1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Hear's the Thing 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 1: from iHeart Radio. In two thousand and nine, Amanda Knox 3 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: was sentenced to twenty six years in prison for a 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: crime she didn't commit. You probably remember her case. Amanda 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: was a foreign exchange student in Perugia, Italy in two 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: thousand and seven when her roommate Meredith Kircher was raped 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: and murdered. Despite a lack of physical evidence linking her 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: to the crime, Knox spent almost a decade of her 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: life stuck in the maze of the Italian criminal justice system. 10 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: Amanda Knox is thirty three now and lives in Seattle. 11 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: Last year, she and her husband launched a podcast called Labyrinths. 12 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: In December, they put out a special episode to mark 13 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: the release from prison of Meredith Kircher's actual killer, Rudy Gaday. 14 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for being here on this labyrinth with me. 15 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 2: Should he have gotten the life sentence, I don't think so. 16 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 2: I would not wish an unreasonably harsh sentence on anyone. 17 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 2: I would wish them only true rehabilitation. Gooday's lawyers say 18 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 2: he's well along that path. Maybe so, but I do 19 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 2: know one thing. So long as he refuses to admit 20 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 2: his crimes to show true regret, I will continue to 21 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 2: unjustly bear his infamy, be held accountable for the Kircher's grief, 22 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 2: be shamed for not showing remorse for Gooday's crime. He 23 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 2: could end all that in a second. 24 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: Amanda Knox knows what it's like to be stuck inside 25 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: someone else's preconception of you. 26 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 2: So the work that I'm doing now is I'm a podcaster. 27 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 2: I'm a journalist. I very often, especially in my journalism 28 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 2: and focusing on on criminal justice issues, not just wrongful 29 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: conviction issues, but more broad criminal justice issues. I'm on 30 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 2: the board of the Frederick Douglass Project, which is working 31 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 2: to build bridges between the incarcerated population and the non 32 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 2: incarcerated population. So I'm deeply interested in that divide. But 33 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 2: my podcast work, and Labyrinths being the podcast that I've 34 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 2: devoted so much energy and love into this past year, 35 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 2: is about how people navigate being lost. We just had 36 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 2: a twelve episode season that concluded on January first with 37 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 2: an interview with LeVar Burton, which was super fun, and. 38 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: You discussed what with him. 39 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 2: For example, we talked about his career and how he 40 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 2: could have done a lot of different things, how he 41 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 2: was on the path to becoming a Catholic priest except 42 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 2: that this one thing happened, and then he very well 43 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 2: could have gone into politics except that this thing happened. 44 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: So we had this really fun and we actually had 45 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 2: a lot of fun with that episode because Chris and 46 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 2: I decided to become super nerdy and go sci fi, 47 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 2: and we created alternate dimensions where like we talked to 48 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: Catholic priest LeVar Burtons and politician LeVar Burton. 49 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: He's so talented. 50 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a sweetheart. He was so nice. But we 51 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 2: cover a lot of ground in the in the season, 52 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 2: and we go from anywhere from like super super dramatic stories, 53 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 2: like we interviewed Samantha Geimer, who was the fourteen year 54 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 2: old girl who was raped by Roman Polanski. Yeah, and 55 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: how like interestingly speaking of you know, people using individual 56 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 2: human beings like worst experiences of their lives as entertainment 57 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 2: that they're entitled to and as a profit making machine. 58 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 2: Like that was her story, and she didn't react the 59 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 2: way or didn't want the things that people expected a 60 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 2: rape victim to want, and so they vilified her because 61 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 2: she actually wanted some kind of amicable resolut with Polanski, 62 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: and they themselves found ambicable resolutions behind closed doors, while 63 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: the rest of society was still trying to churn up 64 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 2: this like victim and villain narrative. What's the name of 65 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 2: the podcast Labyrinths? 66 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: Labyrinths. 67 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 2: There's actually a really awesome comic that was drawn and 68 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 2: came out shortly after I got out of prison, which 69 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 2: showed me escaping the labyrinth of the Italian criminal justice system, 70 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 2: and I felt that that was a really beautiful metaphor. 71 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 2: And what I've found is that not only is my 72 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 2: own case, you know, it's remarkable and unique in a 73 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,919 Speaker 2: lot of ways, but it's also totally not remarkable and 74 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 2: unique in the sense that it has all the telltale 75 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: signs of wrongful convictions that happen here in the United States. 76 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 2: But also like the feeling of going through that experience 77 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 2: of being lost and feeling like there's this overpowering force 78 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 2: that's like you can't actually navigate and you're sort of 79 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 2: like on this journey and you don't know how it's 80 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 2: going to end. That's an experience that lots of people have. 81 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 2: I remember going back to school and taking a poetry class, 82 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 2: and there was a girl in my poetry class who 83 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 2: was really clicking with my poetry. And I wasn't, you know, 84 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 2: writing explicitly like I'm Amanda Knox. I was in prison 85 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: for crime I didn't commit. It was more just like 86 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 2: very emotional. And eventually one day she figured out who 87 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 2: I was and she said, oh my god, you're Amanda Knox. 88 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, no, Like what Google rabbit 89 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: hole has she gone down now? And instead she said, no, No, 90 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 2: you don't understand. I was gang raped when I was sixteen, 91 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 2: and the feeling of what you went through feels like 92 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 2: what I went through when I was gang raped at sixteen. 