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Speaker 1: Hey guys, Steve here, you are listening to one of

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Speaker 1: our original twenty six episodes. If you've listen to any

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Speaker 1: of our new episodes, you're gonna notice that we're sounding

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Speaker 1: a little different in these ones. Yeah, there's a reason

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Speaker 1: for that. There is they've been remastered. They have been

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Speaker 1: remastered because they had a really annoying hum. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean a huge thanks to listener James for doing almost

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Speaker 1: all of the legwork on this thing. They'll also notice

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Speaker 1: if you had listened to what we're calling the last

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Speaker 1: twenty six episodes before and you're re listening now, the

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Speaker 1: music and sound effects are gone. Yes, we've we've gone

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Speaker 1: back to straight audio, so be warned. We sound a

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Speaker 1: little different today than we do in what you're about

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Speaker 1: to listen to. Yeah, bye bye, Hi there, thanks for

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Speaker 1: joining the show again. This is Thinking Sideways the podcast,

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Speaker 1: and I am Steve as always, I'm joined by Joe

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Speaker 1: Hello and Devin Hi, and we who decided to give

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Speaker 1: you a little bit of a holiday extrass. Since it

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Speaker 1: is Halloween. We're gonna pull around the campfire. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: tell a creepy story. Yeah, pretty excited. We don't usually

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Speaker 1: do this, No, now, this one's a little little out

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Speaker 1: of our ballpark. But that's okay, So let's let's well, actually,

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Speaker 1: before we get into the show, I do want to

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Speaker 1: say something for listeners. Uh, this story, ladies and gentlemen

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Speaker 1: that we're gonna go into has some pretty graphic details

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Speaker 1: in it, and it's got a lot of violence in it.

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Speaker 1: So you're not into that thing, or you're gonna be

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Speaker 1: listening to the show and there's some some kids around

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Speaker 1: or younger folks, you might want to just skip this

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Speaker 1: show because it's probably not the style that you want

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Speaker 1: to go into. Okay, Well, there to night we are

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Speaker 1: going to talk about what is referred to as the

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Speaker 1: tech Sarcanna Moonlight Murders Texarcana. Yeah, didn't they base a

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Speaker 1: movie on that town that in fear? I think it's

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Speaker 1: that dreaded sundown. Yeah, have you seen that? No? I haven't.

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Speaker 1: Actually I haven't either. I've just I've been through tex

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Speaker 1: Arcana on a train and I can tell you that

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Speaker 1: when you stop at what seems to be the train

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Speaker 1: station and then go the building seems to transition into

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Speaker 1: a jail. So I don't know if that's real or not,

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Speaker 1: but in my mind, tex Arcana is the place where

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Speaker 1: the train station is the same building as the jail.

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Speaker 1: Good thing. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, So here's the story.

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Speaker 1: Um and spring at six or a series of fairly

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Speaker 1: grizzly murders were committed, most about three or four weeks apart,

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Speaker 1: and eventually put the whole town of Texarcana into a

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Speaker 1: tremendous state of terror, both people buying guns and nailing

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Speaker 1: their windows shut and buying dolber buying Doberman pinchers to

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Speaker 1: guard the house. The slayer was never caught. He was

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Speaker 1: eventually nicknamed the Phantom Killer. Alternatively, he was called the

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Speaker 1: Phantom Slayer. It's unknown why he killed these people, and

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Speaker 1: it's unknown if you committed other murders besides this or what.

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Speaker 1: It's all just a big mystery because they never caught

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Speaker 1: the killer. Yeah, that's the scary part, one of the

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Speaker 1: scary parts of the many scary parts of this very

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Speaker 1: scary story. It's possibly you and and sometimes it's in

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Speaker 1: a series of crimes like this, the killer does get caught,

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Speaker 1: but for another crime. It might very well be that

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Speaker 1: this guy went away for something else, and that's why

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Speaker 1: the murders stopped that's a possibility. But we're getting ahead

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. Yeah yeah, So let's uh, let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the attacks. The first attack took place on February twenty second,

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Speaker 1: around midnight. The first victims were Jimmy Hollis, who was

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Speaker 1: twenty four, and his girl friend Mary Jean Larry. Now,

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Speaker 1: what do you do when you're in a small town

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Speaker 1: and you want to get away? They were parked out

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Speaker 1: on a lover's lane. They were gonna have us included

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Speaker 1: evening together. They've been there about ten minutes when suddenly

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Speaker 1: somebody knocked on the window. Jimmy looked up and he

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Speaker 1: thought it was going to be a cop, but instead

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Speaker 1: he saw a guy wearing a white hood pointing a

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Speaker 1: gun in his face, and he said, felly, you got

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Speaker 1: me mixed up with someone else. You've got the wrong man.

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Speaker 1: I gotta say, I gotta say, that's that's pretty cool

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Speaker 1: demeanor on his part. If I say somebody like, you know,

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Speaker 1: with a gun in a white hood, and I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be saying, oh, you got me mixed up with somebody else.

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Speaker 1: I'd be handing my wallet or whatever. Well that's the

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Speaker 1: first thing you would think. But this, uh, this the

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Speaker 1: suspect had what we now are pretty sure is a

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Speaker 1: thirty two caliber handgun pointing at him, and he said,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to kill you, fellows to do what

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Speaker 1: I say. He then proceeded to order them both to

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Speaker 1: get out of the car, and the quote, which was

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Speaker 1: taken from the police report, says, take off your bleeping bridges,

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Speaker 1: at which point his girlfriend Mary Jean said, basically, please

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Speaker 1: do what he says. Just do what he says. So

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Speaker 1: he goes. He goes ahead, and he takes off his pants.

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Speaker 1: But while he's bent over taking off his pants, he

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Speaker 1: gets clubbed in the head. He gets hit so hard,

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Speaker 1: the noises so loud that his girlfriend Mary thinks that

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Speaker 1: he's actually been shot. So he got hit with that

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Speaker 1: much force, and it turned out it turned out that

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Speaker 1: it was actually a skull cracking. Yes, it was his

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Speaker 1: skull cracking. That's that's really hard. Apparently a skull is

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Speaker 1: cracked in three places. Yeah, which not not something I'd

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Speaker 1: want to have happened. So what happens here is our

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Speaker 1: our assailant then of course pulls his wallet out, Jimmy's

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Speaker 1: wallet out, and goes through and discovers he doesn't have

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Speaker 1: any money. And gets a little upset and starts talking

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Speaker 1: to Mary and is upset about and says, no, I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry he has no money, at which point he's sure

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Speaker 1: that she has a purse and she says, well, no,

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Speaker 1: I don't have a purse, and he doesn't believe her.

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Speaker 1: He thinks that she's lying to him. He gets so

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Speaker 1: angry he hits her and knocks her to the ground,

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Speaker 1: and she's on the ground. She starts to get up,

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Speaker 1: and he says something along the lines of run. She

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Speaker 1: starts to run away from him towards the ditch that's

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Speaker 1: on the side of the road and tell HER's, no,

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Speaker 1: don't run that way, run down the road. So of

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Speaker 1: course she turns around. She starts running down the road.

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Speaker 1: He runs and catches up with her and knocks her

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Speaker 1: down again, and he says, why are you running? She says,

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Speaker 1: the logical thing, because you told me to, at which

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Speaker 1: point he starts telling her that. He starts saying she's

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Speaker 1: a liar and that he's gonna kill her, and he

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Speaker 1: knocks her down again, and this is where the gorries

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Speaker 1: parts start happening, because he sexually assault her with his gun.

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Speaker 1: Not a lot of details are there, as to exactly

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Speaker 1: what happened, and I don't think any of us want

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Speaker 1: to know exactly what happened. But she used the guns

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Speaker 1: of unsafe. It's it does and there's there's multiple puns there,

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Speaker 1: but we're not going to go there today. After he

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Speaker 1: had finished that, he started to go back towards Jimmy,

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Speaker 1: if I understand correctly, at which point she stood up

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Speaker 1: and she ran away again. This time she was able

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Speaker 1: to get to a house and knock on the door

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Speaker 1: and get the people who were home to wake up,

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Speaker 1: tell them what was happening, and call the police. Now,

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Speaker 1: didn't the um police not believe her at first that

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Speaker 1: she didn't know who it was that did it? Yes,

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Speaker 1: the police, and her statements that she's given years, had

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Speaker 1: given years after the fact, said she didn't understand why

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Speaker 1: the police were continually telling her, no, you know the assailant,

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Speaker 1: you know who it was, which, let's be honest, nothing

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Speaker 1: like this has happened in the town, and they're pretty

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Speaker 1: sure it's probably somebody that they know. It's probably a

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Speaker 1: rendezvous gone bad, and she's trying to protect them. That's

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Speaker 1: what I would presume the cops are thinking that they

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Speaker 1: haven't obviously no idea what's going to come down doesn't

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Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense. So because if

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Speaker 1: she wants to protect him, that she wouldn't go to

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Speaker 1: the cops to begin with, you're right, right, but people

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Speaker 1: do things in the heat of the moment. She might

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Speaker 1: have changed her mind. But regardless, the cops show up

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Speaker 1: and they find Jimmy and he's obviously not doing so well,

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Speaker 1: and they take him to the hospital. But they both

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Speaker 1: survived the attack, and they're able to give accounts of

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Speaker 1: it to the police, and they are able to give

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Speaker 1: what end up being very different accounts in terms of

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Speaker 1: what their attacker looked like, because if you remember, I said,

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Speaker 1: he had a sack over his head, so we had

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Speaker 1: eye holes cut out at a mouth hole cutouts, and

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Speaker 1: that was it. And I believe here it is. So

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Speaker 1: Jimmy believed that it was quote unquote a dark tanned

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Speaker 1: white man, whereas Mary believed it was a light skinned

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Speaker 1: quote unquote negro because of the way he pronounced the

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Speaker 1: curse words he growled. But we don't know which it was.

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Speaker 1: They never agreed on what it was, and so it

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Speaker 1: didn't help the case at all. Did they agree on

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Speaker 1: anything else? About his physical appearance. They both said that

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Speaker 1: he was approximately six ft tall, and that's kind of

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Speaker 1: where it ends. And that's the hard part is with

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Speaker 1: the records. It's a little difficult because original records are

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Speaker 1: hard to get hold of anymore. But that's that's the

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Speaker 1: best we've got out of their descriptions. Essentially, you're the

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Speaker 1: simplest version that I should say. So. The next attack

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Speaker 1: happened about four weeks later on March um and Richard

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Speaker 1: Griffin he was twenty nine, and his girlfriend of six weeks,

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Speaker 1: Polly Anne Moore, who was seventeen, were found dead in

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Speaker 1: Richard's car between like eight thirty or nine UM in

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Speaker 1: the morning by a driver that was passing by, and

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Speaker 1: the driver stated that he originally thought that they were

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Speaker 1: asleep in the car, but as soon as he walked

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Speaker 1: up to it realized, oh no, they're not asleep, they're dead.

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Speaker 1: So he called the police and they came out. Richard

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Speaker 1: was found in between the seats on his knees with

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Speaker 1: his head resting on his hands, um in his pocket

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Speaker 1: pockets had been turned out so like he had been robbed.

