1 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to pathology with doctor Priya. Doctor Honey, get on 2 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: in here. We got something to talk about. I'm gonna 3 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: tell you we experienced something so incredible and we're fortunate 4 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: to be able to do it together. 5 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 2: Beyond beyond. I'm rarely at a loss for words, but 6 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 2: I don't even know how to capture it in words. 7 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 2: It was so great. 8 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: I had a chance to watch your face when something 9 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: happened that I didn't know you when you were three 10 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: or four, but I saw that little girl's face as 11 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: plain as day. Y'all listen. We spent the weekend in 12 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania at a wildlife park called Lake Tobias. 13 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 2: Magical, amazing, incredible, whatever you want to say, it just beyond. 14 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 2: You can't put it into words, though you can't. 15 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: And the fact that we got to experience with friends, 16 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: I think made it so much more just awesome to 17 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: me and awe inspiring. So the Wildlife CSI Academy had 18 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: its first training inside of a zoo and the first 19 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: training was done by Scott Duffy, former FBI Senior Person 20 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: in charge of Delaware, and he did interviewing and how 21 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: do you interview a bank robber versus a poacher. And 22 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: then we had a special guest, and this is where 23 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: I saw Doctor Pria just become childlike in the best 24 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: possible way. It was a baby kangaroo. 25 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 2: Oh god, Mike, I just can't. I had a dream 26 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 2: about him that I brought him home, and my husband 27 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 2: expected it because he expects that kind of thing in 28 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 2: real life, So it was unreal. Chester. I don't know. 29 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 2: I'm gonna name my next pet Chester because I just 30 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 2: need to carry on that legacy at home. He was 31 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 2: just the best. Chester, the nine month old kangaroo. 32 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: So sweet and just I don't know. He just affected 33 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 1: everybody after. 34 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 2: And he's so soft. I didn't understand how soft a 35 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 2: baby kangaroo was and playful. 36 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: Just yes, gentle, and I don't know. I'm telling you. 37 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: If I thought for a minute I could have successfully 38 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: got him out of there and threw tsa, I would 39 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: have done it. 40 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 2: I'm not sure success I was about to. Whether I'd 41 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 2: have been successful or not is a different story. 42 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: I would have been pretty obvious. 43 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: Probably the closest I've ever come to like committing a crime. 44 00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 2: It is stealing one of those animals there. 45 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: It was amazing, and Chester wasn't the only one, y'all. 46 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you, you know, there's so many animals 47 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: there that just knocked me at Oh, the. 48 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 2: Baby, Oliver, the giraffe. I could go on and on. 49 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,959 Speaker 1: I appreciate you being there, And here's a testament to you. 50 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: With all of your training and all of your accolades 51 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: and all of your education, you came ready to learn, 52 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: open to learn. Oh but I appreciate that because you 53 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: and I both know there's some people playing at the 54 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: highest level that don't think they need it, they don't 55 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: think there's anything else they can learn. And this particular weekend, 56 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: I mean, the play and field was even you were 57 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: in class with police officers and criminal justice students and civilians, 58 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: and y'all all learned. It was fantastic. 59 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: We all learned from each other. And I think, you know, 60 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 2: I think it's shortsighted to say that we all know everything, 61 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 2: even in forensics, even in crime scene, even in autopsy. 62 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 2: That's that's ridiculous. 63 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: You know, parenting, it doesn't matter what it is. You 64 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: don't know everything, and you need help. 65 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 2: Nothing is as humbling as parenting. We'll just leave that aside. 66 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you need help, and you need help. You 67 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: know it was great, but thank you again. 68 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 2: Oh no, it was an honor. And like the audience 69 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 2: members who have followed cases often way more closely than 70 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 2: I have because I'm working on my personal you know, 71 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 2: legal cases and autopsies and whatnot, I don't get the 72 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 2: chance to really deep dive like they do. So it 73 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: was you know, learning from everybody at every level. 74 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: And I tell you, I thought it was just an 75 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: incredible experience that we got to honor doctor Jane Goodall 76 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: while we were all there surrounded by animals. 