of more I think, you know, on

1051
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,439
Speaker 9: those straight and narrow news kind of stuff. But but yes,

1052
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 9: I think overall, you know, that is an organization with

1053
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 9: some very clear ties to the people that are covering.

1054
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 9: And how come they do a lot of damage to

1055
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 9: the conversation? I do think that.

1056
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,439
Speaker 10: But how come the world just can't not the world

1057
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 10: where Americans can't see that?

1058
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 9: Well, So, so to your first point, I think you've

1059
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 9: highlighted one of the most important and difficult challenges we

1060
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 9: have as a society and as reporters too. Apathy is

1061
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 9: in a lot of ways the enemy of progress, and

1062
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 9: it's one of the toughest nuts to crack. I totally

1063
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 9: get and empathize with the fact that people despair when

1064
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:18,919
Speaker 9: they watch the news and they just want to turn away.

1065
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:21,360
Speaker 11: It's overwhelming to people get overwhelmed.

1066
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 9: Yeah, and I do think that the mainstream media deserves

1067
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 9: some blame for the way the twenty four hour news.

1068
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 4: It goes off. Yeah, you have to turn it off,

1069
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 4: like you have to set your right.

1070
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 8: It's alienated and it's the same story, sometimes not the

1071
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 8: same stories, but yeah, the same stories.

1072
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 9: So I think we're part of the problem is systemic

1073
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 9: where there is a broken news system, where the business

1074
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 9: model is built around reritting, rereading the same headline over

1075
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 9: and over again and not offering anything new to the conversation,

1076
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,399
Speaker 9: or doing the other thing that's cheap and easy, which

1077
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 9: is put people in a room and having them shout

1078
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 9: at each other. Yea, all of which I think has

1079
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 9: conspired to make people tune out. And that's really dangerous

1080
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:03,839
Speaker 9: because we need people who like all of you sitting here,

1081
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 9: really profoundly care and are going to be engaged and

1082
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:09,800
Speaker 9: cry if the new cycle dictates that, and want to

1083
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 9: stand up and do something. We all need that. And

1084
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 9: so you know, I hope in the small part that

1085
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,279
Speaker 9: I do to tell stories, I'm doing it in a

1086
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 9: way where people know, it's not part of just hammering

1087
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 9: them over the head with the same old headlines. It's

1088
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:28,359
Speaker 9: not part of the partisan echo chamber, you know, it's

1089
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 9: really giving them some facts that maybe they can be

1090
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 9: armed with as they make decisions.

1091
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:37,319
Speaker 6: Has anyone approached you yet about doing movies about any

1092
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,880
Speaker 6: of yourself, like either warm Piece or your Weinstein stuff,

1093
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:42,399
Speaker 6: because I think that's gonna be when you talk about

1094
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 6: how you reach people. Yeah, getting over the abbe because

1095
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 6: I'm one of those people, you know, I'm straight up

1096
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 6: like yo, all the Trump. So I'm just like, yo,

1097
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 6: just I'm just waiting for Jerry brook Kamer to make

1098
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:51,359
Speaker 6: the movie.

1099
00:56:52,800 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 4: And I will choice cast with Trump. That's just party

1100
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:02,520
Speaker 4: going on.

1101
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, man, Like I'm just waiting because it's just so

1102
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 6: much information and you don't know what's what, what's allied,

1103
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 6: what's true. So I would probably fall into one of

1104
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 6: the category. I'm not just totally apathetic, you know, I

1105
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 6: stay up to some degree, but certainly it's a point

1106
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 6: where you kind of have to shut down. Like, look,

1107
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 6: I got kids to raise. I gotta do my things,

1108
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 6: so I can't be innundated with it all the time.

1109
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 6: But I was curious if anyone has because all this stuff,

1110
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 6: I mean, just the past couple of years of your life,

1111
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 6: it's prime ready for us.

1112
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 9: There's some crazy stories there. Look, I have a lot

1113
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 9: of respect for storytelling in different mediums and the power

1114
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 9: to expand people's horizons with these stories.

