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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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Speaker 2: name is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with

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Speaker 3: the third part in our series on pretend play, the

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Speaker 3: type of play that involves non literal understanding. So when

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Speaker 3: a child or an adult, but it's usually a child.

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Speaker 3: When a child runs around the living room saying room, room,

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Speaker 3: I am a truck. Or when they turn a cardboard

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Speaker 3: box that a package came in into a house and

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Speaker 3: live in the house and do things in there and

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Speaker 3: talk about the tiny people who live in there with them.

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Speaker 3: When they pretend to feed and care for a plastic

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Speaker 3: dinosaurs if it were a baby, When they have adventures

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Speaker 3: with an imaginary friend. All of these are forms of

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Speaker 3: pretend play. It's played that takes anything in the world

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Speaker 3: and the situation in an object in the cell health

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Speaker 3: as something other than literally what it is now. In

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Speaker 3: the past two episodes, we got into a number of

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Speaker 3: fascinating ideas and concepts from the academic study of pretend play.

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Speaker 3: We talked about the standard schedule on which pretend play

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Speaker 3: appears to emerge, usually with the first type of play

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Speaker 3: being object substitution, So you know, this stick is a sword,

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Speaker 3: this dinosaur toy is a baby, this remote control as

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Speaker 3: a phone. We talked about the evidence for possible links

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Speaker 3: between pretend play and the development of complex cognitive capacities

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Speaker 3: like symbolic understanding, counterfactual reasoning, and theory of mind. And

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Speaker 3: in part two we talked about some of the existing

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Speaker 3: research on imaginary friends and imaginary companions, how prevalent they

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Speaker 3: are within and across different cultures, how they work, what

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Speaker 3: different forms they take, and what children believe they know.

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Speaker 3: And today we're back to talk about more.

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Speaker 2: When you mentioned how work, it instantly made me wonder

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Speaker 2: if there are some imaginary friends who have jobs. I

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Speaker 2: would not be surprised to find that some imaginary friends

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Speaker 2: do have jobs, but I don't think I read anything

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Speaker 2: about that in particular.

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Speaker 3: Oh well, based on what I've been reading, there are

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Speaker 3: a good number of observations of imaginary friends doing what

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Speaker 3: the child themselves cannot. So you know, there's a kind

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Speaker 3: of vicarious attainment of life goals or vicarious participation in

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Speaker 3: activities through the use of imaginary friends. So maybe if

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Speaker 3: in the same way that the child can pretend they

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Speaker 3: can like play mom and dad and go to work

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Speaker 3: even though they're not actually going anywhere. They could also

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Speaker 3: have the imaginary friend have a job, and that's another

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Speaker 3: way of simulating, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Now, as we discussed in the last episode,

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Speaker 2: and I would encourage everyone to go back and listen

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Speaker 2: to the previous episode. The previous two episodes actually take

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Speaker 2: these in order because a lot of the things we're

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Speaker 2: discussing they may stand alone, but we're also build upon

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Speaker 2: what we talked about previously. But one of the things

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Speaker 2: we talked about with imaginary friends and or imaginary companions

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Speaker 2: is that, of course they seem to be widespread and

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Speaker 2: fairly common, but there's a lot to discuss about samples

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Speaker 2: and where you're looking and also even time. So is

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Speaker 2: this a capacity that all children have and is that

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Speaker 2: capacity not really maxed out in every culture and certainly

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Speaker 2: at every time in human history. I don't know. There

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Speaker 2: are some interesting cases to be made for that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. In fact, that very thing might come up with

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Speaker 3: some stuff I want to talk about later in this episode.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, as we roll into what we're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about next, it's just important to bear in mind

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Speaker 2: that there are a lot of caveats involved here, A

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Speaker 2: lot of the research. Most of the research is certainly

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Speaker 2: focused on children in the West, and therefore it's not

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Speaker 2: necessarily allowing for cultural differences that may be in play

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Speaker 2: regarding how these trends are expressed in given children. Now,

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Speaker 2: having talked about imaginary friends and imaginary companions, we've touched

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Speaker 2: on one very fascinating phase in the imaginative lives of children. Storytelling,

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Speaker 2: of course, weaves its way through this and other examples

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Speaker 2: of imaginative play that we've discussed so far, even in

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Speaker 2: its simplest forms. Right dinosaur is hungry for crayons and

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Speaker 2: therefore eats crayons.

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Speaker 3: Is a sort of story, sometimes a comedy, sometimes a tragedy.

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Speaker 2: It depends on the exact line graph of how the

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Speaker 2: plot flows. Right, is the dinosaur getting everything it wants

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Speaker 2: on it and its lead up to downfall or is it?

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Speaker 2: Or is it just one disappointing meal after the other,

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Speaker 2: and eventually it will rise to the top of a

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Speaker 2: crayon buffet?

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Speaker 3: And I think something about does it end in a marriage?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it may. Marriages sometimes do occur for toy dinosaurs. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so you know, our ability to engage in storytelling, of course,

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Speaker 2: only becomes more and more refined as we get older.

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Speaker 2: Even children but also adults who do not think of

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Speaker 2: themselves as storytellers inevitably engage with the power of storytelling

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Speaker 2: on a daily basis. We've talked about this before in

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Speaker 2: the show. We craft events in our lives into stories

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Speaker 2: that we relate to others and to ourselves. We come

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Speaker 2: to live our lives and reflect on ourself as a

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Speaker 2: character in a narrative to varying degrees.

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Speaker 3: You know, this is just reminding me of I think

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Speaker 3: an episode or a couple of episodes that we did

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Speaker 3: years ago. Now I forget what it's even called, but

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Speaker 3: we were exploring the work of a particular philosopher who

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Speaker 3: was this was one of the most like perverse and

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Speaker 3: yet persuasive ideas we've ever encountered on the show. It

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Speaker 3: was pursuing the idea that ultimately fiction is bad for us.

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Speaker 3: And I remember was like they this guy made a

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Speaker 3: fairly persuasive case that like, it's not very good for us,

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Speaker 3: you know, like it causes us to think about the

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Speaker 3: world and incorrect ways and makes allowances for bad behavior

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Speaker 3: and all this kind of stuff. And yet it's just like, well,

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Speaker 3: we're not getting rid of it, and I like it

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Speaker 3: too much, so it's like too bad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, there's a whole discussion to be had about

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Speaker 2: how life isn't story shaped, but we often compare it

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Speaker 2: to stories and end up with expectations based on those stories.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it's uh, it's complex, and I think, you know, honestly,

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Speaker 2: I feel like there's there's give and take on both sides. There,

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Speaker 2: Like stories and storytelling enrich our lives in so many ways,

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Speaker 2: but yes, they can you know, also lead to false expectations, disappointment,

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Speaker 2: and and and again. Coming to back what we're directly

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Speaker 2: talking about here, Yeah, thinking about yourself as a character

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Speaker 2: in a narrative, you know, can maybe get into maladaptive

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Speaker 2: territory at times.

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Speaker 3: But we're not going to stop.

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Speaker 2: No, no, why would we stop now? There are many

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Speaker 2: different forms of narrative activities to be found in childhood,

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Speaker 2: and they range from the nonfictional to the fictional, from

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Speaker 2: social to private, from acted out to linguistic, and all

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Speaker 2: with varying levels of character and plot development. There might

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Speaker 2: not be any plot development in the saga of Dinosaur

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Speaker 2: Eats Crayons, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have some

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Speaker 2: form of story to it, right, right, But one particularly

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Speaker 2: interesting form of imaginative storytelling can be found in middle childhood,

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Speaker 2: generally around the ages of eight through twelve. And in

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Speaker 2: this we explore the world of paracosm. So this goes

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Speaker 2: beyond the notion of an imaginary companion and it transcends

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Speaker 2: into the realm of an imaginary world.

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Speaker 3: So if the single imaginary companion or imaginary friend is

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Speaker 3: the equivalent of a fiction writer creating a character, this

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Speaker 3: is the equivalent of world building exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And obviously this is a rich area to dream about,

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Speaker 2: and indeed to tell stories about. C. S. Lewis's Narnia

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Speaker 2: and mister rogers neighborhood of make Believes certainly come to

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Speaker 2: my mind. I'd throw Alice in Wonderland in there as well,

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Speaker 2: while we're at it. And these are probably some of

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Speaker 2: the examples that resonate with folks who grew up in

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Speaker 2: the same decade as me on a similar media diet.