77 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 2: Her loss hit me hard as I was driving down, 78 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: and I think, you know, it was a calling, right 79 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,239 Speaker 2: like we all sort of got there and reassessed and said, okay, 80 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: we have to push forward in her honor and to 81 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 2: keep that work alive. I think others have asked me 82 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 2: how I met you, and I said, you know, we 83 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 2: met through Nancy and online, but what brought us together 84 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 2: was our love for animals and sort of bridging our 85 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: forensic expertise into wildlife and animal trade. And I was 86 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,559 Speaker 2: shocked to find out that even Lake Tobias had had 87 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 2: animals stolen. You know, so we think about international borders 88 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 2: this and that this is middle of Pennsylvania, very small 89 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: town and even then they're affected by theft and animal 90 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 2: trade and you know that kind of thing, so everybody 91 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 2: has to keep their eyes and ears open. It wasn't 92 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 2: just you know, big airports or international borders, which really 93 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 2: surprised me and then made me rethink my goals of 94 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 2: bringing Chester home. 95 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: But well, I hate to say it, but that case 96 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: would have been solved pretty quickly. I know. 97 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 2: I wouldn't would have thrown me under the buff and 98 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 2: a heartbeat, there's a stolen animal. I'm probably the first 99 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: ten suspense. 100 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: Oh Mercy. Well, it was a tremendous time and I 101 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:14,679 Speaker 1: can't wait for the next one. 102 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 2: In any case, Yeah, you know, perfect segue into exploring. 103 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: More right, yes, and sadly shifting gears to a topic 104 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: that's not as much fun but equally as interesting. I 105 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: asked you to kind of think about talking about doing 106 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: autopsies where the danger is for the medical examiner, because 107 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: I think that's something a lot of people don't think about. 108 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: Because I remember when COVID first hit, we didn't really 109 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: know what is this thing, and we had some desks 110 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: that they would say was natural and you know, the 111 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: Emmy would you know want to come out. We didn't 112 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: even want to go in that house because we were like, oh, 113 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 1: they got COVID and we weren't sure what does that mean? 114 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 1: And you're having to open the person up. 115 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 2: Oh my god. So you know, I'll start with COVID 116 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 2: because I think that's the most tangible. But I mean 117 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: going back as a medical student, as a pathology resident 118 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 2: than a forensic pathology fellow. I trained in big areas 119 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 2: right like Philadelphia and then Baltimore. So my background, my 120 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 2: med school background, and clinical backgrounds all in Philadelphia, and 121 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 2: then I transitioned back to be closer to my family 122 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 2: in Baltimore, where I trained at Hopkins and then the 123 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 2: State of Maryland Medical Examiner's office. These are two humongous cities. 124 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 2: I remember across from the community hospital in Philadelphia there 125 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: was a field full of like used needles, you know 126 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 2: where unfortunately drug users would leave them. I mean it 127 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: was like you couldn't walk your dog there, right. And 128 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: then those people like you know, people from the community, 129 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 2: people anywhere would become patients. But they don't come No 130 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: one comes labeled, do you know what I mean? They don't. 131 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 2: Often people may not know their medical history, they may 132 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 2: not be taking medicines, and you know, people fall on 133 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 2: hard times. I'm not trying to be like denigrating at all, 134 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 2: but you sometimes have to just think, oh my god, 135 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 2: like I don't know what they have. And that's not 136 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 2: just in the living, but also the dead. Right, I 137 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 2: don't even have the privilege of talking to someone. So 138 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 2: anytime you're doing an autopsy, there's always like blood borne pathogens, 139 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 2: you know, hepatitis, hepatitis, bp C, HIV. And I will 140 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 2: tell you, like needlesticks are real, we're drawing toxicology or 141 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 2: we're using scalpels every case. I mean, I teach residents, 142 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,719 Speaker 2: I teach young doctors how to be a forensic pathologist 143 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 2: and how to do autopsies. And if you learn from me, 144 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 2: the first thing I teach them is tool safety. Know 145 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: where your sharps are at every time. You know, don't 146 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 2: start whipping your hands around the field. It's not a 147 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 2: sterile field like surgery, but it's the same concept, right, 148 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 2: you have to know where the sharps are, you have 149 