Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, or welcome back to
Speaker 1: the show, or welcome back to the podcast new listeners,
Speaker 1: old listeners, wherever you are in the world. I'm so
Speaker 1: excited for today's episode because today we are talking about
Speaker 1: the idea or the psychological construct of cod dependency, and
Speaker 1: not just in romantic relationships, but also in other fundamental
Speaker 1: interpersonal relationships, particularly our friendships and with our family. I
Speaker 1: think that codependency can show up in so many facets
Speaker 1: of our social life lives. And although there is a
Speaker 1: healthy amount of dependency and very real reasons why that
Speaker 1: kind of turns into codependency, when it's taken to extremes,
Speaker 1: when it's uncontrollable, what can emerge are pretty I would say,
Speaker 1: parasitic symbiotic relationships that restrict our lives. It is a
Speaker 1: very nuanced idea and a very nuanced concept. And I
Speaker 1: get this topic requested of me all the time, all
Speaker 1: the time, so it must be bothering some of us
Speaker 1: out there. And I honestly don't know why I haven't
Speaker 1: done it sooner, because it is such a crucial and
Speaker 1: valuable discussion that needs to be had in this decade
Speaker 1: of our lives. I also think another reason I was
Speaker 1: really cool to almost do an episode on this, and
Speaker 1: the reason I wanted to discuss the idea of codependency,
Speaker 1: is because I think that its meaning has been incredibly
Speaker 1: skewed by misinterpretations on the in in pop culture across
Speaker 1: social media, and when we use the term codependency, it's
Speaker 1: often really casual and flippant, and from the research that
Speaker 1: I've done, I've just come to realize it's so much
Speaker 1: more than that. So hopefully we can set the meaning
Speaker 1: straight in this episode and kind of dive into all
Speaker 1: of the psychology that is the basis of this concept
Speaker 1: and this idea, especially how it can become visible and
Speaker 1: can become a problem in our friendships and in our relationships.
Speaker 1: So we're going to discuss, of course, the history behind
Speaker 1: the term codependency, how it actually found its beginnings in
Speaker 1: AA meetings of all places, how it shows up in
Speaker 1: our lives, how it manifests in our relationships. I guess
Speaker 1: also some of the warning science and some of the
Speaker 1: causes of this experience of codependency, specifically to do with
Speaker 1: our upbringing and childhood attachment. But I also want to
Speaker 1: talk about healthy dependency, interdependency, and what it really means
Speaker 1: to rely on to love and trust other people in
Speaker 1: a way that is sustainable and healthy in what that
Speaker 1: means for our lives. But if you're listening to this
Speaker 1: with a bit of fear, maybe that a relationship of
Speaker 1: yours is becoming codependent, not to worry, because I also
Speaker 1: really want to rehash some of the discussions that we've
Speaker 1: had before around boundaries and how to separate yourself and
Speaker 1: someone you may be codependent with and restore a healthy
Speaker 1: amount of reliance and support between you and another person.
Speaker 1: This topic is so relevant for our twenties. I feel
Speaker 1: like in this decade we are filled with so many
Speaker 1: emotions and deep feelings and realizations, but also insecurities and
Speaker 1: quite frankly, things that we need help with, things that
Speaker 1: we haven't yet figured out. And the intensity of close
Speaker 1: relationships that we have in this decade, be that platonic
Speaker 1: with our family or intimate, those relationships can be such
Speaker 1: a soothing band aid almost for so many of our
Speaker 1: worries and concerns, but often when we cling to people
Speaker 1: in times of uncertainty, it can create problems. You know.
Speaker 1: I've had partners and friends who have been an absolute
Speaker 1: lifeline for me in periods of crisis. I felt like
Speaker 1: I couldn't live without them. But I think it's important
Speaker 1: to know when that is stepping into an unhealthy terrain
Speaker 1: and could actually potentially undermine what is best for us.
Speaker 1: So a discussion around codependency and how it manifests in
Speaker 1: the relationships we have, I think is so crucial And
Speaker 1: if you can relate well, you're definitely in the right place,
Speaker 1: I guess, And in for a treat because there's so
Speaker 1: much fascinating stuff behind the scenes of what we typically
Speaker 1: see or think of codependency, and so many to I guess,
Speaker 1: discuss and explore. So get ready, strap in. I'm so
Speaker 1: excited for this deep dive and the discussion and all
Speaker 1: that is to come. Like we always do, let's start
Speaker 1: this discussion, this exploration by getting our basics downpat what
Speaker 1: is codependency and what is the psychological basis I guess
Speaker 1: behind its existence and presentation in our lives. So essentially,
Speaker 1: codependency is an unhealthy dysfunctional relationship that is unbalanced, whereby
Speaker 1: one person has assumed the role of the giver or
Speaker 1: the provider. There's someone who is willing to give and
Speaker 1: sacrifice everything for another person, whereas the other individual and
Speaker 1: this relationship is the taker. I think the first major
Speaker 1: element of this kind of relationship is that it is unhealthy.
