1 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: Thinking sideways. I don't under see it. You never know 2 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: the stories of things. We simply don't know the answer too. Well. 3 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: Hi there, this is thinking sideways and I'm Joe and 4 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: joined us always buy Steve. There we go. Okay, we're 5 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: ready to solve the mystery. Okay, I know, no intro 6 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,599 Speaker 1: straight into it. I like your way. Yeah. Yeah, so 7 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: this mystery, unfortunately, it's doesn't involve any bloodshed. There's no murders, 8 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: no supernatural stuff. I know. I'm kind of on a 9 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: no murder kick recently. H Yeah, so very true. Yeah, 10 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: this is non violent. This is a very cerebral mystery. 11 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: In early, very early in nineteen sixty four, about six 12 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: weeks after the assassination of John F. Ken, a KGB 13 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: agent who had been working for the CIA as an 14 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: agent for US as a as a double agent. No, well, 15 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: I guess if he's a KGB agent, he's sort of 16 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: a double agent. But then a double Asian is really 17 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: one who's a KGB agent is working for US, but 18 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: he's still a KGB agent loyal to they have and 19 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: passing disinformation to US. So he was working for US 20 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: as an Asian agent, but he really actually was a 21 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: double as although there's still controversy about that. That's one 22 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 1: of the mysteries we're going going to address tonight. How 23 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: much wood could it? Would? Chuck chuck chu chuck would 24 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: is what that sounded like. Okay, okay, So obviously this 25 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: is going to be a convoluted show and a little bit. 26 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: But here's here's the if you're worried about a long, long, 27 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: tedious show that grinds on forever. Now I'm going to 28 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: talk really really fast and we're going to get it 29 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: done with really fast. Okay, perfect, yeah, okay, all right, okay, 30 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: so let's go back to the beginning. Who is this guy? 31 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: His name was Urie A Sinko. Ury was part of 32 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: a security attachment for a Soviet delegation to disarm It's 33 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: a disarmament conference in Geneva, Switzerland. Okay, so he's Russians. Yep, Yep, 34 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: he's a Russian. Okay, remember the kg B. When he 35 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: was in Geneva, he passed a note secretly, of course, 36 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: to a US diplomatic requesting a meeting with the US representative, 37 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: which wasn't that you know, it means a spy. There's 38 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: the man who was responsible for recruiting Soviet agents in 39 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: Switzerland was a guy named Tenant Bagley who went by 40 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: the name Pete. So Pete Bagley, Uh yeah, Tennant's got 41 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: of cool. But apparently I don't know, he decided to 42 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: go by Pete instead, don't I imagine that he probably 43 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: got ridiculed a lot in school and I just said, oh, 44 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: my name is Pete. Yeah, or it's just easier, or 45 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: maybe well the guy is a spy. Maybe that was 46 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: his like spy name, Yeah, Tenant, Pete. Yeah. They usually 47 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,399 Speaker 1: give him names like you know, Albatross or by the way, 48 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: but in his case it was just Pete. Yeah. So anyway, 49 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: he was in charge of he and his team were 50 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: in charge of going after a diplomats, intelligence officers, military attachs, whatever, 51 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: and so he was notified. He flew to Geneva, he 52 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: wasn't there at the time, and arranged for a note 53 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: to be passed back to Nasenko which had a date, 54 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 1: time and address on it, especially by day and time. 55 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: He was waiting for Nasenko at a safe house and 56 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: Nasenko eventually showed up a little bit like claimed he 57 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: was trying to shake off a tail, so okay whatever, 58 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,239 Speaker 1: and said that he wanted to get some money from 59 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 1: the CIA. Apparently he was part of the KGB delegation 60 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: and he had sort of sort of like drank up. 61 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: The story varies a little bit. One is that the 62 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: money was stolen from him by a prostitute. Another one 63 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: is he just drank and gambled it all the way. 64 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: But essentially he was he had taken some official KGB 65 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: funds and kind of lost it, and he needed funds. 66 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: He didn't want to get caught. Yeah, his hand in 67 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: the till. He needed to replace the fund so he 68 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: offered to sell a manual to a KGB manual for 69 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: nine hundreds was Friends, which detailed how to follow how 70 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: the Soviets were able to follow US diplomats in Moscow 71 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: and other Russian places. Well, and that that was correct 72 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong, Joe. But that was kind of 73 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: a big problem for us when we were over there, 74 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 1: is our guys kept getting popped left, right and center 75 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: because the KGB operated differently and we kept falling for 76 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 1: their tricks. Well, yeah, exactly, we were. We were evidently 77 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: pretty easy to find. Uh yeah, and they they you mean, 78 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: Americans in Russia were easy to find. That's that's the 79 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: whole thing is it's so much easier for them to 80 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: go about their business in our society because we're a free, 81 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: open society whereas a closed totalitarian society, and so we 82 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: stick out obviously like a sort thung. We're very easy 83 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: to follow around and h And also on top of that, 84 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: they've proved to be very they proved to be very 85 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: very good at just spoofing us and and and like 86 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: you know, sending false false agents our direction and just 87 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: pumping us full of disinformation. And we've been every time 88 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: on the line exactly, yeah, we have. Yeah. And then 89 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: you