93 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 2: And I was like wow. So the fact that like 94 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 2: I sit in this very weird position where I'm a 95 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: not very usual wrongfully convicted person in what way, Well, 96 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 2: I'm female, for one thing. 97 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: Who's usually wrongfully convicted. 98 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 2: People who are usually wrongfully convicted tend to be, especially 99 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 2: in this country, tend to be young men from impoverished 100 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 2: backgrounds and young men of color. 101 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: And that's because they can't afford a good defense. 102 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 2: I mean, that's part of it. There's also a lot 103 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 2: of biases that go into it. There's a lot of 104 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 2: sort of hysteria around youth culture, like even just issues 105 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 2: with like gangs. That's an issue where it's like, you know, 106 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: a lot of people don't understand that kids just by 107 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 2: virtue of living in a neighborhood are sort of associated 108 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 2: with gangs, even if they have never committed a crime. 109 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 2: And so suddenly you're like in a gang book and 110 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 2: you're identifiable as a gang member. But that's only because 111 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 2: you happen to live in that neighborhood, and you happen 112 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 2: to associate with a number of people who also live 113 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 2: in that neighborhood. You know, those kinds of things. But 114 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 2: the major thing is that the criminal justice system is 115 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 2: a system that was built by men for men, because 116 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 2: the vast majority of people who are committing crimes are men, 117 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 2: and for someone like me to be put through the 118 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: criminal justice system as a defendant is highly unusual. I 119 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: come from a middle class background, I come from an 120 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 2: educated background. I have no history of you know, behavioral 121 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,559 Speaker 2: problems or anything like that. Like I'm usually what I mean, actually, 122 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 2: usually the victims of crimes also happen to be young 123 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 2: men of color, but generally when you think of someone 124 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 2: like me, the media presents someone like me as a 125 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: crime victim, and for me to be in a position 126 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: of being able to both sympathize with what it is 127 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: like to be a young woman who is victimized by 128 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 2: a man, and to be able to sympathize with the 129 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 2: experience of young men who are being put through this 130 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: incrediblely unfair criminal justice process, that puts me in a 131 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 2: unique position to like build bridges, and I kind of 132 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 2: view my work as bridge building, as like acknowledging the 133 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: complex humanity of people on both sides of the equation 134 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: and being able to bring nuance back into the true 135 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: crime genre, which I tend to feel has been more 136 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 2: dominated by scandalous, salacious, black and white presentations of stories 137 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 2: as opposed to more complicated ones. And a lot of times, 138 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 2: like a lot of people reach out to me thinking 139 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 2: that I am going to be able to understand their 140 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 2: humanity in a way that other people just don't or 141 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 2: refuse to, and so a lot of the stories that 142 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 2: I end up talking about are just people who've reached 143 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 2: out to me. 144 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: So you're not somebody who people are coming to you 145 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: and going I need you to fix this for me. 146 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 2: I mean, a lot of people reach out to me 147 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 2: asking me to fix things for them, But the truth 148 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 2: of the matter is, I'm not a lawyer, so like 149 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: a lot of the people who would love for me 150 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 2: to be able to do something about someone's case, like 151 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 2: I usually end up being the person who like directs 152 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 2: them towards the innocence project that is closest to their location. 153 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 2: What I end up doing is I try to give 154 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 2: a voice to the people who have felt like their 155 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 2: voice has been stolen from them. And once again, it 156 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 2: isn't necessarily someone who's been wrongfully convicted. 157 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: Did you come out of this experience when you finally 158 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: were free, did you come out of this with some 159 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 1: divine ability to tell who's telling the truth and who isn't. 160 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 2: No, I don't think anyone has that ability. No, they don't, 161 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 2: absolutely not. I think that what it gave me was 162 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 2: a perspective that I wouldn't have had otherwise, but also 163 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: a sensitivity to when I view people as being scapegoated, 164 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 2: whether they did something or not. I am very sensitive 165 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 2: to when people become ideas of people and not actual people, 166 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: and I can see that happening on a day to 167 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 2: day basis. 168 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: What was the most consistent idea that you represented the people. 169 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 2: That Foxynoxy was a drug adult, sexually promiscuous young woman 170 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 2: who manipulates men to do her bidding, Like there's this 171 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 2: idea of I think there was also this sense of 172 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,439 Speaker 2: like female jealousy that was imbued in me. So basically 173 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 2: everything that is stereotypically bad about being a woman was 174 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 2: sort of put on me. I was made to be 175 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 2: this like jealous, sexually promiscuous, manipulative, druggy woman, and I 176 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 2: came to embody that in the minds of people. And 177 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: on the other hand, I also was, you know, portrayed 178 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 2: as this like saint like damsel in distress, and even 179 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: in the courtroom, people were, you know, presenting me as like, 180 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 2: on the one hand, she has the face of an angel, 181 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 2: on the other hand, she's really like the devil. And 182 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 2: it was like, how about I'm neither. I'm just a 183 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 2: young person who, like my roommate was murdered and I 184 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 2: had no idea what was going on. And everyone was 185 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 2: speaking an Italian really fast, and I had no idea 186 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 2: what was going on, and I got scared and here 187 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 2: I am so how. 188 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 1: Much time did you spend in the Italian prison. 