1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: Als media, Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. 2 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: This is going to be another episode in which we're 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: discussing the Defend the Forest and Stop Copcity movement in Atlanta, Georgia. 4 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: This struggle has always tied together a lot of the 5 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: aspects that we focus on on this show, between the 6 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: collapsing climate, political escalation, and how everything just feels like 7 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: it's kind of getting worse. But through that there's people 8 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: who respond to this crisis of neoliberalism and band together 9 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: and figure out how to sort through all of this 10 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 1: shit and all that is continuing as the City of 11 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: Atlanta and State of Georgia unveil new state repression tactics 12 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: to chill any resistance to the construction of this ninety 13 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: million dollar police training facility that we have covered in 14 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,959 Speaker 1: depth in this show the past few years. A few 15 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: months ago there was another three part series about the 16 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: sixth Week of Action in June, but new things have 17 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: happened since then. The referendum has been submitted to that 18 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: is all in process, but the same day construction was 19 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: scheduled to begin, the State of Georgia indicted sixty one 20 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 1: people on rico charges, RICO is an acronym referring to 21 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:29,839 Speaker 1: the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act. This specific act 22 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: is meant to legally target organizations, and organizations can relate 23 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: to anything between you know, traditional incorporated organizations or something 24 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: as loose as like a pickup basketball team, which is 25 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: how the state is able to paint whole communities of 26 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: people who are just connected by similar values as being 27 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: a quote unquote organization. The RICO Act, in practice is 28 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: basically a way to criminalize a whole community. Now I'm 29 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: not a lawyer, but I do know lawyer. So for 30 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: this episode, I brought on Mo Cohen, a lawyer specializing 31 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: in state repression. So, without further ado, here is my 32 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: conversation with them. Mo, Hello, thank you for joining me today. 33 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 2: No grab them, It's my pleasure. 34 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: So in late August, the Fulton County District Attorney and 35 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 1: other kind of legal entities with the State of Georgia 36 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: unveiled a whole bunch of RICO charges against I believe 37 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: sixty one people relating to the Stop Coop City quote 38 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: unquote movement. It's part of like like I said, it's 39 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 1: an ongoing kind of campaign of repression that we've talked 40 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,119 Speaker 1: about pretty in depth before. But before we get into 41 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: the actual like rico charges, I first want to kind 42 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: of talk about the raid that happened against the Atlanta 43 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: Solidarity Fund earlier this year, and a whole bunch of 44 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: like financial crime charges that they've been trying to use 45 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 1: to suppress the bail fund organizing. I think we've talked 46 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: about this kind of briefly on the show before, but 47 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: we've never really gotten very much in depth about it, 48 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 1: and from my perspective, a lot of these reco charges 49 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: are very much related to the depression of the Solidarity 50 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: Fund mode. I assume you're familiar with the Solidarity Fund 51 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: raid and the charges against against the Network for Strong Communities. 52 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: I am, Yeah. Do I talk a little bit about 53 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 1: that event. I think that happened in May of this year, 54 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: I believe, so. 55 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 2: It wasn't a huge surprise. It wasn't, in my opinion, 56 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 2: a very well grounded or legally warranted indictment. Yeah, and 57 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: certainly the way that the way that law enforcement went 58 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 2: in to retrieve those three people who were indicted was 59 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: a little extra particularly given the nature of the allegations. 60 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 2: I think people who are accused of financial crimes don't 61 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 2: typically get taken out with a swat team. But I 62 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 2: don't think it was a huge surprise that the district 63 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: attorney brought those charges because this kind of reco indictment 64 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 2: was anticipated, and those kinds of financial charges or allegations 65 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 2: of financial misconduct are sort of the predicate for bringing 66 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: this kind of sweeping rego indictment. 67 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think like in like the weeks and 68 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: months prior to the swat raid against the Solidarity Fund 69 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: in May, people at the Solidarity Fund were basically warning 70 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 1: that they were they were like suspecting that they would 71 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: that there would be some form of reco charges used 72 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: against the movement, and everyone was kind of like preparing 73 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: for that. That was definite. Was definitely talked about as like 74 00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: as a potential like a tactic of of suppression. You 75 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: know when you say that the types of like financial 76 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: crime like fraud charges that that were brought against this 77 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: the Sole Fund people, how they seem kind of unwarranted. 78 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: That is something that the judge in the bond hearing 79 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: kind of agreed with. 80 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 2: The judge was unimpressed. 