know, along came along came James Angleton, who was 90 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: more of a skeptic in that regard. He was he 91 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: was a lot more, a lot more skeptical about all 92 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: these wonderful intelligence coups and everything. That made him less 93 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: than popular with the intelligence gathering arm of the CIA, 94 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: because you know, they just wanted to bring in lots 95 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 1: of good intel and get promotions out of it. But anyway, 96 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: I'm getting way ahead of myself. So Pete Bagley asked 97 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: Nasenko a standard list of questions. Number one, and of 98 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: course it's a Soviet union about to attack the US. Answer, No, 99 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: that's that's the one they're supposed to ask. First. Second 100 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 1: one asked, he asked if he wants to defect, and 101 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: the answer was no, because Nasenko said to their family 102 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: and kids in Moscow, he just wanted to get that 103 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: money so he could stay out of trouble. Bagley then 104 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: asked him if he wanted to work for the CIA 105 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: and make lots of money, and Nasenko said he'd think 106 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: about it. So anyway, the meeting when I heard about 107 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: two hours and then they parted ways. Two days later 108 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: they got together again, and this time the CENCO had 109 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: the KGB manual, which detailed how they followed our guys 110 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: in Moscow, and he had thought about it and decided 111 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: to be our agent. He returned to Moscow several days later. 112 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: He'd been given a code name super cool and code 113 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: name and like a secret password. And what was his 114 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: code name? A E foxtrot? Oh yeah, great name. I okay, 115 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: Well it's better than Pete got on one hand, on 116 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: the other like a fox trot, like a E f E. Yeah. 117 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: I have no idea where they call it that. I've 118 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: heard that said that all these these names they come 119 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: up with for they just have a randomly generated list, 120 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 1: and you just you know, when your name when you 121 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: come up, then you grab the next one off the top. 122 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: It's all random, so there's no connection to you that 123 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: can be drawn, all right, I guess that's fair. Yeah, okay. 124 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: So anyway, he returned with some KGB documents and he 125 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: agreed that just the spy and then eventually went back 126 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: to Moscow. Pete Bagley went back to Washington to report 127 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: on all this. He was quite excited about the whole thing. 128 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: One of the things about Nosenko's he worked, according to him, 129 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 1: at least he worked in the second chief director to 130 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: the KGB. This is a part of the KGB the 131 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: CIA had not even been aware of until a few 132 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: years before, and they knew nothing about it, and so 133 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: they were quite excited at it to have an agent 134 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: right in the heart of this whole thing. So Bagley 135 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: and his boss were very, very excited about the whole thing. Anyway, 136 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: let me take a quite quick side trip here. So 137 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: the CIA Soviet Russia division of which Pete Bagley was 138 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: a part, was the most important branch of their intelligence 139 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: collection department. So they've got various departments. The main most 140 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: important part of part of course, it's the part that 141 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: goes out and gets intelligence. And then they had like 142 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: the counterintelligence side, et cetera, et cetera. But of the 143 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: intelligence gathering part, the Soviet Russia division at that time 144 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: was the most important division the CIA. Sure it had 145 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: its own counterintelligence branch also, and eventually Pete Bagley wanted 146 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: up being ahead of the counterintelligence branch with that. And 147 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: there's another counterintelligence branch which is CIA Counterintelligence, which was 148 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: headed by James Jesus Angleton, who I'm sure you guys 149 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: have all heard of christ Hits, Yeah exactly, yeah, so yeah, 150 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: So what they focus on is preventing penetration of the 151 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: organization by foreign intelligence services. And also another one of 152 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: their jobs is to sort out information from disinformation. And 153 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: this leads to and so in other words, because foreign 154 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: intelligence services are constantly going to be trying to feed 155 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: you lies and manipulate your perception of what they're up to, 156 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: then you have to find a way to sort out 157 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: the validity of these people that come present themselves and 158 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: want to be your agent. So anyway, badly, as I 159 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 1: was saying, was back in Washington, he got a message 160 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 1: from Angleton requesting to have a meeting with him. I've 161 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 1: already told you who he is. James Jesus Angleton was 162 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: the head of CIA counter Intelligence. So Angleton in his office, 163 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: Angleton hands him a file about a Soviet defector, and 164 00:08:58,600 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: the account that I read of this, it didn't say 165 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: who the defector was, but I presume it's Anatotly Delitsen, 166 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,599 Speaker 1: who was an actual autentic Soviet defector who defected a 167 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: few years before Nosenko. The high points of Nosenka's story 168 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: were basically identical to the other file stories. So in 169 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: other words, it was it became kind of obvious that 170 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: Nosenka was probably just a dangle. He was just somebody 171 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: that had been dangled in front of our guys and 172 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: we took the bait and so and so he was probably, 173 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: in Angleton's opinion, he was almost certainly a double Asian 174 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: and not for real. So he was just going to 175 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: pass us dense information. So he's basically just regurgitating a 176 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: story that they'd used on us, or somebody had told 177 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,959 Speaker 1: us before. Then. Yeah, because you know, it's like it's like, 178 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: as one guy put it, it's like fly fishing, you know, 179 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: you know, you try a lure and you send it 180 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 1: out there. If it doesn't work, you change lures and 181 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: you just keep going like that until the fish bites. 