1 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: Heydrild. Listeners, this is Amy Westerwaltz. We're interrupting the flow 2 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,639 Speaker 1: of this season for a really good reason. I've found 3 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: some new documents and sources that are pretty relevant to 4 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: this season. Here's a little snippet from one person I 5 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: spoke with. 6 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 2: Just as we have found that there are deep linkages 7 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 2: between the oil companies and tobacco on the one hand, 8 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 2: and those linkages have given rise to vast troves of 9 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:48,639 Speaker 2: climate related documents, we're also finding that there are online 10 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 2: archives of documents around benzene litigation, vinyl chloride litigation, pesticides litigation, 11 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 2: and those same companies and those same strategies, and those 12 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 2: same people show up over and over and over again. 13 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 2: It is clear that it was the same handful of 14 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 2: company as the same handful often of people, playing out 15 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 2: in these spaces over and over and over again. You 16 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 2: start to really put the pieces together for how these 17 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: companies operated, how they coordinated together to shape the public discourse, 18 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 2: to shape the science, to shape our very understanding of 19 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 2: the world, and how we as people should be evaluating risk. 20 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: A few episodes into the season, I got some leads 21 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: on some information that I hadn't seen before, including some 22 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: new documents that include details about the fossil fuel industry's 23 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: propaganda strategies that are super super relevant to this season. 24 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: So of course I had to go and get them. 25 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: That's what I'm doing today. In fact, right after I 26 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: tape this intro, we'll bring you more Mad Men Tails 27 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: starting up again next week, including the story I mentioned 28 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: at the end of last episode about Mister and Missus 29 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: Climate Nile. In the meantime, I'm excited to bring you 30 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: this interview from our partner over at the Heated Newsletter, 31 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,519 Speaker 1: reporter Emily Atkin, who sat down with The Guardian's interim 32 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: CEO Anna Bates in to discuss the paper's decision to 33 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: stop taking fossil fuel ads. Enjoy and we'll see you 34 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: next week. 35 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 3: I think the first thing I would love to ask 36 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:38,679 Speaker 3: is what the process was like leading up to the decision, 37 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 3: Like when did the issue first cross your desk, and 38 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 3: then how long did it take from that moment until 39 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 3: yesterday happened. 40 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 4: So it's definitely a topic and a question that we 41 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 4: have debated at a senior level for quite a while. 42 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 4: I imagine it actually crossed desks a while ago, certainly 43 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 4: several months I think I should just say that we 44 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 4: have always had a process of review and reflection about 45 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 4: what advertising we take, and we we uh have have 46 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 4: for a very long time taken that very seriously. And 47 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 4: there are there have always been, or there have over 48 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 4: time become adverts and campaigns that we have turned down. 49 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 4: What has tended to be there is that we have 50 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 4: turned them down on a campaign by campaign basis rather 51 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 4: than on an advertiser specific basis. So in a way, 52 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 4: this discussion was not is the process that we have 53 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 4: been using to date the wrong process? But should we 54 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 4: take it up a level and have a category of 55 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 4: companies that we won't. 56 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 5: Take advertising from? 57 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 4: And there were in that debate there were people who 58 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 4: felt it was very clearly aligned with our values and 59 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 4: very clearly consistent with the increasingly strong and powerful editorial 60 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 4: line that we've been taking. But there was also concern 61 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,239 Speaker 4: about the commercial impact of it, and both the direct 62 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 4: commercial impact but also the message that it might or 63 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 4: might not send about how we felt about advertising. 64 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 5: So this debate has been ongoing really. 65 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 4: Commercially as you know, you know, I mean, it's generally 66 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 4: quite challenging for newspapers and news brands. 67 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 5: And while we did get to break even certainly. 68 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 4: From an advertising perspective, last year was tough, you know, 69 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 4: and there are all sorts of dynamics going on, so 70 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 4: that just gives an extra sort of sort of context, 71 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 4: I suppose to the conversation. 72 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 5: I think the things that. 73 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 4: Changed were that, one, we ran a big series last 74 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 4: year called The Polluters, which led to a lot of 75 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 4: readers and even I think advertisers or people that we 76 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 4: work with, increasing the level of questioning just about whether 77 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 4: or not that was consistent with UH taking taking ads 78 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 4: from extractive companies. Secondly, watching the extraordinary bushfires in Australia 79 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 4: and both seeing the engagement levels that's that's driven both 80 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 4: in Australia and around the world, but also the amount 81 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 4: of reader support in financial terms that it's that it's 82 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 4: inspired and and and sort of kind of led to. 83 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 5: And then I think. 