81 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: Yes that I I I listened to the I listened 82 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: to the hearing, and the judge is very skeptical of 83 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: the prosecution's claims and basically told the prosecution like, if 84 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: you like actually want this to like succeed like in 85 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: actual like court, you know, once once this progresses, you're 86 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: you're gonna have to have a much much stronger case 87 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: because this all seems kind of like nonsense. But you 88 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 1: know that that didn't stop the prosecutors and the I 89 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 1: believe it's the Attorney General Office as well of Georgia 90 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: of using using kind of some stuff from this from 91 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: this raid against the Solidarity Fund and trying to kind 92 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: of tie together this grand conspiracy narrative that we now 93 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: see in this in this reco indictment. So let's I 94 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: guess let's let's talk a little bit about the Rico 95 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: indictment at this At this point, so rico is a 96 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: very like scary word, right, Like this is like I 97 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 1: feel like everyone kind of knows about like rico like 98 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: like a pop culture like it's like geist sense. But 99 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: do I actually like talk about like what these types 100 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: of rico charges actually are because like you know, most people, 101 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: even if they're charged with the crime, right, most people 102 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: don't ever like have to deal with, Like RICO as 103 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: like a concept, So do it you know, if if 104 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: if you're like arrested at a protest to get like, 105 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: you know, pedestrian in roadway, there's like a litany of 106 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: other kind of basic charges that cops will throw at you. 107 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: RICO is a bit more serious, Like it's kind of 108 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: it's kind of like a scary ordeal, you know, same 109 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: thing with like the domestic terrorism charges that that that 110 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: have been used the past year. 111 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 2: So yes, what is a lot more serious. Yeah, So 112 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 2: what exactly is rico. RICO is, uh, while it was 113 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 2: initially a federal law that was passed in effort to 114 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 2: target specifically organized crime, because federal prosecutors were having a 115 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: difficult time prosecuting these sort of individual offenses that were 116 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 2: being committed by dispersed groups of individuals who are all 117 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: acting maybe not in concert, but in the service of 118 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 2: a larger criminal enterprise. There's a couple of important things 119 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 2: that I want to say just upfront. Sure, The first 120 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 2: thing is this is not the first time that RICO 121 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 2: has been used against movement people. The second thing I 122 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 2: want to say is that all prosecutions are political prosecutions, 123 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 2: and RICO is no different. Although federal RICO and ostensibly 124 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 2: Georgia State RICO were developed and passed in an effort 125 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 2: to target organized crime, that is not how they've been 126 00:07:55,600 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 2: primarily used. And I think it is really significant to 127 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 2: note that after a lot of the people of color 128 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: solidarity movements like the Black Panthers of Black Liberation, Army Aim, 129 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 2: the Brown Berets, the Young Lords, these groups were all 130 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 2: really weakened by Cohen telpro and the community groups that 131 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 2: remained were then labeled as gangs and prosecuted under RICO. 132 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 2: And so I just you know, everything that happens in 133 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 2: this conversation, we have to sort of hold in our 134 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: minds that this particular movement is not the first movement 135 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 2: and not the first community who has had REGO leveled 136 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 2: against it as a form of state repression. 137 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and specifically Fultland County. It looks like the batch 138 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: of indictments that we're using these preco charges, it looks 139 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: like this was, at least according to the Atlantic Constitution Journal, 140 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 1: people this this was the same grand jury that did 141 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: the RICO dinitements against former President Donald Trump as well 142 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: for this, for this, for this batch of charges, and 143 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: they've used they've used RICO charges against like young black 144 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: wrappers in the past. This is this is a a 145 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: thing that the Fulton County Office has has done before. Yes, 146 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: and also like we have like rico's this is like 147 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: a criminal racketeering thing against the mob. In terms of 148 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: like what RICO actually is, like is it its own 149 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: separate charge or is it like is it a way 150 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: to like apply other felony charges, like you know, can 151 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: can you just be charged with RICO or is there 152 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: have to be like other other crimes that you're accused 153 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: of for them to actually use this use this charge 154 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: against these activists. 155 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 2: RICO is its own criminal offense, but it relies upon 156 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 2: there having been other criminal offenses committed in the service 157 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 2: of a larger criminal enterprise or a conspiracy to try 158 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: to do crimes in the service of a larger criminal enterprise. 159 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 2: And one of the reasons that it is so broad 160 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 2: in Sweep, I mean, federal RICO is already very broad 161 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 2: in Sweep and Georgia Rica in particular is notorious for 162 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 2: being even broader. One of the reasons it is so 163 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 2: attractive to prosecutors is precisely because it can capture these 164 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 2: large groups of people with very little actual criminal conduct. 165 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: Okay, So yeah, that's kind of one of the things 166 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: that we want to talk about is I read the 167 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: indictment as soon as it came out, as soon as 168 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: it was made public. It is it is a long document. 169 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: The first patch of it is just like it's almost 170 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: like a really bad like Wikipedia article on like like 171 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: what anarchism is is how is how the document starts. 172 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: And then it gets into all these like alleged alleged 173 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: like a thing that are not necessarily criminal nature, but 174 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: they're all in the service of pushing forward this conspiracy 175 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: to stop the construction of this police training facility. So 176 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: there's a lot of like kind of like a like 177 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: random almost aseni and stuff in there that that they're 178 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: that they're eluding is is a quote unquote an overt 179 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: act in furtherance of the conspiracy. You know, anything from 180 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: like buying glue or buying like food supplies, and they're 181 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,199 Speaker 1: they're including or or things like like like writing your 182 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: name as Aca B. They're they're they're including that as 183 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: as as as an as an overt act in furtherance 184 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: of the conspiracy, which is is kind of silly. It 185 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 1: doesn't make very much sense. But like these also these 186 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: is this is like a very serious case as well though, 187 