189 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 2: Total four years. My god, So from age twenty to 190 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 2: twenty four, I spent in a foreign prison. 191 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: And everybody in there with you was Italian. 192 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 2: Actually, the vast majority of the people who were in 193 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 2: there were either Nigerian or Roma. 194 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: Interesting. 195 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 2: I mean, there were plenty of Italians in there, and 196 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 2: a lot of them were very, very poor Italian people 197 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: who had ties to the drug trade and stuff like that. 198 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 2: A lot and a lot of people in for drug offenses, 199 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 2: whether they were drug mules or drug dealers. 200 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: Amanda Knox, if you like crime drama where the defendant 201 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: is falsely accused, that listened to my conversation with filmmaker 202 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: Joe Berlinger. Berlinger directed the Paradise Lost series of documentaries 203 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: about the trial of the West Memphis three. 204 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 3: I mean, here you have allegedly a crime by three 205 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 3: teens who are not professional killers, who brought, according to 206 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 3: the prosecutor, three little boys out into the woods and 207 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 3: slaughtered them to death in this savage beating, and yet 208 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 3: there was no blood found at the crime scene. And 209 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 3: then you look at the confession, and the confession is 210 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 3: riddled with inconsistencies and problems coaching and coaching, so within 211 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 3: months we knew that something was amiss. 212 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: Hear more of my conversation with Joe Berlinger at Here's 213 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: the Thing dot org. After the Break, Amanda Knox describes 214 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: the toll that her long wait for justice had on 215 00:12:52,720 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: her family. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's 216 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: the Thing. After her release from prison, Amanda Knox wrote 217 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: a memoir titled Waiting to be Heard. A few years later, 218 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:18,319 Speaker 1: Netflix released a documentary called Simply Amanda Knox. However, she's 219 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: resisted offers to participate in a feature film based on 220 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: her experience. 221 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 2: I actually very much pushed back against that. I mean, 222 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 2: there's kind of a film that's sort of a narrative 223 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 2: version of it. It's not worth watching. It's really bad. 224 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 2: I Mean, what I thought that the documentary did that 225 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 2: a film couldn't do was it allowed everyone to sort 226 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 2: of present their own thoughts in perspective about what happened. 227 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 2: And it didn't claim to be Like, it didn't have 228 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 2: a scene where I either kill or don't kill Meredith 229 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 2: Kircher right, Like the problem with having a film be 230 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: about it is you're making some sort of you're taking 231 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 2: some stance about reality that is built up of a 232 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 2: lot of claims of reality, but not necessarily reality. And 233 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 2: in a situation where so much judgment is attached to that, 234 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 2: I found that that was inevitably going to be flawed. 235 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: Whereas a documentary that genuinely allows everyone to portray what 236 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 2: they experienced and what they think about what they. 237 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: Experienced and the facts as they know. 238 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 2: And the facts as they know them is going to 239 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 2: be closer to the truth and also is going to 240 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 2: present the crux of this issue, which is that people 241 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 2: are making claims about reality that they can't actually you know, 242 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 2: like sustain with evidence, what do we actually know? I 243 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 2: want to preserve this sense of like, well, you know, 244 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: the person who actually committed this crime, Rudy Gadet, who 245 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 2: no one ever talks about, is not someone and who's 246 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 2: forthcoming with what actually happened. We have the evidence of 247 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 2: him at the crime scene, of him interacting with Meredith's 248 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 2: body and leaving his fingerprints and footprints in her blood. 249 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 2: We know that. Do we have a camera on the 250 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 2: wall where we see him doing it or we're in 251 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 2: his mind? No? 252 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: No, he confesses right, And imagine for you you want 253 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: to avoid that where they're going to leave it gray 254 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: whether you really killed this girl or not. You know, 255 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: a feature film is always. 256 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 2: Going to be like, well, you know, yeah. 257 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: That's a fear I would have. 258 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. That's the unfortunate thing about true crime in general 259 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 2: is there is this sort of temptation to treat it 260 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 2: fundamentally as an entertainment product. And due to that, like 261 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 2: the thing that is most entertaining is when people can 262 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 2: walk away from the movie and just argue about it. 263 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 2: You know, like, if I feel this way about the case, 264 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 2: you feel that boy about the case, and you know, 265 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 2: now we can argue about it because it's unclear. And 266 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 2: I think one of my big frustrations with my own 267 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 2: case was that the prosecution, first of all, but also 268 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 2: just people in general, always wanted to have this attitude of, well, 269 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 2: the defense says this, and the prosecution says that, and 270 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 2: so you know, there must be some sort of truth 271 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 2: in between. Amanda must be guilty of something. We're not 272 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: quite sure what it is, but she must be guilty 273 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 2: of something. And that's actually like one of the major 274 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 2: reasons why I was retried and reconvicted. I don't know 275 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 2: if you knew that, or maybe you've followed that in 276 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 2: the documentary. But like in Italy, the double jeopardy laws 277 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: aren't the same, and so when the sort of whole 278 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 2: forensic case against me came crashing down after my acquittal, 279 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 2: I was retried again but on behavioral evidence. So basically 280 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 2: the prosecution said, sure, we can't actually place her at 281 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 2: the crime scene, but she just didn't act like I 282 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 2: was just something like, we can't be totally wrong, so 283 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 2: like something's got to be there. And I was reconvicted 284 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: on that, like just on that sort of sense that 285 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 2: there must be something there. 