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Speaker 2: But there of course far more number of these that

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Speaker 2: you can think of any number of these. There are,

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Speaker 2: of course, more concrete ideas of actual fantasy worlds that

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Speaker 2: one might venture into that are at the same time

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Speaker 2: linked to the concept of creatively imagined worlds. You can

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Speaker 2: also look to any magical treatment of characters crossing over

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Speaker 2: into the worlds of books, TV, and movies, as well

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Speaker 2: as so many different sci fi, virtual reality, dream walking scenarios,

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Speaker 2: all creative treatments on the idea that imagine worlds become

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Speaker 2: a place in the mind that we might retreat to play,

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Speaker 2: dream and seek soft.

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Speaker 3: You know, just now thinking about it, it struck me

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Speaker 3: how many of these stories about characters who want to

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Speaker 3: escape into an imaginary world focus on showing the characters

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Speaker 3: struggles and and unhappiness about real life. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: there in the Never Ending Story, it's there. And I

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Speaker 3: don't know why. This is the other example that came

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Speaker 3: to mind for me, But the Last Action Hero, you know,

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Speaker 3: there's just like it's just like, oh, well, real life,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's full of troubles, but there's this other

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Speaker 3: world that's so much more interesting and exciting and better.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's so many examples of there's so many different

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Speaker 2: like subgenres of it, like the changing channels variations you see,

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Speaker 2: and I think at least a handful of not several

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Speaker 2: different movies, especially the nineties, where oh I'm sucked into

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Speaker 2: the television again, I'm going from TV channel to TV channel,

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Speaker 2: you know, and you know, you can even get into

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Speaker 2: things like well Star Trek in general as again a

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Speaker 2: fictional universe we might escape into imaginatively. But also they

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Speaker 2: have the Holo deck in there, which is its own

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Speaker 2: form of paracosm within a paracosm.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. But I just brought it up because

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Speaker 3: I think it's interesting that in reality. I don't think

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Speaker 3: one need be unhappy with real life in order to

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Speaker 3: enjoy thinking about alternate worlds. But this is like a

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Speaker 3: thing that we sort of go to in fiction when

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Speaker 3: we're sketching this character who wants to escape.

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Speaker 2: No, no, it does, certainly it does come up. One

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Speaker 2: source I was looking as a twenty eighteen Artifact magazine

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Speaker 2: article by one George James and Jane cites child psychologist

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Speaker 2: Gwynn Abin, who argues that when faced with trauma, children

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Speaker 2: and adolescents may fall back in their development, returning to

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Speaker 2: a place where they felt more safe and quote a

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Speaker 2: paracosm is similar, the goal being to step out of

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Speaker 2: reality because it is too difficult to process. Now I

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Speaker 2: agree with you, and I think other things I've read

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Speaker 2: backs that up the idea that you may see this

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Speaker 2: some of the time, certainly, but you don't need to

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Speaker 2: have something in particular you're escaping to engage in paracosm,

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Speaker 2: to have an imagined world that you're dreaming yourself into

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Speaker 2: and building out in your mind, you know, especially during

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Speaker 2: these vital years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it might in fact be one way people

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Speaker 3: get there, but it's not the only way exactly.

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Speaker 2: That's my redone it anyway.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, sorry to interrupt your flow though.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, But I think it is worth

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Speaker 2: noting as well that this is this sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: The energy of this doesn't necessarily go away in the

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Speaker 2: human experience. Obviously. Adults are certainly quite capable of escaping

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Speaker 2: into their own imagined worlds in plenty of perfectly healthy ways,

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Speaker 2: as well as some potentially less healthy ways. We discussed

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Speaker 2: the idea of maladaptive day dreaming on the show in

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Speaker 2: the past, so you could line that concept up with

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Speaker 2: some of this. But yeah, I mean, on any given day,

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Speaker 2: I challenge listeners out there, how many different imaginary worlds

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Speaker 2: have you engaged with so far today? In one form

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Speaker 2: or another, and you know, I was just like, I

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Speaker 2: don't have a firm count in my head, but I

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Speaker 2: feel like it's been at least five, you know. So

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Speaker 2: you know, our lives are full of imaginary spaces. It

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Speaker 2: just depends on how much time, what sort of engagement

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Speaker 2: we're getting into there, and so forth.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that does raise an interesting question, like how

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Speaker 3: much engagement is generally required for it to be thought

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Speaker 3: of as paracosm play. I would assume just like reading

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Speaker 3: a book is not usually would not usually qualify as

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Speaker 3: engaging with paracosms, or would it.

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Speaker 2: Well, the stricter definition of paracosms, as mentioned in that

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Speaker 2: Artifact magazine article by James, is that it would be

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Speaker 2: a paracosm would have to adhere to the idea that quote,

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Speaker 2: the formation of the world must occur within childhood or

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Speaker 2: early adolescence and in many cases continued on into adulthood.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't have to continue on into adulthood, but at least

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Speaker 2: like the memory of it often does. So generally we're

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Speaker 2: looking looking at this specific time. You know. You can

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Speaker 2: certainly people dream up very rich imagined worlds as adults,

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Speaker 2: but we might think of that differently because it's not

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Speaker 2: emerging out of this key time period in middle childhood

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Speaker 2: and early adolescence.

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Speaker 3: And it sounds to me, based on that definition, like

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Speaker 3: something about the paracosm experience is usually taken to have

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Speaker 3: a kind of daydreaming aspect, like the child is directly

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Speaker 3: participating in the construction of this imaginary world and thinking

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Speaker 3: about it, apart from just say, participating in a story

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Speaker 3: written by somebody else.

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Speaker 2: Right right, though there are some connections to pre existing work,

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Speaker 2: as we'll get into. So the other paper that I

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Speaker 2: turned to to understand this topic is a twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: paper published in the journal Childhood Development by Marjorie Taylor

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Speaker 2: at All titled Paracosms The Imaginary Worlds of Middle Children. Now,

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Speaker 2: first of all, no one is denying the existence of

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Speaker 2: paric and children. There's there's plenty of evidence, plenty of

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Speaker 2: reports on this, but exactly what we can draw from

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Speaker 2: the accounts and how it all factors into childhood development

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Speaker 2: requires a bit more effort and varies somewhat in the

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Speaker 2: specific theories. During middle childhood, some children develop and or adapt,

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Speaker 2: so it doesn't have to be a world that's created

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Speaker 2: completely wholesale, And I think ultimately, you know, that's a

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Speaker 2: lot of pure imagination to expect from adult creatives, much

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Speaker 2: less children.

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Speaker 3: But dealing with something more like fan fiction here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I mean you can make a case

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Speaker 2: that everything's fan fiction to some degree, right, but but

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Speaker 2: but yeah, it doesn't have to be created wholesale, but

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Speaker 2: it's a rich imagined world that may entail. Each world

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Speaker 2: may entail its own government, geography, language, culture, associated artifacts.

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Speaker 2: A lot of these worlds have particular names, so it

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Speaker 2: gets it gets very deep. Like you know, apps may

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Speaker 2: be involved, either mental or actually recreated physically. Now, what

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Speaker 2: are the percentages you're probably wondering. You know, we talked

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Speaker 2: about the percentages for imaginary friends in the previous episode

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Speaker 2: and those were quite high, based again on the sample

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Speaker 2: groups generally in the West. Yeah, the percentages here. I

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Speaker 2: think we'll be able to grind the numbers down a

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Speaker 2: little bit in a minute here. But the percentages either

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Speaker 2: referenced in the text or from other studies or produced

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Speaker 2: by the authors in this study range from three to

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Speaker 2: twelve percent to sixteen to seventeen percent. And in individual

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Speaker 2: sample groups you see some much higher percentages, like up

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Speaker 2: into the forties. But so generally, just to sum it up,

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Speaker 2: it seems like there's a lower percentage of paracosms compared

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Speaker 2: to imaginary companions or imaginary friends.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. In some of the Western sample data, we were

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Speaker 3: looking at somewhere between one third to two thirds of

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Speaker 3: children having some form of imaginary companion, depending on how

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Speaker 3: strict your definition is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, Joe, I have to ask, we talked about

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Speaker 2: imaginary friends in the last episode in our own experiences

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Speaker 2: or lack they're off with them, did you have any

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Speaker 2: paracosms or something you think might constitute a paracosm when

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Speaker 2: you were younger.

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Speaker 3: Well, I guess again this would be a question of definitions.