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Speaker 1: It looks like a robbery. And Paully was found sprawled

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Speaker 1: face down in the back seat. Griffin had been shot

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Speaker 1: twice and Polly had been shot once. Both of them

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Speaker 1: had been shot in the back of the head. Polly's

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Speaker 1: purse was next to her in the back seat, however,

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Speaker 1: so maybe it wasn't actually robbery. That's one of the

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Speaker 1: things they found was a section of ground about twenty

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Speaker 1: ft from the car that was saturated in dry blood.

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Speaker 1: Blood was spattered throughout the vehicle and um mrs gross

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Speaker 1: congealed blood was found flowing through the bottom of the

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Speaker 1: door off of the dashboard a lot of luck. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was a blanket also found in the car, and

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Speaker 1: it had thirty two cartridge shells that were believed to

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Speaker 1: be shot from the same kind of gun used in

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Speaker 1: the first crime. There inside of the blanket. There was

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Speaker 1: no gun ever found, so it couldn't be ruled a

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Speaker 1: murder suicide. And the theory was that the assailant had

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Speaker 1: wrapped the gun in the blanket and shot it as

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Speaker 1: a sort of muffler because those cartridges were found inside

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Speaker 1: of the blanket, so and it had rained overnight, so

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Speaker 1: they couldn't find any kind of footprints or anything like that. Additionally,

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Speaker 1: I think you know, in my mind. If you think

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Speaker 1: of a woman sprawled face down in the backseat of

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Speaker 1: a car and it's traced to the crime that had

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Speaker 1: happened previously. I think there was probably some kind of

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Speaker 1: sexual assault play that had happened, except her body was

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Speaker 1: taken and they had the examiners examine it not for rape,

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Speaker 1: but like cut her open and do that kind of autopsy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: before or they could ever do any kind of rape anything.

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Speaker 1: So we don't actually know if she was actually assalted

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Speaker 1: or not because then they like screw up and cary

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Speaker 1: your body away to the mortuary, and she was embalmed

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Speaker 1: and all that stuff. Yeah, that's the second murder, a

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Speaker 1: lot of the third one. So attack. Yeah, So three

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Speaker 1: weeks go by and nobody gets killed. Everybody's starting to think, hey,

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Speaker 1: everything's all right, and then I guess what, two more

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Speaker 1: people get killed. So this happened that The victims were

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Speaker 1: Paul Martin and Betty Joe Booker on Saturday night, April thirteen.

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Speaker 1: Betty Joe Booker did I say? She was fifteen PM.

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Speaker 1: So she was playing her saxophone in a band that

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Speaker 1: she played with in a bar, and she got away

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Speaker 1: with it because you know, her parents wrote her a

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Speaker 1: note or something like that. But but she played with

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Speaker 1: this band on a regular basis and they finished up

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Speaker 1: about one thirty am and her friend Paul Martin, who

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Speaker 1: was sixteen. Childhood friend was to pick her up and

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Speaker 1: take her home. So at some point after one thirty

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Speaker 1: am and before six thirty am, when Paul's body was found,

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Speaker 1: they were killed by apparently a thirty two automatic. His

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Speaker 1: body was found about six thirty am. It was lying

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Speaker 1: on his left side on the side of the North

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Speaker 1: Park Road, found a little bit further down on the

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Speaker 1: other side of the road by offence. He'd been shot

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Speaker 1: four times, once through the nose, once to the ribs,

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Speaker 1: one in the right hand, and a fourth through the

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Speaker 1: back of the neck and it exited the front of

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Speaker 1: his head. That is a lot of shots, a lot

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Speaker 1: of times. Yeah, yeah, a lot of a lot of

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Speaker 1: spray in there. I'm not sure exactly what was going on.

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Speaker 1: I mean, And once you're the hand almost seems as

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Speaker 1: if it's a defensive wound. Somebody points a gun and

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Speaker 1: you try to move and you've got your hands up,

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Speaker 1: you're likely to get shot in the hands. So that

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Speaker 1: to me would almost explain that he was in some

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Speaker 1: prone position but trying to get away when shot through

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Speaker 1: the nose to the left of Yeah, it's three of

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Speaker 1: these wounds. I mean, they don't even though they're in

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Speaker 1: this particular order, that doesn't mean that the wounds actually

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Speaker 1: occurred in the three of them were in the back,

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Speaker 1: I said, Well, the right hand, I don't say, but

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Speaker 1: me and so two and probably three were in the back,

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Speaker 1: which you know, and maybe the kid that he was

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Speaker 1: running away, And so that's why I explain to see

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Speaker 1: low accuracy of the shots. And then probably the q

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Speaker 1: D grad one through the face was the last one,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know speculation. So anyway, that's what's going

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Speaker 1: on with his body. Her body was nowhere to be found,

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Speaker 1: so search parties were organized and it was found about

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Speaker 1: eleven thirty am that day, about two miles away. He

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Speaker 1: was lying his back fully closed with a button overcoat.

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Speaker 1: She'd been shot twice, once in the ribs and once

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Speaker 1: in the face. The weapon is apparently the same at

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Speaker 1: thirty two automatic. Uh. Some people say that they believe

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Speaker 1: it was a thirty two automatic cold pistol, And there's

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Speaker 1: it's possible you can identify from the marketings on the cartridge.

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Speaker 1: You know what kind of a gun it actually is,

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Speaker 1: or it might be somebody just sort of put that

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Speaker 1: little tidbit in there. But yeah, thirty two. Back in

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Speaker 1: those days, thirty two is actually a pretty popular round.

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Speaker 1: It's not that popular these days. It's considered kind of marginal.

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Speaker 1: Still obviously pretty good at killing people. Unfortunate following Day's

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Speaker 1: newspaper had reports about it. They claimed the bodies were

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Speaker 1: not abuse that later rumors claimed that Betty had been raped. Well,

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Speaker 1: so that's that's one of the things, right is this

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Speaker 1: nineteen forties and they're not big on reporting sexual So no,

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Speaker 1: you don't talk about this. This is one of those

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Speaker 1: things that we just pushed into the car. Even post mortem. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we don't. We don't discuss that that didn't happen. Now, Joe,

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Speaker 1: she was in the band and if I remember writing

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Speaker 1: in reading she she had her was it a saxophone

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Speaker 1: that she had? Yeah, she played the saxophone And when

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Speaker 1: they found her, they did not find her saxophone and

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Speaker 1: it was thought perhaps had been taken by the attacker somebody.

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Speaker 1: The band leader did report that she had had her

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Speaker 1: saxople with hery when she left, and since it was

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Speaker 1: nowhere to be found. It wasn't found in Paul's car.

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Speaker 1: His car was by by the way I found a

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Speaker 1: few miles away, and the saxophone was not there, and

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Speaker 1: so that was considered to be a possible clue. I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: if we find a guy with the saxophone, obviously he's

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Speaker 1: our killer and won't give him the chair. Yes, sax

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Speaker 1: well was found about six months later. It was found

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Speaker 1: in Bush's pretty close to where her body had been found,

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Speaker 1: so it was not actually taken. It was probably just tossed. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's kind of unfortunate really that they didn't

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Speaker 1: find it that at that time because they had the

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Speaker 1: police actually wasted quite a bit of resources trying to

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Speaker 1: find that sax and whoever had that sex. Yeah. Well, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: we've got another murder that we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: in the same series. And yeah, I know. This one

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Speaker 1: happened on Friday May three, sometime before nine o'clock in

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Speaker 1: the evening. There was a local farmer welder named Virgil

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Speaker 1: sat Or Starks. Virgil Starks come home. He had a

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Speaker 1: long day, his back was store, so he had his wife,

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Speaker 1: you know, give him a heating pad and he sat

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Speaker 1: down in a chair to listen to the radio and

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Speaker 1: and go through the newspaper and relaxed, and his wife

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Speaker 1: went and laid down in the bedroom. At which point,

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Speaker 1: and this is again we don't have the exact times,

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Speaker 1: but summer before nine o'clock, someone came up to the

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Speaker 1: kitchen window and shot him through the window twice in

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Speaker 1: the back of the head. His wife reported not hearing

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Speaker 1: the shots, but actually hearing the sound of breaking glass,

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Speaker 1: at which point she thought her husband had broken something.

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Speaker 1: She came out to see what the noise was, at

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Speaker 1: which point she saw that her husband was dead, and

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Speaker 1: she instantly turned around and went to run for the phone.

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Speaker 1: You've got to remember, ladies and gentlemen, this is the

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Speaker 1: nineteen forties, and telephones then weren't like they are today.

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Speaker 1: They had a wall crank phone. It was probably a

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Speaker 1: party line too, it probably was. So she ran to

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Speaker 1: the phone, and she reported that she got two cranks

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Speaker 1: on the phone, and how these phones were correct me

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Speaker 1: if I'm wrong here, Joe, is that you take multiple

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Speaker 1: cranks to get to the operator to come through. Is that?

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Speaker 1: I have no idea, I don't know, But she she

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Speaker 1: got two cranks on the phone to try to get

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Speaker 1: someone to come on the line. The operator. The assailant,

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Speaker 1: who was still outside the window, shot her twice. And

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Speaker 1: this woman is tough, because to survive what we're gonna

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Speaker 1: go through, you've got to be a really tough bird. Um.

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Speaker 1: She was shot from behind twice. One bullet entered her

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Speaker 1: right cheek and exited behind her left ear, and the

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Speaker 1: other went in her lower jaw, below her lip and

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Speaker 1: splintered her teeth and her jaw before it lodged in

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Speaker 1: just below her tongue. That is not a nice way

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Speaker 1: to be shot. Sound unpleasant, She she felt obviously fell down,

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Speaker 1: but she managed to get back up, and she ran

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Speaker 1: to get a pistol from the living room. But she's

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Speaker 1: bleeding so profusely. She's blinded by the amount of blood

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Speaker 1: that's coming out. Um. She she heard the killer tearing

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Speaker 1: loose the screen on her back porch, and you know,

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Speaker 1: obviously enough she's figured she's gonna get killed, so she

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Speaker 1: starts to run towards the front of the house to

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Speaker 1: try to leave a note, which and I read that account,

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Speaker 1: I was I was a little puzzled by that, because

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Speaker 1: if you can see well enough to write a note

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Speaker 1: you can see well enough to find I don't understand that,

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Speaker 1: and again in that state of mind, who yeah um.

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Speaker 1: At this point, the killer runs around to the back

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Speaker 1: of the house, makes his way up the porch steps

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Speaker 1: and into the side screen porch and their back screen,

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Speaker 1: and it's trying to come through a window. She can

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Speaker 1: hear him trying to come to basically tearing through the screen,

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Speaker 1: metal screen window, trying to get in. Mrs Starks turns around.

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Speaker 1: She she runs through the house, down a hallway out

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Speaker 1: of bedroom and makes her way out the door on

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Speaker 1: the opposite side of the house, basically runs across the

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Speaker 1: street and eventually is able to go to a house

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Speaker 1: and get family. I believe it's her her brother and

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Speaker 1: sister in law who lived across the street. Across the street. Oh,

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Speaker 1: you're right, they weren't home, And so then she had

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Speaker 1: to go down to the next house down, which is

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Speaker 1: like fifty yards away, and she's barefoot in her nightgown.

