WEBVTT - From the Vault: Plant Memories, Part 1

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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<v Speaker 1>name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday,

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<v Speaker 1>so we are heading into the vault for an older

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<v Speaker 1>episode of the show. This one originally aired on April twelfth,

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty two, and it's part one of a series

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<v Speaker 1>we did on the question of whether plants have memories

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<v Speaker 1>or anything analogous to memories. I remember thinking the series

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<v Speaker 1>was really fascinating, so it should be a treat to

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<v Speaker 1>re explore. Here you go. Welcome to Stuff to Blow

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<v Speaker 1>Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, welcome to Stuff

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<v Speaker 1>to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Joe McCormick, and today we're going to be talking

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<v Speaker 1>about an interesting and perhaps hidden property of plants. And

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<v Speaker 1>to start us off, I wanted to read a selection

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<v Speaker 1>from one of the lesser known works by the English

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<v Speaker 1>Romantic poet Percy Bis Shelley. This is a poem called

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<v Speaker 1>the Sensitive Plant. Rob Am, I write that you'd never

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<v Speaker 1>heard of this one before. No, I you know, obviously

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<v Speaker 1>I've read a little bit of Shelley here and there,

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<v Speaker 1>but this must I'm assuming this is a deeper cut

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<v Speaker 1>it is. I think it was one of the final

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<v Speaker 1>things he wrote before his death, so this would have

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<v Speaker 1>been I think sometimes in the early eighteen twenties, and

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<v Speaker 1>it was published I believe as a standalone work at

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<v Speaker 1>least at some point it was. I was reading through

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<v Speaker 1>like a book version of it on that had been

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<v Speaker 1>scanned into Google Books, and every other page on it

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<v Speaker 1>was like washed out on the scan, so that was beautiful.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, this one's kind of weird. It's it's not

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<v Speaker 1>one of his best poems, but it has some really

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<v Speaker 1>great lines in it. So I just wanted to read

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<v Speaker 1>just a selection from it. It's too long to read

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<v Speaker 1>in full, but this is an exerpt from the end

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<v Speaker 1>of Part one of The Sensitive Plant by Percy BIS. Shelley.

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<v Speaker 1>For the Sensitive Plant has no bright flower. Radiance and

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<v Speaker 1>odor are not its dour. It loves even like love.

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<v Speaker 1>Its deep heart is full. It desires what it has

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<v Speaker 1>not the beautiful, the light winds, which from unsustaining wings

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<v Speaker 1>shed the music of many murmurings, the beams which dart

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<v Speaker 1>from many a star of the flowers whose hues they

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<v Speaker 1>bear afar, the plumid insects, swift and free, like golden

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<v Speaker 1>boats on a sunny sea, laden with light and odor,

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<v Speaker 1>which pass over the gleam of the living grass, The

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<v Speaker 1>unseen clouds of the dew, which lie like fire in

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<v Speaker 1>the flowers till the sun rides high, then wander like

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<v Speaker 1>spirits among the spheres, each cloud faint with the fragrance

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<v Speaker 1>it bears, The quivering vapors of dim noontide, which like

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<v Speaker 1>a sea over the warm earth, glide in which every

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<v Speaker 1>sound and odor and beam move as reeds in a

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<v Speaker 1>single stream, each and all, like ministering angels, were for

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<v Speaker 1>the sensitive plant, sweet joy to bear, whilst the lagging

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<v Speaker 1>hours of the day went by like windless clouds over

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<v Speaker 1>a tender sky, And when evening descended from heaven above,

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<v Speaker 1>and the earth was all rest, and the air was

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<v Speaker 1>all love and delight, though less bright was far more deep,

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<v Speaker 1>and the day's veil fell from the world of sleep,

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<v Speaker 1>and the beasts and the birds and the insects were

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<v Speaker 1>drowned in an ocean of dreams without a sound, whose

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<v Speaker 1>waves never mark, though they ever impressed the light sand

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<v Speaker 1>which paves it consciousness only overhead. The sweet nightingale ever

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<v Speaker 1>sang more sweet as the day might fail, and snatches

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<v Speaker 1>of its elysien chant were mixed with the dreams of

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<v Speaker 1>the sensitive plant. Ah, very nice. Yeah, so I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think it's one of Percy's best poems. Like I was saying,

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<v Speaker 1>the rhythms a little too regular and singsongy. Sometimes. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the rhymes are a little obvious, you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>rhyming love with above and all that. You could imagine

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<v Speaker 1>like a an eighties rat bait thrown in the background

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<v Speaker 1>some of those, or this could be a song like

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<v Speaker 1>every Rose has its Thorn, you know, a monster ballad.

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<v Speaker 1>But there are also lines. I really love the dew

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<v Speaker 1>which lies like fire and the flowers, and the nighttime

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<v Speaker 1>as an ocean paved under with the sands of consciousness.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's esthetic qualities aside. I think it's really interesting

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<v Speaker 1>that Percy is suggesting, in his unorthodox and emotionally charged

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<v Speaker 1>view of the world, that this particular plant, the sensitive plant,

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<v Speaker 1>which is a species of plant, may somehow have a

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<v Speaker 1>kind of humanity of its own, like a soul or

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<v Speaker 1>a mind, or, as I believe he implies later in

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<v Speaker 1>the poem, an afterlife. So you might wonder why would

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<v Speaker 1>he say that about this species of plant, which he

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<v Speaker 1>acknowledges is not a particularly beautiful flower. It's it's a mimosa,

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<v Speaker 1>so it's got a little pink, puffball kind of thing. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I think the answer is actually tied to some of

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<v Speaker 1>the biological qualities of the sensitive plant as a species.

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<v Speaker 1>So the sensitive plant is one of the mani names

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<v Speaker 1>of Mimosa pudica, pudica being Latin for chaste or modest,

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<v Speaker 1>shamefaced or bashful. And this is a flowering plant in

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<v Speaker 1>the family Fabasi, which is the pea or lagume family,

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<v Speaker 1>which means yes, this plant is a cousin of the

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<v Speaker 1>common being. So we are we are dealing in bean

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<v Speaker 1>can today, we're getting into into supernatural territory then, oh boy.

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<v Speaker 1>Mimosa pudica is native to South and Central America and

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<v Speaker 1>the Caribbean, though since transatlantic contact it has spread to

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<v Speaker 1>all other parts of the world. I think it's pervasive

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<v Speaker 1>throughout the tropics, and it's also known by tons of

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<v Speaker 1>different names. It's called the humble plant, the shame plant,

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<v Speaker 1>the touch me not, and all of these names connect

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<v Speaker 1>to the most striking feature of this species, which is

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<v Speaker 1>that it is a plant that recoils when touched. And

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<v Speaker 1>this is one of a handful of examples of rapid

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<v Speaker 1>movement in the plant kingdom, movement on the timescale that

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<v Speaker 1>we would normally associate only with animals. So, if you

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<v Speaker 1>want to picture it, the sensitive plant is a spiny

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<v Speaker 1>little shrub that grows up to about a foot off

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<v Speaker 1>the ground. It has these pink flower puffs and small

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<v Speaker 1>forking branches with compound leaves. So to picture the leaves

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<v Speaker 1>of this plant, they are the ones that kind of

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<v Speaker 1>like a feather, you know, with a stalk running up

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<v Speaker 1>the middle, and then lots of tiny, little pinile leaflets

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<v Speaker 1>shooting out from that middle stalk, parallel to each other

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<v Speaker 1>and perpendicular to the stalk, like the teeth of a comb,

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<v Speaker 1>or like the barbs of a feather. And to see

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<v Speaker 1>the sensitive plant in action, all you need to do

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<v Speaker 1>is touch a finger on one of these branches, and

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<v Speaker 1>suddenly what happens is the leaflets all fold inward like

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<v Speaker 1>a closing suitcase. And then sometimes even the branch or

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<v Speaker 1>the stalk that they're on will droop away, the stimulus

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<v Speaker 1>will droop down. From what I can tell, there is

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<v Speaker 1>not yet a full consensus on the main function of

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<v Speaker 1>this shrinking behavior in the wild, like, why does it

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<v Speaker 1>do that? But botanists have long suspected that it's some

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<v Speaker 1>kind of defensive action by the plant to protect its

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<v Speaker 1>leaves from grazing herbivores or insects. And this could actually

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<v Speaker 1>work in multiple ways. So one of them is that

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<v Speaker 1>maybe it works by physically moving the leaves away from

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<v Speaker 1>a grazer. You know, something comes, spides, it's munching on

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<v Speaker 1>the leaves, and this causes the leaves to kind of

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<v Speaker 1>pull away from the mouth. Or it could work by

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<v Speaker 1>hiding the leaves so you know, it is disturbed something

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<v Speaker 1>is around, it might be trying to eat the plant,

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<v Speaker 1>and by closing up it makes it less obvious where

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<v Speaker 1>the leaves are. Yeah, and I guess one can imagine

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<v Speaker 1>this working within the context of a you know, an

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<v Speaker 1>enormous grazing animal that is eating a lot of plants.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's maybe not gonna opt to really get particular

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<v Speaker 1>about this one if this one has made itself smaller,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, retreated into you know, amidst other plants, et cetera,

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<v Speaker 1>Like it's just going to keep eating whatever is readily

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<v Speaker 1>available to eat, right, But I think there's also a

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<v Speaker 1>focus on insects maybe insects or also the reason it

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<v Speaker 1>does this, and it could also work maybe by startling

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<v Speaker 1>a predator like an insect or grazing her before because

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<v Speaker 1>of course plants don't usually move rapidly like animals do.

