1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shonda 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. I have 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: something to say, and I wanted to make sure that 4 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: I was saying it for real, you know, and using 5 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: my voice in service. I was like, Oh, it's not 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: just overcoming adversity, it's healing my trauma through my art, 7 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 1: which is what I've been doing my entire life. It's 8 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: the only reason why I'm alive. It really is. Hello, everyone, 9 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. I'm Laverne Cox. So 10 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: earlier this year, I was on the show The View, 11 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: and I was talking about this podcast and the next 12 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: day I got a message from a friend saying that 13 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: Billy Porter wanted to call me, and um, they gave 14 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: me Billy's number. I call Billy. I think he was 15 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: on set somewhere working and he's like, I saw you 16 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: on the View and you were talking about attachment theory 17 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: and I was like, I'm working on this and let 18 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: me just reach out to her, and I'm so proud 19 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: of you. It was just he was just really sweet 20 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: and we talked about his journey and the work that 21 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: he's doing to heal some of his trauma, and it 22 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: was just a beautiful conversation. And I was like, what, 23 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: you want to come on the podcast and talk about 24 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: some of this stuff and he said absolutely. Um. I 25 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: was like, I know you have a book coming out 26 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 1: later this year, right, he was like, absolutely, let's do it, 27 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: and so here we are. Billy Porter is an actor, singer, director, composer, 28 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: and playwright from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. He is the winner of 29 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: the two thousand nineteen Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Lead 30 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: Actor in a Drama Series for his portrayal of Praytel Impose. 31 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: He is the first openly gay black man to be 32 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: nominated for and win any lead acting category at the Emmy's. 33 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: Porter is also the winner of Tony Grammy, Drama Desk 34 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: and Outer Critics Circle Awards for his groundbreaking performances Lola 35 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: and Kinky Boots. As a director, among other shows, Porter 36 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: helm the revival of Susan Laurie Parks's Top Dog Underdog 37 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: at Boston's Huntington's Theater, where he was awarded the Elliott 38 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: Norton Award for Best Director. He is the author of 39 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: the new memoir Unprotected, a story of trauma and healing 40 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: please enjoy my conversation with Billy Porter. Hello, Billy Porter, 41 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling today? I 42 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: am really really good. Right now. I'm in downtown Pittsburgh. 43 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: I am in pre production to direct my very first 44 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: feature film. What's it called. It's called what If? What? Yes? 45 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: And you know, it's a really beautiful script. It follows 46 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: an African American trans high school girl. It's a coming 47 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: of age story, sort of in the genre of the 48 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: old John Hugh movies, which I'm obsessed with. Yes, So 49 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,399 Speaker 1: it's sort of like I'm trying to bring that genre back, 50 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: you know, populated with characters with what the world looks 51 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: like today, you know, because coming up in that time, 52 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: you know, all those characters were white, so we all 53 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: had to superimpose ourselves onto those experiences. I'm really excited 54 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: about it because I personally believe the world is ready 55 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: for a different kind of trans narrative. You know. Having 56 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: been on Pose, you know that was a more traditional 57 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: narrative um that people are used to. And while I'm 58 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: not trans, I'm ready to see a new story. So 59 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: I know y'all are ready to see a new story. 60 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: You know, you've been posts has been such a groundbreaking show, 61 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: but you've worked very closely with transactors, writers, producers, directors 62 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: for the first time. I mean I I saw one 63 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: of your interviews when you said that even having been 64 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: you know, openly gay since nine five and living in 65 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: New York and knowing the girls, that you didn't even 66 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: have a full understanding of the depth of the struggle 67 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: that that we go through as trans women, particularly blacks, 68 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: black trans women. Can you talk a little bit about 69 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: since I mean, obviously there was something transformative for you, 70 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: you're still wanting to tell trans stories after pose well, 71 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: you know, being a black gay man in the eighties 72 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: in the middle of the Eights crisis, of course, had 73 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: its own complications and challenges and all of that. Everybody 74 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: was so focused on the crisis, which is understood. I 75 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 1: guess what I really didn't understand is how largely the 76 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: T and lgbt Q was missing from a lot of 77 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: the gay boys and gay women, you know, our consciousness. 78 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: And I feel like, as Maya Angelus says, when you 79 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: know better, you do better. It's incumbent upon me as 80 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: an ally to show up and transform my ally ship 81 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: into what's necessary to then transform the conversation. What does 82 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: that look like for you? Now? Obviously you're directing your 83 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: film about with the trans La character. Is that what 84 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: what it feels like for you that continuing to elevate 85 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 1: trans people and give them spaces to tell their stories. Yeah? 86 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: You know, I I am an artist who believes that 87 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: art is activism, whether you want it to be or not, 88 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: whether you're conscious of it or not. You know, I 89 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: got conscious a while ago. I was watching um Oprah 90 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: as we were all wont to do in the in 91 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: the time and in the day and still today, and 92 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: you know, she had on my Angelou and and yon 93 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: le Van sent and they were talking about service. They 94 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: were talking about when we can shift our life's intention 95 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: to service, everything else will work itself out. Do you 96 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: remember what year that was? Roughly? I don't, It was 97 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: at least twenty years ago. Yeah, because that for me, 98 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: when I was thinking about your story and and prepping 99 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: for this, it feels like that moment of intention, of 100 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: realizing you want to be a service and then leaving 101 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: Broadway feels like the turning point in your life. You 102 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: said in an interview that you were when you were 103 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: doing Greece that you felt like you were a clown. 