WEBVTT - From the Archives: Amanda Knox Navigates Labyrinths

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Hear's the Thing

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<v Speaker 1>from iHeart Radio. In two thousand and nine, Amanda Knox

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<v Speaker 1>was sentenced to twenty six years in prison for a

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<v Speaker 1>crime she didn't commit. You probably remember her case. Amanda

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<v Speaker 1>was a foreign exchange student in Perugia, Italy in two

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<v Speaker 1>thousand and seven when her roommate Meredith Kircher was raped

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<v Speaker 1>and murdered. Despite a lack of physical evidence linking her

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<v Speaker 1>to the crime, Knox spent almost a decade of her

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<v Speaker 1>life stuck in the maze of the Italian criminal justice system.

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<v Speaker 1>Amanda Knox is thirty three now and lives in Seattle.

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<v Speaker 1>Last year, she and her husband launched a podcast called Labyrinths.

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<v Speaker 1>In December, they put out a special episode to mark

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<v Speaker 1>the release from prison of Meredith Kircher's actual killer, Rudy Gaday.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you for being here on this labyrinth with me.

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<v Speaker 2>Should he have gotten the life sentence, I don't think so.

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<v Speaker 2>I would not wish an unreasonably harsh sentence on anyone.

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<v Speaker 2>I would wish them only true rehabilitation. Gooday's lawyers say

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<v Speaker 2>he's well along that path. Maybe so, but I do

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<v Speaker 2>know one thing. So long as he refuses to admit

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<v Speaker 2>his crimes to show true regret, I will continue to

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<v Speaker 2>unjustly bear his infamy, be held accountable for the Kircher's grief,

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<v Speaker 2>be shamed for not showing remorse for Gooday's crime. He

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<v Speaker 2>could end all that in a second.

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<v Speaker 1>Amanda Knox knows what it's like to be stuck inside

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<v Speaker 1>someone else's preconception of you.

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<v Speaker 2>So the work that I'm doing now is I'm a podcaster.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a journalist. I very often, especially in my journalism

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<v Speaker 2>and focusing on on criminal justice issues, not just wrongful

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<v Speaker 2>conviction issues, but more broad criminal justice issues. I'm on

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<v Speaker 2>the board of the Frederick Douglass Project, which is working

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<v Speaker 2>to build bridges between the incarcerated population and the non

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<v Speaker 2>incarcerated population. So I'm deeply interested in that divide. But

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<v Speaker 2>my podcast work, and Labyrinths being the podcast that I've

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<v Speaker 2>devoted so much energy and love into this past year,

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<v Speaker 2>is about how people navigate being lost. We just had

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<v Speaker 2>a twelve episode season that concluded on January first with

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<v Speaker 2>an interview with LeVar Burton, which was super fun, and.

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<v Speaker 1>You discussed what with him.

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<v Speaker 2>For example, we talked about his career and how he

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<v Speaker 2>could have done a lot of different things, how he

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<v Speaker 2>was on the path to becoming a Catholic priest except

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<v Speaker 2>that this one thing happened, and then he very well

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<v Speaker 2>could have gone into politics except that this thing happened.

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<v Speaker 2>So we had this really fun and we actually had

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of fun with that episode because Chris and

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<v Speaker 2>I decided to become super nerdy and go sci fi,

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<v Speaker 2>and we created alternate dimensions where like we talked to

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<v Speaker 2>Catholic priest LeVar Burtons and politician LeVar Burton.

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<v Speaker 1>He's so talented.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's a sweetheart. He was so nice. But we

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<v Speaker 2>cover a lot of ground in the in the season,

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<v Speaker 2>and we go from anywhere from like super super dramatic stories,

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<v Speaker 2>like we interviewed Samantha Geimer, who was the fourteen year

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<v Speaker 2>old girl who was raped by Roman Polanski. Yeah, and

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<v Speaker 2>how like interestingly speaking of you know, people using individual

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<v Speaker 2>human beings like worst experiences of their lives as entertainment

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<v Speaker 2>that they're entitled to and as a profit making machine.

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<v Speaker 2>Like that was her story, and she didn't react the

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<v Speaker 2>way or didn't want the things that people expected a

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<v Speaker 2>rape victim to want, and so they vilified her because

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<v Speaker 2>she actually wanted some kind of amicable resolut with Polanski,

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<v Speaker 2>and they themselves found ambicable resolutions behind closed doors, while

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<v Speaker 2>the rest of society was still trying to churn up

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<v Speaker 2>this like victim and villain narrative. What's the name of

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<v Speaker 2>the podcast Labyrinths?

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<v Speaker 1>Labyrinths.

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<v Speaker 2>There's actually a really awesome comic that was drawn and

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<v Speaker 2>came out shortly after I got out of prison, which

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<v Speaker 2>showed me escaping the labyrinth of the Italian criminal justice system,

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<v Speaker 2>and I felt that that was a really beautiful metaphor.

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<v Speaker 2>And what I've found is that not only is my

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<v Speaker 2>own case, you know, it's remarkable and unique in a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of ways, but it's also totally not remarkable and

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<v Speaker 2>unique in the sense that it has all the telltale

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<v Speaker 2>signs of wrongful convictions that happen here in the United States.

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<v Speaker 2>But also like the feeling of going through that experience

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<v Speaker 2>of being lost and feeling like there's this overpowering force

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<v Speaker 2>that's like you can't actually navigate and you're sort of

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<v Speaker 2>like on this journey and you don't know how it's

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<v Speaker 2>going to end. That's an experience that lots of people have.

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<v Speaker 2>I remember going back to school and taking a poetry class,

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<v Speaker 2>and there was a girl in my poetry class who

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<v Speaker 2>was really clicking with my poetry. And I wasn't, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>writing explicitly like I'm Amanda Knox. I was in prison

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<v Speaker 2>for crime I didn't commit. It was more just like

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<v Speaker 2>very emotional. And eventually one day she figured out who

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<v Speaker 2>I was and she said, oh my god, you're Amanda Knox.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was like, oh, no, Like what Google rabbit

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<v Speaker 2>hole has she gone down now? And instead she said, no, No,

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<v Speaker 2>you don't understand. I was gang raped when I was sixteen,

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<v Speaker 2>and the feeling of what you went through feels like

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<v Speaker 2>what I went through when I was gang raped at sixteen.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was like wow. So the fact that like

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<v Speaker 2>I sit in this very weird position where I'm a

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<v Speaker 2>not very usual wrongfully convicted person in what way, Well,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm female, for one thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Who's usually wrongfully convicted.

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<v Speaker 2>People who are usually wrongfully convicted tend to be, especially

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<v Speaker 2>in this country, tend to be young men from impoverished

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<v Speaker 2>backgrounds and young men of color.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's because they can't afford a good defense.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's part of it. There's also a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of biases that go into it. There's a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>sort of hysteria around youth culture, like even just issues

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<v Speaker 2>with like gangs. That's an issue where it's like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of people don't understand that kids just by

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<v Speaker 2>virtue of living in a neighborhood are sort of associated

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<v Speaker 2>with gangs, even if they have never committed a crime.

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<v Speaker 2>And so suddenly you're like in a gang book and

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<v Speaker 2>you're identifiable as a gang member. But that's only because

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<v Speaker 2>you happen to live in that neighborhood, and you happen

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<v Speaker 2>to associate with a number of people who also live

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<v Speaker 2>in that neighborhood. You know, those kinds of things. But

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<v Speaker 2>the major thing is that the criminal justice system is

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<v Speaker 2>a system that was built by men for men, because

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<v Speaker 2>the vast majority of people who are committing crimes are men,

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<v Speaker 2>and for someone like me to be put through the

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<v Speaker 2>criminal justice system as a defendant is highly unusual. I

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<v Speaker 2>come from a middle class background, I come from an

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<v Speaker 2>educated background. I have no history of you know, behavioral

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<v Speaker 2>problems or anything like that. Like I'm usually what I mean, actually,

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<v Speaker 2>usually the victims of crimes also happen to be young

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<v Speaker 2>men of color, but generally when you think of someone

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<v Speaker 2>like me, the media presents someone like me as a

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<v Speaker 2>crime victim, and for me to be in a position

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<v Speaker 2>of being able to both sympathize with what it is

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<v Speaker 2>like to be a young woman who is victimized by

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<v Speaker 2>a man, and to be able to sympathize with the

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<v Speaker 2>experience of young men who are being put through this

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<v Speaker 2>incrediblely unfair criminal justice process, that puts me in a

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<v Speaker 2>unique position to like build bridges, and I kind of

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<v Speaker 2>view my work as bridge building, as like acknowledging the

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<v Speaker 2>complex humanity of people on both sides of the equation

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<v Speaker 2>and being able to bring nuance back into the true

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<v Speaker 2>crime genre, which I tend to feel has been more

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<v Speaker 2>dominated by scandalous, salacious, black and white presentations of stories

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<v Speaker 2>as opposed to more complicated ones. And a lot of times,

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<v Speaker 2>like a lot of people reach out to me thinking

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<v Speaker 2>that I am going to be able to understand their

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<v Speaker 2>humanity in a way that other people just don't or

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<v Speaker 2>refuse to, and so a lot of the stories that

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<v Speaker 2>I end up talking about are just people who've reached

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<v Speaker 2>out to me.