1115
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 6: If you can, if you can't, give it up, I mean,

1116
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 6: I get, don't don't fuck up the bad I think.

1117
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 4: You know, I understand.

1118
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 9: I think you're right. I think that you know. These

1119
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 9: stories can reach different audiences if you if you tell

1120
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:59,919
Speaker 9: them right, whether it's in you know, a careful piece

1121
00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 9: of investigative reporting, or a movie or a book or

1122
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 9: a song. I mean, there's a lot of ways to

1123
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 9: move people and help them understand important issues we all

1124
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 9: grapple with.

1125
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 6: Because I thought you before, I know, because before, I

1126
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 6: like before we kind of my prepping for this. I

1127
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:22,959
Speaker 6: watched The Paternal If you watch the joint on HBO,

1128
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:23,959
Speaker 6: the Paternal I haven't.

1129
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 9: Is it good?

1130
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, it is good, it is good, But it's more

1131
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 6: so about like the investigation and.

1132
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 9: How I should I should be watching that as an

1133
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,919
Speaker 9: HBO Okay, I've got I've got an HBO deal starting soon,

1134
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 9: so I'll.

1135
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:37,479
Speaker 11: Breaking news, breaking news, breaking news.

1136
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:41,960
Speaker 4: I'm so crazy right now.

1137
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 9: But oh my god, a sample. Yeah, I'll be you know,

1138
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 9: I'll be turning some of these stories into documentaries and uh,

1139
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 9: you know, I'll be back on TV. And I think

1140
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 9: part of that is because you're right, there's there's different

1141
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 9: ways to get to people and they're all important.

1142
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 4: Is there something bubbling under that you're working on? Yes, yo,

1143
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 4: you said the excavation point at the end of the Okay,

1144
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:22,360
Speaker 4: So when.

1145
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 10: You have a scoop that you know that you have, uh,

1146
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 10: who's your trusted circle?

1147
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 4: Who is your because I don't you know, and.

1148
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 10: I don't know the doggy dog world of journalism or whatnot,

1149
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 10: But when you know you have some ship that no

1150
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 10: one else has.

1151
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 9: So I write for The New Yorker, and I am

1152
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:53,440
Speaker 9: really happy to say that after all of the challenges

1153
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 9: of the past year, you know, I landed in a

1154
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 9: place where there's just some of the best damn journalists

1155
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,680
Speaker 9: on earth supporting me and David I'm Nick who runs

1156
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 9: The New Yorker, who you should totally have on. I

1157
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 9: want to hear him in a roll call. That guy

1158
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 9: is cool as hell and rescued the Weinstein story and

1159
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:12,440
Speaker 9: stood by it. When it was under attack. And uh,

1160
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 9: you know, as I work on upcoming stories, I got

1161
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:18,640
Speaker 9: a great circle of editors that are circle of trust

1162
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 9: there and and fact checkers as we get closer to

1163
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 9: the finish line on each story. And it's a it's

1164
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:26,560
Speaker 9: a wonderful institution. What people should subscribe?

1165
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 4: I mean, can you keep it real? How real are

1166
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 4: the you.

1167
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 9: Know, I always keep it real, but how.

1168
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 10: Real are the threats? Like is it barbershop talk or

1169
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 10: is it some real.

1170
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 9: It's it's some it's some real shit unfortunately. But I mean,

1171
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 9: like you even you, I did, I did move out

1172
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 9: of my place So.

1173
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 10: When you're in a parking lot alone, is it like

1174
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 10: over the shoulder?

1175
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:51,080
Speaker 4: Is it? Yeah?

1176
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 9: I mean it it it It comes and goes. Uh

1177
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 9: you know. I think there are periods where I'm working

1178
01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 9: on a specific story where it gets very very adversary,

1179
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 9: where that is very much the vibe of like, okay,

1180
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 9: maybeing followed. What precautions do I need to take?