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Speaker 1: The term they used leaving a literal river. She gets

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Speaker 1: to these people house, they opened the door, she says,

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Speaker 1: Virgil's dead, and she collapses. She eventually came to as

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Speaker 1: they were taking to the hospital. One side note this

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Speaker 1: I said, this lady was tough. This lady was super

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Speaker 1: tough because as they were taking her to the hospital,

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Speaker 1: because somebody just drove her to the hospital and her,

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Speaker 1: like we said, teeth falling out, she pulled out one

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Speaker 1: of her teeth that had a goals filling and gave

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Speaker 1: to the man driving the car as payment to take.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty cool, actually, just just for our for our

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Speaker 1: viewers knowledge. She eventually recovered from the wounds and wind

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Speaker 1: up remarrying and leaving to be a pretty ripe old age. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she she was lucky she survived. The investigators,

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Speaker 1: as Devon had said, came to the house and they

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Speaker 1: found a trail of blood and scattered teeth throughout the house.

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Speaker 1: The lead investigator on this case at the second murder

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Speaker 1: an noown through this whole time, is a Texas ranger

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Speaker 1: by the name of Gonzalez. And Gonzalez walked through the

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Speaker 1: house and he said, it's beyond me why she didn't

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Speaker 1: bleed to death. That's a lot of blood. When the

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Speaker 1: cops says, how did you not bleed today? Yeah, by

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Speaker 1: the way, just as in the side, by the way,

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Speaker 1: by this by this point in time, the town was

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Speaker 1: flooded with state police, Texas rangers, County County cops, you

390
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Speaker 1: know everybody. Yeah, yeah, law enforcement was thick in this town.

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Speaker 1: And how that how this guy, and that might explain

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Speaker 1: why he stopped committing to murders. Maybe the figures there's

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Speaker 1: so many much, so many cops. Every other car there

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Speaker 1: rose a cop car. So maybe that's why I quit

395
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Speaker 1: moved on. Well, here's here's what we do know is

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Speaker 1: that when they checked out the house, there were only

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Speaker 1: two bullet holes in the window where Virgil was shot from,

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Speaker 1: so they're pretty sure that a was an automatic weapon

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Speaker 1: and be after shooting Virgil, the assailant had to wait,

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Speaker 1: had to have waited there for his wife to come

401
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Speaker 1: see what was going on before shooting her. So that's

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Speaker 1: pretty cold blooded right there. That's kind of brutal. Yeah, well,

403
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Speaker 1: it's really it's pretty calculated to right because Bill then

404
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Speaker 1: because you would assume that she would have been out

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Speaker 1: of the room for a little while. It's not like

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Speaker 1: he just walked by and I was like, Oh, there's

407
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Speaker 1: a dude I could kill. You knew there were two

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Speaker 1: people in the house. He obviously had a preference for

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Speaker 1: assaulting two people. At a time. Yeah, which is a

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Speaker 1: little weird. But here's here's some clues. So we finally

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Speaker 1: get some pretty what seemed like pretty decent clues at

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Speaker 1: this murder. First off, is that the caliberl of bullets

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Speaker 1: had changed. Originally it was a thirty two. These murders

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Speaker 1: were committed with a twenty two. Uh, and they were

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Speaker 1: actually though they believe it came out of an automatic handgun,

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Speaker 1: they were dear rifle twenty two rounds, which was a

417
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Speaker 1: little strange. I would I would suspect that they were

418
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Speaker 1: fired from a rifle because she reported not hearing any gunshots. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and twenty two is make a loud crack coming out

420
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Speaker 1: of a short barrel out of a rifle barrel of

421
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Speaker 1: twenty two? Is it really quiet? Yeah? So yeah, it

422
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Speaker 1: probably was a rifle. Yeah. Well yeah, and we don't know. Um.

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Speaker 1: Underneath the window though they did find a flashlight that

424
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Speaker 1: had been dropped, and in the mud underneath the window,

425
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Speaker 1: and in the blood that was trailed through the house,

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Speaker 1: they found owned footprints partial prints of a shoe that

427
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: was somewhere between a size nine and a half and

428
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: ten and a half. Dude, if that guy was if

429
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,640
Speaker 1: it was the guy that they were the first attack

430
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: was describing he was six ft tall with a like

431
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 1: a nine and a half foot that's pretty pretty short,

432
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: strange proportion. There were evidently some fingerprints in the house,

433
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: but they could never get a good fingerprints, so they

434
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 1: could never use anything to match. They were always smudged

435
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: and unusable. Yeah. Well, no, The only other thing that

436
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 1: I've got here is that early Saturday morning, the you know,

437
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 1: the police did bring in bloodhounds, and the bloodhounds did

438
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: track two different trails from the house, but they both

439
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 1: led to the freeway and or the highway, I should

440
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: say the local highway, and then the scent was gone.

441
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: So obviously a car car was parked there and whoever

442
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 1: it was, got in their car and drove away and

443
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: that was the end of it. I wonder what the

444
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: other trail was, No, it was two trump right, I'm

445
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: guessing it's two trails one to um. Yeah. But that's

446
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: all there is, and that's all the clues that we've

447
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: got in terms of physical evidence. Yeah, and that and

448
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: that was pretty much it for murders around there for

449
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: a while. But uh yeah, so hard hard to say

450
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: what happened. If the guy just decided to move on

451
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: and you know, quit while it quit while the girl

452
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: was good, or maybe he got picked up and thrown

453
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 1: in jail and that's why they stopped. Yeah, and and

454
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 1: there there was a lot of suspects and a lot

455
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 1: of weird stuff. But we we I think we need

456
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 1: to step back because we've just talked about three or

457
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: six brutal or five brutal it's five people who died

458
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: far brutal attacks, next victims, five of whom died. So

459
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: this is a word problem, ladies and gentlemen. But a

460
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: lot of people died. And if you can imagine living

461
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: in a town where for two and a half months

462
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: this is happening, you can imagine that there's some panic.

463
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 1: Apparently it's not this is actually not even Apparently. Gun

464
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 1: sales were up tremendously. The investigation kind of like launched

465
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 1: pretty immediately after, especially after that first attack, well, the

466
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: first murder, I guess, not the first attack, but the

467
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,719
Speaker 1: first murder. You know a lot of parents were saying,

468
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 1: you know, to their kids, don't be out late all that.

469
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: But after the second double murder, the whole city basically

470
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: shut down. They were enforcing curfews on businesses. There was

471
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: just like this hysteria that snowballed out of out of control,

472
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: especially after this last the Starks attacked. Right, this is

473
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: one of the things I thought. It was a little

474
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: a little funny. It was like the day so apparently

475
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: the day after Virginal Starks was murdered, residents started buying

476
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: firearms and locks, and stores were soon sold out of

477
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: guns and ammunition locks. And I'm like, really, why do

478
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: you wait until why do you wait this long to

479
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 1: start go out and buy a gun after maybe the

480
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: second murder. I think I'm gonna go buy myself a

481
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,959
Speaker 1: little thirty eight or something like that. Yeah, I don't know. Um,

482
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: you know, it's things like you know, Texarcan is pretty small, uh,

483
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: and it was pretty usual for people to leave all

484
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 1: of their windows open at night or their doors unlocked

485
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 1: or anything like that, and that, you know, immediately stopped

486
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 1: as soon as the second murder happened. You know, people

487
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: were just locking their doors. People are setting up traps,

488
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: is that right? Yeah, Well, people were setting off homemade

489
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 1: alarm or setting up homemade alarm systems. And the people

490
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 1: were so we're so on edge that the cops if

491
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: they came up to someone's house. They had to have

492
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 1: the flashing lights on their sirens too, Yeah, their sirens on, yeah, exactly,

493
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,360
Speaker 1: so they could get so they didn't get shot by

494
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: someone who was panicked. There's there's actually a story of

495
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: a bar owner who shot one of his own patrons

496
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: who was in the bar looking for beer. Now I

497
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: don't know what he was doing in there looking for beer.

498
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 1: I'm guessing it wasn't exactly during operating hours or he

499
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: closed early, but he shot one of his patt because

500
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: he was just so freaked out. Yeah, I mean, you know,

501
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: things like want ads for guard dogs were popping up everywhere.

502
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: You know, people other people were selling their guard dogs.

503
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: I don't know why you would sell your guard dog.

504
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: I guess because you could probably get like a lot

505
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: of money for us, probably guard you're probably on a

506
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: lot of guns, or you have like a couple of them, right,

507
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: you know. But it was, you know, things like uh,

508
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,959
Speaker 1: there are stories of one woman set up a table

509
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 1: leaning against the door with a pot full of nails

510
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: that would spill over into tin trays if the door

511
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: was opened. One woman um actually attacked her husband because

512
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: he came in late um and she thought he was

513
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: the phantom murderer. Um. Lots of people were checking into hotels.

514
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: Husbands if they had to go out of town, would

515
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: check their whole families and hotels for just like ever.

516
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: People were leaving their all of their lights on during

517
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: the day because they were scared of the shadows during

518
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: the day. Well, I mean, this is not this is

519
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: not the kind of thing that people are used to

520
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: dealing with in this that day and age, and we

521
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: were talking to mid fourties. This is not what happened. Yeah,

522
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: I mean these days serial killings, it's just a routine thing.

523
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: Like yeah, definitely a little out of the ordinary for

524
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: these folks. But high schoolers still went out and parked

525
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: on lonely little lovers lanes and stuff. Although usually they

526
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: armed themselves, this time, you know, they weren't that stupid,

527
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: So they were kind of doing like a teen slew thing. Yeah,

528
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: I kind of like that, Yeah, the early Scooby Doo. Yeah. Yeah.

529
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: So one night and and in fact, one night, a

530
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: couple of a state trooper and a county manu were

531
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: at patrolling the road and they came to a park

532
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: car and the sheriff got the sheriff's deputy got out

533
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: and approached the car, and then I identified himself and

534
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,239
Speaker 1: it says, aren't you scared to be parked out here

535
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: at night? And the girl says, you're the one I

536
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: would be scared. Mr. It's a good thing you told

537
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: me who you are. And that's the turns actually got

538
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: a twenty five caliber pistol pointed at him. Yeah, yeah, well,

539
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go out parking Lover's Land. I'm gonna be

540
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: well armed or something like that. Yeah, yeah, so um.

541
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: And there was another incident where a high schooler named C. J.

542
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: Lauderdale was following a city bus because he had seen

543
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: somebody parking his car and then get on this bus.

544
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: He thought that was suspicious, so he started, that's that's

545
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: a little suspicious. So he's following the bus and then,

546
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: for some reason, I don't know why, that attracted the

547
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: attention of the attention of the Texarkana Police Deparvery, but

548
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: they started chasing him, and they chased him for like

549
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: three miles before they finally caught up. And then he

550
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: explained that, you know, they were in an unmarked police

551
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,479
Speaker 1: car and so he wasn't about to pull over for

552
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: them because he thought that, Yeah, it was. It was

553
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: just yeah, people were paranoid all the way around. Uh,

554
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: and so at that at that point, the local police

555
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: chief started warning teenage what he quote called teenage sluice

556
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: to say, to tell him not to try to take

557
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: their law in the lot of their own hands, and

558
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: not to try to solve these murders themselves. Which is

559
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: funny because the same Gonzales are like police here exactly.