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<v Speaker 1>So you're not somebody who people are coming to you

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<v Speaker 1>and going I need you to fix this for me.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, a lot of people reach out to me

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<v Speaker 2>asking me to fix things for them, But the truth

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<v Speaker 2>of the matter is, I'm not a lawyer, so like

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of the people who would love for me

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<v Speaker 2>to be able to do something about someone's case, like

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<v Speaker 2>I usually end up being the person who like directs

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<v Speaker 2>them towards the innocence project that is closest to their location.

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<v Speaker 2>What I end up doing is I try to give

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<v Speaker 2>a voice to the people who have felt like their

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<v Speaker 2>voice has been stolen from them. And once again, it

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<v Speaker 2>isn't necessarily someone who's been wrongfully convicted.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you come out of this experience when you finally

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<v Speaker 1>were free, did you come out of this with some

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<v Speaker 1>divine ability to tell who's telling the truth and who isn't.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I don't think anyone has that ability. No, they don't,

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely not. I think that what it gave me was

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<v Speaker 2>a perspective that I wouldn't have had otherwise, but also

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<v Speaker 2>a sensitivity to when I view people as being scapegoated,

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<v Speaker 2>whether they did something or not. I am very sensitive

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<v Speaker 2>to when people become ideas of people and not actual people,

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<v Speaker 2>and I can see that happening on a day to

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<v Speaker 2>day basis.

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<v Speaker 1>What was the most consistent idea that you represented the people.

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<v Speaker 2>That Foxynoxy was a drug adult, sexually promiscuous young woman

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<v Speaker 2>who manipulates men to do her bidding, Like there's this

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<v Speaker 2>idea of I think there was also this sense of

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<v Speaker 2>like female jealousy that was imbued in me. So basically

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<v Speaker 2>everything that is stereotypically bad about being a woman was

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<v Speaker 2>sort of put on me. I was made to be

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<v Speaker 2>this like jealous, sexually promiscuous, manipulative, druggy woman, and I

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<v Speaker 2>came to embody that in the minds of people. And

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<v Speaker 2>on the other hand, I also was, you know, portrayed

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<v Speaker 2>as this like saint like damsel in distress, and even

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<v Speaker 2>in the courtroom, people were, you know, presenting me as like,

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<v Speaker 2>on the one hand, she has the face of an angel,

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<v Speaker 2>on the other hand, she's really like the devil. And

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<v Speaker 2>it was like, how about I'm neither. I'm just a

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<v Speaker 2>young person who, like my roommate was murdered and I

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<v Speaker 2>had no idea what was going on. And everyone was

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<v Speaker 2>speaking an Italian really fast, and I had no idea

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<v Speaker 2>what was going on, and I got scared and here

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<v Speaker 2>I am so how.

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<v Speaker 1>Much time did you spend in the Italian prison.

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<v Speaker 2>Total four years. My god, So from age twenty to

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<v Speaker 2>twenty four, I spent in a foreign prison.

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<v Speaker 1>And everybody in there with you was Italian.

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<v Speaker 2>Actually, the vast majority of the people who were in

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<v Speaker 2>there were either Nigerian or Roma.

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<v Speaker 1>Interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, there were plenty of Italians in there, and

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of them were very, very poor Italian people

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<v Speaker 2>who had ties to the drug trade and stuff like that.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot and a lot of people in for drug offenses,

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<v Speaker 2>whether they were drug mules or drug dealers.

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<v Speaker 1>Amanda Knox, if you like crime drama where the defendant

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<v Speaker 1>is falsely accused, that listened to my conversation with filmmaker

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<v Speaker 1>Joe Berlinger. Berlinger directed the Paradise Lost series of documentaries

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<v Speaker 1>about the trial of the West Memphis three.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, here you have allegedly a crime by three

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<v Speaker 3>teens who are not professional killers, who brought, according to

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<v Speaker 3>the prosecutor, three little boys out into the woods and

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<v Speaker 3>slaughtered them to death in this savage beating, and yet

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<v Speaker 3>there was no blood found at the crime scene. And

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<v Speaker 3>then you look at the confession, and the confession is

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<v Speaker 3>riddled with inconsistencies and problems coaching and coaching, so within

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<v Speaker 3>months we knew that something was amiss.

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<v Speaker 1>Hear more of my conversation with Joe Berlinger at Here's

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<v Speaker 1>the Thing dot org. After the Break, Amanda Knox describes

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<v Speaker 1>the toll that her long wait for justice had on

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<v Speaker 1>her family. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's

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<v Speaker 1>the Thing. After her release from prison, Amanda Knox wrote

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<v Speaker 1>a memoir titled Waiting to be Heard. A few years later,

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<v Speaker 1>Netflix released a documentary called Simply Amanda Knox. However, she's

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<v Speaker 1>resisted offers to participate in a feature film based on

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<v Speaker 1>her experience.

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<v Speaker 2>I actually very much pushed back against that. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>there's kind of a film that's sort of a narrative

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<v Speaker 2>version of it. It's not worth watching. It's really bad.

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<v Speaker 2>I Mean, what I thought that the documentary did that

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<v Speaker 2>a film couldn't do was it allowed everyone to sort

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<v Speaker 2>of present their own thoughts in perspective about what happened.

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<v Speaker 2>And it didn't claim to be Like, it didn't have

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<v Speaker 2>a scene where I either kill or don't kill Meredith

0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:59.520
<v Speaker 2>Kircher right, Like the problem with having a film be

0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:01.920
<v Speaker 2>about it is you're making some sort of you're taking

0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:05.360
<v Speaker 2>some stance about reality that is built up of a

0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:10.840
<v Speaker 2>lot of claims of reality, but not necessarily reality. And

0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:14.840
<v Speaker 2>in a situation where so much judgment is attached to that,

0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:19.960
<v Speaker 2>I found that that was inevitably going to be flawed.

0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:26.800
<v Speaker 2>Whereas a documentary that genuinely allows everyone to portray what

0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:30.240
<v Speaker 2>they experienced and what they think about what they.

0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:31.920
<v Speaker 1>Experienced and the facts as they know.

0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:34.320
<v Speaker 2>And the facts as they know them is going to

0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:38.280
<v Speaker 2>be closer to the truth and also is going to

0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:41.600
<v Speaker 2>present the crux of this issue, which is that people

0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:45.160
<v Speaker 2>are making claims about reality that they can't actually you know,

0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:50.120
<v Speaker 2>like sustain with evidence, what do we actually know? I

0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:53.520
<v Speaker 2>want to preserve this sense of like, well, you know,

0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.960
<v Speaker 2>the person who actually committed this crime, Rudy Gadet, who

0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:00.360
<v Speaker 2>no one ever talks about, is not someone and who's

0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:04.520
<v Speaker 2>forthcoming with what actually happened. We have the evidence of

0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.600
<v Speaker 2>him at the crime scene, of him interacting with Meredith's

0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.200
<v Speaker 2>body and leaving his fingerprints and footprints in her blood.

0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:14.120
<v Speaker 2>We know that. Do we have a camera on the

0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:17.000
<v Speaker 2>wall where we see him doing it or we're in

0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:18.040
<v Speaker 2>his mind? No?