84 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 4: Thirdly, our commercial teams are really beginning to think about 85 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 4: a new narrative for advertising, which they're calling modern advertising, 86 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 4: which is really as we look beyond, as of a 87 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 4: digital programmatic world that's underpinned by cookies and that's become 88 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 4: really about audience buying. How do we reclaim some of 89 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 4: the value that has always traditionally resided with publishers, which 90 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 4: are around quality, context and trust and values. And once 91 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 4: you begin to think of advertising in those terms of 92 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 4: good advertising that achieves good ends and in those terms 93 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 4: of sort of values and trust, it seemed to become 94 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 4: it seemed to basically align commercial interests and our values 95 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 4: interests that it sort of became almost unarguable that this 96 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 4: was sort of a commitment and a statement that we 97 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 4: should make. 98 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 3: So it sounds like what you're it sounds like what 99 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 3: you're saying, is you and correctly if I'm wrong, that 100 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 3: you figured out that it actually improved your commercial business 101 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 3: strategy to only do advertising that aligned with your values, 102 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 3: because it's probably strengthened trust in the brand from readers, 103 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 3: probably made them more willing to donate to you because 104 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 3: you don't do this anymore. That sort of what you're. 105 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 5: Saying, that's certainly true. 106 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 4: I think it goes beyond that, which is, I think 107 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 4: we actually think its strengthens our advertising proposition. If if 108 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 4: we if we say that there are certain companies that 109 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 4: we don't believe, you know, we want to take advertising from, 110 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 4: which means that there are other companies that might prefer 111 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 4: to advertise with us or commit to advertising with a 112 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 4: publisher where values align and that they can be confident 113 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 4: that there's a really trusted and real and engage relationship 114 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 4: with readers. 115 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 5: Right. 116 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 3: But that's sort of a complicated line to walk, isn't 117 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 3: it though, Because it's like, oh, some companies will be like, well, 118 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 3: if we advertise in the Guardian, that means that we'll 119 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 3: look even more morally responsible. But I mean even as 120 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 3: you guys know in the in the PC wrote you know, 121 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 3: you're still taking ads from car companies like other other 122 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 3: heavy users of fossil fuels. Right, how do you how 123 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 3: do you guys grapple with that? Because like, because I 124 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 3: guess that I guess the argument could be that car 125 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 3: companies could be like, see, we're really great because the 126 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 3: Guardian lets us advertise there. 127 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 4: Yes, that that is, you know, that is a sort 128 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 4: of a possibility. I think we believe that the extracted 129 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 4: fossil fuel companies are qualitatively different, both in the intent 130 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,839 Speaker 4: and extent of their advertising and marketing, and therefore, while 131 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 4: absolutely I think there are that we can be criticized 132 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 4: by some readers, but also accepting car ads and ads 133 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 4: for flights and airlines and holidays. 134 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 5: We believe that they. 135 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 4: Are in the end around consumer choice and on around 136 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,559 Speaker 4: sort of allowing the individual to make choices about their lives, 137 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 4: whereas actually the other advertising is really only there to 138 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 4: to sort of shape perceptions and reputations for companies, and 139 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,599 Speaker 4: that's not something that we want to accept anymore. 140 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 3: Right And I noticed so it also I want to 141 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 3: talk about in the piece the reasoning specifically for the 142 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 3: band on fossil fuel ads. I noticed that it really 143 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 3: surrounded the reasoning seem to really just surround the idea 144 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 3: that the paper itself wants to be wants to align 145 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 3: itself with, you know, solving climate change and being more 146 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 3: climate friendly. It didn't really address the arguments that I've 147 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 3: heard a lot of my peers make that ads from 148 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 3: the fossil fuel industry might influence coverage, or that they 149 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 3: might manipulate readers into thinking that the that the fossil 150 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 3: fuel industry is climate friendly when in fact it's not so. 151 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 3: I guess my question would be, were those reasons were 152 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 3: either of those reasons that ads might influence coverage or 153 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 3: that they might manipulate readers, were those part of the 154 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 3: rationale for the decision. 155 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 4: Certainly not influencing editorial, because I think there is a 156 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 4: very very clear separation between editorial and commercial and I 157 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 4: think we can feel very confident about that. I think 158 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 4: to your second point that really these are ads that 159 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 4: are intended to shape perceptions amongst readers about what sort 160 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 4: of companies these are and what their business is. Absolutely, 161 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 4: I think that I think that's what we were really 162 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,239 Speaker 4: trying to refer to with the intent of this advertising. 163 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 4: It's not about consumer choice, It's about them believing these 164 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 4: companies are investing in a greener future, which is just 165 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 4: not a fair reflection of the realities of their business. 166 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 3: Right So it's sort of like putting, h you know, 167 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 3: you have your journalism right there that is very journalistically 168 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 3: has a lot of journalistic integrity, next to something that 169 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,199 Speaker 3: you know might be manipulating readers and not having the 170 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 3: same kind of integrity. 