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: because this is like you know, the people, people you know, 188 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: facing twenty years in prison on top of like the 189 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: domestic terrorism charges. Well, uh, do you know what else 190 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: is a overt act in furtherance of a conspiracy? It 191 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: is the the uh, the advertising that allows us to 192 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: continue this show. It's all, it's all, it's all all 193 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: part of the plan. So yes, every every single ad 194 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: is a co conspirator. So take that, Ronald reichen Coin. Okay, 195 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,599 Speaker 1: we are back. We could talk about more about the 196 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: actual indictment in a sec I do kind of want 197 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: to first talk about who are facing these charges, right, 198 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: because these are these are sixty one people, and it 199 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: looks like for for when I was looking through, one 200 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 1: of the first things that you noticed is like, oh, 201 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: they're mostly charging people who have already been charged before. 202 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,959 Speaker 1: There's not too many new people added. 203 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 2: To this case. 204 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: It's mostly people who've already been arrested and charged. Can 205 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: you can you kind of like talk about the scope 206 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: of these sixty one people who are included in this indictment. 207 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 2: Yes, So, as I was saying, the scope of Georgia 208 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,959 Speaker 2: RICO is extremely broad, and some of the criminal acts 209 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 2: that can serve as a predicate for charging RICO are 210 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 2: these extremely unremarkable acts that we would typically think of 211 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 2: as being very normal protest related behavior, and some of 212 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 2: them are things like domestic terrorism. And so I don't 213 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 2: think it is an accident that all of those people 214 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:29,719 Speaker 2: were charged with domestic terrorism in the beginning months of 215 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 2: this of this sort of push to overcharge the stock 216 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 2: Cup City activists. And in fact, I think one of 217 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 2: the things that tipped us off at that point that 218 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 2: RICO was in the pipeline was that people were being 219 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 2: charged with domestic terrorism, which is one of the predicate 220 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 2: offenses for RICO. And so many of the people who 221 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 2: are on this indictment are the people who were already 222 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 2: charged with domestic terrorism. They were overcharged domestic terrorism. In 223 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 2: my opinion, they were overcharged. I think the opinion of 224 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 2: most attorneys, they were overcharged. They were charged in that manner, 225 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 2: not because the allegations against them are serious. In fact, 226 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 2: if you look at the allegations in those domestic terrorism 227 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 2: indictments or they're not even indictments yet, most of them 228 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 2: in those domestic terrorism charges in the documents that are 229 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 2: associated with those arrests. The allegations are, you know, as 230 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 2: I said, these absolutely unremarkable garden variety sort of criminal 231 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 2: trespass allegations, by and large, the allegations against people, and 232 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 2: they include things that are absolutely lawful, like having mud 233 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: on your like having on your knees. Yes, yeah, so 234 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 2: a lot of the allegations. One of the things that's 235 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 2: remarkable about Rico, and frankly about the domestic terrorism stuff, 236 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 2: is that both of those statutes allow for the sort 237 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 2: of bootstrapping of one offense into a much more serious 238 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 2: offense if certain conditions are met. With respect to the 239 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 2: domestic terrorism statute, a very large number of garden variety 240 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: offenses like criminal trespassing can be transformed into domestic terrorism 241 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 2: if they are perceived to be essentially politically motivated. In 242 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 2: the case of So, what we have here is a 243 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 2: situation where a bunch of people got charged with domestic terrorism, 244 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 2: not because they were doing something really dramatic or violent, 245 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 2: but because whatever it was they were doing was perceived 246 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 2: as being an effort to influence public policy. So we 247 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 2: transformed a very minor offense into a very serious offense. 248 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 2: That serious offense then became the predicate offense for Rico, 249 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 2: which is an even more serious offense. 250 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, And from my understanding at least in terms of 251 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of the people in the 252 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: sixty one indictments are are the sixty one people in 253 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: in the indictment is from the arrests that happened at 254 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: the music festival last Castruch, and a lot of a lot, 255 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of those people were only 256 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: charged with domestic terrorism, which is interesting because usually domestic 257 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: terrorism in Georgia is like an enhancement charge. But lots 258 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: of the people weren't actually charged with any of the 259 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: other other charges. Yet the prosecutors just argued, because we're 260 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: charging with domestic terrorism, it's like inferred that they must 261 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: have done some other crimes that we haven't yet specified. 262 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: But in the way that works for the for the 263 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: Rico indictments, because I think you need to have already 264 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: had like like I think there's like a prerequisitive like 265 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: two other like felonious charges. What they did in the 266 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: in these reco charges is go back to the music 267 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: festival and break down every single thing that happened there 268 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: that they're alleged these people did as separate instances like 269 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: like planning to go to the place, you know, marching 270 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 1: to the place, being at the place, Like they broke 271 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: it down to have all these separate things so that 272 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: they could like shoehorn it into this Rico indictment. So 273 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: there's a lot of like a you know, revisionist history 274 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: going on here, very kind of different arguments than what 275 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: the actual like domestic terrorism of bond hearings had in 276 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: like a previous months. But yeah, there is at least 277 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: at least one person in the indictments who is new 278 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 