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Speaker 3: I absolutely did dream up imaginary worlds, but I always

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Speaker 3: remember thinking of them as ideas for stories I wanted

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Speaker 3: to write. So it wasn't like I was dreaming of

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Speaker 3: living in these imaginary worlds or say playing like, oh here,

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Speaker 3: you know, here I am in my imaginary worlds. As

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Speaker 3: long as I can ever remember thinking about these places

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Speaker 3: I would dream up, I was thinking about them as

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Speaker 3: stories that I was creating.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, you know, I don't know that that would

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Speaker 2: necessarily disqualify any of this, because certainly as we'll explore

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Speaker 2: there are examples of paracosms certainly becoming written created works,

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Speaker 2: or you know, some sort of a creative endeavor later

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Speaker 2: on in life. For my own part, I remember two

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Speaker 2: specific things, like, in around third grade, I had some

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Speaker 2: sort of an elaborate scenario going on in my head

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Speaker 2: that was based loosely on something from the Gi Joe

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Speaker 2: cartoon that involved like a space station, as well as

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Speaker 2: a snippet of an animated film i'd seen part of

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Speaker 2: on TV, which I would later come to believe was

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Speaker 2: likely a snippet from Nausica, something with the Giant Warriors,

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Speaker 2: but I didn't know what it was at the time.

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Speaker 3: Well, what a privilege to have that as an inspiration

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Speaker 3: for your para cosm. And that's a yeah, that's a

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Speaker 3: good one.

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Speaker 2: Now, this world had no name, and I even hesitate

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Speaker 2: to call it a world, but I would say that

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Speaker 2: it was a recurring imaginary space that I would often

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Speaker 2: go into, like I remember going into it at school

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Speaker 2: a lot. If I got a little bit bored or

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Speaker 2: distracted in school in third grade, that's where I would go.

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Speaker 2: And so that one comes to mind. And then in

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Speaker 2: junior high I had a world that was loosely inspired

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Speaker 2: by Ian Flux cartoons, oh, which was you know, pretty

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Speaker 2: exciting at the time. I hadn't seen a lot of

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Speaker 2: animation from outside of the US at the time, you know,

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Speaker 2: only a little bit of anime. And of course, you know,

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Speaker 2: this was a highly stylistic cartoon with graphic violence and

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Speaker 2: a lot of sex appeal. So and it was on MTV,

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Speaker 2: so I watched it like everything else on MTV at

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Speaker 2: the time.

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Speaker 3: Well, this is really interesting. So in what sense exactly

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Speaker 3: were you mentally engaging with these paracosms. Were you like

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Speaker 3: just sitting there sort of mentally building them out, like

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Speaker 3: thinking about new details of them, or were you imagining

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Speaker 3: inhabiting them bottle or like do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: I know, not bodily. Maybe there was a certain amount

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Speaker 2: of bodily presence in the third grade example, but in

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Speaker 2: this junior high example, I was not there at all.

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Speaker 2: It was other characters, different factions, and you know, it

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Speaker 2: was like stuff sort of built on top of rough

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Speaker 2: Ian Flux inspiration, so.

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Speaker 3: More equivalent to kind of like writing a fiction in

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Speaker 3: your head.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But at the same time, this was definitely a

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Speaker 2: time period when I was also you know, trying to

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Speaker 2: write things and thinking about things that could be made

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Speaker 2: into a short story or a book. And this was

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Speaker 2: never an idea that I pointed in that direction, you know,

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Speaker 2: you know I was, and I wouldn't even I wasn't

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Speaker 2: even exploring it in things like Dungeons and Dragons at

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Speaker 2: the time, which I was also a creative outlet then

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Speaker 2: as it is now. But yeah, based on some of

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Speaker 2: these parameters, I would think that maybe this second and

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Speaker 2: constitute some form of paracosm, though certainly not as rich

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Speaker 2: and elaborate as some of these other examples that I've

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Speaker 2: read about. You know, this is not a place. It

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Speaker 2: had a name, it didn't have a it didn't have

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Speaker 2: its own language, I had no maps, but it had

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Speaker 2: you know, rather distinct action sequences laid out.

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Speaker 3: I would say, well, maybe we can come back to

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Speaker 3: this question later on. But yeah, this is making me

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Speaker 3: more and more curious about really what are the key

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Speaker 3: distinctions between having a paracosm and just say, writing a

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Speaker 3: fiction that you don't share with anybody else or maybe

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Speaker 3: the Judicia you know who knows.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean, as is pointed out in that

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Speaker 2: one definition, there's the idea that you might take it

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Speaker 2: on into adulthood and it becomes this cherished world that

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Speaker 2: you keep going. That is not the case with my

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Speaker 2: influx fan fiction or whatever it was, you know at

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Speaker 2: the time. I mean, some of the sensibilities that I

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Speaker 2: that are associated with that I've certainly you know, carried on.

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Speaker 2: You know, I still like the idea of life forms

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Speaker 2: growing on spaceships. I'm still like, you know, kick ass

371
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Speaker 2: female action heroes, that sort of thing. But you know,

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Speaker 2: this is not on the level of say like a

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Speaker 2: Middle Earth or something, you know, or where the seeds

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Speaker 2: of it were present in middle childhood imagination and then

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Speaker 2: carries on into you know, grown up creative endeavors.

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Speaker 3: This made me just realize I might be able to

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Speaker 3: amend my earlier answer. This isn't This was never something

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Speaker 3: super elaborate, but I remember there were a few times

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Speaker 3: when I was a kid when I would wake up

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Speaker 3: from having a really good dream. I would be frustrated

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Speaker 3: that the dream was over and want to be able

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Speaker 3: to continue the dream. So I would just sort of

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Speaker 3: like try to remember the world and the scenario of

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Speaker 3: the dream and keep thinking about it, and usually it

385
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Speaker 3: would go away pretty quick anyway. But like I remember

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Speaker 3: there were a few I think that had similar contours.

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Speaker 3: Often they were about like discovering a secret passage or

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Speaker 3: a tunnel from my house that went somewhere really amazing.

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Speaker 2: Oh nice. Yeah, I think that does line up with

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Speaker 2: some of the things you know, we're discussing here, and

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Speaker 2: is reference the role of dreams is referenced in that

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Speaker 2: Taylor at All paper.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, though I don't think any of these ever really

394
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Speaker 3: continued for you know, more than a day or so.

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Speaker 3: But like I remember, at least a few of these

396
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Speaker 3: instances making a strong impression, even if I didn't continue

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Speaker 3: to develop the world or re engage with it. So

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Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't know where I fit into

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Speaker 3: this whole thing.

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Speaker 2: I'm hoping we'll get some really robust examples from listeners.

401
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Speaker 2: I'm sure there are some para cosms out there that

402
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Speaker 2: they can write in about now. As the authors point out,

403
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Speaker 2: one of the first challenges to understanding all of this is,

404
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,680
Speaker 2: of course, the history of our understanding of para cosms.

405
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 2: The earliest accounts all centered around nineteenth and twentieth century

406
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 2: authors who enjoyed tremendous success with their works, the likes

407
00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 2: of the Bronte sisters they shared. The sisters shared three

408
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 2: different worlds named Gondel, Angria and Galdin. I'm not super

409
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 2: familiar with them, but yeah, they had not one, not two,

410
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:15,200
Speaker 2: but three paracosms between them. Robert Louis Stevenson is another

411
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Speaker 2: j R. Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, Desmond, Morris, Nietzsche. Also

412
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Speaker 2: Thomas de Quincy I've seen thrown in there as well.

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Speaker 2: And you know, obviously this can present a fallacy of

414
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 2: excellence when it comes to paracosms, the idea that well,

415
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Speaker 2: if you've got imaginary worlds in your middle childhood brain,

416
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Speaker 2: then you have everything. You just got your futures paved

417
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Speaker 2: for you. So not to discount the vividness of each

418
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Speaker 2: individual's dreams, but I think I think it's fair to

419
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Speaker 2: say that none of them achieved success solely on the

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Speaker 2: strength of their childhood imaginations, though I think it's likely

421
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Speaker 2: somewhere in the equation.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, this seems like a kind of selection bias, right, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you're just looking at famous authors who engaged in paracosms

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Speaker 3: when they were younger, but like you're not finding out

425
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Speaker 3: about all the people who had pair cosms, who didn't

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Speaker 3: become famous.