560
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,959
Speaker 1: He actually started recruiting teenagers. Some of them were like

561
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: sons and daughters of his own rangers Texas employees. It's

562
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: a good idea, idea, yeah, Well, he started recruiting them

563
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: to be decoys, like not even to like chase after

564
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: suspicious people, but to just park their cars and like

565
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: pretend to be making out in the car, hoping that

566
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: the phantom would just like walk by or appear. I

567
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: don't really know what they thought was going to happen.

568
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: Who were these decoys, mostly teenagers, and then some of

569
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: them they ended up They started these teenagers at first,

570
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: and then they said, well, actually it was a kind

571
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: of bad idea. So they started using their own Texas

572
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: Rangers who would sit in the car either with each

573
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: other or sometimes with a mannequin. I guess. I guess

574
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: they tried each other first, but then they know they're

575
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: making out and got a little uncomfortable, park their car

576
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: like in behind a bush like douper, sneaky like, and

577
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: wait for the phantom murderer to come along. And obviously

578
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: he never did. Because clearly smarter than that, I think,

579
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: you know, if you learn anything already, he's clearly smarter

580
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 1: than that. Yeah, Gonzalez, are you know hero Texas ranger?

581
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: He and his officers, he said, we're dealing with and

582
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: I quote a shrewd criminal who had left no stone

583
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: unturned to conceal his identity and activities. I just like that.

584
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: I feel like that comes from like this dude didn't

585
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: fall for our trick. Yeah, well, obviously the guy is

586
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: is wise to well, maybe I should check out what

587
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: I'm dealing with since I've caused so much heat. It

588
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: is basically what it comes down to you. But of course,

589
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: you know they're trying to set up a profile of

590
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: this guy. They're trying to figure it out. And this

591
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: is where the nineteen forties logic gets a little weird

592
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: to me, because they say, and again, this is Gonzalez,

593
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: he says that the murderer was a cunning individual who

594
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: would go to all legs to avoid apprehension, but was

595
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: also dealing with our suffering from sex mania. Yeah. I

596
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: mean again, here's another quote. I believe that a sex

597
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: pervert is responsible. It seems like there's a sexual aspect

598
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: and that's a little weird, but it's just a a

599
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: sex mania is a weird way to put it. You know,

600
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: I don't know of a lot of murders that we

601
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,719
Speaker 1: hear about today where it's a person kills one and

602
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: then has rapes another and then kills that person and

603
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: progressively does that. That sounds like some other compulsion, some

604
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: other weird mental state to be. And then again, this

605
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: is the nineteen forties. They don't have all of the

606
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: forensics that we have now. And it just means, I mean,

607
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: they call it now, they call it a sexually violent predator. Yeah,

608
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: and now. And also, you know, there's no there's you know,

609
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: we don't really have any evidence of proof that besides

610
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: the person who was Mary Jean, who was violated with

611
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: pistol in the first incident, there's not it's not really

612
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: much evidence that the other two were raped. Well though

613
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: there was because it wasn't let's see it was the

614
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: third girl. Yes, there was evidence of sexual assault on

615
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: her immediately because yeah, they held on to it. They

616
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 1: just didn't put it out basically, And again it's one

617
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: of those things in the forties you protect the family's

618
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: on or you just don't put in the newspaper and

619
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: she was raped because that's just not what you do.

620
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 1: But you know, Okay, so we've gone an the investigation

621
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: and we've gone into some of the stuff that's going on,

622
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: and then let's go ahead and let's talk about who

623
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,919
Speaker 1: they were trying to get to pin the murders on,

624
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: because the police obviously want to catch somebody, and they

625
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:55,399
Speaker 1: went through about four hundred suspects. They are like, they

626
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: arrested four hundred people. They investigated four hundred suspects, which

627
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: I mean, which I presumed to believe means brought in

628
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: for questioning as suspects. And the Jimmy Hollis and Mary

629
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: Larry case, Uh, no suspects were apprehended. I think probably

630
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: because the police didn't necessarily believe that. Yeah, I get

631
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: the impression they weren't taking it seriously. They were, Yeah,

632
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: and you know, they had been assaulted, but they weren't dead.

633
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: They had been assaulted, as his skull was cracked at

634
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: three places. Yeah, it's something you know. So, but for

635
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: Richard Griffin and Polly Moore. Um, over two hundred people

636
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: were questioned, uh and at least two hundred false tips

637
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: and leads were checked. So like, it was a pretty

638
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 1: extensive investigation that they did. People were basically calling in

639
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: anything they saw that they thought related. Yeah, because you know,

640
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: they were clearly linked to this assault that had happened before,

641
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 1: and so people were starting to take it kind of seriously. Um.

642
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: Three suspects were taken into custody because they had bloody clothing. UM.

643
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: Two of them were released after officers received good alibis.

644
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: One of them was held in Texas for further investigation,

645
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: but was later freed from suspicion. Okay, So in the

646
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 1: Martin and Booker case, you remember that was the one

647
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,839
Speaker 1: involving the saxophone sixteen and fifteen years old. Uh, there

648
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: was a taxi driver who was a suspect because his

649
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: cab was seen in the vicinity of the crime scene.

650
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: Obviously that lead nowhere, they received the lead from the

651
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: band leader of the band that she was in that

652
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 1: she had had her saxophone with her and so that

653
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: at that excited a lot of interest with the police.

654
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: The saxophone. Again, it's too bad they didn't search the

655
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: woods around the body a little more carefully and find

656
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 1: the saxophone. That wouldn't have wasted so much time. So

657
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: the guy was arrested in Corpus Christi, Texas or trying

658
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: to sell a saxophone in a music store. He walked

659
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: in without an instrument and as a salesperson if they

660
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: wanted to buy an Alto Bundy saxophone anyway, well he didn't.

661
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 1: He didn't what was because he didn't have it. He

662
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,439
Speaker 1: didn't have it, And she says, you know, theoretically, would

663
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: you like to buy a saxophone? And the clerk claimed

664
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: that the nancy nervous, the man left. When the manager

665
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 1: was summoned, they contacted the police and he was arrested

666
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,959
Speaker 1: two days later the Waterfront Hotel after purchasing a forty

667
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: five revolver from a pawn shop. That's that's not suspicious,

668
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: but you know it's not really. I mean, obviously the

669
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 1: real killer if he was going to purchase something from

670
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: a pawnshop, it would be a thirty two automatic. Of course, Yeah,

671
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: so she was. He was identified by the sales girls

672
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 1: the same man who tried to sell the saxophone. They

673
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 1: didn't find any saxophone in his possession, although in this

674
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 1: hotel room they found a bag of bloody clothing. Uh.

675
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: He claimed that the blood was from a cut he

676
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 1: received in his forehead in the bar fight. Uh. They

677
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: grilled him for several days. Man, apparently everything he everything

678
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: he told him was checked out and it was all true.

679
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: So the police at the end decided that they really

680
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: couldn't hold a guy. They really they had no case,

681
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: I mean, trying to operating to sell somebody a saxophone

682
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 1: is you know. And and as it turns out in

683
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: the answers, we know the saxophone was later found in

684
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: the shrubbery near her body. You obviously a bit of

685
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: a red guy might have been a bit, a bit

686
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: of a questionable character, but obviously he had nothing to

687
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: do with the murder, right And and you know, in

688
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: the murder of Virginal Starts and the attack on his wife,

689
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: several people were found in the vicinity of their home

690
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 1: and they were all stopped and questioned. Twelve people were detained.

691
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 1: Nine of them were basically immediately released, and then the

692
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: same thing the remaining three. Their alibis checked out and

693
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: they were released as well. They had some people that

694
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: were obviously more persons of interests than others. You know,

695
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 1: a lot of people washed out in the beginning of

696
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: their you know, their alibi checked out very clearly. They

697
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 1: didn't seem to actually, you know, fit any kind of profile.

698
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,399
Speaker 1: But there were some really interesting ones, one of which

699
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: was a German prisoner of war suspect. So on May eight,

700
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,919
Speaker 1: it was announced that an escaped German prisoner of war

701
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 1: was considered a suspect um and he was hunted as

702
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 1: a matter of routine. He was described as a twenty

703
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: four year old weighing one and eighty seven pounds with

704
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,919
Speaker 1: brown hair and blue eyes. Uh. He stole a car

705
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: and then attempted to buy ammunition in lots of places

706
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: in Oklahoma. So the night before his apprehension on May seven,

707
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: a black man named Herbert Thomas was flagged down by

708
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 1: a hitchhiker. The man said that he needed a ride

709
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: because his mother was seriously ill, and offered five dollars.

710
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: Thomas fell for The SOB story basically you know, he said,

711
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 1: I wouldn't normally pick someone up, but he told a

712
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: really sad story. When they got close to the place

713
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 1: that the hitchhiker said he was going, the hitchhiker pulled

714
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 1: out a pistol and told Thomas to keep driving or

715
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,760
Speaker 1: he would kill him like the five people he killed

716
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,800
Speaker 1: in tech Sarcana, mentioning Paul Martin and Betty Joe Booker

717
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: by name, which would have been suspicious except for you know,

718
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: there's such a snowball fear it's everywhere. Yes, it's almost

719
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: an easy story, super easy. Yeah. He made Thomas stop

720
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,240
Speaker 1: in a small town and told him to drive back,

721
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 1: and then if you followed him, he would trail him

722
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: and kill him. He also told Thomas that he had

723
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: planned to go back to tex Arcana to kill Martin's father,

724
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: which is a little weird, a little weird because his

725
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,839
Speaker 1: father was already dead, which was even weirder. Yeah, So

726
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: the man stole the five, stole back the five dollars

727
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: that he had given to Thomas, as well as an

728
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: additional three dollars in that time, some substantially decent money

729
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,879
Speaker 1: in the couple of not even a couple of Yeah,

730
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,439
Speaker 1: but that's a good amount, um he. So Thomas drove

731
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: back to Kilgore, the place that he was originally going,

732
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: and immediately reported it. He was described as being about

733
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: five eight and thirty pounds and about eight years old,

734
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 1: with red hair, and wore khaki trousers. On the same night,

735
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: May seven, a local resident named Robert Atkinson spotted a

736
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: peeping tom in his window. Atkinson grabbed a flashlight and pursued,

737
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 1: but the man escaped. Um Atkinson got in his car

738
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 1: and went looking for him. He caught the man he

739
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 1: believed to be the peeping tom and put him under

740
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 1: citizens arrest, but the man said, no, that wasn't me.

741
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 1: So Atkins said, okay, I guess that wasn't you, and

742
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: let him go. Uh. He later heard about the story

743
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 1: with Thomas and decided that he should probably tell the police.

744
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: Um And described a man very very similar to what

745
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 1: Thomas had described his hitchhiker looked like, and Gonzalez stated

746
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: that quote, we don't believe the man who killed five

747
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: people here in the past six weeks would boast about

748
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: his crimes and then let the negro go. It's not

749
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 1: totally sure if he was the prisoner of war if

750
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 1: what what necessarily happened truly circumstantial, and they're saying that

751
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: he kind of vanished into thin air. Yeah, well, plus

752
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 1: you know, and you know, talk is cheap. You know,

753
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: anybody can reads the papers, can say, you know, I

754
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 1: got killed all of them people in techs arcana, It

755
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 1: would have an a timidating effect. There was another suspect.