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<v Speaker 1>So you know, if you're an insect or whatever that's

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<v Speaker 1>grazing and then suddenly there is movement on the timescale

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<v Speaker 1>of animal movement in your in your vicinity, that might

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<v Speaker 1>startle you and send you on the run. Yeah, on

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<v Speaker 1>the timescale of animal movement. That's that's key. Because of course,

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<v Speaker 1>the other main plant we think of in terms of

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<v Speaker 1>this is the venus fly plant, which you know, we'll

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<v Speaker 1>come back to, uh that. You know, that is a

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<v Speaker 1>plant that is acting aggressively on the timescale of of

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<v Speaker 1>of animals in an attempt to capture set an. But

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<v Speaker 1>here we see the reverse. Here we see something that

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<v Speaker 1>is that is acting, you know, defensively, that is moving

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<v Speaker 1>away from us, that is not saying I want to

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<v Speaker 1>touch you and envelop you, but I would rather not

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<v Speaker 1>touch you at all. Yes, I would rather not. I

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<v Speaker 1>would prefer not to. Yeah. So usually after a sensitive

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<v Speaker 1>plant closes up its leaflets and droops away, it will

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<v Speaker 1>reopen within some short time period, maybe only a few seconds,

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes a few minutes, but it doesn't take long. It'll

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<v Speaker 1>it'll open back up, get those leaves out there again,

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<v Speaker 1>and start all over. And the sensitive plant also has

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<v Speaker 1>a circadian rhythm to its closure, because it will close

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<v Speaker 1>its leaves in the darkness and then reopen them in

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<v Speaker 1>the daylight. Now, I found a wonderful post on j

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<v Speaker 1>Store Daily by Rebecca Friedel about the history of Mimosa

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<v Speaker 1>putica and also a similar Old World plant called Biophytum sensitivum,

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<v Speaker 1>which is actually not a close relative of the sensitive plant,

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<v Speaker 1>but does almost exactly the same thing with its leaves.

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<v Speaker 1>So it looks like this would be a case of

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<v Speaker 1>convergent evolution. But this article points to the work of

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<v Speaker 1>a sixteenth century Portuguese naturalist living in India named Christo

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<v Speaker 1>baal Acosta, who authored a book in fifteen seventy eight

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<v Speaker 1>called Tractado de las Drogas e Medicinas de las Indias

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<v Speaker 1>Orientales or Treatise on the Drugs and Medicines of the

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<v Speaker 1>East and East Indies. I really wanted to find an

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<v Speaker 1>English translation of this so I could quote it directly,

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<v Speaker 1>because it sounds like it's a hoot, but I could not,

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<v Speaker 1>So I'm going to have to rely on a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of secondhand summaries, including a Friedel's article here. But anyway,

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<v Speaker 1>in this book by Christo Baal Acosta in the sixteenth century,

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<v Speaker 1>he describes a plant among the medicinal herbs of India

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<v Speaker 1>called the yerba della more or the herb the herb

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<v Speaker 1>of love? Do you ever say herb with the H pronounced? Sometimes?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm afraid I'm going to keep doing that. Yeah, sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>it slips out. Yeah, I don't know why. I try

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<v Speaker 1>to fix this in my brain by like saying the

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<v Speaker 1>name herb without the H pronounce. So like I go,

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<v Speaker 1>I said, herb Herbert Hoover, Herbert Hoover. That'llfens it. Well, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean it's easy to fall into because herbivore, herbivorec Anyway,

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<v Speaker 1>why the herb of love? Why would it be called

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<v Speaker 1>the herb of love? Well? Acosta says that, according to

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<v Speaker 1>an Indian physician he talked to, the herb of love

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<v Speaker 1>was a potent seduction drug with a one hundred percent

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<v Speaker 1>success rate never fails. And after this passage, Acosta has

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<v Speaker 1>an aside to assure readers of this medicinal catalog that

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<v Speaker 1>he definitely never personally tried to use the sex herb, never,

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<v Speaker 1>not once. Probably a good thing considering that other more

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<v Speaker 1>well known sex herbs, if you will, are you know

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<v Speaker 1>essentially poisons? Right? But aside from the dubious allegations about

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<v Speaker 1>Cupid's aero type powers, this plant, the Herb of Love

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<v Speaker 1>is remarkable for its ability to close its leaves rapidly,

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<v Speaker 1>moving at the speed of an animal recoiling from a

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<v Speaker 1>needle prick. And I was looking at another source which

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<v Speaker 1>mentions Acosta. This is by JF. Veldkamp called Notes on

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<v Speaker 1>Biophytom of the Old World, published in Taxon in nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>eighty nine. I cite this just because Veldkamp tells a

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<v Speaker 1>story that Acosta claimed he knew of a philosopher in Malabar,

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<v Speaker 1>so region along the southwest coast of India. A philosopher

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<v Speaker 1>who lived in Malabar who was so tortured by the

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<v Speaker 1>mystery of the Herb of Love's rapid movement that he

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<v Speaker 1>literally lost his mind trying to study it. He was like,

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<v Speaker 1>how does it move? And that was it for him.

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<v Speaker 1>No word on whether that guy ever used it for

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<v Speaker 1>Cupid zero type purposes. Yeah, because again, and this will

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<v Speaker 1>going to be something that will will discuss later as well.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean it's it's acting in a way that other

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<v Speaker 1>plants do not act. It seems unnatural, right, I mean

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<v Speaker 1>if I had never seen a rapidly moving plant before

0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.520
<v Speaker 1>and I just stumbled across one of these in the

0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:03.640
<v Speaker 1>wild saw it folding up like that, I would be

0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:06.120
<v Speaker 1>freaked out. I don't know what to think of this.

0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:09.040
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's hard to imagine because I grew up

0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:13.040
<v Speaker 1>with venus flytraps, you know, Like I remember when I

0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:15.880
<v Speaker 1>was a kid and I would have like one of

0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.760
<v Speaker 1>those really boring weekend days where my mom wanted to

0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:22.000
<v Speaker 1>go to the plant nursery and get some plants around

0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:25.000
<v Speaker 1>the house. And I think my consolation there was that

0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:28.480
<v Speaker 1>a couple of times I got a little potted venus flytrap. Yeah.

0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.320
<v Speaker 1>They're pretty fun little plants. They always have a huge

0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:36.040
<v Speaker 1>container of them out at the at the Bananical Garden

0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:39.160
<v Speaker 1>in Atlanta for the kids to interact with and inevitably

0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:42.840
<v Speaker 1>stick little sticks into their into their their their mouths,

0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.240
<v Speaker 1>if you will. Right, so, we know about that one.

0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:47.800
<v Speaker 1>But if you're previously unfamiliar with a plant like that,

0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:51.200
<v Speaker 1>or or one of these leaf closing plants like Mimosa

0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:56.520
<v Speaker 1>pudica or biophytum. I imagine it would be shocking. Yeah,

0:13:56.520 --> 0:14:01.680
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we are hardwired really to topact that sudden

0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:05.679
<v Speaker 1>movement in the grass might be something dangerous. It might

0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:07.959
<v Speaker 1>be a snake, for example, Like, that's the first place

0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:10.280
<v Speaker 1>my mind goes. If I'm on a walk and there's

0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.120
<v Speaker 1>some sort of rustling in the bushes, it might be

0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:16.280
<v Speaker 1>a snake, or it's something like a chipmunk or a squirrel.

0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:18.760
<v Speaker 1>Probably not a squirrel because they're a bit bolder, but

0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:22.560
<v Speaker 1>certainly the snake is never far from one's mind. Very true.

0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:26.720
<v Speaker 1>So anyway, for several centuries there was confusion about how

0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:30.080
<v Speaker 1>to taxonomize this plant that Christal ball Acosta was talking about,

0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.960
<v Speaker 1>the Herb of Love, and Freedell points to an eighteen

0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:37.200
<v Speaker 1>twenty five volume of the Botanical Register which says, hey,

0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.920
<v Speaker 1>we know about this plant from South America called the

0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:43.800
<v Speaker 1>Mimosa pudica. It does that leaf shutting thing. So maybe

0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.680
<v Speaker 1>this herb of love that Acosta is talking about in

0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.720
<v Speaker 1>India in the sixteenth century is actually the same plant.

0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.320
<v Speaker 1>After all, it does seem that pretty quickly after transatlantic contact,

0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:58.640
<v Speaker 1>the mimosa spread all around the globe. But now that

0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:00.840
<v Speaker 1>doesn't seem to be the case. Botton are pretty clear

0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:03.280
<v Speaker 1>that the herb of love was actually this other species

0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:07.840
<v Speaker 1>I mentioned a minute ago, Biophytum sensitivum and Freedel rights.

0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:11.640
<v Speaker 1>This was funny quote. Perhaps the erotic claims Acosta made

0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:14.560
<v Speaker 1>so enthralled some that they failed to turn the page

0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:18.520
<v Speaker 1>to the next entry on Erba mimosa, a likely description

0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:22.440
<v Speaker 1>of the actual mimosa putica. Do your homework, guys, come on.

0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:26.800
<v Speaker 1>But anyway, I was thinking about this mechanism, so immediately

0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:29.760
<v Speaker 1>when I see a plant with rapid movement like this,

0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.960
<v Speaker 1>the leaf closing behavior, I wonder how on earth does

0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:36.440
<v Speaker 1>it do that? Because, of course we can move rapidly,

0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:38.400
<v Speaker 1>but we can only do that because we have a

0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:43.280
<v Speaker 1>nervous system and a muscular skeletal system muscles. Plants don't

0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:45.480
<v Speaker 1>have either one. There are no muscles and a plant.