0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:22.160
<v Speaker 1>No, he confesses right, And imagine for you you want

0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:24.440
<v Speaker 1>to avoid that where they're going to leave it gray

0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.520
<v Speaker 1>whether you really killed this girl or not. You know,

0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:28.840
<v Speaker 1>a feature film is always.

0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:32.000
<v Speaker 2>Going to be like, well, you know, yeah.

0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:32.320
<v Speaker 1>That's a fear I would have.

0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. That's the unfortunate thing about true crime in general

0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:40.680
<v Speaker 2>is there is this sort of temptation to treat it

0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:44.880
<v Speaker 2>fundamentally as an entertainment product. And due to that, like

0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:47.600
<v Speaker 2>the thing that is most entertaining is when people can

0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:50.400
<v Speaker 2>walk away from the movie and just argue about it.

0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:53.240
<v Speaker 2>You know, like, if I feel this way about the case,

0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.400
<v Speaker 2>you feel that boy about the case, and you know,

0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:58.920
<v Speaker 2>now we can argue about it because it's unclear. And

0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:02.880
<v Speaker 2>I think one of my big frustrations with my own

0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:07.000
<v Speaker 2>case was that the prosecution, first of all, but also

0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:11.480
<v Speaker 2>just people in general, always wanted to have this attitude of, well,

0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:15.160
<v Speaker 2>the defense says this, and the prosecution says that, and

0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:17.920
<v Speaker 2>so you know, there must be some sort of truth

0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:22.320
<v Speaker 2>in between. Amanda must be guilty of something. We're not

0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:24.840
<v Speaker 2>quite sure what it is, but she must be guilty

0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:28.280
<v Speaker 2>of something. And that's actually like one of the major

0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:32.040
<v Speaker 2>reasons why I was retried and reconvicted. I don't know

0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:35.040
<v Speaker 2>if you knew that, or maybe you've followed that in

0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:38.360
<v Speaker 2>the documentary. But like in Italy, the double jeopardy laws

0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:41.760
<v Speaker 2>aren't the same, and so when the sort of whole

0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.880
<v Speaker 2>forensic case against me came crashing down after my acquittal,

0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:51.360
<v Speaker 2>I was retried again but on behavioral evidence. So basically

0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.480
<v Speaker 2>the prosecution said, sure, we can't actually place her at

0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:57.200
<v Speaker 2>the crime scene, but she just didn't act like I

0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:02.000
<v Speaker 2>was just something like, we can't be totally wrong, so

0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:05.280
<v Speaker 2>like something's got to be there. And I was reconvicted

0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.000
<v Speaker 2>on that, like just on that sort of sense that

0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:09.720
<v Speaker 2>there must be something there.

0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:11.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we don't have the evidence yet, but we're going

0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:12.840
<v Speaker 1>to find it. Trust me.

0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:15.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like there's some you know, I just got a

0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:18.199
<v Speaker 2>vibe and they bought that. And it wasn't until the

0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:22.320
<v Speaker 2>Supreme Court. I was on trial for eight years, and

0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:24.679
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't until the court swooped in and was like,

0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.320
<v Speaker 2>where's the evidence. There's literally no evidence.

0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:30.480
<v Speaker 1>Explain to people who don't know what are the extradition

0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:32.880
<v Speaker 1>arrangements between Italy and the United States. Did they try

0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:34.520
<v Speaker 1>to have you extra died it? Because when you were

0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:37.160
<v Speaker 1>convicted again, you didn't go back right.

0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.280
<v Speaker 2>So the way that it worked was that there is

0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:43.880
<v Speaker 2>an extradition treaty between the United States and Italy, And

0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:46.760
<v Speaker 2>so while I was on trial there, I was in prison,

0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:49.960
<v Speaker 2>and then I was acquitted and I was allowed to

0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:53.520
<v Speaker 2>go home, but I was still on trial, like they

0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:57.240
<v Speaker 2>still pursued a case against me, and I was retried

0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.639
<v Speaker 2>in absentia, so they had a whole trial without me

0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:03.040
<v Speaker 2>in Italy while I was here living in the United States.

0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.800
<v Speaker 2>And while that was going on, I was meeting with

0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:10.720
<v Speaker 2>lawyers here to see, depending on the outcome of this

0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.320
<v Speaker 2>new trial, do I want to make a case to

0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:17.600
<v Speaker 2>at least potentially serve my sentence here in the United

0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.040
<v Speaker 2>States so it's less of a burden on my family.

0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.639
<v Speaker 2>So here I am like trying to go to college

0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:27.200
<v Speaker 2>and go to school, but also making plans to potentially

0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.560
<v Speaker 2>turn myself into the cops in case there's a bad

0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:35.439
<v Speaker 2>outcome in this case, which there was, and I'm trying

0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:37.560
<v Speaker 2>to like plan to how am I going to fight

0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:40.439
<v Speaker 2>my case in court here in the US, to just

0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:42.479
<v Speaker 2>see if I can try to serve a sentence here

0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:44.680
<v Speaker 2>in the US as opposed to being trucked all the

0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:48.320
<v Speaker 2>way back to Italy. Like that was my twenties that.

0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:50.240
<v Speaker 1>Doesn't exist to you can't serve your time in the

0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:52.000
<v Speaker 1>US for a crime in Italy, can you.

0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:56.159
<v Speaker 2>Well, the US has discretion over whether or not it

0:18:56.359 --> 0:19:01.400
<v Speaker 2>actually will fulfill that extradition treaty. It can always say,

0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.439
<v Speaker 2>you know what, I don't really care to extradite her.

0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:06.800
<v Speaker 2>She's going to stay here in the US. But because

0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:09.800
<v Speaker 2>we want to appease the Italian justice system, we're going

0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:12.520
<v Speaker 2>to hold her here in the US. She'll serve her sentence.

0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:15.560
<v Speaker 1>Really, I didn't know that. I went through a divorce

0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:21.040
<v Speaker 1>in California what's been re christened the Parents' Rights movement.

0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:23.919
<v Speaker 1>It was the father's rights movement. Women were favored so

0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:28.120
<v Speaker 1>clearly in courts about custody and so forth. And that's

0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:32.080
<v Speaker 1>slowly changing. But in an analysis that different organizations I

0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:35.200
<v Speaker 1>worked with did, California was ranked at the bottom of

0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:38.399
<v Speaker 1>men's rights. I mean, it was a really, really, really

0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:43.359
<v Speaker 1>because and that breaks down to basically two the haves

0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:45.959
<v Speaker 1>and the have nots. I was in court, and if

0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:47.800
<v Speaker 1>the guy that walks in the room is a gardener

0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:51.000
<v Speaker 1>and he's getting divorced from his wife, the divorce proceedings

0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:54.800
<v Speaker 1>are over in fifteen or twenty minutes. There's no money

0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:58.440
<v Speaker 1>for lawyers to mine and pump out of that situation.

0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:03.520
<v Speaker 1>If a famous whatever, actor, writer, musician, it doesn't matter

0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:07.480
<v Speaker 1>government official. If somebody prominent who was presumed to have

0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:10.320
<v Speaker 1>the resources comes into court, it's like this is a

0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:13.520
<v Speaker 1>big business. So they say to you, Alec Baldwin, your

0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:15.960
<v Speaker 1>daughter who back then she was five years old, she's

0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:18.600
<v Speaker 1>on the other side of this six foot concrete wall.

0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:22.320
<v Speaker 1>Here's a paper clip, start digging, and you're going to

0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.600
<v Speaker 1>start digging because if you're a normal human being who

0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:27.919
<v Speaker 1>has a child, you want to be with that child,

0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:30.040
<v Speaker 1>you want to parent that child. I know many people

0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:33.000
<v Speaker 1>drop out and they give up and they write it

0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:35.040
<v Speaker 1>off and go, I'm going to go start another family

0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:38.119
<v Speaker 1>because they're so abused by that system. And so abused

0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:41.679
<v Speaker 1>was I by that that I wrote a book. So

0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:45.920
<v Speaker 1>I wasn't wrongfully convicted of murder in an Italian courtroom.