Speaker 1: I think when we typically think about codependency as a society,
Speaker 1: as a community of people who have access to the
Speaker 1: internet and whatnot, we tend to imagine people who spend
Speaker 1: a lot of time together who are really inseparable. You know,
Speaker 1: you may have a best friend who you see every
Speaker 1: day and you do everything with and you talk for
Speaker 1: hours and you can't imagine your life without. That isn't
Speaker 1: inherently unhealthy or codependent. If both people are equally reliant
Speaker 1: on each other, or the relationship is what we would
Speaker 1: call mutually beneficial. You know, there is a balanced level
Speaker 1: of support and compassion from both parties. It becomes unhealthy
Speaker 1: and it becomes codependent. When the balancing act is distributed
Speaker 1: or disturbed and it shifts in one person's favor, you know,
Speaker 1: it's no longer even. And this is really important. When
Speaker 1: we consider the second element of code dependent, which is
Speaker 1: that all the relationships that are codependent are seen as
Speaker 1: one sided, you know, one person being the giver, one
Speaker 1: person being the taker. That doesn't mean that both parties
Speaker 1: don't actually get something from the arrangement, because the relationship
Speaker 1: that they have struck may mean that each was equally
Speaker 1: as dependent for different reasons. I don't think this is
Speaker 1: to make a generalization about every codependent relationship, you know.
Speaker 1: I think when we talk about abusive relationships or abuse,
Speaker 1: we are moving away from simply, you know, codependency, and
Speaker 1: sometimes they come hand in hand, especially when we consider
Speaker 1: emotional abuse. But I think most people who we would
Speaker 1: consider as codependent, the nature of their codependency rests on
Speaker 1: that truth that both parties are receiving something, regardless of
Speaker 1: whether they recognize that consciously. For example, in any codependent situation,
Speaker 1: we have that giver, we have that taker, and each
Speaker 1: person has taken up one of those roles. That's essentially
Speaker 1: the equation of any codependent relationship. And although I think
Speaker 1: we may take pity on the giver because they're being
Speaker 1: really self sacrificing, maybe they're unable to set boundaries, or
Speaker 1: they're exhausted by their counterparts, need to take from them
Speaker 1: or be reliant on them. They may get some satisfaction
Speaker 1: from providing this one sided support to the taker, or
Speaker 1: they may feel responsible for their partner or their parents
Speaker 1: or their friends, and all that comes without their thoughts,
Speaker 1: their feelings and their actions. And in contrast, you know,
Speaker 1: the taker receives essentially unconditional love and support, you know, patience, money, forgiveness,
Speaker 1: whatever they need, and they are willing to accept that.
Speaker 1: I think the term codependent, like I said, is often
Speaker 1: lobbied at people to describe them as kind of needy
Speaker 1: or really clingy, but it is so much more than that,
Speaker 1: and it's often encouraged in some way in some ways
Speaker 1: by the giver and also the taker as well, I guess,
Speaker 1: because they share in the responsibility and need for each other.
Speaker 1: I saw it described really well by this person called
Speaker 1: doctor leg in Medical News today, and what they said
Speaker 1: essentially was that a codependent relationship occurs when one person
Speaker 1: needs the other, who in turn needs to be needed.