0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:50.520
<v Speaker 1>So what mechanism could a plant use to contract on

0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:54.160
<v Speaker 1>the order of seconds. Well, scientists have actually figured out

0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:57.680
<v Speaker 1>the answer to this one. The types of movement on

0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.040
<v Speaker 1>display in the sensitive plant and the rapid moving plants

0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:06.720
<v Speaker 1>like the venus flytrap are known as seismoonastic movements, and

0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:11.040
<v Speaker 1>these are an example of a bigger category of nastic movements,

0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.760
<v Speaker 1>which can be defined by their difference from another type

0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:17.440
<v Speaker 1>of plant movement called tropisms. Now, tropisms, I think we've

0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:21.080
<v Speaker 1>all seen in action. You know what this is? View

0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:24.680
<v Speaker 1>ever had house plants? A tropism is growth in a

0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:29.640
<v Speaker 1>specific direction based on an external stimulus. So plants will

0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:33.000
<v Speaker 1>grow toward a light source. In fact, right in front

0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:35.280
<v Speaker 1>of me. Right now, I have a potted plant here

0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:39.520
<v Speaker 1>on my desk, and over time its leaves all start

0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.880
<v Speaker 1>reaching out for the lamp next to it, until I

0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.800
<v Speaker 1>turn the pot around, and then gradually they all start

0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:50.080
<v Speaker 1>to hook back in the opposite direction. And it just

0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.000
<v Speaker 1>now struck me for the first time. That might sound

0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:54.040
<v Speaker 1>kind of cruel, like I'm toying with it, but I

0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:57.000
<v Speaker 1>really don't think the plant's feelings are hurt. Another example

0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:01.320
<v Speaker 1>this would be trees seeing to grow around up power lines. Sure, yeah,

0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:06.360
<v Speaker 1>So plants can grow in different directions responding to objects

0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:12.159
<v Speaker 1>or stimuli in their environments. Nastic movements, in contrast to tropisms,

0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:15.800
<v Speaker 1>are not oriented in the direction of a stimulus, but

0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:21.280
<v Speaker 1>rather are fixed reflexes that are determined by the plant's anatomy. So,

0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:25.520
<v Speaker 1>for example, a venus fly trap shows a nastic response.

0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.760
<v Speaker 1>It doesn't go off in a particular direction to catch

0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.680
<v Speaker 1>a fly, but rather, when it senses movement in its

0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:36.160
<v Speaker 1>trap area, the hinge closes. So it has a predetermined,

0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:40.639
<v Speaker 1>a directionally predetermined movement that is in keeping with the

0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:46.080
<v Speaker 1>plant's anatomy, not in an adaptable direction. And the sensitive

0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:49.159
<v Speaker 1>plant is another example of a nastic response. And I

0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:54.280
<v Speaker 1>think it's interesting to note that the stimulus direction dependent

0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:58.160
<v Speaker 1>movements of plants tend to be very slow, very very slow,

0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:01.320
<v Speaker 1>and based on growth. Well, the few plants that are

0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.600
<v Speaker 1>able to move rapidly in all cases that I'm aware of,

0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:08.480
<v Speaker 1>certainly in most cases their movement is constrained to these

0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:12.600
<v Speaker 1>directionally fixed reflexes. Now, of course, we animals have the

0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:15.440
<v Speaker 1>best of both worlds, right, We can move rapidly and

0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:19.080
<v Speaker 1>we have the flexibility to respond in whatever direction makes

0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:21.600
<v Speaker 1>sense given the stimulus. But you know that's because we're

0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:25.439
<v Speaker 1>different types of creatures, different anatomy, different energy requirements and

0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:35.760
<v Speaker 1>so forth. But okay, that's nastic movements now, seis monastic

0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:39.439
<v Speaker 1>movements are nastic movements that are triggered by touch or

0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:45.280
<v Speaker 1>by vibration. Now again without muscles. How it all this work?

0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:48.359
<v Speaker 1>How does the nastic movement actually happen? Well, here we

0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:50.919
<v Speaker 1>come to a really excellent new word I learned. The

0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:56.199
<v Speaker 1>word is terger spelled tur gr. It's a good like

0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.879
<v Speaker 1>a leather diaper, Barbarian name. But it also it is

0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.600
<v Speaker 1>a name for something that happens within plants. It's related

0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:06.479
<v Speaker 1>to the word turgid or turgidity, and so within plants

0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:10.639
<v Speaker 1>there is a principle called turger pressure. And one simple

0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:12.919
<v Speaker 1>way to think about turger pressure is that it is

0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:17.440
<v Speaker 1>like water pressure inside a plant. So you think about

0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:21.480
<v Speaker 1>the difference between a wilted flower baking dry in the sun.

0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.640
<v Speaker 1>You know it's parched, and you see it drooping over,

0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:27.640
<v Speaker 1>and then you think about what that flower does after

0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.400
<v Speaker 1>you water it. If things go well. Usually you give

0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:33.280
<v Speaker 1>a wilted plant water and its leaves and stems stops

0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.360
<v Speaker 1>sagging and they become rigid again. It stands straight up

0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:38.840
<v Speaker 1>the you know, the it's it's almost like it's inflated

0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.160
<v Speaker 1>like a balloon. Yeah, And in some plants it's it's

0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:45.480
<v Speaker 1>it's amazing the difference just a quick watering can have.

0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:49.800
<v Speaker 1>We have a linen bomb, and I always find that

0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:51.760
<v Speaker 1>that one among our plants is the first to just

0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.720
<v Speaker 1>immediately seem to give up the ghost and start wilting away.

0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:57.040
<v Speaker 1>But then you know, you give it enough water and

0:19:57.080 --> 0:19:59.920
<v Speaker 1>it's just back, just a bushy and full of fly

0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:02.600
<v Speaker 1>as ever totally. In fact, you might have even observed this,

0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:06.639
<v Speaker 1>not with a live plants, but giving some veggies in

0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:09.040
<v Speaker 1>the kitchen a soak or even just to wash. This

0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.119
<v Speaker 1>is a good trick for resurrecting what appeared to be

0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:15.040
<v Speaker 1>wilted salad greens that are past their prime. You might

0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:17.320
<v Speaker 1>think they're no good, you know, you got to toss them.

0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:21.200
<v Speaker 1>You would be surprised how salvageable some greens are after

0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:24.359
<v Speaker 1>a soak in cold water. Really like like spinach, the

0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:26.360
<v Speaker 1>surf of spinach. I don't know if I ever tried

0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:28.120
<v Speaker 1>it on spinach, but I've tried it on other types

0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:30.800
<v Speaker 1>of greens, like you know, arugula and things like that

0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.679
<v Speaker 1>that are you know, they're starting not not like if

0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:36.040
<v Speaker 1>they're getting slimy, you know, but if they're just like

0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:39.520
<v Speaker 1>they're clearly they're getting desiccated and wilted. It looks like, oh,

0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:40.919
<v Speaker 1>these are going to be no good. Soak them in

0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:42.800
<v Speaker 1>some cold water. They might come back to life and

0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:45.520
<v Speaker 1>be crisp again. Okay, I didn't know about this trick,

0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.359
<v Speaker 1>but now I will have to try this sometime. But anyway, So,

0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:53.240
<v Speaker 1>turger pressure is when a plant's cells are swollen with

0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:56.080
<v Speaker 1>water so that in the inside of the cells, within

0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.880
<v Speaker 1>the plasma membrane, the water pressure is actually pushing out

0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:03.840
<v Speaker 1>against the cell wall. And so when turger pressure is high,

0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:06.840
<v Speaker 1>the plant is said to be turgid, and so to

0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:09.680
<v Speaker 1>come back to the sensitive plant when the leaves are

0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:14.240
<v Speaker 1>touched or disturbed and electrochemical chain reaction is set off,

0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:17.159
<v Speaker 1>It's sensed by cells in the leaves and then it

0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:21.320
<v Speaker 1>sets off this electrochemical chain reaction that eventually ends in

0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:25.840
<v Speaker 1>water gushing out from so called motor cells at the

0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:29.800
<v Speaker 1>base of the leaflets that were previously turgid. So the

0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:33.520
<v Speaker 1>sudden loss of turger pressure the cells purging their water

0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:37.959
<v Speaker 1>contents causes the leaflet to move, basically to collapse at

0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:41.800
<v Speaker 1>it's hinge, and this is known as turger movement. So

0:21:41.880 --> 0:21:44.120
<v Speaker 1>in a strange way, you can think about it like

0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:49.000
<v Speaker 1>the plant moving by causing itself to very selectively and

0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:53.200
<v Speaker 1>rapidly wilt like a parched plant. Then over the course

0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:57.119
<v Speaker 1>of the following minutes, turger pressure can be restored and

0:21:57.200 --> 0:21:59.439
<v Speaker 1>the leaves go rigid again, and they go back to

0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:01.880
<v Speaker 1>their extended state. But to come to the next thing,

0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:07.840
<v Speaker 1>even more astonishing than the plant's ability to behave physically

0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:10.920
<v Speaker 1>in ways that seem more at home in animals with muscles,

0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:15.359
<v Speaker 1>is potential evidence that the Mimosa pudica may also, in

0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:19.760
<v Speaker 1>a qualified sense, behave mentally in ways that seem more

0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:24.400
<v Speaker 1>at home in animals with brains. Specifically, there has been

0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:28.040
<v Speaker 1>research arguing that this plant, an organism entirely without a

0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:31.680
<v Speaker 1>brain or without a nervous system, actually has its own

0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:36.960
<v Speaker 1>rudimentary form of memory. And we'll talk about one of

0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:40.000
<v Speaker 1>the studies allegedly showing this in a minute, But first

0:22:40.040 --> 0:22:42.240
<v Speaker 1>I thought it might be good to spend a few

0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:47.120
<v Speaker 1>minutes disentangling concepts about the alleged mental or cognitive properties

0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:50.119
<v Speaker 1>of plants, because I think once you get into this area,

0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:53.560
<v Speaker 1>you run a whole gamut of different types of claims

0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:59.080
<v Speaker 1>of extremely variable evidential backing. Yeah, and you also get

0:22:59.080 --> 0:23:04.720
<v Speaker 1>into into areas of confusion over like what constitutes animal

0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:08.080
<v Speaker 1>intelligence and human intelligence and so. Yeah, so I thought

0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:10.320
<v Speaker 1>it might be helpful to sort through some sort of

0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:14.359
<v Speaker 1>general ideas regarding the nature of plants in Western thought.