286 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't have the evidence yet, but we're going 287 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: to find it. Trust me. 288 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, like there's some you know, I just got a 289 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 2: vibe and they bought that. And it wasn't until the 290 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 2: Supreme Court. I was on trial for eight years, and 291 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 2: it wasn't until the court swooped in and was like, 292 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: where's the evidence. There's literally no evidence. 293 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: Explain to people who don't know what are the extradition 294 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: arrangements between Italy and the United States. Did they try 295 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: to have you extra died it? Because when you were 296 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: convicted again, you didn't go back right. 297 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: So the way that it worked was that there is 298 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 2: an extradition treaty between the United States and Italy, And 299 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 2: so while I was on trial there, I was in prison, 300 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 2: and then I was acquitted and I was allowed to 301 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 2: go home, but I was still on trial, like they 302 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 2: still pursued a case against me, and I was retried 303 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 2: in absentia, so they had a whole trial without me 304 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: in Italy while I was here living in the United States. 305 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 2: And while that was going on, I was meeting with 306 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 2: lawyers here to see, depending on the outcome of this 307 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 2: new trial, do I want to make a case to 308 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: at least potentially serve my sentence here in the United 309 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 2: States so it's less of a burden on my family. 310 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 2: So here I am like trying to go to college 311 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 2: and go to school, but also making plans to potentially 312 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 2: turn myself into the cops in case there's a bad 313 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 2: outcome in this case, which there was, and I'm trying 314 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 2: to like plan to how am I going to fight 315 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 2: my case in court here in the US, to just 316 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:42,479 Speaker 2: see if I can try to serve a sentence here 317 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 2: in the US as opposed to being trucked all the 318 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 2: way back to Italy. Like that was my twenties that. 319 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: Doesn't exist to you can't serve your time in the 320 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: US for a crime in Italy, can you. 321 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 2: Well, the US has discretion over whether or not it 322 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 2: actually will fulfill that extradition treaty. It can always say, 323 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 2: you know what, I don't really care to extradite her. 324 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 2: She's going to stay here in the US. But because 325 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 2: we want to appease the Italian justice system, we're going 326 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 2: to hold her here in the US. She'll serve her sentence. 327 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: Really, I didn't know that. I went through a divorce 328 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: in California what's been re christened the Parents' Rights movement. 329 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: It was the father's rights movement. Women were favored so 330 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 1: clearly in courts about custody and so forth. And that's 331 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: slowly changing. But in an analysis that different organizations I 332 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: worked with did, California was ranked at the bottom of 333 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: men's rights. I mean, it was a really, really, really 334 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: because and that breaks down to basically two the haves 335 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,959 Speaker 1: and the have nots. I was in court, and if 336 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: the guy that walks in the room is a gardener 337 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: and he's getting divorced from his wife, the divorce proceedings 338 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: are over in fifteen or twenty minutes. There's no money 339 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: for lawyers to mine and pump out of that situation. 340 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: If a famous whatever, actor, writer, musician, it doesn't matter 341 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: government official. If somebody prominent who was presumed to have 342 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: the resources comes into court, it's like this is a 343 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: big business. So they say to you, Alec Baldwin, your 344 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: daughter who back then she was five years old, she's 345 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: on the other side of this six foot concrete wall. 346 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: Here's a paper clip, start digging, and you're going to 347 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: start digging because if you're a normal human being who 348 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: has a child, you want to be with that child, 349 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: you want to parent that child. I know many people 350 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: drop out and they give up and they write it 351 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: off and go, I'm going to go start another family 352 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: because they're so abused by that system. And so abused 353 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 1: was I by that that I wrote a book. So 354 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: I wasn't wrongfully convicted of murder in an Italian courtroom. 355 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: But I was somebody who did everything they asked me 356 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 1: to do, and they just kept punishing me because they 357 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 1: knew I was going to keep coming. I'm wondering in 358 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: your case, was they're just this driving need for you 359 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: to share with other people what I went through and 360 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 1: the lessons of that and how you can avoid what 361 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: I went through. Was there some of that? 362 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I just want to say that 363 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:14,479 Speaker 2: I'm really sorry that you went through that. And I 364 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 2: was going to point out, like, you know exactly what 365 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 2: it's like to be made to be the center of 366 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 2: a morality play that people feel like they can just 367 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 2: you know, keep taking and like profiting from and profiting 368 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 2: from and profiting from. And I'm sure the tabloids have 369 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: their cut of the pie too, Like I get it, 370 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 2: Like it's easy to be made the villain of a story, 371 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 2: especially when you're on trial, especially when you're accused. Yeah, 372 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 2: like all of the sort of prejudices and stereotypes that 373 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 2: we associate with people, but we don't say in polite company. 374 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 2: As soon as you're accused of something and you're in court, 375 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 2: like everyone feels comfortable bringing those stereotypes and prejudices to 376 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 2: the table, Like it's no, it's always now we're allowed 377 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 2: to say she's a. 378 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: Whore right now? When you went to prison, what was 379 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: the sentence. 