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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. It doesn't come about

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Speaker 1: with me as a result of age. It is something

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Speaker 1: that has plagued me my entire life, and that is

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Speaker 1: a curiosity regarding places. I love to try to understand

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Speaker 1: the origin of places and the things that occupied a

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Speaker 1: particular space. I like to drive down the road, particularly

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Speaker 1: through old neighborhoods from New Orleans, as many of you

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Speaker 1: guys know, and there are a lot of old dwellings there.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes though, I am as fascinated by what is not

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Speaker 1: there as I am by what is there, because you're

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Speaker 1: left wondering if you have a space, let's say, for instance,

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Speaker 1: in an old neighborhood, what had occupied that space, what

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Speaker 1: lives were lived there? Every place does, in fact have

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Speaker 1: a story. Today on bodybags, we're going to step back

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Speaker 1: for a second to November of twenty twenty two, to

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Speaker 1: just off campus at the University of Idaho, where there

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Speaker 1: was a dwelling, an odd dwelling shaped in a bizarre

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Speaker 1: fashion because it had been added on to over the

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Speaker 1: years to accommodate students, and now in the present it

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Speaker 1: is no more. Today we're going to discuss the demolition

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Speaker 1: of the home or for University of Idaho students were murdered.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body backs here

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Speaker 1: we are. The house is gone. It's been called many things,

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Speaker 1: a house.

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Speaker 2: Of horrors, it was called.

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Speaker 1: Off campus housing, it was called the spot of a

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Speaker 1: multiple homicide. But it the dwelling, the physical structure exists

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Speaker 1: no longer.

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Speaker 2: I think that's a shame.

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Speaker 1: It really is.

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Speaker 3: Not for any preian interest or horror story thing. It's

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Speaker 3: just that on November thirteenth of twenty twenty two, Xana

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Speaker 3: kernodle Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan, and Kaylee Gonzalvez were murdered

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Speaker 3: inside this home. And we don't have a conviction of

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Speaker 3: the murderer yet. This is still a crime scene to me.

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Speaker 3: We haven't had a trial, and now they have removed

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Speaker 3: the opportunity for if I was a juror, I'd want

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Speaker 3: to go see the space. How do you tell the

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Speaker 3: story of what happened if you don't have the space, Joe,

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Speaker 3: do you expect me to use my imagination? We're not

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Speaker 3: all that good. Three D photos are fine, video is fine,

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Speaker 3: movies are fine, but they're not the same as seeing

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Speaker 3: it with your own two eyes, touching it with your

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Speaker 3: own two hands. I don't see how this makes any sense.

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Speaker 1: I don't either, you know, And I know, look, I

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Speaker 1: know the counter to this is going to be, well,

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Speaker 1: you don't understand. We've got the technology now that they

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Speaker 1: went in with, probably what's referred to as a Pharaoh

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Speaker 1: system FA r O, which is the electronic or digital

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Speaker 1: mapping system that's got the you know, the mirrors, and

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Speaker 1: it spins and it's taking thousands of images. But let

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Speaker 1: me back up just a second. You know, we don't

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Speaker 1: live that far apart. And I'll tell you what. I'll

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Speaker 1: go get in my car. We'll go half on gas

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Speaker 1: and half on food. All right, I'll come and pick

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Speaker 1: you up, and we're gonna make a drive. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: drive to We're gonna drive to Massachusetts. Okay, it's gonna

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Speaker 1: be kind of a long drive. But you know, you

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Speaker 1: and I we we like to yammor with one another.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, uh, And did you know that right now,

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Speaker 1: if we took the time, we could go hoping my

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Speaker 1: old jelopie and provided it would get us up there,

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Speaker 1: we could drive not just to Massachusetts, we could drive

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Speaker 1: to Fall River, Massachusetts, and I could take you right

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Speaker 1: now to the home where Andrew and Abby Borden were

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Speaker 1: killed allegedly by Lizzie Borden on August fourth, eighteen ninety two.

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Speaker 1: That structure is still standing. I could, I could take

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Speaker 1: you there right.

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Speaker 3: Lizzie Borden took an act, gave her mother forty one.

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Speaker 1: I saw what she'd done.