756
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: Obviously again didn't go anywhere this guy was. And well, okay,

757
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 1: maintense Tokya, Oklahoma. So this was not long after the

758
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: last murders. A man walked up to a woman's house

759
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: and opened her screen door. Asked this, asked the person

760
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: living there, and it's just harmon, if you could have

761
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: some turpentine, food and money. Now that's a puzzler. I

762
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 1: really want some turpentines, some food, and some money. So

763
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 1: she told the man that she had very little turpentine

764
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: and no money your food. So then he grabbed her

765
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,439
Speaker 1: by the hair, dragged her out onto the porch, said

766
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 1: he might as well kill her. Said she had already

767
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 1: killed three or four persons and he was going to

768
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 1: rape her, And then he heard a horse galloping towards

769
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 1: him and took off. So she took her child with

770
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: her to a neighbor's house and called the police, and

771
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: there was a neighborhood neighborhood searched the man, which included

772
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: twenty officers and in in about a hundred sixty civilians. Uh.

773
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: She had described as five nine or ten, white, five

774
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: years old, hundred fifty pounds, dark hair, and badly in

775
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 1: need of a shade, carrying a five inch folding pocket knife,

776
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: wearing gloves, faded blue short with khakis, an old, dirty,

777
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 1: dark colored floppy hat. So they found a suspect that

778
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,359
Speaker 1: fit that description. He was thirty three years old, didn't

779
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: quite imagine all respects. He was also clean shaven. They

780
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 1: decided to keep him in the jail for about three

781
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: weeks and so his beard would grow back and then

782
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: she could look at him again and decided if you

783
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: picked the description. So but yeah, it turns out that

784
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: they checked out his story. And you know, again talk

785
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: is cheap, so it does not appear this, this is

786
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: the lead against didn't didn't really pan out. It's kind of,

787
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 1: you know, thinking about the amount of policeman hours that

788
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 1: went into investigating this whole thing. Yeah, yeah, I mean

789
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 1: lots and lots of investigative time. Spent by multiple bureaus.

790
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, So there's another suspect. There a lot

791
00:43:56,080 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 1: of suspects, a lot um. And this guy came forward

792
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: on May. Um. He's twenty one years old. He was

793
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 1: an ex Army Force B twenty four machine gunner. His

794
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: name was Ralph Bauman, and he was in Los Angeles.

795
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: He turned himself into the police and he said he

796
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 1: might be the phantom. He said he's been in a

797
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 1: coma running from something, maybe murder. He wanted to clear

798
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 1: it up. Um. And he said, if he didn't kill

799
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: five people in tex Arcana, he wants to settle down

800
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 1: and be a stuntman in Hollywood because he was the

801
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: happiest when he was living in danger. And then he

802
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: told a reporter quote, I want to sell you some

803
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 1: murder information. I know who and where the tex Arcana

804
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 1: killer is. Give me five dollars and let me have

805
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 1: an hour start and I'll put the information in a

806
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: sealed envelope. The report called the police obviously, Um, and

807
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,240
Speaker 1: he read the note and it said, on a certain

808
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 1: day in March, I was in our tex Arcana theater

809
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: watching a path movie of the news picture of the war.

810
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 1: Thank you, And when a part of persons acted wise

811
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: and said over acting it kind of got to me.

812
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: I followed them home. I killed them within a period

813
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 1: of three days. So yeah, that's a little. That's a little.

814
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 1: I find it hard to believe the reporter actually gave

815
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: him five bucks. Yeah. So the police arrested this man

816
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 1: who was a redhead. So yeah, he was in a

817
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 1: downtown shooting gallery. He had just shot his twenty three

818
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 1: bulls eye in a row with a twenty two rifle.

819
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 1: So again, something Bauman said is quota to have said, Um,

820
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 1: I'm my own suspect. He said he was in a

821
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 1: coma for several weeks. I think that he really means

822
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: he was blacked out for several weeks that he just

823
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 1: doesn't remember. He has no memory of, not that he

824
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,240
Speaker 1: was in a comma, like he was incapacity in a hospital.

825
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 1: And he said he woke up from it and he

826
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: felt like he was running from something. Um, he had

827
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 1: come to on May three and his rifle was missing,

828
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: and he'd heard about a suspect matching his description, which

829
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 1: would have been the prisoner of war suspects. He hit

830
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: chiked all the way to Los Angeles because he thought

831
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: he was running for murder. He was discharged from the

832
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 1: Air Force for being a psychonotic. Yeah. Yeah, that again

833
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 1: that that almost sounds like he's proclaiming something just to

834
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: get it to Yeah. And Wallace Gonzolvz was quoted as saying,

835
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 1: I feel the man is certainly a mental case. The

836
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 1: tech arkanic killings could not have been the work of

837
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: a mental case. We have absolutely this man has an

838
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 1: absolutely no facts. Yeah. Well, and another one that we've

839
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: got is that the police arrested a thirtysomething year old

840
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,800
Speaker 1: black man based on the fact that his tire tracks

841
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,839
Speaker 1: were found on the opposite side of the road from

842
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 1: Paul Martin's corpse. I feel like it's nineteen forties. How

843
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 1: many different tires are there? Well, I think there actually

844
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: was quite a few. But the thing is is, after,

845
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: you know, the police detained him and after he failed

846
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: a polygraph test. They because he was still denying everything,

847
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 1: and then of course the polygraph does a pass it,

848
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 1: they decided that they're going to hypnotize him. He was

849
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 1: taken to a psychiatrist and hypnotized, at which point the

850
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: hypnotist said, you've got the wrong man, and this guy

851
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:23,280
Speaker 1: has no criminal tendencies. It eventually came out that after

852
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 1: having been arrested by the police, the reason that he

853
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: had been lying about why he was doing what he

854
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: was was that he said, Okay, here's what really happened.

855
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 1: I pulled over and I needed to use the restrooms.

856
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: So he urinated onside the road and then drove away.

857
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,240
Speaker 1: But he was lying the whole time, and the reason

858
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: he failed the polygraph is he wasn't He was trying

859
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: not to disclose the fact that he was having an

860
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 1: affair with a merry woman, so he was trying to

861
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: protect himself and her at the same time, and that

862
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,320
Speaker 1: didn't go so well. Yeah, so that that's that's a

863
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 1: little bit of a what I mean, because I don't

864
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 1: know how you can hypnotize somebody against their will. It's

865
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,800
Speaker 1: a little I suspect that he didn't have a problem

866
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 1: being hypnotized so much. He knew they knew he didn't

867
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 1: do it. He didn't do it, and he I think

868
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 1: he also probably knew, you know, it's a doctor some

869
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 1: doctor client privilege here that he could have said, you know,

870
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 1: but I think you know, a psychiatrist isn't gonna say, oh, yeah,

871
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: he's having a fair he's gonna say, well, he didn't

872
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 1: murder him, right, or he did murder them. But what

873
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 1: I love is but what I love about is like,

874
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 1: you know that the police were a little skeptical to

875
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: apparently according to this story, and accord of course, you know,

876
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: as we know from longer heart experienced stories tend to

877
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 1: get a little bit modified. But if it's true, it's

878
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: pretty funny because in a sort of appalling way, because

879
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 1: the psychiatrist he hypnotized him, because the police were skeptical, well,

880
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 1: as he really under is he really hypnotized. So so

881
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 1: he basically told the guy, told the suspect that you

882
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: basically had no no feeling in your left side whatsoever,

883
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: and then took a cigarette and stuck it on the

884
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: guy's arm and earned him and he made yeah, and

885
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 1: he made he and he didn't react at all upon

886
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:09,359
Speaker 1: being burned with a cigarette and then yeah, yeah, And

887
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: so that's and that's why the police were convinced that, well,

888
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: I guess he really is hypnotized. I liked I like this,

889
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:20,399
Speaker 1: you know, the casual Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Yeah, let's

890
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 1: see there's another one, and this is obviously just bs.

891
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 1: Some guy, some guy was a drunk. Uh. One of

892
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: the local sheriff's traveled to Streeport, Louisiana after being notified

893
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 1: that the police there were holding a man of custody

894
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: for confessing to the crimes. He was arrested at a

895
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 1: bar when he told his story to a news reporter.

896
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 1: He didn't know the guy was a news reporter. The

897
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 1: reporter promised the man a fifth of whiskey if he

898
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 1: would tell all, And so he told all. He and

899
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,439
Speaker 1: so the police picked him up after the reporter read

900
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 1: it him out. And then when Tilman Johnson, the sheriff's deputy,

901
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 1: arrived in Treeport, Uh, he recognized the guy. He was

902
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 1: an alcoholic who from texar Can who confessed the crime before.

903
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 1: And he called the guys but at by name and says,

904
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 1: you know you didn't kill those people, what'd you go

905
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 1: and do this for? And then the guy replied, well,

906
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: how I got a fifth whiskey? Yeah, so yeah, yeah,

907
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: another another false confession. Not worry. I know you're getting impatient.

908
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:22,479
Speaker 1: You want us to solve the crime, and we will,

909
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 1: But you got this thing is full of so many

910
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: weird confessions. And here's okay, So the next one that

911
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 1: we got is got weird confessions in it. Let me okay,

912
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 1: let me just run in Yeah, alright. So one of

913
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: the Arkansas State Police officers had realized that a car

914
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:46,280
Speaker 1: had been stolen on each of the nights or nights

915
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: previous to the murders and then was found abandoned after

916
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 1: the fact. Uh So, on June eighth, n this officer,

917
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 1: Max Tackett, went and found a car that had been

918
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 1: reported stolen in a parking lot, and he staked that

919
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 1: car out, so he knew this car was stolen. So

920
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,280
Speaker 1: he watches it and a twenty one year old woman

921
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,240
Speaker 1: walks up and starts to get in the car, and

922
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: he of course confronts her. She says, well, I've just

923
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:24,800
Speaker 1: been married and my husband, who's uh is in Atlanta.

924
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 1: Uh he stole the car and he's in Atlanta selling

925
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:32,280
Speaker 1: another car that he stole. So the guy was obviously,

926
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 1: you know, fencing hot cars all the time. So they

927
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 1: go and they try and track him down, and they

928
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: had found somebody that this guy had tried. His name,

929
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 1: by the way, it was Yole Swinney, and Yol had

930
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: evidently tried to sell the guy a car but at

931
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 1: one point and the guy said, no, I don't want

932
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 1: to buy this car for whatever reason. So the cops said, well,

933
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 1: you would recognize him, right, Well, yeah, I would. So

934
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:00,800
Speaker 1: they went went him to this uh what was it

935
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 1: the city bus depot, I believe in the unit station. Yeah.

936
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:09,359
Speaker 1: And when they when the when you'll saw the guy

937
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,800
Speaker 1: that he tried to sell the car to with a cop,

938
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: he turned around and ran this state police offic search

939
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 1: you know, caught him, wouldn't let him go, obviously, got him,

940
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 1: knocked him down whatever it was, coughed him. Uh. And

941
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: at that point they were going to go ahead and

942
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 1: uh and haul him in. Well, the weird things that

943
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 1: come up with him is that when they put him

944
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: in the car, You'll says, hell, I know what you

945
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 1: want me for. You want me for more than stealing cars,

946
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 1: which is a little weird. And he said that statement

947
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 1: more than once. And he said, you guys are gonna

948
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 1: give me the chair, aren't you, And then tack it.

