1
00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:09,280
Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,

2
00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,280
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big

3
00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:16,880
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they

4
00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:25,040
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, or welcome back to

5
00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:29,440
Speaker 1: the show, or welcome back to the podcast new listeners,

6
00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,639
Speaker 1: old listeners, wherever you are in the world. I'm so

7
00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:38,680
Speaker 1: excited for today's episode because today we are talking about

8
00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:44,760
Speaker 1: the idea or the psychological construct of cod dependency, and

9
00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,800
Speaker 1: not just in romantic relationships, but also in other fundamental

10
00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:55,240
Speaker 1: interpersonal relationships, particularly our friendships and with our family. I

11
00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,640
Speaker 1: think that codependency can show up in so many facets

12
00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,640
Speaker 1: of our social life lives. And although there is a

13
00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,800
Speaker 1: healthy amount of dependency and very real reasons why that

14
00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,600
Speaker 1: kind of turns into codependency, when it's taken to extremes,

15
00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:16,320
Speaker 1: when it's uncontrollable, what can emerge are pretty I would say,

16
00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:22,520
Speaker 1: parasitic symbiotic relationships that restrict our lives. It is a

17
00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,880
Speaker 1: very nuanced idea and a very nuanced concept. And I

18
00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,679
Speaker 1: get this topic requested of me all the time, all

19
00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:32,920
Speaker 1: the time, so it must be bothering some of us

20
00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,280
Speaker 1: out there. And I honestly don't know why I haven't

21
00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,319
Speaker 1: done it sooner, because it is such a crucial and

22
00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:43,120
Speaker 1: valuable discussion that needs to be had in this decade

23
00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,520
Speaker 1: of our lives. I also think another reason I was

24
00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,640
Speaker 1: really cool to almost do an episode on this, and

25
00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,640
Speaker 1: the reason I wanted to discuss the idea of codependency,

26
00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,640
Speaker 1: is because I think that its meaning has been incredibly

27
00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,400
Speaker 1: skewed by misinterpretations on the in in pop culture across

28
00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,880
Speaker 1: social media, and when we use the term codependency, it's

29
00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,440
Speaker 1: often really casual and flippant, and from the research that

30
00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,720
Speaker 1: I've done, I've just come to realize it's so much

31
00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,760
Speaker 1: more than that. So hopefully we can set the meaning

32
00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,480
Speaker 1: straight in this episode and kind of dive into all

33
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,600
Speaker 1: of the psychology that is the basis of this concept

34
00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,560
Speaker 1: and this idea, especially how it can become visible and

35
00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,760
Speaker 1: can become a problem in our friendships and in our relationships.

36
00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,480
Speaker 1: So we're going to discuss, of course, the history behind

37
00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:42,080
Speaker 1: the term codependency, how it actually found its beginnings in

38
00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,840
Speaker 1: AA meetings of all places, how it shows up in

39
00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,919
Speaker 1: our lives, how it manifests in our relationships. I guess

40
00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,359
Speaker 1: also some of the warning science and some of the

41
00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:58,080
Speaker 1: causes of this experience of codependency, specifically to do with

42
00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,680
Speaker 1: our upbringing and childhood attachment. But I also want to

43
00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:07,400
Speaker 1: talk about healthy dependency, interdependency, and what it really means

44
00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:12,440
Speaker 1: to rely on to love and trust other people in

45
00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,440
Speaker 1: a way that is sustainable and healthy in what that

46
00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,560
Speaker 1: means for our lives. But if you're listening to this

47
00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,840
Speaker 1: with a bit of fear, maybe that a relationship of

48
00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:26,400
Speaker 1: yours is becoming codependent, not to worry, because I also

49
00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,560
Speaker 1: really want to rehash some of the discussions that we've

50
00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,440
Speaker 1: had before around boundaries and how to separate yourself and

51
00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:37,280
Speaker 1: someone you may be codependent with and restore a healthy

52
00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,360
Speaker 1: amount of reliance and support between you and another person.

53
00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,840
Speaker 1: This topic is so relevant for our twenties. I feel

54
00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,680
Speaker 1: like in this decade we are filled with so many

55
00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:53,440
Speaker 1: emotions and deep feelings and realizations, but also insecurities and

56
00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,840
Speaker 1: quite frankly, things that we need help with, things that

57
00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,920
Speaker 1: we haven't yet figured out. And the intensity of close

58
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,720
Speaker 1: relationships that we have in this decade, be that platonic

59
00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,040
Speaker 1: with our family or intimate, those relationships can be such

60
00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,360
Speaker 1: a soothing band aid almost for so many of our

61
00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:18,480
Speaker 1: worries and concerns, but often when we cling to people

62
00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,240
Speaker 1: in times of uncertainty, it can create problems. You know.

63
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,880
Speaker 1: I've had partners and friends who have been an absolute

64
00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,960
Speaker 1: lifeline for me in periods of crisis. I felt like

65
00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,080
Speaker 1: I couldn't live without them. But I think it's important

66
00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,799
Speaker 1: to know when that is stepping into an unhealthy terrain

67
00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,240
Speaker 1: and could actually potentially undermine what is best for us.