1: I think. I think possibly a few others, but I 279 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: haven't quite checked, but there at least one person which 280 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 1: is a very interesting case. It's this it's this guy 281 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: who worked at the uh the Flock camera company who 282 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: I saw that who they are alleging was was passing 283 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: off information about where cameras were were were located. And 284 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: this is an extremely interesting case because he is he 285 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: is not included in any other previous charges, but that 286 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,360 Speaker 1: is at least one of the people who who are 287 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: kind of new additions to this indictment. One thing I 288 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: didn't want to mention because you've you've said you've you've 289 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 1: kind of mentioned a few times that these are these 290 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: are state level RICO charges. Those are kind of different 291 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: than federal reco charges. Do you want to kind of 292 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: get into like the difference between state and federal charges 293 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: and specifically how kind of the ones in Georgia at 294 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: work versus the the the federal rico that you know, 295 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 1: kind of inspired different states to kind of add their 296 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: own style of rico. 297 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 2: The big difference between the federal Rico Statute, which is 298 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 2: already extremely vague. I think Scalia said something like Scalia, 299 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: who is notoriously not far left, yeah, activist right, I'm 300 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 2: not a supporter of leftists, uh in in any meaningful way. 301 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 2: I think described the federal Rico statute I think as 302 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 2: intolerably vague. So the federal Rico Statute is already very 303 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 2: broad in its scope. It already does this thing that 304 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 2: we were discussing of pulling in many many people by 305 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: associating them with, you know, this criminal enterprise. The Georgia 306 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 2: Ricos statute is even more broad. The Georgia Ricos Statute 307 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 2: uses a lot of the same terms, right, a pattern 308 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 2: of racketeering activity. Right, It uses a lot of the 309 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 2: same concepts, but it defines those concepts in ways that 310 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 2: are even broader, even easier to apply. So I think 311 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 2: the thing that is significant about RICO is that similar 312 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 2: to like what we would see with conspiracy, where you know, 313 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 2: not every person involved in a conspiracy needs to have 314 00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 2: been participating in every single criminal instance of criminal conduct 315 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 2: in order to be implicated. 316 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: They don't even need to know the other co conspirators necessarily. 317 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 2: So that's the case in this indictment. Yes, yes, And 318 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 2: that is sometimes the case with maybe other reco indictments. 319 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 2: We certainly have seen some stuff like gang prosecutions where 320 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 2: the people involved don't know each other. Typically, I wouldn't 321 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 2: actually expect to see something that broad. When a prosecutor 322 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 2: wants to indict someone for engaging in criminal conduct, they 323 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 2: need to have individualized probable cause that that individual did 324 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 2: the crime one of the things, and you can't attribute 325 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 2: one person's behavior to another person. Rico offers a way 326 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 2: around that. 327 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: Yeah. 328 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 2: To use RICO in the way that the prosecutors in 329 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 2: Georgia are doing, among other things, enables them to engage 330 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 2: in a sort of collective punishment of people who they 331 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 2: perceive as holding certain ideologies and those people can be 332 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 2: engaged in lawful behavior and even in constitutionally protected behavior, 333 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 2: but if they can characterize any of that behavior as 334 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 2: having been an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy, 335 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 2: the fact that this person bought glue and was reimbursed 336 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 2: for the glue, yeah, can function to allow the prosecutor 337 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 2: to attribute all of this other criminal conduct to the 338 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 2: person who bought glue. 339 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: Basically, there people can you know, be hit with charges 340 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: that are being you know, alleged against actions of other people, 341 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: but they're all getting like roped up together, and they're 342 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: all facing these charges together, that's right. 343 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 2: So you can, like, the allegation that there is a 344 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:15,479 Speaker 2: criminal enterprise allows the prosecutors to associate various people and 345 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 2: various acts, even lawful acts, even constitutionally protected acts, with 346 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 2: attempting to further that criminal enterprise. And so the allegation 347 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 2: that this criminal enterprise exists is the fundamental core of 348 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: this indictment. Now you read the indictment and it's you know, 349 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 2: it's laughable. They're making these claims that you know, if 350 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 2: it weren't so serious, if this weren't so serious, we'd 351 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 2: all be rolling on the floor. The idea that mutual 352 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 2: aid is sinister. Yeah, it really to me. When I 353 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 2: read this indictment, I thought, Wow, this is just fascinating, 354 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 2: because what's happening here is that Georgia is saying the 355 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 2: quiet part out loud. We all know state repression is real. 356 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 2: We all know that the American legal system functions to 357 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 2: repressed assent, to impose prior restraints on First Amendment protected behavior, 358 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 2: to chill speech, to frighten people into submission. Right, we 359 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 2: understand that it is this coercive system, but there is 360 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 2: at least a sort of set of rules that purport 361 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 2: to prioritize fairness, that purport to value concepts of due process, 362 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,360 Speaker 2: and the Rico Statute, and in particular, the Reco Statute 363 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 2: as it is being used here, really functions so explicitly 364 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 2: to circumvent those rules, and that they're just they're not 365 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 2: even trying anymore. They're not even trying to pretend that 366 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 2: they care about individual probable cause, about the First Amendment, 367 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 2: and I would say, most frighteningly about the sixth Amendment, 368 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 2: which is the right to counsel, because