0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:19.440
<v Speaker 1>Fourth century BC thinker Aristotle, of course, casts along shadow,

0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:24.000
<v Speaker 1>and he wrote that plants have a vegetative soul or

0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:27.560
<v Speaker 1>two threpticon, which I believe just means the vegetable soul,

0:23:27.880 --> 0:23:30.520
<v Speaker 1>not to be confused with two megatherion, which means the

0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:34.560
<v Speaker 1>great beast in Greek and is of course a Celtic

0:23:34.600 --> 0:23:38.199
<v Speaker 1>Frost album. But I couldn't help but think of that

0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:41.120
<v Speaker 1>when I was reading about two threpticon. Yeah, a lot

0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:43.240
<v Speaker 1>of these well, so there were people in like the

0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:45.800
<v Speaker 1>nineteenth century and stuff who were very interested in the

0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:47.760
<v Speaker 1>sensitive plant, and I think a lot of them made

0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:50.919
<v Speaker 1>references back to Aristotle, like this is what Aristotle was

0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:53.680
<v Speaker 1>talking about. Plants have a soul, they can feel right,

0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:56.719
<v Speaker 1>but of course yes and no right, because they are

0:23:56.800 --> 0:23:59.040
<v Speaker 1>two important things to keep in mind about all of it.

0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:02.959
<v Speaker 1>First of all, he attributes nourishment and reproduction to the

0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:05.600
<v Speaker 1>plant soul, and we have to remember that the Greek

0:24:05.640 --> 0:24:10.160
<v Speaker 1>notion of a soul or suka is rather different than

0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:13.200
<v Speaker 1>modern or even early Christian notions of a soul. We're

0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:15.840
<v Speaker 1>not talking about like an inner ghost person that moves

0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:18.679
<v Speaker 1>on and has an afterlife, that sort of thing. This

0:24:18.760 --> 0:24:22.199
<v Speaker 1>would be more like the concept of a mind or

0:24:22.320 --> 0:24:24.800
<v Speaker 1>or would it be like the idea of an animating breath.

0:24:25.080 --> 0:24:27.720
<v Speaker 1>There are a lot of different ideas of things that

0:24:27.800 --> 0:24:32.040
<v Speaker 1>get translated into English as soul from the ancient world. Yeah.

0:24:32.040 --> 0:24:34.879
<v Speaker 1>I was reading about this in an excellent paper that

0:24:35.160 --> 0:24:38.120
<v Speaker 1>I will probably continue to refer to in this series

0:24:38.160 --> 0:24:42.160
<v Speaker 1>by Michael Martyr from twenty twelve in Plant Signal Behavior

0:24:42.240 --> 0:24:47.119
<v Speaker 1>titled Plant Intentionality and the Phenomenological Framework of Plant Intelligence.

0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:50.960
<v Speaker 1>And in this he writes that the soul in this context,

0:24:51.000 --> 0:24:55.560
<v Speaker 1>in Aristotle's context, is quote a set of active capacities

0:24:55.560 --> 0:25:00.000
<v Speaker 1>of an organism, not an invisible entity connected to the divine. Okay,

0:25:00.040 --> 0:25:01.880
<v Speaker 1>that makes sense. So the soul is sort of like

0:25:02.040 --> 0:25:06.600
<v Speaker 1>the essence of the organism. It's like what the form

0:25:06.720 --> 0:25:10.560
<v Speaker 1>of the organism apart from its physical body. Right. And

0:25:10.680 --> 0:25:14.640
<v Speaker 1>while the vegetative soul here is defined by nourishment and reproduction,

0:25:15.080 --> 0:25:19.400
<v Speaker 1>animals and humans additionally have capacities of sensation and rational

0:25:19.480 --> 0:25:23.720
<v Speaker 1>thought added atop these baser soul characteristics. Now, I think

0:25:23.760 --> 0:25:28.240
<v Speaker 1>an interesting division there is that, So it's attributing animals

0:25:28.240 --> 0:25:31.320
<v Speaker 1>and humans with sensation and rational thought. I think a

0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:33.399
<v Speaker 1>lot of people have made what seemed to me to

0:25:33.640 --> 0:25:40.120
<v Speaker 1>be pretty spurious claims about evidence for rational thought in plants.

0:25:40.520 --> 0:25:44.280
<v Speaker 1>But I would say it's completely uncontroversial that plants experience

0:25:44.320 --> 0:25:47.960
<v Speaker 1>a form of sensation. They can gather information about their environment,

0:25:48.000 --> 0:25:52.000
<v Speaker 1>and they do constantly. Yeah, but in Aristotle's hierarchy, you

0:25:52.080 --> 0:25:54.440
<v Speaker 1>have basically of animals, and then you have plants, and

0:25:54.480 --> 0:25:58.320
<v Speaker 1>they of minerals. And there's also this added caveat that

0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:02.000
<v Speaker 1>aspects of the vegetative soul continue on into forms that follow,

0:26:03.000 --> 0:26:05.679
<v Speaker 1>which which might not be all that helpful in what

0:26:05.720 --> 0:26:09.520
<v Speaker 1>we're thinking about here, but perhaps bears mentioning. Now, aristotle

0:26:09.560 --> 0:26:12.040
<v Speaker 1>shadow again is long, and we see his ideas carried

0:26:12.040 --> 0:26:16.560
<v Speaker 1>on into medieval Europe. Thirteenth century CE thinker Thomas Aquinas

0:26:16.560 --> 0:26:19.800
<v Speaker 1>wrote in Puma Theology that quote, the very fact that

0:26:19.880 --> 0:26:22.680
<v Speaker 1>the acts of the vegetative soul do not obey reason

0:26:23.040 --> 0:26:27.080
<v Speaker 1>shows that they rank lowest lowest, lower than minerals. Or

0:26:27.160 --> 0:26:30.000
<v Speaker 1>was he not lower than minerals? But I think it

0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:34.000
<v Speaker 1>was in reference to animals and of course humans. Yeah. Now,

0:26:34.080 --> 0:26:37.040
<v Speaker 1>one thing that that Martyr points out is that while

0:26:37.320 --> 0:26:40.840
<v Speaker 1>the Aristotle view here, you know, it kind of used

0:26:40.840 --> 0:26:44.120
<v Speaker 1>plants as baser and that they're only carrying out nourishment

0:26:44.160 --> 0:26:47.960
<v Speaker 1>and reproduction. But he writes that that's that's actually it's

0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:52.119
<v Speaker 1>actually quite impressive within the modern context of certainly planned

0:26:52.160 --> 0:26:57.720
<v Speaker 1>intelligence research, because these impulses nourishment and reproduction quote entail

0:26:57.840 --> 0:27:02.200
<v Speaker 1>complex decisions related to the avaiability of resources. Now that's

0:27:02.240 --> 0:27:05.760
<v Speaker 1>interesting because that could be on one hand, very true,

0:27:05.800 --> 0:27:09.199
<v Speaker 1>but also could easily be misinterpreted to lead people to

0:27:09.280 --> 0:27:11.800
<v Speaker 1>unjustified conclusions. And I want to get into a little

0:27:11.840 --> 0:27:14.520
<v Speaker 1>more disentangling on concepts in a minute here, but yeah,

0:27:14.560 --> 0:27:19.360
<v Speaker 1>flag that. Yes, Martyr also adds quote Additionally, plants express

0:27:19.440 --> 0:27:24.680
<v Speaker 1>almost all known neurotransmitters, confirming the extension of twothrepticon well

0:27:24.720 --> 0:27:29.040
<v Speaker 1>beyond the activities Aristotle and his followers allotted to them. Hence,

0:27:29.080 --> 0:27:32.880
<v Speaker 1>the lines of demarcation between the higher and the lower capacities,

0:27:33.080 --> 0:27:38.040
<v Speaker 1>between consciousness and non consciousness, and by implication, between biological

0:27:38.119 --> 0:27:42.600
<v Speaker 1>regna are not as rigid as classical thinkers believed. And

0:27:42.760 --> 0:27:45.080
<v Speaker 1>there are a few other strains of more modern thought

0:27:45.080 --> 0:27:48.720
<v Speaker 1>that Martyr shares He points out that, according to late

0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:53.520
<v Speaker 1>eighteenth and early nineteenth century German philosopher Hegel, plants are passive,

0:27:53.720 --> 0:27:58.920
<v Speaker 1>they have negative selfhood, and they lack quote an organismic whole. Okay,

0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:02.360
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what that means, but that's Hegel. Yeah,

0:28:02.000 --> 0:28:05.400
<v Speaker 1>not a not a plant fan. Nineteenth century English naturalist

0:28:05.440 --> 0:28:07.600
<v Speaker 1>Charles Darwin, on the other hand, this I believe was

0:28:07.840 --> 0:28:11.000
<v Speaker 1>like a later thing that he wrote about. But he

0:28:11.040 --> 0:28:14.400
<v Speaker 1>had the root brain hypothesis that held that the root

0:28:14.440 --> 0:28:17.360
<v Speaker 1>apex of a plant served as a brain like oregon,

0:28:17.720 --> 0:28:21.199
<v Speaker 1>that was both sensitive and capable of navigating soil in

0:28:21.240 --> 0:28:24.120
<v Speaker 1>search of resources. Now, I think it might be going

0:28:24.160 --> 0:28:28.200
<v Speaker 1>a little overboard to call it brain like, but Charles

0:28:28.320 --> 0:28:31.679
<v Speaker 1>Darwin was clearly enthralled by plants like the venus flytrap,

0:28:31.800 --> 0:28:35.920
<v Speaker 1>Like he got really excited about what this means. And

0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:38.760
<v Speaker 1>maybe we can come back to Darwin in part two

0:28:38.800 --> 0:28:40.800
<v Speaker 1>of this because I think some of his ideas might

0:28:40.800 --> 0:28:42.640
<v Speaker 1>connect more to to some of the research we're going

0:28:42.680 --> 0:28:45.040
<v Speaker 1>to talk about later on. Yeah, it's my understanding, and

0:28:45.720 --> 0:28:47.760
<v Speaker 1>I believe the author mentions this that some of these

0:28:47.800 --> 0:28:52.240
<v Speaker 1>ideas that Charles Darwin had regarding this root brain hypothesis

0:28:52.280 --> 0:28:55.960
<v Speaker 1>like they've people have come back to them in modern

0:28:56.000 --> 0:28:59.520
<v Speaker 1>plant intelligence research and said, well, yeah, there's more to