68
00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:45,520
Speaker 1: So a discussion around codependency and how it manifests in

69
00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:47,919
Speaker 1: the relationships we have, I think is so crucial And

70
00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,760
Speaker 1: if you can relate well, you're definitely in the right place,

71
00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:53,560
Speaker 1: I guess, And in for a treat because there's so

72
00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,159
Speaker 1: much fascinating stuff behind the scenes of what we typically

73
00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,479
Speaker 1: see or think of codependency, and so many to I guess,

74
00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,400
Speaker 1: discuss and explore. So get ready, strap in. I'm so

75
00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,159
Speaker 1: excited for this deep dive and the discussion and all

76
00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:18,800
Speaker 1: that is to come. Like we always do, let's start

77
00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:24,599
Speaker 1: this discussion, this exploration by getting our basics downpat what

78
00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:29,719
Speaker 1: is codependency and what is the psychological basis I guess

79
00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:35,120
Speaker 1: behind its existence and presentation in our lives. So essentially,

80
00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:41,640
Speaker 1: codependency is an unhealthy dysfunctional relationship that is unbalanced, whereby

81
00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,960
Speaker 1: one person has assumed the role of the giver or

82
00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,360
Speaker 1: the provider. There's someone who is willing to give and

83
00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:53,640
Speaker 1: sacrifice everything for another person, whereas the other individual and

84
00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,000
Speaker 1: this relationship is the taker. I think the first major

85
00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:02,000
Speaker 1: element of this kind of relationship is that it is unhealthy.

86
00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:07,359
Speaker 1: I think when we typically think about codependency as a society,

87
00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,479
Speaker 1: as a community of people who have access to the

88
00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,039
Speaker 1: internet and whatnot, we tend to imagine people who spend

89
00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,520
Speaker 1: a lot of time together who are really inseparable. You know,

90
00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,200
Speaker 1: you may have a best friend who you see every

91
00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,960
Speaker 1: day and you do everything with and you talk for

92
00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,680
Speaker 1: hours and you can't imagine your life without. That isn't

93
00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:31,880
Speaker 1: inherently unhealthy or codependent. If both people are equally reliant

94
00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,000
Speaker 1: on each other, or the relationship is what we would

95
00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,000
Speaker 1: call mutually beneficial. You know, there is a balanced level

96
00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:44,520
Speaker 1: of support and compassion from both parties. It becomes unhealthy

97
00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:50,320
Speaker 1: and it becomes codependent. When the balancing act is distributed

98
00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,560
Speaker 1: or disturbed and it shifts in one person's favor, you know,

99
00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,640
Speaker 1: it's no longer even. And this is really important. When

100
00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,600
Speaker 1: we consider the second element of code dependent, which is

101
00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,360
Speaker 1: that all the relationships that are codependent are seen as

102
00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,920
Speaker 1: one sided, you know, one person being the giver, one

103
00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:13,320
Speaker 1: person being the taker. That doesn't mean that both parties

104
00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:17,080
Speaker 1: don't actually get something from the arrangement, because the relationship

105
00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,080
Speaker 1: that they have struck may mean that each was equally

106
00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,560
Speaker 1: as dependent for different reasons. I don't think this is

107
00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,800
Speaker 1: to make a generalization about every codependent relationship, you know.

108
00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,440
Speaker 1: I think when we talk about abusive relationships or abuse,

109
00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:37,200
Speaker 1: we are moving away from simply, you know, codependency, and

110
00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,440
Speaker 1: sometimes they come hand in hand, especially when we consider

111
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,400
Speaker 1: emotional abuse. But I think most people who we would

112
00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:49,320
Speaker 1: consider as codependent, the nature of their codependency rests on

113
00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:55,760
Speaker 1: that truth that both parties are receiving something, regardless of

114
00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:03,320
Speaker 1: whether they recognize that consciously. For example, in any codependent situation,

115
00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,040
Speaker 1: we have that giver, we have that taker, and each

116
00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,560
Speaker 1: person has taken up one of those roles. That's essentially

117
00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,920
Speaker 1: the equation of any codependent relationship. And although I think

118
00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,520
Speaker 1: we may take pity on the giver because they're being

119
00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,720
Speaker 1: really self sacrificing, maybe they're unable to set boundaries, or

120
00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,120
Speaker 1: they're exhausted by their counterparts, need to take from them

121
00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:29,800
Speaker 1: or be reliant on them. They may get some satisfaction

122
00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,360
Speaker 1: from providing this one sided support to the taker, or

123
00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:37,480
Speaker 1: they may feel responsible for their partner or their parents

124
00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,880
Speaker 1: or their friends, and all that comes without their thoughts,

125
00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,280
Speaker 1: their feelings and their actions. And in contrast, you know,

126
00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:50,760
Speaker 1: the taker receives essentially unconditional love and support, you know, patience, money, forgiveness,

127
00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,000
Speaker 1: whatever they need, and they are willing to accept that.