182 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: And you know you've got a good lure, so let's 183 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 1: start using that lure a lot. And that's what they do. 184 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:55,559 Speaker 1: And so, yeah, one of the one of the interesting 185 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: things is like one of the things that the KGB 186 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 1: knows that we like to see is an agentist got 187 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: a little bit of a problem with either you know, 188 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,719 Speaker 1: Booze or women or something like that, some weakness. It's 189 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: going to make him spend too much money or whatever. 190 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 1: And then of course he's going to need to turn 191 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: to us for money in terms for secrets and stuff 192 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: like that. And so that was definitely a part of 193 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: Nasenko's story, Booze, the women, the whole thing. Pete Bagley 194 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: was very disappointed because he was very excited about landing 195 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: this big fish. Angleton, on the other hand, felt like, well, 196 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: you know, we can he's still useful. We could pass 197 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: we could pass a little misinformation back through him to 198 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: the KGB. So it's not all it's not all bad. 199 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: That's where the story leaves out. For the time being, 200 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: they kept him on a payroll, but they labeled his 201 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: information as untrustworthy. Of course, of course they didn't go 202 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: tell him that. They made him believe that they still 203 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 1: believed his story. But anyway, he was back in Russia. 204 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: Time goes by, and as I said earlier, about six 205 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: weeks century JFK is assassinated. He send he sends a 206 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: message wanted, requesting a meeting again in Geneva, and when 207 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: he meets with Bagley this time, he wants to defect. Okay, 208 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: so how how long is that after like our first encounter, 209 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: about a year and a half, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, 210 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. Oh yeah, you know, I don't think 211 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: I said what the day it was the day it 212 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: was like June nineteen sixty two when he first made 213 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: contact with us. Oh okay, So I'm glad you clarified that. 214 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: For some reason, to me, it was a much shorter 215 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: time span. And I think it's just because everything starts 216 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: up about where you're you're at right now, and yeah, 217 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: some of the details I think I go over. Yeah. Yeah, 218 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: so now he'd been in our employee feeding sbs for 219 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 1: about you know, a year and a half, and we've 220 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 1: been feeding mbs. Oh yeah, of course, yeah, And that's 221 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: there's great ways you can do that. You know, if 222 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: you know this guy's at double you can do you 223 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: can do things like request information about this, about that, 224 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: and say you're like super interested exactly so to give 225 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: them an idea of of you know, of what we're 226 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: wondering about your military grade beatles. Uhh exactly. Yeah, we'd 227 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: like to know about ice fishing off your eastern coast. Uh, 228 00:11:55,040 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: you just ran how many information about that? Oh? You 229 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: do so one of the yeah, and the spy. In 230 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 1: the spy business, every little, every teeny little tidbit gets 231 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: gets considered, so you know, and so any little piece 232 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: of BS that you can feed him is valuable. So 233 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: he says he wants to defect, and so he cabled 234 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: back to vaguely cable back to CIA headquarters and and 235 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: even though this guy was obviously a double Asian, they 236 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,359 Speaker 1: had and they sad, he said, leting him defect. Unfortunately, 237 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: oh you know, I left out the most important part. 238 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: Let me get let me go back here for a sec. 239 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: He said he wanted to defect, and he said that 240 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: the reason he wanted to defect is that he was 241 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,599 Speaker 1: that he had come into suspicion and even more importantly, 242 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: he said that he knew something about Lee Harvey Oswald, Right, 243 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: that's right, Okay, the assassination connections, that's right. So yeah, 244 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: so the department that he worked for, uh, in the 245 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: in that department, subdepartment within that is what's called the 246 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: Tourist Bureau. And what they're and their job is there, 247 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: it's a counterintelligence thing. And underneath that counterintelligence division, they 248 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: there are agents in their own departments who just follow 249 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: around journalists and the Western diplomats and tourists who are 250 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: in actually in the Soviet Union, trying to recruit them 251 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: and been also basically spying on them. So since Oswald 252 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: wasn't an American in Russia, he would have fallen into 253 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: the purview of this guy's buried department. And and so 254 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: that made it must have made him stand out even more, 255 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: is you know, curiosity to them. Yeah, and you know 256 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: somebody a potentially valuable recruit, perhaps, you know, assassin who 257 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: knows the Senko says that he was actually assigned to 258 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 1: watch Oswald wile Oswald was there. And then after the assassination, 259 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: Oswald of course by the time obviously had left the 260 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: Soviet Union. Yeah, yeah, quite obviously a couple months. Yeah, yeah, 261 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: And so after the assassination, he was apparently assigned to 262 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: go through all of his KGB files and interview interview 263 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: everybody and you know, just find out precisely, you know, 264 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: who talked to him and what then, and who had 265 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: made contact with him, and if if there really was 266 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 1: any sort of KGB control over this guy over Oswald. Sure, 267 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: and of course he reported absolutely not well, and that 268 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: would that would be really important for them to know 269 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: because if they are some way responsible for the assassination 270 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: of an American president at a time where we were 271 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: always ready with the thumb on the big red button, Yeah, 272 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: there's another world going on. That's not something you want 273 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: to have happened or have anybody find out about. Yeah. 274 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: Even though he was untrusted, he didn't really have a 275 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: lot of value to us as a defector. Uh. And 276 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: this one clear up to the CA director Richard Hilmes, 277 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: he was a director at the time, he authorized the 278 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: affection because otherwise they could have been accused of suppressing 279 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: information relevant to the assassinationw So, so they smuggled him, 280 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: smuggled them out of Switzerland on a military plane, got 281 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: them back to the States, and at this point they 282 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: were wondering exactly what to do with them, so they 283 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: did the obvious thing. They had locked him up, Yeah, 284 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: having a dungeons. Yeah yeah. They built a little special 285 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: cell forum in the basement of a house in Washington 286 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: suburbs and basically locked him up and interrogated him for 287 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: about three and a half years. Wow. Yeah, Yeah, they 288 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: went after him quite a bit. It's a long interrogation. Yeah, yeah, 289 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: especially for somebody who came to you and said, hey, 290 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: we I want to defect to America because I have 291 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: this information. Well there's some issues though, and I don't 292 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: know if you were going to get to this, Joe, 293 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: But one of the things that I know really prompted 294 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: them to go ahead and lock him up initially was 295 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: the fact that his reason for wanting to defect was 296 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: he had gotten correct me if I'm wrong here, is 297 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: that he had gotten a cable saying come back to Moscow, 298 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: at which point he was worried they'd figured out he 299 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: was playing the game and he was going to be killed. 300 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: But when we had everybody look into it, there was 301 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: no record of the request this cable. Yeah, it took 302 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: it took a little while to sort that out. I think, 303 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, I guess it's just the three years 304 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: is like a really long time. Yeah, it's a long time. Yeah. 305 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's definitely above and beyond. Yeah, it sounds like, 306 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: you know, and and I don't think we're ever going 307 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: to get to the bottom quite exactly why he was 308 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: locked up and interrogated for quite that long of a time. 309 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: They did catch him out in a couple of them, 310 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: a couple of significant lives, actually more than a couple. 311 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: One was one was about the cable, the telegram recalling him, 312 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: and another significant aside about that is that the FBI 313 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: had a major source called Fedora, and he was a 314 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: he was a Soviet diplomat in New York and that 315 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: was his code named Fedora. That's not his Russian name. 316 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: But so they'd been this this guy, Fedora was a 317 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: double agent also and they didn't know it, of course, 318 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: and he'd been feeding them disinformation for years. Yeah, so Fedora. 319 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: So Fedora comes along and they're they're asking him if 320 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: he knows anything about Nosenko, and he's saying, well, you know, 321 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: the the chief of the KGB KGB office in New 322 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: York had called a meeting in a bunch of kg 323 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: KGB agents and also Fedora, who was a diplomat but 324 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,719 Speaker 1: still a high level Russian so he was in on 325 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: this and and spelled out a few details, a lot 326 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: of relevant details actually, like his rank and the KGB 327 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: lieutenant colonel, which it later turned out he'd been lying about. 328 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: Nasenko admitted that under interrogation, and also he confirmed that yes, 329 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: there had indeed been a telegram recalling him. He'd heard 330 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: about that also, you know, and of course this was 331 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 1: like later like sort of you know, backfart of Fedora 332 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 1: a little bit, because it sort of, you know, after 333 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: Nosenko confessed that he'd been lying about this stuff, suddenly 334 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: people are looking at Fedora and thinking, gee, gosh, why 335 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 1: exactly are you telling us this stuff which corroborates his 336 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: story when we know specifically that this stuff was a 337 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: lot because he admitted it. And that's and and the 338 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 1: fact that Fedora eventually was proven to be a double 339 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: agent who was trying to back up his story sort 340 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: of as another nail and uring Cenko's coffin. Yeah, Fodor 341 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: was obviously a spy, so that that makes that makes 342 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: the CENCO a double as two, I know, all right. 