1181
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 11: Because that national inquiry that was a big deal.

1182
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 8: Like I mean, if Stormy's looking over her shoulder, yeah,

1183
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 8: definitely looking over yours when you say it is love child.

1184
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 9: And there was a story in the in the New

1185
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 9: York Times last night about some of the connections between

1186
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 9: those allegations of intimidation and you know, people that were

1187
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 9: getting hired and this is all stuff that will continue

1188
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 9: to come to light. But yeah, the answer is it's

1189
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:27,479
Speaker 9: it's real.

1190
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 10: Well, I'm just saying that in the sixties, Uh, they

1191
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 10: handled it, yeah, a certain way. Uh, Whereas I feel

1192
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 10: as though, because there's cameras everywhere, it's hard to execute

1193
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 10: that sort of you know.

1194
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:46,400
Speaker 4: I hope I got a call.

1195
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 9: I mean, I hope you're right that it's harder for

1196
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:52,919
Speaker 9: people to you know, attack other people because of the surveillance.

1197
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:56,480
Speaker 8: Well plus to say house of cars for real, like Ronan,

1198
01:01:56,520 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 8: can't anybody just I just can't see.

1199
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:03,040
Speaker 9: It is it's I will say, you know, without talking

1200
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 9: about the specifics of stuff I've reported on I in

1201
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:09,320
Speaker 9: general terms, I have been startled at how close it

1202
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:13,680
Speaker 9: is to fiction and how you know, kind of cloak

1203
01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:16,480
Speaker 9: and dagger tactics that I didn't think existed in the

1204
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 9: real world really are part of the tool set deployed

1205
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 9: by powerful people when they're on a rampage trying to

1206
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:24,160
Speaker 9: stop something from coming out.

1207
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 10: But almost the thing that I'm marvel at the most

1208
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 10: is that I don't think that this current administration is

1209
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 10: truly aware of the power of how technology works. Like

1210
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:39,960
Speaker 10: I feel like there're so old school, seventies eighties, old school,

1211
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 10: you know, just keep it between us, not knowing that

1212
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 10: we're going to find out the information anyway.

1213
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:51,720
Speaker 9: Like, I mean, it's this weird dichotomy, right because Trump

1214
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:54,040
Speaker 9: is also like the king of Twitter and like late

1215
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 9: night tweets and early morning tweets and tweets with typos.

1216
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 10: It's just so obvious that he comes from the school

1217
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:04,920
Speaker 10: of if you say something enough, they'll believe it, they'll

1218
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:05,400
Speaker 10: believe it.

1219
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:05,920
Speaker 4: Like I can.

1220
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:10,240
Speaker 10: Yeah, I can tell you know, a whitewash when it's

1221
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 10: so obvious and transparent.

1222
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:15,320
Speaker 4: Yeah that I guess.

1223
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 10: This leads me to my last question, which is do

1224
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 10: you have hope for twenty eighteen? And if you do, uh,

1225
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 10: what do you project will.

1226
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 9: Have I guess to the extent that I engage with

1227
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 9: electoral politics at all, it's just wanting to tell stories

1228
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 9: that arm people with as much useful and accurate information

1229
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 9: as possible, you know, I truly that's not a cop out.

1230
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 9: I just I don't think in those terms. I really

1231
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:48,440
Speaker 9: just think in terms of what's the most important story

1232
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:51,000
Speaker 9: I can go after? And I hope I think that

1233
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:55,400
Speaker 9: telling the truth is good for society as a whole,

1234
01:03:55,480 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 9: and I hope that that is also helpful for the Electorate's.

1235
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:01,040
Speaker 4: Funny on record week.

1236
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:05,200
Speaker 9: It's not the world I'm in, you know, I'm not

1237
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 9: in in.

1238
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 11: The world.

1239
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 9: Fair enough.

1240
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 8: But what's funny is you mentioned Malon Aubright And I

1241
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:15,640
Speaker 8: was also thinking about what do you think about Malon

1242
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:18,200
Speaker 8: Abright and people like James Comy like writing these books.

