1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Happy Casual Friday. I'm Tracy Vie 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. One of our episodes this 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 1: week was about Ignacious Sancho, and this is only tangentially 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: related what what I wrote that we recorded last week 6 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: before this one was the episode about why nobody talks 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,159 Speaker 1: about the Irish Slaves, And when we came out of 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: the studio from doing that, there were newly tweeted tweets 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: from Liam Hogan about that particular idea circulating a lot 10 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:44,639 Speaker 1: in Ireland UM in response to black people in Ireland 11 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: sharing their own experiences with racism, and I was thinking, 12 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: we have not really talked about like racial history or 13 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: or racism um like in the UK that much at 14 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,319 Speaker 1: all on the show, which like it led me out 15 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: at them like a couple of mental paths, was that 16 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: we had a soccer coach when I was in high 17 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: school who was from England who claimed that there was 18 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: no racism in England and that's not correct. But then 19 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: I was like, you know, what might be a good 20 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: thing to include is like something along those lines. It's 21 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: about like the UK in some way or Britain and 22 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: Ireland in some way. Um, and that that led me 23 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: to Ignacious Sancho. And then when I started doing the research, 24 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: I realized I started researching this episode in teen and 25 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: then I put it aside for some reason. I think 26 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: it might have been because I was afraid it was 27 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: gonna sound too similar to the one that we had 28 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: just done. Like when I started researching it on Ira 29 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: Frederick Aldridge, like I thought, oh, I think going into it, 30 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: I thought that there was going to be a lot 31 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: more about Ignacious Sancho's stage career, when really that was 32 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: like a sentence. Yeah, I UM, I have a folder 33 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: of those episodes that I have started and halted for 34 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: whatever reason. But there are times when I go back 35 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: it was like I did, like I have no recollection 36 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: of ever starting particular ones. Yeah. Occasionally when I go 37 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: clean up my bookmarks, UM, I find stuff like that 38 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: and I collected altogether. And so I have this, um 39 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: a folder called potential topics that is stuff that I 40 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: have started researching but have never gotten around to you 41 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: and looking at it right now, it actually has a 42 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: folder on the Black Sox scandal. So we've done that. 43 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: I can take that out of there. Um. And I 44 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,679 Speaker 1: also have one called probably Not, which is things that 45 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: I started researching thinking that it was gonna work and 46 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: then was like, oh, I don't think this is gonna 47 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: probably not. Yeah, that's very funny. Um. I really really 48 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: enjoyed this. I'm glad you picked this one one because 49 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: his story is so interesting too. I it's funny, And 50 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: I'm glad that you specifically talked about his writing style. 51 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 1: I love his writing style. I do too, like you 52 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: and I both have worked for long years as copy editor, 53 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: and we what's funny is that sometimes people, when they 54 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: email us will say, like, I'm nervous about emailing you 55 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: because I know you and a coup. I don't think 56 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: either of us cares particularly about whether or not your 57 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 1: punctuation and grammar are perfect. We've said it before, like 58 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 1: the longer you work as a copy editor, the more 59 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: you realize one that everybody makes errors and it's no 60 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: big deal. And to that, like, everybody has their own 61 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: style that reflects the way they speak often and ideally, like, 62 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: to me, that is a more enjoyable way to read 63 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: than like a perfectly constructed uh paragraph that where all 64 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: of the grammar is ideal and all of the punctuation 65 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: is is textbook perfect. UM one. It's just a little 66 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: more interesting to you get a better sense of who 67 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: the writer is. And so I really really like the 68 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: way he cuts his phrases with dashes in some places, 69 00:03:54,840 --> 00:04:00,839 Speaker 1: because you it it reads like casual speech, which I of, yeah, 70 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: And I mean if you just look at it, if 71 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: you look at a page of a letter that has 72 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: been rendered as you know, a type base, but punctuated 73 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: as he punctuated it, just glancing at it, it can 74 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: kind of look like somebody just like shook a shaker 75 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: of of dashes on. But I find it really really 76 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: fun to read UM, and I don't think I have 77 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: I've seen people make comparisons to various other letter writers 78 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 1: UM in the eighteenth and maybe nineteenth centuries. UM. But 79 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: what it reminded me of a little bit was was 80 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: actually Peep's diary in terms of like the random things 81 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: that he was observing around him in London, and sometimes 82 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: the tone that was just uh like rye and witty 83 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: sometimes like it's it's definitely not a complete one to 84 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: one comparison because it was letters rather than a diary, 85 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: But like I feel like it has some of the 86 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: same flavor from time to time. See that. It's very cool. 87 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: I very much enjoyed this one. Thank you again. I'm 88 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: glad you liked it. One of the subjects we talked 89 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: about this week was free Frank McCarter, which is in 90 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 1: some ways a wonderful story and in many ways a 91 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: heartbreaking story because you want to cheer for him because 92 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 1: he overcame so much, but it sucks that he had 93 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: to overcome so much. Yeah, he had to overcome all that. 94 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: And then also, like we said in the episode very briefly, like, 95 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: there's also the part that we did not really get into, 96 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: which is like the exploitation of indigenous people and the 97 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: land that they were living on. Because anytime we talked 98 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: about somebody buying land from the government, that's what we're 99 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: talking about. Yeah, that's that's how the government got it. 100 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 1: You mentioned too at the end of the episode, the 101 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: really difficult topic of of sometimes people who were enslaved 102 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: and even after they had gained their freedom, had to 103 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: kind of buy into that system that was enslaving people 104 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: in the first place in order to make a difference, 105 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 1: which is a really stinky paradox to be in and 106 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: like the part of it when I was researching that 107 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: really struck me in regards to that, and that really 108 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: broke my heart was when he was getting ready to 109 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: move to Illinois but had to like make nice with 110 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: everybody who still enslaved his kids and be like, no, no, 111 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: I promise you, I promise you. I'm going to come 112 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: back and purchase their freedom. We're good, right, Like he 113 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: had to completely reassure the people who held his children 114 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: in such an awful situation that he was trustworthy, and 115 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: it yea makes me like angry, cry and clench my fist. 116 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: I want to punch things. Yeah, yeah, he he really was, 117 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: like he was having to not only save up the 118 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: money to do this, but also like plague hate and 119 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: manage the feelings of white people. Uh huh. There is 120 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: a part of me, though, that really really loves the 121 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: idea that all of these people thought he could do 122 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: what he wanted to do in saving up this money, 123 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: in securing his family's freedom. And I just sort of 124 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: wish like we could get a snapshot of their faces 125 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: when they realized that they had put every obstacle in 126 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: his path and he still was like, Okay, good, I'm 127 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: ready to make this transaction. Now, um, uh, that's just 128 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: a little a little historical schadenfreude for me. Uh yeah. 129 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: So in your research, did you find anything regarding his 130 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: his sort of thinking behind establishing New Philadelphia as an 131 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: integrated community. Um, there really isn't. That is the trick 132 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: with Frank mccorder is that he was not, to the 133 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: best of our knowledge, like keeping a diary. His internal 134 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: thoughts were not really recorded. Um, even as he was 135 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: running the community, there's not a lot of documentation about 136 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: his point of view as a leader. I think it 137 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: was one of those cases where one because of the 138 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: nature of the community he had lived in from the 139 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: time he was eighteen in Kentucky, which obviously was a 140 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: slave state. There are a lot of histories that talk 141 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: about the fact that even though it was a slave 142 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: state and obviously there is an imbalance of power, there 143 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: was a certain a different sort of relationship in some 144 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: of these frontier areas that were small communities where uh, 145 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: some you kind of had to rely on each other 146 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: enough that some of those boundaries got a little blurrier um, 147 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: which is I think evidenced in the fact that like 148 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: he was left behind by the person who enslaved him 149 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: to run things and was trusted to run things, which 150 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: also meant that that mcquarter was trusting Frank to handle 151 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: things like business transactions with white people at that point 152 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: on behalf of him. So there is clearly some level 153 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: of that being a normal state of affairs for Frank, 154 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,839 Speaker 1: I think. And so when he started selling plots of land, 155 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: I don't I would guess, and again speculation. I can't 156 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 1: imagine it was an issue for him one way or 157 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: the other. Really, he just wanted like a place where 158 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: he and his family could live, and everybody else who 159 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: wanted to come there that was okay with him because 160 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,719 Speaker 1: he saw them as all kind of just wanting a 161 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: new start. Again, that is my speculation, um, but I 162 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,319 Speaker 1: do think that's probably part of the result of being 163 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: in that frontier space where where he was. And again, 164 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: he was running a business completely illegally if you think 165 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: about it, his Saltpeter business, Like, he was not legally 166 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 1: allowed to have any sort of contract, so any of 167 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: that would have been not legal, even though everybody was 168 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: was entering into those sales transactions with him. Um, So 169 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: there is sort of some fuzziness in all of that 170 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: in terms of like one the rights and legal abilities 171 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: of an enslaved person at that time in that community 172 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: that I think informed his his later life behaviors and adventures. 173 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:18,959 Speaker 1: So yeah, that is our casual Friday hope. If you 174 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: work a regular work week that heading into the weekend, 175 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: you have a good one. If you would like to 176 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: write to us, you could do so at History Podcast 177 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: at i heart radio dot com. 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