0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.480
<v Speaker 1>But I was somebody who did everything they asked me

0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:53.199
<v Speaker 1>to do, and they just kept punishing me because they

0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:56.159
<v Speaker 1>knew I was going to keep coming. I'm wondering in

0:20:56.200 --> 0:21:00.080
<v Speaker 1>your case, was they're just this driving need for you

0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.760
<v Speaker 1>to share with other people what I went through and

0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:05.919
<v Speaker 1>the lessons of that and how you can avoid what

0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:07.639
<v Speaker 1>I went through. Was there some of that?

0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:09.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, first of all, I just want to say that

0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:14.479
<v Speaker 2>I'm really sorry that you went through that. And I

0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:16.560
<v Speaker 2>was going to point out, like, you know exactly what

0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:19.080
<v Speaker 2>it's like to be made to be the center of

0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:22.080
<v Speaker 2>a morality play that people feel like they can just

0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:25.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, keep taking and like profiting from and profiting

0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:29.359
<v Speaker 2>from and profiting from. And I'm sure the tabloids have

0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:32.840
<v Speaker 2>their cut of the pie too, Like I get it,

0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:35.879
<v Speaker 2>Like it's easy to be made the villain of a story,

0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:39.879
<v Speaker 2>especially when you're on trial, especially when you're accused. Yeah,

0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:42.840
<v Speaker 2>like all of the sort of prejudices and stereotypes that

0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:46.400
<v Speaker 2>we associate with people, but we don't say in polite company.

0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:49.560
<v Speaker 2>As soon as you're accused of something and you're in court,

0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:53.600
<v Speaker 2>like everyone feels comfortable bringing those stereotypes and prejudices to

0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:57.159
<v Speaker 2>the table, Like it's no, it's always now we're allowed

0:21:57.200 --> 0:21:58.520
<v Speaker 2>to say she's a.

0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:04.119
<v Speaker 1>Whore right now? When you went to prison, what was

0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:05.000
<v Speaker 1>the sentence.

0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:07.080
<v Speaker 2>The first time I was convicted, I was sentenced to

0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:11.520
<v Speaker 2>twenty six years, And when I was reconvicted and resentenced,

0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:14.600
<v Speaker 2>I was sentenced to twenty eight and a half years.

0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:18.879
<v Speaker 2>But to your point previously, I think that especially when

0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:21.560
<v Speaker 2>we're talking about someone like you being in court for

0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:25.840
<v Speaker 2>not you know, a murder, right, like, this is a

0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:29.280
<v Speaker 2>situation where it's and I think it points to the

0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:33.080
<v Speaker 2>fact that, like, this issue is not just about wrongful convictions.

0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:37.200
<v Speaker 2>It's broader than that. It's about judgment. It's about mob

0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:41.920
<v Speaker 2>mentality and mob profit off of an individual human being,

0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:46.800
<v Speaker 2>and it's about the dehumanization of individual human beings for profit.

0:22:47.359 --> 0:22:51.400
<v Speaker 2>That is something that has repercussions, not just in wrongful

0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:55.439
<v Speaker 2>convictions cases where like the stakes are highest because you know,

0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:57.080
<v Speaker 2>the prosecutor ultimate.

0:22:56.760 --> 0:22:59.760
<v Speaker 1>Cancel culture, right, the ultimate cancelation. Yes, you're going to

0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:02.600
<v Speaker 1>go to prison for twenty eight and a half years.

0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:04.480
<v Speaker 2>For a crime you did not commit.

0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:11.080
<v Speaker 1>Amanda Knox. If you're enjoying this conversation, don't keep it

0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:14.600
<v Speaker 1>to yourself. Tell the world and be sure to subscribe

0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:19.200
<v Speaker 1>to Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts

0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:24.200
<v Speaker 1>or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back,

0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:27.959
<v Speaker 1>Amanda talks about returning to Italy for the first time

0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:38.720
<v Speaker 1>since her release. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to

0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:43.320
<v Speaker 1>Here's the Thing When Amanda Knox was released after four

0:23:43.400 --> 0:23:47.480
<v Speaker 1>years in prison, she returned to Seattle. It took time

0:23:47.520 --> 0:23:51.280
<v Speaker 1>for her to rebuild her life. Last year, on February

0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:54.480
<v Speaker 1>twenty ninth, she married writer Christopher Robinson.

0:23:55.080 --> 0:23:58.480
<v Speaker 2>He's a novelist, he has two master's degrees in poetry.

0:23:58.720 --> 0:24:01.600
<v Speaker 2>He's but you know, he's my partner.

0:24:02.880 --> 0:24:03.880
<v Speaker 1>DNA expert.

0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:05.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah no, no, no, not at all.

0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:06.919
<v Speaker 1>In fact, nothing to do with that.

0:24:07.280 --> 0:24:11.080
<v Speaker 2>No, if anything, I've sort of like dragged him into

0:24:11.119 --> 0:24:14.080
<v Speaker 2>this world and that he you know, didn't really have

0:24:14.520 --> 0:24:16.280
<v Speaker 2>that much of a perspective on He was just like

0:24:16.280 --> 0:24:19.680
<v Speaker 2>a philosophy poetry guy. But we have a really great

0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:23.280
<v Speaker 2>dynamic because of that, because you know, he can bring

0:24:23.320 --> 0:24:27.960
<v Speaker 2>his sort of analytical self. I bring my emotional, experiential self,

0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:30.920
<v Speaker 2>and then we put that together into what we hope

0:24:31.640 --> 0:24:35.439
<v Speaker 2>is a really complex, nuanced, heartfelt, you know journey that

0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:39.520
<v Speaker 2>we put people on to your experience with paparazzi is

0:24:39.560 --> 0:24:41.880
<v Speaker 2>something that you know, one of the things that people

0:24:41.920 --> 0:24:44.440
<v Speaker 2>would tell me when I came home was they would

0:24:44.480 --> 0:24:46.600
<v Speaker 2>say things like, I feel really bad for you because

0:24:46.600 --> 0:24:48.679
<v Speaker 2>it's not like you're a celebrity. It's not like you

0:24:48.880 --> 0:24:53.920
<v Speaker 2>asked for it. You just get you know, people chasing

0:24:53.960 --> 0:24:55.760
<v Speaker 2>you down the street. Do they do that to you

0:24:55.840 --> 0:24:59.000
<v Speaker 2>now today? No? But when I first came home, and

0:24:59.040 --> 0:25:02.400
<v Speaker 2>for many many minu months afterwards, and actually the entire time,

0:25:02.440 --> 0:25:04.680
<v Speaker 2>I was still on trial, so like I was still

0:25:04.680 --> 0:25:07.040
<v Speaker 2>in I was in freedom for four years, but still

0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:10.120
<v Speaker 2>on trial. Like any time something happened with the case,

0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:12.479
<v Speaker 2>there would be people outside of my apartment building.

0:25:12.560 --> 0:25:13.840
<v Speaker 1>But that's subsided now.

0:25:14.160 --> 0:25:17.480
<v Speaker 2>Yes, it's all finished. Now the Supreme Court in Italy

0:25:17.920 --> 0:25:22.199
<v Speaker 2>definitively acquitted me in twenty fifteen. So it's over. Like

0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:25.000
<v Speaker 2>it's over in the sense that I was definitively acquitted.

0:25:25.600 --> 0:25:28.159
<v Speaker 2>It's not over in the sense that, like my entire

0:25:28.280 --> 0:25:32.159
<v Speaker 2>life and identity is now associated with a crime that

0:25:32.200 --> 0:25:35.600
<v Speaker 2>I didn't commit, that is still an ongoing reality.

0:25:35.880 --> 0:25:38.760
<v Speaker 1>Do you feel that way? Do you go places and

0:25:38.880 --> 0:25:41.640
<v Speaker 1>do you? I mean not now? Maybe it's died down

0:25:41.800 --> 0:25:44.520
<v Speaker 1>and where you live is it's home, and maybe you

0:25:44.640 --> 0:25:47.159
<v Speaker 1>fitted and people are much more, you know, kind of

0:25:47.359 --> 0:25:49.880
<v Speaker 1>polite toward you if you will. But I mean, I'll

0:25:49.960 --> 0:25:52.520
<v Speaker 1>walk into restaurants you just see that look in people's eyes.