949
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: I recall said something like, well, now, we usually don't

950
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 1: get people a chair for stealing car. Yeah, yeah, exactly,

951
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: except that everybody's like, wait, wait, this is a little weird.

952
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,839
Speaker 1: When they interviewed his wife when they had him in custody,

953
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 1: she knew some details about the murders that hadn't been released.

954
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 1: She knew the details inside and out, which was a

955
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 1: little odd. But she also knew about the fact that

956
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 1: there was a date book that had been found at

957
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 1: the murder of the Martin Brooker murder scene that the

958
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 1: police hadn't told anyone about. And so these things are

959
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: adding up. Suddenly it's we're getting an avalanche of information.

960
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, Yold turns around and

961
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: clams up and says, I, Nope, I don't know what

962
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 1: you're talking about. Nope, I'm not talking. I'm not doing anything. So,

963
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 1: being great detectives, they decided that they're going to go ahead.

964
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: And what is it they were. They decided they were

965
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 1: gonna give him sodium pentethal thank you, which is a

966
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 1: truth serum. It's basically gonna make a talk, except unfortunately

967
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 1: they gave him too much and it knocked him out,

968
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 1: so he was unconscious. As they began to uh to

969
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 1: be building a vest negation against you ole, his wife

970
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 1: suddenly did a one eighty and refused to talk to

971
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 1: the police anymore and denied ever saying anything about the murders.

972
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:16,240
Speaker 1: And because of the law at that time, she couldn't

973
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: be made to testify against her husband, and so she

974
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 1: was considered an unreliable witness, so they couldn't pursue him

975
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 1: for the murders. He eventually was put in jail for

976
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: about twenty years for multiple car thefts, but they could

977
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 1: never pin him to these murders. That that might explain

978
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 1: that if he was locked away and if he actually

979
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 1: was a murderer, and then maybe that could explain why

980
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 1: they stopped. Yeah. Maybe, But there's some details that we're

981
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 1: going to get into, because there's some there's some fallout,

982
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: there's some aftermath, but through some of these people, well,

983
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:57,839
Speaker 1: I mean, that's one of the ones that's like really compelling, right,

984
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,880
Speaker 1: And this one I think is really compelling. Two And

985
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 1: on November five night, so a couple of years after

986
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:08,760
Speaker 1: these orders, and eighteen year old freshman he called himself

987
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 1: do be Tennyson Uh from Arkansas University found dead at

988
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 1: home in Arkansas. He'd kill himself with cyanide of mercury uh.

989
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 1: And there was a suicide note and it read the

990
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: opening of my box will be found in the following

991
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,959
Speaker 1: few lines, and a tube of paper is found rolls

992
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 1: on color, and it is dry and sound. The head removes,

993
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: the tail will turn, and the inside of the sheets.

994
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 1: You yearn two bees mean a lot when they are together.

995
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 1: These clues should lead you to it. So he his

996
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 1: suicide note was a riddle. He was basically kind of

997
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 1: toying with his police or whoever um so. But obviously

998
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 1: police were notified of this, and so they found another

999
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: note inside of a fountain pen and there was poison

1000
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 1: on the cap, and there were clues that like led

1001
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 1: them on this goose chase to a lock box that

1002
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 1: had a combination lock on it, and since they weren't

1003
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:08,839
Speaker 1: really in the mood for games, they decided to just

1004
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:12,439
Speaker 1: blow the lock off the box instead of trying that, yeah,

1005
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:14,360
Speaker 1: there's pride and open, instead of trying to like figure

1006
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 1: out the combination. And there was a note in there.

1007
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 1: So inside that box, among other things, they found this

1008
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: final farewell note that was not a riddle um in

1009
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 1: which he thanked the people who were bringing him up.

1010
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 1: He professed his love to a twelve year old girl,

1011
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:34,919
Speaker 1: and he also confessed to some of the murders. He says,

1012
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: why did I take my own life? Well, when you

1013
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 1: commit two double murders. You would too. Yes, I did

1014
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 1: kill Betty, Joe Brooker, and Paul Martin in the city

1015
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 1: Park that night, and then killed Mr Starks and tried

1016
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 1: to get Mrs Starks. You wouldn't have guessed it. I

1017
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,319
Speaker 1: guess when my mother was either out or asleep, and

1018
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 1: no no one saw me do it. For the guns,

1019
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 1: I disassembled them and discarded them in different places. And

1020
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 1: then he goes on to what you know, list things

1021
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,320
Speaker 1: that he wants for people to be given. The weird

1022
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:04,320
Speaker 1: thing about him is, I don't know if you saw

1023
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 1: this in the some of the research that's out there.

1024
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 1: Uh So he hand wrote these letters out before he

1025
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:15,280
Speaker 1: typed them up, and then they found other notes from

1026
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 1: him that were drafts, and then follow up version that's

1027
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 1: something along the lines of please disregard the previous notes

1028
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 1: that I wrote, which is just strained. Yeah, he was

1029
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: a weird guy. I mean, you know, you don't. I

1030
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 1: can't totally figure out what is going on. It's clearly

1031
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 1: a very troubled mind. Beyond just the suicidal tendencies. The

1032
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 1: fact that you know you would kill yourself with this

1033
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 1: riddle note that leads people on a goose chase. Is

1034
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 1: kind of like, at least in movies, indicative of the

1035
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 1: kind of a psychopathic character. Um, and if he was

1036
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: in love with twelve year old girls, there's something not there.

1037
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 1: So I don't really know what to make of that.

1038
00:57:58,000 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 1: You know, he doesn't confess to all of the murder,

1039
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,960
Speaker 1: only couple of them. Some of them, Uh, he may

1040
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:06,920
Speaker 1: have been capable of it. So I don't know. And

1041
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 1: the hard part is, I remember the research that talked

1042
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 1: about his his other notes that he had written, was

1043
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 1: the fact that his friends who because he was from

1044
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:22,080
Speaker 1: that area, who who? Then you heard about his suicide,

1045
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 1: said oh, yeah, there's no way that he could have

1046
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 1: done that murder because he was with us that night.

1047
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 1: Now is it someone coming forward saying, yeah, I'm sorry,

1048
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:35,479
Speaker 1: he was troubled and he really didn't do it. Or yeah,

1049
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 1: he he took his own life. Let's go ahead and

1050
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 1: cover for him and protect him for a time on.

1051
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 1: Or it's also possible that he confessed in a suicide

1052
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: now because he was protecting somebody else who knew committed

1053
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 1: to murder. Yeah. I like that al right, So let's

1054
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:02,080
Speaker 1: see there wasn't another there another murder? Uh? In on

1055
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 1: May seven? This is about the Starts. The Starts were murdered.

1056
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 1: Virgil Starts was murdered. So, and you know, not necessarily related,

1057
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 1: but a body was found on the Kansas City Southern

1058
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 1: Railway tracks about sixty miles north of Texarkana, UM. He

1059
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 1: was lying face down inside the track with his head

1060
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 1: to the north. His left arm was severed at the

1061
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 1: elbow and his leg was severed at the hip Because

1062
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 1: they were across the tracks. A freight train had passed

1063
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 1: about five thirty am and chopped him off. So let's

1064
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 1: take it to a funeral. And yeah, that sounds unpleasant.

1065
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 1: Corner's verdict stated depth at the hands of persons unknown

1066
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 1: and that he was dead before being placed on the

1067
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 1: railroad tracks. So we got a potential six victim. Yeah,

1068
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 1: so I mean, yeah, so you killed him and then

1069
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 1: he tossed him the tracks just for the front of it.

1070
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 1: But but the love the county sheriff there believed that

1071
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 1: the man had died because he fell into the wheels

1072
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 1: of a passing freight train. Corner examined the body a

1073
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 1: second time and found further evidence of murder. They explained,

1074
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 1: we found a deep cut over the man, his temple

1075
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 1: two inches wide and one and a half inches long,

1076
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 1: which would probably be enough to cause death. Uh See,

1077
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 1: they also found catch about his hands and wrists, which

1078
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 1: indicate that he Those are the defensive wounds. Somebody's coming

1079
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:14,920
Speaker 1: at you with a knife, usually try to block the

1080
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 1: knife of your arms. So yeah, so he was defending

1081
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 1: himself with stuff from somebody with a knife. So and so,

1082
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 1: apparently he was either very deeply wounded to the point

1083
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 1: where he couldn't defend himself and then thrown on the train,

1084
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 1: thrown under the train, or he was killed and then

1085
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 1: his body thrown on the tracks. But the corner believed

1086
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 1: that he was dead for a full two hours before

1087
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:35,640
Speaker 1: being put on the tracks, and that there wasn't enough

1088
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 1: blood around the wounds which caused his death. In other words,

1089
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:42,160
Speaker 1: in other words, the wounds that caused his death blood

1090
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 1: out somewhere else and he was taken to the tracks.

1091
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 1: So that you get another reason. Uh there was blood

1092
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 1: found in the street near the crime scene, which supports

1093
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 1: that theory. Share the sheriff still believes that it was

1094
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 1: accidental and the man was probably trying to jump the

1095
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 1: train and just fell onto the wheels. About the corner

1096
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 1: in the corners believed differently. So the man was fine

1097
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 1: identified Earl Cliff mcspadden from a Social Security card that

1098
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 1: he had on him. His his brother contacted the contact

1099
01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:10,280
Speaker 1: of the funeral home after hearing about his death on

1100
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:14,480
Speaker 1: the radio, and he reported that his brother was a

1101
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 1: transient oil storage tank builder, which is interesting thing to

1102
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:21,560
Speaker 1: be transient over and basically he was basically a guy

1103
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 1: on the road work on the road down to Yeah.

1104
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 1: So so anyway, I it appears that that was completely unrelated,

1105
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:31,320
Speaker 1: although you never know, I mean, I didn't there's no

1106
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:34,440
Speaker 1: thirty two caliber bullet holes and the guys, but you know,

1107
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 1: there there are other there are other deaths at the

1108
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 1: time that seemed unrelated but could be. Uh, there were

1109
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:47,720
Speaker 1: two women before I think it was just before or

1110
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 1: just after the Stark murder. A woman was found dead

1111
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 1: in the street shot by a thirty two and then

1112
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 1: another woman was found dead with a thirty two at

1113
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:04,760
Speaker 1: her feet. And they don't fit the profile except that

1114
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,920
Speaker 1: they're at the same time, in the same town with

1115
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 1: the same caliber. Well, yeah, that's weird that they aren't

1116
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 1: classed with these, but you know, I mean, and it's possible.

1117
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 1: But again, back in those days, thirty two caliber was

1118
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:21,919
Speaker 1: very popular, and that's the hard part is you know, okay, well, yeah,

1119
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 1: a lot of people had that gun, so we don't know.