Speaker 1: Like I said before, codependency it's not just reserved for
Speaker 1: romantic relationships as we may assume. It can really take
Speaker 1: place in any relationship which becomes unbalanced. Friendships, work relationships,
Speaker 1: family relationships with our parents, with our siblings, with our
Speaker 1: aunts and uncles, anyone that you have some kind of
Speaker 1: social interaction with. I often think about the people who
Speaker 1: message me or tell me about friends of theirs who
Speaker 1: are absolutely reliant on them for all emotional support, and
Speaker 1: they're constantly sacrificing their time and their energy to almost
Speaker 1: tend to this person. Whereas when they have problems or issues,
Speaker 1: that friend is never there for them. They're never willing
Speaker 1: to make those sacrifices. Their friend is completely dependent on them,
Speaker 1: whilst the other person just tess to bear that and
Speaker 1: either can't do something or doesn't feel right about asking
Speaker 1: for that reciprocation. Withdrawing from that type of person, someone
Speaker 1: who is codependent on you can be really, really difficult,
Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about that later. But interestingly,
Speaker 1: before we jump into that, I think some of the
Speaker 1: history is quite fascinating. You know, the term codependent codependency,
Speaker 1: It actually came out of research on the relationships between
Speaker 1: people who were suffering from addiction and the people that
Speaker 1: were close to them in their lives. That's where the
Speaker 1: term first appeared Amongst researchers who were studying people with addiction,
Speaker 1: and they used it to describe the almost lopsided or
Speaker 1: you know, one sided, enabling relationships between someone who was struggling,
Speaker 1: perhaps with alcohol abuse or substance abuse and the people,
Speaker 1: you know, normally family and partners, who feel that they
Speaker 1: have to give in to that person's struggles and they
Speaker 1: have to help them. Then it kind of moved its
Speaker 1: way into AA alcoholics anonymous meetings, and then it kind
Speaker 1: of became a common term through that as it became
Speaker 1: more accessible to people. And I guess now it's been
Speaker 1: embraced by pop culture and pop you know and psychobabble
Speaker 1: to describe something that I think it really wasn't intended
Speaker 1: to represent. You know. Essentially, it was used to describe
Speaker 1: enabling relationships, you know, where one person is enabling another
Speaker 1: person's dependence on them or their dependence on something like
Speaker 1: drugs or alcohol. This actually really surprised me when I
Speaker 1: learned this, because I think, like most people, I had
Speaker 1: a very naive, i would say, understanding of what it was.
Speaker 1: I used it very casually, but it is a lot
Speaker 1: more severe and intricate than that. So now that we
Speaker 1: kind of know some of the history and what I
Speaker 1: would call the basic elements of a codependent relationship. You
Speaker 1: know that they're maladaptive, they're one sided, they're unhealthy. I
Speaker 1: really want to provide a bit of an overview, I guess,
Speaker 1: of some of the warning signs in our own relationships
Speaker 1: and those of people close to us as well, some
Speaker 1: of the things to look out for. I'm going to
Speaker 1: quickly state that although co dependency is not something that
Speaker 1: you can be diagnosed with per se, if you see
Speaker 1: some part of yourself or your own experience in what
Speaker 1: I'm describing, what I'm going to talk about, there is
Speaker 1: a lot of professional help out there for you, and
Speaker 1: there are people that you can talk to. You know,
Speaker 1: you're not going to get a diagnosis, or the person
Speaker 1: that you're speaking about isn't going to get a diagnosis.
Speaker 1: I think dependent personality disorder is probably the closest thing
Speaker 1: that we can get to, and that's essentially describing pervasive,
Speaker 1: you know, psychological dependence on other people, in which someone
Speaker 1: is unable to be independent and unable to meet their
Speaker 1: own emotional needs or make decisions, and needs to receive
Speaker 1: constant approval from others. And I guess that is it's
Speaker 1: unlike codependency in that it doesn't involve reliance on just
Speaker 1: one person. But I think that like the general psychological community,
Speaker 1: you know, the DSM, it hasn't really caught up to
Speaker 1: the fact that dependent personality disorder and codependency are actually
Speaker 1: quite hand in hand. And we speak a lot about
Speaker 1: codependency in terms of addiction, but there still isn't that
Speaker 1: recognition that this is something that is can really affect
Speaker 1: someone's psychological and physical and emotional wellbeing. So let's talk
Speaker 1: about some of the I guess warning signs, some of
Speaker 1: the things to look out for. Firstly, in codependent relationships,
Speaker 1: there is going to be an imbalance of power. If
Speaker 1: you are finding that you are giving much more energy, time, love,
Speaker 1: patience to another person who is really only using you
Speaker 1: for their own needs, that's probably the biggest indicator. So
Speaker 1: according to this clinical psychologist, I think their name was
Speaker 1: coded Derek or something like that, we may feel when
Speaker 1: we're in this situation, if we are the in this situation,
Speaker 1: like we have to save the person from themselves, and
Speaker 1: we feel responsible for their emotional state and their wellbeing.