0:25:52.560 --> 0:25:55.399
<v Speaker 1>Someone's eating with a crowd of people. They smack the

0:25:55.440 --> 0:25:58.200
<v Speaker 1>person next to them. They look at you, they look

0:25:58.200 --> 0:26:00.320
<v Speaker 1>at them, they talk, everyone huddles up, they lie, and

0:26:00.359 --> 0:26:02.280
<v Speaker 1>then all of them look at you at the same time.

0:26:02.400 --> 0:26:04.960
<v Speaker 1>Five heads go slap. Then they will come back into

0:26:05.000 --> 0:26:09.240
<v Speaker 1>the home and start laughing. And you are this fodder

0:26:09.359 --> 0:26:11.720
<v Speaker 1>for them in this kind of gossipy, tabloidy way.

0:26:12.080 --> 0:26:14.439
<v Speaker 2>Well again, you're an idea of a person, right like

0:26:14.520 --> 0:26:17.359
<v Speaker 2>they've had you as an idea of a person in

0:26:17.400 --> 0:26:19.679
<v Speaker 2>their mind this whole time. And the way that I

0:26:19.840 --> 0:26:22.800
<v Speaker 2>feel when I'm moving through the world is that I

0:26:22.920 --> 0:26:26.160
<v Speaker 2>have this sort of doppelgang or version of me that

0:26:26.359 --> 0:26:29.800
<v Speaker 2>sort of stands in front of me, and everywhere I go,

0:26:30.080 --> 0:26:33.879
<v Speaker 2>I see people seeing her, and I have no idea

0:26:33.920 --> 0:26:36.639
<v Speaker 2>what they're actually seeing because what the vision of me

0:26:36.760 --> 0:26:41.439
<v Speaker 2>that they're actually seeing was constructed out of probably just

0:26:41.480 --> 0:26:44.199
<v Speaker 2>a lot of media, but what media and who? And like,

0:26:44.800 --> 0:26:47.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, what are the things that they are projecting

0:26:47.560 --> 0:26:52.560
<v Speaker 2>onto the name and face Amanda Knox or Foxy Noxy.

0:26:52.920 --> 0:26:55.720
<v Speaker 2>You know, there's a sense of sort of entitlement because

0:26:56.400 --> 0:26:59.320
<v Speaker 2>we are not, like I don't think our brains are

0:26:59.400 --> 0:27:04.960
<v Speaker 2>even really well adapted to understand that a human being

0:27:05.000 --> 0:27:09.320
<v Speaker 2>that we've seen but never encountered is a real human being.

0:27:09.760 --> 0:27:11.920
<v Speaker 2>Like back in you know, hunter gatherer days, if you

0:27:12.040 --> 0:27:15.560
<v Speaker 2>ever heard of a human being who you had never

0:27:15.640 --> 0:27:18.880
<v Speaker 2>actually met before in your real life, they were a god.

0:27:19.400 --> 0:27:22.200
<v Speaker 2>Like that's that's the only person that you would ever

0:27:22.240 --> 0:27:24.560
<v Speaker 2>have heard of that you've never encountered on day to

0:27:24.600 --> 0:27:27.439
<v Speaker 2>day life. And the king would be a god. And

0:27:27.480 --> 0:27:30.600
<v Speaker 2>so this like idea of a person is actually something

0:27:30.680 --> 0:27:36.040
<v Speaker 2>that is very difficult for people to like genuinely understand.

0:27:36.040 --> 0:27:38.440
<v Speaker 2>So I don't know if that's you know, something that

0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:41.760
<v Speaker 2>can help you process or you know, console yourself or

0:27:41.800 --> 0:27:45.280
<v Speaker 2>find peace. Is like we actually, generally our brains are

0:27:45.320 --> 0:27:48.800
<v Speaker 2>really really bad at understanding that a human being that

0:27:48.840 --> 0:27:52.240
<v Speaker 2>we've heard of but never encountered before is a human

0:27:52.320 --> 0:27:53.440
<v Speaker 2>being like I am.

0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:57.199
<v Speaker 1>I always tell people the worst thing in life is

0:27:57.240 --> 0:28:00.000
<v Speaker 1>to be misunderstood, Like also there and say, kind of

0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:02.200
<v Speaker 1>only people really knew who I was. I just don't

0:28:02.200 --> 0:28:04.680
<v Speaker 1>feel to think people you know what we do, and

0:28:04.760 --> 0:28:07.840
<v Speaker 1>you know my wife and I what we do philanthropically

0:28:07.920 --> 0:28:09.840
<v Speaker 1>and all those silly things that you wind up having

0:28:09.920 --> 0:28:12.960
<v Speaker 1>to resist the desire to point your finger that underline that.

0:28:13.080 --> 0:28:15.359
<v Speaker 1>But I do this. And here's another thing, you.

0:28:15.359 --> 0:28:18.959
<v Speaker 2>Know, I'm a human being. Look, there are multiple sides

0:28:19.000 --> 0:28:19.159
<v Speaker 2>of me.

0:28:19.400 --> 0:28:22.840
<v Speaker 1>But that's the trap that you lunge in that way

0:28:22.880 --> 0:28:26.720
<v Speaker 1>and you start to advertise, and you start to respond

0:28:26.760 --> 0:28:28.640
<v Speaker 1>and say to people, well, I'm really this great guy,

0:28:28.680 --> 0:28:30.560
<v Speaker 1>and you don't get me, you get deeper in the

0:28:30.640 --> 0:28:33.840
<v Speaker 1>quicksand unfortunately when you do that. But my point is

0:28:33.840 --> 0:28:37.800
<v Speaker 1>is that in your case, you're wrongfully convicted. But there

0:28:37.800 --> 0:28:42.400
<v Speaker 1>are people who do these crimes. Someone killed Meredith Kercher.

0:28:42.680 --> 0:28:47.120
<v Speaker 2>His name is Rudy Gaday. He was actually recently released

0:28:47.120 --> 0:28:47.680
<v Speaker 2>from prison.

0:28:48.000 --> 0:28:51.520
<v Speaker 1>He was I mean, without getting into any ugly details,

0:28:51.560 --> 0:28:55.080
<v Speaker 1>can you share with us just one moment of when

0:28:55.120 --> 0:28:57.360
<v Speaker 1>you really, really when you were in prison and you

0:28:57.440 --> 0:29:00.520
<v Speaker 1>just hit rock bottom and you thought, what the am

0:29:00.560 --> 0:29:03.440
<v Speaker 1>I going to do? What was that feeling like for

0:29:03.480 --> 0:29:06.280
<v Speaker 1>you as a person who didn't belong there.

0:29:07.000 --> 0:29:10.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there are a number of moments that come to mind. Unfortunately,

0:29:11.680 --> 0:29:14.520
<v Speaker 2>So first of all, I should describe what was the

0:29:14.560 --> 0:29:19.280
<v Speaker 2>default setting. The default setting for me in prison was

0:29:19.440 --> 0:29:22.080
<v Speaker 2>I had like I had been the sort of like cheerful,

0:29:22.240 --> 0:29:25.560
<v Speaker 2>just like having a good life kind of person, and

0:29:25.800 --> 0:29:32.520
<v Speaker 2>my new emotional default setting was reset to sad. Oh,

0:29:32.640 --> 0:29:35.800
<v Speaker 2>so I woke up sad. I lived through the day sad.

0:29:35.960 --> 0:29:38.440
<v Speaker 2>I went to bed sad, and that was just like

0:29:38.640 --> 0:29:40.640
<v Speaker 2>my new emotional default setting.

0:29:40.720 --> 0:29:41.480
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god.

0:29:41.640 --> 0:29:44.520
<v Speaker 2>And I just sort of like lived that and I

0:29:44.560 --> 0:29:48.080
<v Speaker 2>became numb to it, even like I was just sad

0:29:48.160 --> 0:29:49.440
<v Speaker 2>and that was just normal.

0:29:49.560 --> 0:29:50.720
<v Speaker 1>What an amazing answer.