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 2: to know where your scalpel is, you have to know 150 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 2: where we're drawing toxicology from. And I mean the people 151 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 2: I worked with and my technician, now are amazing. We 152 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 2: have almost like a dance. I call it, like I 153 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 2: can do it without talking to them because I'm so predictable. Okay. 154 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 2: And what happens is when you do it methodically and 155 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 2: at a certain speed. Right, that's where safety is built in. 156 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: You do it carefully. We're always thinking about what's the 157 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 2: next step and how to do it safely. So you know, 158 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 2: I teach my residence. I have holes in the count 159 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 2: the countertops that we do the dissection on. I always say, 160 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 2: put your scalpel down through the whole. Carry your knife 161 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 2: this way, be careful of the sharp. Don't recap needles. 162 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 2: That's true, and you know autopsy as well as clinical settings. Right, 163 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 2: don't recap needles because you can stick yourself. These are 164 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 2: basic practices, but they're there to think. Oh they're so basic, 165 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 2: I don't need to worry about them. But this is 166 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: what keeps you safe. 167 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: Hey, doc, have you ever seen sitting at the table 168 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: how the Blue Angels practice with their eyes closed. It's 169 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: like you're talking about you can do it, you know, blindfolded. 170 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: But they sit at this table and just with their 171 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: hands they're grasping the instruments and moving them. 172 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 2: That's so cool. No, I'm gonna look that up. 173 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: It is unbelievable. Knocked you out. 174 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 2: It probably won't because the reef, I mean, there's this 175 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 2: a split second or a split move can cause you know, 176 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 2: cause them to die or cause someone else to crash, 177 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 2: you know. And then you take the basic practices and 178 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 2: COVID being the most recent right like really like the plague, 179 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 2: like it almost made me feel paranoid. I was doing 180 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 2: COVID autopsies. My colleagues and I went hospitals, wouldn't you know, 181 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 2: because they were so terrified of exposure. And then, you know, 182 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 2: two things happened during COVID. One was my professional practice 183 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: at work. You know, we were in basically plague suits. 184 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 2: You know, we had the Taiek suits. We had to 185 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 2: we had to go through protocols of how to take 186 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 2: put things on and off safely so we wouldn't cross contaminate. 187 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 2: We had to have those breathing they're called pappers, like 188 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 2: positive airway pressure devices that we often wore in TV cases, 189 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 2: but now we wore them every We sort of look 190 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 2: like astronauts, you know, But that's the severity. You know, 191 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 2: we didn't know how contagious it was. I would come 192 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 2: home and like basically take my scrubs and all my 193 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: protective you know, my work gear off and run to 194 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 2: the bathroom without touching anybody, not my pets, not my family, 195 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 2: because we just didn't know, you know. And so and 196 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 2: I'm sure the one people, even lay people who have 197 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 2: lived through it remember it, you know. But do you remember, 198 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 2: like when I was younger and in med school and 199 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 2: in DC, I grew up in the DC area anthrax. Oh, 200 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 2: sure you countered anthrax coming in the mail. You didn't 201 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 2: know if there was an unlabeled package and a white powder. 202 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 2: I mean, my clinical colleagues, a few, you know, years 203 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 2: older than me and residency saw anthrax. I think at 204 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: Howard University Hospital. 205 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: We had some scares in Atlanta at the courthouse, at 206 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: the marta station. 207 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 2: Exactly, you know, courthouse exactly, the judges would get boxes 208 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 2: or something like that. And then you know, you don't 209 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 2: know what to expect, right, And that's because anthrax was 210 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 2: ultimately discovered or we knew, you know, what was happening. 211 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 2: But you remember, there's always an index case, right, you 212 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 2: open something you don't know what it is, right, And 213 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 2: when sentinel came to the market. It was like you 214 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 2: could airsolize it or you know, touch like brush it 215 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 2: at the scene and then it might you might inhale 216 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 2: it or something, you know. So we're always thinking and 217 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 2: the biggest risk even at the scene or the auto 218 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 2: table is even undressing someone. You don't know what the 219 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 2: pockets told. You don't know what's hidden in people's bras 220 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 2: or underwear or anything. I mean, you know, you really 221 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 2: have to think outside the box that they could have 222 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 2: a needle, they could have drugs, they could have weapons, like. 223 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: Especially if they weren't counting on dyn correct. 