128
00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,920
Speaker 1: I think the term codependent, like I said, is often

129
00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,199
Speaker 1: lobbied at people to describe them as kind of needy

130
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,800
Speaker 1: or really clingy, but it is so much more than that,

131
00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,280
Speaker 1: and it's often encouraged in some way in some ways

132
00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,480
Speaker 1: by the giver and also the taker as well, I guess,

133
00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,960
Speaker 1: because they share in the responsibility and need for each other.

134
00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,720
Speaker 1: I saw it described really well by this person called

135
00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,160
Speaker 1: doctor leg in Medical News today, and what they said

136
00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:30,040
Speaker 1: essentially was that a codependent relationship occurs when one person

137
00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,000
Speaker 1: needs the other, who in turn needs to be needed.

138
00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:39,680
Speaker 1: Like I said before, codependency it's not just reserved for

139
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,440
Speaker 1: romantic relationships as we may assume. It can really take

140
00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:51,080
Speaker 1: place in any relationship which becomes unbalanced. Friendships, work relationships,

141
00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:55,120
Speaker 1: family relationships with our parents, with our siblings, with our

142
00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,640
Speaker 1: aunts and uncles, anyone that you have some kind of

143
00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:03,040
Speaker 1: social interaction with. I often think about the people who

144
00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,679
Speaker 1: message me or tell me about friends of theirs who

145
00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,840
Speaker 1: are absolutely reliant on them for all emotional support, and

146
00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:16,360
Speaker 1: they're constantly sacrificing their time and their energy to almost

147
00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:21,080
Speaker 1: tend to this person. Whereas when they have problems or issues,

148
00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,400
Speaker 1: that friend is never there for them. They're never willing

149
00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:29,600
Speaker 1: to make those sacrifices. Their friend is completely dependent on them,

150
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,120
Speaker 1: whilst the other person just tess to bear that and

151
00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,680
Speaker 1: either can't do something or doesn't feel right about asking

152
00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:44,120
Speaker 1: for that reciprocation. Withdrawing from that type of person, someone

153
00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:49,280
Speaker 1: who is codependent on you can be really, really difficult,

154
00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,040
Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about that later. But interestingly,

155
00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,680
Speaker 1: before we jump into that, I think some of the

156
00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:01,080
Speaker 1: history is quite fascinating. You know, the term codependent codependency,

157
00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,680
Speaker 1: It actually came out of research on the relationships between

158
00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,560
Speaker 1: people who were suffering from addiction and the people that

159
00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,000
Speaker 1: were close to them in their lives. That's where the

160
00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:17,480
Speaker 1: term first appeared Amongst researchers who were studying people with addiction,

161
00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:23,240
Speaker 1: and they used it to describe the almost lopsided or

162
00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:27,720
Speaker 1: you know, one sided, enabling relationships between someone who was struggling,

163
00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,800
Speaker 1: perhaps with alcohol abuse or substance abuse and the people,

164
00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,959
Speaker 1: you know, normally family and partners, who feel that they

165
00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,000
Speaker 1: have to give in to that person's struggles and they

166
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,319
Speaker 1: have to help them. Then it kind of moved its

167
00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:46,600
Speaker 1: way into AA alcoholics anonymous meetings, and then it kind

168
00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,240
Speaker 1: of became a common term through that as it became

169
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,640
Speaker 1: more accessible to people. And I guess now it's been

170
00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,319
Speaker 1: embraced by pop culture and pop you know and psychobabble

171
00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,680
Speaker 1: to describe something that I think it really wasn't intended

172
00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:04,120
Speaker 1: to represent. You know. Essentially, it was used to describe

173
00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:09,439
Speaker 1: enabling relationships, you know, where one person is enabling another

174
00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,400
Speaker 1: person's dependence on them or their dependence on something like

175
00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:18,800
Speaker 1: drugs or alcohol. This actually really surprised me when I

176
00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,839
Speaker 1: learned this, because I think, like most people, I had

177
00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:26,400
Speaker 1: a very naive, i would say, understanding of what it was.

178
00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,559
Speaker 1: I used it very casually, but it is a lot

179
00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:34,360
Speaker 1: more severe and intricate than that. So now that we

180
00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,480
Speaker 1: kind of know some of the history and what I

181
00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,840
Speaker 1: would call the basic elements of a codependent relationship. You

182
00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:45,360
Speaker 1: know that they're maladaptive, they're one sided, they're unhealthy. I

183
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,400
Speaker 1: really want to provide a bit of an overview, I guess,

184
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,319
Speaker 1: of some of the warning signs in our own relationships

185
00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,720
Speaker 1: and those of people close to us as well, some

186
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,280
Speaker 1: of the things to look out for. I'm going to

187
00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,400
Speaker 1: quickly state that although co dependency is not something that

188
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:06,480
Speaker 1: you can be diagnosed with per se, if you see

189
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,560
Speaker 1: some part of yourself or your own experience in what

190
00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,360
Speaker 1: I'm describing, what I'm going to talk about, there is

191
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,480
Speaker 1: a lot of professional help out there for you, and

192
00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,280
Speaker 1: there are people that you can talk to. You know,

193
00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,320
Speaker 1: you're not going to get a diagnosis, or the person

194
00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,480
Speaker 1: that you're speaking about isn't going to get a diagnosis.