1120
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:29,200
Speaker 1: And nobody was ever charged with the murders of these

1121
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 1: two women, so we don't know, you know, are they

1122
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 1: the seventh and eighth victims or are they just unrelated? Yeah? Yeah,

1123
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 1: So there are a couple of things that come up

1124
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 1: in this that are kind of interesting, one of which

1125
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:46,080
Speaker 1: is years after the murders, they were about to demolish

1126
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:49,320
Speaker 1: a school in tex Sarcana Um and they were going

1127
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 1: through and clearing everything out, and they were going through

1128
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:54,320
Speaker 1: the attic and a pile of blood stained clothing was

1129
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 1: found in the attic elementary school that they're about to demolish,

1130
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 1: which is the pretty kind of creepy thing. Now, I

1131
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:04,160
Speaker 1: thought I saw something that it turned out that was

1132
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 1: actually just paint stained clothing. I don't know, Maybe I

1133
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 1: don't know, I remember think of evidence. But the thing,

1134
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:15,200
Speaker 1: you know that's really interesting is that I only saw

1135
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:18,440
Speaker 1: this one place. But again I want to bring it up,

1136
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 1: is that a lot it seems to be that most

1137
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 1: of the files and evidence that tex Arcana and Texas

1138
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 1: law enforcement agencies should have on this case are gone.

1139
01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 1: And maybe that's just age, but it isn't. It is

1140
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:36,520
Speaker 1: open murder investigations. It's never been. It seems the files

1141
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 1: have just kind of disappeared. That's not unusual. There was

1142
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:44,000
Speaker 1: and they do. And there was a rumor going around

1143
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 1: the suspected phantom killer was rumored to be from a

1144
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:51,800
Speaker 1: quote well to do tex Arcana family, So they knew

1145
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 1: who he was, but they weren't but they could pursuing

1146
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 1: him because his family had so much influence. Seems unlikely. Well,

1147
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 1: but you you that that's the stuff. This whole thing

1148
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 1: is as the bad movie that was made. Stuff of

1149
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 1: movies and totally we can't go after the guy that

1150
01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 1: we know who did it because his family will bury

1151
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 1: the whole Yeah, so that they go through the Hollywood venue.

1152
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:21,560
Speaker 1: That that theory right there kind of makes sense saying it.

1153
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 1: It's but in Texarkana, are there any actual well to

1154
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:33,640
Speaker 1: do families Texas? Yeah? People, you know, we're rich. That

1155
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 1: didn't seem to be rich because people are making fortunes

1156
01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:37,360
Speaker 1: all over the place. Yeah. And you know, the other

1157
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:40,640
Speaker 1: really interesting connection that you see all over the internet

1158
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 1: is a connection to the zodiac. Yeah, which I kind

1159
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: of like there's some interesting connections, and you know, it's

1160
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:50,600
Speaker 1: like twenty years later, it's in sixty and sixty nine

1161
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:53,640
Speaker 1: is the Zodiac murders, right, So I guess when we're

1162
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 1: talking about the car thief, he went away for like

1163
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:00,400
Speaker 1: twenty years and then came back out and he seemed

1164
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 1: to be a really viable suspect. So the fact that

1165
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:08,680
Speaker 1: murders of this type disappeared for twenty years and then well,

1166
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:11,920
Speaker 1: the problem, the problem with with yol is that he

1167
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 1: was still in jail when the Zodiac he was. And

1168
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:19,960
Speaker 1: here's the other thing is that what what basically put

1169
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 1: the nail in the coffin for him being the killer

1170
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 1: was that in South Florida, I believe it was, there

1171
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 1: was at least one or if not two double murders

1172
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:36,600
Speaker 1: in the late sixties that took place with a thirty

1173
01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:42,960
Speaker 1: eight on Lover's Lane. Excuse me, correct. So they talked

1174
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:46,520
Speaker 1: about the similarities with the Zodiac crimes, and I think

1175
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 1: it's interesting, you know, the time periods kind of fit.

1176
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:53,800
Speaker 1: If you take the Texarcanam murders and then you take

1177
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:57,400
Speaker 1: the Florida murders. You know, we're talking about if it

1178
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:00,919
Speaker 1: had maybe been a teen in Texarcana who shipped off

1179
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 1: to the war for a couple of years. He was

1180
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:07,400
Speaker 1: getting his murder fix in there. Came back, went to

1181
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 1: Florida because it's a nice place to be for a

1182
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 1: little while. And then and then you know, well, because

1183
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:15,680
Speaker 1: you know, the drive is there, right, But if you

1184
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 1: have the psychotic drive, it doesn't go away. Yeah. So

1185
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:23,560
Speaker 1: in the Zodiac crimes as well as our crimes, right,

1186
01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:27,240
Speaker 1: the suspect war hood, the suspect use a flashlight to

1187
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:31,920
Speaker 1: blind victims in cars. The suspect use different types of handguns.

1188
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:35,680
Speaker 1: They mostly the attacks were done on lover's lanes and

1189
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:39,920
Speaker 1: the victims were young. They're both kind of rough and

1190
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:44,960
Speaker 1: tumble areas with blue collar air, blue collar families, and

1191
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 1: lots of military presence. The suspects all changed both changed

1192
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 1: ms later in their spreeze. They were both labeled Phantom ish.

1193
01:06:56,920 --> 01:07:00,960
Speaker 1: Oh the Phantom now where the f to part community

1194
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 1: y Zodiac. The Zodiac Suspected Zodiac letter that was sent

1195
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 1: to Marco Spinelli in eighteen seventy four referred to himself

1196
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:13,960
Speaker 1: as the Red Phantom. Oh, I didn't know, so, you know,

1197
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 1: And it's obviously a loose connection, but it was still

1198
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 1: a little bit of they're all kind of loose. Yeah,

1199
01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 1: stolen cars reported before every murder um and the Zodiac

1200
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:28,800
Speaker 1: murderer acquired multiple vehicles. He had lots of different cars

1201
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 1: that he drove around all the time. There's lots of

1202
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 1: car stolen car situations around. The Zodiac killer was considered

1203
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:40,400
Speaker 1: to be from Texas, the Texas area because he used

1204
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:43,760
Speaker 1: a lot of kind of Southern phrases like fiddle and

1205
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 1: fart around. Was that in one of the letters that

1206
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:50,360
Speaker 1: he wrote. Yeah, and he wrote a lot a lot

1207
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:55,760
Speaker 1: of Yeah, he shot female victims through the jaw and

1208
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:59,960
Speaker 1: tongue just like this is it was a star. Yeah.

1209
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:03,000
Speaker 1: So there's some I mean, you know, they're loose connections,

1210
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:06,520
Speaker 1: but I guess when we're talking about serial killers, some

1211
01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:09,520
Speaker 1: of these some of these connections are really kind of hilarious.

1212
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:12,600
Speaker 1: Like this last one. Suspect may have frequented restaurants and

1213
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:18,719
Speaker 1: other suspected Zodiac activity, Well, yeah, gone to the same place.

1214
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:25,559
Speaker 1: I guess we're Yeah, that's why you're always is is no.

1215
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:28,360
Speaker 1: So I think that's really interesting. You know, you think

1216
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 1: about serial killers m O evolving a little bit, you know,

1217
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:38,360
Speaker 1: especially over thirty year period, you know, you start out exploring,

1218
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:42,280
Speaker 1: and that may even explain why the rapes and the like,

1219
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:46,280
Speaker 1: really horrific sexual assaults that happened earlier, or the inability

1220
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:49,000
Speaker 1: to actually kill his victims the first couple of times.

1221
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:52,880
Speaker 1: These kind of people who do these things, they tend

1222
01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:57,880
Speaker 1: to warm up and explore. So there may have been

1223
01:08:58,120 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 1: assault that didn't get reported because he just walked up

1224
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:06,160
Speaker 1: to somebody with a gun and threatened him and then

1225
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:10,240
Speaker 1: clocked him in the headwalk. I mean, they tend to

1226
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:15,000
Speaker 1: escalate looking for thank you. They escalate and they build

1227
01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:17,040
Speaker 1: and then as you said, they find their m O

1228
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:20,200
Speaker 1: and run. So I mean there's there's a lot of

1229
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:23,120
Speaker 1: ways that that could go. But I just this is

1230
01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:25,800
Speaker 1: the thing that drives me crazy about this story is

1231
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:32,120
Speaker 1: there's no theory slash suspect that I could put my

1232
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:37,439
Speaker 1: money against. That's the thing that drives me nuts about this. Yeah. Well, yeah,

1233
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:39,760
Speaker 1: it happened a long time ago, so obviously, you know,

1234
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:41,800
Speaker 1: you could come up with a good theory of how, why,

1235
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:44,559
Speaker 1: and whatever. And I think there's there's some reasonable ones

1236
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:47,599
Speaker 1: out there, but you know, most of the people involved

1237
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:50,720
Speaker 1: along dead. Yeah, they're long on so well, and a

1238
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:53,320
Speaker 1: lot of them went on record and we're in books

1239
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 1: and stories, but he just I don't know on this one. Yeah,

1240
01:09:57,320 --> 01:09:59,240
Speaker 1: I don't know either. I think that I think a

1241
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:02,720
Speaker 1: strong post ability is that, you know, the the eight victims,

1242
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 1: I think probably there was only maybe one that this

1243
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:09,320
Speaker 1: guy wanted to kill and the rest were just too basically,

1244
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:12,160
Speaker 1: you know, put up a little cloud of bs around

1245
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:16,960
Speaker 1: the whole thing. Let me to basically cover his tracks,

1246
01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:19,320
Speaker 1: cover his tracks. Okay, if I'm known to have a

1247
01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:22,400
Speaker 1: strong motive to murder you, then if I'm going to

1248
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:24,960
Speaker 1: murder you, I'm going to proceed it with a crime,

1249
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna have After that, I'm gonna murder a

1250
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:30,600
Speaker 1: couple more people, people that I had no connection to whatsoever,

1251
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:32,800
Speaker 1: And that would be one way that that would be

1252
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:35,559
Speaker 1: one way to cover that thing. So if I were

1253
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:37,720
Speaker 1: if I were investigating this, and again, you know, I

1254
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:40,760
Speaker 1: wouldn't confine my investigation just to this. But if I

1255
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 1: were back to the time investigating this, I would look

1256
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:46,680
Speaker 1: into Mr Richard Griffin twenty nine, because he was a

1257
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:49,000
Speaker 1: guy in the second attack, the first you know, the

1258
01:10:49,040 --> 01:10:51,519
Speaker 1: first two people he didn't kill. He didn't murder them

1259
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:53,880
Speaker 1: because he didn't really need to and he might have

1260
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:55,960
Speaker 1: actually wanted to leave them alife for a reason. I'm

1261
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:58,240
Speaker 1: not sure why, but you know, it might might have

1262
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:00,080
Speaker 1: very might very well have been that, you know, he

1263
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:02,960
Speaker 1: wanted he wanted them. Maybe he wore maybe he wore

1264
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:05,720
Speaker 1: high heeled shoes or lifts or something like that to

1265
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:07,640
Speaker 1: make himself appear to be taller than he was. So

1266
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:10,439
Speaker 1: maybe he put on you know, maybe he did things

1267
01:11:10,439 --> 01:11:13,000
Speaker 1: to sort of change his appearance just to met to

1268
01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 1: his voice and everything, and that I would be reported

1269
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:17,160
Speaker 1: the police, and then when they're looking for a suspect,

1270
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:21,280
Speaker 1: he would be if it happens, you know, shorter, lighter,

1271
01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:26,200
Speaker 1: lighter skinned, whatever, you know, lighter voiced, deeper voiced, whatever.