224 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you know, the accidental overdoses are really like 225 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 2: the big thing, you know. 226 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: And I would think fittanyl would be a huge concern. 227 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:31,079 Speaker 2: Exactly, and and it is, you know, to this day, 228 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 2: we try to be as careful as we can with 229 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 2: syringes that are at the scene. So it's important to 230 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 2: collect those right because sometimes if it's a novel drug 231 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 2: or there's a low level, we might need to go 232 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 2: back to the evidence to id what drug was injected 233 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 2: or drugs or mixed in there. So the syringe, it's like, 234 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 2: you know, why would you touch that, Well, it could 235 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 2: be very important in the death. At the same time, 236 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 2: that is such a dangerous thing. We have special tubes 237 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 2: to put syringes in that have stirofulm at the bottom. 238 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: I'm sure you use the collection to We use the 239 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: same one, Jane. 240 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 2: For the safety. You know, the safety is built in, 241 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 2: but you know, you just don't know what's on the person. 242 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: If the person you know, we're homeless, you know, could 243 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: they have something on them that shouldn't be there that 244 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: could also harm you? 245 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 2: Correct, And that's really you have to think about it 246 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 2: anywhere and everywhere, right, And the other thing is like 247 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 2: you never know who's HIV positive HEPSI positive. So you know, 248 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 2: our needles shared, right, what if you get stuck with 249 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 2: a shared needle? I mean, these are just very basic 250 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 2: biohazards of the job. You know. Then you think about 251 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 2: infections like TV. There have been times when I mean 252 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: we all wear masks and and you know, eye protection 253 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 2: and gowns. But there have been times when I opened 254 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 2: a case like A did doing an autopsy and I 255 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 2: look the lungs and I go, oh my god, I 256 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 2: think this is active TB and we have to clear 257 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 2: the room. You know, there's no circulating help that we 258 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 2: have to isolate them in a different air exchange, you know, 259 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: that could be completely unknown going in. Oftentimes it is 260 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 2: you know, and then now I have uh, you know 261 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 2: what we call caseating this cheesy material and it could 262 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 2: be cancer, but it could be TB and so we 263 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 2: don't know just looking at it, and we have to 264 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 2: take the utmost precaution at autopsy. 265 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: Well, I want to go back to the homeless population 266 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: for a minute, because now that we do not have 267 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: mental institutions, it is not uncommon for somebody to go 268 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: from a homeless camp to a jail to a hospital 269 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: than to you correct. 270 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 2: I mean, unfortunately, people who have higher risk lifestyles and 271 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 2: higher risk factors, whether it be mental illness other disease, right, 272 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 2: they're going to be the ones that may need hospital 273 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: services or jail services more routine, you know, like they're 274 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 2: within the system, if you will. And unfortunately, sometimes they 275 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 2: die you know, wherever they are in that loop, and 276 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 2: I may or may not even know that they were 277 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 2: incarcerated to get medical records right, or that they were 278 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 2: in the hospital. And the thing is, when I'm doing 279 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 2: like someone passes away overnight, I do the autopsy the 280 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 2: next day. I can ask for medical records that takes 281 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 2: days to come in. 282 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: And that's if we know who they are. 283 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 2: That's right, But it's not like John Smith. I have 284 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 2: every piece of information before I do the autopsy. Do 285 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 2: you understand? So I may understand he was found in 286 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 2: a homeless encampment, but I don't know anything else. And 287 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 2: so even if he's even if that knowledge is out there, 288 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 2: it's not available to me until much later. It is 289 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 2: available to me, you know, more than likely if I 290 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 2: can get it at the end, like months later, when 291 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 2: I am synthesizing the case, right when I'm putting it 292 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 2: all together before I certify the death. But remember the 293 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 2: occupational exposure is right then and there, and then you 294 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 2: want to think about it. You think scabies, bed bugs, 295 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 2: spiders like you know, we have people in forested areas 296 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 2: ticks where we lived in New England, so there's a 297 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 2: lot of ticks. I mean, so I've seen not just 298 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 2: what you think as you know, infections, but just insects. 