1243
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:20,080
Speaker 8: I mean, in the season of Born Peace, come your

1244
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:20,720
Speaker 8: book coming out of.

1245
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:25,120
Speaker 9: Alright, she was wonderfully candid, you know, and has a

1246
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 9: great uh history of public service and is obviously very frank,

1247
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:33,640
Speaker 9: both in War on Peace and her own book, Fascism

1248
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:37,200
Speaker 9: A Warning. It's subtitled uh. And you know she's also

1249
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 9: she's a you know, uh, I don't say this in

1250
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 9: a disparaging way, but a partisan, so she can talk

1251
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 9: more freely about so then James Comy, well, James Comy,

1252
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:48,560
Speaker 9: it's much more I mean, you know, obviously he's like

1253
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:51,800
Speaker 9: dodging and weaving bullets. And it's a whole careful process.

1254
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 9: Anytime you have a government agency reviewing your book, and yeah,

1255
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:57,840
Speaker 9: I think it was almost inevitable that it was going

1256
01:04:57,880 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 9: to be a minefield for him to do a press

1257
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:00,120
Speaker 9: store for that book.

1258
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 11: The wrong time.

1259
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 9: I don't know. I don't know. It's not for me

1260
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 9: to say. I honestly, I also haven't read the book,

1261
01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 9: so I wouldn't want to say it's the wrong time

1262
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 9: for it to come out. Maybe it's the right time.

1263
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:13,880
Speaker 9: I don't know. But you know, I think he's definitely

1264
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 9: trying to navigate those potholes. Maybe oh you wow, you

1265
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:20,720
Speaker 9: are super disapproving. No, no, no, she's got this look on

1266
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 9: her face like.

1267
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 11: No, no, I'm happy that he came out.

1268
01:05:23,640 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 8: But again, he kind of goes back to what Amir

1269
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:27,400
Speaker 8: said at the end of the day, like, no matter

1270
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:31,320
Speaker 8: who comes out, there's a certain population, a certain people.

1271
01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:32,720
Speaker 4: That they're going to pick the fact.

1272
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:33,480
Speaker 11: They don't see it.

1273
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 9: They ye something wrong with him.

1274
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:38,760
Speaker 4: I believe whoever is wearing the tie says it's true.

1275
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:40,160
Speaker 8: Because yeah, I was all hyped about the book, but

1276
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 8: then I realized, I'm like, I'm hyped with the same

1277
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 8: people again.

1278
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 9: Well, this is this is one of the problems that

1279
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:46,200
Speaker 9: we have to deal with in terms of the media

1280
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:53,600
Speaker 9: landscape where the President was clearly able to exploit, you know,

1281
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 9: both through these catch and kill operations via the Inquirer

1282
01:05:56,640 --> 01:06:01,080
Speaker 9: and also the general co opting of a tabloid media

1283
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 9: outlet that runs constant headlines that are you know, pro

1284
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 9: Trump and anti Hillary Clinton. Well, because it interfaces with

1285
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:10,600
Speaker 9: that audience that you're talking about, that's not necessarily part

1286
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:13,120
Speaker 9: of the conversations you're in, but they are seeing those

1287
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:16,520
Speaker 9: magazine covers on the checkout line. So there's an interesting

1288
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:18,360
Speaker 9: you know, I'm not a media reporter, but there's an

1289
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:23,680
Speaker 9: interesting media narrative here, which is this split nation of

1290
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 9: we're all in our own partisan bubbles. We go on

1291
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:31,200
Speaker 9: Facebook and Twitter and it's algorithmically curated, so you only

1292
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:34,360
Speaker 9: see views you agree with, and then right, and then

1293
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:36,640
Speaker 9: for the people who don't watch the news, you know,

1294
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:40,080
Speaker 9: there's this whole other parallel reality of National Inquirer covers

1295
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:42,880
Speaker 9: and the checkout line at the supermarket, and none of

1296
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 9: these groups are talking to each other. And that's a

1297
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 9: real problem. That's you know, bigger than anything I am

1298
01:06:48,040 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 9: able to sign it right now, that's.