104 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: But the decision to leave Broadway, the decision to say, 105 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: I'm being pigeonholed and I want to do something more 106 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: substantial as an artist. That's what I want to be 107 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: of service that I feel the calling is bigger than 108 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: this extreme singing is the phrase you used to describe 109 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: the singing. You had to live a life and go 110 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: through some things for all of that to, you know, 111 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: sort of fall into place. You know when I was 112 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: doing when I was preparing, I was like, we have 113 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: so much in common. We both basically had our big 114 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: breakout moments in our forties. You were a forty four 115 00:07:55,440 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: forty five when Kinky Boots happened. I was Kinky Boots, 116 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: and then I think forties seven for Pose. I was 117 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: forty when I booked Oranges in New Black and If 118 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: I was forty one when it premiered, and I was 119 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: forty two when I was in the cover of Time magazine. 120 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: So all of that and the beautiful thing about it 121 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: watching you sort of become an icon in a superstar 122 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: is that what I feel like. When it happened, we 123 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: were both working so hard and both like, okay, we 124 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: don't know how I don't know how long this is 125 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: gonna last. Let me make my coin, let me make 126 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: my mark, let me like say what I need to say. 127 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: Let me go and hustle like for death. Physically. I 128 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,839 Speaker 1: feel like that when I saw you, I was watching 129 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: the interview when you were from two thousand nineteen with 130 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: Ryan Murphy, and you were like, you know, you were 131 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: nominated for the Emmy and you had had this the 132 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: Oscar moment that like, you know, rocked the world, and 133 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: you were like in your husband's like, can you take 134 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: this in? Ryan's like can you take this in? And 135 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: like I'm working, he was wretching your play in Boston. 136 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: You were working, And I was like, that was me. 137 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: That was me when Orange happened in two thousand thirteen, 138 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden that people wanted me to 139 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: come to colleges and universities and I had to do 140 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: loan debt and I had gotten an eviction notice. You 141 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: had your bankruptcy moment in two thousand seven. I had 142 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: an eviction notice in twenty twelve, my second one in 143 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: two years. And how I was on a payment plan 144 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: when I both Orange a New Black to avoid eviction. 145 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 1: So when when the show premiered and people wanted me 146 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: to come to colleges. I'm like, okay, let me go, 147 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: let me go make it. I was on the road. 148 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: I was working so to pay off the decades where 149 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: you didn't have nothing and you were in debt for it. Yeah. Absolutely, 150 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: But also is so the hustle was there. But what 151 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: I think it's also so wonderful is that you always 152 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: foreground the actual work of being an artist. And I 153 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: think that is so important. That you're always talking about 154 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: doing the work, and not just we're overworking and working hard, 155 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: but doing the work of being an artist, the preparation, 156 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: the discipline that is required. And I really really loved 157 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: that about you. And obviously that started Carnegie Mellon. It did. 158 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: I was literally just gonna say, you know, Carnegie Mellon 159 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: was a very difficult period for me, and I loved 160 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: What was it? Why was it difficult? It was very traumatic, 161 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: you know, because it was the eighties and the cut 162 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: system was still in place. Can you describe the cut system? 163 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: So essentially, freshman year, we had sixty eight people in 164 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: my freshman class. By the time I graduated. Four years later, 165 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: we graduated seventeen girl The majority of The cuts would 166 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: happen after freshman year and after sophomore year. You could 167 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: get cut from the program anywhere along that time. And 168 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 1: it was a toxic environment and the system was warning probation, 169 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: final probation, advised to withdraw. Now what were they cutting 170 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: based on? Well, this is where this is, this is 171 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: the trauma, this is where the trauma lies. You know, 172 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: because with women, you know, you would show up to 173 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: the call board one day and there's a row of 174 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: letters and it's all girls, and you would see girls 175 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: open it up and then just run away screaming and 176 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: crying because they were fat letters, Like literally, you have 177 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: to lose weight if you're gonna get cut. And for 178 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: the men, for us, it was about being gay. And 179 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: interestingly enough, my class was the first class that came 180 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: in out loud and proud and said no, because we 181 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: came in strong and hard with the alan Now, you know, 182 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: first semester sophomore year, I got a final probation letter, 183 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: not going through any of the steps to get there. 184 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: I got a final probation letter for voice in speech class, 185 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: and this teacher said to me, your voice is too 186 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: high for the American stage and you'll never work oh, 187 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,079 Speaker 1: So at nineteen years old, I was able to look 188 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: this white woman in the face and say, well, it's December. 189 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: Now you've been smiling in my face all semester telling 190 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: me how good I'm doing, and now I have this. 191 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: So if my voice is too high for the American 192 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: stage today, it has been since you met me. Do 193 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: your job. That's what I'm here, that's why I'm in school. 