0:28:59.560 --> 0:29:03.160
<v Speaker 1>this than the people of Darwin's day thought. Then there's

0:29:03.200 --> 0:29:06.720
<v Speaker 1>also a nineteenth century German philosopher, Frederick Nietsche, who is

0:29:06.840 --> 0:29:10.360
<v Speaker 1>very much I believe, inspired by Darwin. In this wrote

0:29:10.400 --> 0:29:13.640
<v Speaker 1>that a plant's nourishment and growth are expressions of its

0:29:13.880 --> 0:29:17.600
<v Speaker 1>will to power, or the wills whore mocked, which he

0:29:17.640 --> 0:29:22.040
<v Speaker 1>identifies as the core driving force behind human beings. Oh

0:29:22.120 --> 0:29:25.040
<v Speaker 1>my god, So this this potted plant in front of me,

0:29:25.160 --> 0:29:27.000
<v Speaker 1>when it reaches for the lamp and then I turn

0:29:27.040 --> 0:29:29.440
<v Speaker 1>it around, I am thwarting its will to power, but

0:29:29.640 --> 0:29:33.280
<v Speaker 1>I am like the naysaying crowd that it must rebel

0:29:33.360 --> 0:29:36.880
<v Speaker 1>against and show its might. Yeah, and every day you

0:29:36.920 --> 0:29:40.600
<v Speaker 1>don't kill it, you make it stronger. Right now. In

0:29:40.720 --> 0:29:43.240
<v Speaker 1>Eastern thought, there are of course strong traditions of all

0:29:43.240 --> 0:29:47.200
<v Speaker 1>of this, as discussed in, among other many sources, in

0:29:47.360 --> 0:29:52.400
<v Speaker 1>Richard Nespit's The Geography of Thought. China's Taoism and Japan's

0:29:52.600 --> 0:29:57.880
<v Speaker 1>Shintoism both emphasize the spirits of animals, plants, natural objects,

0:29:57.880 --> 0:30:01.720
<v Speaker 1>and artifacts. And for my part, I've been reading a

0:30:01.760 --> 0:30:05.080
<v Speaker 1>little bit about this um earlier when I was looking

0:30:05.320 --> 0:30:08.920
<v Speaker 1>for things to cover for artifact and monster fact episodes.

0:30:09.000 --> 0:30:12.360
<v Speaker 1>But you know, I don't want to steal any thunder

0:30:12.400 --> 0:30:16.360
<v Speaker 1>from some possible potential episodes long or short form about these.

0:30:16.400 --> 0:30:19.800
<v Speaker 1>But you know, we have strong folkloric, legendary, and mythological

0:30:20.920 --> 0:30:25.560
<v Speaker 1>concepts of plant animal hybrids, which, of course, with all hybrids,

0:30:25.600 --> 0:30:34.240
<v Speaker 1>they certainly perform various functions in symbolic, metaphoric and supernatural thought,

0:30:34.320 --> 0:30:38.480
<v Speaker 1>but they also raise the question inevitably of animalness in

0:30:38.560 --> 0:30:42.640
<v Speaker 1>plants and plantness in animals. You know, like you you

0:30:42.680 --> 0:30:46.080
<v Speaker 1>can't think of something like say a screaming man Drake,

0:30:46.760 --> 0:30:50.040
<v Speaker 1>or say the vegetable lamb of Targary. You know this

0:30:50.200 --> 0:30:53.280
<v Speaker 1>this sheeplike thing that is growing out of the ground

0:30:53.320 --> 0:30:56.080
<v Speaker 1>that is a plant but also seems like an animal,

0:30:56.080 --> 0:30:58.560
<v Speaker 1>Like you can't. I don't think you can really have

0:30:58.640 --> 0:31:01.320
<v Speaker 1>a concept like that without it's sort of by blurring

0:31:01.360 --> 0:31:05.080
<v Speaker 1>the lines, by invoking the hybrid, making you think about

0:31:05.200 --> 0:31:08.720
<v Speaker 1>the characteristics of the opposite side that are present in

0:31:08.880 --> 0:31:13.520
<v Speaker 1>this side. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I think several years

0:31:13.520 --> 0:31:16.680
<v Speaker 1>back we did an October episode called something like the

0:31:16.760 --> 0:31:21.000
<v Speaker 1>Killer Tree that was a Legends of Trees that would

0:31:21.000 --> 0:31:24.920
<v Speaker 1>eat people. It's a surprisingly common recurring motif, though apparently

0:31:24.960 --> 0:31:28.800
<v Speaker 1>has no basis in real biology. No, but I mean

0:31:28.840 --> 0:31:31.600
<v Speaker 1>certainly not at the not not on the the animal

0:31:31.640 --> 0:31:34.560
<v Speaker 1>time scale of things, but I guess on the plant

0:31:34.800 --> 0:31:36.800
<v Speaker 1>time scale of things. Yeah, you can get into more

0:31:36.880 --> 0:31:40.800
<v Speaker 1>nuanced discussions of plants eating people, plants eating human corpses

0:31:40.800 --> 0:31:43.600
<v Speaker 1>and that sort of thing, right, but not the active

0:31:43.640 --> 0:31:45.720
<v Speaker 1>predation like in that Oh it's that is like a

0:31:45.760 --> 0:31:48.320
<v Speaker 1>William freed Can movie about the killer tree that that

0:31:48.760 --> 0:31:53.720
<v Speaker 1>gobbles people up. Oh my gosh, I don't remember this one. Okay, yeah,

0:31:53.720 --> 0:31:56.320
<v Speaker 1>we'll have to revisit. But there, Yeah, there are clearly

0:31:56.360 --> 0:31:58.600
<v Speaker 1>a lot of killer trees and tree I mean you

0:31:58.640 --> 0:32:02.040
<v Speaker 1>have things like the ants, right, yea trees walking around

0:32:02.040 --> 0:32:05.960
<v Speaker 1>like humans. And yeah, all these concepts. They they they're

0:32:06.000 --> 0:32:10.200
<v Speaker 1>performing a number of different functions. But I think one

0:32:10.280 --> 0:32:12.440
<v Speaker 1>of them is that it inevitably makes you think about

0:32:12.480 --> 0:32:14.680
<v Speaker 1>about plants and animals, what do they have in common?

0:32:14.960 --> 0:32:18.040
<v Speaker 1>In what ways do they differ in? Indeed? Yeah, in

0:32:18.120 --> 0:32:27.440
<v Speaker 1>what ways might they be more alike than we often realize.

0:32:28.240 --> 0:32:31.600
<v Speaker 1>Another thing is that as we're going forward talking about

0:32:31.680 --> 0:32:36.640
<v Speaker 1>research potentially indicating something like a plant basis for memory

0:32:36.840 --> 0:32:39.600
<v Speaker 1>or learning. I think we also have to be very

0:32:39.600 --> 0:32:44.720
<v Speaker 1>careful because the whole the realm of plant, so called

0:32:44.720 --> 0:32:48.400
<v Speaker 1>plant cognition research, I think, has a history that is

0:32:48.440 --> 0:32:52.200
<v Speaker 1>filled with stuff that is not so great. Like there

0:32:52.200 --> 0:32:54.840
<v Speaker 1>are a number of different concepts regarding the hidden complexity

0:32:54.880 --> 0:32:58.160
<v Speaker 1>of plants that people seem to get confused with each other.

0:32:58.320 --> 0:33:01.720
<v Speaker 1>And this is unfortunate because these topics range from what

0:33:01.760 --> 0:33:04.880
<v Speaker 1>appears to me to be maybe controversial but at least

0:33:05.360 --> 0:33:08.479
<v Speaker 1>potentially evidence backed biology, and that would be things like,

0:33:08.520 --> 0:33:10.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, some of the memory research we're going to

0:33:10.440 --> 0:33:13.480
<v Speaker 1>talk about, all the way over to pure pseudoscience and

0:33:13.560 --> 0:33:17.000
<v Speaker 1>paranormal stuff. And just to give some quick flavor of

0:33:17.040 --> 0:33:20.080
<v Speaker 1>the latter end of that spectrum, I'm reminded of something

0:33:20.120 --> 0:33:22.920
<v Speaker 1>we talked about briefly in an episode that we did

0:33:22.960 --> 0:33:25.640
<v Speaker 1>a long time ago. Robie, remember when we did the

0:33:25.760 --> 0:33:29.040
<v Speaker 1>Science of Stranger Things at New York Comic Con. Yes,

0:33:29.160 --> 0:33:31.520
<v Speaker 1>I do remember this, So it was in the context

0:33:31.520 --> 0:33:34.880
<v Speaker 1>of that episode we were talking about government research into

0:33:34.960 --> 0:33:39.120
<v Speaker 1>psychic and paranormal phenomena during the Cold War, which absolutely

0:33:39.200 --> 0:33:43.320
<v Speaker 1>did happen, and the extent of it is hilarious. But

0:33:43.720 --> 0:33:47.280
<v Speaker 1>I read a couple of whole books about this. Of course,

0:33:47.440 --> 0:33:49.280
<v Speaker 1>one if you want to quick read that's very funny

0:33:49.440 --> 0:33:51.440
<v Speaker 1>is The Men Who Stare at Gohost by John Ronson.

0:33:51.840 --> 0:33:54.520
<v Speaker 1>But also there was a book by Annie Jacobson that

0:33:54.640 --> 0:33:58.280
<v Speaker 1>was a big, complete, sort of history of the Stanford

0:33:58.320 --> 0:34:02.240
<v Speaker 1>Research Institute and all of these normal government research projects

0:34:03.120 --> 0:34:06.200
<v Speaker 1>that were fueled by Cold War paranoia but looked into

0:34:06.240 --> 0:34:11.640
<v Speaker 1>They looked into things like remote viewing and telekinesis and

0:34:11.719 --> 0:34:15.600
<v Speaker 1>stuff like that, and unfortunately, I think a lot of

0:34:15.640 --> 0:34:19.279
<v Speaker 1>that was just was just tricks and poorly designed experiments.