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Speaker 3: She gave her father forty one. I'm looking at it.

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Speaker 3: That's I had to look it up because I remember

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Speaker 3: them doing I remember as a child doing little rhymes

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Speaker 3: and things like that. And yet that was the horror

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Speaker 3: scene that we were all growing up to. I'm not

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Speaker 3: saying that it's funny that that happened. But okay, allegedly

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Speaker 3: did it not happen? Did they not get killed with

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Speaker 3: an axe?

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Speaker 1: They did get killed, But Lizzie was never convicted of it.

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Speaker 1: You know, she was convicted in the I think by

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Speaker 1: the public. Maybe she did. I have no idea, but

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Speaker 1: that physical structure.

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Speaker 3: Still there, and we could actually book a room, yeah

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Speaker 3: we could. They've turned it into a little B and B.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that something? And look, don't misconstrue what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that this should be some kind of

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Speaker 1: oddity a side show. You said it right, just a

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Speaker 1: moment ago about that this structure is gone forever and ever.

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Speaker 1: Amen that if you and I watched it, I have

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Speaker 1: to I have to admit I did. I watched. One

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Speaker 1: of my friends was covering this and she kind of

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Speaker 1: narrated the process and it had a I think it

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Speaker 1: was like a time lapse or something, and I watched

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Speaker 1: square foot by square foot of you know, they've they've

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Speaker 1: got the they've got the big equipment out there. They're

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Speaker 1: taking this thing down floor by floor, and it's taken

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Speaker 1: against against the protest of the families, right. They did

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Speaker 1: not want this to go away. Let me ask you this,

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Speaker 1: would you or would you not agree that there are

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Speaker 1: horrible homicides that occur in our country day in and

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Speaker 1: day out. I know you know this. You know it

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Speaker 1: better than I do, because you cover more of them,

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Speaker 1: because you work with Nancy so much. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: you this stuff. I don't know if my my fans

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Speaker 1: understand what this man does. But every single day he

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Speaker 1: sits and he studies, he studied. Can you imagine, folks,

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Speaker 1: if you if you've spent all of your time studying cases,

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Speaker 1: there are many cases that you guys never hear about.

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Speaker 1: But guess what, Dave Mack has to look at them.

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Speaker 1: He sees cases day in and day out. Let me

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Speaker 1: ask something day out of all these cases that you

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Speaker 1: cover in all of this horror that takes place across

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Speaker 1: the nation, across the world, in Nancy's case, because she

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Speaker 1: covers everything, But are they going around tearing down crime scenes?

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Speaker 2: Nope?

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Speaker 1: Are they going around tearing down physical structures all the time?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: I don't understand it. It just it doesn't. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: make sense to me.

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Speaker 3: Not when there's still a trial to go. I could

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Speaker 3: see some justification, Joe, if if there was damage to

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Speaker 3: the structure, or if it became some kind of macabre,

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Speaker 3: which this place. I don't doubt that it had become

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Speaker 3: a bit of a place that crime people would go

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Speaker 3: and look at. I don't doubt that. But I have

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Speaker 3: a problem with it because we don't have a trial.

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Speaker 3: We haven't had, it hasn't gone before. We don't know

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Speaker 3: what happened yet. We know what we think. But you

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Speaker 3: know what, Joe, we only know one side of it.

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Speaker 3: We only know the side that you and I have

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Speaker 3: been privy to, and you've studied it a lot. You've

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Speaker 3: talked about this a lot. I have too, and you

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Speaker 3: and I have both looked at a lot of material.

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Speaker 3: But you know what, we haven't heard everything. And I

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Speaker 3: think that they're doing a disservice to everybody when they

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Speaker 3: do this to the four people who are dead, to

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Speaker 3: the other two who were in that house the night that.

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Speaker 3: I still have a lot of questions. I'd like to

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Speaker 3: have them answer some questions, and I'd like to have

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Speaker 3: them walk me through where they were, but I can't now, No,

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Speaker 3: I can have them tell me where they were.

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Speaker 1: Look, we have no way of knowing, do we. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we truly don't. We have no way of knowing who

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Speaker 1: the jury members are going to be.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: It's out in the ether. I mean, there's there's not

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Speaker 1: been a pool that has been a symbol to even

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Speaker 1: select from. At this point in time. All we hear

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Speaker 1: is that it's going you know, we've heard it's going

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Speaker 1: to go to trial this summer. All right.