195
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,760
Speaker 1: I think dependent personality disorder is probably the closest thing

196
00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:33,840
Speaker 1: that we can get to, and that's essentially describing pervasive,

197
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,600
Speaker 1: you know, psychological dependence on other people, in which someone

198
00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,679
Speaker 1: is unable to be independent and unable to meet their

199
00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,040
Speaker 1: own emotional needs or make decisions, and needs to receive

200
00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:49,480
Speaker 1: constant approval from others. And I guess that is it's

201
00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,960
Speaker 1: unlike codependency in that it doesn't involve reliance on just

202
00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,800
Speaker 1: one person. But I think that like the general psychological community,

203
00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,560
Speaker 1: you know, the DSM, it hasn't really caught up to

204
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:05,040
Speaker 1: the fact that dependent personality disorder and codependency are actually

205
00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,400
Speaker 1: quite hand in hand. And we speak a lot about

206
00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,120
Speaker 1: codependency in terms of addiction, but there still isn't that

207
00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,720
Speaker 1: recognition that this is something that is can really affect

208
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,680
Speaker 1: someone's psychological and physical and emotional wellbeing. So let's talk

209
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,160
Speaker 1: about some of the I guess warning signs, some of

210
00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:28,240
Speaker 1: the things to look out for. Firstly, in codependent relationships,

211
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,360
Speaker 1: there is going to be an imbalance of power. If

212
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:38,800
Speaker 1: you are finding that you are giving much more energy, time, love,

213
00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:44,840
Speaker 1: patience to another person who is really only using you

214
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:49,680
Speaker 1: for their own needs, that's probably the biggest indicator. So

215
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,600
Speaker 1: according to this clinical psychologist, I think their name was

216
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,120
Speaker 1: coded Derek or something like that, we may feel when

217
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,480
Speaker 1: we're in this situation, if we are the in this situation,

218
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:06,240
Speaker 1: like we have to save the person from themselves, and

219
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,680
Speaker 1: we feel responsible for their emotional state and their wellbeing.

220
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,640
Speaker 1: You know, you take over their responsibility for themselves and

221
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,320
Speaker 1: you help them pick up the pieces. In that instance

222
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,880
Speaker 1: in which you feel responsible for someone else, they're not

223
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,920
Speaker 1: able to do it without you. They need you, and

224
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,440
Speaker 1: you're kind of stuck. You're in this situation where you're like,

225
00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,920
Speaker 1: I'm so stressed, I've lost my independence. It's a probably,

226
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,400
Speaker 1: you know, a fairly big indicator. The relationship is moving

227
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:41,120
Speaker 1: towards codependence. Another huge indicator, and I feel like this

228
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,400
Speaker 1: is quite obvious, but I just feel like I need

229
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:47,920
Speaker 1: to state it for the record, is complete emotional exhaustion,

230
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:53,000
Speaker 1: even physical exhaustion. And what that comes from is essentially

231
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,920
Speaker 1: having to be responsible for another person, a grown adult,

232
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,760
Speaker 1: to the point that caring for yourself is almost the

233
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,160
Speaker 1: second priority, which it never should be. You know, the

234
00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,360
Speaker 1: analogy I always use is that when a plane is crashing,

235
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,600
Speaker 1: when a plane is going down, you will never hear

236
00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,840
Speaker 1: a flight attendant tell you to put the oxygen mask

237
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:19,200
Speaker 1: on someone else before yourself. And that goes for everyday

238
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,320
Speaker 1: relationships as well. You should always be helping yourself, making

239
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,760
Speaker 1: sure that you are well before taking on that responsibility

240
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,480
Speaker 1: for others. And if you're feeling like your relationship with

241
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,240
Speaker 1: that person is taking time away from yourself, you know

242
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,040
Speaker 1: that you don't want to answer their calls or the

243
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,160
Speaker 1: text messages because it's going to be disastrous. If you

244
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,120
Speaker 1: feel intense anxiety when they message you, or you stop

245
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,040
Speaker 1: doing what you're doing, you interrupt your plans to see

246
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,080
Speaker 1: them or to help them, that's a huge sign that

247
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,760
Speaker 1: your relationship is codependent, especially if they don't do the

248
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,920
Speaker 1: same for you. I think it's worth acknowledging that when

249
00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:59,160
Speaker 1: we are in these situations, it can be incredibly difficult

250
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,040
Speaker 1: to establish boundaries or even feel that we can put

251
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,920
Speaker 1: ourselves first because we are so wrapped up in our

252
00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,960
Speaker 1: responsibility and our sense of loyalty to this other person,

253
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,840
Speaker 1: especially if you know they're your romantic partner, or if

254
00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,600
Speaker 1: your mother or your father, or your sibling or your

255
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,240
Speaker 1: best friend. And I did a whole episode on kind

256
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,560
Speaker 1: of how to move forward from this called I think

257
00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,000
Speaker 1: it's like about setting boundaries and sticking to them, and

258
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,600
Speaker 1: I think that's really relevant here. So if you are

259
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,600
Speaker 1: really struggling, go and listen to that around setting boundaries

260
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,639
Speaker 1: with someone if it is a really emotionally tumultuous situation.