0:34:19.360 --> 0:34:23.480
<v Speaker 1>But but but one brief episode from this, one of

0:34:23.480 --> 0:34:25.640
<v Speaker 1>the people we talked about in that episode was a

0:34:25.719 --> 0:34:31.120
<v Speaker 1>CIA interrogation expert named Cleave Baxter, who specialized apparently in

0:34:31.280 --> 0:34:36.000
<v Speaker 1>narcotic and hypnotism based interrogation techniques and then later in

0:34:36.080 --> 0:34:39.920
<v Speaker 1>the polygraph and according to a twenty thirteen New York

0:34:39.920 --> 0:34:43.000
<v Speaker 1>Times article I was reading about Baxter by Josh Eels,

0:34:43.920 --> 0:34:47.560
<v Speaker 1>Baxter developed a method for conducting polygraph sessions called the

0:34:47.680 --> 0:34:51.279
<v Speaker 1>Baxter zone comparison technique, which according to this article, is

0:34:51.280 --> 0:34:55.760
<v Speaker 1>still used in polygraph tests today. So cool. Anyway, later

0:34:55.840 --> 0:35:00.440
<v Speaker 1>in his career, Baxter quite famously became upset with the

0:35:00.480 --> 0:35:03.520
<v Speaker 1>idea that plants could read our minds, and he claimed

0:35:03.520 --> 0:35:07.279
<v Speaker 1>to show it with experiments. So the discovery of this

0:35:07.440 --> 0:35:10.440
<v Speaker 1>The story goes like this. One night in nineteen sixty six,

0:35:10.719 --> 0:35:13.839
<v Speaker 1>Baxter stayed up all night, he was drinking coffee, and

0:35:13.840 --> 0:35:16.920
<v Speaker 1>he got an amazing idea. He would hook a potted

0:35:16.960 --> 0:35:21.200
<v Speaker 1>plant up to a polygraph machine. I guess, I don't

0:35:21.239 --> 0:35:22.360
<v Speaker 1>know if he was going to see if it was

0:35:22.400 --> 0:35:25.319
<v Speaker 1>telling lies, or maybe you just I don't know. So

0:35:25.360 --> 0:35:30.759
<v Speaker 1>allegedly this plant was a quote corn plant or dressina fragrans, which,

0:35:30.800 --> 0:35:33.880
<v Speaker 1>in a confusing twist, is completely different from the plant

0:35:34.040 --> 0:35:37.240
<v Speaker 1>za maze, which is the grain plant that produces maize

0:35:37.360 --> 0:35:39.560
<v Speaker 1>or corn, the food. So this is called a corn plant,

0:35:39.600 --> 0:35:42.080
<v Speaker 1>but it's not the corn that would be planted in

0:35:42.120 --> 0:35:44.840
<v Speaker 1>as a crop. The corn plant had been a gift

0:35:44.880 --> 0:35:48.120
<v Speaker 1>from his secretary, intended to brighten up his office, which

0:35:48.160 --> 0:35:49.840
<v Speaker 1>I have not seen pictures of. I don't know what

0:35:49.960 --> 0:35:52.240
<v Speaker 1>was in there, but I'm imagining a kind of dungeon

0:35:52.360 --> 0:35:55.280
<v Speaker 1>full of chairs with leather straps on them and needles

0:35:55.360 --> 0:35:57.880
<v Speaker 1>full of quack truth serums. So yeah, you can imagine

0:35:57.880 --> 0:36:00.480
<v Speaker 1>some plants would be nice, Yeah, you want to get

0:36:00.520 --> 0:36:03.439
<v Speaker 1>some corn down there. So from here I just want

0:36:03.440 --> 0:36:08.160
<v Speaker 1>to quote from the article by Eels summarizing this experiment. Quote.

0:36:08.560 --> 0:36:13.480
<v Speaker 1>In human subjects, a polygraph measures three things pulse, respiration rate,

0:36:13.520 --> 0:36:17.839
<v Speaker 1>and galvanic skin response otherwise known as perspiration. If you're

0:36:17.840 --> 0:36:20.439
<v Speaker 1>worried about being caught in a lie, your levels will

0:36:20.480 --> 0:36:24.600
<v Speaker 1>spike or dip. Baxter wanted to induce a similar anxiety

0:36:24.719 --> 0:36:27.520
<v Speaker 1>in the plant, so he decided to set one of

0:36:27.520 --> 0:36:30.839
<v Speaker 1>its leaves on fire, But before he could even get

0:36:30.880 --> 0:36:34.600
<v Speaker 1>a match, the polygraph registered an intense reaction on the

0:36:34.640 --> 0:36:38.040
<v Speaker 1>part of the dressina. To Baxter, the implication was as

0:36:38.120 --> 0:36:42.080
<v Speaker 1>indisputable as it was unbelievable. Not only had the plant

0:36:42.160 --> 0:36:48.320
<v Speaker 1>demonstrated fear, it had also read his mind. So Baxter

0:36:48.400 --> 0:36:51.680
<v Speaker 1>became convinced that plants had psychic powers, consisting of a

0:36:51.760 --> 0:36:55.799
<v Speaker 1>sensibility that he called primary perception, which they could use

0:36:55.840 --> 0:36:59.439
<v Speaker 1>to read our minds and emotions from Afar and upon

0:36:59.520 --> 0:37:01.960
<v Speaker 1>this disc every he did what any responsible seeker of

0:37:02.000 --> 0:37:05.520
<v Speaker 1>the truth would do. He went straight to the popular media,

0:37:06.000 --> 0:37:08.239
<v Speaker 1>and there was a book based on his claims, and

0:37:08.280 --> 0:37:12.239
<v Speaker 1>apparently he did a TV spot, multiple TV spots, but

0:37:12.320 --> 0:37:14.640
<v Speaker 1>I like Johnny Carson and stuff, but one of them

0:37:14.680 --> 0:37:17.440
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to note was, apparently with Leonard Nimoy, was

0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:19.600
<v Speaker 1>this in search of. I don't know if the timeframe

0:37:19.719 --> 0:37:21.280
<v Speaker 1>is right for that. I don't know if the timeframes

0:37:21.320 --> 0:37:23.400
<v Speaker 1>right either, but yeah, Ansling makes me think of in

0:37:23.400 --> 0:37:28.120
<v Speaker 1>search of. And unfortunately, skeptical scientists were unable to reproduce

0:37:28.160 --> 0:37:30.560
<v Speaker 1>his results. They tried to do the same thing and

0:37:30.680 --> 0:37:34.880
<v Speaker 1>got nothing. But if you poke around about this on

0:37:34.920 --> 0:37:39.320
<v Speaker 1>the internet, you will find many believers even today, still

0:37:39.320 --> 0:37:43.399
<v Speaker 1>overflowing with faith in Baxter's claims. It's one of those

0:37:43.440 --> 0:37:46.759
<v Speaker 1>ideas that lots of people just seemed to like. It

0:37:46.800 --> 0:37:51.120
<v Speaker 1>feels really true and wholesome and good to believe. Yes,

0:37:51.280 --> 0:37:54.759
<v Speaker 1>plants can think, they can feel, they can know what

0:37:54.800 --> 0:37:56.799
<v Speaker 1>we're thinking if we tell them, or maybe even if

0:37:56.800 --> 0:37:59.359
<v Speaker 1>we don't tell them, if we just think it really hard,

0:37:59.600 --> 0:38:03.640
<v Speaker 1>they can detect it somehow. But obviously there are there

0:38:03.640 --> 0:38:06.960
<v Speaker 1>are major problems if you're trying to put together a coherent,

0:38:07.000 --> 0:38:10.359
<v Speaker 1>scientifically informed worldview. First of all, I would say the

0:38:10.360 --> 0:38:13.760
<v Speaker 1>theoretical basis is weak. Like you know, we could always

0:38:13.800 --> 0:38:16.799
<v Speaker 1>discover something new, but it is not clear that there's

0:38:16.800 --> 0:38:19.919
<v Speaker 1>any kind of physical mechanism that could allow something like that.

0:38:20.480 --> 0:38:23.840
<v Speaker 1>And then the second part is just the empirical basis,

0:38:23.880 --> 0:38:26.879
<v Speaker 1>like the controlled experiments by skeptics don't find the same thing.

0:38:27.080 --> 0:38:30.680
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, this appears to be nonsense. I can't help

0:38:30.680 --> 0:38:34.520
<v Speaker 1>but wonder if okay, this experiment was sixty six. Frank

0:38:34.560 --> 0:38:37.640
<v Speaker 1>Herbert's Dune was first published in sixty five, and of

0:38:37.680 --> 0:38:40.799
<v Speaker 1>course has the very early on in the novel, has

0:38:40.840 --> 0:38:44.480
<v Speaker 1>the scene where we have the benijesra at test of

0:38:44.520 --> 0:38:47.360
<v Speaker 1>the box and the com jabbar the box, which of

0:38:47.400 --> 0:38:50.880
<v Speaker 1>course makes you feel like your hand is burning and

0:38:50.960 --> 0:38:54.680
<v Speaker 1>on fire. And here in this test behalf part of

0:38:54.680 --> 0:38:58.120
<v Speaker 1>the plant is actually caught on fire. Wow, that's interesting.

0:38:58.239 --> 0:39:01.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah. And the box is supposedly a kind of

0:39:01.360 --> 0:39:04.080
<v Speaker 1>polygraph of its own yeah yeah, yeah yeah, And of

0:39:04.160 --> 0:39:08.279
<v Speaker 1>course you have the benegestrate, yeah, truthsayers and so forth. Though,

0:39:08.320 --> 0:39:11.040
<v Speaker 1>I think in our episode on that did we both

0:39:11.040 --> 0:39:12.799
<v Speaker 1>come to the conclusion that we think that the real

0:39:12.840 --> 0:39:15.680
<v Speaker 1>power is the box actually does nothing and it's just

0:39:15.800 --> 0:39:19.640
<v Speaker 1>all it's all the reverend mother like she's the real test. Yeah.