194 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: It's your job to actually fix it. So what are 195 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: you doing? It's been girl. And then I went into 196 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: the head of the of the department and I said, 197 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: what is this. You know, because you're just working with me, 198 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: you think it's a game. But this letter in this 199 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: grade takes away from my from my scholarship money. This 200 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: is not a game for me because those of us 201 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: who come from the hood, who don't have no money 202 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: and mama and daddy ain't paying dollars a year that 203 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: bill comes to miuse mhm. I said, fuck you, I'm 204 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: not going anywhere. But that's traumatic. At nineteen years old, 205 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: that's traumatic. And it was always about the gay thing, 206 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: and they were always trying to butch me up. I 207 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: can look back at it now and have compassion for 208 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: those teachers They saw my talent and they wanted me 209 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: to be able to work. They just that was the 210 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: only way they knew how to do it. And the 211 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: thing that I came out with the most from Carnickie 212 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: Mellan was a The training was impeccable. That's why I 213 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: was there and that's why I made them teach me, 214 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: and they taught us how to live as artists. They 215 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: differentiated in the training and in in my time, there 216 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: the difference between being a celebrity and being an artist. 217 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: I came out of Carnegie Mello with that and I 218 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: am grateful for that. What for you is that? What 219 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: does that look like? What does that mean living as 220 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: an artist? For people out there listening, because because that's 221 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: what I'm about you, well, you know, people who aren't 222 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: in the business only see and experienced success in show 223 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: business as celebrity. Yes, a lot of people don't understand 224 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: that the life as an artist has many paths. There's 225 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: many ways to make money, there's many ways to exist. 226 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: But you do it because you're an artist, not because 227 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: you want to be a star. You're gonna do it 228 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: whether or not you're getting paid for it or not. 229 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: That is the difference. It's like I can't do anything 230 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: else now, it feels like a great time for a 231 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: short break. We'll be right back then. Okay, we're back. 232 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: Let's keep the conversation going. So in my Valley period, 233 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: you know, those thirteen years where I was like on 234 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: the precipice of obscurity and unemployed, in bankrupt there was 235 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: never a moment in my mind where I was going 236 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: to leave the business. And the gift of not having 237 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: the success that I saw I was entitled to have 238 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: because of my talent early in my life, it pushed 239 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: me even further into my artistry. It pushed me into 240 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: a space that I've never even dreamed of. I'm directing 241 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: a feature film right now. But you were directing theater 242 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: for those of those Valley years, and you went to 243 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: U c. L A. For screenwriting to Girl. But that's 244 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: where the expansion came, you know. That's what I mean 245 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: about the great stuff from Carnegie Mellon. It was like, well, 246 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: I don't have to stop just because nobody's hiring me 247 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: as an actor. I don't have to stop being creative. 248 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: There are many different ways to be creative. And I 249 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: had purchased my first computer, had purchased final draft, and 250 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: I said, well, what about what would I right? You know, 251 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: I was just like, what's your favorite show? Just write 252 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: your favorite show. And at the time it was Will 253 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: and Grace and Mega mlally was you know, I had 254 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: done Greece with Megan mclally, and I was like, well, 255 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 1: it disturbs me that there are no black people on 256 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: this show, so let me write in let me write 257 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 1: an episode with a really big black guest starring part. 258 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 1: So I did that and both of the movies that 259 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: I made in ninety nine got into Sundance. Megan had 260 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: a movie and Sundance too, So we met up and 261 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 1: I was like, girl, wrote an episode of your show, 262 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: and I just want you to would would you just 263 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,239 Speaker 1: take a look at it and see if it you know? 264 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 1: And so she literally read it that night and she 265 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: came back to me and she was like, heny, this 266 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: is really good. You're a really good writer. I was like, okay, okay, 267 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: like it was the first thing I've ever done. So 268 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: then I said, my next favorite show is Sex in 269 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,479 Speaker 1: the City. So I'm like, let me write an episode 270 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: of Sex in the City where they all fucked black man. 271 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: So I sat down, I started to write it, and 272 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: I thought, why am I wasting my time on this? 273 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: Let me actually right the black gay version of this. 274 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: And so I wrote two original episodes of a show 275 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: that still sits on my computer to this day to 276 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: remind me of, m hm, how far I've come. Amen 277 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: called Ladies Who Lunch and I wrote two episodes and 278 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: I was writing in complete and utter silence. I wasn't 279 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: telling anybody. I was just doing it for me. Once again, 280 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,120 Speaker 1: that's what you do as an artist, practice your art. 281 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: And then I was living in l A. And I 282 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: called a few of my friends and I said, I 283 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: want to have a reading of something that I wrote. 284 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 1: Come over to the house out cook will fellowship, and 285 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: let's just read this out loud. I'd love to see 286 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: if there's anything in it. And we finished it and 287 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: they were like, Billy, this is good. At this point, 288 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: I had written three things in my whole life. Because 289 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: freshman year of college, I wrote a short story for 290 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: history class and I created a character, you know, like 291 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: a hero's journey, and I put all of the information 292 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: into short story for this paper and the teacher failed 293 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: me and said, leave your drama and acting class. This 294 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: is now trauma so now this is two thousand. I 295 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 1: take those steps to write. There is a program at 296 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: U c l A which is the Professional Program and Screenwriting. 