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Speaker 3: Now, if they found the knife, would they destroyed the knife?

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Speaker 1: Joe, that's an excellent question, because you know we got

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Speaker 1: pictures of it. No, No, we don't.

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Speaker 2: We don't know.

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Speaker 1: We've got the sheath that people have gone on and

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Speaker 1: on about. You know now for loath these many months

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Speaker 1: that that scene to me is just as valuable as

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Speaker 1: the to this point, at least the unfound knife or

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Speaker 1: the yet to be discovered knife. I'm trying to remain

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Speaker 1: hopeful in that. But yet you you want to get

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Speaker 1: rid of And I think the you is the big

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Speaker 1: the big part that you know who is the you?

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Speaker 1: Because we're hearing that both the prosecution and the defense

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Speaker 1: are in agreement over this. But we all know that

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Speaker 1: it's one thing to say that you're in agreement over it, okay, uh,

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Speaker 1: but anything can be argued after the fact. You know

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Speaker 1: that we weren't given an ample opportunity to do. I

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Speaker 1: still have a memory, Lord, I wish I could remember

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Speaker 1: the date of this because I've covered the sceink for

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Speaker 1: so long, this quadruple homicide. Let's let's re anchor ourselves

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Speaker 1: in that. Do you remember this where they had sent

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Speaker 1: the crime scene clean up group to the house and

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Speaker 1: it was around the same time and I can't remember

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Speaker 1: it was around the same time that Coburger, who is

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Speaker 1: alleged to have committed the homicides, was being arrested. I

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Speaker 1: think he may have still been was he still in

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania at that point in time, And they had said

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Speaker 1: that they were going to clean this place up, and

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Speaker 1: the trucks had pulled up to the door. They were

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Speaker 1: putting up like plastic over the entryway so they could

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Speaker 1: go in and like do whatever the heck it was

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Speaker 1: they were going to do in there, clean the thing up.

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Speaker 1: And his defense team at the time, the people that

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Speaker 1: were represented, said whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, We'll hold your

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Speaker 1: horses now, and they wound up being able to get

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Speaker 1: a team out there, you know, to to you know,

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Speaker 1: take a look around. I'm look, I'm not a fan

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Speaker 1: of Brian Coberger. What I'm saying is, you know what,

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Speaker 1: what I'm a fan of is trying to get the

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Speaker 1: jury in touch with with the reality of what happened there.

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Speaker 2: It was a three story building, Joe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. I love I love the saying and

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Speaker 1: UH that we say in UH forensics. Many times negative

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Speaker 1: findings are just as important as positive findings, and so

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Speaker 1: those things that you know, you you talk about it

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Speaker 1: being three story, We've got that basement level which some

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Speaker 1: people call the first floor. You know, the thing is

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Speaker 1: built into the side of a hill. You know what

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Speaker 1: would I'd be interested in knowing if I was a

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Speaker 1: jury member, if I was down on that first floor,

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Speaker 1: could I hear somebody up in the top floor yelling

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Speaker 1: or just talking normally? Because I got to tell you,

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Speaker 1: if I'm a jury member, I'm assuming if I were

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Speaker 1: selected for jury, or these people that are, I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: they've never been to this dwelling. So from an acoustic standpoint,

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Speaker 1: just that alone, I am hoping against hope Dave, that

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Speaker 1: the reason or the rationale for taking the structure down

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Speaker 1: didn't simply come down to the idea that it may

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Speaker 1: have made certain people uncomfortable. It comes down to perspective.

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Speaker 1: We were chatting this second ago about those things that

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Speaker 1: are lost. I still have this memory of and they

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Speaker 1: were onto something too. I think I still have this

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Speaker 1: memory of a reporter walking up to guys in what

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Speaker 1: we used to refer to as either ray jackets or

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Speaker 1: warrant jackets, which are you know, those kind of shells

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Speaker 1: that you see the police officers where it's generally got

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Speaker 1: a panel on the back that identifies who you are.