0:39:19.680 --> 0:39:21.520
<v Speaker 1>I think it's ultimately unknown, but we did. I think

0:39:21.520 --> 0:39:24.200
<v Speaker 1>we both liked that idea the most. Yeah, it felt

0:39:24.200 --> 0:39:27.880
<v Speaker 1>the most herberty of the ideas. It's just a prop

0:39:28.920 --> 0:39:30.880
<v Speaker 1>But anyway, So to come back to all this, so

0:39:30.880 --> 0:39:33.200
<v Speaker 1>we're going to be talking about plant memory research. But

0:39:33.280 --> 0:39:35.160
<v Speaker 1>I think I want to be clear that if you

0:39:35.920 --> 0:39:38.279
<v Speaker 1>say that a plant could have such a thing as

0:39:38.320 --> 0:39:42.400
<v Speaker 1>a memory or an ability to learn, that is truly

0:39:42.480 --> 0:39:45.680
<v Speaker 1>surprising and fascinating. But it is not the same thing

0:39:46.320 --> 0:39:50.000
<v Speaker 1>as saying or showing that plants can quote think, that

0:39:50.080 --> 0:39:54.560
<v Speaker 1>plants are conscious, that plants have emotions, or that they

0:39:54.600 --> 0:39:57.359
<v Speaker 1>get upset when you say or do negative things around them,

0:39:57.840 --> 0:39:59.719
<v Speaker 1>all of which are claims that people have tried to

0:39:59.719 --> 0:40:01.560
<v Speaker 1>make over the years, but which seemed to me to

0:40:01.600 --> 0:40:05.200
<v Speaker 1>be lacking in evidential basis, with the possible exception of

0:40:06.080 --> 0:40:10.040
<v Speaker 1>quote thinking under some very broad or inclusive definitions of

0:40:10.320 --> 0:40:13.480
<v Speaker 1>what counts has thought. Yeah. Like Another area related to

0:40:13.560 --> 0:40:18.080
<v Speaker 1>this is the relationship between plants and sound. So can

0:40:18.160 --> 0:40:23.080
<v Speaker 1>plants respond to sound, Yes, they can, But can do

0:40:23.160 --> 0:40:27.480
<v Speaker 1>plants then benefit from listening to music? No, there's there's

0:40:27.480 --> 0:40:29.359
<v Speaker 1>no evidence for that. But I mean, this was an

0:40:29.360 --> 0:40:32.319
<v Speaker 1>idea that was very much in the zeitgeist, especially in

0:40:32.320 --> 0:40:36.520
<v Speaker 1>the nineteen seventies. That's where there was actually a wonderful

0:40:36.560 --> 0:40:40.359
<v Speaker 1>album that came out, an early electronic music album by

0:40:40.360 --> 0:40:43.560
<v Speaker 1>Mort Garson, who is a you know, early synth wizard

0:40:43.600 --> 0:40:46.000
<v Speaker 1>who did a lot of a number of different projects

0:40:46.040 --> 0:40:48.720
<v Speaker 1>under different names, but he put out this this album

0:40:48.760 --> 0:40:54.880
<v Speaker 1>titled Mother Earth's Plantasia, and it is supposed to be

0:40:55.000 --> 0:40:58.239
<v Speaker 1>music that you play for your house plants, and your

0:40:58.239 --> 0:41:02.000
<v Speaker 1>house plants then benefit from it. I don't think house

0:41:02.000 --> 0:41:04.200
<v Speaker 1>plants actually get nothing out of listening to this album,

0:41:04.400 --> 0:41:08.920
<v Speaker 1>but it's a wonderful ambient, experimental electronic album for humans.

0:41:09.239 --> 0:41:11.080
<v Speaker 1>I love this. I would say I'm all for playing

0:41:11.160 --> 0:41:13.320
<v Speaker 1>music for your plants. I don't think it does anything

0:41:13.360 --> 0:41:15.920
<v Speaker 1>for the plants, but playing music for your plants might

0:41:15.920 --> 0:41:19.000
<v Speaker 1>do something nice for you. Yeah, yeah, just like the plant.

0:41:19.040 --> 0:41:22.120
<v Speaker 1>The presence of the plants certainly can have a very

0:41:22.160 --> 0:41:26.320
<v Speaker 1>pleasant effect on the human psyche. So can ambient music.

0:41:26.480 --> 0:41:31.520
<v Speaker 1>So double up, have them both and benefit. But anyway,

0:41:31.600 --> 0:41:33.680
<v Speaker 1>before we end part one of the series, I did

0:41:33.719 --> 0:41:35.719
<v Speaker 1>want to look at at least one of the studies

0:41:35.719 --> 0:41:39.160
<v Speaker 1>that claims to find evidence for what you might call

0:41:39.320 --> 0:41:43.719
<v Speaker 1>memory learning or habituation in plants. And in the next

0:41:44.040 --> 0:41:47.719
<v Speaker 1>episode we'll come back and talk about some reaction, criticism,

0:41:47.719 --> 0:41:50.879
<v Speaker 1>and follow up of these types of ideas. So this

0:41:50.960 --> 0:41:54.160
<v Speaker 1>is not without its accompanying controversy, but I thought it

0:41:54.160 --> 0:41:56.320
<v Speaker 1>would be at least worthwhile to look at like what

0:41:56.800 --> 0:42:00.440
<v Speaker 1>the evidential claims of the recent research are. Earlier we

0:42:00.480 --> 0:42:03.960
<v Speaker 1>mentioned that scientists are actually not one hundred percent sure

0:42:04.239 --> 0:42:08.200
<v Speaker 1>why Mimosa pudica closes its leaves, though it is generally

0:42:08.200 --> 0:42:11.360
<v Speaker 1>believed to be some kind of defensive reaction to prevent

0:42:11.400 --> 0:42:14.960
<v Speaker 1>the leaves from being eaten by grazing herbivores or insects.

0:42:15.480 --> 0:42:18.719
<v Speaker 1>So if that's the case, you might wonder, well, why

0:42:18.760 --> 0:42:20.880
<v Speaker 1>don't the plants just keep their leaves folded up all

0:42:20.920 --> 0:42:23.480
<v Speaker 1>the time, then they'd be protected always. Why do they

0:42:23.480 --> 0:42:28.160
<v Speaker 1>have to do it rapidly suddenly? Well, because if they

0:42:28.160 --> 0:42:30.319
<v Speaker 1>were to keep their leaves closed all the time, the

0:42:30.400 --> 0:42:33.800
<v Speaker 1>plant would be drastically reducing its ability to collect sunlight

0:42:33.840 --> 0:42:37.239
<v Speaker 1>and feed through photosynthesis. And this is the classic risk

0:42:37.280 --> 0:42:40.080
<v Speaker 1>reward paradigm that we know well with all kinds of animals.

0:42:40.160 --> 0:42:43.200
<v Speaker 1>You have a small prey animal that might be much

0:42:43.239 --> 0:42:46.120
<v Speaker 1>safer if it stays in its cozy little burrow all day,

0:42:46.400 --> 0:42:49.880
<v Speaker 1>but if it never leaves, it foregoes opportunities to get food.

0:42:50.160 --> 0:42:52.239
<v Speaker 1>It needs to go out to do the things it

0:42:52.600 --> 0:42:55.000
<v Speaker 1>must do to sustain its life cycle and reproduce. So

0:42:55.040 --> 0:42:57.120
<v Speaker 1>it's got to find food, it's got to find mates,

0:42:57.160 --> 0:42:58.640
<v Speaker 1>and you know you're not going to get that just

0:42:58.680 --> 0:43:00.840
<v Speaker 1>sitting in your hole. You could say the same is

0:43:00.840 --> 0:43:03.920
<v Speaker 1>true for this plant. So the evolutionary logic that drives

0:43:03.960 --> 0:43:07.040
<v Speaker 1>the folding behavior of the leaves and the sensitive plant

0:43:07.480 --> 0:43:11.840
<v Speaker 1>will reward the folding in scenarios where it actually protects

0:43:11.840 --> 0:43:16.560
<v Speaker 1>the leaf from predation, but it will punish unnecessary folding,

0:43:16.600 --> 0:43:21.200
<v Speaker 1>which wastes precious opportunities to harvest the sunlight. And we've

0:43:21.200 --> 0:43:24.000
<v Speaker 1>already seen a couple of demonstrations of this balance. One

0:43:24.239 --> 0:43:27.680
<v Speaker 1>is that the leaves tend to fold at night time,

0:43:27.920 --> 0:43:30.719
<v Speaker 1>when there's no point in being exposed because there's no

0:43:30.800 --> 0:43:34.160
<v Speaker 1>sunlight to absorb. And another is that once the leaves

0:43:34.200 --> 0:43:37.800
<v Speaker 1>close in response to a seismic stimulus, they reopen again,

0:43:38.160 --> 0:43:40.480
<v Speaker 1>usually within a few minutes. They're ready to get back

0:43:40.520 --> 0:43:43.239
<v Speaker 1>to the buffet. But to continue the logic of this

0:43:43.400 --> 0:43:47.520
<v Speaker 1>risk reward balance, it would also obviously benefit the plant

0:43:47.600 --> 0:43:51.920
<v Speaker 1>if it had a mechanism for discriminating between a potentially

0:43:52.040 --> 0:43:55.920
<v Speaker 1>dangerous seismic stimulus and a harmless one. And you can

0:43:55.960 --> 0:43:59.800
<v Speaker 1>imagine scenarios in the wild where plants are repeatedly shaken

0:43:59.840 --> 0:44:02.960
<v Speaker 1>in some way or subjected to physical contact with objects

0:44:02.960 --> 0:44:07.040
<v Speaker 1>in the environment, maybe by wind or something in a

0:44:07.080 --> 0:44:09.560
<v Speaker 1>way that is not actually a threat to the plant,

0:44:09.560 --> 0:44:12.759
<v Speaker 1>where closing the leaflets every time that happened would be

0:44:12.800 --> 0:44:17.719
<v Speaker 1>pointless and harmful to survival. So do these plants have

0:44:17.760 --> 0:44:21.360
<v Speaker 1>a mechanism that allows them to discriminate like that? And

0:44:21.480 --> 0:44:24.399
<v Speaker 1>according to this following study, it looks like maybe they do. So.