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Speaker 2: Right right, And but at the very least these accounts

428
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 2: linked the concept with adult creativity, and we see subsequent

429
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 2: research coming back to that. So Robert Sylvie conducted UK

430
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 2: research in the eighties on the topic, finding a wide

431
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 2: variety of para cosms and self reports by adults. So

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Speaker 2: I believe he reached out via you know, publications and

433
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 2: was asking like, hey, write in to me, tell me

434
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Speaker 2: about your para cosms. This is what a paracosm is

435
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 2: slash was. And some of these were based on toys

436
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 2: or props, others more or less forged fresh from the

437
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 2: individual's mind. So there's you know, there's a wide variety there.

438
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 1: You know.

439
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 2: It's so this leads me to believe that you know,

440
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 2: loosely based on G. I. Joe cartoon can certainly count. Again,

441
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 2: it need not be just this, you know, rich original

442
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 2: imagined world, and some para cosms seemed quote to serve

443
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 2: as vehicles for storytelling and as a way to explore

444
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 2: real life interests. I believe the example that one of

445
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 2: the examples that Sylvie brought up was that of some

446
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 2: kids who were taking a foreign language class and then

447
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 2: therefore their para cosms had a lot to do with

448
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 2: imagined languages.

449
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 3: Oh okay, but his.

450
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,719
Speaker 2: Work indicated that paracosms peaked at nine and diminished by

451
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:19,439
Speaker 2: age twelve.

452
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 3: Oh and that would line up with because earlier you

453
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 3: said the most common range of paracosm activity is like

454
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 3: eight to twelve. So I guess it would like peak

455
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 3: by nine years old or so.

456
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, creativity researcher Robert rut Bernstein explored the concept

457
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 2: in subsequent decades, factoring it into his interdisciplinary view of creativity,

458
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 2: exploring the idea that para cosms were perhaps more likely

459
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 2: in recipients of the MacArthur Fellowship, though of note, he

460
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 2: was also a recipient of the MacArthur Fellowship and had

461
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 2: pero cosms as a kid, So you know, that seems

462
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 2: to be where that idea came from. But you know,

463
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 2: he speculated that para cosms might be more prevalent in

464
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 2: individuals who later pursued a creative and artistic career. To

465
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 2: be surprising, Yeah, to put some numbers on that, he

466
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 2: reported a rate of five to twenty six percent in

467
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 2: MacArthur Fellowship winners, as opposed to a rate of three

468
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 2: to twelve percent in the world at large. Okay, However,

469
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 2: Taylor at all that main paper I was referencing earlier

470
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 2: stressed that by the year twenty twenty, at any rate,

471
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 2: most of what we'd put together on paracosms were from

472
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: adults looking back on their childhoods and not from children

473
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 2: in the age range associated with the height of paracosms.

474
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 3: Ah. Okay, So there could be a strong bias in

475
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 3: the data we're getting based on what adults remember as

476
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 3: opposed to what children are actually doing with their minds

477
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 3: and their time.

478
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like I don't know, just you know, shooting from

479
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 2: the hip here, but oftentimes we're looking back in our childhood,

480
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 2: were presented with an idea like paracosms, and we're like,

481
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 2: that sounds great. I I wish I had one of

482
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 2: those what do I recollect that I might be able

483
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 2: to shoehorn into or into that category? You know, Like,

484
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 2: if I'm being critical, I have to like second guess

485
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 2: my own account here, Like that was daydreaming about something

486
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 2: related to a Gi Joe cartoon actually a paracosm, or

487
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 2: do I just like the idea that that was present

488
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 2: in my imagination at the time.

489
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 3: Oh, we both now have just had the experience of

490
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 3: sitting here like half remembering our childhood thoughts. I'm trying

491
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 3: to say, does it fit the box or not?

492
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I mean not to say that, you know,

493
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: it's completely wrong or anything, but obviously it would add

494
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 2: to our understanding if we could also talk to children

495
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 2: who were right there in the thick of it, right

496
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 2: in the same way as we discussed imaginary friends. There's

497
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 2: a lot of most of the research into imaginary friends

498
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 2: and imaginary companions really focuses now on talking to both parents,

499
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 2: all the children, and the children themselves to sort of,

500
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 2: you know, play one against the other and see what

501
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 2: seems to be the case. Yeah, Taylor at All's work

502
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 2: attempts to remedy this a bit. Looking at some seventy

503
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 2: seven children ages eight through twelve, they conducted a pair

504
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 2: of studies consisting of a series of questions as well

505
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 2: as creativity and storytelling exercises and evaluations, as well as

506
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 2: at least questionnaires to the parents to also get their

507
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 2: view on everything. So they found that seventeen point two

508
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: percent of the children reported having para cosms, while ten

509
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 2: point one percent reported what they call pre para cosms.

510
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: So this would be a specific place, either partially or

511
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 2: wholly imagined, but with little or no evidence of repeated

512
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 2: engagement with the place and or not much elaborated detail.

513
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: So I don't know, it's like a place you went

514
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 2: once in your head, or you work on a little bit,

515
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 2: but it's not there's nothing habitual about it.

516
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 3: I guess, Oh, this sounds more like my dream examples,

517
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 3: Like I had a good dream once and then I

518
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 3: really kept entertaining that idea for I don't know, a

519
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 3: day or two, but it's not something that like stuck

520
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 3: with me throughout childhood.

521
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, nineteen percent engaged in pretend play, which we've been

522
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 2: talking about. Ten point one percent reported engagement with an

523
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 2: unelaborated pretend world from a book, movie, or video game.

524
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: So I don't think my Gi Joe example quite fits

525
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 2: that because it wasn't like one hundred percent Gi Joe.

526
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 2: But I can imagine it's very easy for children to

527
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 2: fall into this imaginative space of just engaging with a

528
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 2: franchise that you really like and imagine world that has

529
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 2: you know, already been presented to you pretty much wholesale,

530
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 2: like you you're in the Lord of the Rings. Well,

531
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 2: take your imagination there like Tolkien's created all the details

532
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 2: you need.

533
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a prefab yeah yeah.

534
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 2: Four point seven percent engaged in thoughts about a real

535
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 2: world place they had visited or would like to visit.

536
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 2: Those sound like darling children. I was never one of them,

537
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 2: but but yeah, yeah, it's like they went there before,

538
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: they have some experiences and they would like to go back,

539
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 2: or they're very fond of it and they imagine the experience.

540
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 2: So yeah, that sounds good all day.

541
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 3: I dream of Abilene.

542
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. Three point three percent reported dreams, so I

543
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 2: think in this we're maybe getting a little bit into

544
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 2: your dream example, and then forty three point eight percent

545
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: said no or provided no detail. So you know, based

546
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 2: on this one study, again, something like seventeen point two

547
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 2: percent of the kids had paracosms, and then less than

548
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: half had nothing. But then there's also some wiggle room

549
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 2: for things that were adjacent to para cosms. So what

550
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 2: does all of this mean. Well, the author's stress that

551
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 2: paracosms do seem distinct from imaginary companions. Imaginary friends are

552
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 2: friends you engage with, They are individuals, while the child's

553
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: role in a parocosm is more of creator and observer.

554
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 2: So it's not a world you're really active in. It's

555
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 2: more it's more world building. Like you said, some times

556
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: children seem to generate para cosms as realms associated with

557
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: a previous imaginary companion, but other para cosms had no

558
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 2: connection to previous imaginary companions. And while I don't think

559
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 2: they nailed this down specifically, I gather it's possible for

560
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: a child to engage in paracosms without ever having had

561
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: an imaginary companion to begin with. My self report would

562
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 2: seem to indicate this, unless again, I had an imaginary

563
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 2: companion at some point that I don't remember, and my

564
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 2: mom doesn't remember either, which is.

565
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 3: Very likely, yes, totally possible.

566
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: Here's some other general observations they make. They said, para

567
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 2: cosms are not always private and maybe shared among children.

568
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 2: We can go back to the example from the Bronte

569
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 2: Sisters earlier. Right, You don't have to keep it all

570
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: to yourself. You can share it with those around you,

571
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 2: and you can have like a you know, it's almost

572
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 2: like a role playing setting. At that point. The link

573
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 2: between paracosms and creativity seems to vary, perhaps more pronounced

574
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 2: when it comes to storytelling as opposed to other creative exercises.

575
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: So if someone were just say, oh, well, this person

576
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 2: had had a paracosm when they were younger, so you

577
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: know they are more creative than those around them, You

578
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: know that that would be incorrect. Though it's possible they

579
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 2: might have a slight advantage on some storytelling creativity exercises.