343 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: So anyway, so they interrogated in for three and a 344 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: half years. And by the way, this was not done, 345 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: h not done just like unauthorized or anything like that. 346 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: Richard Helms, again director of the CIA, went to the 347 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: Department of Justice, which was headed by Robert F. Kennedy, 348 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: JFK's brother, and got permission to lock this guy up 349 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:34,719 Speaker 1: and detain him for as long as need be to 350 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 1: try to ring any information out of him. They were 351 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: accused later on of withholding information from the FBI and 352 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: from the Warren Commission, which was investigating the JFK assassination, 353 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: but Helms had actually met with Chief Justice Earl Warren 354 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: explained to him the reason why because Warren had heard 355 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 1: about the CENCO and was thinking about how calling him 356 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 1: to testify and explain to him why he would not 357 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: be a reliable witness. And so but nonetheless, I mean 358 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: still to this day there's there's people who accuse the 359 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: CIA of imprisoning him specifically to keep him from the FBI, 360 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: the Commission. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, because you know, 361 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: people love a good conspiracy theory, especially concerning GfK. Yeah. 362 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: JFK is one of the longest running I feel conspiracy theory. 363 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: Oh god, yeah, oh yeah, I didn't get into that. 364 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: His assassinate that's another mystery we need to solve, by 365 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: the way, real quickly. GfK assassination. He was assassinated by 366 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: Lee Harvey Oswald. Lee Harvey Oswald was a hardcore communist 367 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: and the devote of Fidel Castro, and you know, probably 368 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: not quite too straight in the head. But what about 369 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: the woman in the babushka, what about the four shooters? Yeah, 370 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: this is one area where the second may have been 371 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: telling the truth. And he was asked about about whether 372 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: the kgb A contacted Oswald tried to recruit him, and 373 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: what he said was that he had been had been watched, obviously, 374 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: and it had been decided that he was not quite 375 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: smart enough and too unstable to really be good effective 376 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: as so sure, and that's fair. That's yeah, that sounds 377 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,360 Speaker 1: plausible to me. Probably accurate. Yeah, it's it's pretty probably 378 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: accurate assessment. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, okay, and 379 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: now we sell the JFK assassination. Let's get back to 380 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: this thing. Let me go to the next one. I know, 381 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 1: I know who else was assassinated and Nko. Eventually, as 382 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: I said, confessed had lied about certain things, but he 383 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: never completely recanned his entire story. Eventually he was released. 384 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: He was given a large sum of money and a 385 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: new identity and relocated. And the most mysterious or one 386 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: of the mysterious, most mysterious parts of this whole thing 387 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 1: is he was quote unquote rehabilitated by the CIA, which 388 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: is like and I've got and I've heard some declassified 389 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 1: documents like I've got I've got some memos from Angleton 390 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: to the FBI, for example, detailing and great detail, all 391 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: the many many reasons why no sinko and it should 392 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: not be believed when you look at it. It's pretty dumb, 393 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: stated is to Nasenko's case. And actually, if if our 394 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 1: listeners are lucky, I'll post a couple of those on 395 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: our websites. Yeah, they'red of it's kind of funny there. 396 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 1: They're kind of old and smudgie. They were just recently 397 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: the classified, old and smudgie with a lot of markings 398 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 1: all over them and stuff. But there some of them 399 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: are pretty interesting and eye opening. But anyway, I guess 400 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: you know, if you have somebody in the basement locked 401 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,199 Speaker 1: up for three and a half years, and you're like 402 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: torturing them for information for three and a half years. 403 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: When you release them, it behooves you to say, oh, no, 404 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: they're rehabilitated and they're never going to talk about this ever, 405 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: then saying like no, this person is still like maybe dangerous, 406 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 1: but we're just gonna like release them anyways. Yeah, you know, 407 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: I think if you torture somebody enough, they're going to 408 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: get rehabilitated to what you want. I am maybe. Well, 409 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: then the other thing is, you know, at what point 410 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: do you realize that, Wow, we've had this guy here 411 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: for a long time and he hasn't changed the story anymore. 412 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: Should we stop or Stockholm syndrome? Well do we just 413 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: keep going? Yeah, a certain point, you know, it's like, 414 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: you know, this guy quite likely is still lying to 415 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: you about some major things. Maybe, but obviously he's not 416 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 1: going to break so you know after three and a 417 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: half years, so it's just time to cut to the chase. 418 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: Or he does, right and he says, no, I was lying. 419 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: I was lying about everything. Can you release me now? 420 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: Because it's been three and a half years and in 421 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: dungeon in a basement. Yeah, I'm kind of tired of this, 422 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: tired of it. Yeah, No, you're totally right. You're totally right. 423 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: You're totally right about everything. You know that. I would 424 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: say that if I were in the basement for three 425 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: and a half years. Yeah, absolutely, I would agree with whatever. 