380 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 2: The first time I was convicted, I was sentenced to 381 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 2: twenty six years, And when I was reconvicted and resentenced, 382 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: I was sentenced to twenty eight and a half years. 383 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 2: But to your point previously, I think that especially when 384 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 2: we're talking about someone like you being in court for 385 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 2: not you know, a murder, right, like, this is a 386 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: situation where it's and I think it points to the 387 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: fact that, like, this issue is not just about wrongful convictions. 388 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 2: It's broader than that. It's about judgment. It's about mob 389 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 2: mentality and mob profit off of an individual human being, 390 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 2: and it's about the dehumanization of individual human beings for profit. 391 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 2: That is something that has repercussions, not just in wrongful 392 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 2: convictions cases where like the stakes are highest because you know, 393 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 2: the prosecutor ultimate. 394 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: Cancel culture, right, the ultimate cancelation. Yes, you're going to 395 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: go to prison for twenty eight and a half years. 396 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 2: For a crime you did not commit. 397 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: Amanda Knox. If you're enjoying this conversation, don't keep it 398 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: to yourself. Tell the world and be sure to subscribe 399 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts 400 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, 401 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,959 Speaker 1: Amanda talks about returning to Italy for the first time 402 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: since her release. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to 403 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing When Amanda Knox was released after four 404 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: years in prison, she returned to Seattle. It took time 405 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: for her to rebuild her life. Last year, on February 406 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: twenty ninth, she married writer Christopher Robinson. 407 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 2: He's a novelist, he has two master's degrees in poetry. 408 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 2: He's but you know, he's my partner. 409 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: DNA expert. 410 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 2: Yeah no, no, no, not at all. 411 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 1: In fact, nothing to do with that. 412 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 2: No, if anything, I've sort of like dragged him into 413 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 2: this world and that he you know, didn't really have 414 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 2: that much of a perspective on He was just like 415 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 2: a philosophy poetry guy. But we have a really great 416 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 2: dynamic because of that, because you know, he can bring 417 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 2: his sort of analytical self. I bring my emotional, experiential self, 418 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 2: and then we put that together into what we hope 419 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 2: is a really complex, nuanced, heartfelt, you know journey that 420 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 2: we put people on to your experience with paparazzi is 421 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 2: something that you know, one of the things that people 422 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 2: would tell me when I came home was they would 423 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 2: say things like, I feel really bad for you because 424 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 2: it's not like you're a celebrity. It's not like you 425 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 2: asked for it. You just get you know, people chasing 426 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 2: you down the street. Do they do that to you 427 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 2: now today? No? But when I first came home, and 428 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 2: for many many minu months afterwards, and actually the entire time, 429 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 2: I was still on trial, so like I was still 430 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: in I was in freedom for four years, but still 431 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 2: on trial. Like any time something happened with the case, 432 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,479 Speaker 2: there would be people outside of my apartment building. 433 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: But that's subsided now. 434 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 2: Yes, it's all finished. Now the Supreme Court in Italy 435 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,199 Speaker 2: definitively acquitted me in twenty fifteen. So it's over. Like 436 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 2: it's over in the sense that I was definitively acquitted. 437 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 2: It's not over in the sense that, like my entire 438 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 2: life and identity is now associated with a crime that 439 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 2: I didn't commit, that is still an ongoing reality. 440 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: Do you feel that way? Do you go places and 441 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 1: do you? I mean not now? Maybe it's died down 442 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: and where you live is it's home, and maybe you 443 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: fitted and people are much more, you know, kind of 444 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: polite toward you if you will. But I mean, I'll 445 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: walk into restaurants you just see that look in people's eyes. 446 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: Someone's eating with a crowd of people. They smack the 447 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: person next to them. They look at you, they look 448 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: at them, they talk, everyone huddles up, they lie, and 449 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: then all of them look at you at the same time. 450 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: Five heads go slap. Then they will come back into 451 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: the home and start laughing. And you are this fodder 452 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 1: for them in this kind of gossipy, tabloidy way. 453 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,439 Speaker 2: Well again, you're an idea of a person, right like 454 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 2: they've had you as an idea of a person in 455 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 2: their mind this whole time. And the way that I 456 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 2: feel when I'm moving through the world is that I 457 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 2: have this sort of doppelgang or version of me that 458 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 2: sort of stands in front of me, and everywhere I go, 459 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 2: I see people seeing her, and I have no idea 460 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 2: what they're actually seeing because what the vision of me 461 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 2: that they're actually seeing was constructed out of probably just 462 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,199 Speaker 2: a lot of media, but what media and who? And like, 463 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 2: you know, what are the things that they are projecting 464 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 2: onto the name and face Amanda Knox or Foxy Noxy. 465 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 2: You know, there's a sense of sort of entitlement because 466 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 2: we are not, like I don't think our brains are 467 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 2: even really well adapted to understand that a human being 468 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 2: that we've seen but never encountered is a real human being. 469 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 2: Like back in you know, hunter gatherer days, if you 470 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 2: ever heard of a human being who you had never 471 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 2: actually met before in your real life, they were a god. 472 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 2: Like that's that's the only person that you would ever 473 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 2: have heard of that you've never encountered on day to 474 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 2: day life. And the king would be a god. And 475 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 2: so this like idea of a person is actually something 476 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 2: that is very difficult for people to like genuinely understand. 