580
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 3: Oh, that would also make sense to me not to

581
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 3: totally discount the idea that there might be some sort

582
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 3: of general creativity juice that is shared among the different

583
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 3: creative activities, but if one engages in paracosms, that sounds

584
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 3: to me more like practice toward experience in storytelling and

585
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 3: the writing of fiction than it does towards say, the

586
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 3: creation of music or of painting or something.

587
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, there may also be a correlation between paracosms and

588
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 2: decreased inhibition. The authors here point out that in other studies,

589
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 2: inhibitory control is also sometimes negatively correlated with creative behavior.

590
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 3: That's interesting. This may be something they already controlled for.

591
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 3: But I would also wonder if, if if a decreased

592
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 3: role of inhibition makes a child more likely to tell

593
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 3: people about their paracosms as opposed to just making them

594
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 3: more likely to have them. So that makes sense.

595
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 2: That is a great point. Yeah, I don't know that

596
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 2: they got into it in this study so much, but

597
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: I think that's a good point because reporting, self reporting

598
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 2: is pretty much the main factor here. There's no other

599
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 2: way to know if there's an imagined world in there

600
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 2: than by asking the child or the adult.

601
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 3: The child becomes like, I wonder if just on self

602
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 3: reports for all kinds of any unusual behavior, you would

603
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 3: get more. You would find a correlation that people with

604
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: lower inhibition are more likely to say they do it,

605
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily mean they're more likely to actually do it.

606
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, However, they stress that surprising to them. Children

607
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 2: with para cosms don't really stand out from their peers

608
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 2: all that much. So it's easy to sort of have

609
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 2: this in your head, this idea of this, you're a

610
00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 2: remarkably weird Victorian child, you know, spilling the beans about

611
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 2: their imagined world. But and you know, and again standing

612
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 2: out from the crowd in major ways. But they write quote,

613
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: they are similar to their peers in verbal comprehension, working memory,

614
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: and the most commonly used created creativity task, in which

615
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 2: children are asked to generate uses for a common object.

616
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 2: Where they do stand out is story is in storytelling,

617
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 2: Not only were the narratives of their paracosms impressive, they

618
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 2: invented more creative endings to a story than the endings

619
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 2: proposed by other children, a finding that was consistent across

620
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: the two studies and in the combined analysis. And on

621
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 2: top of that, on a sort of broader level, they

622
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 2: discuss how creative storytelling seems to have broad positive influence

623
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 2: on our ability to examine alternative viewpoints and engage in

624
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 2: different modes of empathy, and how paracosms and children may

625
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 2: relate to this.

626
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 3: Well, we've already talked about the likely link and cognitive

627
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 3: development between pretend to play in general, of which paracosms

628
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 3: are sort of one extreme form, and counterfactual reasoning. I

629
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 3: would say that there is a broad overlap between counterfactual

630
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 3: reasoning and the ability to tell stories.

631
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think so. So it's yeah, this is

632
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 2: really fascinating stuff. You know, I honestly can't remember how

633
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 2: much we may have gotten into paracosms in discussing that

634
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 2: topic of maladaptive daydreaming. Maybe not at all, Maybe we

635
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 2: touched on it a little bit, But at any rate,

636
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 2: it's not a topic I'd really looked at recently, and

637
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 2: so this was and certainly not since twenty twenty when

638
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 2: this paper came out. So was, Yeah, this was really fascinating,

639
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 2: and I would of course love to hear anyone out

640
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 2: there who wants to write into the show and tell

641
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 2: us about your para cosms from your childhood, what you

642
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 2: took with you, what you left behind, what they seemed

643
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 2: to consist of, and how they sort of ranked up,

644
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 2: how they matched up with this ranking system that we

645
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 2: just ran.

646
00:35:51,400 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 4: Through, Top five all time para cosms.

647
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 3: All right, Well, the next thing I wanted to look

648
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,240
Speaker 3: at on the subject of pretend play is the idea

649
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 3: of pretending across cultures. As we've discussed multiple times already,

650
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 3: pretend play research, like most psychological research, suffers from the

651
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 3: deficiency that subjects tested in the published literature, are not

652
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 3: a perfectly random sample of humankind as a whole, but

653
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 3: instead are predominantly from the weird cultures, western educated, industrialized, rich,

654
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 3: democratic cultures. The majority of these studies were conducted in

655
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 3: the United States, Canada, and Europe, so it would be

656
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 3: great to know more about pretend play across different cultures

657
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 3: around the world. Is it largely the same or are

658
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,879
Speaker 3: there major cultural differences? Now, this was addressed a little

659
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 3: bit in one of the big papers that I've been

660
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 3: talking about in this series. This was a review of

661
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 3: the research on pretend play as of the year twenty

662
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 3: fifteen by a researcher named Dina Skolnik Weisberg, published in

663
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 3: widely interdisciplinary Reviews Cognitive Science. Again, that was the year

664
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 3: twenty fifteen, and Weisberg goes through a basic review of

665
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 3: the cross cultural literature and summarizes some of the main findings,

666
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 3: one of which is that some form of pretend play

667
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 3: in childhood really does appear to be universal. As far

668
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 3: as we can tell. This is something basically all children

669
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 3: in all cultures do. But there are some big differences,

670
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 3: and I'll get to that in a second. Another thing

671
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 3: that seems to be fairly universal is the developmental sequence.

672
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 3: So it appears that the sequence is roughly the same

673
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 3: across different cultures. Seems that it often begins on a

674
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 3: similar schedule, and I think this means that usually you

675
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 3: will get the first observable form being object substitution and

676
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 3: so forth. However, there are clearly major cultural differences in

677
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 3: pretend play that manifest in the amount of time spend

678
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 3: on it and the themes and contents of the play.

679
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 3: And this is interesting because it varies across national culture lines.

680
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 3: So you can look at, say, the cultures of different

681
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 3: countries and how the children do pretend to play in

682
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 3: each country, and you can find some differences, but you

683
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 3: also find subcultural differences within countries. And that's going to

684
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 3: lead us to one of the big things I want

685
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 3: to talk about in the section here. But to start off,

686
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 3: Weisberg sites one study that compared the play themes of

687
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 3: American children and Chinese children and found that while pretend

688
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,240
Speaker 3: play exists in both cultures, obviously American children's play tended

689
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 3: to have more fantasy content. In these studies, fantasy content

690
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 3: is non realistic material, so things like talking animals, magical beings,

691
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 3: and so forth, and that the pretend play of Chinese children,

692
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 3: on average tended to have more realistic content. And within

693
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 3: some cultures or subcultures, it's clear that this is to

694
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 3: some extent influenced by the preferences and instruction of parents,

695
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 3: Like in some cultures and subcultures, parents will be more

696
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 3: or less encouraging of pretend play, and these tendencies affect

697
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 3: how much children do it. But even in cases where

698
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 3: parents are actively discouraging it, it really seems that it

699
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 3: doesn't stamp it out completely. And this brings me to

700
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,240
Speaker 3: a paper that I wanted to talk about, which actually

701
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 3: shares one of the authors of one of the main

702
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 3: PARACOSM papers you were just talking about. This is a

703
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 3: paper that's looking at pretend play across different religious subcultures

704
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 3: within the United States. So the paper is called The

705
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 3: Influence of Culture on Pretend Play The Case of Mennonite Children,

706
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 3: published in the Meryl Palmer Quarterly in nineteen ninety eight

707
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 3: by Stephanie M. Carlson, Marjorie Taylor, and Gerald R. Levin.

708
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 3: And this study wanted to look at attitudes toward pretend

709
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 3: play within Mennonite society in two different branches of Mennonite culture.

710
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 3: One was looking at what they called Old Order Mennonites

711
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 3: and then also at New Order Mennonites. I can mention

712
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 3: differences in a second and then also comparing that to

713
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 3: non Mennonite Christians. Now apologies to the Mennonites for the

714
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 3: brevity of the summary of their culture I'm about to

715
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 3: give you know, you can't summarize the entire culture and

716
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 3: a sentence, but essentially, Mennonites are known for having a

717
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 3: fairly strict, community oriented way of life that emphasizes modesty,

718
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 3: hard work, and piety. Often Mennonites are engaged in agriculture

719
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 3: for a living, and they often deny the use of

720
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 3: certain modern technologies and limit interface with the broader culture,

721
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 3: though this varies within different branches of the Mennonite tradition.

722
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 3: The Amish are one well known branch of the Mennonite faith.