426 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 1: If you said, yeah, you are you know, you're a 427 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: North Korean spy, I would say, yep, yeah, is that 428 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: going to make you release me? Okay? Yeah, I got 429 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: to tell you. If I'm a spy and they and 430 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: they put me in the torture chamber, I'm going to 431 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: just say, hey, dude, no need, I'll tell you whatever 432 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: you want to know. I'm a spy. Why none of 433 00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: us would make good spies? Yeah, exam yeah, yeah. Well 434 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: but anyway, this is where the whole thing gets turned 435 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 1: upside down because everybody, I mean Angleton and the head 436 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 1: of the and Richard Helms, head of the CIA, and 437 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: look at the head of the Soviet Russian Division, and 438 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: also his underlying Pete Bagley. Every all of them were 439 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: totally convinced that Nosenka was a double agent, and they 440 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: had good reason to believe so, and h and yet 441 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: when I say that Nosenka was rehabilitated, what that means 442 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: is basically, the CIA changed their minds and decided, you know, 443 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: he's for real after all, and he's a good guy, 444 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 1: and so they, like I said, they let him go. 445 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: And they actually he wound up eventually getting getting well 446 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 1: paid to be a counter intelligence consultant to the CIA. Meantime, Yeah, 447 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: the chief, the head of the Soviet Russian Division was 448 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: transferred off to some other backwater somewhere. Pete Bagley was 449 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: also passed over for promotion, transferred up to a backwater somewhere. 450 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: Angleton was cashiered, even though he had nothing to do 451 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: with the imprisonment with the guys that had actually had 452 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: some to do with the imprisonment. Well, maybe that's kind 453 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 1: of an interesting mystery, is how exactly is it that 454 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 1: despite all the massive evidence of the contrary, they just 455 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: decided that he was there for it was their boy, 456 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: and they actually hired him to be a consultant. Yeah, 457 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: that's that's a mystery. Again, I think that I don't 458 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: mean to interrupt your Joe, but again I think that 459 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: somebody finally realized, you've had this guy for three and 460 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: a half years, You've got nothing out of him. Yeah, 461 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: it's time to cut him loose and we're not going 462 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: to have egg on our face. We've got to do 463 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: something to pretend or attempt to put a band aid 464 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: on this and make it look okay. Well, you know, 465 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: and that could be it. I mean, that's that's you know, 466 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: there's a couple of ways of looking at the purge. 467 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: That's the Soviet Russian Division purge. One is that the 468 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: mole triumph to manage to like, you know, kill everybody 469 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 1: that stood stood in his path, and that was a 470 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: threat to him, and God, all the people who are 471 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: threatening him removed. That's one way of looking at it, 472 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: or another way of looking at it is like you say, 473 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: when this came out, it was it was kind of controversial. 474 00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: This is the only person who'd ever been in prisoned 475 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: by the CIA, much less for three and a half years, 476 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: so they might have decided it was, you know, was 477 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: maybe the best thing to do was to sort of 478 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: cashier the people are responsible for this whole thing and 479 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: just pretend like, yeah, it's all in the up and up. 480 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: They did wrong. We love you, we love you Ury. 481 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: So maybe that is, as you say, maybe that is 482 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: what they were doing. Well, we will hang on a 483 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 1: second here. I don't suddenly saying the mole. So was 484 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 1: Uri saying the whole time that there was a mole 485 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: in the CIA? Or no? Or is this just some 486 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 1: people have said there was a mole in the mole? 487 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: Or is the mall no? Now, you're obviously wouldn't have 488 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: been a very good mole since nobody ever believed him. Yeah, yeah, Angleton, 489 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: Angleton firmly believed in the male that there was a 490 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 1: mole and there and there's other evidence to that. I'd 491 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: actually I get to that in a second. But yeah, 492 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: it's quite possible if there was a mole. But like 493 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: I said, the other possibility is just that the CIA 494 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: decided to do play politics and just cashier these people 495 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: to sort of forestall scandal. Yeah, I guess. You know, 496 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 1: if you've got somebody for three and a half years, right, Yeah, 497 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: and their story isn't changing and it turns out that 498 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: perhaps they've been innocent this whole time, how do you 499 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 1: deal with that? Yeah? You know, how do you save face? You? 500 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 1: You know, say, all these people are getting older, they're 501 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 1: going to go take over these backwater places. That's going 502 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: to take some early retirement. And this person that we've 503 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 1: been holding for three and a half years, is getting 504 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: a very large cast cash settlement and gets to go 505 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 1: live a totally normal life. That's what's happening. That's how 506 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: we're going to make this go away. Yeah, I don't 507 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: think that. I don't think that anybody. It's hard for 508 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 1: me to believe that anybody ever thought that he was 509 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: innocent of all charges or that he was totally on 510 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: the up and up and not a double agent. Sure, 511 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: but worthy of being held for three and a half years. 512 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: At a certain point he had to be like go 513 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: obviously he had to be. I mean, but the major 514 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: players involved, including Angleton and Pete Bagley, always believed, you know, 515 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: after that, that he was he was a double agent, 516 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: and certainly there was good reason for that was that, 517 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: I guess you know. My question then is like was 518 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: that normal treatment of double agents? Like if they capture 519 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: double agent agent, did they just throw them in normal jail? 520 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: Did they like what did they do with that? You know? Well, 521 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 1: generally speaking, if you have a double agent, they're usually 522 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 1: living overseas. So somebody that's pretending to, like, say, work 523 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 1: for the KGB, he's working with the KGB, but pretending 524 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: to work for you while he's actually working for them. Still. Sure, 525 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: so you're not going to capture and throw them or 526 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: jail or anything like that. You're just usually just gonna 527 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 1: be mysterious. Depth is how do you take care of that? 528 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: I would I would presume. No, you don't even do that. 529 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: You you know, you just feed them misinformation again by 530 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: by you let them feed you disinformation, thinking that they're 531 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: succeeding and misleading you even though they're not. Come on, 532 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,400 Speaker 1: come on, I'm going. I'm going with the bored identity thing. 