477 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 2: So I don't know if that's you know, something that 478 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 2: can help you process or you know, console yourself or 479 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 2: find peace. Is like we actually, generally our brains are 480 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 2: really really bad at understanding that a human being that 481 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 2: we've heard of but never encountered before is a human 482 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 2: being like I am. 483 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 1: I always tell people the worst thing in life is 484 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: to be misunderstood, Like also there and say, kind of 485 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: only people really knew who I was. I just don't 486 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 1: feel to think people you know what we do, and 487 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: you know my wife and I what we do philanthropically 488 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: and all those silly things that you wind up having 489 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: to resist the desire to point your finger that underline that. 490 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: But I do this. And here's another thing, you. 491 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,959 Speaker 2: Know, I'm a human being. Look, there are multiple sides 492 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 2: of me. 493 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: But that's the trap that you lunge in that way 494 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: and you start to advertise, and you start to respond 495 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 1: and say to people, well, I'm really this great guy, 496 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: and you don't get me, you get deeper in the 497 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: quicksand unfortunately when you do that. But my point is 498 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: is that in your case, you're wrongfully convicted. But there 499 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: are people who do these crimes. Someone killed Meredith Kercher. 500 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 2: His name is Rudy Gaday. He was actually recently released 501 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 2: from prison. 502 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: He was I mean, without getting into any ugly details, 503 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: can you share with us just one moment of when 504 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: you really, really when you were in prison and you 505 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: just hit rock bottom and you thought, what the am 506 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: I going to do? What was that feeling like for 507 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: you as a person who didn't belong there. 508 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, there are a number of moments that come to mind. Unfortunately, 509 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 2: So first of all, I should describe what was the 510 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 2: default setting. The default setting for me in prison was 511 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 2: I had like I had been the sort of like cheerful, 512 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 2: just like having a good life kind of person, and 513 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 2: my new emotional default setting was reset to sad. Oh, 514 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 2: so I woke up sad. I lived through the day sad. 515 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 2: I went to bed sad, and that was just like 516 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 2: my new emotional default setting. 517 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 518 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 2: And I just sort of like lived that and I 519 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 2: became numb to it, even like I was just sad 520 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 2: and that was just normal. 521 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 1: What an amazing answer. 522 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 2: But on top of that, like there were moments where, 523 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 2: you know, depending on the various places that we were 524 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 2: in the case, Like very shortly after I was convicted, 525 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 2: two years into my imprisonment, because it took that long 526 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 2: for the trial to go do its whole thing, my 527 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 2: dad came in to visitation and he had just had 528 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 2: like a conversation with the lawyers about potentially how long 529 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,959 Speaker 2: it was going to take for the appeals process, and 530 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 2: you know, he had to share with me, you know, 531 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 2: maybe it's going to be, you know, another several years. 532 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 2: It could be five years, it could be ten years. 533 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 2: We're not quite sure. And I at that moment, you know, 534 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 2: during my visitations, I would very very I tried very 535 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 2: very hard to be cheerful and to like have just 536 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 2: like this positive moment with my family members because those 537 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 2: moments were precious, right. 538 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: I didn't want to upset my dad. I'm here, wrongfully 539 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: convicted of murder, facing a twenty six year sentence in 540 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: an Italian prison. But you know, I really really don't 541 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: want to upset dad. 542 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 2: I don't want to upset Dad because it's like we 543 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 2: only have some We only have six hours a month 544 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 2: that we get to see each other. So like, this 545 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 2: is my one hour with my dad, and I just 546 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 2: couldn't hold it together and I started sobbing. And then 547 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 2: I did the thing that is like the worst thing 548 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 2: that I did in prison, which is that I begged 549 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 2: my dad to save me, even though I knew that 550 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,719 Speaker 2: he was doing everything he could already and there was 551 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 2: nothing more that he could do. 552 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: So you were saying to him, you got to get 553 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: me out of here. 554 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 2: I was like, please save me. 555 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: And what did he say? 556 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 2: I mean, he couldn't say anything. He just started, well, 557 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 2: he started crying. And it was the first time I'd 558 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 2: ever seen my father cry. It really really solidified for 559 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 2: me how bad the situation was, because I had never 560 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 2: seen my dad cry before in my entire life. 561 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: Is that the point where you started to consider at 562 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: least that you weren't going to. 563 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 2: Get out of there absolutely, And you know, that was 564 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 2: the period of time where I was writing in my 565 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 2: journy ernals, trying to imagine what a worthwhile life would 566 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 2: look like if it took another five years, or another 567 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 2: ten years, or another twenty years, or if I got 568 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 2: out as an old woman, Like what was I going 569 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 2: to do to make my life worth living? So that 570 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 2: was the kind of things that I was thinking about 571 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 2: as a twenty two year old. 572 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: And when did the sun come out again and you 573 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: started to have hope that you were going to get 574 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: out of the labyrinth. 