723
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 3: In the specific context of this study where they were

724
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 3: where the authors were framing New Order Mennonites versus Old

725
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 3: Order Mennonites, the New Order Mennonites seemed to be less

726
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 3: stringent in some particular areas of faith doctrine and social lifestyle. So,

727
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 3: for example, had apparently fewer sort of social conformity mechanisms

728
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 3: to enforce adherence to the social doctrine about about dress

729
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 3: and use of technology and things like that. And it

730
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 3: appears just based on the small sample of like looking

731
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 3: at the teachers in the study and what different technologies

732
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 3: they used, that the New Order Mennonites were engaging with

733
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 3: or were generally permitted to use more modern technology in

734
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,919
Speaker 3: a wider range of scenarios than people in the Old Order.

735
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 3: So the survey of teachers found that like neither the

736
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 3: Old Order nor the New Order, Mennonites went to the

737
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 3: movies or had a TV at home, but the New

738
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 3: Order teachers were more likely to have electricity in the

739
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 3: home and to drive a car. So why focus on

740
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 3: the example of Mennonite children when looking for differences in

741
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 3: parental culture on how children engage in pretend play? Well,

742
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 3: there was already some background literature. The on Minnite attitudes

743
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 3: towards children's pretend play and toward fantasy. The authors say that,

744
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 3: in general, quote, acceptable reading material for Mennite children include

745
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 3: stories that represent an American rural way of life and

746
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 3: teach a moral lesson, such as the value of hard work.

747
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 3: Stories that have a fantasy orientation are considered unacceptable. The

748
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 3: Amish quote do not want their children to read fairy

749
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 3: tales or myths. Many object to any stories that are

750
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 3: not true, such as those in which animals talk and

751
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 3: act like people, or stories that involve magic, such as

752
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 3: the Pied Piper of Hamlin. And this is citing older

753
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 3: research by Hostetler and Huntington from nineteen seventy one, and

754
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 3: then the authors of this paper go on to mention

755
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 3: that the founder of the Mennonite faith Minno Simons, who

756
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 3: is a Catholic priest in the sixteenth century who became

757
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 3: an Anabaptist, and again the founder of this faith was

758
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 3: down on pretend play. Essentially said, parents, do not encourage

759
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 3: your children to engage in frivolous activities. Don't you know,

760
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 3: pretend is no good. The quote he said was quote wink,

761
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 3: not at their follies. The author is also stressed that

762
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 3: the Mennonites tend to believe that children should not just

763
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 3: be idols, should not just like have a lot of

764
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,359
Speaker 3: free time to run around and do whatever that they

765
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 3: you know, they should be engaged in in structured productive time.

766
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 3: You know, they have schoolaying, and they have helping out

767
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 3: with things and so forth, and that it's detrimental to

768
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 3: them to be idle too much. And we've already talked

769
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 3: before about how sort of a free playtime alone may

770
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 3: be a significant factor in the development of different pretend

771
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,280
Speaker 3: to play skills and the likelihood of developing certain pretend

772
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 3: to play elements such as imaginary companions. So this paper

773
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:58,919
Speaker 3: has a couple of different studies and one of them

774
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 3: is comparing the behaviors and attitudes of school teachers toward

775
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 3: pretend play, and that was looking at Old Order Mennonite,

776
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 3: New Order Mennonite, and Non Mennonite Christian teachers, and then

777
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 3: also later looking at the directly observing the play of

778
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 3: children at recess to look for signs of pretend play

779
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 3: and see if there were differences between the three faith environments. Specifically,

780
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 3: when looking at the attitudes of the adult school teachers,

781
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:31,839
Speaker 3: they expected to find that the Mennonite teachers would have

782
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 3: more negative attitudes toward pretend play and would be sort

783
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 3: of would have negative attitudes themselves about pretense and would

784
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 3: be discouraging of it in children. Did the results actually

785
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 3: match up with that well, sort of, but with some surprises.

786
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 3: They did find that overall, Mennonite school teachers were not

787
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 3: as supportive of pretend to play as non Mennonite Christian teachers. However,

788
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 3: unlike the New Order and the Non Mennonite Christian team teachers,

789
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 3: several of the Old Order teachers in their study reported

790
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 3: that they actually participated in pretend to play. With the

791
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,240
Speaker 3: children at recess that was kind of counterintuitive. They also

792
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 3: found that Old Order Mennonite teachers were also positive about

793
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 3: some types of fantasy, though not all, saying that they

794
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 3: shared their own dreams or daydreams with the children, something

795
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 3: not said by the teachers from the other groups. Also,

796
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:34,760
Speaker 3: Old Order teachers were on the whole, surprisingly positive about

797
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 3: imaginary companions. The authors wrote, quote, it is interesting that

798
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 3: imaginary companions are mentioned in one of the very few

799
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 3: published first hand reports of Mennonite childhood experiences. They cite

800
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 3: a book by Weaver in nineteen eighty three which quote

801
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 3: described how as a child she invented an imaginary companion

802
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 3: who was unlike herself, able to wear fancy clothes and

803
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 3: wear her hair and curls now. Despite that example in

804
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,720
Speaker 3: this other book, the authors stressed that in their direct

805
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 3: observations in the study, there were no reports of imaginary

806
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 3: companions allowing a vicarious way around social restrictions. Instead, they

807
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 3: were described as more filling a social void. However, it's

808
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 3: possible that information about I don't know, thrill seeking or

809
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 3: non conforming elements of imaginary companions were being hidden or

810
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 3: filtered out in these reports. I mean to the researchers,

811
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 3: not by the researchers. Another really interesting contrast, specifically with

812
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 3: respect to the imaginary companions, Several of the New Order

813
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 3: and non Mennonite Christian teachers were actually somewhat concerned in

814
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 3: a psychological or spiritual sense about imaginary companions, fearing that

815
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 3: they might be evidence of a psychological problem or literally

816
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 3: of demonic possession.

817
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean getting into a scenario where the child

818
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 2: is talking about an imagined entity that's speaking to them

819
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,399
Speaker 2: and perhaps sharing knowledge with them that knows more than

820
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 2: they do. Is matching up with little discussed in the

821
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 2: last episode.

822
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 3: I want to come back to that question here in

823
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:11,800
Speaker 3: a minute, But okay, So that was the first study

824
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 3: looking at the attitudes of teachers. Somewhat lined up. The

825
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:20,240
Speaker 3: Mennonite teachers were, on average not as supportive of playing pretend,

826
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 3: but there were some surprises, more variation than expected. So

827
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 3: let's go to study number two. This again was observing

828
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 3: the play of children at recess and looking for signs

829
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 3: of pretense of pretend play to see if there were

830
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 3: differences between the three faith environments. The main finding was

831
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 3: that Old Order Mennonite children showed differences in pretend play,

832
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 3: but not deficits. So it was not that they didn't

833
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 3: play pretend, but what they pretended was notably different. The

834
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 3: content was different, and they found that old order Mennonite

835
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 3: children tended to pretend with more realistic themes about work

836
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 3: and adult roles within their community. There was less fantasy,

837
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 3: less separation of the play themes from the working order

838
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 3: of reality. And the authors note that this is in

839
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:25,720
Speaker 3: line with previous findings that when you say ask children

840
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 3: to draw pictures, and you compare the drawings of Amish

841
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 3: school children with non Amish children, Amish kids drawings were

842
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 3: much more concerned with realistic daily activities like raking leaves

843
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 3: or taking care of babies, whereas the non Amish children,

844
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 3: by comparison, engaged in a lot more fantasy ideation in

845
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 3: their drawings. Now why this difference, Well, for one thing,

846
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 3: this does seem to be exactly the kind of thinking

847
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:57,839
Speaker 3: that the more strict Mennonite communities encourage. Mennonite adults on

848
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 3: average are more supportive of preteens and play when it

849
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 3: concerns the children's own intended future lives. So like I

850
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 3: am pretending to be a father or a mother, I

851
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,240
Speaker 3: am pretending to be a farmer and so forth. Also,

852
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 3: Old Order Minnite children, the authors point out, have limited

853
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 3: exposure to fantasy themes through culture. These children generally do

854
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 3: not watch movies or TV. They usually don't read books

855
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 3: with fantasy themes. So it could be that they are

856
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 3: simply given much less external inspiration to entertain non realistic

857
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 3: ideas and scenarios. I don't know how much of a

858
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 3: role that plays, but that does seem significant now.

859
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 2: I mean, I instantly though, wonder about the Bible's.

860
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 3: Role, and I had the same question.