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Speaker 1: They were out in the brush line, which is to

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Speaker 1: the rear of this structure where the sliders are looking

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Speaker 1: out over that field that kind of gently rose up

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Speaker 1: behind it, and you could see there's like a little

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Speaker 1: tree line back there. And these guys were there was

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Speaker 1: a reporter that walked up and they were in daylight,

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Speaker 1: walked up to these fellows that were kind of perched,

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Speaker 1: and they were squatting, and they were looking through the

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Speaker 1: brush back toward that house. And I know what they

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Speaker 1: were doing. They were trying to get an idea. It's

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Speaker 1: not that they were looking for evidence on the ground

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Speaker 1: and wasn't that kind of thing. It's like they were

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Speaker 1: trying to perceive what their feeling division was allowing them

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Speaker 1: to see back toward the house, looking from that brush

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Speaker 1: line that's gone, that's gone. I mean, I guess you

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Speaker 1: could call those guys up and say, hey, you know,

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Speaker 1: agent so and so, I want you to testify to

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Speaker 1: what you saw. What was your perception up there? What

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Speaker 1: was your opinion about what you could see? Well, first off,

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Speaker 1: they can't render an opinion about it, and their recollection.

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Speaker 1: I don't really care about.

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Speaker 3: No, because it's perceived. It's there, it's not mine, it's

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Speaker 3: their perspective. It's like d lee Plaza, right, if I

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Speaker 3: was to go and stand on the grassy knoll behind

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Speaker 3: the fence where I believe there was a shooter position

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Speaker 3: to shoot the president of the United States, if that's

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Speaker 3: you believe, you can go there. You can go to

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Speaker 3: the sixth floor of the school book depository, yes.

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Speaker 1: You can, and that's not a great view, but you

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Speaker 1: can go up and you can look through that window.

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Speaker 1: I've done it. It didn't tear it down, but that structure

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Speaker 1: still standing. Okay. And I'm not trying to equate the president.

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Speaker 1: It's assassination. I'm glad you brought this up because acoustics

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Speaker 1: comes into that as well. I'm not trying to equate

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Speaker 1: that with this quadruple homicide that happened in Idaho. But

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Speaker 1: your point is well taken here.

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Speaker 2: I just don't see how you can tear down the evidence.

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Speaker 1: I don't either. And you know, going back to I

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Speaker 1: think one of the most poignant days I've ever been

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Speaker 1: on air was that day where that jury was taken

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Speaker 1: out to Parkland High School. I'll never forget they had

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Speaker 1: they taking the jury out there, And keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: this is years after the fact. They had put up

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Speaker 1: chain link fens all around this building and granted it's

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Speaker 1: a government structure, but hey, you know what that house

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Speaker 1: in Idaho's government structure now too, because why the state

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Speaker 1: university have complete and total control over the thing. But

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Speaker 1: you know, when they took those jury members out to Parkland.

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Speaker 1: You know how though, and I know you do because

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Speaker 1: you've been at this a long time. They choose pool

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Speaker 1: reporters that will go. You know, they just don't let

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Speaker 1: not every single reporter can go. So they choose who's

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Speaker 1: going to go. They'll be like a videographer person, I guess,

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Speaker 1: like you know, like a print journalist, you know what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying. And those journalists I remember that comments from them,

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Speaker 1: and it was it was gut wrenching to hear what

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Speaker 1: they had said because they they went back to that

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Speaker 1: moment in time when that person went into that high

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Speaker 1: school and slaughtered all of those kids, and it transported

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Speaker 1: that the jury members back to that point in time.

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Speaker 1: The game was over at that point, because you know,

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Speaker 1: they were able, they were able to kind of connect

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Speaker 1: the reality of that moment frozen in time. There was

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Speaker 1: dried blood still on the ground. They had. I'll never

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Speaker 1: forget one of the things because it was on Valentine's Day.

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Speaker 1: You remember they had dried flowers that were kind of

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Speaker 1: falling apart, laying their teddy bears, you know, with like

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Speaker 1: little Valentine's hearts on them, you know, like kids give

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Speaker 1: one another, you know, a Valentine's Day. This stuff was

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Speaker 1: still there, but it was frozen in time, and you

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Speaker 1: get this kind of relationship, physical relationship. And I mean

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Speaker 1: that in the sense of what you're viewing, what you're hearing,

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Speaker 1: even what you're smelling, you know, at that point in time,

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Speaker 1: and it all feeds back into it. Now, I will

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Speaker 1: state this, it's obvious that every single homicide I have

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Speaker 1: ever worked, we did not take Jerry's back out to scenes.