575 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 2: Well, like I said, I was afraid to hope all 576 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 2: the way leading up to my acquittal. 577 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: You were prepared for it to go the wrong way. 578 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 2: I was prepared for it to go the wrong way. 579 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 2: And the moment I was acquitted, I lost it. In fact, 580 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 2: I lost it so hard that people who were escorting 581 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 2: me thought, like the police thought that I had misunderstood 582 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 2: the verdict. They were like trying to tell me, no, 583 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 2: you got to quit it, and I was like, I know. 584 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:57,479 Speaker 2: And that was the moment of like, oh my god, 585 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 2: it's over. And the great irony of that is that 586 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 2: it wasn't over. And I entered into a whole new 587 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 2: version of this labyrinth where I thought I had got out, 588 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 2: and yet here's this yet another four years of labyrinth 589 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 2: ahead of me. And like the sort of true moment 590 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,479 Speaker 2: of feeling like I'm no longer being hunted anymore was 591 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 2: after I was definitively acquitted by the Italian Supreme Court. 592 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 2: Throughout my entire trial, when everything was just getting worse 593 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 2: and worse and worse, I kept believing that it was 594 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 2: inevitable that I was going to be found innocent, because 595 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 2: I was like, there's just some horrible misunderstanding and eventually 596 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,239 Speaker 2: the truth is going to come out. The jury's going 597 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 2: to see through all this bullshit that the prosecution is saying, 598 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 2: and I'm going to be released. So I was convinced 599 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 2: the day that I was convicted that I was going 600 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 2: to be acquitted. And then once that happened and the 601 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 2: world turned upside down and everything I thought was true 602 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 2: about reality was turned upside down. I no matter how 603 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 2: good it was getting throughout my acquittal, my appeals trial 604 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 2: leading up to my acquittal, I was afraid to hope 605 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 2: because I couldn't allow myself to be crushed again. And 606 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 2: so even when there was like big news that like, 607 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 2: you know, the independent experts are calling bullshit on all 608 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 2: the prosecution's forensic evidence. I was afraid to hope because 609 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 2: I knew that, like I was innocent the first time, 610 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 2: like what stopped them from acquitting me, you know, last time, 611 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 2: So like for me, those are the hard moments. The 612 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 2: sort of true moment of feeling like I'm no longer 613 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 2: being hunted anymore was after I was definitively acquitted by 614 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 2: the Italian Supreme Court. And honestly, one of my first 615 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 2: true experiences was actually when I first met Chris. I 616 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,439 Speaker 2: was doing arts correspondence for a local newspaper. He wrote 617 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 2: his debut novel. I reviewed it for the paper, I 618 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,240 Speaker 2: asked for an interview. I interviewed him and his co author. 619 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 2: They were two best friends who wrote a novel together, 620 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,800 Speaker 2: and I had this great experience interviewing. We drank Scotch, 621 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 2: we watched Star Trek, We wandered around the neighborhood into 622 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 2: the night. And at the end of like hanging out 623 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 2: with these two guys who I'd never met before, Gavin, 624 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,399 Speaker 2: his best friend and co author, gave me this big 625 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 2: bear hug and Chris shook my hand and said we 626 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 2: should be friends, and I was like, oh my god, 627 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 2: I can just make friends with people again, Like I 628 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 2: can just like meet people and make friends now, Like 629 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 2: I don't have to hide anymore, have a normal life, right, 630 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 2: and like, you know, my life is not normal. But 631 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 2: I was restored that that feeling that like I'm no 632 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 2: longer being hunted, I no longer have to fear people 633 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 2: that I don't know in the same way anymore. 634 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: Another thing that occurs to me about this is to 635 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: have Civics classes taught to teach people about what are 636 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: the things we need to do, one of which is 637 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 1: jury participation, in jury selection. To use your story as 638 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: a kind of a of a template here, Let's say 639 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: that girl, let's say she slept with everybody in the 640 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: Perugia phone directory. That doesn't make her. 641 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 2: A murderer, doesn't make her a murderer. Yeah, I could 642 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 2: have been a professional dominatrix and it shouldn't have mattered 643 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 2: because the evidence wasn't there. 644 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's what bothers me. 645 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. I actually think Civics would be really really good 646 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 2: to teach in schools. And part of that civics course 647 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,760 Speaker 2: would be not just your civic responsibilities, but also your rights. 648 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 2: So I didn't know what my rights were going into 649 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 2: the interrogation room. I didn't know how to recognize that 650 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 2: I was being interrogated as a suspect. They certainly didn't 651 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 2: tell me that. They certainly refused me a lawyer costing that. 652 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 2: So you know, like, so there are a million ways 653 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 2: that we are set up to be ignorant in the 654 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 2: face of these bigger societal structures that have enormous power 655 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 2: over our individual lives. And I think that it's an 656 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 2: atrocity that we aren't more empowered with the knowledge of 657 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 2: how we have power over those structures and also how 658 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 2: those structures have power over us. 659 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 1: I'm always filled with joky versions of this, but I 660 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: have this feeling like, you get out of prison, you 661 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: do the four plus years in prison, and you could 662 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: have been in prison for decades, and you get out. 663 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 1: How is your relationship with your parents now? Because, like 664 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: my joke version, as you call your mom and go, Mom, 665 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 1: I really miss