261
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:41,880
Speaker 1: But there is a few more signs that I guess

262
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:43,720
Speaker 1: I just want to go through really quickly, and which

263
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,760
Speaker 1: I think is so worth bringing up here. A lot

264
00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,320
Speaker 1: of the signs that we've talked about so far have

265
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,000
Speaker 1: been how the giver feels. You know that you might

266
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,000
Speaker 1: feel like your life revolves around this person, You don't

267
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,320
Speaker 1: have your own space, you feel you know, stuck, you

268
00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:02,040
Speaker 1: feel guilty, you feel shame. But in terms of the taker,

269
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,679
Speaker 1: there are some people who are in codependent relationships who

270
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,919
Speaker 1: are taking from someone else, who might have that realization

271
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,719
Speaker 1: of like, this actually isn't healthy for me, and it

272
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:16,960
Speaker 1: isn't healthy for them. So these people they may really

273
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:22,639
Speaker 1: struggle with being alone and also feeling alone. They blame

274
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,720
Speaker 1: the other person for all that is wrong in their life.

275
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,440
Speaker 1: They say things like I couldn't live without you. Their

276
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:34,480
Speaker 1: behavior might actually escalate in severity when you do try

277
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,480
Speaker 1: to set boundaries or you do try and pull away.

278
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:43,399
Speaker 1: They may use guilt against you or maintain a pretty

279
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,800
Speaker 1: strong sense of victimhood, even sometimes placing you as the villain.

280
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:53,440
Speaker 1: And all of this is really manipulative, but it doesn't

281
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,879
Speaker 1: always come from a place that wants to be cruel

282
00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,120
Speaker 1: or come from a place that wants to be manipulative.

283
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,360
Speaker 1: It can also just be that they actually don't have

284
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,640
Speaker 1: a strong support system, they don't trust other people, and

285
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,479
Speaker 1: you know, the sad truth is that people will only

286
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,000
Speaker 1: treat you the way that you allow them. So this

287
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,320
Speaker 1: pattern of behavior may have developed over a long period

288
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,960
Speaker 1: of time in which boundaries have not been well established

289
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,399
Speaker 1: or they haven't been respected. And it's not to victim

290
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:30,280
Speaker 1: blame or blame anyone or assign any stigma to either

291
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 1: member of this kind of relationship. You know, vulnerability and relationships,

292
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,520
Speaker 1: even addiction, as we were saying before, they're really complex

293
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,639
Speaker 1: and they're really sensitive things. So if you're relating twenty

294
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,359
Speaker 1: of this, either in a relationship with your partner or

295
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,760
Speaker 1: your friend, whoever, please don't blame yourself for this kind

296
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,160
Speaker 1: of relationship. I think we are all just trying our

297
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,399
Speaker 1: best with what we have. But I think that it

298
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,120
Speaker 1: is really important to understand and be aware of what

299
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,000
Speaker 1: this means for us. And I think many of the

300
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:12,120
Speaker 1: signs are also what we would call the consequences of codependency. Often,

301
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,679
Speaker 1: if you're a clinical psychologist and someone came to you

302
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,000
Speaker 1: and said, my partner is so relyant on me anytime

303
00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,160
Speaker 1: anything goes wrong, they need me to be there for them,

304
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,040
Speaker 1: I support them financially. They don't have any other friends.

305
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,280
Speaker 1: But when I need support, they push me away. They're

306
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,480
Speaker 1: going to look at you and say, oh, that's codependent.

307
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,760
Speaker 1: You know, there's a lack of separation, there's a lack

308
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:40,840
Speaker 1: of individuality, of healthy, healthy coping mechanisms or independence, and

309
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,040
Speaker 1: like I just mentioned, it may even result in the

310
00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,479
Speaker 1: giver often giving up money or resources for the other person.

311
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,200
Speaker 1: And there is of course that element of control which

312
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,639
Speaker 1: we may associate with the taker, but actually I, the

313
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 1: party in this relationship, can promote this to the point

314
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,680
Speaker 1: where it becomes unnatural and unhealthy. So why do these

315
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,919
Speaker 1: relationships happen? They sound quite unnatural, I would say, I

316
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,960
Speaker 1: think it's rare to see a full blown codependent relationship

317
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 1: in you know, everyday life. They definitely still exist, So

318
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 1: why is it that some people find themselves in such

319
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 1: a toxic cycle. Well as the origins of you know,

320
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:28,560
Speaker 1: the term codependency suggest a huge risk factor or contributor

321
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 1: is the presence of addiction in one or even both members.

322
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,159
Speaker 1: There was a study conducted in twenty fourteen and it

323
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 1: found that people who were surveyed who had a family

324
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 1: member or a personal history of addiction, particularly with alcohol.