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Speaker 1: It's the rare ones. But I think I could probably

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Speaker 1: convince you to agree with me that this is a

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Speaker 1: rare one. This is something where you've got a major

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Speaker 1: loss of life event in a small little town. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot riding on this that you want to make

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Speaker 1: sure that you get right, both for not just prosecution,

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Speaker 1: but for the defense as well. And it's not there anymore.

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Speaker 3: You have to account for entry into the building, you

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Speaker 3: have to account for movement inside the building, moving from

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Speaker 3: room to room, upstairs, downstairs, down a hallway, seeing a

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Speaker 3: person you have, the activity, and how big the rooms are,

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Speaker 3: and what's taking place right now. We have some reporting

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Speaker 3: of what we were told happened with some of the victims,

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Speaker 3: whether they were able to fight back or not, whether

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Speaker 3: they're we don't still know. We know what we've been

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Speaker 3: told by certain family members who may have said things

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Speaker 3: that didn't need to come out yet. It'll come out

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Speaker 3: of trial, but we don't know yet. And the jury

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Speaker 3: that is seated is going to have to watch video

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Speaker 3: or to use their imagination now to decide how long

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Speaker 3: it takes to make these steps, How strong does one

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Speaker 3: have to Can one person truly contain this entire environment

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Speaker 3: in a very short window of time, moving up and

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Speaker 3: downstairs and by the way, actually having a live witness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, here's the thing. I'm fascinated by this. It

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Speaker 1: was stated early on that whoever had done this had

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Speaker 1: perpetrated this massacre. There's no other way to put it.

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Speaker 1: Had to be familiar. It's such a bizarre layout. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it really is. You and I both are former college students.

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Speaker 1: We've been to off campus housing, and you know how

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Speaker 1: weird some of that stuff is because you know, they

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Speaker 1: just kind of add on, they stick things. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's not like you're going out to I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it's not like you're going to standard neighborhood most of

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Speaker 1: the time, where everything makes sense and everything, you know,

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Speaker 1: it looks well ordered. Not you know, they add things

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Speaker 1: on because they're trying to get as many people into

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Speaker 1: a structure as they can to make money. And there's

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Speaker 1: nothing wrong with that if your landl lord. But this thing,

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Speaker 1: you gotta you gotta admit it's bizarre. You know. You

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Speaker 1: got essentially two main entrances for this thing. You got

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Speaker 1: one on the lower that's built into this to the

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Speaker 1: bank where you're walking into the basement, backed by the

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Speaker 1: parking pad, and you got these sliders up there, you've

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Speaker 1: got the windows. How is it that you're gonna this thing?

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Speaker 1: When I when I saw Dave and I saw some

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Speaker 1: of the the uh A schematics for you know, how

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Speaker 1: the whole thing, the floor plan rather it is a

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Speaker 1: better way to put it, how it's all laid out,

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Speaker 1: It looks it kind of looked like a maze, like

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Speaker 1: you know, and and not just that, how are you

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Speaker 1: gonna you're talking about something that this is occurring in

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Speaker 1: the wee hours, so it's got to be dark in

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Speaker 1: the dark. You know, how are you going to navigate

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Speaker 1: this environment in the darkness with these weird twisting turns?

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Speaker 1: And from a jury perspective, that's valuable information. How powerful

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Speaker 1: would it be to take a jury out to that

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Speaker 1: location as a matter of fact, from a let's just

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Speaker 1: argue for the defense for a second. Let's just say, look,

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Speaker 1: how do my client do this? You know he's never

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Speaker 1: been in the building before. Look, you know we're going

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Speaker 1: to turn the lights off now, ladies and gentlemen. Now

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Speaker 1: let's try to make our way up the stairs and

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Speaker 1: try to figure out how easy or difficult this would

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Speaker 1: be to facilitate this. I'm not saying that they would

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Speaker 1: do that, but even if they wanted to, they can't

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Speaker 1: do it now.