you. Can we have lunch and she's like, 666 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, baby, I have tennis tomorrow. Where are you 667 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: at with your parents now? 668 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 2: I mean we've always been super super close. Can I 669 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 2: talk about a joke though that I really appreciated that 670 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 2: first of all, I loved you on thirty Rock, and 671 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 2: one of the first nice jokes about me was on 672 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,759 Speaker 2: thirty Rock that I encountered. Oh, good God, maybe there's 673 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 2: some nice jokes out there, But most of the time 674 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 2: I found when I first came out, that people were 675 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 2: making jokes at my expense, of course, And the first 676 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 2: time that I heard a joke that was not at 677 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 2: my expense was Kristen on thirty Rock saying it's not 678 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 2: hard to be famous. Amanda Knox is famous for not 679 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:11,439 Speaker 2: killing someone, and that was like, Oh, you can make 680 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,240 Speaker 2: a joke and not at my expense, Thank you. 681 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: Thank you, Kristin Shaw. But things are good with your family, absolutely, 682 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,320 Speaker 1: and they appreciate you and hold you close because you 683 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: could be over there right now, in an alternate universe. 684 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,880 Speaker 1: You could be over there now, just really really struggling. 685 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And their lives all came to a stop when 686 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,320 Speaker 2: everything happened to me. So it's not like my life 687 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 2: was sort of trapped in a hole and theirs went on. 688 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 2: Like everyone in my family, their whole lives just came 689 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 2: to a stop. And this was especially difficult on my 690 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 2: younger sisters. I have three younger sisters and one of 691 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:47,959 Speaker 2: them was eight years old at the time has happened, 692 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,839 Speaker 2: another was thirteen, one was just going into college. Their 693 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 2: lives stopped, like everything, all my entire family became about 694 00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 2: saving Amanda. Save Amanda. And it wasn't until I was 695 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,800 Speaker 2: able to come home that we've all been able to 696 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 2: restart our lives. And of course we all live within 697 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,439 Speaker 2: walking distance of each other, and it's always been that way. 698 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: Have you been back to Italy? 699 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,240 Speaker 2: I have been back to Italy. So I was invited 700 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,839 Speaker 2: by the Italy Innocence Project, which did not exist while 701 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,359 Speaker 2: I was in prison, to come and speak at their 702 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 2: first ever annual conference about trial by Media. And I 703 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 2: felt that, like, of all of the ways to return 704 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 2: to Italy, that was the best way possible. Like, you know, 705 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 2: I had struggled with the idea of like how am 706 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 2: I going to go back and see the people who 707 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 2: supported me and thank them and like to try to 708 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 2: do that process. And I returned and the press called it, 709 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 2: you know, Amanda's familiar dance with the with the paparazzi, 710 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 2: and it's like, actually, I'm being assaulted by them, Like 711 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 2: I can't move because they're throwing themselves at me and 712 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:01,919 Speaker 2: my partner, the country. 713 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: That originated the word paparazzi, by the. 714 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 2: Way, yep, Yeah, that was a crazy experience. I had 715 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:08,760 Speaker 2: many many good moments. 716 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: Were you scared to go there? Were you terrified to 717 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:11,399 Speaker 1: go there? 718 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 2: I was absolutely scared to go there. 719 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:15,879 Speaker 1: You're braver than I. I would never go back there 720 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 1: again ever. 721 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 2: Well, Like the crazy thing is, these things happen everywhere, right, Like, 722 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 2: it's not like there's anywhere where you're safe from being judged, 723 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 2: you know, like misunderstood and misjudged and mistreated. 724 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: You're in as much danger here as you are in Peruja. 725 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. The one difference being that like here in the US, 726 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 2: there's more of a nuanced sentiment towards me, whereas in 727 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 2: Italy there's more of a She's the oj Simpson of 728 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,840 Speaker 2: Italy kind of thing. And I was surprised. Like the 729 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 2: big surprise that I had was when I gave my speech, 730 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 2: I was fully prepared to get arrested again, like to 731 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 2: like get shanked, get booed, like all of that. 732 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: Do you say shanked a prison term? You just put 733 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,920 Speaker 1: a chill in my back to get shanked. What a 734 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: reveal that was? You really did do four years in prison. 735 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,719 Speaker 2: Yeah. Shit, I was surprised when people gave me a 736 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 2: standing applause for my talk, and granted, these are the 737 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:20,879 Speaker 2: kind of people who are going to show up, who 738 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 2: are interested in criminal justice issues, who are interested in 739 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 2: the Italy Innocence Project, who are going to show up anyway, 740 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 2: so they I was a more accommodating audience, but I 741 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,280 Speaker 2: was not. I was not ready for it. Like I 742 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 2: I remember like being whisked away because I had have 743 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 2: personal security while I was there, Like it was, it 744 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 2: was not an easy process, and this like personal security 745 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 2: guard sort of whisked me away down the stairs, down 746 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 2: the hallway in underground where I had this like secret 747 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,799 Speaker 2: sort of underground dungeon bunker thing where I sort of 748 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 2: lived throughout the entire conference. And as soon as we 749 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 2: got down the stairs, he gave me a little squeeze 750 00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 2: and said parfeto and I just started bawling. And it 751 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 2: was a really great moment where I was like, Wow, 752 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 2: maybe I'll be given a chance, not even a second chance, 753 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,320 Speaker 2: like a chance. In Italy. 754 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: Journalist, public speaker and podcaster Amanda Knox by'm Alec Baldwin 755 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,320 Speaker 1: and this is here's the thing We're produced by Kathleen Russo, 756 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:28,280 Speaker 1: Carrie Donahue, and Zach McNeice. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. 757 00:42:28,719 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.