Speaker 1: You know, you take over their responsibility for themselves and
Speaker 1: you help them pick up the pieces. In that instance
Speaker 1: in which you feel responsible for someone else, they're not
Speaker 1: able to do it without you. They need you, and
Speaker 1: you're kind of stuck. You're in this situation where you're like,
Speaker 1: I'm so stressed, I've lost my independence. It's a probably,
Speaker 1: you know, a fairly big indicator. The relationship is moving
Speaker 1: towards codependence. Another huge indicator, and I feel like this
Speaker 1: is quite obvious, but I just feel like I need
Speaker 1: to state it for the record, is complete emotional exhaustion,
Speaker 1: even physical exhaustion. And what that comes from is essentially
Speaker 1: having to be responsible for another person, a grown adult,
Speaker 1: to the point that caring for yourself is almost the
Speaker 1: second priority, which it never should be. You know, the
Speaker 1: analogy I always use is that when a plane is crashing,
Speaker 1: when a plane is going down, you will never hear
Speaker 1: a flight attendant tell you to put the oxygen mask
Speaker 1: on someone else before yourself. And that goes for everyday
Speaker 1: relationships as well. You should always be helping yourself, making
Speaker 1: sure that you are well before taking on that responsibility
Speaker 1: for others. And if you're feeling like your relationship with
Speaker 1: that person is taking time away from yourself, you know
Speaker 1: that you don't want to answer their calls or the
Speaker 1: text messages because it's going to be disastrous. If you
Speaker 1: feel intense anxiety when they message you, or you stop
Speaker 1: doing what you're doing, you interrupt your plans to see
Speaker 1: them or to help them, that's a huge sign that
Speaker 1: your relationship is codependent, especially if they don't do the
Speaker 1: same for you. I think it's worth acknowledging that when
Speaker 1: we are in these situations, it can be incredibly difficult
Speaker 1: to establish boundaries or even feel that we can put
Speaker 1: ourselves first because we are so wrapped up in our
Speaker 1: responsibility and our sense of loyalty to this other person,
Speaker 1: especially if you know they're your romantic partner, or if
Speaker 1: your mother or your father, or your sibling or your
Speaker 1: best friend. And I did a whole episode on kind
Speaker 1: of how to move forward from this called I think
Speaker 1: it's like about setting boundaries and sticking to them, and
Speaker 1: I think that's really relevant here. So if you are
Speaker 1: really struggling, go and listen to that around setting boundaries
Speaker 1: with someone if it is a really emotionally tumultuous situation.
Speaker 1: But there is a few more signs that I guess
Speaker 1: I just want to go through really quickly, and which
Speaker 1: I think is so worth bringing up here. A lot
Speaker 1: of the signs that we've talked about so far have
Speaker 1: been how the giver feels. You know that you might
Speaker 1: feel like your life revolves around this person, You don't
Speaker 1: have your own space, you feel you know, stuck, you
Speaker 1: feel guilty, you feel shame. But in terms of the taker,
Speaker 1: there are some people who are in codependent relationships who
Speaker 1: are taking from someone else, who might have that realization
Speaker 1: of like, this actually isn't healthy for me, and it
Speaker 1: isn't healthy for them. So these people they may really
Speaker 1: struggle with being alone and also feeling alone. They blame
Speaker 1: the other person for all that is wrong in their life.
Speaker 1: They say things like I couldn't live without you. Their
Speaker 1: behavior might actually escalate in severity when you do try
Speaker 1: to set boundaries or you do try and pull away.
Speaker 1: They may use guilt against you or maintain a pretty
Speaker 1: strong sense of victimhood, even sometimes placing you as the villain.
Speaker 1: And all of this is really manipulative, but it doesn't
Speaker 1: always come from a place that wants to be cruel
Speaker 1: or come from a place that wants to be manipulative.
Speaker 1: It can also just be that they actually don't have
Speaker 1: a strong support system, they don't trust other people, and
Speaker 1: you know, the sad truth is that people will only
Speaker 1: treat you the way that you allow them. So this
Speaker 1: pattern of behavior may have developed over a long period
Speaker 1: of time in which boundaries have not been well established
Speaker 1: or they haven't been respected. And it's not to victim
Speaker 1: blame or blame anyone or assign any stigma to either
Speaker 1: member of this kind of relationship. You know, vulnerability and relationships,
Speaker 1: even addiction, as we were saying before, they're really complex
Speaker 1: and they're really sensitive things. So if you're relating twenty
Speaker 1: of this, either in a relationship with your partner or
Speaker 1: your friend, whoever, please don't blame yourself for this kind
Speaker 1: of relationship. I think we are all just trying our
Speaker 1: best with what we have. But I think that it
Speaker 1: is really important to understand and be aware of what
Speaker 1: this means for us. And I think many of the
Speaker 1: signs are also what we would call the consequences of codependency. Often,
Speaker 1: if you're a clinical psychologist and someone came to you
Speaker 1: and said, my partner is so relyant on me anytime
Speaker 1: anything goes wrong, they need me to be there for them,
Speaker 1: I support them financially. They don't have any other friends.
Speaker 1: But when I need support, they push me away. They're
Speaker 1: going to look at you and say, oh, that's codependent.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a lack of separation, there's a lack
Speaker 1: of individuality, of healthy, healthy coping mechanisms or independence, and
Speaker 1: like I just mentioned, it may even result in the
Speaker 1: giver often giving up money or resources for the other person.
Speaker 1: And there is of course that element of control which
Speaker 1: we may associate with the taker, but actually I, the
Speaker 1: party in this relationship, can promote this to the point
Speaker 1: where it becomes unnatural and unhealthy. So why do these
Speaker 1: relationships happen? They sound quite unnatural, I would say, I
Speaker 1: think it's rare to see a full blown codependent relationship
Speaker 1: in you know, everyday life. They definitely still exist, So
Speaker 1: why is it that some people find themselves in such
Speaker 1: a toxic cycle. Well as the origins of you know,
Speaker 1: the term codependency suggest a huge risk factor or contributor
Speaker 1: is the presence of addiction in one or even both members.
Speaker 1: There was a study conducted in twenty fourteen and it
Speaker 1: found that people who were surveyed who had a family
Speaker 1: member or a personal history of addiction, particularly with alcohol.
Speaker 1: They were more likely to report that they had been
Speaker 1: in a codependent relationship or that they had been codependent
Speaker 1: on someone else. And this study also examined whether men
Speaker 1: or women were more suptable to codependency, and interestingly, these
Speaker 1: relationships were just as common within men and women within
Speaker 1: both genders. That kind of surprised me, I will say,
Speaker 1: because I think that women are often very much stereotyped
Speaker 1: as being more nurturing and natural caregivers and really bad
Speaker 1: at setting boundaries, whatever you want to say. But I
Speaker 1: think that in these scenarios, really, in these situations, everyone
Speaker 1: is just as susceptible as the next, regardless of gender.
Speaker 1: The factors that determine these kinds of relationships have a
Speaker 1: lot more to do with things like your childhood, you know,
Speaker 1: having a history of abuse or abandonment. That's a huge
Speaker 1: predisposing risk factor because often that means that that person,
Speaker 1: whoever it may be, has not been taught what a healthy,
Speaker 1: mutually beneficial relationship looks like. Remember, how we learn to
Speaker 1: treat people be treated is very much modeled on how
Speaker 1: our parents or our early caregivers conducted their relationships or
Speaker 1: treated us and people who have unfortunately experienced abuse or abandonment,
Speaker 1: they themselves become more at risk of finding themselves in
Speaker 1: a codependent relationship, either as the giver or the taker,
Speaker 1: depending on what they lacked or had experienced in childhood. Honestly,
Speaker 1: I think, like many problems like codependency, the root of
Speaker 1: this problem. The cause of this problem is our upbringing
Speaker 1: and our family or childhood environment, especially if they were
Speaker 1: dysfunctional or they didn't provide our core emotional needs. And
Speaker 1: generally speaking, our attachment style patterns that were developed in
Speaker 1: early childhood are really going to influence whether or not
Speaker 1: we end up in this, you know, this kind of scenario.
Speaker 1: With all that in mind, what I really want to
Speaker 1: discuss next is the distinction between codependence and a healthy
Speaker 1: level of dependency that we would expect to see in
Speaker 1: our relationships. I think I've spent the large majority of
Speaker 1: this first bit of this episode really kind of drilling
Speaker 1: into our minds how terrible this can be, and how
Speaker 1: maybe we shouldn't rely on someone or we don't want
Speaker 1: to be deemed as codependent or too close. Obviously that
Speaker 1: is not true, So I really want to discuss that
Speaker 1: distinction between codependence and healthy dependence or interdependency before we
Speaker 1: kind of outline some strategies for disentangling or distancing ourselves
Speaker 1: from codependent relationships. Healthy amount of reliance on someone else
Speaker 1: for support, for encouragement and love is absolutely normal. In fact,
Speaker 1: I think it would be more worrying to to me
Speaker 1: if we were completely detached from others and could never
Speaker 1: rely on someone else to fulfill some aspect of our
Speaker 1: emotional needs. Where social beings, we are pack animals are
Speaker 1: tribal species at our core, and what that means is
Speaker 1: that we crave and we need connections with others. We
Speaker 1: need trust between ourselves and other people to thrive. So
Speaker 1: where can we draw the line between dependence and its
Speaker 1: evil twin, you know, codependency. I think the key distinction
Speaker 1: can be summed up in one word mutual mutual love,
Speaker 1: mutual support, mutual respect, mutual energy, mutual time. Healthy dependence.