171 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 4: I mean, these are these are these are I mean, 172 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 4: you know, there has always been a very very clear 173 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 4: separation between editorial and ads, and. 174 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 5: I think that that. 175 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 4: We've always been comfortable that these things sit next to 176 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 4: each other. However, I think when when adverts are about uh, 177 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 4: promoting particular products or messages to consumers with the intention 178 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 4: of kind of you know, enabling them to make choices. 179 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 4: That's qualitatively different from adverts, where their sole intention is 180 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 4: to change perceptions amongst opinion formers or readers about what 181 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 4: a company's doing and essentially promoting an agenda that is 182 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:02,959 Speaker 4: very uh that it's very different to what the message 183 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 4: of the ad is really about, and is also often 184 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 4: consistent with their lobbying you know agendas. 185 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 3: Right, it's it's that the ad sells an idea and 186 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 3: not a product. 187 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 5: Really, yes, exactly. 188 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 4: And actually Mark Mark Ritson has just written a very 189 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 4: interesting article in Marketing Week which I can forward to you, 190 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 4: which is on precisely this, which is he's really essentially 191 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 4: calling out the hypocrisy of of marketeers who very specifically 192 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 4: are using advertising and sponsorship, et cetera to really kind 193 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 4: of promote a pretty ugly agenda. 194 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is kind of weird when you think about it, 195 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 3: that we allow all these ads that don't actually sell 196 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,959 Speaker 3: anything to us. They're not actually trying to give us, 197 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 3: you know, a flight or a car, or a or 198 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 3: a candy bar. Right, it's just see, it's just an idea, 199 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 3: it's just a way of thinking. It's very weird. But 200 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 3: I want to move on to also something I noticed 201 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 3: was not in the piece, which is, and maybe I'm wrong, 202 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 3: maybe I missed it, but that it didn't you know, 203 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 3: it didn't call out other publications for doing it too, 204 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 3: And maybe I missed this, like it didn't say we 205 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 3: hope others do this same, and I was just wondering 206 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 3: if that was intentional or or if you guys do 207 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 3: think that other papers should follow suit. 208 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 5: I think. 209 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 4: We're trying to be I think, quite humble about this, 210 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 4: which is we've made a choice. It's very much about 211 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 4: our values. I think it's not really for us to 212 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 4: dictate to others. I think we did say in the 213 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 4: blog that we have that brands might want to work 214 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 4: with us because of an alignment of values. But everybody, 215 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 4: every publisher, is dealing with their own challenges and they 216 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 4: have their own brands and values and relationship with their readers, 217 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 4: and so I think that's for others to call for 218 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 4: rather than us. 219 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 3: That makes sense, And I know readers are particularly interested 220 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 3: in this question, which is how important was fossil fuel 221 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 3: advertising to your news operation? Because you know, I know 222 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 3: earlier you were talking about how that was one of 223 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 3: the biggest considerations that you were making in the in 224 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 3: the time frame from between it when it the issue 225 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 3: sort of first crossed your desk and when you made 226 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 3: the decision was like, how will this commercially affect us? 227 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 3: Like with fossil fuel advertising, like a large percentage and 228 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 3: do you have like a rough number. 229 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 5: We probably wouldn't kind of give the kind of number. 230 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 4: It's it's it's it's it's substantive without being. 231 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 5: I would say a large percentage. You know, it's it's 232 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 5: it's not money that. 233 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 4: It's probably around one percent of our advertising, and our 234 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 4: advertising is forty percent of our overall revenue, so it's material. 235 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 3: And the revenue itself. You know, it's important. I feel 236 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 3: like I have to make this point to people a 237 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 3: lot when they're like, oh, like, well they get so 238 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 3: much these newspapers get so much money from advertising. It's like, well, 239 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 3: nobody at the newspaper is is rich, like it goes 240 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 3: to salaries and correct me if I'm wrong, if everybody 241 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 3: in the. 242 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 4: Guardian is rich, you know, no, no, no, definitely not. 243 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 3: No. 244 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 5: I think the advertising is very important. It used to be. 245 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 5: It used to be a higher before the revenue. 246 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 4: And as circulation of the newspaper has fallen and we've 247 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 4: migrated digitally, et cetera. It's now it's now forty percent 248 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 4: of our revenue. But that's that's a very important fort 249 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 4: and so we are genuinely you know, all revenue matters 250 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 4: to us and it's precious and and so therefore giving 251 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 4: up any revenue is is is you know, it's a 252 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 4: significant decision that we have to take. 253 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 5: Uh So that's that's why it's it's material and it's it's. 254 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 4: A sort of you know, it's a it's a it's 255 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 4: a significant decision. 