297 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: So Mondays was a lecture session and they were probably 298 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: about a hundred and fifty people in the program, and 299 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: then two more days in the week you would have 300 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 1: a breakout session with only eight people for four hours 301 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: at a time, and so you know, they've read all 302 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: of our material. We came in and then they were 303 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: going down the line, how long have you been writing? 304 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: How I said, this is the first thing I've ever written. 305 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: And the teacher pulled me us out at the end 306 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: of class and she said, listen, you're not a first 307 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: time writer. Something happened, and in order for you to 308 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: move forward, you're gonna have to go back in your 309 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: mind and figure out what blocked you from writing, because 310 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: you're writing is far too complex and layered, and you 311 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: know to never have done it before. I encourage you 312 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 1: to think about that. And that's when I remembered the 313 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 1: story of that teacher who said leave your drawing connecting class. 314 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:53,959 Speaker 1: And I didn't even write a grocery list after that 315 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: for like twelve years. So that was the start of me, 316 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: like enlarging my territory. And there was one particular exercise 317 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: where you were supposed to just blurt and write down, 318 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: you know, ten or twenty people that you admire, but 319 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: not think about it, just write the first names that 320 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 1: come to your head. And so like a year later, 321 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: I opened up the book and I started reading my stuff, 322 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: and and in those blurts, what I discovered was, Oh, 323 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,719 Speaker 1: it's not Whitney Houston that I want to be like. 324 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: She was not on the list. Michael Jackson was not 325 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: on the list. Denzel Washington was not on the list. 326 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: It was George C. Wolf, it was Steven Spielberg, it 327 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 1: was Ryan Mercy, it was Tony Kushner. You know, I 328 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,239 Speaker 1: was like, wait, I want to be a performer like 329 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: it just it was news to me. It was news 330 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: to me that my own dreams unconsciously had expanded beyond 331 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: my ego. M that's the piece. And I mean one 332 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: of your interviews you talked about being young and wanting 333 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: to be famous, and like, you know that that thing 334 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: and how it went the ship to service. The ship 335 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 1: too took your ego out of all of it. And 336 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: I think for me, the power of speaking into existence, 337 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: but also writing it down. Is that many years later, 338 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: you were in Angels in America and I was in 339 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: Angels in America with Tony Kushner, like in rehearsal's video, 340 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: which is insane to me. Can you talk a little 341 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: bit about that experience, I mean, Tony Kushner, Angels America's 342 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,479 Speaker 1: so iconic. Well, that was one of you. As we 343 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: spoke earlier. That was one of the transitions for me. 344 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: You know. The transition for me was I was doing 345 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: Greece on forty nine Street at the Eugene O'Neill Theater, 346 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: and everybody was talking about this play Angels in America 347 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,959 Speaker 1: tongue Kushner and it's you know, Fantasia on national Themes 348 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: and you know, seven hours and two parts, and like 349 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 1: it was this grand thing, and so I took myself 350 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: to it by myself, and it was the first time 351 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: that I realized I had never seen a representation of 352 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:27,719 Speaker 1: me in a positive light. You know, believe is the 353 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: moral core of that entire play. With all those crazy 354 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: white people swirling around him, he has be calm in 355 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: the middle of all of it. Like it's powerful to 356 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 1: see that. It was the first time that I had 357 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: seen it and I sat in my seat heaving, like 358 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 1: weeping because of what I had just seen, and also 359 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 1: the chasm that I knew existed between what I was 360 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: doing a block away and what I just saw that 361 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: I wanted to be doing. Yeah, And I was like, 362 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: here I am prancing around like a little Richard automaton 363 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: on crack when who I really am is this, And 364 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: because I'm doing that, no one will ever see me 365 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: as this. If I want anybody to see me as this, 366 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to take myself out of that and 367 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: change the narrative myself. And that's what I did. And 368 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: in that Valley period. You know, it took a long time. 369 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 1: It was not easy, it was not quick. I learned patients. 370 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: I thought I was moving to behind the scenes. I 371 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 1: was cool. I was calling that time my semi retirement. 372 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: Like I had found joy in creating. In another way, 373 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: I found joy, and writing I found joy, and directed. 374 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 1: I was can. I said, what's deep to me is 375 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: that someone with the talent that that you have, we 376 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: all understand how enormous the talent is, and how for 377 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,719 Speaker 1: decades folks with your level of talent because there were 378 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: no opportunities in front of the camera, were relegated to 379 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,479 Speaker 1: doing things behind the scenes, right that there was just 380 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: no space for openly gay folks, especially an openly gay 381 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: black man. But the world has changed so much and 382 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,719 Speaker 1: there is space for you now to be able to 383 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: you know, Ryan Murphy said to just sit on your throne, 384 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 1: and you said, you don't have to tell me twice, 385 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: and and you're sitting on your throne, darling, You're sitting 386 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: on your throne where you belong with the talent, but 387 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 1: also with the years of of struggle. You know, rejection 388 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: is God's protection. That came up for me when you 389 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: were talking your story, the whole thing about being sort 390 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 1: of pigeonholed and then understanding that you were here for 391 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: something different. The rejection of not being seen for who 392 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: you are and being told to shape shift was the 393 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: blessing that you needed so that the world could see 394 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: all the things that you have to offer, and being 395 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: willing to do that work, being willing to sort of 396 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 1: go into the valley. You know, it was. Really, it's 397 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: been it's been a real like my mind is blown 398 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 1: and I'm living in you know, never in a million 399 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: years I had big dreams. I've always had big dreams, 400 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: but they were always based on in springboarded office ship. 401 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: I had already seen why can't I be the first 402 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 1: black Jean Valjean, Why can't I be the first black headwig? 403 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: Why can't I be the first black X y Z? 404 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: Instead of the first period. It never occurred to me 405 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: that I could be the first period. Yeah, that to 406 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: really have the career that was authentic for you, that's 407 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 1: what had to happen, correct, you know, because I was 408 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: just ready to settle for Reese Witherspoon's best friends, and 409 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: and I don't mean that in any shady kind of way. 410 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: It was like, that's just the only thing there was. 411 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: I didn't know how to dream the impossible. And that's 412 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: what this last ten years from getting that Angels in 413 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: America audition, finally knowing that it was a courtesy audition, 414 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: to walking in that room and speaking in the first 415 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: line and seeing the whole room leaning and keep me 416 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: in there for an hour. Well, everybody waited outside, and 417 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 1: Tony Kushner got up from his table with tears streaming 418 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: down his face and gave me a bear hug and said, 419 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: you're the voice I heard when I wrote this play. 420 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: Twenty five years ago, I said, I know, Boo, that 421 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: I've been trying to get in this room for twenty years. 422 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: I know, that's what I've been saying. It just blows 423 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: my mind. Do you know what this shift was? You 424 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: know what the moment? I know you talk a lot 425 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: about it speaking things into existence, but do you have 426 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 1: a sense of was it just a cumulative thing or 427 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: was there a moment when it just when it just clicked. 428 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: Was it that audition for Angels and American I mean, 429 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: Tony Kushner, hug made Jesus, It's beautiful. It was cumulative, 430 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: you know, after not having been in anything in the 431 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: theater for for a decade, you know, to come back 432 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: with Angels in America was the launch of something new. Absolutely. 433 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 1: But also what I believe too, is that you for 434 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: that ten years, you have been laying the groundwork that like, 435 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: because I've been speaking Laverne being a superstar into existence. 436 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: As I moved to New York and the Girl it 437 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: wasn't happening, But but you were laying the groundwork through 438 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: the writing, through the One Man Show, through moving but 439 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: being of service and I think mining them. You can't 440 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: just show up. There was a foundational work inside for 441 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: you to be prepared. So then though speaking into existence 442 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: came after a lot of groundwork was laid. I just 443 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: want people to understand that because I think people get 444 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: confused with manifestation. That didn't mean you don't do work. 445 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: You have to take action. There was a guest teacher 446 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: that came to Cardion when I was there. She said, 447 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: do one one thing every day, think about it, and 448 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: just take one step every day towards what your goal is. 449 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: It's the work, you know, And we're in an industry, 450 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: one of the only industries, by the way, where you 451 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: can have the talent or not amen. You can be 452 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: plucked off the street and be number one on the 453 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: call sheet, or you could have gone to Cardigie Mellon 454 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: or Yale or something and not even get anywhere near 455 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: booking it. That can throw you off, you know, because 456 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: everybody else's careers are linear, that's what every other profession does. 457 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: This one does not. In Ping Pong's it's up, it's down, 458 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: it's cyberates, you know, it's all over the place. And 459 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: so for me, what I found is that it really 460 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: was about what am I doing it for? Yeah, what 461 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: is the service component? You know? And when I asked 462 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: myself that question, it hit me like a ton of bricks. 463 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: It was like, it's your queerness. It's that thing that 464 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: everybody's telling you is your liability. Yeah, and it was 465 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: my liability for a long time. My transmence was mine. 466 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: It was my liability for a long time until it 467 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: wasn't yes for me, it was like this thing that 468 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: was gonna hold me back. And then I said, wait, 469 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: this is like, this makes me different, this makes me special, 470 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: this is beautiful. And just that shift really like it 471 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: really was the beginning of like so many things for me. 472 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: What is so beautiful about you and is that your 473 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: life is an artist, is intertwined with your healing. And 474 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: I don't want to end our time without talking about 475 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: your book Unprotected, without talking about how much you talk 476 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: about trauma and trauma resilience and trauma healing. That's what 477 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: sort of sparked me wanting to have you on the show. 478 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: But the memoir Unprotected, why just that title evokes so 479 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: much for me? Can you tell us why you're calling 480 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: the book unprotected? You know, it's interesting because the title 481 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: didn't come until way into the writing of it, and 482 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: the writing of it didn't click for me until COVID 483 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: because when the writing agent approached me in two thousand 484 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: and fourteen after he saw my play that I had 485 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: written while I yet live, about healing the trauma of 486 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: my sexual abuse at the hands of my stepfather through 487 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: the eyes of my mother and my sister, that started 488 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: as The Pace of Murkison off Broadway in two thousand 489 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: and fourteen. Simultaneously, as I was doing Kinky Boots, this 490 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: agent came and just called me out of the blue 491 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: and said, oh, you should write a book. I want 492 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: to represent you to Dajaja and so we s about it, 493 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: and you know, we went back and forth for years 494 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: and we got it sold to Abrams Press, and then 495 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: I got down to trying to figure out how to 496 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: write it, never having written a book before. Like, I'm like, 497 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: and the theme was overcoming at very city, you know, like, yes, 498 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: that's always the thing they want, but that wasn't specific enough, right, 499 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: But I didn't know what the specifics of it were. 500 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: And then Trump happened, and then COVID happened. Like in 501 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: my trauma therapy, my trauma therapist was like, you weren't protected, 502 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god, right, nobody was 503 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: protecting you. And then we were in the middle of 504 00:32:55,040 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: COVID and lockdown, and I was like unprotected, unprotected the 505 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: micro which is my own personal journey and the macro 506 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: because I couldn't understand my way in writing wise, you know, 507 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: sort of like structure wise, because the last thing I 508 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: wanted to do was right a cradle to grave narrative 509 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: linearly like a bad one person show. I was like, 510 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: I read too much James Baldwin and Tony Morrison and 511 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: todda Heasy Coats and you know, like I read too 512 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: much to go down like that, like you know, and 513 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: it was it was a thing that was like blocking 514 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: me for a sounds a little perfectionist dick, yes, yes, 515 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: and comparing myself to that and it's like, okay, I 516 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 1: have to stop doing that. But like, what is it 517 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: that's completely me that will just knock that away? And 518 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: so what I found was is I would go on 519 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: these rants during the Trump administration. The news was always on, 520 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: and I would just found myself talking to myself and 521 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: talking back to the TV, and I was like, oh 522 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: my god, oh my god, that's what connects the story 523 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 1: of the past to the one in the present, like, 524 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 1: that's the connection. So the structure of the book fell 525 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: into place because of that. And the thing that makes 526 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 1: it interesting to read is that we pop back and forth, 527 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: you know, we pop to the past via a rant 528 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: that I'm having from something I just watched on television 529 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 1: because of trauma, because of trauma, because of trauma, and 530 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it just started. I wouldn't say 531 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: flowing saying. It took me time. It took me a 532 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: long time because I have something to say and I 533 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,479 Speaker 1: wanted to make sure that I was saying it for real, 534 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: you know, and using my voice in service. I was like, Oh, 535 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:27,280 Speaker 1: it's not just overcoming adversity, it's healing my trauma through 536 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: my art, which is what I've been doing my entire life. 537 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: It's the only reason why I'm alive, it really is. 538 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: I gotta take a teensy break here, but I'll be fast. 539 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: That wasn't so bad, now, was it. Let's get back 540 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: to it. Your artistic life has been a rope map 541 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: to your healing. When you talk about you talk about 542 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: pose and how I didn't know how autobiographical pose. What 543 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: this girl and you talked about the first couple of 544 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 1: seasons and how you were giving them sixteen takes of 545 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: all this trauma and how retraumatizing it was for you. 546 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: And I know what that's like as an actor. And 547 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: so where's the healing piece for you now around? Do 548 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: you feel like you're there now through the process of 549 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: posts through their memoir where there's still there's always stuff, 550 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: but it's it's that stuff to bed so you can 551 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 1: work on other stuff. I mean, the short answer is yes, Like, 552 00:36:53,239 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: finally I feel that cloud of trauma lifting, you know, 553 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: because I have taken the steps to work through it. 554 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: And I think a huge piece of it was the 555 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: shame of my HIV positive status. And when I was 556 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 1: able to stand in front of the world and release that, 557 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: I literally felt weight lifted off of me, like taking 558 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:36,359 Speaker 1: in amounts of air that I don't think I've ever 559 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: been able to take it. How many people knew about 560 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: your STAF? Did Ryan know? Did the post people know? 561 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: So they wrote all that not knowing Jesus Christ? I 562 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: didn't know, so like did your husband at My husband? 563 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 1: My husband knows, my sister knows, my close friends, so 564 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: just a very small circle, but they didn't Even my 565 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 1: close friends didn't know until after several years. What do 566 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,879 Speaker 1: you think the shame was about weird for me? I 567 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: grew up, I'm I'm forty nine. I grew up, you know, 568 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: in the eighties. So when I started, when I went 569 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: through puberty, like HB was happening, right, and my whole 570 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: association with sex on my knew I liked boys. I 571 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: was like, I'm gonna have sex, get aids and die. 572 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 1: But that was my whole trauma around sex, right, That's 573 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: what I'm still working through right now, you know. So 574 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 1: I went from being molested by my stepfather from the 575 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: age of seven to twelve to being gay to being 576 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: dropped in the middle of the age crisis. If you 577 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: have sex, you die, Like it was all trauma. It 578 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: was all trauma, you know, and it was like the 579 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: shame of it came at the intersection of society and 580 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: the church, you know. So the component of you're gonna 581 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 1: be a statistic as a black man, You're gonna be 582 00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 1: a statistic. You know. What I say is two thousand 583 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,920 Speaker 1: and seven was the worst year in my life. February 584 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: was diabetes, March was bankruptcy, June was HIV. All of 585 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: the things that everybody said I would be in the 586 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 1: statistic conversation happened in the same year, and that was 587 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: the shame. And I had been running from it from 588 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: my entire life. I had been avoiding it. And the 589 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,760 Speaker 1: matrix like, yes, right, like you know I ate proctly 590 