Speaker 1: It involves a mutual give and take. It's not one sided.
Speaker 1: Both people are able to receive the support and the
Speaker 1: encouragement and the practical help that they need. And of
Speaker 1: course there are going to be times in which you're
Speaker 1: going to have to support, you know, the other person
Speaker 1: more or they're going to have to support you more
Speaker 1: than you're supporting them. You know, if your parent or
Speaker 1: your sibling is really sick, it makes sense that you
Speaker 1: may be doing more of the emotional and physical labor
Speaker 1: for them at that time. That is nothing to shy
Speaker 1: away from. That is not the point of this episode.
Speaker 1: You know, life is very much defined by its uncertainty
Speaker 1: and its ups and downs, and it's okay if you
Speaker 1: need someone a little bit more at times. You know,
Speaker 1: if you're going through a bit of a crisis or
Speaker 1: something else is going on, that's healthy. It's okay for
Speaker 1: our relationships to kind of peque in troth and to
Speaker 1: sometimes need people more than they need you. But if
Speaker 1: that's happening all the time, that's a problem. I think
Speaker 1: having a healthy level of dependence on others, like I explained,
Speaker 1: you know, being able to have that give or take
Speaker 1: depending on what the other person is going through, Being
Speaker 1: able to call on the people in your life for
Speaker 1: support actually really positive. I don't feel like I need
Speaker 1: to say that, but it does have a lot of
Speaker 1: proven clinical benefits for our wellbeing and our overall outlook
Speaker 1: on life. They contribute to our sense of reliance, our resourcefulness,
Speaker 1: we have a stronger sense of trust in our own abilities,
Speaker 1: we are better at expressing our needs and our emotions,
Speaker 1: and we have greater self esteem when we're able to
Speaker 1: promote healthy independence and healthy dependence in our relationships. And
Speaker 1: that all sounds really positive because it is, it's healthy,
Speaker 1: and it's something that we can pursue. But when it
Speaker 1: emerges as a problem is when you are unable to
Speaker 1: detach you need something else for your support. You know
Speaker 1: this person is everything to you, or you're giving someone
Speaker 1: else everything of you beyond what could possibly be expected
Speaker 1: in any situation. And we have to remember here that
Speaker 1: codependence is maladaptive and it's harmful to both members of
Speaker 1: the relationship. I read an incredible article that explained this
Speaker 1: distinction really well, and it explained the distinction between codependence
Speaker 1: and independence or interdependence more like it as helping versus enabling.
Speaker 1: If you think that your relationship with someone has fallen
Speaker 1: into a giver and a taker situation, ask yourself whether
Speaker 1: your actions and your responses to them are helping them
Speaker 1: or enabling them. You know, if your friend keeps coming
Speaker 1: to you for money but never paying you back, or
Speaker 1: showing any progress towards being financially independent. This may seem
Speaker 1: like you're helping them at the surface level, you know,
Speaker 1: you're helping them through a tough time, but it actually
Speaker 1: may be that you're enabling their dependency on you for assistance.
Speaker 1: I always try and frame my decisions around whether my
Speaker 1: actions are helping someone to become self sufficient, or whether
Speaker 1: I'm doing it for myself because I want to feel better,
Speaker 1: you know, or I'm helping them to the point that
Speaker 1: they you know, they they don't need to help themselves,
Speaker 1: and they don't need to help me, right Like they're
Speaker 1: just reliant on me for something, and they're not able
Speaker 1: to take responsibility for their problems. That's a really tricky
Speaker 1: situation to be in, and I don't think we need
Speaker 1: to apply that perspective to all of our relationships, but
Speaker 1: it is something to be cognizant of. Doesn't mean you
Speaker 1: need to say no or that you can't help someone
Speaker 1: out in a tricky situation. But when it starts to
Speaker 1: look like enaghbling behavior, it probably isn't helping either of you.
Speaker 1: Maybe you're listening to this and you're like, this is me,
Speaker 1: this is me, I'm in this situation. I'm really struggling,
Speaker 1: and you've been able to identify yourself as being in
Speaker 1: a codependent situation, whether that is with a parent, with
Speaker 1: a romantic partner, with a friend, it really doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: So how do you move back to a healthy level
Speaker 1: of interdependency and dependence, and how do we restructure our
Speaker 1: relationship with that person so that it doesn't compromise our identity,
Speaker 1: it doesn't compromise our self esteem or you know, our
Speaker 1: entire lives, our welfare. Healing a relationship from codependency, it's
Speaker 1: going to take time, because it's like separating out someone's
Speaker 1: addiction to you, you know, fighting against your addiction to them.