533 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 1: That's when you kill them. That's more fun. I know, 534 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: I like that better too. I'm sure it happens every 535 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 1: now and again, but it's actually more profitable to do 536 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: stuff like like feed them misinformation, like I was saying earlier, 537 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: by just the questions that you asked them. You can 538 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 1: just lead them, sure, but anyway, so last of all, 539 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: I don't want to stretch this on forever. We can 540 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: go back and forth, and we're in this whole wilderness 541 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 1: of mirrors thing, and who the hell knows, I mean, 542 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: it's really hard to know. But yeah, but as far 543 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: as the existence of the mole goes, I mean, we've 544 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 1: had moles in the CIA before there was there was 545 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: Kim Philby back in the late forties. He was he 546 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,880 Speaker 1: was a British liaison to the CIA. He turned out 547 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: to be a Soviet agent and of course more recently 548 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: too late to be the mole in this case. But 549 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: Aldra James started working in the late sixties for the CIA. 550 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: That was Did you've heard of Alder James? Right? I 551 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: like that. Joe keep saying these names like you and 552 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: I actually think did they make they made a movie 553 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: about this guy about five or ten years ago? Didn't 554 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: his names there? Philby? Uh No, the second guy, the 555 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: one Alder James. Yeah, because he was doing he was 556 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: a mole and doing this for thirty years or something, 557 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: some horrendous amount of time. I don't know if he 558 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: thirty years, but it was a long time. And what 559 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: was most amazing about it was how brazen the guy was. 560 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: I'd say, for argument's sake that I have no idea 561 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: what you're talking about. I mean, of course I know 562 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: what you're talking about. Just for our listeners, precisely, precisely 563 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: what are you talking I'll do this really briefly, because 564 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: he's obviously not the mole in question here. He's never 565 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: uncovered that we know of, but you never know. Sometimes 566 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: moles are uncovered and they're just quietly, quietly sent out 567 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: the pasture, you know, because they don't want to scandal James. 568 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: So let's go to Audre James. He joined the CIA, 569 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: I believe in nineteen sixty nine, and he was working 570 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: as an analyst. And it's been a while, so I've 571 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: actually forgotten a lot of the details, but some of 572 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: the most I remember some of the most hilarious details, 573 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: which is that for he worked in the office at 574 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: Langley and he would actually just walk out of the 575 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: building some days with grocery bags full of secret documents 576 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: into the Russians. So the guy drove the guy was, 577 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: you know, a civil servant, but he drove a Jaguar 578 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: and he had a six hundred thousand dollars house that 579 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: he paid for with cash. And he's like, they didn't 580 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: catch him, and they didn't catch him for years, and 581 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: so I mean, how competent these guys are? Serious he 582 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: did it was ten twenty years something like that. Yeah, 583 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: I mean I have a long time. Yeah, I mean 584 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: I have not spent a while, and I have not 585 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: brushed up in my recollection. The whole thing. But the 586 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: whole thing was the scandalous thing about it was not 587 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: just the secrets, but how easy it was and how 588 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: crazy the guy was, and then the general incompetence of 589 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: the people that were supposed to keep an eye for 590 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: stuff like this. Okay, yeah, so this maybe more off. 591 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: Kim Phillby real quick like Kim Phillbby was a rising 592 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: star in six the Brittish Secret Service. He was son 593 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: of Sir Harold Phillby, who was the lawrence of Arabia 594 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: of the Saywudi clan. Yeah, I know he've heard of 595 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: all even you know all that stuff, right, So he 596 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: was a son of Harold Phillyby. He was a rising star. 597 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: It was almost a certainty that he would be the 598 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: next director of m I six and for a time 599 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: he was sent out to be liaison with the CIA, 600 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: which had been recently formed. The CIA did not start 601 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,959 Speaker 1: until nineteen forty seven, and so he spent a lot 602 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: of time over here from forty seven to nineteen fifty 603 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: helping us get started and serving as a liaison between 604 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: the two services, giving us advice and spending a lot 605 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,239 Speaker 1: of time talking with us, especially with Angleton. I think 606 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: this is probably a formative searing experience for Angleton. Spent 607 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: a lot of time talking with James Angleton about what 608 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: was going on, and of course afterwards Angleton realized he'd 609 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: been had. Maybe that was what made him so suspicious 610 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: about this kind of second future. So anyway, he wasn't old. 611 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: But anyway between that time, of course there exists the 612 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: possibility of other moles too. And the thing about about 613 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: a mole is that if you're trying to penetrate a 614 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: service or deceive a service, like to seea what you 615 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: need to have, what's really kind of essential, is to 616 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: have feedback. You need to know that you're actually your 617 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: story is believed and that your ruse is working. And 618 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: so otherwise you just keep trying the same old thing 619 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: over and over again and it's not working and you 620 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: don't even realize it's not working or why it's not working. 