0:29:50.960 --> 0:29:53.560
<v Speaker 2>But on top of that, like there were moments where,

0:29:54.120 --> 0:29:57.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, depending on the various places that we were

0:29:57.400 --> 0:29:59.960
<v Speaker 2>in the case, Like very shortly after I was convicted,

0:30:00.240 --> 0:30:03.320
<v Speaker 2>two years into my imprisonment, because it took that long

0:30:03.360 --> 0:30:06.760
<v Speaker 2>for the trial to go do its whole thing, my

0:30:06.840 --> 0:30:11.680
<v Speaker 2>dad came in to visitation and he had just had

0:30:11.800 --> 0:30:15.440
<v Speaker 2>like a conversation with the lawyers about potentially how long

0:30:15.480 --> 0:30:17.959
<v Speaker 2>it was going to take for the appeals process, and

0:30:18.600 --> 0:30:21.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, he had to share with me, you know,

0:30:21.320 --> 0:30:24.160
<v Speaker 2>maybe it's going to be, you know, another several years.

0:30:24.160 --> 0:30:26.040
<v Speaker 2>It could be five years, it could be ten years.

0:30:26.080 --> 0:30:33.280
<v Speaker 2>We're not quite sure. And I at that moment, you know,

0:30:33.520 --> 0:30:36.960
<v Speaker 2>during my visitations, I would very very I tried very

0:30:37.040 --> 0:30:39.400
<v Speaker 2>very hard to be cheerful and to like have just

0:30:39.440 --> 0:30:41.960
<v Speaker 2>like this positive moment with my family members because those

0:30:41.960 --> 0:30:43.200
<v Speaker 2>moments were precious, right.

0:30:43.280 --> 0:30:46.200
<v Speaker 1>I didn't want to upset my dad. I'm here, wrongfully

0:30:46.240 --> 0:30:49.680
<v Speaker 1>convicted of murder, facing a twenty six year sentence in

0:30:49.720 --> 0:30:52.280
<v Speaker 1>an Italian prison. But you know, I really really don't

0:30:52.320 --> 0:30:53.200
<v Speaker 1>want to upset dad.

0:30:53.520 --> 0:30:55.520
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to upset Dad because it's like we

0:30:55.560 --> 0:30:58.280
<v Speaker 2>only have some We only have six hours a month

0:30:58.320 --> 0:31:00.760
<v Speaker 2>that we get to see each other. So like, this

0:31:00.840 --> 0:31:04.080
<v Speaker 2>is my one hour with my dad, and I just

0:31:04.240 --> 0:31:08.840
<v Speaker 2>couldn't hold it together and I started sobbing. And then

0:31:08.880 --> 0:31:10.680
<v Speaker 2>I did the thing that is like the worst thing

0:31:10.720 --> 0:31:13.400
<v Speaker 2>that I did in prison, which is that I begged

0:31:13.440 --> 0:31:16.440
<v Speaker 2>my dad to save me, even though I knew that

0:31:16.520 --> 0:31:19.719
<v Speaker 2>he was doing everything he could already and there was

0:31:19.720 --> 0:31:21.200
<v Speaker 2>nothing more that he could do.

0:31:21.720 --> 0:31:23.200
<v Speaker 1>So you were saying to him, you got to get

0:31:23.200 --> 0:31:23.880
<v Speaker 1>me out of here.

0:31:24.080 --> 0:31:25.520
<v Speaker 2>I was like, please save me.

0:31:25.760 --> 0:31:26.640
<v Speaker 1>And what did he say?

0:31:28.680 --> 0:31:32.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he couldn't say anything. He just started, well,

0:31:32.560 --> 0:31:35.360
<v Speaker 2>he started crying. And it was the first time I'd

0:31:35.360 --> 0:31:41.000
<v Speaker 2>ever seen my father cry. It really really solidified for

0:31:41.160 --> 0:31:46.240
<v Speaker 2>me how bad the situation was, because I had never

0:31:46.280 --> 0:31:48.480
<v Speaker 2>seen my dad cry before in my entire life.

0:31:48.600 --> 0:31:51.080
<v Speaker 1>Is that the point where you started to consider at

0:31:51.160 --> 0:31:52.040
<v Speaker 1>least that you weren't going to.

0:31:51.960 --> 0:31:55.720
<v Speaker 2>Get out of there absolutely, And you know, that was

0:31:55.760 --> 0:31:59.680
<v Speaker 2>the period of time where I was writing in my

0:31:59.720 --> 0:32:04.360
<v Speaker 2>journy ernals, trying to imagine what a worthwhile life would

0:32:04.440 --> 0:32:07.440
<v Speaker 2>look like if it took another five years, or another

0:32:07.480 --> 0:32:10.000
<v Speaker 2>ten years, or another twenty years, or if I got

0:32:10.040 --> 0:32:13.400
<v Speaker 2>out as an old woman, Like what was I going

0:32:13.480 --> 0:32:17.760
<v Speaker 2>to do to make my life worth living? So that

0:32:17.920 --> 0:32:20.280
<v Speaker 2>was the kind of things that I was thinking about

0:32:20.280 --> 0:32:21.400
<v Speaker 2>as a twenty two year old.

0:32:22.640 --> 0:32:24.480
<v Speaker 1>And when did the sun come out again and you

0:32:24.520 --> 0:32:26.360
<v Speaker 1>started to have hope that you were going to get

0:32:26.360 --> 0:32:27.240
<v Speaker 1>out of the labyrinth.

0:32:28.040 --> 0:32:31.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, like I said, I was afraid to hope all

0:32:31.960 --> 0:32:33.440
<v Speaker 2>the way leading up to my acquittal.

0:32:33.560 --> 0:32:35.160
<v Speaker 1>You were prepared for it to go the wrong way.

0:32:35.440 --> 0:32:37.040
<v Speaker 2>I was prepared for it to go the wrong way.

0:32:37.040 --> 0:32:40.200
<v Speaker 2>And the moment I was acquitted, I lost it. In fact,

0:32:40.240 --> 0:32:43.960
<v Speaker 2>I lost it so hard that people who were escorting

0:32:44.000 --> 0:32:48.040
<v Speaker 2>me thought, like the police thought that I had misunderstood

0:32:48.040 --> 0:32:49.880
<v Speaker 2>the verdict. They were like trying to tell me, no,

0:32:49.960 --> 0:32:52.120
<v Speaker 2>you got to quit it, and I was like, I know.

0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:57.479
<v Speaker 2>And that was the moment of like, oh my god,

0:32:57.880 --> 0:33:00.680
<v Speaker 2>it's over. And the great irony of that is that

0:33:00.760 --> 0:33:04.440
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't over. And I entered into a whole new

0:33:05.480 --> 0:33:07.840
<v Speaker 2>version of this labyrinth where I thought I had got out,

0:33:07.880 --> 0:33:10.600
<v Speaker 2>and yet here's this yet another four years of labyrinth

0:33:10.600 --> 0:33:14.200
<v Speaker 2>ahead of me. And like the sort of true moment

0:33:14.360 --> 0:33:17.479
<v Speaker 2>of feeling like I'm no longer being hunted anymore was

0:33:17.560 --> 0:33:21.000
<v Speaker 2>after I was definitively acquitted by the Italian Supreme Court.

0:33:21.600 --> 0:33:24.160
<v Speaker 2>Throughout my entire trial, when everything was just getting worse

0:33:24.200 --> 0:33:27.280
<v Speaker 2>and worse and worse, I kept believing that it was

0:33:27.320 --> 0:33:29.880
<v Speaker 2>inevitable that I was going to be found innocent, because

0:33:29.920 --> 0:33:33.960
<v Speaker 2>I was like, there's just some horrible misunderstanding and eventually

0:33:34.320 --> 0:33:36.239
<v Speaker 2>the truth is going to come out. The jury's going

0:33:36.280 --> 0:33:39.000
<v Speaker 2>to see through all this bullshit that the prosecution is saying,

0:33:39.040 --> 0:33:41.600
<v Speaker 2>and I'm going to be released. So I was convinced

0:33:42.040 --> 0:33:43.880
<v Speaker 2>the day that I was convicted that I was going

0:33:43.920 --> 0:33:47.640
<v Speaker 2>to be acquitted. And then once that happened and the

0:33:47.680 --> 0:33:51.200
<v Speaker 2>world turned upside down and everything I thought was true

0:33:51.240 --> 0:33:55.840
<v Speaker 2>about reality was turned upside down. I no matter how

0:33:56.000 --> 0:33:59.880
<v Speaker 2>good it was getting throughout my acquittal, my appeals trial

0:34:00.080 --> 0:34:03.280
<v Speaker 2>leading up to my acquittal, I was afraid to hope