Speaker 1: All of that is exhausting. It's also neurologically very difficult
Speaker 1: because when we do become reliant on anything, be that
Speaker 1: a drug or a person in this situation, what happens
Speaker 1: to our brain is that our neurons and our synaptic
Speaker 1: pathways they become wired towards wanting that person or whatever
Speaker 1: it is that we're addicted to. It's a process called
Speaker 1: long term tentiation, whereby the more that we activate a
Speaker 1: certain pathway, the stronger it becomes, and the harder it
Speaker 1: is to break that pattern. Or consumption, and when those
Speaker 1: pathways are no longer activated. You know, when someone is
Speaker 1: having a problem and they go, oh my gosh, I
Speaker 1: cannot call that person, or when someone calls you with
Speaker 1: a problem and you go, oh my gosh, I can't
Speaker 1: help you because this is unhealthy, it's distressing. The first
Speaker 1: step I think I would always recommend is to get
Speaker 1: some outside help or an outside an objective perspective on
Speaker 1: the relationship in question and the problem that you're facing.
Speaker 1: It can be very difficult to be honest with ourselves
Speaker 1: when a situation is so emotionally charged and at times
Speaker 1: probably even tense or dangerous. So going to you know,
Speaker 1: a trusted friend, a mentor a mental health professional based
Speaker 1: on whatever resources you have, just someone who's separate from
Speaker 1: the situation. It's sometimes really important because it gives you
Speaker 1: a logical bird's eye view, so you can see clearly
Speaker 1: why this scenario is hurting you, why it's hurting the
Speaker 1: other person, why. It's probably really good if you get
Speaker 1: some space, and you know, they may also just have
Speaker 1: some really good advice and they may be able to
Speaker 1: provide some options to you that you haven't considered. The
Speaker 1: next step that I think is important is to ground
Speaker 1: yourself and why you have acknowledged that this is maladaptive
Speaker 1: and unhealthy, and find a way to make your thoughts
Speaker 1: and your feelings on the matter tangible. I think this
Speaker 1: applies to even situations beyond codependency, any problem that you have,
Speaker 1: anything you're trying to solve, making a notes list or
Speaker 1: journaling to yourself about how you feel, why this is difficult,
Speaker 1: why you want to change. It's so much easier to
Speaker 1: motivate yourself or to move through a difficult transition when
Speaker 1: you have some written reminder about why you need to
Speaker 1: do something, why you are making that change. This list,
Speaker 1: you know, it might include things in this situation like
Speaker 1: I don't like how I'm feeling stuck, or in this relationship,
Speaker 1: I'm not able to promote my independence or I'm not
Speaker 1: able to be independent, or situations or statements about how
Speaker 1: the situation is making you feel and why it needs
Speaker 1: to change, and that way you can come back to
Speaker 1: it whenever you feel yourself slipping back into old pabits
Speaker 1: or old patterns. I think the next really valuable step
Speaker 1: to take, And if you've listened to my Boundaries episode,
Speaker 1: this may sound really familiar it's to confront the person
Speaker 1: and to confront the problem and have an honest conversation.
Speaker 1: I know it's really scary, I've done it before. It
Speaker 1: is terrifying, But I think one of the worst feelings
Speaker 1: in the world is when someone makes a decision without
Speaker 1: consulting you or completely ghosts to you or shuts you out. Obviously,
Speaker 1: that's necessary sometimes, and there are people who are just
Speaker 1: really bad for our health, and you can make that
Speaker 1: call based on your own personal appraisal of the situation
Speaker 1: or the extent of the codependency. But if the situation
Speaker 1: allows it, I personally believe it's actually quite almost cruel.
Speaker 1: I think to leave someone with no explanation or discussion,
Speaker 1: and you don't need to treat it as a two
Speaker 1: way street or like the decision is up for debate.