0:44:24.480 --> 0:44:27.720
<v Speaker 1>This was a study published in Ecologia in twenty fourteen

0:44:27.800 --> 0:44:33.719
<v Speaker 1>by Monica Gagliano, Michael Renton, Marshall dip Chinsky, and Stefano

0:44:33.760 --> 0:44:38.120
<v Speaker 1>Mancuso called experience teaches plants to learn faster and forget

0:44:38.160 --> 0:44:41.560
<v Speaker 1>slower in environments where it matters. So the authors write

0:44:41.560 --> 0:44:44.840
<v Speaker 1>in their abstract quote, the nervous system of animals serves

0:44:44.840 --> 0:44:50.280
<v Speaker 1>the acquisition, memorization, and recollection of information. Like animals, plants

0:44:50.320 --> 0:44:53.600
<v Speaker 1>also acquire a huge amount of information from their environment,

0:44:53.920 --> 0:44:58.000
<v Speaker 1>Yet their capacity to memorize and organized learned behavioral responses

0:44:58.320 --> 0:45:02.879
<v Speaker 1>has not been demonstrated. In mimosa pudica the sensitive plant.

0:45:02.920 --> 0:45:06.520
<v Speaker 1>The defensive leaf folding behavior in response to repeated physical

0:45:06.560 --> 0:45:13.080
<v Speaker 1>disturbance exhibits clear habituation, suggesting some elementary form of learning.

0:45:13.960 --> 0:45:17.200
<v Speaker 1>So how do they actually demonstrate this, Well, they did

0:45:17.280 --> 0:45:20.400
<v Speaker 1>a series of experiments, but one of their models is

0:45:20.719 --> 0:45:25.040
<v Speaker 1>they took potted specimens of Mimosa pudica and they mounted

0:45:25.040 --> 0:45:28.480
<v Speaker 1>them on this contraption that would repeatedly drop the potted

0:45:28.520 --> 0:45:32.160
<v Speaker 1>plant a distance of fifteen centimeters onto a padded surface.

0:45:32.960 --> 0:45:37.680
<v Speaker 1>And these drops were organized into repeated sessions of multiple exposures.

0:45:38.000 --> 0:45:42.040
<v Speaker 1>And sure enough, the plants, after they were repeatedly exposed

0:45:42.080 --> 0:45:46.520
<v Speaker 1>to the same fifteen centimeter drop, started reopening their leaves

0:45:46.560 --> 0:45:50.640
<v Speaker 1>more quickly and eventually started ignoring the stimulus more or

0:45:50.719 --> 0:45:53.800
<v Speaker 1>less entirely, just keeping their leaves open during a drop.

0:45:54.640 --> 0:45:57.640
<v Speaker 1>And that's really interesting. It might seem to indicate that

0:45:57.680 --> 0:46:02.560
<v Speaker 1>the plant is becoming habituosed to this particular thing. It's like, okay,

0:46:03.200 --> 0:46:06.479
<v Speaker 1>being dropped fifteen centimeters is just something that happens. Now,

0:46:06.520 --> 0:46:08.160
<v Speaker 1>This is just how things are. I know what it

0:46:08.160 --> 0:46:10.799
<v Speaker 1>feels like. It doesn't hurt me. I'm over it, by

0:46:10.800 --> 0:46:13.680
<v Speaker 1>the way that I guess I am anthropomorphizing there, So

0:46:13.960 --> 0:46:16.880
<v Speaker 1>I don't mean to imply that it is actually reasoning

0:46:16.920 --> 0:46:21.239
<v Speaker 1>out in semantic logic like that, but that's to give

0:46:21.280 --> 0:46:24.400
<v Speaker 1>you the idea that it's somehow becoming habituated to something

0:46:24.440 --> 0:46:27.200
<v Speaker 1>that's happening over and over again without hurting it, and

0:46:27.239 --> 0:46:30.920
<v Speaker 1>it's just learning to ignore that thing. Now, there's an

0:46:30.920 --> 0:46:35.160
<v Speaker 1>obvious other explanation if this was all they discovered. What

0:46:35.280 --> 0:46:38.280
<v Speaker 1>if this was just the plant's leaf closing mechanism getting

0:46:38.280 --> 0:46:41.440
<v Speaker 1>worn out over time, It's just becoming exhausted and running

0:46:41.440 --> 0:46:43.520
<v Speaker 1>out of the juice that it needs to use to

0:46:43.520 --> 0:46:47.520
<v Speaker 1>close its leaves. Well, the researchers they thought about this,

0:46:47.560 --> 0:46:50.600
<v Speaker 1>and they controlled for this by introducing a new novel

0:46:50.680 --> 0:46:54.880
<v Speaker 1>stimulus after the plant became habituated. This was the shake,

0:46:55.160 --> 0:46:58.640
<v Speaker 1>so different from the drop, but it would also stimulate

0:46:58.680 --> 0:47:01.520
<v Speaker 1>the seismonastic closure or of the leaflets to shake the

0:47:01.560 --> 0:47:04.880
<v Speaker 1>potted plant. And they found that even when a plant

0:47:04.920 --> 0:47:08.960
<v Speaker 1>had become desensitized to the drop, apparently through habituation, it

0:47:08.960 --> 0:47:12.040
<v Speaker 1>would still close its leaves just like normal when given

0:47:12.040 --> 0:47:14.440
<v Speaker 1>a shake. So this would seem to help rule out

0:47:14.480 --> 0:47:17.960
<v Speaker 1>the idea that it's just the plant's leaf closure mechanisms

0:47:18.000 --> 0:47:21.839
<v Speaker 1>becoming exhausted by repeated use. Now, there are some more

0:47:21.880 --> 0:47:24.640
<v Speaker 1>interesting details from this one that we might get into

0:47:24.800 --> 0:47:28.240
<v Speaker 1>in the next part of this series. For example, they

0:47:28.320 --> 0:47:31.879
<v Speaker 1>found that apparently this habituation to the fifteen centimeter drop

0:47:31.920 --> 0:47:35.640
<v Speaker 1>was still present weeks later after the initial sessions, and

0:47:35.800 --> 0:47:40.960
<v Speaker 1>that it was variable and adaptable depending on the hostility

0:47:41.000 --> 0:47:43.920
<v Speaker 1>of the conditions, like the light conditions in which it

0:47:44.000 --> 0:47:46.520
<v Speaker 1>was happening. But maybe if we get into those, we

0:47:46.560 --> 0:47:48.239
<v Speaker 1>can do that in part two, because I think we

0:47:48.520 --> 0:47:50.799
<v Speaker 1>need to wrap up part one for now, but I'm

0:47:50.840 --> 0:47:53.359
<v Speaker 1>so excited all the things we get to talk about

0:47:53.400 --> 0:47:56.040
<v Speaker 1>when we come back next time. More research on plants

0:47:56.040 --> 0:47:59.920
<v Speaker 1>in memory. If plants do in fact possess some rudiment

0:48:00.160 --> 0:48:03.280
<v Speaker 1>reform of memory and learning, how what is the physical

0:48:03.320 --> 0:48:05.960
<v Speaker 1>basis of that, given of course that they don't have brains,

0:48:06.680 --> 0:48:10.000
<v Speaker 1>And what would that mean for our understanding of what

0:48:10.120 --> 0:48:13.919
<v Speaker 1>intelligence and its subdivided parts are. Yeah, yeah, this should

0:48:13.920 --> 0:48:16.319
<v Speaker 1>continue to be a fun exploration. And this is an

0:48:16.320 --> 0:48:19.080
<v Speaker 1>exploration that we've we've been talking about doing for years,

0:48:19.120 --> 0:48:21.799
<v Speaker 1>and I know we've had some listeners right in requesting

0:48:22.120 --> 0:48:25.120
<v Speaker 1>that we cover this topic. So it's great to finally

0:48:25.320 --> 0:48:28.040
<v Speaker 1>be able to dive in. All right, So we're gonna

0:48:28.040 --> 0:48:30.160
<v Speaker 1>go and close it out, but we'll be back next

0:48:30.200 --> 0:48:34.640
<v Speaker 1>time with more on this topic. In the meantime, if

0:48:34.640 --> 0:48:36.360
<v Speaker 1>you want to check out other episodes of Stuff to

0:48:36.400 --> 0:48:38.800
<v Speaker 1>Blow Your Mind, our core episodes come out on Tuesdays

0:48:38.800 --> 0:48:41.440
<v Speaker 1>and Thursdays, we have a rerun that comes out of

0:48:41.480 --> 0:48:45.400
<v Speaker 1>vault episode. On the weekend, we do listener mail on Monday,

0:48:45.440 --> 0:48:48.279
<v Speaker 1>we do a short form artifact or monster fact on Wednesday,

0:48:48.440 --> 0:48:51.680
<v Speaker 1>and on Friday we set aside most serious matters and

0:48:51.719 --> 0:48:55.040
<v Speaker 1>just discuss a weird film on Weird House Cinema. Huge

0:48:55.080 --> 0:48:59.600
<v Speaker 1>things as always to well, actually to our regular producer

0:48:59.719 --> 0:49:02.800
<v Speaker 1>Seth Nicholas Johnson, and thanks to our guest producer today

0:49:03.000 --> 0:49:06.680
<v Speaker 1>Paul decand Paul really appreciate you sub an in for

0:49:06.760 --> 0:49:09.200
<v Speaker 1>us today. If you would like to get in touch

0:49:09.280 --> 0:49:12.080
<v Speaker 1>with us with feedback on this episode or any other,

0:49:12.160 --> 0:49:14.239
<v Speaker 1>to suggest a topic for the future, or just to

0:49:14.320 --> 0:49:17.760
<v Speaker 1>say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff

0:49:17.800 --> 0:49:27.880
<v Speaker 1>to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your

0:49:27.880 --> 0:49:31.000
<v Speaker 1>Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my

0:49:31.040 --> 0:49:34.440
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