1272
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:28,479
Speaker 1: So you know, maybe that's why he left him alive,

1273
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:30,080
Speaker 1: or maybe he just left him alive because it really

1274
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:33,439
Speaker 1: wasn't necessary to kill them. But the second people, let's say,

1275
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:36,439
Speaker 1: let's say his his grievance was against Richard Griffin twenty

1276
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:40,000
Speaker 1: nine and his girlfriend, Paully and More seventeen. Polly and

1277
01:11:40,120 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 1: More probably wasn't old enough to really made any serious enemies,

1278
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:45,800
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm guessing this killer was probably in

1279
01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:49,720
Speaker 1: his twenties, maybe you know, even thirties. So I'm guessing

1280
01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:51,720
Speaker 1: if I were the police, I would be looking for

1281
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:54,960
Speaker 1: a connection to Richard Griffin, because after he kills these two,

1282
01:11:55,280 --> 01:11:58,439
Speaker 1: then he kills uh, Paul Martin and Betty Joe Booker.

1283
01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:01,200
Speaker 1: But again, you know, once you once you killed, once

1284
01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:02,880
Speaker 1: you killed your intended target, you've got to kill at

1285
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:05,680
Speaker 1: least a couple more people to cover up your to

1286
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:09,560
Speaker 1: cover up the trail leading to your your motive for

1287
01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:14,080
Speaker 1: killing Richard Griffin. And then after that you might decide, well,

1288
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:16,880
Speaker 1: I might I might have killed just a couple more people,

1289
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:19,960
Speaker 1: or maybe somebody else just decided to step in, because

1290
01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:22,920
Speaker 1: the circumstances were so much different for the Starks than

1291
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:25,840
Speaker 1: they were for the other for well, basically for the

1292
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:28,919
Speaker 1: other two, when the stars could have been a copycast exactly,

1293
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:30,880
Speaker 1: somebody who's like, well, I'm going to jump on the

1294
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:34,799
Speaker 1: coattails of this and use it to my advantage. Well, exactly,

1295
01:12:34,880 --> 01:12:37,120
Speaker 1: so you gotta grieves against one or the other both

1296
01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 1: of them. So I'm gonna go ahead and commit a

1297
01:12:39,200 --> 01:12:41,000
Speaker 1: little murder. I know that they'll just assume it's this

1298
01:12:41,080 --> 01:12:43,519
Speaker 1: other guy, and so yeah, and so that that's always

1299
01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:48,400
Speaker 1: a possibility, because it's so much different. So Joe helped

1300
01:12:48,400 --> 01:12:51,479
Speaker 1: me in the future. Remember not to upset you, because

1301
01:12:51,479 --> 01:12:56,320
Speaker 1: that was scarily accurate and really well thought out. And

1302
01:12:57,320 --> 01:13:01,240
Speaker 1: I'm a little disturbed, a little frightened. Yeah that you

1303
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:04,160
Speaker 1: just you just wailed that out. Or did you live

1304
01:13:04,160 --> 01:13:06,760
Speaker 1: in Texarkanada? No? I never lived there. I never knew.

1305
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:11,519
Speaker 1: I don't think now this was a little before my time.

1306
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:15,400
Speaker 1: All right, do you have any any other theories? I don't,

1307
01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:17,800
Speaker 1: you know that. That's the thing is, this is such

1308
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:22,479
Speaker 1: a weird story. I don't like it. It's weird, it's creepy,

1309
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 1: it's you know, there are definitely people that you can

1310
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:28,439
Speaker 1: kind of think, Okay, on the one hand, it could

1311
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:31,080
Speaker 1: be this person, but there's all this evidence against that

1312
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:35,800
Speaker 1: actually being this person, And I just don't know. It's weird.

1313
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:37,960
Speaker 1: There's there was a lot of deaths in a pretty

1314
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:40,800
Speaker 1: small place, you know, a small amount of time, in

1315
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:42,840
Speaker 1: a really small amount of time, which you know, I

1316
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:45,840
Speaker 1: guess leads me to believe that it must have been

1317
01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:49,160
Speaker 1: someone in the community. I think, I deeply think it

1318
01:13:49,280 --> 01:13:50,920
Speaker 1: must have been somebody who lived there, and I feel

1319
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:53,160
Speaker 1: like it must have been someone young, and you know,

1320
01:13:53,280 --> 01:13:56,840
Speaker 1: someone in there, you know, nineteen twenty year old phase,

1321
01:13:56,960 --> 01:14:00,960
Speaker 1: especially because of the youth of the victor, uh you

1322
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:03,040
Speaker 1: know it, it does kind of seem like the sort

1323
01:14:03,040 --> 01:14:04,920
Speaker 1: of thing that like a kid, the kid who gets

1324
01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:09,080
Speaker 1: bullied in school finally breaks down and like murders his

1325
01:14:09,160 --> 01:14:12,360
Speaker 1: worst offenders or you know. And I don't think I

1326
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:14,720
Speaker 1: don't think that it was that because there's there's like

1327
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:18,600
Speaker 1: so much more to it. But you know, because I

1328
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:20,799
Speaker 1: also think that that would have been really easy to spot,

1329
01:14:21,200 --> 01:14:23,240
Speaker 1: right that weird kid. They obviously would have called that

1330
01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:24,760
Speaker 1: weird kid in as questioning. It would have been a

1331
01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:28,400
Speaker 1: really strong um that's why. Yeah, I think if you

1332
01:14:28,400 --> 01:14:30,720
Speaker 1: you know, and that's that's a good possibility. But if

1333
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:33,599
Speaker 1: you're murdering like like several people from your high school

1334
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:37,439
Speaker 1: whose guts you hate, then you know that's probably gonna

1335
01:14:37,439 --> 01:14:39,760
Speaker 1: be pointing sort of a finger back at you. Well, yeah,

1336
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:41,760
Speaker 1: I guess that's why. You know, I kind of think

1337
01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:46,519
Speaker 1: the Duby confessions, the suicide confession makes some sense, although

1338
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:50,599
Speaker 1: it's not to all of them, just some of them.

1339
01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:53,240
Speaker 1: So I don't I don't know what's going on. Yeah,

1340
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:55,400
Speaker 1: I don't know either, but yeah, one of the things

1341
01:14:55,439 --> 01:14:57,559
Speaker 1: about it too is like one of the problems I

1342
01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:00,200
Speaker 1: have with that is like the disparity and a just

1343
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:02,720
Speaker 1: between the people who are who are really young. So

1344
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:05,439
Speaker 1: probably and Moore was seventeen, Betty Joe Burker was fifteen,

1345
01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:08,519
Speaker 1: and Paul Martin was sixteen. So they were from different

1346
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:11,880
Speaker 1: classes in high school. So and Paul Martin, by the way,

1347
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:14,040
Speaker 1: at that time, was not living in Texarkana. He was

1348
01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:18,719
Speaker 1: he was been moved away and was just back for so. Yeah,

1349
01:15:18,960 --> 01:15:21,439
Speaker 1: so whoever this person is, and again it could be

1350
01:15:21,479 --> 01:15:23,400
Speaker 1: just like what I was talking about, but they were

1351
01:15:23,439 --> 01:15:25,400
Speaker 1: there was somebody at high school age. They wanted to

1352
01:15:25,479 --> 01:15:28,479
Speaker 1: kill one of these people and just needed to cover

1353
01:15:28,520 --> 01:15:30,360
Speaker 1: their cover their tracks by killing a bunch of other

1354
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:33,880
Speaker 1: people a lot. That's another possibility. There's a reason it's unsolved, Yeah,

1355
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:36,679
Speaker 1: there is, unfortunately, but I would I would really love

1356
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:37,800
Speaker 1: to talk to you know, if I could go back

1357
01:15:37,800 --> 01:15:39,720
Speaker 1: in time and talk to the investigators and just ask

1358
01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:42,479
Speaker 1: them if they considered that possibility. Well, you know, I

1359
01:15:42,520 --> 01:15:46,280
Speaker 1: do believe that the case files are available. Really I

1360
01:15:46,320 --> 01:15:48,679
Speaker 1: thought they were lost freedom of information in the age

1361
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:50,280
Speaker 1: of the case. You can get a hold of him

1362
01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:54,960
Speaker 1: and I well, some some FBI reports do exist, and

1363
01:15:55,000 --> 01:16:01,000
Speaker 1: I attempt. I found them on some locations. Unfortunately couldn't

1364
01:16:01,040 --> 01:16:05,600
Speaker 1: read them because they were low rez scans of old

1365
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:11,400
Speaker 1: typewritten papers read down well. Plus there was all kinds

1366
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:15,280
Speaker 1: of blackout areas. It was really hard and unfortunately it

1367
01:16:15,320 --> 01:16:18,120
Speaker 1: just was one of those things that had I had,

1368
01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:22,360
Speaker 1: you know, hours and hours and hours more available to me,

1369
01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:24,120
Speaker 1: I could have gone through it. But it just it

1370
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:27,920
Speaker 1: was so much detail. It's just hard to sift. This

1371
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:30,160
Speaker 1: is why people do this for a living. Yeah, I

1372
01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:32,720
Speaker 1: mean I I would never want to go to all

1373
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:34,599
Speaker 1: that stuff because there's got to be like a hundred

1374
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:36,720
Speaker 1: thousand pages of notes from this case when you think

1375
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:40,479
Speaker 1: about all, yeah, there are well, ladies and gentlemen, if

1376
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:44,960
Speaker 1: you have any thoughts or theories or hey, by the way,

1377
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:47,439
Speaker 1: if you are the killer, Hey, yes, you want to

1378
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:50,240
Speaker 1: let us know what those are, you can go ahead

1379
01:16:50,240 --> 01:16:52,960
Speaker 1: and just send us an email. Uh. The email address

1380
01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:57,160
Speaker 1: that we always use is thinking Sideways podcast at gmail

1381
01:16:57,280 --> 01:16:59,880
Speaker 1: dot com. We love to hear from our listeners and

1382
01:17:00,439 --> 01:17:03,439
Speaker 1: we enjoy that a lot. You can always go ahead

1383
01:17:03,479 --> 01:17:05,760
Speaker 1: and find some of our links for this story on

1384
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:10,920
Speaker 1: our website. That website is thinking Sideways podcast dot com.

1385
01:17:11,080 --> 01:17:14,320
Speaker 1: And of course, if you probably are listening to us

1386
01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:16,600
Speaker 1: on iTunes, but if not, you can always listen to

1387
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:21,639
Speaker 1: us on iTunes, on Stitcher, or directly off of our website. Uh.

1388
01:17:21,680 --> 01:17:24,719
Speaker 1: And again, we love to hear from our our fans

1389
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:27,040
Speaker 1: who were talking to us on the page. We get those.

1390
01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:28,880
Speaker 1: We love to go back and forth, so please get

1391
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:31,280
Speaker 1: a hold of us see if you've got thoughts. Uh.

1392
01:17:31,479 --> 01:17:34,960
Speaker 1: That having been said, Happy Halloween, everybody. I hope you

1393
01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:37,640
Speaker 1: enjoyed a creepy story for a creepy day. I help,

1394
01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:40,360
Speaker 1: we scared the crap out of you, and we'll talk

1395
01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:42,800
Speaker 1: to you next week. By everybody, I don't want to

1396
01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:45,840
Speaker 1: drive home now alone. I'll give you a ride. No

1397
01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:46,800
Speaker 1: a second thought now