861
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Bible is full of magic and giants and

862
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,760
Speaker 2: dragons and any number of fantastic themes.

863
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 3: I want to ask a question at the end, and

864
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 3: that it'll bring us back to that as well.

865
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 2: Okay.

866
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 3: Another interesting observation that the authors make here is that

867
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 3: even though the Old Order Mennite children did play pretend,

868
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:09,240
Speaker 3: they certainly did, they sometimes appeared to lack the vocabulary

869
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 3: to properly discuss the idea of pretend play. And here

870
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 3: I want to read from a passage the author's write quote.

871
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 3: For example, an Old Order Mennonite first grader in our

872
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 3: study did not know the word pretend when he came

873
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 3: across it in a story about a bird who feigned

874
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 3: death to deceive a predator. So to be clear, this

875
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,840
Speaker 3: is not even a story about playing. This is a

876
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 3: story about nature, but it just involves the idea of pretending,

877
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 3: as in like feigning something.

878
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, this lines up with some of the study limitations

879
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 2: that were discussing. That meta analysis that I discussed in

880
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 2: the last episode is that sometimes talking to the children

881
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 2: is the best source. But also, on one hand, they

882
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 2: just might not have they might not have the linguistic

883
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 2: ability to really discuss everything, to really couch it in

884
00:50:58,200 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 2: terms that makes sense.

885
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 3: Right, So this is a child who comes across the

886
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 3: idea of pretending in a story about nature and doesn't

887
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 3: know what the word means. I want to stress however, though,

888
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 3: that does not mean that the child did not pretend.

889
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 3: You can do something without having the words to describe

890
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 3: what you're doing. The authors continue quote. On another occasion,

891
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,919
Speaker 3: the first author noted the comments of an old order

892
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 3: girl who was observing another girl dress a doll. She

893
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 3: kept repeating, in a dismissive tone, it's not a right baby.

894
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 3: We questioned her and learned that she was trying to

895
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,280
Speaker 3: express that the doll was not a real baby.

896
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 2: Oh, how I wish we called baby dolls wrong babies.

897
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 2: That was so great.

898
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 3: I don't want to do this in my house because

899
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 3: it has bad normative implications. But yeah, that would be

900
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 3: hilarious to call everything pretend wrong. This is wrong dinosaur,

901
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:53,720
Speaker 3: this is wrong food.

902
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 2: But that's fascinating. It's so easy to take the concept

903
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 2: of for granted, even with children, that it would just

904
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 2: be a concept that you would latch onto so early.

905
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,720
Speaker 2: But yeah, not necessarily. You might not have the word

906
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 2: for it, even if the concept is still clearly there

907
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 2: in their mind. But how do you refer to it?

908
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 3: Another possible explanation for these findings, similar to the last one,

909
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 3: is the idea that Old Order Mennonite children had comparatively

910
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 3: fewer what the authors call environmental triggers for fantasy based

911
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 3: pretend to play than New Order Mennonites or non Mennonite Christians.

912
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 3: And you could think of a lot of these triggers.

913
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:39,240
Speaker 3: Sometimes I think we might forget to acknowledge how many

914
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 3: things and things in the world were surrounded by that

915
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 3: just cause us to imagine. So examples could be like

916
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 3: toys and costumes, other play props, decorations. Classroom decorations with

917
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 3: fantasy themes. You might not think about those, but they

918
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 3: talked about, you know, like a poster up on the

919
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,319
Speaker 3: classroom wall that has the Easter Bunny on it, or

920
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 3: you know, oh, that actually is a kind of fantasy theme.

921
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,839
Speaker 3: They even cite elaborate playground equipment, which the old Order

922
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 3: mid Night Children did not have, and the author I

923
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 3: didn't know this, but the authors cite previous research that

924
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:17,319
Speaker 3: had found that more elaborate playground equipment, as opposed to

925
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 3: simpler traditional playground equipment, has been found to quote promote

926
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 3: socio dramatic play themes. So I think the idea might

927
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 3: be that you know, these more complex kind of I

928
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 3: don't know what even the terms for these things are now,

929
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 3: but like these kind of towers and stuff that children

930
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 3: climb on and have a good time on might promote

931
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 3: a more dramatic, collaborative, fictional way of playing, if that

932
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:42,240
Speaker 3: makes any sense.

933
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 2: No, No, I can see that. Spent enough time on

934
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 2: playgrounds that I think I can see it. You know,

935
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:49,720
Speaker 2: It's like, even if it's certainly you have playgrounds where

936
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 2: the equipment is taking the form of a ship, where

937
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 2: it's taking the form of Oh, I guess generally a castle.

938
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 2: But even if there's nothing that thick, you have like

939
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:04,719
Speaker 2: a dynamic system built out there, like the drama kind

940
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:08,800
Speaker 2: of rights itself, you know, like you know, differing heights

941
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 2: involve narrowing spaces, bridges and so forth.

942
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So I didn't know this, but it makes

943
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:18,400
Speaker 3: sense to me as well. I can see that being true. Okay,

944
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 3: So one more explanation the authors offer that is community orientation.

945
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 3: So Old Order Mennonites tend to be very focused on

946
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 3: communal harmony and take a somewhat negative view of individualism.

947
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 3: And interestingly, I don't think I would have put this together,

948
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 3: but this really caught me here. Previous research has found

949
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 3: that pretend play with realistic themes may help foster communal

950
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 3: play between children because the script and the roles are

951
00:54:56,360 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 3: more likely to be familiar to all the children. So

952
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:02,760
Speaker 3: I don't think that would have occurred to me naturally,

953
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 3: but it's true. Like if we're kids out on the

954
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 3: playground and we're playing I don't know, playing games that

955
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 3: I used to play, which are like, let's act out

956
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 3: the latest movie that I saw and obsessed with. So

957
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 3: we're playing Santo versus the Martian invasion. Only the children

958
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 3: who have seen the movie or are already familiar with

959
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 3: the characters in the game will easily be able to participate.

960
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 3: Kids who are not familiar with what's going on are

961
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 3: really going to be at a loss here. But if

962
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 3: we all come from farming families and we all play

963
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 3: Farmer or we play house, every child is going to

964
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:40,799
Speaker 3: have some kind of relevant experience and know roughly how

965
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,800
Speaker 3: to play the game. So the idea is realistic. Pretend

966
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 3: play is more accessible to more children, more easily, and

967
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,839
Speaker 3: the author's right. In contrast, children who have a more

968
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:58,240
Speaker 3: individualistic orientation are more likely to pursue more imaginative themes,

969
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 3: which require negotiation and often result in conflict among play partners.

970
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 3: And I know, you know, we're partisans of imaginative play

971
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:09,279
Speaker 3: and fantasy themes and all that, so we're not down

972
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 3: talking it. But I can absolutely see this being true.

973
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:14,359
Speaker 3: Do you see this, Rob, Yeah?

974
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there are I guess a few different

975
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 2: ways to think about it. On one hand, there's the

976
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 2: the You can easily imagine one child having to explain,

977
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,439
Speaker 2: you know, their obsession the game they want to play

978
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 2: based on some sort of curated fandom that these other

979
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 2: kids don't have, which I feel like is more common

980
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 2: these days, you know, with kids who you know have

981
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:38,920
Speaker 2: grown up on a particular media diet, that might be

982
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 2: a little more niche in some regards. You know, you know,

983
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 2: one kid wants to play Thunder of the Barbarian. No

984
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 2: other kids are watching Thunder of the Barbarian anymore, but

985
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:52,479
Speaker 2: you know their parent insisted on handing this nineteen eighties

986
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 2: Hanna Barbara cartoon onto them, and that means they have

987
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 2: to maybe have a frustrating job of explaining like, no,

988
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,839
Speaker 2: it's not a lightsaber, Thundar has a different type of

989
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 2: light sun sort or whatever it was.

990
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:08,399
Speaker 3: Kids could be mean about this, Yeah, yeah, you don't know.

991
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 2: But then on the other hand, like thinking about what

992
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 2: are the differences between playing Star Wars and playing House

993
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 2: or Farm? Like House or Farm don't really have conflict

994
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 2: or factions. It's everyone, like you've been saying, it's communal,

995
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 2: everyone's working together, whereas Star Wars is all about the factions. Well,

996
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 2: like are you gonna be? You know, the good guys

997
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 2: are the bad guys? What are you? What's your lightsaber like?

998
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 2: And who gets to win? And so I can imagine

999
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 2: a scenario where that leads to more conflict.