Speaker 1: Just simply lay out the facts and your feelings and
Speaker 1: why you feel like you would both benefit from this,
Speaker 1: why you would like your situation to change, and leave
Speaker 1: it at that. Leave it at that, you don't need
Speaker 1: to answer questions, you don't need to justify anything, and
Speaker 1: that person may actually surprise you and say, you know,
Speaker 1: like I've actually been feeling this way as well, and
Speaker 1: I want our relationship to be healthier, or you know,
Speaker 1: I want this for us. But I think honesty is
Speaker 1: always the best policy in emotionally sensitive situations, whatever they
Speaker 1: may be. I think now comes the difficult part, which
Speaker 1: is sticking to your guns, respecting your own boundaries, learning
Speaker 1: to say no when that person pushes up against what
Speaker 1: you have decided to do. It's okay to fail a
Speaker 1: few times to find you know that separation hard or
Speaker 1: even painful. Like I said, you're neurologically and physically inclined
Speaker 1: to feel this way. But if as the giver you're
Speaker 1: still answering their calls at any time at the night,
Speaker 1: or as the taker, you're finding that your emotional state
Speaker 1: is based on how that person is treating you or
Speaker 1: the attention they're giving you, and you cannot fight that urge,
Speaker 1: then the boundary I don't think has been fully set,
Speaker 1: or it hasn't been fully respected. So make some non
Speaker 1: negotiables or some rules for yourself in these situations, and
Speaker 1: I mean rules, not things that you would like to do,
Speaker 1: but tangible decisions you're going to be accountable to yourself for.
Speaker 1: It might also help to have someone else who can
Speaker 1: kind of help you stay on track, or who you
Speaker 1: can kind of answer to or update them on your progress,
Speaker 1: and who can help you kind of question your decisions
Speaker 1: not necessarily make you feel guilty, but make you appreciate
Speaker 1: the reasoning behind maybe why you're struggling to keep that
Speaker 1: boundary after a slip up, whatever it may be, it's
Speaker 1: also really crucial to reflect on how it's left you feeling.
Speaker 1: Did you let someone back into your life in the
Speaker 1: way that you didn't necessarily want, or if you felt
Speaker 1: that you came back to someone you didn't want to
Speaker 1: be reliant on. Don't suppress that feeling. Don't suppress that shame,
Speaker 1: almost sit with it. Process it. Think about how you
Speaker 1: might change your future actions to avoid this situation. Be
Speaker 1: future looking, imagine where you would like to be. Be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: last night, I went over to this person's house and
Speaker 1: I helped them out, even though I know this is codependent,
Speaker 1: even though I really want some separation, and now I
Speaker 1: feel really bad. I feel really really crap about myself.
Speaker 1: Instead of being like, oh my god, I don't want
Speaker 1: to feel that. That's really uncomfortable, allow yourself to feel
Speaker 1: that way and then look to the future and I
Speaker 1: guess that applies for everything, not just baking fear of codependency.
Speaker 1: When we look towards the future, our progress is going
Speaker 1: to be more steady. Obviously, you can follow these steps,
Speaker 1: you can take my advice, do everything right. But the
Speaker 1: thing is about any relationship is that it's always complicated,
Speaker 1: it's always nuanced, and you know what you're going through
Speaker 1: more than I ever could. So take it slow, be
Speaker 1: kind to yourself, and I really hope that this information
Speaker 1: has helped you. I feel like I've learnt so much
Speaker 1: from this discussion and this research, especially about so many
Speaker 1: of the misconcepts around codependency and how we can distinguish
Speaker 1: it from healthy dependency and interdependency. It's just such a
Speaker 1: fascinating topic, especially for our twenties, where I feel like
Speaker 1: a lot of us have really intense relationships with people,
Speaker 1: whether that is really good friends or the people that
Speaker 1: we're dating, and it can really feel like it's just
Speaker 1: us two in this bubble and one of us is
Speaker 1: really reliant on the other person and is taking so
Speaker 1: much and the other person can't leave, and it's just
Speaker 1: really emotionally volatile. So if you can relate, you deserve
Speaker 1: a lot of credit. I'm sure it's really difficult, but
Speaker 1: hopefully this episode gave you some sense of the future
Speaker 1: and some sense of what you can do. Thank you
Speaker 1: for listening today. I think that's all that we have
Speaker 1: time for. I'm really hopeful and yeah, hoping that you
Speaker 1: enjoyed it. I really did as well. So if you
Speaker 1: did enjoy this episode, if you learned something that's the
Speaker 1: most important, please feel free to leave a five star
Speaker 1: review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now.
Speaker 1: If you want to follow us on Instagram, that's where
Speaker 1: I let my listeners decide what I record for the
Speaker 1: next week, so you can contribute to what you want
Speaker 1: to hear. And thank you so much for listening. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for tuning in. I feel very grateful
Speaker 1: that people want to hear what we're discussing, and people
Speaker 1: are interested in these topics as much as I am,
Speaker 1: and are willing to learn as much as I really
Speaker 1: like learning. So thank you so much for joining us
Speaker 1: for this journey, and have an absolutely lovely week.