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Speaker 3: And here's the other part, Joe, imagine this talking about

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Speaker 3: evidence that they find in the building, which we know

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Speaker 3: they have found some we know they have found DNA,

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Speaker 3: we know where they have found other things inside this

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Speaker 3: building that is going to come up.

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Speaker 1: You think about it from the perspective of the perception

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Speaker 1: of whoever was still housed in the dwelling after these

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Speaker 1: when these events were going on, and if they were

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Speaker 1: an ear witness to these events, how could they not

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Speaker 1: have heard something? And again that opportunity is gone because

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Speaker 1: you don't have have well, first off, you don't have

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Speaker 1: there's no way to even perceive it at this point

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Speaker 1: in time. There's no way to appreciate the idea of

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Speaker 1: I think. And this goes to distribution of blood in particular,

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Speaker 1: because one of the things that we do know day

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Speaker 1: that was stated early on and I can't remember if

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Speaker 1: it was the corner who I have a whole other

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Speaker 1: set of issues with, because they were talking early on

379
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Speaker 1: about this against you know, they were not supposed to

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Speaker 1: be speaking out of turn here they were going they

381
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Speaker 1: were making these comments, you know, which was shocking to

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Speaker 1: me early on. We do know according to them that

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Speaker 1: this is a very bloody scene. How do you make

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Speaker 1: it through here without deposition of blood in other locations?

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Speaker 1: Because if you're walking through a location that is you know,

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Speaker 1: this is my I'm just inserting this word base in blood.

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Speaker 1: If you're going in and checking out, how is it

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Speaker 1: that you're not tracking trace evidence around? Why is it

389
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Speaker 1: that there's no other evidence that can point back to

390
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Speaker 1: an individual? And this goes to I'm not arguing for

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Speaker 1: the accused here. What I am saying, though, is that

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Speaker 1: for anybody that is looking to defend someone, the fact

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Speaker 1: that you can argue in a manner that could do

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Speaker 1: that could greatly benefit your case, because you know what,

395
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Speaker 1: when there is nothing that you can turn back to,

396
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Speaker 1: there's always the possibility of planning to see for reasonable doubt.

397
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Speaker 1: I think that it's important that we look at I

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Speaker 1: would say three areas that I hope that they have

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Speaker 1: effectively documented relative to how they're going to play this

400
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Speaker 1: narrative out absent the home now, because you know, look,

401
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Speaker 1: it's one thing if you and I are in a

402
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Speaker 1: meeting day and I've got a way to illustrate a

403
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Speaker 1: meeting where you can visually see it, and a lot

404
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Speaker 1: of it goes to what kind of learner you are?

405
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Speaker 1: You know, my wife is always thrown around the term

406
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Speaker 1: that she's a kinesthetic learner, which she you know, hands

407
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Speaker 1: on that sort of stuff. But you know, if you're

408
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Speaker 1: a visual learner, you know, I think that we've effectively

409
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Speaker 1: argued the position here that that opportunity is gone. So

410
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Speaker 1: what did you do you being the authorities, what did

411
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Speaker 1: you do at the scene before the place was torn down,

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Speaker 1: to document the place in totality so that you're going

413
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Speaker 1: to take this and present it to the jury. I

414
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Speaker 1: actually had one person that came to me and said, well,

415
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Speaker 1: the FBI is talking about completely restructuring or or doing

416
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Speaker 1: uh mocking, mocking this building out and recreating the thing.

417
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Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, really that that's that's what they're going

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Speaker 1: to do. They're going to do it digitally. Is that

419
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Speaker 1: what you're talking about? Well, you maybe you can do

420
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Speaker 1: that digitally, maybe it'd be wonderful. But I tell you this,

421
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Speaker 1: if if you think for two seconds this thing is

422
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Speaker 1: going to be like the Holid deck on the Star

423
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Speaker 1: trek Uss Enterprise, you're going to be sadly disappointed because

424
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Speaker 1: it's not going to be like that. You're going to

425
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Speaker 1: lose all sense of relationship between things. And so I

426
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Speaker 1: think that we have to first off, understand we've talked

427
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Speaker 1: about sound, how to sound travel through a structure? How

428
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Speaker 1: are you going to document that? To entertain possibilities of

429
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Speaker 1: what could and could not have been heard? We have

430
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Speaker 1: to think about timing relative to how long would it

431
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Speaker 1: take from one point from the starting point to make

432
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Speaker 1: entry into the home. If in fact, and this is

433
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: a big if because we don't know where the sliders open.