325
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,840
Speaker 1: They were more likely to report that they had been

326
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,400
Speaker 1: in a codependent relationship or that they had been codependent

327
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 1: on someone else. And this study also examined whether men

328
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 1: or women were more suptable to codependency, and interestingly, these

329
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 1: relationships were just as common within men and women within

330
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,200
Speaker 1: both genders. That kind of surprised me, I will say,

331
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 1: because I think that women are often very much stereotyped

332
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:21,160
Speaker 1: as being more nurturing and natural caregivers and really bad

333
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 1: at setting boundaries, whatever you want to say. But I

334
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,640
Speaker 1: think that in these scenarios, really, in these situations, everyone

335
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 1: is just as susceptible as the next, regardless of gender.

336
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 1: The factors that determine these kinds of relationships have a

337
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: lot more to do with things like your childhood, you know,

338
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 1: having a history of abuse or abandonment. That's a huge

339
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 1: predisposing risk factor because often that means that that person,

340
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 1: whoever it may be, has not been taught what a healthy,

341
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 1: mutually beneficial relationship looks like. Remember, how we learn to

342
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 1: treat people be treated is very much modeled on how

343
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:08,639
Speaker 1: our parents or our early caregivers conducted their relationships or

344
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 1: treated us and people who have unfortunately experienced abuse or abandonment,

345
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 1: they themselves become more at risk of finding themselves in

346
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 1: a codependent relationship, either as the giver or the taker,

347
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 1: depending on what they lacked or had experienced in childhood. Honestly,

348
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 1: I think, like many problems like codependency, the root of

349
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: this problem. The cause of this problem is our upbringing

350
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 1: and our family or childhood environment, especially if they were

351
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: dysfunctional or they didn't provide our core emotional needs. And

352
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: generally speaking, our attachment style patterns that were developed in

353
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 1: early childhood are really going to influence whether or not

354
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 1: we end up in this, you know, this kind of scenario.

355
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: With all that in mind, what I really want to

356
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 1: discuss next is the distinction between codependence and a healthy

357
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 1: level of dependency that we would expect to see in

358
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,479
Speaker 1: our relationships. I think I've spent the large majority of

359
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 1: this first bit of this episode really kind of drilling

360
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 1: into our minds how terrible this can be, and how

361
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 1: maybe we shouldn't rely on someone or we don't want

362
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 1: to be deemed as codependent or too close. Obviously that

363
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: is not true, So I really want to discuss that

364
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: distinction between codependence and healthy dependence or interdependency before we

365
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 1: kind of outline some strategies for disentangling or distancing ourselves

366
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: from codependent relationships. Healthy amount of reliance on someone else

367
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 1: for support, for encouragement and love is absolutely normal. In fact,

368
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 1: I think it would be more worrying to to me

369
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: if we were completely detached from others and could never

370
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: rely on someone else to fulfill some aspect of our

371
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 1: emotional needs. Where social beings, we are pack animals are

372
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 1: tribal species at our core, and what that means is

373
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: that we crave and we need connections with others. We

374
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: need trust between ourselves and other people to thrive. So

375
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: where can we draw the line between dependence and its

376
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 1: evil twin, you know, codependency. I think the key distinction

377
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 1: can be summed up in one word mutual mutual love,

378
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: mutual support, mutual respect, mutual energy, mutual time. Healthy dependence.

379
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: It involves a mutual give and take. It's not one sided.

380
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 1: Both people are able to receive the support and the

381
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 1: encouragement and the practical help that they need. And of

382
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 1: course there are going to be times in which you're

383
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: going to have to support, you know, the other person

384
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 1: more or they're going to have to support you more

385
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: than you're supporting them. You know, if your parent or

386
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: your sibling is really sick, it makes sense that you

387
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 1: may be doing more of the emotional and physical labor

388
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: for them at that time. That is nothing to shy

389
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: away from. That is not the point of this episode.

390
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: You know, life is very much defined by its uncertainty

391
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,199
Speaker 1: and its ups and downs, and it's okay if you

392
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 1: need someone a little bit more at times. You know,

393
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: if you're going through a bit of a crisis or

394
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: something else is going on, that's healthy. It's okay for

395
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 1: our relationships to kind of peque in troth and to

396
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 1: sometimes need people more than they need you. But if

397
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 1: that's happening all the time, that's a problem. I think

398
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: having a healthy level of dependence on others, like I explained,

399
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: you know, being able to have that give or take

400
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: depending on what the other person is going through, Being

401
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 1: able to call on the people in your life for

402
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: support actually really positive. I don't feel like I need

403
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: to say that, but it does have a lot of

404
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: proven clinical benefits for our wellbeing and our overall outlook

405
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 1: on life. They contribute to our sense of reliance, our resourcefulness,

406
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 1: we have a stronger sense of trust in our own abilities,

407
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: we are better at expressing our needs and our emotions,

408
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: and we have greater self esteem when we're able to

409
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: promote healthy independence and healthy dependence in our relationships. And

410
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: that all sounds really positive because it is, it's healthy,

411
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: and it's something that we can pursue. But when it

412
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 1: emerges as a problem is when you are unable to

413
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: detach you need something else for your support. You know

414
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: this person is everything to you, or you're giving someone

415
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 1: else everything of you beyond what could possibly be expected

416
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: in any situation. And we have to remember here that

417
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 1: codependence is maladaptive and it's harmful to both members of

418
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: the relationship. I read an incredible article that explained this

419
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: distinction really well, and it explained the distinction between codependence

420
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: and independence or interdependence more like it as helping versus enabling.