1299
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:52,200
Speaker 4: Weird to me that asteroid Inquirer is still a thing.

1300
01:06:53,120 --> 01:06:56,320
Speaker 9: Yes, I mean it's not in terms of the media conversation,

1301
01:06:56,400 --> 01:07:01,520
Speaker 9: but it is in terms of grocer's denominator.

1302
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 10: Like I'm not saying I've been to the grocery store

1303
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:07,479
Speaker 10: a few times, but they.

1304
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 4: Don't have it that whole food.

1305
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:18,000
Speaker 9: The people that whole foods are are the people in

1306
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:21,080
Speaker 9: your conversation. They're not the people who need convincing, right.

1307
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:22,200
Speaker 11: That's again, that's what I'm saying.

1308
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:24,280
Speaker 4: Some of the people are.

1309
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:27,120
Speaker 10: I don't watch the news, like I work with a

1310
01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 10: lot of I don't know. I think it's I think

1311
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 10: it's almost dangerous on the whole food side of things,

1312
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:36,640
Speaker 10: because again I know, and I work with a lot

1313
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:42,959
Speaker 10: of people who you know, they can afford to turn

1314
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 10: the other way. Look, you know, and.

1315
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:47,360
Speaker 9: That disappoints me.

1316
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:49,360
Speaker 4: That hurts me more.

1317
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:55,480
Speaker 9: I hope everyone with the power to raise their voice

1318
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 9: is doing so in an informed way. That's all. This

1319
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:01,800
Speaker 9: is the apathy that we've been hitting on again and

1320
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:05,439
Speaker 9: again is a really dangerous and disappointing thing. People got

1321
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:06,000
Speaker 9: a care.

1322
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:07,840
Speaker 11: Yeah, and you made us not to go back to

1323
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:08,200
Speaker 11: the book.

1324
01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:10,480
Speaker 8: But Warren Peace made us care about the diplomacy because again,

1325
01:08:10,520 --> 01:08:11,760
Speaker 8: I wasn't even thinking about you.

1326
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:13,840
Speaker 9: I hope. So I think the brave men and women

1327
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:16,760
Speaker 9: doing this work deserve that.

1328
01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:19,639
Speaker 4: Thanks guys, well, thank you. I appreciate you for coming.

1329
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 9: See you guys.

1330
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:22,960
Speaker 11: Can we do do the whole?

1331
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:24,800
Speaker 8: The whole title is War on Piece, the end of

1332
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:27,520
Speaker 8: the plomacy and the decline of the American influence.

1333
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:32,920
Speaker 10: O Wow, heavy words, Ladies and gentlemen, Ladies and gentlemen,

1334
01:08:33,200 --> 01:08:37,479
Speaker 10: or on behalf of Sugar Steve Zarah's Almond.

1335
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:47,280
Speaker 8: Okay, Bill, don't say Boss Bill too, because he thinks

1336
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 8: he always say we forgive it.

1337
01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:51,160
Speaker 4: And Boss Bill, of course we get.

1338
01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:53,559
Speaker 6: We do this on this collection of Green Tea kit

1339
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:55,679
Speaker 6: cats Hell the worst.

1340
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:59,719
Speaker 4: Sorry that was a bad idea. Anyway. This is Quest Love.

1341
01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:03,840
Speaker 10: You were listening to Quest Love Supreme and be safe everybody,

1342
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:05,280
Speaker 10: Thank you, Seeal the next one.

1343
01:09:05,320 --> 01:09:19,200
Speaker 1: While Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio, this

1344
01:09:19,280 --> 01:09:20,360
Speaker 1: classic episode was.

1345
01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:22,440
Speaker 4: Produced by the team at Pandora.

1346
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:30,240
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1347
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:32,760
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.