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,320 Speaker 1: for breakfast, like it runs in my family. It was 591 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: gonna happen. Type two can be hereditary to a lot 592 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: of people. Don't really realize that, you know. And so 593 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: it was like I just had so much shame. I 594 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: was bankrupt, you know. Everybody said, you're in show business, 595 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:47,839 Speaker 1: You're never gonna make a living, you know what I'm 596 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,720 Speaker 1: hearing it with shame, so much is about the stories 597 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: we tell ourselves, right, Shame is so much about all 598 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: those stories. And I haven't Shame has been a huge 599 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,279 Speaker 1: part of my life. But when at Bernie Brown, are 600 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: our shame, our shame eggs for this. When we deny 601 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,360 Speaker 1: our stories, those stories define us. When we own our stories, 602 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 1: we can write a brave new ending. And you are 603 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: owning your story this year in a way that is 604 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: so insanely powerful for all of us. Shame does not 605 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 1: like like when we speak the shame. Burnee Brown says 606 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: that shame dissipates when we tell the story to someone 607 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,360 Speaker 1: who's earned the right to hear, you know, met with empathy. 608 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: Empathyist the antidote to shame, and that's what we do 609 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,800 Speaker 1: as artists. For me, the trauma pieces, yes, the trauma happened, 610 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 1: and we have to deal with that. But the resilient 611 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 1: piece has been there throughout your whole life. It's been 612 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: the art. It's been that incredible voice. I can't believe 613 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 1: you stood up to your teacher like that, even the 614 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 1: way you stood up to your abuser a teenager, that 615 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 1: there was something inside you that had a sense of 616 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: your own worthiness. You know, when I was in college 617 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 1: with my ballet teachers, I didn't have that right. I 618 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: wasn't being cast in things, and I was being shamed 619 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: because I was too firm too, I was too much 620 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: of a girl. I wasn't masculine enough. And now that's fine, 621 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 1: that's great, right now, even with this deep voice, and 622 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,320 Speaker 1: I did not have the courage just stand up to 623 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,400 Speaker 1: my ballet teachers. And you stood up for yourself, And 624 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: it seems it feels like you've always done that, even 625 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,320 Speaker 1: and and even leaving Broadway, standing up for yourself, standing 626 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 1: up for a vision, for your life. That's bigger. Leaving 627 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: my record label. Leaving my record label when they took 628 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,799 Speaker 1: my song and gave it to Celine Dion. Which song 629 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: was that? Love Is on the Way. You said that 630 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,320 Speaker 1: the music industry almost killed you? What did you mean 631 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 1: by that? And the nineties? For people who don't know 632 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,799 Speaker 1: you had a record deal? You are? You are on 633 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 1: Star Search girl. You want Star Search thousand dollars you had? 634 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,879 Speaker 1: You did three R and B albums, you just one 635 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 1: R and B album came out. In What I meant 636 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 1: by it almost killed me? Was up until that point, 637 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 1: my voice, my singing voice, was my savior. Yes, it 638 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 1: got me out of my circumstances. It did everything for me. 639 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: And then in the arena of music, it became about 640 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 1: my gayness. Nobody cared about my voice. Oh it didn't 641 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,800 Speaker 1: matter how well I sang. It was like I couldn't 642 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: even speak without somebody, you know. I was getting ready 643 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,400 Speaker 1: to go on the Rosie o'donald show from my album, 644 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 1: and I had already been on the show several times 645 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,560 Speaker 1: because she was a friend of mine from the Revival 646 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 1: of Greece. So I was here now was like a 647 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,360 Speaker 1: record in a in a song and um, right before 648 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,479 Speaker 1: I went out, the room was bustling with my music 649 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: industry people, and somebody said, well, just don't you you 650 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 1: don't speak, I mean, you don't, just try not to 651 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:45,960 Speaker 1: talk too much. Do you feel like you were defined 652 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 1: by that voice that you that you were like literally 653 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 1: you were whether you're Donald called you the voice, Rosier 654 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: Donald called you the voice. And all of a sudden, 655 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 1: this thing that you have been defined by, this thing 656 00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 1: that has been celebrated, this thing that's InCred of ball right, 657 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 1: all of a sudden is a liability, and all of 658 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 1: a sudden is the thing that's not getting you to 659 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: where you want to go. I can't even imagine what 660 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 1: that must be like. It's horrible. Oh my god, it 661 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:17,320 Speaker 1: was horrible, you know. And to say to the universe 662 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 1: I am more than my voice. I am more than 663 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,279 Speaker 1: my voice. And then to wake up September twelve, two 664 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: thousand and one, too severe as reflex. Oh that took 665 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,879 Speaker 1: my voice away. I was like, Okay, lord, I don't 666 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,320 Speaker 1: know what's going on right now, but I'm just gonna 667 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,120 Speaker 1: lay it at the cross chow because the wait I 668 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 1: didn't know you had severe as a reflex and took 669 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,320 Speaker 1: your voice with obviously your voice back, So it was it, 670 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:46,759 Speaker 1: but it's a way different voice than what it was. 671 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 1: I had really bad reflex in two thousand six and 672 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 1: I had to change my diet. I locked my singing 673 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,240 Speaker 1: voice to with it. Just training. Was it changing your diet? 674 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 1: It was all the stress, Like I had all of 675 00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 1: the tests done, the tube down my stomach, They're like, 676 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: there's nothing there. It's all stressed. You know. That was 677 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 1: me holding all of the just the all of the trauma. 678 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: It was just I put myself on the path to 679 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:16,720 Speaker 1: figure out how to fix it. But what a gift 680 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:21,879 Speaker 1: though that it's all a gift that I knew it then. 681 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 1: I actually knew it in the middle of it. You know, 682 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,840 Speaker 1: when I lost my voice, I was like, okay, you know, 683 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: because I wasn't turning things down. I was too scared. 