421
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 1: If you think that your relationship with someone has fallen

422
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: into a giver and a taker situation, ask yourself whether

423
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 1: your actions and your responses to them are helping them

424
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 1: or enabling them. You know, if your friend keeps coming

425
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: to you for money but never paying you back, or

426
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: showing any progress towards being financially independent. This may seem

427
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: like you're helping them at the surface level, you know,

428
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: you're helping them through a tough time, but it actually

429
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: may be that you're enabling their dependency on you for assistance.

430
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: I always try and frame my decisions around whether my

431
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: actions are helping someone to become self sufficient, or whether

432
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: I'm doing it for myself because I want to feel better,

433
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: you know, or I'm helping them to the point that

434
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: they you know, they they don't need to help themselves,

435
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: and they don't need to help me, right Like they're

436
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: just reliant on me for something, and they're not able

437
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: to take responsibility for their problems. That's a really tricky

438
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: situation to be in, and I don't think we need

439
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: to apply that perspective to all of our relationships, but

440
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: it is something to be cognizant of. Doesn't mean you

441
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: need to say no or that you can't help someone

442
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: out in a tricky situation. But when it starts to

443
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: look like enaghbling behavior, it probably isn't helping either of you.

444
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: Maybe you're listening to this and you're like, this is me,

445
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: this is me, I'm in this situation. I'm really struggling,

446
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: and you've been able to identify yourself as being in

447
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: a codependent situation, whether that is with a parent, with

448
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: a romantic partner, with a friend, it really doesn't matter.

449
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: So how do you move back to a healthy level

450
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: of interdependency and dependence, and how do we restructure our

451
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: relationship with that person so that it doesn't compromise our identity,

452
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: it doesn't compromise our self esteem or you know, our

453
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: entire lives, our welfare. Healing a relationship from codependency, it's

454
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: going to take time, because it's like separating out someone's

455
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: addiction to you, you know, fighting against your addiction to them.

456
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: All of that is exhausting. It's also neurologically very difficult

457
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: because when we do become reliant on anything, be that

458
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: a drug or a person in this situation, what happens

459
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: to our brain is that our neurons and our synaptic

460
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: pathways they become wired towards wanting that person or whatever

461
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: it is that we're addicted to. It's a process called

462
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: long term tentiation, whereby the more that we activate a

463
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: certain pathway, the stronger it becomes, and the harder it

464
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: is to break that pattern. Or consumption, and when those

465
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: pathways are no longer activated. You know, when someone is

466
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: having a problem and they go, oh my gosh, I

467
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: cannot call that person, or when someone calls you with

468
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: a problem and you go, oh my gosh, I can't

469
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: help you because this is unhealthy, it's distressing. The first

470
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: step I think I would always recommend is to get

471
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: some outside help or an outside an objective perspective on

472
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: the relationship in question and the problem that you're facing.

473
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: It can be very difficult to be honest with ourselves

474
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: when a situation is so emotionally charged and at times

475
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: probably even tense or dangerous. So going to you know,

476
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: a trusted friend, a mentor a mental health professional based

477
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: on whatever resources you have, just someone who's separate from

478
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: the situation. It's sometimes really important because it gives you

479
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: a logical bird's eye view, so you can see clearly

480
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: why this scenario is hurting you, why it's hurting the

481
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: other person, why. It's probably really good if you get

482
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: some space, and you know, they may also just have

483
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: some really good advice and they may be able to

484
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: provide some options to you that you haven't considered. The

485
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: next step that I think is important is to ground

486
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: yourself and why you have acknowledged that this is maladaptive

487
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 1: and unhealthy, and find a way to make your thoughts

488
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: and your feelings on the matter tangible. I think this

489
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: applies to even situations beyond codependency, any problem that you have,

490
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: anything you're trying to solve, making a notes list or

491
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: journaling to yourself about how you feel, why this is difficult,

492
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: why you want to change. It's so much easier to

493
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: motivate yourself or to move through a difficult transition when

494
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: you have some written reminder about why you need to

495
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: do something, why you are making that change. This list,

496
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: you know, it might include things in this situation like

497
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: I don't like how I'm feeling stuck, or in this relationship,

498
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: I'm not able to promote my independence or I'm not

499
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: able to be independent, or situations or statements about how

500
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 1: the situation is making you feel and why it needs

501
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: to change, and that way you can come back to

502
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: it whenever you feel yourself slipping back into old pabits

503
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: or old patterns. I think the next really valuable step

504
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: to take, And if you've listened to my Boundaries episode,

505
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: this may sound really familiar it's to confront the person

506
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: and to confront the problem and have an honest conversation.

507
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: I know it's really scary, I've done it before. It

508
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: is terrifying, But I think one of the worst feelings

509
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: in the world is when someone makes a decision without

510
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: consulting you or completely ghosts to you or shuts you out. Obviously,

511
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: that's necessary sometimes, and there are people who are just

512
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: really bad for our health, and you can make that

513
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: call based on your own personal appraisal of the situation

514
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: or the extent of the codependency. But if the situation

515
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: allows it, I personally believe it's actually quite almost cruel.