256 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 3: I want to also go back to wait, the part 257 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 3: of the article announcing the decision where you guys said 258 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 3: that you know, you're not going to extend the band 259 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 3: to other polluting industries because that would that would be 260 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 3: too much of a hit on the newspaper for now. 261 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 3: And does that concern does like, just even that fact 262 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 3: concern you for the future? I mean, as do you 263 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 3: think maybe this campaign will get the campaign to stop 264 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,719 Speaker 3: running ads at all, will get stronger? I just wonder, 265 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 3: I guess how how that might complicate things moving forward? 266 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 4: And if you thought about it, yeah, we we we 267 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 4: absolutely have thought about it. Again, I would say, I 268 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 4: do think this this this category of companies is qualitatively different, 269 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 4: and I do think the intent of their advertising is different. 270 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 5: We will. 271 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 4: We we are firmly committed to advertising, but we also 272 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 4: will continue to review the advertising that that that you know, 273 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 4: that that comes to us and make sure that you 274 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 4: know is consistent and it remains aligned with our values 275 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 4: and and that's and that's really important to us because 276 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 4: this this sense of being true to our values and 277 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 4: the and the covenant that we have with our readers. 278 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 5: I think, particularly as as. 279 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 4: A higher number of them support us financially, is very 280 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 4: is very precious to us. But I don't think at 281 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 4: the moment, I don't think at the moment we see 282 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 4: this extending into other categories, because we do feel that 283 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 4: there is a qualitative difference. 284 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 5: Of these particular companies. 285 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 3: If you guys could be a one reader funded model, 286 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 3: like in a perfect world, if there was enough money 287 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 3: to do that, would you would do you think you 288 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 3: guys would do it? Is that a goal of of 289 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 3: the Guardians. 290 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 5: I think diversity of revenue is a strength. 291 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 4: I think the direction of our business is to become 292 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 4: more reader funded. I think one of the joys about 293 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 4: the Leader funding model is that it allows readers all 294 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 4: over the world to support us financially in places where 295 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,479 Speaker 4: we didn't have advertising businesses. So so that's that's an 296 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 4: enormously exciting thing for us, that we have this incredible 297 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 4: global audience and actually realizing a return through that digitally 298 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 4: through advertising can be a challenge. And now through reader revenue, 299 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 4: that that that that becomes a reality. 300 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 5: But I don't think we see a future without advertising 301 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 5: at all. 302 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 4: I think, just to say again, diversity of revenue is 303 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 4: a strength. And actually we believe in advertising. So I 304 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 4: think good advertising done with good intent, you know, it is. 305 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 5: A joyful thing. So I would I would say, I 306 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 5: would I. 307 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 4: Think we are we are comfortable with having advertising in 308 00:19:58,440 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 4: our future. 309 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 3: One of the criticisms that there has historically been of 310 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 3: fossil fuel ads in general in newspapers and media organizations 311 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:14,719 Speaker 3: is that it might implicitly sort of direct journalists away 312 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 3: from actually covering fossil fuel advertising, because it's almost like 313 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 3: a weird juxtaposition of we're covering fossil fuel ads while 314 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 3: running fossil fuel ads. And so I'm wondering if since 315 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 3: yesterday you've seen a lot of coverage of your effort 316 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 3: from other news organizations that run fossil fuel ads, which 317 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 3: is to say most of them. 318 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 5: There has been a certain amount of coverage. 319 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 4: Yes, The New York Times wrote about it, What Eaton 320 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 4: Post wrote about it, A lot of the trade press 321 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 4: have written about it. 322 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 5: That's slight different. 323 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 4: But also Nieman Labb wrote about it precisely to call 324 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 4: out some of the challenges that news organizations have around 325 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 4: these issues. We'll see if others, you know, if others 326 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 4: either follow suit or choose to write about it. 327 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it'll be interesting to see who did 328 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 3: it cover it? 329 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, thanks again. 330 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 3: I really appreciate your guys journalism. 331 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 1: That's it for this time. I hope you enjoyed that interview. 332 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: If you have comments or questions about either the interview 333 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: itself or The Guardian's new ad policy, we'd love to 334 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: hear them. You can reach me at Amy at drillednews 335 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: dot com, by email, or tweet at me at Amy 336 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: Westervelt or at the show at We Are Drilled. You 337 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 1: can also get the transcript of this interview on our 338 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: website at Drilled News, and we encourage you to subscribe 339 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 1: to the Heated newsletter to get more more coverage like this. 340 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: We have a link for that in our show notes 341 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 1: and up on our website as well. Big thanks to 342 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: Emily for sharing that reporting. Based off of all the 343 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: new information we've received, we're going to be adding quite 344 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: a few more episodes to this season, so we'll be 345 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: with you for a while with many more stories. Thanks 346 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: for listening, and we'll see you next time.