299 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 2: We also have a lot of water debts here, so 300 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 2: you know, you can have we have all sorts of 301 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 2: critters and fish and you know all that coming in, 302 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 2: So you don't know like what you're going to experience. 303 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: And I guess that's why, you know, the homeless population 304 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: pops into my head so much, because let's just say 305 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: they had a shared needle, but then they went to 306 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: jail and got bed bugs, and then went to the 307 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: hospital and picked up some other virus. I mean, all 308 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 1: three of those places could then transfer some harm to you. 309 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely. And the thing is you think about, we 310 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,959 Speaker 2: have a methicillin resistant back here, so MRSA, some people 311 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 2: hear MURSA. You know, there are certain infections. I mean, 312 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 2: think about the COVID transmission and any one of those 313 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 2: institutions right close encampments where people may not be vaccinated 314 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 2: or have the protection, you know, all of that respiratory, 315 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 2: the flu, anything seasonal like that TB. Right, all of 316 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 2: those are very contagious and easily you know, disseminated. And 317 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 2: then yes, and unfortunately they can come to me and 318 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 2: I don't know what's going on. Obviously they're not breathing 319 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 2: on me. But think about when I am doing the 320 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 2: procedure the autopsy, how I mean, I'm cutting into the organs, 321 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 2: I'm taking them out of the body, I'm cutting through 322 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 2: the airway. That's when the real risk is there. 323 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 1: There's one thing I want to ask you about, and 324 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to straight up and tell you I don't 325 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: understand it, and I don't know whether this would be 326 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: a risk to you, But it seems like here lately 327 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: there has been an increase a flesh eaten bacteria. Is 328 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: that something that you could be exposed to from a body? 329 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, you know, I don't know the answer. 330 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,719 Speaker 2: I mean exposed, yes. I think the biggest thing is 331 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,120 Speaker 2: we're always trying to use basic precautions, so gloved hands, 332 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 2: you know, we try not to touch any bare skin 333 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 2: or anything like that that we have, you know, on person, 334 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 2: whether it's my investigator or myself. But there are community infections, 335 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 2: do you know what I mean, like the staff or 336 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 2: strip like you can go. I remember I had a 337 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 2: patient many moons ago who went to like a casino 338 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 2: and picked it up like she was diabetic, So she's 339 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 2: at risk. So I don't think it's just like the 340 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 2: autopsy per se, but just the interaction going to scenes. 341 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:57,360 Speaker 2: I think going to scenes are the most unpredictable element, 342 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 2: right because that's someone's house or outside uncontrolled environment. In 343 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 2: that sense. Once I'm doing the autopsy. I'm in my 344 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 2: autopsy suite where things are metal and they're cleaned, and 345 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 2: you know, we're much more controlled if you will, right, 346 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 2: But I could flip and fall on a needle at 347 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 2: the scene. I could touch something, you know, decomp fluid. 348 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 2: I mean, I've had many, many instances like that. And 349 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 2: the other thing is like I remember going to a 350 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 2: trying to go to a fire scene and the fire 351 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,199 Speaker 2: marshal and my investigator said, you can't come in. The 352 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 2: building is actually too unstable for you to go up 353 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 2: the stairs. We're not going to let you risk your life. 354 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 2: And it was this very weird fire that started at 355 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 2: a bedroom and went through the stairwell, and I was like, well, 356 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 2: this is really important, but you know, just think about 357 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: the physical risk. 358 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:51,120 Speaker 1: Right. 359 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 2: There are times when I've had to take an ATV 360 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 2: or that was suggested to get to where the body 361 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 2: is in the woods. And let me tell you, I'm 362 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 2: not a roughing it kind of person. But if the 363 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 2: you know, job requires it, I'm going to do it. 364 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 2: You know. But that's all you know, when you think, Okay, 365 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 2: I have to take a plane, train, automobile to get there. 