0:34:03.640 --> 0:34:07.360
<v Speaker 2>because I couldn't allow myself to be crushed again. And

0:34:07.400 --> 0:34:10.120
<v Speaker 2>so even when there was like big news that like,

0:34:10.200 --> 0:34:13.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, the independent experts are calling bullshit on all

0:34:13.080 --> 0:34:18.560
<v Speaker 2>the prosecution's forensic evidence. I was afraid to hope because

0:34:18.560 --> 0:34:21.319
<v Speaker 2>I knew that, like I was innocent the first time,

0:34:21.440 --> 0:34:24.719
<v Speaker 2>like what stopped them from acquitting me, you know, last time,

0:34:25.280 --> 0:34:29.560
<v Speaker 2>So like for me, those are the hard moments. The

0:34:29.600 --> 0:34:32.480
<v Speaker 2>sort of true moment of feeling like I'm no longer

0:34:32.520 --> 0:34:36.160
<v Speaker 2>being hunted anymore was after I was definitively acquitted by

0:34:36.160 --> 0:34:39.960
<v Speaker 2>the Italian Supreme Court. And honestly, one of my first

0:34:40.200 --> 0:34:44.440
<v Speaker 2>true experiences was actually when I first met Chris. I

0:34:44.520 --> 0:34:47.439
<v Speaker 2>was doing arts correspondence for a local newspaper. He wrote

0:34:47.520 --> 0:34:50.319
<v Speaker 2>his debut novel. I reviewed it for the paper, I

0:34:50.360 --> 0:34:54.240
<v Speaker 2>asked for an interview. I interviewed him and his co author.

0:34:54.719 --> 0:34:56.480
<v Speaker 2>They were two best friends who wrote a novel together,

0:34:57.080 --> 0:35:00.800
<v Speaker 2>and I had this great experience interviewing. We drank Scotch,

0:35:00.840 --> 0:35:03.200
<v Speaker 2>we watched Star Trek, We wandered around the neighborhood into

0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:06.600
<v Speaker 2>the night. And at the end of like hanging out

0:35:06.640 --> 0:35:10.040
<v Speaker 2>with these two guys who I'd never met before, Gavin,

0:35:10.320 --> 0:35:12.399
<v Speaker 2>his best friend and co author, gave me this big

0:35:12.440 --> 0:35:14.799
<v Speaker 2>bear hug and Chris shook my hand and said we

0:35:14.800 --> 0:35:18.360
<v Speaker 2>should be friends, and I was like, oh my god,

0:35:19.040 --> 0:35:23.200
<v Speaker 2>I can just make friends with people again, Like I

0:35:23.239 --> 0:35:28.319
<v Speaker 2>can just like meet people and make friends now, Like

0:35:28.400 --> 0:35:33.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't have to hide anymore, have a normal life, right,

0:35:33.280 --> 0:35:35.840
<v Speaker 2>and like, you know, my life is not normal. But

0:35:37.080 --> 0:35:41.239
<v Speaker 2>I was restored that that feeling that like I'm no

0:35:41.320 --> 0:35:44.160
<v Speaker 2>longer being hunted, I no longer have to fear people

0:35:44.200 --> 0:35:46.800
<v Speaker 2>that I don't know in the same way anymore.

0:35:47.400 --> 0:35:49.680
<v Speaker 1>Another thing that occurs to me about this is to

0:35:49.760 --> 0:35:53.200
<v Speaker 1>have Civics classes taught to teach people about what are

0:35:53.239 --> 0:35:54.920
<v Speaker 1>the things we need to do, one of which is

0:35:55.040 --> 0:35:59.239
<v Speaker 1>jury participation, in jury selection. To use your story as

0:35:59.239 --> 0:36:01.680
<v Speaker 1>a kind of a of a template here, Let's say

0:36:01.680 --> 0:36:04.000
<v Speaker 1>that girl, let's say she slept with everybody in the

0:36:04.040 --> 0:36:07.160
<v Speaker 1>Perugia phone directory. That doesn't make her.

0:36:07.120 --> 0:36:10.200
<v Speaker 2>A murderer, doesn't make her a murderer. Yeah, I could

0:36:10.200 --> 0:36:13.520
<v Speaker 2>have been a professional dominatrix and it shouldn't have mattered

0:36:13.560 --> 0:36:15.000
<v Speaker 2>because the evidence wasn't there.

0:36:15.040 --> 0:36:16.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean that's what bothers me.

0:36:16.880 --> 0:36:19.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I actually think Civics would be really really good

0:36:19.600 --> 0:36:22.840
<v Speaker 2>to teach in schools. And part of that civics course

0:36:22.960 --> 0:36:26.760
<v Speaker 2>would be not just your civic responsibilities, but also your rights.

0:36:27.440 --> 0:36:31.279
<v Speaker 2>So I didn't know what my rights were going into

0:36:31.280 --> 0:36:34.000
<v Speaker 2>the interrogation room. I didn't know how to recognize that

0:36:34.080 --> 0:36:37.080
<v Speaker 2>I was being interrogated as a suspect. They certainly didn't

0:36:37.160 --> 0:36:41.880
<v Speaker 2>tell me that. They certainly refused me a lawyer costing that.

0:36:42.080 --> 0:36:44.400
<v Speaker 2>So you know, like, so there are a million ways

0:36:44.480 --> 0:36:48.279
<v Speaker 2>that we are set up to be ignorant in the

0:36:48.360 --> 0:36:54.680
<v Speaker 2>face of these bigger societal structures that have enormous power

0:36:54.840 --> 0:36:58.520
<v Speaker 2>over our individual lives. And I think that it's an

0:36:58.560 --> 0:37:02.400
<v Speaker 2>atrocity that we aren't more empowered with the knowledge of

0:37:02.520 --> 0:37:06.160
<v Speaker 2>how we have power over those structures and also how

0:37:06.160 --> 0:37:08.000
<v Speaker 2>those structures have power over us.

0:37:08.320 --> 0:37:10.759
<v Speaker 1>I'm always filled with joky versions of this, but I

0:37:10.800 --> 0:37:13.080
<v Speaker 1>have this feeling like, you get out of prison, you

0:37:13.160 --> 0:37:15.200
<v Speaker 1>do the four plus years in prison, and you could

0:37:15.239 --> 0:37:17.120
<v Speaker 1>have been in prison for decades, and you get out.

0:37:17.719 --> 0:37:20.319
<v Speaker 1>How is your relationship with your parents now? Because, like

0:37:20.360 --> 0:37:23.000
<v Speaker 1>my joke version, as you call your mom and go, Mom,

0:37:23.719 --> 0:37:25.920
<v Speaker 1>I really miss you. Can we have lunch and she's like,

0:37:25.960 --> 0:37:29.160
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry, baby, I have tennis tomorrow. Where are you

0:37:29.200 --> 0:37:30.279
<v Speaker 1>at with your parents now?

0:37:30.880 --> 0:37:33.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean we've always been super super close. Can I

0:37:34.080 --> 0:37:36.839
<v Speaker 2>talk about a joke though that I really appreciated that

0:37:37.560 --> 0:37:40.000
<v Speaker 2>first of all, I loved you on thirty Rock, and

0:37:40.360 --> 0:37:44.319
<v Speaker 2>one of the first nice jokes about me was on

0:37:44.640 --> 0:37:47.759
<v Speaker 2>thirty Rock that I encountered. Oh, good God, maybe there's

0:37:47.760 --> 0:37:49.520
<v Speaker 2>some nice jokes out there, But most of the time

0:37:49.560 --> 0:37:51.719
<v Speaker 2>I found when I first came out, that people were

0:37:51.719 --> 0:37:55.480
<v Speaker 2>making jokes at my expense, of course, And the first

0:37:55.520 --> 0:37:58.080
<v Speaker 2>time that I heard a joke that was not at

0:37:58.080 --> 0:38:03.120
<v Speaker 2>my expense was Kristen on thirty Rock saying it's not

0:38:03.280 --> 0:38:06.080
<v Speaker 2>hard to be famous. Amanda Knox is famous for not

0:38:06.280 --> 0:38:11.439
<v Speaker 2>killing someone, and that was like, Oh, you can make

0:38:11.480 --> 0:38:14.240
<v Speaker 2>a joke and not at my expense, Thank you.