they have gone 369 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 2: way beyond the pale in alleging that things like accessing 370 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 2: legal help, or accessing bail, or having legal observers or 371 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 2: you know, providing anti repression trainings are in some manner 372 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 2: sinister acts in furtherance of the conspiracy. And I am 373 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 2: really I don't know what will happen here. I really 374 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 2: can't begin to guess because I feel like it is 375 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 2: no longer possible for me to be surprised by the 376 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 2: nonsense that is coming out of this jurisdiction. I don't 377 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 2: know what will happen, but I am very, very curious 378 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 2: to see how the bench, how the judges in Georgia 379 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 2: respond to these allegations that involve making it part of 380 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 2: a criminal conspiracy to provide legal assistance. You know, this 381 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 2: is to me like one of the most concerning aspects 382 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 2: of this of this indictment, because as absurd as it is, 383 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 2: this could have very serious consequences. 384 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's something people have been talking about 385 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: with Atlanta for a while now, is that because of 386 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: how many you know, criminal cases there is around this 387 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,199 Speaker 1: top top city of like movement, whatever kind of the 388 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: result of those cases is going to be is going 389 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,479 Speaker 1: to set a very influential precedent for future for future 390 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 1: kind of eco defense campaigns, future, like any anything relating 391 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 1: to like like civil rights, you know, uh, police abolition, 392 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: or even even even things it's like benign is like 393 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: police reform, like any any kind of like any kind 394 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: of like grassroots activist, whatever kind of movement that's going 395 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: to happen in the future, is going to be affected 396 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 1: by how these cases go. Because not only as you know, 397 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: as as as you mentioned the you know, access to 398 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: bail fund being being in like access to to to 399 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: lawyers and and so and legal support is being used 400 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: in these reco charges, they were also alleging that by 401 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: having a you know, a bail fund number on your arm, 402 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: that was like, you know, that was evidence that that's 403 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: that this person intended to do crimes. And then you know, 404 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 1: as as evident in support of these domestic terrorism charges, 405 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 1: which is you know, an extremely dangerously legal claim to 406 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: to to be to be talking about and we've been 407 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 1: dealing with that in Atlanta for months now, and it's 408 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: you know, it's created this really chilling effect on the 409 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: ground that you know, you can you can be you know, 410 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: doing something as simples marching in the street and now 411 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: have not only like terrorism charges, having reco charges for 412 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,719 Speaker 1: stuff that is very clearly like First Amendment activity. 413 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it is really fascinating to me that 414 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 2: the law enforcement apparatus in Georgia is basically engaging in 415 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 2: really concerted state repression against this movement, which is highly 416 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 2: visible and highly legible as state repression. And then when 417 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 2: people respond appropriately by anticipating that they may be subject 418 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 2: to state repression by writing the jail support number on 419 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 2: their arm, not because they believe that they intend to 420 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 2: go out and do crimes, but because they know that 421 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 2: unremarkable acts of First Amendment protected conduct may result in 422 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 2: intense state repression. The law enforcement apparatus then responds by 423 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,719 Speaker 2: rationalizing their repression further. I mean, it's just we we 424 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 2: can see the sort of post hoc fallacy at work 425 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 2: in real time. It's not clear to me how how 426 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 2: much of the hypocrisy is self aware. Sure, you know 427 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 2: who else doesn't talk to cops? Products I cannot guarantee that. 428 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: I'm not sure these companies have the same standards that you. 429 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 2: And I have. They don't have shared values. 430 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: In terms of our willingness to to to talk with 431 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: the police, but they probably has. 432 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 2: Good defense lawyers. 433 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: Oh yes, all of all of these products and services 434 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: that supp this podcast definitely do have good defense layers, 435 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: that is true, So listen, listen to their important messages. 436 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 2: There is actually a part of this indictment that I 437 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 2: think deserves some very serious attention. Yeah. 438 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 439 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 2: So. Typically when we're thinking about RICO, we're thinking about 440 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: like white collar crime, yeah, and we're thinking about the 441 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 2: use of RECO to target groups that are doing unlawful 442 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 2: things in order to profit. This indictment seems to allege 443 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 2: that stop Coop City activists are raising money to do crime, 444 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 2: which is sort of the opposite, right, And as as 445 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,479 Speaker 2: we said, the crime that they're alleging, by and large 446 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 2: is really petty. There does seem to be one major 447 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 2: act of violence that is alleged in this indictment, and 448 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 2: I think we need to talk about it for a 449 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 2: second because that one alleged act of violence involves the 450 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 2: claim that Manuel torte Ghita Tehran, who was murdered by police, 451 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 2: was firing upon officers, and that is an incredibly central 452 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 2: claim in this indictment. That really is I think the 453 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 2: hook on which they're hanging a lot of the seriousness 454 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 2: of the allegations, and it is an incredibly disingenuous claim 455 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 2: and it's an incredibly dangerous claim. The evidence that they're 456 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,959 Speaker 2: using to support that claim is the statement of a 457 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 2: third party who was not present. It's a regrettable statement 458 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 2: that they've dug up from some group balance you know, 459 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: you know, thousands of miles away from the Atlanta Forest. Yes, 460 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 2: and there's no reason to credit that statement, but they 461 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 2: are using it to support this claim. That is, as 462 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 2: I said, it's it's critical to their argument, and it 463 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 2: is extremely disingenuous and it's extremely dangerous for for the 464 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 2: office of a prosecutor, which you know, for what it's worth, 465 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 2: is supposed to pursue justice and not convictions. It is 466 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 2: just intolerable to me that that somebody thought this was 467 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 2: an acceptable thing to put into a legal document. 