366 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 2: That's not normal terrain either, right, it could have snow, 367 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 2: it could have ice. You know, I live in New England, 368 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 2: so there's always winter, you know, winter and storms and 369 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 2: hail and all that. So I think the environmental risk 370 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 2: factors along with you know what you think as infections 371 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 2: or other transmissions, there are lots different exposures, you know, 372 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 2: or risks because it's not a hospital, you know, it's 373 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 2: not a regular doctor's office, so we're seeing such you know, 374 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 2: it's a different kind of medicine. And I'm sure you, 375 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 2: I mean, you know that more than I do, because 376 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 2: you're going to the scene and collecting evidence. It's never pristine, right, 377 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 2: it's always poor lighting, slippery contents, you know, it's Murphy's law. 378 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: One hunder. I tell people every single person has just 379 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:08,959 Speaker 1: been walking on a straight, flat floor and tripped for 380 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: some reason. So when you add tree roots and you know, 381 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: gates down and glass and different things, yeah, I mean 382 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: it's a hazard, there's no question about it. But let 383 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 1: me ask you one last thing, the rat droppings. Because 384 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: you know a lot of people talk about more grats. 385 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 2: I have been very fortunate where I worked not to 386 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 2: see any more grats or I mean maybe they're there, 387 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 2: but I have not seen them, but I'd be running 388 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 2: the other way. I'm not sure I can tolerate that risk. Yeah, 389 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 2: if you ask my husband David, when we were dating, 390 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 2: I made him come over at ten thirty at night 391 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 2: because a mouse had come into my house and he 392 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,479 Speaker 2: was like, is this an emergency and I said, yes, yes, 393 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 2: that's trapped out the mouse. Okay, so I'm not able 394 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 2: to function at work if that's hop If they're creepy 395 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 2: crawlers all over you know, well, luckily I haven't seen that, 396 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 2: but you know that's in the morgue. What people you know, 397 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 2: how people live or other environments, urban environments, come on, 398 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 2: they're rats and mice and god knows what else? Right, 399 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 2: And I mean even risk you want to talk. I mean, 400 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 2: I'm the biggest animal lover there is. But animals get 401 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 2: stressed when their owners pass away. So you can enter 402 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 2: a scene where a cat or a dog. The cat's 403 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 2: usually hide, but a dog we've often encounter protecting the 404 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 2: body and won't let police or myself or my staff 405 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 2: get close because they think we're harming their owner. 406 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: Well, doctor, I appreciate it, and from now own, anytime 407 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: I'm engaging with a medical examiner, I'm going to say, hey, be. 408 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 3: Careful, absolutely and likewise right because a lot of people, again, 409 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 3: they just don't realize it. They just think, oh, you're 410 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 3: a doctor, so everything is different for you. 411 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: And it's not different, no, And. 412 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 2: I mean I think especially this kind of medicine. It's 413 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 2: funny because as I do these podcasts with you, I 414 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 2: have a ton of doctor friends listening, which I always thought, 415 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 2: who wants to listen to me? But it's such a 416 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 2: different slice of medicine that people don't even regular doctors 417 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 2: don't know of it. 418 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: Of course, of course, you know, uh am back on duty, 419 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: you are back on But I'm telling you we got 420 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: we got to play in the next zoo because that 421 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: was such a nice life balance. I just can't even 422 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: tell you. 423 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 2: But you know, it was just as much learning as 424 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 2: it was animal you know, experiences. I was thinking about 425 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: Scott's interview techniques just you know, when I was interacting 426 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 2: with people and watching TV. I mean, there's so much 427 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 2: we took away from it. I can't wait to hear them. 428 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's gonna be great. But I appreciate you. I 429 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: had a spectacular. 430 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 2: Time me too, so as an honor as always, and 431 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 2: thank you to Jenna Tobias and the Tobias family because 432 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 2: they welcomed us like family, you know. So that was 433 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 2: open arms and that was the best thing ever agreed. 434 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: I mean, it was hard to leave, No, it was. 435 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 2: It was a little too short, if you ask me, it. 436 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: Was a little too short. But all right, we're gonna 437 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: play in the next when room. Maybe we do something 438 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: live from there, so yes, you gotta squeeze that in. Yes, 439 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: all right, all right, honey, thank you so much. 440 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 2: You're welcome until next time.