516
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: I think to leave someone with no explanation or discussion,

517
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: and you don't need to treat it as a two

518
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,240
Speaker 1: way street or like the decision is up for debate.

519
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: Just simply lay out the facts and your feelings and

520
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 1: why you feel like you would both benefit from this,

521
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: why you would like your situation to change, and leave

522
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: it at that. Leave it at that, you don't need

523
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: to answer questions, you don't need to justify anything, and

524
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 1: that person may actually surprise you and say, you know,

525
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: like I've actually been feeling this way as well, and

526
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 1: I want our relationship to be healthier, or you know,

527
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: I want this for us. But I think honesty is

528
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 1: always the best policy in emotionally sensitive situations, whatever they

529
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: may be. I think now comes the difficult part, which

530
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 1: is sticking to your guns, respecting your own boundaries, learning

531
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 1: to say no when that person pushes up against what

532
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: you have decided to do. It's okay to fail a

533
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: few times to find you know that separation hard or

534
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 1: even painful. Like I said, you're neurologically and physically inclined

535
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 1: to feel this way. But if as the giver you're

536
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: still answering their calls at any time at the night,

537
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: or as the taker, you're finding that your emotional state

538
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: is based on how that person is treating you or

539
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: the attention they're giving you, and you cannot fight that urge,

540
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: then the boundary I don't think has been fully set,

541
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: or it hasn't been fully respected. So make some non

542
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: negotiables or some rules for yourself in these situations, and

543
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: I mean rules, not things that you would like to do,

544
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 1: but tangible decisions you're going to be accountable to yourself for.

545
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: It might also help to have someone else who can

546
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 1: kind of help you stay on track, or who you

547
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 1: can kind of answer to or update them on your progress,

548
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: and who can help you kind of question your decisions

549
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: not necessarily make you feel guilty, but make you appreciate

550
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 1: the reasoning behind maybe why you're struggling to keep that

551
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 1: boundary after a slip up, whatever it may be, it's

552
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: also really crucial to reflect on how it's left you feeling.

553
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: Did you let someone back into your life in the

554
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: way that you didn't necessarily want, or if you felt

555
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: that you came back to someone you didn't want to

556
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 1: be reliant on. Don't suppress that feeling. Don't suppress that shame,

557
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: almost sit with it. Process it. Think about how you

558
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: might change your future actions to avoid this situation. Be

559
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: future looking, imagine where you would like to be. Be like, Okay,

560
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: last night, I went over to this person's house and

561
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 1: I helped them out, even though I know this is codependent,

562
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: even though I really want some separation, and now I

563
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 1: feel really bad. I feel really really crap about myself.

564
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: Instead of being like, oh my god, I don't want

565
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,959
Speaker 1: to feel that. That's really uncomfortable, allow yourself to feel

566
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: that way and then look to the future and I

567
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,720
Speaker 1: guess that applies for everything, not just baking fear of codependency.

568
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: When we look towards the future, our progress is going

569
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: to be more steady. Obviously, you can follow these steps,

570
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 1: you can take my advice, do everything right. But the

571
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: thing is about any relationship is that it's always complicated,

572
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: it's always nuanced, and you know what you're going through

573
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: more than I ever could. So take it slow, be

574
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: kind to yourself, and I really hope that this information

575
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: has helped you. I feel like I've learnt so much

576
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: from this discussion and this research, especially about so many

577
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: of the misconcepts around codependency and how we can distinguish

578
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: it from healthy dependency and interdependency. It's just such a

579
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: fascinating topic, especially for our twenties, where I feel like

580
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: a lot of us have really intense relationships with people,

581
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: whether that is really good friends or the people that

582
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: we're dating, and it can really feel like it's just

583
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: us two in this bubble and one of us is

584
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: really reliant on the other person and is taking so

585
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 1: much and the other person can't leave, and it's just

586
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,760
Speaker 1: really emotionally volatile. So if you can relate, you deserve

587
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: a lot of credit. I'm sure it's really difficult, but

588
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: hopefully this episode gave you some sense of the future

589
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: and some sense of what you can do. Thank you

590
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: for listening today. I think that's all that we have

591
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: time for. I'm really hopeful and yeah, hoping that you

592
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: enjoyed it. I really did as well. So if you

593
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: did enjoy this episode, if you learned something that's the

594
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: most important, please feel free to leave a five star

595
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 1: review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now.

596
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,399
Speaker 1: If you want to follow us on Instagram, that's where

597
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: I let my listeners decide what I record for the

598
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: next week, so you can contribute to what you want

599
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: to hear. And thank you so much for listening. Thank

600
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: you so much for tuning in. I feel very grateful

601
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,720
Speaker 1: that people want to hear what we're discussing, and people

602
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 1: are interested in these topics as much as I am,

603
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 1: and are willing to learn as much as I really

604
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 1: like learning. So thank you so much for joining us

605
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 1: for this journey, and have an absolutely lovely week.