1000
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 3: Just to set the record straight, I think farm can

1001
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 3: have all kinds of conflicts. Oh well, but how many

1002
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 3: the kids under how many?

1003
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, how many of those stories have they they actually

1004
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 2: engaged with? But in the Star Wars scenario, though, I

1005
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 2: will say that eventually a grown up may interfere and say,

1006
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 2: you're all Jedi, and you're all fighting invisible droids, stop

1007
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 2: hitting each other with sticks. That's what I did.

1008
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, But in that frame of mind. The authors go

1009
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 3: on to invoke the variable emphasis on collective social well

1010
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 3: being versus individualistic expression in different cultures and subcultures, noting

1011
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 3: that in general, if a culture or subculture places more

1012
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 3: value on social harmony and the avoidance of conflict, this

1013
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 3: could lead to a d emphasis on fantasy themes and

1014
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 3: pretend to play and a greater preference for realistic themes

1015
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 3: for the reason we just discussed. Not that it's always

1016
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 3: going to work out that way, but that's one thing

1017
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 3: that could be operative in making these distinctions. Now, there's

1018
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 3: a final question I want to come back to that

1019
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 3: we've sort of touched on a couple of times already,

1020
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 3: and this is something that comes up in the cross

1021
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 3: cultural section of that paper by Weisberg I mentioned, and

1022
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 3: this is the question of how should we think about

1023
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 3: pretend or imaginative play in a cultural context where adults

1024
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 3: and authority figures do not agree that the pretend elements

1025
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 3: are only pretend. So as a background, you know, we

1026
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 3: talked in part one about the question of can children

1027
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 3: really tell the difference between pretend and reality? This concern

1028
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 3: parents might have and even some you know, some researchers

1029
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 3: have had this concern, or I think that page was

1030
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:23,680
Speaker 3: concerned sometimes that children couldn't tell the difference between fantasy

1031
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 3: and reality, didn't know whether you know that the pretend

1032
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 3: game was really real or not. By and large, it

1033
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 3: seems like the research says mostly children can tell the difference.

1034
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 3: They make a few more errors along these lines than

1035
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 3: adults do, but generally they know what's real and what isn't.

1036
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 3: But that kind of question seems a lot more cut

1037
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 3: and dry when everybody, including like all the parents and

1038
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 3: adults will all agree that yeah, okay, so you're playing dinosaur,

1039
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 3: but you're not really a dinosaur right now, or yes,

1040
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 3: it's great that you have an imaginary companion and you

1041
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 3: play with them, that we're not being to discouraging of

1042
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 3: that at all. But there's not like literally actually another

1043
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 3: person here, and the child actually knows that the adults agree.

1044
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 3: But in the case of imaginary friends, there are some

1045
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 3: cultural contexts in which the adults might say, no, wait

1046
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 3: a minute, there may really be a being. There two

1047
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 3: versions of this, one positive and one with negative connotation.

1048
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 3: Starting it with the negative one, we've already mentioned research

1049
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 3: documenting how some Christian parents and teachers have regarded imaginary

1050
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 3: friends and companions as dangerous, not just because they are

1051
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 3: an unwelcome fantasy, but maybe because of the religious beliefs

1052
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 3: of the adults. They think this imaginary friend might be

1053
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 3: a demon. So the adult says the imaginary friend. So

1054
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 3: maybe the child thinks the imaginary friend is just pretend,

1055
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 3: but the adult says, no, the imaginary friend is real

1056
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 3: and is dangerous.

1057
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, Obviously you can imagine that the opos

1058
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 2: scenario as well, where it's thought of as an angel

1059
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 2: or more some sort of just you know, other harmless

1060
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 2: sort of like I don't know, Victorian notion of a fairy.

1061
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 3: Yes, in fact, I had an example of that. So

1062
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 3: the author here also mentioned studies documenting and I think

1063
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 3: you actually mentioned this in your section on imaginary companions

1064
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 3: in part two, But it's been documented in some East

1065
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 3: Indian households that children's imaginary friends or pretend to play

1066
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 3: are sometimes thought to be interactions with other worldly beings

1067
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 3: generally benign. It is generally not thought of as like

1068
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:38,480
Speaker 3: this is a demon that's dangerous, but like a benign

1069
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:42,400
Speaker 3: positive entity or memory from a past life. So in

1070
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,680
Speaker 3: this case, the adult may say the imaginary friend could

1071
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 3: be real, but that's fine. I feel like these kinds

1072
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 3: of situations really complicate the question of looking into do

1073
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 3: children know what is real versus what is pretend because

1074
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 3: surely their frame of reference for that has to be

1075
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 3: taken largely from the cues given by the adults around them, Right.

1076
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is this is a fascinating area to sort

1077
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 2: of like dip our toes into, like where you have

1078
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:17,960
Speaker 2: one hand, childhood understanding of the unseen world and creation

1079
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 2: of the unseen world, and then adult and larger cultural

1080
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 2: concepts of the unseen world. What happens when these two meet?

1081
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 2: Where do they coalesce? Where did they Where are they

1082
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:33,200
Speaker 2: at odds with each other? You know? And it's I mean,

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01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 2: it's a it's a it's a weird area because a

1084
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 2: lot of what is going on there's like one idea

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01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 2: of adulthood is that you and parenthood is that you

1086
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:45,439
Speaker 2: are telling children what is real. You're preparing them for

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01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:50,680
Speaker 2: the real world, the mundane world, the physical world, and

1088
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 2: often in very broad strokes, you know, when they're young,

1089
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 2: the idea of like, I want to keep you from dying.

1090
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 2: I need to keep you safe. But then you begin

1091
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 2: to if you begin doing introduce these other concepts of

1092
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 2: an unseen world of spiritual entities and deities like you know,

1093
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:09,720
Speaker 2: that that adds this entirely other complex layer. Like one.

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01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:12,600
Speaker 2: One example that comes to mind is the idea of

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01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 2: you know, of children saying, you know, talking about prayer

1096
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:19,520
Speaker 2: to God and speaking to God, and when the idea

1097
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:22,640
Speaker 2: is eventually introduced that God will speak back, you know what.

1098
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 2: And depending on what kind of emphasis is put on that,

1099
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:27,280
Speaker 2: and how that is explained or not explained to a

1100
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 2: child like that can create all sorts of of questions,

1101
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 2: you know, like well, why am I not hearing a

1102
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:35,800
Speaker 2: voice back? Or what if I do hear a voice back?

1103
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 2: And then how does that get folded? Up into everything.

1104
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:40,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think this really ties into a question. Actually,

1105
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 3: this I think is probably going to be a major

1106
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:45,439
Speaker 3: thing I want to talk about in the next part.

1107
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 3: If you're willing, Robbie willing to go to another part, un.

1108
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 2: Particularly with me. Yeah, I think so. We're already getting

1109
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:52,959
Speaker 2: some great feedback from listeners, so I think we should

1110
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 2: definitely move.

1111
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:57,320
Speaker 3: Forward, absolutely, keep it coming. Contact at Stuff to Blow

1112
01:03:57,320 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com. But anyway, I was going to say,

1113
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 3: it's the question of what, if anything, do children learn

1114
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:09,680
Speaker 3: about the real world from engaging with pretend scenarios. But yeah,

1115
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:11,680
Speaker 3: more to come in part four and who knows what

1116
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:14,040
Speaker 3: lies beyond. But I think that does it for today.

1117
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:16,280
Speaker 2: I think, so we'll go ahead and close it out here.

1118
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 2: But yeah, again, we'd love to hear from everyone out there,

1119
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:20,080
Speaker 2: just to remind it that Stuff to Go to Your

1120
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 2: Mind is primarily a signed some culture podcast with core

1121
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 2: episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Wednesdays we run a

1122
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 2: short form episode. The one last week was had to

1123
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 2: do with something from Stephen King's Children of the Corn.

1124
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 2: I think that was largely an accident that if we'd

1125
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:38,680
Speaker 2: covered the Children of the Corn and imaginary friends and

1126
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,520
Speaker 2: so forth in such close proximity to one another, and

1127
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 2: then on Fridays we just set aside time to just

1128
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:46,280
Speaker 2: talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema.

1129
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:50,760
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

1130
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:52,720
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

1131
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:54,960
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other to send

1132
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:58,800
Speaker 3: us your thoughts about childhood, pretend to play paracosms, and

1133
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 3: any of the rest, you can email us at contact

1134
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:11,000
Speaker 3: at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

1135
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

1136
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1137
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.