468 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: And like you were talking about, how you know, they're 469 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: using statements from the scenes dot no Block subsite, which 470 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: anyone can submit to. There's no barrier of evidence for somebity. 471 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: And one interesting aspect that I didn't want to mention 472 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: is that for many of the kind of the little 473 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: like you know, accounts that they that they have in 474 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: their indictment, it's it's just referencing people you know, claiming 475 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: that they did crimes on on on this website. But 476 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: they're they're attributing the the either like co authorship of 477 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: these claims to the people at the Solidary Front, which 478 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: they've laid out no evidence in supporting that. That's it's 479 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: it's one of the more bizarre aspects of this indictment 480 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: because they make every they claim that every single post 481 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: on scenes is somehow the solidarity different people are in 482 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: part responsible for it, which is absolutely absurd that there's 483 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: there's They've they've produced nothing, no piece of evidence in 484 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: support of this claim. But that is one of the 485 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: core parts of their indictment because much much of what 486 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,479 Speaker 1: they're filling this indictment with, you know, talking about how 487 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: there's people do you know, doing crimes in San Francisco, 488 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: in in Portland, in like Minneapolis, like all across like 489 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: New York, all across the country. Right, this is part 490 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: of like the criminal conspiracy angle, which where very clearly 491 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: from my perspective, this is, you know, people all across 492 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: the country who care about a cause and so they're 493 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: doing something in their own city. It's there's there's no 494 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: there's no conspiracy to it. It's it's people taking their 495 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: own individual action, but they're they're trying, they're trying to 496 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: tie this into the solidarity fund in a very bizarre way. 497 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: You know, I'll be curious to see if they ever 498 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: try to prove evidence to support that claim in court. 499 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: But it's it's it's so laughable on the face. So 500 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: you're like, how can how can three people with with 501 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: a bail fund be be connected to these direct actions 502 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: happening all across the country. 503 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 2: Well, that's not literally what they're claiming though, right, And 504 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 2: I think this is this is where we see this 505 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 2: difference of perspective mattering a lot. The kind of distributed 506 00:33:52,320 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 2: network of autonomous solidarity that exists in this in stance 507 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 2: is something that is totally foreign to people who are 508 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 2: very used to having hierarchy in their lives. And you know, 509 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,839 Speaker 2: I think I've I've talked about this before, I think 510 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: on this show about the fact that when the far 511 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 2: right organizes, they organize in ways that are familiar to 512 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 2: police and prosecutors. Right, they organize in these very martial, 513 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 2: hierarchical ways where there's a clear chain of command. Now, 514 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 2: often their chain of command is very silly and involves 515 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 2: people having titles like dragons and wizards. But it's legible, right, 516 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,959 Speaker 2: It's legible to law enforcement. They understand there's someone in charge, 517 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,720 Speaker 2: and there's someone who answers to the person in charge. 518 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 2: Having a situation where we have a website that is unmoderated, 519 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 2: hosted by or supported by some group, and totally open 520 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 2: is something that I think, you know, police and prosecutors 521 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 2: might have a little bit of difficulty understanding, right, because 522 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 2: it's inconceivable to them that there is not a hierarchy, 523 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 2: that there's not a chain of command. It's like, you know, 524 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 2: I've actually had to drop footnotes in federal court filings 525 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 2: to explain to judges and to explain to opposing counsel 526 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 2: that Antifa is like a set of practices and not 527 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 2: a membership organization. Yes, right, And that trying to trying 528 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 2: to address Antifa as though it were an organization is 529 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 2: similar to trying to address the world of Batman fans, right, Like, 530 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 2: these are all people who might self identify in some way, 531 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 2: but you couldn't really identify them as a group, and 532 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,040 Speaker 2: they don't know each other, and they're not so I 533 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 2: ifying in any way for each other. 534 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and and as that relates to the no 535 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,479 Speaker 1: Blogs website, like it's they have they have not laid 536 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: out any evidence of who is running this website at 537 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: like who who is, who's operating it, who's hosting the servers, this, 538 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: none of that, None of that information is included in 539 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: the indictment. So the fact that they're trying to tie 540 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: this to Solidarity Fund in some ways is very is 541 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: very bizarre, just because there was like a link on 542 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: this website to donate to the Solidarity Fund, but any 543 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:31,759 Speaker 1: anyone could put a link there like that's like, I 544 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 1: I've put links to the to the Solidarity Fund in 545 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: the show notes of this podcast, right, I'm I'm not. 546 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: I'm not connected to them in any in any other way. 547 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: So just just having having that be this this kind 548 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: of aspect and even even if somehow Solidarity Fund were 549 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 1: run running running this whole website, which there's no evidence 550 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: they are, this feels like would also relate to like 551 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: a section two thirty case where people who host content 552 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: are not responsible for the actual like like they're they're 553 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: not like the a super big lot person. But this 554 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: usually applies to like social media sites and other places 555 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,240 Speaker 1: that host user generated content that the actual site itself 556 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 1: is not responsible for the user generated content that is 557 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: that is that is on the site. So it's anyway, 558 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: there's a whole bunch of you know, various various aspects 559 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: of this claim that don't don't make any sense to me. 560 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: But it's verically that they're trying to wrap all of 561 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: these no blogs posts in because that's the most that's 562 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: most like the evidence they have, which is extremely weak, 563 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's in some ways a good 564 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,360 Speaker 1: sign that all they have are these anonymous posts on 565 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: this website with no actual you know, idea of of 566 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: who made them or if they're true or not. But 567 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 1: that's the kind of that's the that's a lot of 568 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 1: a lot of what we're a lot of what they 569 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,240 Speaker 1: are going off or are just these website posts which. 570 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 2: A lot of these things. I don't even know if 571 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 2: they could make them admissible or under what theory, because 572 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 2: you know, we don't I don't know how they would 573 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 2: attribute them, right, I mean, look their public statements. I 574 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,320 Speaker 2: suppose they can bring them in just as public statements 575 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 2: that have been made. But the indictment is a mess, 576 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 2: and it is full of baffling claims, and unsupported claims 577 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 2: and claims that are demonstrably untrue. And nevertheless, I am 578 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 2: concerned that they may get somewhere. I don't know. I 579 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 2: don't practice in that jurisdiction. I'm not familiar. You know, 580 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 2: I've never defended a Rico case. Just to be clear, 581 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 2: you know, my wheelhouse is state repression. This is clearly that. 582 00:38:51,920 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 2: But I'm not tremendously familiar with litigating Rico and I'm 583 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 2: not you know, I would like to have some faith 584 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 2: in the legal system, but that faith has been worn 585 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 2: rather thin, and it has particularly been worn thin after watching, 586 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 2: you know, all of the abuses that have taken place 587 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 2: in this particular case. So, you know, I am really concerned. 588 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 2: I'm really concerned about the constitutionality of this statute and 589 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 2: of the domestic terrorism Statute. I am concerned about what 590 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 2: will happen in the courts if this proceeds. That said, 591 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:53,839 Speaker 2: it is entirely possible that this is like many many 592 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,800 Speaker 2: criminal cases that are brought in the context of protest movements. 593 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 2: It is highly possible that the primary thing motivating these 594 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:09,880 Speaker 2: cases is an effort to fractionate and drain and distract 595 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 2: and criminalize in the popular imagination, the movement to stop 596 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 2: cop City. They may be more interested in doing those 597 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,280 Speaker 2: things than they are in obtaining any convictions or proceeding 598 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:29,839 Speaker 2: to trial, and they may well succeed. You know, Look, 599 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 2: prosecution is a very very effective way to undermine movement solidarity, 600 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 2: and it's a very effective way to undermine popular support, 601 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 2: and it's a very effective way to make it impossible 602 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,359 Speaker 2: for people to actually focus on their movement goals because 603 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 2: they have to spend all of their time doing court 604 00:40:53,320 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 2: support and hiring lawyers and talking to me. Right when 605 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,359 Speaker 2: you're talking to me, you're probably not doing a lot 606 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 2: of public education or signature gathering or forest defense, right. Yeah. 607 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,840 Speaker 2: So you know, I guess what I would say is like, 608 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 2: this is a very clear example of state repression. It 609 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,280 Speaker 2: is extremely disruptive. I'm sure that the people who are 610 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:23,280 Speaker 2: included on this indictment have good reason to be quite anxious. 611 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 2: But that said, as I frequently remind people, state repression 612 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,439 Speaker 2: is not new. It exists all of the time, whether 613 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 2: or not we can see it. Right, even if we 614 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 2: didn't have this indictment, there would be other things happening, 615 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 2: and the most powerful weapon that the state has to 616 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 2: quell social movements is fear. And so the solution to 617 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 2: state repression is not self censorship, It is not staying home. 618 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 2: It is courage. 619 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: I think that's one of the more you know, interesting 620 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,399 Speaker 1: things about what's been happening in Atlanta the past two 621 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,800 Speaker 1: years is that every time the state has kind of 622 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: unveiled a new suppression tactic, right, it's whether it's like, 623 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: you know, increased raids and domestic terrorism charges, you know, 624 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 1: all of this, the solidarity fund raid, you know, trying 625 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:18,399 Speaker 1: to compromise people's ability to access bail funds. Every time 626 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,960 Speaker 1: there's been this this kind of new attempt, it has 627 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,759 Speaker 1: not caused people to back down. It's caused them to 628 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: actually like strengthen their solidarity with each other and and 629 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 1: and keep on and keep on going. I think that's 630 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 1: because all of these things have been seen from the 631 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: start as very clear tactics of state repression. It is 632 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: actually like catalyze people to actually like care for each 633 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,439 Speaker 1: other more and and and and recognize what is going 634 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 1: on so they can respond appropriately and and and not 635 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 1: let all of these all of these very like chilling tactics, 636 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,400 Speaker 1: but consciously make sure that you recognize that so that 637 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,239 Speaker 1: you don't let it really, like, you know, affect your 638 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: ability to continue continue doing the work that you feel 639 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,520 Speaker 1: is so important. And that's absolutely been one of the 640 