621 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: So that doesn't so the fact that you know that 622 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: doesn't prove anything necessarily. But but what's interesting about the 623 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: no Cenco case is that as far as the Soviets 624 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: knew he was a valid disinformation agent, we had recruited him, 625 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: he was feeding SBS that that in a sense, in 626 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: a sense that essentially made him a valuable person. And 627 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: yet suddenly they decide we're gonna make We're going to 628 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: have the guide defect over to our side to argue 629 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 1: the case for why Oswald had nothing to do with 630 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: the kg B. So that would argue for the existence 631 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: of the mole, because the mole had the mole was 632 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: aware that we didn't trust the CENCO anyway and that 633 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: we were unsure that he was really not a double agent. 634 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: So I guess at that point that that mole would 635 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: have been like pretty high up, it would have been. 636 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: He would have been yeah, yeah, pretty high up. Yeah, 637 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: not just like a run of the mill agent. No, no, no, obviously, 638 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: because there's compartmentalization. Although then again, considering some of the 639 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: stuff that's like with the Ames case, who they put 640 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,479 Speaker 1: this stuff on this in the company newsletter comes all 641 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: around line this year be sure if you run into Nansenko. 642 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: So if it was assuming that goes purpose, assuming he 643 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: was sent and the purpose of his being sent was 644 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: to reassure us that he had had no that Oswald 645 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: had no part in the assassination, no connection to them, Yeah, 646 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: then then it would makes sense because he would be 647 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: upond that would be easily sacrificed because they knew, through 648 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: the existence of their feedback device, the mole, they knew 649 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: he was of no value to them anyway. Sure, so yeah, 650 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: otherwise they're sacrificing a valuable asset for no particular reason. 651 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: All right, So that's one argument for the existence of 652 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: the mold. Supposing supposing also that they wanted to send 653 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: him to discredit embarrass the CIA. Supposing they know through 654 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: their asset on on our side, they know that he 655 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: is not not particularly believed or trusted. So they know 656 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: that when he shows up with his story about Oswald 657 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: and how he knew Oswald and this, did this back, 658 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: that did all this investigation of Oswald, and then the 659 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: CIA of course thinks it's BS and so they don't 660 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: and so they don't take him to the Warren Commission 661 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: or the FBI or anybody else to testify. Later on, 662 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 1: he calls a press conference and says, hey, you know, 663 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: I showed up to the CIA headquarters and with all 664 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: this information about Oswald, and you know, they just tried 665 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: to shut me up. They didn't let me testify before 666 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: the Warren Commission, and that can then that could be 667 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: just one more way of sowing confusion and suspicion and 668 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories, which is yet another So again, and this 669 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 1: is all pure speculation on my part, sure, but they 670 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: would both sort of semi support the existence. Certainly is 671 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,919 Speaker 1: the possibility the existence of a mole in the ranks 672 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: of the CIA. So I guess the big mystery here 673 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: is was there a mole? And if there was, who 674 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: was it? All Right, here's the here's the part where 675 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: we flip a coin. Okay, anybody got a quarter? No? Yeah, okay, 676 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: all right, heads, heads, it's okay. There was a molemal yeah, yeah. 677 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: I think that's how that's how we're kind of this. 678 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: We are kind of in the wilderness and mirrors here. 679 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 1: So sometimes tails meets heads, yeah, yeah, you never know, 680 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: sometimes it lands on its side. Yeah, that happens a 681 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: lot does Yeah. So anyway, and in researching this thing, 682 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: I've come across some interesting declassified documents, like some memos 683 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: from Angleton to the FBI. So some of them I 684 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: still I'm still actually rooting to a lot of There's 685 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: there's quite a few of them out there. I obviously 686 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: we're not going to put them all out there in 687 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 1: the website. Stuff. I thought it might be interesting to 688 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: put one or two out there, so we'll have links 689 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: to those things for you guys to look at. Where 690 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: are we going to have links for that. We're going 691 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,359 Speaker 1: to have those like on our website, I think, which 692 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com if you want to, 693 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: If you want to send us an email, send us 694 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: an email at Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. 695 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 1: You can find us an iTunes, find us on Facebook. 696 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: Oh and yes, of course you can find us on Stitcher. Anyway. 697 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,720 Speaker 1: That's it for now, so long everybody, Thanks a lot, guys, Bye, 698 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: feel so unfinished