434
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 1: Did the perpetrator make entry through the sliders? Was there

435
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: some other way that they made entry? You know, we

436
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 1: talked about the food delivery that was made to Miss Kernodle.

437
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 1: How do we know that that didn't play a part

438
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: in this because that's in a different location than say,

439
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: for instance, where the sliders are. And then from sliders,

440
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: how do you make your way through the house? How

441
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 1: is it possible? And then I think one of the

442
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: things that really stands out to me, you know how

443
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: I was mentioned Parkland just a moment ago, we had

444
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: they had literally left that scene frozen in time with

445
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: the distribution of blood and all those sorts of things

446
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 1: we're talking about out the deaths of these four young

447
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 1: people in their bedrooms, and this goes to the dynamics

448
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: of blood distribution that's not going to be there if

449
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: there was blood stains on the wall, for instance, and

450
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 1: their dynamic blood stains, which I mean, we're talking about

451
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 1: everything from cast off where you're you know, you think

452
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: about dipping a paint brush in a bucket of painting

453
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: and throwing it against the wall. That's how it happens.

454
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: If you take a sharp instrument, dip it in blood

455
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 1: and kind of cast it off as you're stabbing or

456
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: on the ceiling, that's gone arterial spray. If you've clipped

457
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: an artery and that spraying on the wall, well, where

458
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 1: is that in relation to where the body was found?

459
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 1: And can you connect those two things? And then you

460
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: have this issue of transfer blood. Well, if you're talking

461
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: about an individual that is placing their hands and you're

462
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: going to have commingled blood everywhere, commingle which means you've

463
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: got four victims, you're essentially mixing this blood together as

464
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,199
Speaker 1: you're going through this process. I talked about this early on,

465
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 1: where whoever has the least amount of transferred DNA to

466
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 1: their body is probably going to be the first victim. Okay,

467
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: So if you have victim a that has little or

468
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: no DNA from another person in the house, say they're

469
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 1: on two different floors, you're using the same weapon. Assuming

470
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: that they're using the same weapon, you're not going to

471
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: be able to appreciate appreciate the dynamics of how that

472
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: blood issued forth from the victims. Are they going to

473
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: take the mattresses from the beds and bring them into

474
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: the courtroom. That has happened before, That has absolutely happened before.

475
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: Items from the bedroom. Is that gonna okay, Well, let's

476
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: say that you do bring in the headboard from a

477
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: bed and you've got what appears to be blood that

478
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: has been capt off on it. Okay, you can bring

479
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:02,719
Speaker 1: that in there.

480
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 2: You're taking that out of content, you are.

481
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: Taking that out of context and look understanding they would

482
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: have had to have removed the headboard and examined it

483
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: in the lab. But if you don't have a way

484
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: a facsimile to demonstrate that, not just the fact simile,

485
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: but the physical structure to say, okay, the bed was

486
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: positioned right here, do you understand, and it's right here

487
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: in this position we have if you reflect back, we

488
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: showed you the images here, the images again of the

489
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: bed and how it's demonstrated are dispersed on the head

490
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: of the headboard of the bed and it's on the

491
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: wall adjacent to it. This is what our expert beliefs happened. Well,

492
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: you can't do that. You can't go back to that.

493
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: And that's just the dynamic distribution of the blood. What

494
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: about if we've got passive where people are putting you know,

495
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: you're lifting your body, you're transferring blood from your hands

496
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: because you're trying to leverage your body weight to get

497
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: out of a place. What about passive dripping, Well, what

498
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: they're saying is that same weapon involved, well, the same

499
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: weapon involved. If they start on the top floor come

500
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: down the stairs, are they dripping blood from the tip

501
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: of the knife blade or off of their person onto

502
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: the carpeted surface of the staircase. And it leads into

503
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: where Ethan and Miss kernodle wre is that that's gone

504
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: in totality as well. You're not going to be able

505
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: to appreciate that. Is there a moment where more blood

506
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: was dripped in one location, like someone's pausing to stop

507
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: to think that they hear something, and then they progress

508
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: on and then another attack initiates. Oh that's gone. You

509
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: don't have that. You don't have it at all.

510
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 3: When you and I talked about this earlier, I brought

511
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 3: up the case of Jeffrey McDonald, the Yeah Army Green

512
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 3: Beret doctor Fatsion.

513
00:30:58,280 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there you go.

514
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 3: February nineteen, he claimed a group of hippies came into

515
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 3: his house on base in Fayetville, North Carolina and five

516
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 3: point forty four Castle Drive. The reason I know this

517
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,479
Speaker 3: because I watched the trial very carefully. When it happened

518
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 3: nine years after the fact. February nineteen seventy was only

519
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 3: months after the Manson murders, the Tayla Bianca murders. Oh,

520
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 3: and so there was a lot of talk about this,

521
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 3: and many people believe that Jeffrey McDonald got his idea

522
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 3: of the hippies from those murders.

523
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: Right.

524
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 3: Jeffery McDonald's pregnant wife, Colette, and his two young daughters,

525
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 3: Kimmy and Christy, were both were all three murdered in

526
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 3: that house. A pregnant mother and her two small children

527
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 3: were murdered in that home, murdered with an ice pick.

528
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 3: There was blood everywhere, and that crime scene stood for

529
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 3: nine years, Joe, until they could have a trial. They

530
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 3: had already gone through the military process, an Article thirty

531
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 3: two hearing where they discovered that, okay, McDonald maybe didn't

532
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 3: do it. We're not going to further prosecute this. And

533
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 3: it was only brought up in criminal court because of

534
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 3: Colette's stepfather, Freddy Kasab, pushing it, and it did go

535
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 3: to trial. In North Carolina, and Jeffrey McDonald was found

536
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 3: guilty of murdering his pregnant wife and his two young daughters.

537
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 3: But one of the things that happened it was nine

538
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 3: years later. He was a successful doctor in southern California.

539
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,959
Speaker 3: He was a good looking young guy. People couldn't believe

540
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 3: this wonderful, nice man could have ever done. A Green

541
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 3: Beret doctor wouldn't kill his family. But the jury, they

542
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 3: were able to go back to that house nine years

543
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 3: after the murder. They were able to walk into this

544
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 3: home to look at the size of it and to imagine,

545
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,479
Speaker 3: could hippies have really come in here and done this

546
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 3: in this small of a space. Neighbors are all very

547
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 3: close together, there's patrols going by all the time, the noise,

548
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 3: somebody would have heard it. They were able to go

549
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 3: through that because the crime scene was still in existence.

550
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 3: They were able to see it. No pictures, no drawings.

551
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 3: Pictures and drawings, by the way, are there. They have

552
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 3: those two. But they actually got to see it with

553
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 3: their own eyes. And I think it mattered.

554
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: It does matter, and it's powerful stuff. It's powerful stuff.

555
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: Anytime you can introduce the jury into an environment like this,

556
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: so that they begin to appreciate form and function of

557
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: a structure where an event took place. You know, if

558
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,479
Speaker 1: you have a mass homicide that takes place in an

559
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: open field, it's really hard to appreciate the dynamics of that.

560
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,479
Speaker 1: It can happen anywhere, you know. It's like, you know,

561
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: if you go to visit a Civil War battlefield, even

562
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: if you go to Gettysburg. You know, you believe what

563
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: they tell you about what happened there, but it's so vast,

564
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: it's so broad that you can't really understand it in

565
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: a way that walking into a home where lives have

566
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: been lived, where parties were had, where people got to

567
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: know one another and to be friends, that's gone. It's

568
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: gone forever and ever. And that goes to the heart

569
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,720
Speaker 1: of this case, because this case was about the relationships

570
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 1: that these people, these young people had developed wild college

571
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: students and the environment that they were in in Idaho,

572
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: living and learning together. I just hope, I just hope

573
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 1: that the right decision has been made. I'm Joseph Scott

574
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Body Bags