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 1: things that's been very unique to watch in atlant To. 641 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: I think, uh, I think we've kind of covered lots 642 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,279 Speaker 1: of lots of what I wanted to get into. In 643 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,359 Speaker 1: case you have any other kind of things of note 644 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 1: or any like, any like resources you want to you 645 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,879 Speaker 1: want to point people towards. I think I think we'll 646 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:16,439 Speaker 1: be kind of close to wrapping up here. 647 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,360 Speaker 2: I do not do social media, so I have nothing 648 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:28,719 Speaker 2: to plug. I think the best resources that are out 649 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 2: there are the Center for Constitutional Rights has a zine 650 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 2: called if an Agent knox YEP and the Electronic Frontier 651 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 2: Foundation has a website called Surveillance Self Defense. And I 652 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 2: would recommend everyone familiarize themselves with both of those things. Uh. 653 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,760 Speaker 2: And for the love of God, in crypt your phone 654 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 2: and use signal. 655 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,120 Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, I love. 656 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:10,319 Speaker 2: The things about that indictment that was so that just 657 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,480 Speaker 2: made me roll my eyes until they popped out the 658 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:18,200 Speaker 2: back of my head. Was this casting of the use 659 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:25,400 Speaker 2: of encrypted technology as being extremely sinister, and I thought, 660 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 2: my god, you know, privacy is good. 661 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:33,400 Speaker 3: Actually and it's literally in the Constitution, like it is 662 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 3: in fact the case that the government is not entitled 663 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,160 Speaker 3: to all information about us, which is why we have 664 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 3: curtains and doors. 665 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 1: Yes, no, there's certainly many, many funny aspects of the 666 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,000 Speaker 1: Reco case. Hopefully, you know, people, this will all, you know, 667 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,279 Speaker 1: turn out to be not very legally viable and in 668 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,160 Speaker 1: ten years we can just laugh about it. But I mean, 669 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,359 Speaker 1: you know, it's people have been talking about, you know, 670 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,480 Speaker 1: the increased possibility for these types of grand juries. You 671 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 1: know this this this was a grand jury in the 672 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 1: case of these Reco indictments where they used special Agent 673 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,800 Speaker 1: Ryan Long of the GBI is their only witness. 674 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 2: I was noticing this. I've thought, my god, you only 675 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,759 Speaker 2: had one witness for all of these allegations. Well, no, 676 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:27,359 Speaker 2: wonder your indictment reads like it was. All right, Yes, 677 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,040 Speaker 2: I'm gonna stop talking shit about their indictment. 678 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,840 Speaker 1: While recognizing this is say repression, there is still, like 679 00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,520 Speaker 1: you know, an ongoing fear of grand juries and like 680 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,200 Speaker 1: further indictess in Atlanta because you have to it's is 681 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: very like life and death work, and this is a 682 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,919 Speaker 1: very life and death situation. So you know, very there's 683 00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,279 Speaker 1: very very clear uh practices like like using signal and 684 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 1: shutting the fuck up, which are very important when you 685 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 1: know when you're when you when you're doing this sort 686 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,359 Speaker 1: of thing. One other thing is that, uh, for for 687 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,879 Speaker 1: a while to the Solidarity Fund was rated. They were 688 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 1: not you know, taking in donations, they were outsourcing it 689 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,280 Speaker 1: to the net to the National Bill Fund. I believe 690 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,840 Speaker 1: they are they are back. The Solidarity Fund website is 691 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,879 Speaker 1: now once again taking taking donations to help people who 692 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,839 Speaker 1: are facing this repression, for legal support, for counsel, all 693 00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,799 Speaker 1: of all these sorts of things. And because this case 694 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 1: just keeps on growing, you know, they're they're always kind 695 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,880 Speaker 1: of needing, needing, needing more resources to get people lawyers, 696 00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,360 Speaker 1: to get people out of jail, all of these sorts 697 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,720 Speaker 1: of things. So you can you can once again donate 698 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,000 Speaker 1: at the at the at L solidarity dot org site. 699 00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,800 Speaker 1: So that is that is also kind of new news 700 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,000 Speaker 1: as of as of the past few, uh few weeks. 701 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 1: Thank you Moe for for talking about this. Uh, this 702 00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:47,680 Speaker 1: is very very enlightening. 703 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 2: It's my pleasure. And I guess the last thing I'll 704 00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,960 Speaker 2: say is I do as always want to remind all 705 00:46:55,000 --> 00:47:00,200 Speaker 2: of your listeners that there is never ever a compelling 706 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:05,200 Speaker 2: reason to speak to police or answer their questions before 707 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:09,320 Speaker 2: you talk to a lawyer. And so if please start 708 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,960 Speaker 2: asking you questions, the one and only thing you need 709 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,960 Speaker 2: to say is I am going to remain silent and 710 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,120 Speaker 2: I want to speak with my attorney. And if they 711 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,440 Speaker 2: knock on your door or call you on the phone, 712 00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 2: you can say, I am represented by counsel. Please leave 713 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,800 Speaker 2: your name and number and my lawyer will call you. Yep. 714 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 1: You can print up the little sheet that tells you 715 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,320 Speaker 1: what to say, put it, Put it next to your door, 716 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,440 Speaker 1: Join the Join the number of punk houses that have 717 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,080 Speaker 1: that have the sheet next to their next to their 718 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,240 Speaker 1: front door, the amendment sheet. 719 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:44,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 720 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:48,399 Speaker 1: Absolutely, well again, thank you, Birah, thank you for listening. 721 00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,160 Speaker 1: For everybody. Uh yeah, do not do not talk to cops. 722 00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,280 Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 723 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,200 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 724 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,319 Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 725 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,719 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 726 00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,440 Speaker 1: find sources for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at 727 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,720 Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com slash sources, thanks for listening.