684 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,799 Speaker 1: I was too scared to be without money. I was 685 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 1: too scared to be without means. I was too scared 686 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,400 Speaker 1: to take the actual leap of faith that I needed 687 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: to take to get to the other side of it. 688 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 1: You know, I got fired from the revival of Little 689 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: Shop of Horrors out of Town because I needed to 690 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:03,319 Speaker 1: be amen. Because the universe was saying, you know, you 691 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,399 Speaker 1: ain't supposed to be singing backstage and no booth. Mm hmmm, 692 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 1: you've been asking for something else? Yes, do you really 693 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,279 Speaker 1: want something else? We're gonna see And that job went 694 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 1: right away and I was like, okay, okay, gorgeous. I'd 695 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: like to end the podcast with the question what else 696 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:29,600 Speaker 1: is true? And this actually comes from my trauma resilience 697 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:31,839 Speaker 1: work and the in the concept of both. And even 698 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:35,759 Speaker 1: if there's something traumatizing our lives, something that's really really challenging, 699 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 1: if we focus on that, that gets bigger. But if 700 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,440 Speaker 1: there's there's something else that's true and we can focus 701 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,040 Speaker 1: our energy there is that can get bigger, that can 702 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,719 Speaker 1: be the thing that gets us through, that can be 703 00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 1: the place of resilience. So for you today, Billy Porter, 704 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:54,160 Speaker 1: what else is true? M That's a really good question. 705 00:45:55,320 --> 00:46:00,719 Speaker 1: What else is true? Is that I, Billy Porter M 706 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:09,320 Speaker 1: enough m hm, always have been, always will be for real. Yeah, 707 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,239 Speaker 1: for everybody out there, like you are not all the 708 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 1: things and all the things where stands in the way 709 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,320 Speaker 1: becomes the other things that people say that are that 710 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,759 Speaker 1: are bad about you. That's your goal. It totally is. 711 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,399 Speaker 1: We're living proof of that. My sweetheart. Yes, we are 712 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:34,560 Speaker 1: all right. Thank you, Billy, thank you brilliant. Okay, bye bye, Darling, 713 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:45,880 Speaker 1: Billy Porter, Billy Porter. In this moment, I'm thinking what 714 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:51,879 Speaker 1: a shame it would be if we didn't have all 715 00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,839 Speaker 1: of the moment that Billy Porter has given us over 716 00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:59,360 Speaker 1: the past several years. In the Kinky Boots moment, everything 717 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,799 Speaker 1: that Billy is done, I pose the Oscar moment in 718 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:06,200 Speaker 1: the Christian Ciriano tuxedo gown. We didn't even talk about fashion. 719 00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:11,640 Speaker 1: We need Billy's life. We need Billy's talent, Billy's testimony 720 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:16,719 Speaker 1: desperately and badly, and that homophobia and industry that just 721 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,040 Speaker 1: didn't know what to do with him could have kept 722 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:24,000 Speaker 1: us from that talent. But as Oprah says, God can 723 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:26,839 Speaker 1: dream a bigger dream for us than we can dream 724 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,440 Speaker 1: for ourselves. Billy had the dream after seeing Angels in 725 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,200 Speaker 1: America and knew the kind of work that he wanted 726 00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,359 Speaker 1: to do. The space of what Kushner was doing in 727 00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:38,360 Speaker 1: that brilliant play is the space that he wanted to 728 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:43,719 Speaker 1: exist in artistically, and he set that intention, and the 729 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,360 Speaker 1: universe conspired once he did sat down and did the work. 730 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,560 Speaker 1: Oprah again says, after she read Seat of the Soul 731 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,200 Speaker 1: by Gary zo cooped and thought about, you know intention 732 00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:58,080 Speaker 1: what Gary Zookov says about authentic power. She says that 733 00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:03,040 Speaker 1: authentic power is when you're personality comes to serve the 734 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:07,759 Speaker 1: energy of your soul. And Billy Porter is the epitome 735 00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:12,880 Speaker 1: of authentic power in this moment, and we can all 736 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:17,080 Speaker 1: learn from Billy's story. Go out and get Billy's new book, 737 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:32,919 Speaker 1: Unprotected and you are indeed enough. M H. Thank you 738 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,080 Speaker 1: so much for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Please 739 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:40,120 Speaker 1: rate reviews, subscribe and share with everyone you know. You 740 00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,400 Speaker 1: can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox 741 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:48,920 Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Laverne Cox for Real. This is 742 00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,320 Speaker 1: the last episode of season one of The Laverne Cox Show. 743 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:54,560 Speaker 1: We don't know if there will be a season two. 744 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,319 Speaker 1: Whatever happens, I have had a blast bringing these conversations 745 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,279 Speaker 1: to you. It hasn't always been easy. I think about 746 00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,640 Speaker 1: the times I was in tears or frustration as I 747 00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:08,719 Speaker 1: prepare for various episodes. After my conversation with Chase strange you, 748 00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:10,799 Speaker 1: for example, I had to go an ugly cry for 749 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,520 Speaker 1: about twenty minutes before I could do the wrap up 750 00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:17,000 Speaker 1: but I have learned so much, and I am so 751 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,000 Speaker 1: grateful to each and every one of my guests for 752 00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:23,400 Speaker 1: their wisdom, generosity and for teaching me and us. I 753 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,920 Speaker 1: want to go back and re listen to episodes because, 754 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,080 Speaker 1: as Bell Hooks reminds us, our struggle is also one 755 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,680 Speaker 1: of memory against forgetting. I encourage you to re listen 756 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:36,120 Speaker 1: to episodes as well. So much of this first season 757 00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:40,000 Speaker 1: has been about going on a journey of deeper healing 758 00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,279 Speaker 1: for me. I wanted that for myself and thought I 759 00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:46,000 Speaker 1: would invite you to sit in on that journey. But 760 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,760 Speaker 1: we've also had a lot of fun talking about Beyonce 761 00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,360 Speaker 1: and my deep luff for opera for example. Thank you 762 00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,200 Speaker 1: for going on that journey with me. Thank you so much. 763 00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:59,040 Speaker 1: A very special thanks to Lauren Holman and Brooke Peterson 764 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,960 Speaker 1: and everyone at Shonda Land and I Heeart Media. They're incredible, 765 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,920 Speaker 1: and thank you all so much for listening, and as always, 766 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:20,920 Speaker 1: stay in the luck. The Laverne Cox Show is a 767 00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,440 Speaker 1: production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. 768 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,600 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit the I 769 00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:31,360 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to 770 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:32,320 Speaker 1: your favorite shows,