0:38:14.120 --> 0:38:18.040
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Kristin Shaw. But things are good with your family, absolutely,

0:38:18.400 --> 0:38:22.320
<v Speaker 1>and they appreciate you and hold you close because you

0:38:22.360 --> 0:38:25.440
<v Speaker 1>could be over there right now, in an alternate universe.

0:38:25.480 --> 0:38:27.880
<v Speaker 1>You could be over there now, just really really struggling.

0:38:28.160 --> 0:38:31.640
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, And their lives all came to a stop when

0:38:31.719 --> 0:38:34.320
<v Speaker 2>everything happened to me. So it's not like my life

0:38:34.400 --> 0:38:36.520
<v Speaker 2>was sort of trapped in a hole and theirs went on.

0:38:36.680 --> 0:38:40.080
<v Speaker 2>Like everyone in my family, their whole lives just came

0:38:40.120 --> 0:38:42.640
<v Speaker 2>to a stop. And this was especially difficult on my

0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:46.040
<v Speaker 2>younger sisters. I have three younger sisters and one of

0:38:46.080 --> 0:38:47.959
<v Speaker 2>them was eight years old at the time has happened,

0:38:48.000 --> 0:38:50.839
<v Speaker 2>another was thirteen, one was just going into college. Their

0:38:50.880 --> 0:38:56.000
<v Speaker 2>lives stopped, like everything, all my entire family became about

0:38:56.040 --> 0:39:00.560
<v Speaker 2>saving Amanda. Save Amanda. And it wasn't until I was

0:39:00.600 --> 0:39:02.800
<v Speaker 2>able to come home that we've all been able to

0:39:03.280 --> 0:39:06.799
<v Speaker 2>restart our lives. And of course we all live within

0:39:06.840 --> 0:39:09.439
<v Speaker 2>walking distance of each other, and it's always been that way.

0:39:09.960 --> 0:39:11.040
<v Speaker 1>Have you been back to Italy?

0:39:11.320 --> 0:39:14.240
<v Speaker 2>I have been back to Italy. So I was invited

0:39:14.360 --> 0:39:17.839
<v Speaker 2>by the Italy Innocence Project, which did not exist while

0:39:17.880 --> 0:39:21.359
<v Speaker 2>I was in prison, to come and speak at their

0:39:21.520 --> 0:39:29.239
<v Speaker 2>first ever annual conference about trial by Media. And I

0:39:29.280 --> 0:39:32.400
<v Speaker 2>felt that, like, of all of the ways to return

0:39:32.440 --> 0:39:36.040
<v Speaker 2>to Italy, that was the best way possible. Like, you know,

0:39:36.120 --> 0:39:37.960
<v Speaker 2>I had struggled with the idea of like how am

0:39:37.960 --> 0:39:40.560
<v Speaker 2>I going to go back and see the people who

0:39:40.600 --> 0:39:43.040
<v Speaker 2>supported me and thank them and like to try to

0:39:43.080 --> 0:39:49.480
<v Speaker 2>do that process. And I returned and the press called it,

0:39:49.560 --> 0:39:53.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, Amanda's familiar dance with the with the paparazzi,

0:39:53.200 --> 0:39:56.200
<v Speaker 2>and it's like, actually, I'm being assaulted by them, Like

0:39:56.280 --> 0:39:59.799
<v Speaker 2>I can't move because they're throwing themselves at me and

0:39:59.840 --> 0:40:01.919
<v Speaker 2>my partner, the country.

0:40:01.560 --> 0:40:03.600
<v Speaker 1>That originated the word paparazzi, by the.

0:40:03.600 --> 0:40:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Way, yep, Yeah, that was a crazy experience. I had

0:40:07.239 --> 0:40:08.760
<v Speaker 2>many many good moments.

0:40:08.920 --> 0:40:11.000
<v Speaker 1>Were you scared to go there? Were you terrified to

0:40:11.040 --> 0:40:11.399
<v Speaker 1>go there?

0:40:11.480 --> 0:40:13.440
<v Speaker 2>I was absolutely scared to go there.

0:40:13.880 --> 0:40:15.879
<v Speaker 1>You're braver than I. I would never go back there

0:40:15.920 --> 0:40:16.520
<v Speaker 1>again ever.

0:40:16.880 --> 0:40:21.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, Like the crazy thing is, these things happen everywhere, right, Like,

0:40:21.719 --> 0:40:26.080
<v Speaker 2>it's not like there's anywhere where you're safe from being judged,

0:40:26.160 --> 0:40:29.719
<v Speaker 2>you know, like misunderstood and misjudged and mistreated.

0:40:29.840 --> 0:40:32.400
<v Speaker 1>You're in as much danger here as you are in Peruja.

0:40:32.600 --> 0:40:35.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. The one difference being that like here in the US,

0:40:35.719 --> 0:40:39.640
<v Speaker 2>there's more of a nuanced sentiment towards me, whereas in

0:40:39.719 --> 0:40:43.799
<v Speaker 2>Italy there's more of a She's the oj Simpson of

0:40:43.920 --> 0:40:47.840
<v Speaker 2>Italy kind of thing. And I was surprised. Like the

0:40:47.880 --> 0:40:51.600
<v Speaker 2>big surprise that I had was when I gave my speech,

0:40:51.719 --> 0:40:55.040
<v Speaker 2>I was fully prepared to get arrested again, like to

0:40:55.920 --> 0:40:58.719
<v Speaker 2>like get shanked, get booed, like all of that.

0:40:58.719 --> 0:41:02.480
<v Speaker 1>Do you say shanked a prison term? You just put

0:41:02.480 --> 0:41:06.920
<v Speaker 1>a chill in my back to get shanked. What a

0:41:06.960 --> 0:41:10.040
<v Speaker 1>reveal that was? You really did do four years in prison.

0:41:10.920 --> 0:41:14.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Shit, I was surprised when people gave me a

0:41:14.760 --> 0:41:19.080
<v Speaker 2>standing applause for my talk, and granted, these are the

0:41:19.160 --> 0:41:20.879
<v Speaker 2>kind of people who are going to show up, who

0:41:20.880 --> 0:41:24.080
<v Speaker 2>are interested in criminal justice issues, who are interested in

0:41:24.120 --> 0:41:26.560
<v Speaker 2>the Italy Innocence Project, who are going to show up anyway,

0:41:26.680 --> 0:41:29.799
<v Speaker 2>so they I was a more accommodating audience, but I

0:41:29.920 --> 0:41:33.280
<v Speaker 2>was not. I was not ready for it. Like I

0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:35.640
<v Speaker 2>I remember like being whisked away because I had have

0:41:35.680 --> 0:41:38.040
<v Speaker 2>personal security while I was there, Like it was, it

0:41:38.120 --> 0:41:40.920
<v Speaker 2>was not an easy process, and this like personal security

0:41:40.920 --> 0:41:43.680
<v Speaker 2>guard sort of whisked me away down the stairs, down

0:41:43.680 --> 0:41:46.680
<v Speaker 2>the hallway in underground where I had this like secret

0:41:46.760 --> 0:41:49.799
<v Speaker 2>sort of underground dungeon bunker thing where I sort of

0:41:49.880 --> 0:41:53.680
<v Speaker 2>lived throughout the entire conference. And as soon as we

0:41:53.760 --> 0:41:56.520
<v Speaker 2>got down the stairs, he gave me a little squeeze

0:41:56.520 --> 0:42:01.520
<v Speaker 2>and said parfeto and I just started bawling. And it

0:42:01.600 --> 0:42:04.520
<v Speaker 2>was a really great moment where I was like, Wow,

0:42:04.520 --> 0:42:08.040
<v Speaker 2>maybe I'll be given a chance, not even a second chance,

0:42:08.120 --> 0:42:10.320
<v Speaker 2>like a chance. In Italy.

0:42:12.920 --> 0:42:19.080
<v Speaker 1>Journalist, public speaker and podcaster Amanda Knox by'm Alec Baldwin

0:42:19.400 --> 0:42:23.320
<v Speaker 1>and this is here's the thing We're produced by Kathleen Russo,

0:42:23.800 --> 0:42:28.280
<v Speaker 1>Carrie Donahue, and Zach McNeice. Our engineer is Frank Imperial.

0:42:28.719 --> 0:43:04.120
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening.