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Speaker 1: Happy Monday. Welcome to another episode of the Chuck Podcast.

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Speaker 1: Got a pack show, including a fascinating interview about somebody

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Speaker 1: who thinks they're going to convince the Supreme Court not

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Speaker 1: necessarily to overturn Citizens United, but to make a Citizens

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Speaker 1: United essentially defunct. I'll let him explain. It's a fascinating

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Speaker 1: and it is not. It is the equivalent of Luke

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Speaker 1: Skywalker blowing up the Death Star. Okay, it is a

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Speaker 1: single shot in the smallest way, but it is not

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Speaker 1: the craziest constitutional idea or path. It involves essentially limiting

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Speaker 1: how much an individual can give to a super pac.

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Speaker 1: It is not touching the idea that in theory you

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Speaker 1: can spend unlimited amount of money, but a super pac

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Speaker 1: will still have limitations and how much money it can

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Speaker 1: raise from a single individuals. So I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: get any more into that. This is all being run

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Speaker 1: by a Harvard law professor named Larry Lessig, who had

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Speaker 1: helped successfully pass a balid initiative in the state of

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Speaker 1: Maine that is basically designed to get this issue back

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Speaker 1: in front of the Supreme Court. So it's a bit convoluted.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to get into redistricting later, because this is

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Speaker 1: the beginning of what I've been harping a lot about, right,

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Speaker 1: which is our problems in politics. Yes, the two parties suck,

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Speaker 1: we know that's, let's not news. But our bigger problems

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Speaker 1: are structural. Right. There are loopholes and exploitations that both

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Speaker 1: parties have taken advantage of. And you know, just like

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Speaker 1: you would be uncomfortable driving over a bridge that were

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Speaker 1: built one hundred years ago without any updating, we should

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Speaker 1: be uncomfortable in the democracy that we have today because

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Speaker 1: we really haven't updated in arguably two hundred and forty

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Speaker 1: nine years. Well that's not fully true. We've direct election

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Speaker 1: of centers. It's been a good one hundred years since

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Speaker 1: we've taken it seriously to update democracy, if you will,

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Speaker 1: some of the some of the rules and regular We

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Speaker 1: made a quick effort after Watergate that has since almost

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Speaker 1: completely been rolled back. Every Watergate reform maybe dead. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: that's the interview. I'm going to get to it in

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Speaker 1: a minute. I've got a lot to unpack though. We're

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Speaker 1: at six months of Donald Trump. We've got the Epstein

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Speaker 1: mess which he can't which Donald Trump is trying in

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Speaker 1: his attempts to distract from it. All he does is

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Speaker 1: seem to entice more interest in the story and stir

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Speaker 1: up more journalism involving the story and involving his relationship

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Speaker 1: with him. We've got some new poll data to go through,

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Speaker 1: and I have a little bit on my a little

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Speaker 1: bit of sports page rantery that I'll want to get

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Speaker 1: off my chest as well. Plus I'm going to take

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Speaker 1: some viewer questions on the other side of the interview.

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Speaker 1: So there's your quick rundown for this July, for this

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Speaker 1: July twenty first episode. But let me begin with the

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Speaker 1: big idea. We are six months the six month mark

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Speaker 1: of Donald Trump, or not yet at two hundred days.

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Speaker 1: But here's the paradox. Donald Trump has gotten everything he wanted,

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Speaker 1: and yet the country is not giving him any love

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Speaker 1: for it. If anything, the more he succeeds on his terms,

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Speaker 1: the less popular he's becoming. Let's walk through it. He

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Speaker 1: has steamrolled the courts, he has bent Congress to his will.

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Speaker 1: He's installed loyalists across the federal government, including in many

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Speaker 1: watchdog roles, manipulated intelligence already, I'll get to that. Telsea

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Speaker 1: Gabbard with the latest attempt to distract from Epstein. We'll

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Speaker 1: get to that in a minute. He's broken the Freedom Caucus.

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Speaker 1: There are no more deficit hawks in the Republican Party.

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Speaker 1: He's crushed all of them. I guess maybe we'll give

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Speaker 1: Rand Paul his due. He may be the last deficit

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Speaker 1: hawk that's actually willing to vote that way. He's redefined

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Speaker 1: what independent means of the Federal Reserve. No, he hasn't

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Speaker 1: fired j Powell yet, but he's made a crystal clear

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Speaker 1: He's called the shots at the FED. Come May of

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty six, the next FED chair is going to

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Speaker 1: do whatever Donald Trump says, or they're going to get fired.

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Speaker 1: So we are already getting rid of So he's done

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Speaker 1: all of these things and the public is like, ooh,

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Speaker 1: we don't like this. In fact, we don't like this

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Speaker 1: at all. Let's start with immigration. Trump promised to shut

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Speaker 1: down the border, and to a large extent, he successfully

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Speaker 1: did it. The irony is that the Biden administration did

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Speaker 1: a lot of the sort of the low hanging fruit work,

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Speaker 1: if you will. I've talked about this before. The Biden

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Speaker 1: administration for two years played politics and didn't touch the border,

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Speaker 1: didn't let DHS do anything. We had a change in

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Speaker 1: chief of staff, and suddenly somebody noticed, Hey, the border's

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Speaker 1: not secured, the chaos is unpopular, we need to do

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Speaker 1: something about it. And Jeff's sience sort of essentially let

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Speaker 1: Alan may Orcis, who was then the DHS secretary, actually

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Speaker 1: start doing the job that he wanted to do at

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Speaker 1: the very beginning, and in many cases following the same

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Speaker 1: protocols that he followed when he was the number two

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Speaker 1: at d HS to Jay Johnson back during the second

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Speaker 1: Obama administration. But look, Donald Trump took what was handed

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Speaker 1: to him and he quickly was That's why he was

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Speaker 1: so quickly able to shut down the border. But it's

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Speaker 1: also why they if they have desperately tried to opt

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Speaker 1: deportations against people that are not criminals. They've taken away

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Speaker 1: protected status in certain immigrant groups because he's kind of

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Speaker 1: embarrassed that Biden deported more folks than he has, and

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Speaker 1: he just wants the numbers. Well, guess what. All of

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Speaker 1: the ways that they have tried to crack down are unpopular,

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Speaker 1: and we're starting to see it in the numbers. The

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Speaker 1: idea of having I think the topper here is sort

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Speaker 1: of the Again, the goal is popular, but how he's

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Speaker 1: gone about it is extraordinarly unpopular. Mask federal agents refusing

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Speaker 1: to identify themselves at border facilities, that's not just dystopian,

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Speaker 1: it's an American. If you're a small government conservative and

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Speaker 1: you're not alarmed by anonymous law enforcement operating with no accountability,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not sure you get to call yourself a

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Speaker 1: conservative anymore, and you certainly don't get to call yourself

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Speaker 1: a small government conservative on that front. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: get to some polling numbers that indicate how bad things

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Speaker 1: are for him on immigration. But it's not just immigration.

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Speaker 1: There's been tariffs in trade that Trump's on again and

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Speaker 1: off again. Tariff policies essentially frozen the entire import export market.

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Speaker 1: What's bailing him out on the economy is the fact

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Speaker 1: that there's so much investment in AI infrastructure by big

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Speaker 1: tech that the essentially the negative impact that tariffs are

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Speaker 1: having are only really hitting consumers. I say, only, hello,

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Speaker 1: this is what consumers are n't happy about, But it's

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Speaker 1: not hitting the stock market that hard because there is

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Speaker 1: other things that the stock markets reacting, including investment into

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Speaker 1: extra AI and all this stuff. So unfortunately, I think

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump has convinced himself, Hey, my tariffs said, it

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Speaker 1: hasn't been as bad as everybody warned me it would be.

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Speaker 1: But he's been walking things back, trying to avoid harsh

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Speaker 1: blowback from the markets. But at some point, you know,

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Speaker 1: when people are going to get tired of paying for

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Speaker 1: his tariffs. We're already seeing it happen. Walmart prices have

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Speaker 1: been going up, and that's sort of the tip of

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Speaker 1: the spirit's the easiest way to but look, if you've

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Speaker 1: noticed Amazon prices have been going up. Consumers will pay

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Speaker 1: for these tariffs. We all know this. This has been

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Speaker 1: proven time and time again. The back and forth with

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Speaker 1: it is sort of limited and minimized, and there was

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Speaker 1: some you know, we're just now this was always the month.

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Speaker 1: By the way, if you remember listening to Mark Sandy

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Speaker 1: on this podcast a couple months ago, and I'm going

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Speaker 1: to have him back on at the start of the

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Speaker 1: third quarter of the economic excuse me if the economic

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Speaker 1: calendar here, he said it would be July that we'd

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Speaker 1: actually the consumers would start feeling this. Well, we're in

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Speaker 1: July and we're now just starting to see those prices

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Speaker 1: come up. And again I'm going to share some poll

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Speaker 1: numbers with you. That is going to be a reminder

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Speaker 1: that the public's already feeling this pain if for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: the Trump administration is ignoring this. And obviously he's been

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Speaker 1: governing on tariff and trade just literally just trying to

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Speaker 1: solve for a headline pull back, pull back, amp up, etc.

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Speaker 1: The issue with the FED chair. With what he's doing,

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Speaker 1: you'll see some pull numbers. The more he messes with

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Speaker 1: the Fed, the more the public is in favor of

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Speaker 1: total independence of the Federal Reserve. This is going to

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Speaker 1: be I think a harder and harder political fight for

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Speaker 1: him down the road come the spring of twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: six when he actually puts a nominee to offers up

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Speaker 1: a nominee for Senate confirmation. Because I think these numbers,

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Speaker 1: way do you hear him? And I'm going to have

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Speaker 1: him in a minute. They are they should be alarming

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Speaker 1: for this White House. So despite all of this dominance,

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Speaker 1: if you will, political dominance, narrative dominance, I mean, look

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Speaker 1: what he's done with media companies there on bended knee, left, right,

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Speaker 1: and center. He's got corporations on bended knee. He's got

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party comfortably turning into a kleptocracy. Pay to

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Speaker 1: play is now the standard in order to deal with

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump enriching him personally. All of these things have

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Speaker 1: been done and it is a disaster for him politically. Now,

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Speaker 1: the poll I'm going to be quoting for you is

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Speaker 1: the CBS you gov poll. You've heard me before. I'm

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Speaker 1: not a big fan of you gov. Their methodology, I

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Speaker 1: would say, is sort of you know, it's B minus

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Speaker 1: sampling work, it's panel samples. You know it is, there

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Speaker 1: are But why I'm trusting these numbers more so is

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Speaker 1: that I trust trend lines. And to me, the trend

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Speaker 1: lines tell the story in any poll really well, because

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Speaker 1: you assume every polster at least uses the same if

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Speaker 1: it's a flawed methodology, as long as they're using the

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Speaker 1: flawed methodology throughout the trend lines due to you something.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with a few questions that you get Panama,

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Speaker 1: is the Trump administration trying to deport more people than

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Speaker 1: you expected about what you'd expect it or fewer than

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Speaker 1: you would expect it? Fifty two percent said it was

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Speaker 1: more people than expected. That's not necessarily a negative, that

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Speaker 1: could end up being a positive number. Now, who is

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Speaker 1: the Trump administration prioritizing for deportation? Well, in June, when

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Speaker 1: you go asked this poll, a majority fifty three percent

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Speaker 1: said dangerous criminals. Forty seven percent said people who aren't

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Speaker 1: dangerous criminals. Now those numbers are more than a flipped

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Speaker 1: just forty four percent believe the administration's targeting dangerous criminals.

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Speaker 1: We're getting close. The Trump base is somewhere between thirty

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Speaker 1: five or forty percent, So anything in thirty five to

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Speaker 1: forty that's just magabase saluting the flag. So that means

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Speaker 1: he's got a few of these independents here at forty four.

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Speaker 2: But people aren't dangerous criminals.

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Speaker 1: A strong majority now, fifty six percent believe that the

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Speaker 1: Trump administration is now prioritized people who aren't dangerous criminals.

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Speaker 1: You know why they think that, because I've been tell

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Speaker 1: you they are. This is a fact. It's not. This

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Speaker 1: is not just perception, This is reality. And this is

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Speaker 1: the whole sort of conversation I think we're all having,

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Speaker 1: is that what matters more perception or reality? And I

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Speaker 1: think this is a case where reality is going to

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Speaker 1: start hitting the Trump administration in the face. Now, how

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Speaker 1: about the way the administration is using contention facilities, Alligator

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Speaker 1: Alcatraz and all this silliness. Forty two percent favorite, fifty

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Speaker 1: eight percent of pose. Again, you basically have the maga

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Speaker 1: basis okay with it. Everybody else is not, and everybody

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Speaker 1: else always means it's independence, it's Democrats, and it's what

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Speaker 1: I would call you know, And it's the twenty percent

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Speaker 1: of Republicans who essentially oppose Donald Trump on almost everything

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Speaker 1: due to character. Is the Trump administration using by the again,

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Speaker 1: if you look at it by the numbers, the independence

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Speaker 1: are the ones that are powering right, both partisans eighty

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Speaker 1: five to fifteen favor ninety three seven oppose on the

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Speaker 1: Democratic side, But it's six percent of Independence who oppose

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Speaker 1: how they're using detention facilities, only thirty four percent of independence.

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Speaker 1: How independents go are how elections go? Pure and simple?

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Speaker 1: How about the Trump administration's program to deport immigrants illegally

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Speaker 1: in the United States, Well, in February there was fifty

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Speaker 1: nine percent approval for that. In June there was fifty

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Speaker 1: four percent approval for that. Now he's now upside down

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Speaker 1: on deportation. This was this was his best issue because

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Speaker 1: way do you see this other stuff, it's all worse.

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Speaker 1: This was his best issue, so and this is also

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Speaker 1: not good. And this is why you're starting to see

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Speaker 1: more even Republicans, particularly what I would call sort of

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Speaker 1: your chamber of Commerce Republicans, very uncomfortable with some of

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Speaker 1: the things that Stephen Miller and Tom Holman are green lighting.

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Speaker 1: On the deportation front, deportation searches. Do you think Hispanic

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Speaker 1: people are subject to more searches than others? Sixty four

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Speaker 1: percent believe that, only thirty percent believe they're fewer than others. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: I have first I have firsthand family experience about this.

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Speaker 1: Anybody who's Hispanic, regardless of their citizenship status, is being questioned.

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Speaker 1: Now that's that's a problem right there. They are profiling.

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Speaker 1: How do we know this because now they're promising they're

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Speaker 1: going to profile less, but they've admitted that they've been profiled.

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Speaker 1: By the way. Seventy eight percent think it's unfair that

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Speaker 1: Hispanics are being subject more to searches than anybody else. Finally,

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Speaker 1: overall handling of immigration. Again, why am I comfortable using

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Speaker 1: this Yugov poll because it's trend line situation. So in March,

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Speaker 1: Trump's ailing a situation. What's right side up fifty four percent.

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Speaker 1: In June it was fifty to fifty and now forty

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Speaker 1: four fifty six. So he has taken what he believes

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Speaker 1: is a successful strategy. He has gotten everything he wants.

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Speaker 1: He just got this big beautiful bill, more funding, more money,

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Speaker 1: and essentially more control over the immigration process in this country.

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Speaker 1: And it looks like the more he executes what he

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Speaker 1: thinks his vision is, the more unpopular this is going

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Speaker 1: to be. And by the way, this is going to

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Speaker 1: have a huge impact on the economy. We already know this.

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Speaker 1: It's going to have a huge impact on the economy.

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Speaker 1: The price of meat, the price of home construction are

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Speaker 1: both going to go up. Both of those industries have

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Speaker 1: a lot of folks who live in mixed status households,

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Speaker 1: and there has been a culture of fear among those workers,

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Speaker 1: many of them choosing to be they're not working those

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Speaker 1: in those places, thinking there'll be a target, not showing

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Speaker 1: up to work, et cetera. Now here's the meat on

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Speaker 1: the bone for why Trump's politically in big trouble right

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Speaker 1: now this summer, all right, is the Trump administration focusing

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Speaker 1: enough on lowering prices, not enough seventy percent. Seventy percent

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Speaker 1: say he's not focusing enough on lowering prices. Just twenty

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Speaker 1: four percent say he's focusing on the right amount. These

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Speaker 1: new US tariffs on imported goods, sixty percent oppose them.

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Speaker 1: Trump's handling of inflation it's never been right side up

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Speaker 1: since you Guv's been testing. His approval on handling of

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Speaker 1: inflation was forty six percent in March. It went down

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Speaker 1: to thirty nine percent in June. It is now thirty

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Speaker 1: six percent today. That's his approval on this. That's a

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Speaker 1: disastrous number. That is a catastrophic number. That is you

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Speaker 1: lose the House and the Senate is in play type

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Speaker 1: of number. Sixty four percent oppose how he's handling disapprove

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Speaker 1: of how he's handling inflation because he's all of his

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Speaker 1: policies are going to contribute to inflation. He wants to

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Speaker 1: hurry up and mess with the Fed. That's going to

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Speaker 1: you know, if you're going to supercharge add more cheap

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Speaker 1: money into the economy while we haven't lowered inflation, we

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Speaker 1: know what's going to happen there. He's cutting back on workers. Well,

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Speaker 1: that is only going to raise the cost of build homes.

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Speaker 1: Raise the cost of meat around the country, raise the

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Speaker 1: cost of agricultural products that we sell in the United States. Again,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't help inflation. And then there are teriffs, so

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Speaker 1: all of these things. So right now we're only feeling

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Speaker 1: the first effects, and he's already had a sixty four

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Speaker 1: percent disapproval on this. This is likely to be you know,

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Speaker 1: it's funny. You know, a lot of people are wanting

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Speaker 1: to get it Epstein. That's going to get Trump? Is it?

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Speaker 1: Is it this it's going to you know, is it

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Speaker 1: Trump's mismanaged? Is this health going to get him? Is

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Speaker 1: it just sort of exhaustion going to get him? The

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Speaker 1: public just tired of him. It's look, it's always the economy.

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Speaker 1: The single reason why Kamala Harris lost, Right, everybody's going

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Speaker 1: to want to do this autopsy. You know why. You

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Speaker 1: know why Biden was unpopular because the cost of goods

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Speaker 1: was too much. You know why Harris couldn't win because

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Speaker 1: the cost of goods were too much. And you know

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Speaker 1: why Donald Trump is growing more unpopular because the cost

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Speaker 1: of good is too much. You want to understand the

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Speaker 1: power of inflation. It took down three presidents in the seventies.

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Speaker 1: It took down Nixon, took down four and took down Carter. Okay,

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Speaker 1: two Republicans in a Democrat. Inflation is bipartisan trust me

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Speaker 1: I hinted at some new numbers about independence of the

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Speaker 1: Federal Reserve. Federal Reserve and the economy is at best

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Speaker 1: if the FED makes decisions independently from Trump. Sixty eight

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Speaker 1: percent believe that, thirty two percent believe it should be

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Speaker 1: guided by what Trump wants. So if he gets again,

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Speaker 1: he is going to get the FED chair that he wants,

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Speaker 1: which means he is going to be guiding the Fed

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Speaker 1: by what he wants. This again is going to be

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Speaker 1: bad for the economy. Maybe markets have figured out how

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Speaker 1: to sort of play Trump, and there's no doubt in

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Speaker 1: my mind, But remember what the markets say isn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: the impact on the economy itself. And already we've seen

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Speaker 1: while the rich have gotten richer, those in the working

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Speaker 1: class are finding things are more expensive, not less expensive.

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Speaker 1: And if there was one the core promise to Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump's candidacy, it was that he was going to make

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Speaker 1: everything costs less. In essence, he's made just about everything

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Speaker 1: costs more. Yes, the price of eggs have gone down,

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Speaker 1: like other than that, almost everything else has gone up.

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Speaker 2: In fact, he.

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Speaker 1: Wants to raise the price of coca cola. If he

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Speaker 1: puts if he demands cane sugar, well then he better

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Speaker 1: drop all the artificial subsidies that the US sugar industry

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Speaker 1: gets in its favor because the cost of using US

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Speaker 1: sugar is through the roof. That's why all these companies

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Speaker 1: have to use corn corn syrup. So again, this is

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Speaker 1: you know, the sugar industry. Trust me as a Floridian,

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Speaker 1: we know this. The sugar industry is gets a lot

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Speaker 1: of profits thanks to government sort of rules and subsidies

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Speaker 1: and regulations. It is not subject to sort of the

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Speaker 1: pure free market, if you will. All right, a few

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Speaker 1: other poll questions that I want to share here in

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Speaker 1: his over approval rating, since it just forty two percent again,

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Speaker 1: they've they've pretty much pulled once a month. He started

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Speaker 1: at fifty three percent in February, he was at fifty

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Speaker 1: one percent in March. At the end of March, he

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Speaker 1: was right at fifty forty seven percent in April. In

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Speaker 1: June it was forty five percent, and now he's down

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Speaker 1: to forty two percent again gradually going down. What has

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Speaker 1: happened he has gotten everything that he's wanted, but the

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Speaker 1: impact of his policies are viewed negatively. And this gets

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Speaker 1: back to what was this election about. Was it a

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Speaker 1: referendum on Donald Trump and his policies at Project twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five or was it a referendum on Joe Biden

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Speaker 1: and his policies and that entire term? Well, guess what

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Speaker 1: for the third straight election. The electorate, the final swing

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Speaker 1: voters who decided this election weren't voting for Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: and his promises. They were voting against. They were voting

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Speaker 1: to fire the Democrats. They weren't voting for these policies

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Speaker 1: per se. They were simply hoping they would get something

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Speaker 1: akin to Trump one point zero. Well, obviously, Trump two

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Speaker 1: point zero and one point zero are as different as

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Speaker 1: the Carter presidency in the Reagan presidency. Okay, Trump one

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Speaker 1: point zero looks less and less like anything connected to

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Speaker 1: Trump Beyond Donald Trump the individual, right, there were guardrails

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Speaker 1: around Donald Trump. There were adults in the room. There

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Speaker 1: was a professionally run Pentagon, there was a professionally run

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Speaker 1: intelligence eight set of agencies. None of that is there there.

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Speaker 1: I would say, there's a professionally run State Department in

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Speaker 1: Marco Rubio professionally run Treasury Department of Scott Bessen, But

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure what else i'd say. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: give Doug Bergham, who I think is competent, the benefit

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Speaker 1: of the doubt that he's probably running a fairly professional

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Speaker 1: operation over there. But it's hard to find many of

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Speaker 1: these other cabinet agencies that are being run well compared

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Speaker 1: to the crop of people he had running his operation

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Speaker 1: back then, back in the first term. This is not

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Speaker 1: what these voters voted for, which is why they're so

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Speaker 1: easily turning on him. Right, I've made this. Anybody that

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Speaker 1: has heard me ran about this for years knows. I

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Speaker 1: believe we're in a series of one term presidents and

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Speaker 1: we're going to have more one term. I'll be shocked

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Speaker 1: if Republicans get re elected to the presidency in twenty

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Speaker 1: eight And I think we know what we don't want

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Speaker 1: as a country, and both parties sort of take the

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Speaker 1: wrong lessons from their victories. Right. The Democrats thought that

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Speaker 1: the firing of Trump meant that there was also know

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Speaker 1: that the country wanted much softer immigration policies. They didn't

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Speaker 1: want that in particular, but some of the things that

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Speaker 1: they thought the country wanted culturally, Mussila are not what

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Speaker 1: the country wanted. I mean, ultimately, to truly simplify this,

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Speaker 1: the country wants sort of a right leaning culture and

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Speaker 1: a left leaning set of economic policies. That's what the

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Speaker 1: country basically wants, and neither party has been able to

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Speaker 1: deliver anything resembling that. All right, now, let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the thing that's been hanging over his presidency for the

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Speaker 1: last couple of weeks. Jeffrey Epstein. Our friends at CBS

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Speaker 1: asked this question, should the DOJ release all of its

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Speaker 1: information regarding the Epstein case? Boy, you want to talk

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Speaker 1: about something that unites Americans? Eighty nine percent believe that

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Speaker 1: they should. Okay, eighty nine percent Trump administration's handling of

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Speaker 1: matters related to the Epstein case. Only eight percent of

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Speaker 1: Democrats are satisfied, only seventeen percent of independents are satisfied,

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Speaker 1: and only fifty percent of Republicans are satisfied. The dissatisfaction

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Speaker 1: numbers are ninety two percent among Democrats, eighty three percent

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Speaker 1: among independents, and forty nine percent among Republicans. So it

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Speaker 1: is it is. It is a This thing is hanging

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Speaker 1: over his head. The question is, you know, and we

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Speaker 1: see Donald Trump is trying anything he can to desperately

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Speaker 1: try to put this. You know, what I would say

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Speaker 1: is put it. He's tried really hard to try to

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Speaker 1: distract from it. Right, We've had what have we had here?

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Speaker 1: We've tried the Tulsa Gabbard business with the Russian with

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Speaker 1: putting out cherry picked Russian information. I mean, what is

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Speaker 1: Tulsea Gabert doing, By the way, on this whole Russian investigation.

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Speaker 1: Just keep this in mind. She's doing exactly what she's

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Speaker 1: accused the Obama administration of doing. She cherry picks information,

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Speaker 1: ignores the facts on the ground, and then says, oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, look at this. She created a denial. I

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Speaker 1: got to read this exact quote for you this morning.

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Speaker 1: On Sunday morning, she did an interview with Maria Bartiromo,

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Speaker 1: who who was a favorite of the MAGA world in

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Speaker 1: that because she accepts every conspiracy theory, rarely pushes back

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Speaker 1: in anything anymore. And she said this on this show,

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Speaker 1: which to me tells you that she is not intending

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Speaker 1: to get the facts out here. The intelligence show that

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Speaker 1: again Russia did not have either the intent nor the

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Speaker 1: capability to be able to impact the outcome of the

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Speaker 1: United States election. So what she's doing with that statement,

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Speaker 1: that statement's doing a lot of work there. What she's

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Speaker 1: saying is they did not have the ability, the capability,

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Speaker 1: or intent to change votes in the election system. Well,

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Speaker 1: that isn't what they were accused of doing, and that

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Speaker 1: isn't what they got what the Internet Research Agency got

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Speaker 1: indicted for. They were essentially falsely getting involved in our election,

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Speaker 1: buying these Facebook ads, false premises, using bots, using all

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Speaker 1: sorts of Now, there are plenty in magaworld who think, hey,

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Speaker 1: they just used political tools that happened in domestic campaigns,

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Speaker 1: but a foreign adversary used them. Take WikiLeaks. WikiLeaks is

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Speaker 1: clearly a Russian intelligence operation, right. They stole and took

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Speaker 1: John Podesta's emails and then they curated them along and

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Speaker 1: released them through WikiLeaks. I don't think it's been proven

429
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: or not whether WikiLeaks knew it was dealing with stolen

430
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: information from the Russian intelligence agencies or not, but it

431
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 1: was a Russian operation, pure and simple. Did Hillary Clinton

432
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: in her allies write those emails, Yes they did, doesn't

433
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: make them any less factually correct. But this was a

434
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: Russian operation. But again they want to cherry pick the information.

435
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 1: Let me read more of this one quote. There's no

436
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,439
Speaker 1: question in my mind that this intelligence community assessment that

437
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 1: President Obama ordered to be published, which contained a manufactured

438
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 1: intelligence document. Well, by definition, all intelligence documents are manufactured,

439
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 1: but the way she phrased it sounds nefarious. Right, it's

440
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 1: a manufactured intelligence document as opposed to what a non

441
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 1: manufactured intelligence document. Okay, it's worse than even politicalization of intelligence,

442
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 1: she says. And then she claims, and this is always

443
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 1: this is an old this is one of the older

444
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 1: tricks in the book when you're a conspiracy theorist. And

445
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,959
Speaker 1: next week we will be releasing more detailed information on

446
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: how exactly this took place. Folks, when somebody says they

447
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: have all this information but they are not ready to

448
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 1: release it yet, well we've got to wait next week.

449
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 1: Remember Donald Trump during Birtherism, you won't believe what my

450
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: investigators are finding. He is correct, We would not believe

451
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 1: what his investigators are finding because investigators, he didn't find

452
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: anything to be believed, or he didn't even have investigators

453
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 1: doing anything. He just said so. And here she is

454
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 1: taking up and remember, just six months ago there were

455
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: lots of questions from Republicans and Democrats on whether Tulsea

456
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: Gabbett herself could be trusted with intelligence information, and here

457
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: she is. Regardless of what you look. The Russia conversation

458
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 1: has been as follows. It's an uninvestigated. Part of this

459
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: is still uninvestigated, but the part was investigated. Collusion has

460
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: never been proven, but what has been proven was Russian

461
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: interference heartstop. That's never been in dispute. Marco Rubio helped

462
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: lead an intelligence committee inquiry in the Senate that did

463
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 1: not dispute Russia's intent. I'm old enough to remember when

464
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: Marco Rubio refused to talk about certain stolen pieces of

465
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 1: information because he said, hey, this was a foreign adversary

466
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: who leaked this information in order to weaponize it in

467
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: our politics. That's not today's Marcro Rubio. That was Marco

468
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: Rubio back when he thought Donald Trump was a problem

469
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 1: for the republic, the Republican Party, and conservatism as a whole.

470
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 1: So all the different ways that Donald Trump has tried

471
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: to disrupt they tried this. By the way, it hasn't

472
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,719
Speaker 1: taken hole. I've noticed a lot of people have noticed Oh,

473
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: they're playing the same game that they played with Epstein.

474
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: They're sort of teasing that there might be information when

475
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: they really don't have any smoking gun to deliver, and

476
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: then when they fail to deliver, there's going to be

477
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: a question, are you now part of the deep state? Right?

478
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: That's what's happened there. Well, what else is Donald Trump

479
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 1: tried the whole cane sugar thing, and with Coca Cola.

480
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: You know, it's gotten a little sidebar of attention this morning,

481
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: but it hasn't gotten much more than that. And again,

482
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: I am disappointed in the amount of reporting about this

483
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: idea of Coca Cola, whether they could change over from

484
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 1: corn corn syrup to pure cane sugar, and ignoring the

485
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: cost and how the sugar industry is regulated in this country.

486
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: All of it, by the way, has to do with

487
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 1: Cuba policy. But I'm not going to go down that.

488
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole. But essentially,

489
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 1: our sugar industry in this country gets special disposition and

490
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: special treatment because of making sure that Cuba's sugar industry

491
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: never gets traction anywhere. And then the latest is he's

492
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: trying to whip up interest in getting the Washington Commanders

493
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: and the Cleveland Guardians to change their names back to

494
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 1: names that many Native American tribes thought were racist ways

495
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: to do it. In the in the Cleveland baseball franchise,

496
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: it was the mascot himself, okay, with the with with

497
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: With the Washington football team, it was the name itself.

498
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: The logo was honorific, right, the red the Washington football

499
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: team's logo, okay, depicting a Native American warrior is very

500
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: similar to what's on the old Buffalo nickel. It's an

501
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: honorific and in fact, my friend Tony Kornheiser once wondered

502
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: had early on they kept the logo but changed their

503
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,239
Speaker 1: so the Washington Americans essentially the Washington Native Americans, but

504
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: she just dropped the words native the Washington Americans and

505
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: kept the logo. Whether that would have satisfied a lot

506
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: of people on that front. But why is Donald Trump

507
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: throwing this?

508
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 2: Right?

509
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: This is all about him? This is distraction spaghetti at

510
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: the wall. Maybe this will all he cares about is

511
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 1: distracting as Maga base about this, And the irony is

512
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: that the Magga base is all divided on this, in

513
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: part because there's all these bots that many of these

514
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: tech companies allow to have happen. Mago World has a

515
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: ton of bots, and the bots are confused. They're not

516
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: there's wait a minute, we're not supposed to talk about

517
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: Epstein or we are, and there's been lots of confusion,

518
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: which is only I think spun up mago World even

519
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: more so. He's still got a ways to go. But

520
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: do realize the fascinating slight of hand that he pulled

521
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: when he's when he told his Attorney General Pambondi to

522
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: release more of the grand jury information. Why should I

523
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: emphasize grand jury information? Well, here's why. Because he's not

524
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: a part of the grand jury investigation. Any of that

525
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: stuff's not going to include Trump at all. Trump's not

526
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: a part of it. That's one. Two, it's unlikely the

527
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: courts A're gonna let any of that out. That stuff,

528
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you've got to get victim permission. You've got

529
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: all sorts of things. That stuff will get redacted. That

530
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: stuff's not It sounded like he was calling for the

531
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: release of really sensitive information, but what he really was

532
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: doing was essentially buying time because he knows that information

533
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: isn't likely to be released at all. Anything I do want.

534
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: If you really want to get your fix of more Epstein,

535
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: I want you to go take a look at an

536
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: interview my old French Jonathan Alter. His substack is called

537
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: old Goats. It's very cute. I like it, as you know.

538
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: Charlotte Alter's daughter's reporter at the New York Times. Jonathan

539
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: Alter has been a longtime reporter now. Biogray most recently

540
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: wrote a book on Jimmy Carter. It's a terrific book

541
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: on Jimmy Carter. But he had this interesting interview with

542
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: Michael Wolfe. Michael wolf He's written a couple of books

543
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: about the Trump administration, and look, Michael wolf has a

544
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: lot of detractors left and right. More and sometimes how

545
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: he goes about sourcing, you know who's an anonymous source,

546
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: who isn't. So it's usually more in tactics, but his

547
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: information is usually much closer to the truth than a

548
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: lot of folks want to admit. In this Q and

549
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: A with him, I just want to pass on this

550
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: one part, so Jonathan Alter, because Michael Wolfe has hundreds

551
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: of hours of conversations with Jeffrey Epstein over the last

552
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: ten years. He was apparently doing a book in fact,

553
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: he's trying to do a book and he can't get

554
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: a publisher to bite, which is kind of surprising, but

555
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: then again he explains in this interview why it isn't.

556
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: I'll let you guys decide. Yes, I'm trying to interview him,

557
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: and if we can get him on the podcast, we will,

558
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,959
Speaker 1: But I want to I want to talk about this

559
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: one thing here because it's a fascinating plot twist if

560
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: this is true, and Michael Wolfe arguably has done as

561
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: much reporting on this front as anybody out there. So

562
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: Jonathan Alter asked him the following question, why did the

563
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: friendship between Trump and Epstein? And at one point they

564
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: were best friends, but this friendship ended in two thousand

565
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,959
Speaker 1: and four, before, for what it's worth, all of the

566
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: investigations into Epstein began. And here's Michael Wolf's answer. It

567
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: ended over real estate. Wolf says. In two thousand and four,

568
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: Epstein believed he was the high bidder on a Palm

569
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: Beach house at thirty six million dollars and took Trump

570
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: to see it in order to give him advice on

571
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: moving the swimming pool. Trump then promptly went around his

572
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: back and outbit him at forty million, though he likely

573
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: didn't have forty million. This is the same property that

574
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: he would then flip to a Russian oligarch for nearly

575
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: twice that. Four years later in two thousand and eight,

576
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: but I digress, Epstein believed Trump was fronting for someone

577
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: and threatened to sue him. Epstein believed Trump then informed

578
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: the police in Palm Beach that that he had had

579
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: a never ending stream of underage girls in and out

580
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: of his house there, and thus began his long years

581
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: of legal peril. That's right, Michael Wolfe believes, or Jeffrey

582
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: Epstein believes, because he's interviewed Jeffrey Epstein, He's hundreds of

583
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: hours of conversations with him on tape. Jeffrey Epstein believes

584
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 1: that Donald Trump is the one that turned him in

585
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: on the whole issue of underage girls. That it was

586
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: Donald Trump. How about that for a crazy plot twist

587
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: all right? Before we go into my interview with Larry Lessig,

588
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: I actually think an issue that plays right end into

589
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: that issue is this fight over redistricting and between Texas California,

590
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: and this whole larger idea that Democrats are going to

591
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: essentially in their minds fight fire with fire, but it

592
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: may be come a race to the look. For years,

593
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: we've known what Republicans are willing to do to maintain power.

594
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: They redraw maps in ways that make a mockery of democracy.

595
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: Here in the state of Florida is one of the

596
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: best examples of undemocratic map making. All right, Texas has

597
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,439
Speaker 1: also been a leader in this. They pass a bunch

598
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: of laws, they ignore court rulings, They've rigged the process

599
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 1: time and again in their favor on these election lines.

600
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 1: In Florida's case, I would argue they have built the

601
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: least democratic legislature in the country. The least it is

602
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: that jerrymandered the fact that you know, the Speaker of

603
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: the House is going to be two years in advance

604
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: only in order for lobbyists to beget negotiating contracts with

605
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: that person. Because it's a part time legislature, you can

606
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 1: work full time and there's really no limitations on what

607
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 1: kind of job you can have. So the idea of

608
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 1: paid I mean, it is just it is just such

609
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: a corruptible process in Florida. Texas meanwhile, keeps pioneering new

610
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: ways to turn redistricting into a weapon. They've called they've

611
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: done this going back. Calm delay started this in the

612
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: early eye. They bypassed all sorts of norms, daring anyone

613
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: to stop them, and nobody has. This has not been

614
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: small d democratic behavior. It has been nothing but a

615
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: power grab for power's sake. But here's the question. Are

616
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: the Democrats going to try to continue to take the

617
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: high ground or are they going to start to follow suit? Well,

618
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: guess what. Apparently the plans are to no longer take

619
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: the high ground and if you can't beat them, join them.

620
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: So already, Gavin Newsom has promised to try to essentially

621
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 1: overturn a ballot initiative that demands independent commissioners decide the

622
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 1: lines and map making. This is a reform that Arnold

623
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: Schwarzenegger got passed, but it's a reform that was passed

624
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: by the voters. Okay, so you've got to overturn a

625
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 1: decision by the voters in order to do this in California. Apparently,

626
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: our King Jeffreys is also spoken with leaders in New York,

627
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 1: New Jersey, Minnesota, and Washington State, all of them in

628
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: hopes of at least figuring out how to flip one

629
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: or two. Those are places where they have full control

630
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,320
Speaker 1: of the legislature, and they think they can say, actually,

631
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: jerrymander their way to an additional seat there. Maybe there's

632
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: one additional seat in Minnesota, Maybe there's one additional seat

633
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: in Washington. Maybe there's two additional seats, maybe three in

634
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: New York. Remember they were going to try a New

635
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: York plant and they ended up backing out of doing that.

636
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 1: But Jefferies and company have made the decision. If the

637
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: GOP is going to burn down the rules, then the

638
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: Democrats are going to bring their own matches. They're fighting

639
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 1: fire with fire, and you can make the case that

640
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: they have no choice. After all, the high road has

641
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: led to minority rule and a majority voting country. So

642
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 1: I understand the case. But this is a case of you,

643
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: do two wrongs make a right? Does the ends justify

644
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: the means? And the fact is, we teach our kids

645
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: that two rungs don't make them right, and we teach

646
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,720
Speaker 1: our kids that the ends do not justify the means.

647
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,919
Speaker 1: And then in politics, all we do is essentially fight

648
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: or wrong with another wrong, claiming it's a right and

649
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: calling it a precedent. And we sit here and we

650
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: also argue well as long as we get the result

651
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: we want, nobody's going to care how we got there.

652
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: But let me tell you, folks, here's the warning. Once

653
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: both parties stopped playing by the rules, I ask you

654
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: what rules are left. This is the scenario many of

655
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: us feared in a second Trump term, not that he

656
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: destroyed democracy on his own, but that he'd provoke everyone

657
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: else to give up on it too. The danger now

658
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,879
Speaker 1: isn't just Trump's anti democratic behavior, it's the normalization of it.

659
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 1: And it raise a real question for Democrats. If you

660
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: want to beat back the Texas Jerrymanry, why don't you

661
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 1: build a freaking state party in the state of Texas

662
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: and actually go win this in an election. Go have

663
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: a campaign, make the argument to the voters of Texas

664
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: that their leaders are creating a corrupt process. Make the

665
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:50,399
Speaker 1: freaking case. They never do. Oh it's too hard, it's

666
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: too expensive, it's to this, it's to that. Nobody campaigns again.

667
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: You know why these these guys keep doing these undemocratic

668
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: things in Texas and in Florida Because the Democratic parties

669
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: stop trying to push back on either one of them

670
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: in either state. They've like thrown up their hands and

671
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 1: now they're like, well, why don't we just rig democracy

672
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 1: in California New York in order to balance it out?

673
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 1: Jesus freaking crime. Any folks, this is bad.

674
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 2: This is bad.

675
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: Go run a campaign in Texas. I promise you. They're

676
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: going to overreach the irony as they look for five

677
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,839
Speaker 1: new Republican seats and they're going to make six Republicans

678
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: more vulnerable than they were before this. You know, make

679
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 1: a small, be democratic case and go win it on

680
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,280
Speaker 1: the merits. Don't go change the rules in another state

681
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 1: to sort of balance out Texas. That's how we end

682
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: up in a That's how we end up in something

683
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: a lot worse than where we are now. We're in

684
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 1: this sort of cold cultural civil war between red and Blue.

685
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: This takes us to another place that none of us

686
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: want to be. So when both parties are abanned persuasion

687
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: for manipulation, this is not a democracy anymore. It's simply

688
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: a cold war with ballants. And this is a perfect

689
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:03,720
Speaker 1: way for me to bring in Larry Lesson here, because

690
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: he again I brought him on for this specific issue

691
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 1: on how he thinks he can upend Citizens United. But

692
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: we spend more time talking about the merits of a

693
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: constitutional convention. It's something the left fears because they are

694
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,760
Speaker 1: afraid conservatives are going to be involved with the constitutional

695
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: Oh my god, guess what it's called democracy, folks. It's

696
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: called democracy. And we could use a good constitutional convention.

697
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 1: You can deal with jerry mandering there. You can deal

698
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,320
Speaker 1: with term limits there, we can deal with campaign finance

699
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: reform there. Because everything every time we've tried to deal

700
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 1: with any of these things, we've had a judiciary that

701
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: says it's on constitution. Well, guess what. If you have

702
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: a constitutional convention, you get a chance to make your

703
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: case for your ideas to become constitutional. So I hope

704
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: you listen to Larry Lesson with some optimism in your head,

705
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 1: because he's not making a conservative argument or a liberal argument.

706
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: He's making an American argument. So joining me now to

707
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: have a longer conversation about the issue of campaign of

708
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: campaign finance issues, campaign finance reform. And the fact of

709
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 1: the matter is that I, who was a cynic about

710
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: money in politics, there's a point where I think we

711
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 1: all get to this point for those of us that

712
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: cover politics are a part of the world where you realize,

713
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:35,760
Speaker 1: oh my god, this has gotten out of hand. And

714
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: Larry Lessig has been on this issue for decades, on

715
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: the issue of campaign money and the influence of money

716
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: and politics, but since Citizens United has tried a bunch

717
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,800
Speaker 1: of unique ways to drive more attention to this issue

718
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 1: that he sees as debilitating to the democracy. He's even

719
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 1: ran a k exotic campaign for president just simply on

720
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 1: a campaign finance, essentially a campaign finance platform, also with

721
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: voting rights and in what I would call the infrastructure

722
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,359
Speaker 1: of democracy, which you hear me talk about a lot here.

723
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,800
Speaker 1: But Larry Lesson joins me now because there's a specific issue.

724
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: He may have found a way to get the Supreme

725
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: Court to reconsider Citizens United. We're going to get to

726
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: that in a few minutes. But Larry Lesson of Harvard

727
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,280
Speaker 1: Law School, how are you good to see I'm great, great.

728
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: To see you again, Chuck. It's been a long time.

729
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the bigger picture here. It's you know,

730
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 1: I'll tell you sort of. There's always been you know,

731
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: I always say this about the Trump era. Everybody has

732
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: a line. It's just not in the same place, right,

733
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,839
Speaker 1: And eventually Trump crosses a line and that person can't

734
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: take it anymore. Right, Liz Cheney's line was closer than

735
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: Tom Tillis's line. Then so and so's line. I think

736
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 1: campaign finance reform. I find myself there. It's sort of like, hey,

737
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 1: there's I sort of am a I'm a I'm Jeff

738
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: Goldblum's character in the first Jurassic Park when when the

739
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: old man is saying, oh, we've made it. The dinosaurs

740
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: can't breed, and he says, life finds a way. That's

741
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 1: kind of my attitude about money and politics. No matter

742
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 1: what we do, money finds a way. No matter what

743
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: law gets written up, a reform gets turned into that.

744
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: And yet it was the Wolves of k Street. This

745
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 1: is a book written by the Mullins brothers. We're lobbying

746
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: has now gotten to the point where it's no longer

747
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: the citizens versus corporations. It's corporations versus corporations. They've cut

748
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 1: out the citizens altogether. And now we have big money

749
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: being spent just to manipulate corporate regulations that actually have

750
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: nothing to do with the people themselves. So to say

751
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 1: that money and politics have gotten out of hand as

752
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: an understatement, and yet traction for this issue is so difficult.

753
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: You ran for president trying to see if you could

754
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 1: get some more people interested in this issue. How much

755
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: do you think about that aspect of this of this

756
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: because to me, without political will, we can't solve this problem.

757
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think the biggest challenge is that people

758
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 2: don't think there's anything that can be done. And so,

759
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 2: you know, we always I always all admit that, yeah, yeah,

760
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 2: we wish we could fly like Superman, but we don't

761
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 2: jump off of tall buildings. We did a poll we

762
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 2: found a long time ago when I started this work,

763
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 2: which is not decades ago, it's only eighteen years ago, chuck.

764
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 2: So it don't like make me seen that old.

765
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: Every week is a day every day week, you know.

766
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: But we did a poll.

767
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,240
Speaker 2: We found ninety six percent of Americans thought it important

768
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: to eliminate, you know, to reduce the impact of money

769
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 2: in politics, but ninety one percent didn't think it was possible. So,

770
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 2: you know, the five percent who think that it's important

771
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,760
Speaker 2: and possible, you know, we've been talking to that five percent,

772
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 2: but the rest of the people are like, there's nothing

773
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 2: to do, So like, let's move on to the sort

774
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 2: of problem we can solve. And I get that, But

775
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 2: the point is there is something to be done. And

776
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 2: I think that in fact, we've got a path to

777
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 2: get something done about this, like take care of at

778
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 2: least the most important problem, which is super PACs. And

779
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 2: once you deal with the super pac problem, I think

780
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 2: that the way people look at this issue right now

781
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 2: will lead us to a whole bunch of other reform

782
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 2: as well, because you know, eighteen years ago this was

783
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 2: an important problem, and I wrote a book, Republic Lost,

784
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,800
Speaker 2: where I spent a long time trying to get people

785
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,399
Speaker 2: to see the problem because at that stage many people

786
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 2: are like, I don't really get the problem. I'm going

787
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 2: to work on climate change. And I was like, look,

788
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 2: you're not going to deal with climate change until you

789
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: deal with the money and problem politics problem. You're not

790
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 2: going to deal with health care, so you deal with

791
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 2: the money and politics problem. And back then people like

792
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 2: I don't quite get it. But now everybody gets it.

793
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 2: There's nobody who's missing this point right now, and Pew

794
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,240
Speaker 2: reports for the first time after the twenty twenty four election,

795
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,240
Speaker 2: money in politics is the number one issue people talk about,

796
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 2: number one issue that's got to be solved. I think

797
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 2: we're at this moment where finally people have come around

798
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 2: to recognizing why this is the critical thing to solve,

799
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:07,760
Speaker 2: whether you're on the right or on the left.

800
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 1: Look, you brought up healthcare and climate. I would throw

801
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 1: in the national debt. And I I made this argument

802
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: on my subspect a couple weeks ago that I call

803
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 1: them dead rail issues. Right, you have third rail issues.

804
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 1: You don't touch the dead rail issues where voters where

805
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: there's an agreement, there's a problem, but voters just don't

806
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 1: react to it. You gave. I think the debt is

807
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: another one of those, like campaign finance issues. Yeah, we

808
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 1: know it's a problem. They're never going to do anything

809
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: about it. So let me get my benefits first and

810
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 1: then we'll worry about the debt later. I guess the

811
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: question I have to sort of reacting to that is

812
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: whether whether it is is it possible that this renewed

813
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 1: interest is because Donald Trump is so upfront about pay

814
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 1: to play. I mean, he doesn't hide it, right, and

815
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 1: this has always been what it is. We are a

816
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,800
Speaker 1: full on pay to play democracy right now, right Elon

817
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 1: Muskall but says it. In fact, he's like wondering, like,

818
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: what do you mean I don't get my NASA guy, right,

819
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: I spent all this money, Like I thought that meant

820
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: I got my NASA guy, Well I did get this contract,

821
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 1: and I get that contract, and all of Washington is

822
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 1: operating like, well, we don't want it to be paid

823
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: to play, but this is the rules of the game.

824
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 1: Ask Paramountain sky Dance, right, ask Disney in a weird way,

825
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: is that helpful to your costs?

826
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 2: You think absolutely? I mean, you know. Mike Johnson was

827
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:35,760
Speaker 2: interviewed about his obsession with Biden and the corruption of Biden.

828
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: I know where you go. I love this. Go tell

829
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:39,280
Speaker 1: your version of it. I find it serious.

830
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,720
Speaker 2: It's like, why was he so obsessed with Biden's corruption,

831
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 2: which is tiny compared to the what's going on with

832
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 2: the Trump administration. And his response was Joe Biden hid

833
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 2: it and Donald Trump is out in the open. As

834
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 2: if that makes it better, That makes it? What works?

835
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: That Larry, when you shoplift, if you wave to the

836
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: camera when you walk out of the store, right like, hey, Hi,

837
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: I'm shoplifting, I'm mister CBS. No, I'm doing insight.

838
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,879
Speaker 2: So the point is, like, we live in this world

839
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 2: where everybody kind of thinks that's the way the system

840
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 2: is working, which is exactly why I think it's the

841
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 2: moment when we can finally get the court to do

842
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 2: the right thing. Now, you said at the top that

843
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 2: what we're trying to get the court to do is

844
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 2: to reconsider a Citizens United. False. We're not challenging Citizens

845
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 2: United at all. What we're saying is, embrace the logic

846
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 2: of Citizens United, consider a question you've never considered, and

847
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 2: apply that logic to that question, and if you do,

848
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 2: you'll agree with us that super PACs are not actually constitutional.

849
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: So the question is what explain the question you want?

850
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 2: Right? So, in Citizens United, the question was whether you

851
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 2: could spend unlimited amounts of money independence of a campaign.

852
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 2: And the logic of the court was the only basis

853
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 2: for limiting political speech is if there's a risk of

854
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 2: quid pro quo corruption, this for that corruption. And the

855
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 2: logic according to Justice Kennedy in that opinion was if

856
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 2: the spending is independent by definition, quote unquote, that's what

857
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 2: he said, by definition, it's not quid pro quo. Or

858
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 2: another way to think about that is if there's a

859
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 2: quid pro quo, it's not independent. So that's why there

860
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 2: could be no limit on the amount of money you spend. Okay,

861
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 2: three months after Citizens United. The lower court, the DC Circuit,

862
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 2: in a case called Speech now address the question of

863
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 2: whether you could contribute unlimited amounts of money to a

864
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 2: committee that's then going to spend its money in the

865
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 2: political campaign independently. And the court said, if you can

866
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 2: spend unlimited amounts of money because the government has no

867
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 2: interest in limiting that, then the government wouldn't have any

868
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 2: interest in limiting the contribution either. So as a matter

869
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 2: of logic, it followed that you could contribute unlimited amount

870
00:48:59,960 --> 00:49:02,919
Speaker 2: of money if you could spend unlimited amounts of money,

871
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 2: And it has a kind of superficial logic to it.

872
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 2: But that's the decision that created the superpack.

873
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: Now if me pause right there. Let me pause right there,

874
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: because there's another piece of this logic that I've actually

875
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:21,919
Speaker 1: never understood. Why are there contribution limits up for political candidates? Then,

876
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 1: by that logic which you just explained to me, then,

877
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 1: because there's in theory an unlimited amount of money as

878
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 1: a candidate, you can spend. It all just depends on

879
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 1: how much you can raise.

880
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 2: Right, So a campaign can spend as much as they want.

881
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 2: The question is just whether they can receive contributions of

882
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,280
Speaker 2: unlimited size, and what the court has said is, look,

883
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,720
Speaker 2: you're giving money to a campaign, there's an obvious risk

884
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 2: of quit pro quote corruption. This is what the Supreme

885
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 2: Court held in Buckley versus Valo fifty years ago in January.

886
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 2: So because there's the risk of quit pro quote corruption,

887
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 2: you're dealing with a campaign. That's why you can limit

888
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 2: the size of the country with the campaign. But Citizens

889
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 2: United address the case where you're not having anything to

890
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 2: do with the campaign, like you're spending your money independently.

891
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 2: So if you're running a superpack, you tell your workers

892
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 2: in the superpack, don't coordinate with a campaign, don't talk

893
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 2: to the campaign, and if you do that, we can

894
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 2: spend whatever money we've had we have. They can't limit

895
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,720
Speaker 2: the amount we're going to spend because there's no risk

896
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:24,319
Speaker 2: of quid pro quode corruption there.

897
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 1: So that brings us to so what you're arguing. The

898
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: question you're arguing is that if campaigns can spend unlimited money,

899
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: but you can limit the amount of contribution, then in

900
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: theory you can limit a contribution to a super pack.

901
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 1: You're not infringing upon the Citizen United decision which says,

902
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 1: so these packs in Maine. So the law that was

903
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,399
Speaker 1: passed by referendum in Maine says there's a limit five

904
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: thousand dollars to a super pack. It does not say

905
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 1: the super pac is limited in how much it can spend.

906
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 2: Correct, exactly, exactly. The the the reason why this is

907
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 2: obvious is, you know what the court said in the

908
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 2: d C Circuit speech now was there is no risk

909
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 2: of quit pro quote corruption with a contribution to us

910
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 2: to what became a super pack. All right, Then five

911
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 2: years later, my favorite United States Senator Robert Menendez was

912
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 2: indicted in twenty fifteen, and the indictment was Robert Menendez

913
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:27,760
Speaker 2: engaged in a quid pro quo. The quick pro quote

914
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 2: was he was going to do favors for a Florida businessman,

915
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 2: and the Florida businessman was going to make a contribution

916
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 2: to Menendez's super pack. So there was a quit pro

917
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 2: quo involving a contribution to a superpack, and so that

918
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 2: was the indictment. Menendez's lawyers had the hood spot to

919
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 2: file a motion to dismiss, and their argument was, the

920
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 2: thing you've indicted us for, the d C Circuit said

921
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 2: cannot happen, so therefore we can't be guilty. Here, and

922
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 2: of course that was ridiculous, but it pointed out the

923
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 2: logic in the air and the logic of the DC circuit,

924
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 2: because yes, of course there could be a quit pro

925
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:09,280
Speaker 2: quote involved in the contribution, because there's nothing controlling the contribution.

926
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 2: Just think if you're running a super pack. You know

927
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 2: you can control your employees, you can tell them do

928
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 2: not talk to the campaign. But you get a check

929
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 2: in the mail for a million dollars. You don't know

930
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: where that check comes from, you don't know why that

931
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 2: check is there. So the point is there is obviously

932
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 2: the risk of quit pro quote corruption. And if there's

933
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 2: that risk, what the Supreme Court has said again and

934
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 2: again and again and in Citizens United and in McCutcheon

935
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 2: afterwards is that risk is the justification for the regulation

936
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 2: to limit contributions. And so that's why that question was

937
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 2: just wrongly decided, and for fifteen years we've now lived

938
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 2: with the consequence of that mistake.

939
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 1: So timing wise, when do you think you can get

940
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 1: this to the Supreme Court? You want this to the

941
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 1: Supreme Court?

942
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 2: Right?

943
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 1: The organizers of this battle initiative, everything that has happened

944
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: in past what seventy five percent are pretty close, right,

945
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: this is May. You know, they're pretty what i'd call

946
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: good government types, right, they sort of are usually pretty

947
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: They fall for those appeals. It immediately there was a

948
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 1: suit filed against it, right, claiming it was unconstitutional. So

949
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,799
Speaker 1: what give me your time? You know this world, Well,

950
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 1: when do you think this court will hear it?

951
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,839
Speaker 2: Well, so the d C. Circuit heard the case in May.

952
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 2: We actually expected the decision today because this is the

953
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 2: day that the main Attorney General said.

954
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 1: That today, we're taping on July fifteenth. This is kind

955
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 1: of drop in a couple of days, but I just

956
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 1: wanted we're taping Tuesday, July fifteenth. You'll be hearing this

957
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 1: later in the week.

958
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 2: Go ahead, Yeah, so we should know today by the

959
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:42,760
Speaker 2: end of the day. She was a great, great judge.

960
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 2: She spent three hours interrogating the lawyers, our lawyers, Neil Katial,

961
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:53,759
Speaker 2: who just did a fantastic job. And Neil's argument was

962
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 2: both the quick, pro core argument that I've just argued here,

963
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 2: but also an argument nobody's ever made in the context

964
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 2: of these cases, which is an argument grounded in originalism.

965
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 2: You know, he, I don't know if you knew this,

966
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 2: but Josh Holly a year ago introduced bill to overturn

967
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:13,399
Speaker 2: Citizens United And when he did that, he said, look,

968
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:17,320
Speaker 2: as every originalist knows, there's nothing in the original meaning

969
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 2: of the First Amendment that would restrict the ability of

970
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 2: Congress to control how corporations spend their money. And he

971
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 2: is right. The original meaning of the First Amendment would

972
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 2: have nothing to say about these questions of campaign finance.

973
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,319
Speaker 2: So what Neil argued was, both, this is a quid

974
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 2: pro quo standard the Chief Justice Roberts has set, and

975
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 2: under that standard we win. And oh, by the way,

976
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 2: for any originalist who wants to be consistent in their originalism,

977
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 2: and you might be skeptical about whether there are those people,

978
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 2: but I clerked for one early in his career, Justice

979
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 2: Scalia early on wanted to be consistent in his originalism.

980
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 2: For those originalists, if they want to be consistent in originalism,

981
00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:00,359
Speaker 2: they will also agree with this conclusion too. We made

982
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 2: both of those arguments. That judge held them for three

983
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 2: hours of oral argument.

984
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:05,439
Speaker 1: Who is your judge? I'm sorry I missed.

985
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 2: Her name is Wolf and she's actually a magistrate judge,

986
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 2: but she is, But she I think is the first

987
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:15,400
Speaker 2: federal judge to actually understand the issue. Her questions were brilliant.

988
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 2: Now we don't need to win in the DC. In

989
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 2: the District Court.

990
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 1: Doesn't matter when or lose. This is getting appealed right

991
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:23,239
Speaker 1: either side.

992
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 2: So it's going to the First Circuit. And the great

993
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:28,280
Speaker 2: thing about the First Circuit is it's never considered the question.

994
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 2: So we have an open field in the first Circuit.

995
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 2: And the First Circuit is a great circuit. They've got

996
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 2: super judges, so we think we have a clear shot

997
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 2: in the First Circuit. So that means if she decides

998
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 2: today in the fall, we will be in the First Circuit.

999
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 2: That means the First Circuit can decide by the spring

1000
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 2: of twenty six, which means we could be in the

1001
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 2: Supreme Court in the fall of twenty six, after the

1002
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:53,239
Speaker 2: election of twenty six, because you don't want to be

1003
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 2: in the middle of an election to decide this kind

1004
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:57,760
Speaker 2: of question, and so the Supreme Court could in twenty

1005
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 2: six or twenty seven decide this question. Now I wanted

1006
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 2: to be twenty six because that's the two hundred and

1007
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,839
Speaker 2: fiftieth anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, So we will

1008
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 2: declare ourselves independent of super PACs or have another reason

1009
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,720
Speaker 2: for our revolution. But either way it's a victory.

1010
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 1: Well, okay, so let's play this out. You get this

1011
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:18,800
Speaker 1: ruling that says you can't limit the contributions of super PACs.

1012
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 1: Doesn't that mean that Congress has to pass a law

1013
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:24,320
Speaker 1: limiting the contributions to super PACs.

1014
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:30,319
Speaker 2: No, because there's a law on the books that DC

1015
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,319
Speaker 2: Circuits struck down and it has not been removed from

1016
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 2: the book. So remember after Dobbs, there are all those

1017
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:40,880
Speaker 2: laws that are an abortion. They came back to life.

1018
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:42,720
Speaker 2: That's the same thing here.

1019
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 1: So there's a dormant law here, dormant law. What is

1020
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 1: the dormant law.

1021
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:49,239
Speaker 2: The dormant law, just like the main law, says that

1022
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 2: you are limited in the size of contributions you can

1023
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:55,280
Speaker 2: make to an independent political action committee to five thousand dollars.

1024
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 2: So these committees can raise five thousand dollars from anybody,

1025
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 2: and if they raised five thousand dollars from a million people,

1026
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 2: they can spend a lot of money in the campaign.

1027
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 2: But the point is they are limited in the size

1028
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 2: of their contribution and that would basically end the superpack.

1029
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 1: Wow, So that that is that is it feels like

1030
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 1: it feels like Luke Skywalker having to be able to

1031
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 1: get that that shot right in the right spot, you

1032
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 1: blow up the whole Death Star. I mean, it sounds

1033
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 1: it sounds so plausible. What's the uh, what's the what

1034
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 1: am I missing here? Where's the piano that's going to

1035
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: fall on your head?

1036
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 2: You know, Look, the Court doesn't have to decide cases

1037
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 2: in a principal way. I'm the last naive law professor

1038
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 2: who actually thinks they want to decide in a principal way.

1039
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 2: And in this case, there's no argument against deciding in

1040
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 2: a principal way. You know, money, this money doesn't benefit

1041
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 2: the Republicans anymore it used to ten years ago. Is

1042
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,520
Speaker 2: Aublicans who raised way more than the Democrats. Now the

1043
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 2: Democrats raise as much as the Republicans. Indeed, if you

1044
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 2: take Elon out, they raise more than the Republicans. So

1045
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 2: it's not like either side is winning. It's just an

1046
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 2: arms race. And from the Supreme Court's perspective, they would

1047
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,960
Speaker 2: love to be able to decide a case and say, look,

1048
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 2: we're just applying our principles to this question, and oh,

1049
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:25,920
Speaker 2: it turns out the answer is a answer all of

1050
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 2: us like like you like on the left, and we

1051
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 2: like on the right just because it applies our principles

1052
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 2: in a consistent way. So I don't see the reason

1053
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 2: why they would want to decide this in a way

1054
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 2: that continues the disgusting system that everybody now recognizes is

1055
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 2: destroying the integrity of our political process. So we just

1056
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 2: have to get to them, and we have to get

1057
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 2: to them by winning in the first circuit, because if

1058
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:50,439
Speaker 2: we win in the first circuit, they have to take

1059
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 2: the case up. If we don't win, they don't have

1060
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 2: to take the case up. Now, the reason why you

1061
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 2: know this seems like a Luke Skywalker move is that

1062
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 2: ninety nine percent of the people, especially lawyers, think that

1063
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 2: they know the answer to this question simply when you

1064
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 2: ask it, which is will the Supreme Court limit money

1065
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 2: in politics? Simple answer no, And that's because everybody's thinking

1066
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 2: about it at fifty thousand feet. Indeed, when I first reached.

1067
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 1: Out there, and then they already decide money a speech, Yeah, right,

1068
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 1: that's what I would have assumed here.

1069
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so when I first reached out to Neil,

1070
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 2: Neil was like, yeah, no, there's no way. And then

1071
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 2: I said, look, just have lunch with me. And then

1072
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 2: over the course of lunch. There's a certain moments like,

1073
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:32,920
Speaker 2: holy shit, I think you're right. I think there is

1074
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 2: an argument here that they, in a principled way, would follow.

1075
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:40,600
Speaker 2: And so this is not just I mean, it's clearly

1076
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 2: the best shot we've got to end these super packs.

1077
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, they're people trying to get an

1078
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 2: amendment to the Constitution to overturn citizens united and God

1079
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 2: bless them, but you know, you need at least sixteen

1080
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 2: Republicans in the United States Senate, and I don't know

1081
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 2: if they have one who's willing to do that. So

1082
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:00,680
Speaker 2: push for it all you want, but the point here

1083
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 2: is a way to get at least eighty percent of

1084
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 2: the problem solved if we can get them to apply

1085
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,480
Speaker 2: their principles in a consistent way and say that, yes,

1086
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 2: a state and Congress can regulate contributions even if they

1087
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 2: can't regulate spending.

1088
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:19,640
Speaker 1: Seems to me so your tart not to say you

1089
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:21,920
Speaker 1: target certain justices, but I guess I look at it,

1090
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, well, the justices that you might win

1091
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 1: over on that originalist argument, I guess are Barrett and Gorsuch.

1092
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, Now, the two Scalia wannabes, you know,

1093
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 2: I mean when I clerked for Scalia, it was early

1094
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 2: in his career, but there are any number of cases

1095
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:45,520
Speaker 2: where you know, Scalia was torn between the conservative thing

1096
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 2: to do and the originalist thing to do, and.

1097
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 1: Every one of those, seventy percent of the time he went,

1098
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 1: he went the predictable way. But there was always about

1099
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 1: right about one in three times he'd go yeah.

1100
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 2: But early in his career, early in his career, he

1101
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 2: always went to the originalist answer. Like later in his

1102
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 2: career he became a different kind of political Yeah, but

1103
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 2: early in his career was like, if you had the

1104
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 2: argument you could show in the originalist answer, He's like, Okay, fine,

1105
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 2: I don't like it, but I'll do it. That's the

1106
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 2: right answer.

1107
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 1: And I think you yeah, based on what you've seen

1108
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 1: of these justices, I.

1109
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 2: Think Barrett and Gore such both or you know, they

1110
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 2: believe they have a principle. They believe they're trying to

1111
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 2: apply their principle in a principled way. They want to

1112
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 2: demonstrate that. I mean, look at Gorsuch and the and

1113
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 2: the and the same sex title title seven action in

1114
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:38,640
Speaker 2: the boss Stock case, which you know that was an

1115
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 2: answer that followed from his principles about how you read

1116
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 2: a statute, even though you know it was completely inconsistent

1117
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 2: with the politics of the rights, it was the right

1118
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 2: answer from his perspective. And I think that's the same

1119
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 2: thing that we have to tee up here. And you

1120
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 2: know that's a hard lift because it is weird. But

1121
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 2: in the fifty years since Buckley versus Valleo, the case

1122
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 2: that's set up campaign finance law, literally there's never been

1123
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 2: a moment when the Court has considered the original meaning

1124
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 2: of the First Amendment as it applies to campaign finance.

1125
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:13,440
Speaker 2: And every time you get an originalist to look at that,

1126
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:16,480
Speaker 2: they're like, yeah, yeah, no, that's completely let's go back

1127
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:16,720
Speaker 2: to this.

1128
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 1: So basically, the argument is nobody was thinking about corporations

1129
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 1: when the First Amendment was written. Is that the argument.

1130
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 2: There are two versions of the argument. The most extreme

1131
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:31,960
Speaker 2: version is basically Justice Thomas. Justice Thomas in you know,

1132
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:34,840
Speaker 2: is trying to get New York Times versus Sullivan reversed,

1133
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:37,840
Speaker 2: and he says New York Times versus Sullivan is just

1134
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 2: policymaking dressed up as constitutional law. He said, what we

1135
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 2: should be doing is going back to the framing and

1136
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 2: ask what would the frame versus said about the First

1137
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:51,160
Speaker 2: Amendment and defamation questions, and the answer is they would

1138
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 2: have said defamation actions are not affected by the First Amendment,

1139
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 2: and so therefore there is no special privilege that the

1140
01:02:57,120 --> 01:03:00,919
Speaker 2: press gets under the New York Times versus elevant standard. Well,

1141
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 2: you know, I want to say to Justice Thomas, if

1142
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:06,280
Speaker 2: you think New York Times as a Sullivan is policy

1143
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 2: making dressed up as law. Have you ever read Buckley

1144
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 2: versus Falleo. It's the most complicated scheme of policy making,

1145
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:17,760
Speaker 2: constitutional policy making dressed up in this completely made up

1146
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 2: structure for adjudicating whether Congress can regulate in the context

1147
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 2: of campaigns. So, if you apply Thomas's standard and you ask,

1148
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 2: what would the framers have said, we have briefs by

1149
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 2: both Jack Raycoff and and uh, well, Jack Raycoff is

1150
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:38,600
Speaker 2: the one that's, uh, you know, historically been the most

1151
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 2: important in this context. I mean he's actually now twice

1152
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 2: weighed in on this question, and and his you know,

1153
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 2: basic argument that he's pushing is that in the framing context,

1154
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 2: there would have been no argument, uh that the First

1155
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 2: Amendment would be restricting uh this type of speech, and

1156
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 2: and so therefore from the original's perspective, we should win.

1157
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:03,360
Speaker 2: Now again, whether they'll take this up, whether they'll address it,

1158
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 2: or the simpler thing for them to do is to say,

1159
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 2: originalism gives me a reason why I should follow the

1160
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:14,040
Speaker 2: standard Chief Justice Roberts has and under Chief Justice Roberts standard,

1161
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:15,919
Speaker 2: the question is is there are a risk of quid

1162
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 2: pro quote corruption? And we've seen it, we can point

1163
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 2: to it, we can point to a particular examples. Menendez

1164
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,480
Speaker 2: is one, but you know we could also We're not

1165
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:27,640
Speaker 2: going to mention it, obviously, but you could also look

1166
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:31,800
Speaker 2: at just at the president, you know, I mean the

1167
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 2: President in April of twenty twenty four had that talk

1168
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:38,440
Speaker 2: to the oil executives where he said, raise a billion

1169
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:42,840
Speaker 2: dollars for me, and I'll relax oil regulations on day one. Well,

1170
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 2: you know, the only way you relax oil you weighs

1171
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:47,400
Speaker 2: a billion dollars is by giving to a superpack. So

1172
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:50,440
Speaker 2: there it is a quid pro quo involving a contribution

1173
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 2: to a superpack, which is exactly the sort of thing

1174
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 2: that entitles Congress to regular.

1175
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:10,600
Speaker 1: Obviously, let's say this happens, Let's say you win. My

1176
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:14,200
Speaker 1: expectation would be that they would be an immediate attempt

1177
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:20,520
Speaker 1: to then create a new set of of standards for

1178
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:23,520
Speaker 1: super PACs on the federal level. That would that be

1179
01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:26,720
Speaker 1: your expectation. And of course absolutely they can change, so

1180
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 1: they would probably you know, maybe they'd go to one

1181
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:31,360
Speaker 1: hundred thousand or a million or something like that. Is

1182
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:36,080
Speaker 1: that is that what you assume what happened.

1183
01:05:36,360 --> 01:05:38,400
Speaker 2: I assume that they will try to change the law.

1184
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:40,400
Speaker 2: And I would love to have that.

1185
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:42,000
Speaker 1: Fight right the public debate.

1186
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:44,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because right now the public would be kind

1187
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:47,480
Speaker 2: of outraged. I mean, you know, it's the same kind

1188
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 2: of This is why this is such an important issue

1189
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:53,280
Speaker 2: that people on both sides get this issue. Like when

1190
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:57,160
Speaker 2: I gathered signatures for this initiative in Maine on election

1191
01:05:57,240 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 2: Day twenty twenty three, I went to a place called Hollis, Maine,

1192
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:04,280
Speaker 2: which is a relatively conservative place, and I stood there

1193
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:07,360
Speaker 2: for thirteen hours gathering signatures. And in the first hour

1194
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:09,720
Speaker 2: a guy came up to me and he said, I'm

1195
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:12,720
Speaker 2: here gathering signatures to get Donald Trump on the ballot.

1196
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:14,680
Speaker 2: What are you here for? And I said, oh my gosh.

1197
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:16,320
Speaker 2: And so I handed him my initiative and he read

1198
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:18,439
Speaker 2: it and he said, hell yes, and he said, I'm

1199
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:20,200
Speaker 2: signing this, and I'm going to get every one of

1200
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:21,920
Speaker 2: my guys to come over and sign it. And that's

1201
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:23,439
Speaker 2: what he did. By the time he was there, every

1202
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:27,120
Speaker 2: Trump supporter came over and signed this. Because remember in

1203
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:31,200
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen when we spoke, Donald Trump was a big

1204
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:33,920
Speaker 2: anti superPAC guy. Super PACs were a corruption, that's what

1205
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:34,240
Speaker 2: he said.

1206
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 1: It was hurting him.

1207
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was hurting me.

1208
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:38,280
Speaker 1: I didn't like it. It was hurting Well, that's right.

1209
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 2: But you know, the point is nobody should be like

1210
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 2: demanding unilateral disarmament if that's the system. You live by

1211
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:47,080
Speaker 2: the system, you play by the system, you do what

1212
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:49,400
Speaker 2: the system allows you to do, but you should also

1213
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:52,080
Speaker 2: be arguing to change the system to make it into

1214
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:54,720
Speaker 2: a better system. So, like I think, you know, there's

1215
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 2: no inconsistency between saying we're going to run our campaign,

1216
01:06:57,760 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 2: we're going to get as many superpack dollars as we can,

1217
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:02,480
Speaker 2: thank you, Elon, but at the same time saying this

1218
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 2: is a corrupt system and we need to get back

1219
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 2: to a system which doesn't give like these tiny group

1220
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:11,040
Speaker 2: of billionaires the ability to basically decide what's possible in

1221
01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:12,080
Speaker 2: American politics.

1222
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:16,120
Speaker 1: No, I mean it's created an industry. What I've always

1223
01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:19,440
Speaker 1: said about about this these campaigns, I mean there's entire

1224
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:24,280
Speaker 1: I mean there's entire economies that have been created due

1225
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:27,760
Speaker 1: to this spending in the super pack. There's a lot

1226
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:30,680
Speaker 1: of wealthy political consultants now who couldn't have gotten nearly

1227
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 1: this wealthy without it, and those are in this case.

1228
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:36,120
Speaker 1: What I guess would be the special interest that would

1229
01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:41,959
Speaker 1: be that would be trying to change it. What if

1230
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:43,840
Speaker 1: this doesn't work, then what.

1231
01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:48,480
Speaker 2: No, Well, if this doesn't work, then it's you know,

1232
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:51,680
Speaker 2: the only thing is to amend the Constitution. And here

1233
01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:53,960
Speaker 2: there's another conversation to be had about, like what's the

1234
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:58,400
Speaker 2: way to amend the constitution. You know, liberals hate the

1235
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:02,000
Speaker 2: idea of using a convention to amend the Constitution. The

1236
01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 2: Constitution gives us two ways to amend when it's an

1237
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:08,360
Speaker 2: Article five convention. The other is Congress proposes. And they're

1238
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:11,760
Speaker 2: terrified about a convention because they believe a convention will

1239
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:15,960
Speaker 2: run away. That argument's never been good. But because of

1240
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:19,040
Speaker 2: a case I lost nine to zero in the Supreme Court,

1241
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:22,680
Speaker 2: that argument is no longer even plausible. So you know,

1242
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 2: I took the case to the Supreme Court asking the

1243
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:29,760
Speaker 2: question whether presidential electors were constitutionally free to vote their

1244
01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:33,519
Speaker 2: conscience regardless of being instructed by the state legislatures of

1245
01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:36,000
Speaker 2: how they have to vote. Nine to zero, the Supreme

1246
01:08:36,040 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 2: Court said, Nope, state legislatures can tell presidential electors how

1247
01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:41,120
Speaker 2: they must vote.

1248
01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:43,920
Speaker 1: Well, if you do not, how that I talk about

1249
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 1: like my understanding of I didn't go to law school,

1250
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:48,360
Speaker 1: but I've played a lawyer plenty of times now in

1251
01:08:48,400 --> 01:08:52,599
Speaker 1: television these days. I've never understood the logic of that.

1252
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:59,040
Speaker 1: The Constitution says what it says, and if you're an originalist,

1253
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:02,000
Speaker 1: you go by what constitution. Nowhere in there does it

1254
01:09:02,040 --> 01:09:08,200
Speaker 1: say the elector has to abide by what the state

1255
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 1: either vote tells them to do or the state legislature tells.

1256
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:15,280
Speaker 2: Them to don't get me sure. The logic of your loss, Well,

1257
01:09:15,360 --> 01:09:18,280
Speaker 2: the logic was, we were in the middle of the pandemic,

1258
01:09:18,360 --> 01:09:20,640
Speaker 2: this was a race with Donald Trump. They were not

1259
01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:24,360
Speaker 2: going to create this other layer of uncertainty. I mean,

1260
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:27,679
Speaker 2: most of the argument was focused on bribery, like whether

1261
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:31,160
Speaker 2: these electors would be bribed. Look, there's literally never been

1262
01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:34,599
Speaker 2: a single allegation of an elector bribe in the history

1263
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:36,920
Speaker 2: of the United States. But you know, still that was

1264
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:39,679
Speaker 2: their upset. So I understand why they did what they did,

1265
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:41,920
Speaker 2: and I kind of am happy right now. I mean,

1266
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:43,719
Speaker 2: we took the case just because we thought we needed

1267
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:47,960
Speaker 2: to resolve this before it created a constitutional crisis, because

1268
01:09:48,120 --> 01:09:50,519
Speaker 2: you know, we resolved it in a context where either

1269
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:52,400
Speaker 2: way they went, it wasn't going to pick the president.

1270
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:53,800
Speaker 2: But you know, if you were in the middle of

1271
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:57,439
Speaker 2: an actual contest and some electors vote one way and

1272
01:09:57,479 --> 01:10:00,160
Speaker 2: that's picking the president or not picking the president, that's

1273
01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:01,480
Speaker 2: creating a constitution.

1274
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:04,080
Speaker 1: My poor friend Jeff Greenfield wrote a whole novel about

1275
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 1: faithless electors and now the Supreme Court and this case

1276
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:10,679
Speaker 1: it probably made it where you can't even we can't

1277
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:11,800
Speaker 1: even fantasize about that.

1278
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:14,200
Speaker 2: But okay, but the point is, look, if you can

1279
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:19,120
Speaker 2: control presidential elector something that's in the constitution, you certainly

1280
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:23,120
Speaker 2: can control delegates to an Article five convention. So you

1281
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:25,400
Speaker 2: could tell delegates to the Article five Convention you can't

1282
01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:27,200
Speaker 2: run away. And if you do try to run away,

1283
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:30,599
Speaker 2: then the mechanism the Supreme Court approved for the electors

1284
01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:32,920
Speaker 2: is you can automatically kick them out and you could

1285
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:34,840
Speaker 2: replace them with somebody who's not going to run away,

1286
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:38,240
Speaker 2: so we could control a convention. And so I've been

1287
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 2: working with conservatives who are trying to get to a

1288
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:42,720
Speaker 2: convention to say we need a convention because there are

1289
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:44,439
Speaker 2: a bunch of things we should be able to agree on.

1290
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:47,679
Speaker 1: I was just going to say, in twenty sixteen, Greg Abbott,

1291
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:50,920
Speaker 1: as governor of Texas was a big advocate of this.

1292
01:10:51,080 --> 01:10:53,200
Speaker 1: He was he and he had a bunch of consultants.

1293
01:10:53,240 --> 01:10:55,880
Speaker 1: They were and essentially it was pretty clear to me

1294
01:10:55,920 --> 01:10:59,240
Speaker 1: they assumed Trump was going to lose, and all of

1295
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:01,960
Speaker 1: the it was clear what they were up to. They thought,

1296
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:05,679
Speaker 1: we will be the conservative energy point, you know, tip

1297
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:09,120
Speaker 1: of the spear by, you know, with Hillary Clinton in

1298
01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:12,200
Speaker 1: the White House, We're going to rewrite the constitution. Let's

1299
01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:15,639
Speaker 1: have a good old fashioned constitutional convention. And then Trump wins,

1300
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:18,920
Speaker 1: and all of those efforts, it like they all went

1301
01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:21,640
Speaker 1: on the back burner and they all got shelf. But

1302
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:25,439
Speaker 1: there has been a fairly consistent group of conservatives pining

1303
01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:26,799
Speaker 1: for this for some time, right.

1304
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:29,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's not all gone away. In fact,

1305
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 2: they think they now have enough resolutions and they've been teasing,

1306
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:38,759
Speaker 2: teeing up the idea of like trying to get litigation

1307
01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:41,240
Speaker 2: to force Congress to count it. Now, I don't think

1308
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:43,839
Speaker 2: that litigation goes anywhere because I think it's political.

1309
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:48,919
Speaker 1: Let's take a set back. How Let's assume this happens

1310
01:11:49,200 --> 01:11:51,360
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty nine, because I think that's when the

1311
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:53,439
Speaker 1: energy would be there, Right, it'd be after our next

1312
01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:57,680
Speaker 1: presidential election. If what would it take to start a

1313
01:11:57,760 --> 01:12:02,600
Speaker 1: constitute to I guess convene a constitutional convention? What is

1314
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:03,600
Speaker 1: it that's necessary?

1315
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:06,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean all it takes is for Congress

1316
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:09,559
Speaker 2: to recognize thirty four states have called for one. And

1317
01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:14,439
Speaker 2: if thirty four states have called for one, well, you know,

1318
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:17,280
Speaker 2: so with the balanced budget one, they think that they

1319
01:12:17,360 --> 01:12:20,200
Speaker 2: have thirty four, but it's probably closer to like thirty

1320
01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:22,479
Speaker 2: given the number who have like just.

1321
01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:25,800
Speaker 1: For the balance budget amendment, right, And then the.

1322
01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:29,040
Speaker 2: Question is like is it limited just to that? And

1323
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:32,880
Speaker 2: would other like resolutions come up? So I think that

1324
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:35,519
Speaker 2: you know, there's there's a big push in Maine, for example,

1325
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:39,760
Speaker 2: to tie term limits to campaign finance as a proposal,

1326
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:42,640
Speaker 2: and and I think you could see that happening in

1327
01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:44,519
Speaker 2: a bunch of places. And you know what about.

1328
01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:47,240
Speaker 1: Age limits because I think you cannot do age limits

1329
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:50,720
Speaker 1: outside the constitution because the Constitution says how old you

1330
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:53,320
Speaker 1: have to be to run the first time. That means

1331
01:12:53,360 --> 01:12:56,200
Speaker 1: you're going to need a constitutional amendment to then say,

1332
01:12:57,320 --> 01:12:59,160
Speaker 1: how you know, what is how old is too old?

1333
01:12:59,400 --> 01:13:01,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think there are a bunch that

1334
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:04,919
Speaker 2: would be popular age limit. I think ending immunity presidential

1335
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:08,080
Speaker 2: immunity is kind of outrageous idea that presidents are immune.

1336
01:13:08,120 --> 01:13:09,360
Speaker 2: I mean, there are a bunch of things where we

1337
01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:12,479
Speaker 2: should be able to get liberals and conservatives to agree

1338
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:15,720
Speaker 2: on principles that unite. And so you know, if you

1339
01:13:15,760 --> 01:13:20,000
Speaker 2: take fiscal integrity and representational integrity, that's what campaign finance

1340
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:22,639
Speaker 2: is about, that's what term limits is about, and maybe

1341
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:25,479
Speaker 2: integrity of the government process itself. Like, there's a lot

1342
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:28,439
Speaker 2: of reasons why people agree on the need for an amendment.

1343
01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:31,280
Speaker 2: And the thing to recognize about an amendment is it's

1344
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:34,160
Speaker 2: never a partisan You don't have except for the Civil

1345
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:37,240
Speaker 2: War amendments or basically the Republicans at the barrel of

1346
01:13:37,240 --> 01:13:39,160
Speaker 2: a gun told the states they had to adopt it

1347
01:13:39,240 --> 01:13:41,120
Speaker 2: or they weren't going to be part of the union anymore,

1348
01:13:41,479 --> 01:13:44,479
Speaker 2: We've never had amendments that were partisan. They were always

1349
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:47,439
Speaker 2: endorsed and supported by both sides, and so that's what

1350
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:50,000
Speaker 2: this process would have to be. Now, the thing about

1351
01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:53,880
Speaker 2: the money in politics amendment is that it increasingly is. Indeed,

1352
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:57,599
Speaker 2: there's a great group called American Promise who's been out

1353
01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:03,600
Speaker 2: there pushing the idea of getting an amendment to the Constitution.

1354
01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:06,080
Speaker 2: Their strategy has been to try to get Congress to

1355
01:14:06,080 --> 01:14:08,120
Speaker 2: propose an amendments. So what they've done is they've gone

1356
01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:11,240
Speaker 2: to all these states and they've gotten state legislatures to

1357
01:14:11,320 --> 01:14:15,240
Speaker 2: pass resolutions telling Congress that they ought to propose an amendment.

1358
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:17,880
Speaker 2: Now I want them to say, have resolutions that say

1359
01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:21,599
Speaker 2: Congress proposed and amendment and if you don't, then this

1360
01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 2: converts into a call for an Article five convention. But

1361
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:26,400
Speaker 2: they haven't done that yet. But what they've I was

1362
01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:29,160
Speaker 2: at an event where they were describing their progress and

1363
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:33,599
Speaker 2: the latest state to join is Utah, and Utah almost

1364
01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:37,519
Speaker 2: unanimously in the Utah legislature passed a call for Congress

1365
01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:41,160
Speaker 2: to pass an amendment to address to overturn citizens United

1366
01:14:41,479 --> 01:14:43,400
Speaker 2: And if you talk to the people in Utah, what

1367
01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:46,559
Speaker 2: the Utah legislators say is why do the blue states

1368
01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:51,040
Speaker 2: want this because obviously the runaway spending, the runaway campaign

1369
01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 2: finance is all benefiting the blue states, and if you

1370
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:55,320
Speaker 2: talk to the blue states people, they're like, why would

1371
01:14:55,360 --> 01:14:57,240
Speaker 2: the red states ever want this? But the point is

1372
01:14:57,479 --> 01:14:59,400
Speaker 2: red and blue never talked to each other, and if

1373
01:14:59,439 --> 01:15:01,320
Speaker 2: you get the to begin to talk to each other,

1374
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:04,320
Speaker 2: both sides would realize that we don't like this system

1375
01:15:04,360 --> 01:15:05,360
Speaker 2: where this money is in.

1376
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:09,800
Speaker 1: So one thing I just want to clarify, and what's

1377
01:15:09,840 --> 01:15:12,960
Speaker 1: not clear, and maybe this isn't clear if there are

1378
01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:16,519
Speaker 1: thirty four states for the balance budget amendment and says, okay,

1379
01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:19,280
Speaker 1: we've got to convene to talk about a balanced budget

1380
01:15:19,320 --> 01:15:24,120
Speaker 1: amendment a convention. What's not clear is whether other amendments

1381
01:15:24,160 --> 01:15:27,160
Speaker 1: can be considered at that same convention. Right, That's what

1382
01:15:27,240 --> 01:15:28,240
Speaker 1: I was just trying to clarify.

1383
01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so under the rules that have been drafted for

1384
01:15:32,120 --> 01:15:36,280
Speaker 2: this convention, the only issues that can be considered are

1385
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:40,000
Speaker 2: those that thirty four states have endorsed as an issue

1386
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:44,879
Speaker 2: to be considered at the convention. Now, constitutionalists will say, actually,

1387
01:15:44,960 --> 01:15:47,639
Speaker 2: there's no way to limit what a convention does. But again,

1388
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:52,080
Speaker 2: I think that legislators could. Legislatures could say to their delegates,

1389
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:56,040
Speaker 2: you can't vote to consider anything except the following three

1390
01:15:56,080 --> 01:16:00,800
Speaker 2: election issues, or you cannot vote or this issue, or

1391
01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:02,479
Speaker 2: you have to vote for that issue. So I think

1392
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:03,879
Speaker 2: that problem can be controlled.

1393
01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:06,639
Speaker 1: But hey, if pature, who would convene it? Let's say

1394
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:07,120
Speaker 1: we get.

1395
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:10,519
Speaker 2: There, so Congress. Congress is the one who convenes it,

1396
01:16:10,920 --> 01:16:13,479
Speaker 2: and then it's run by the states in the convention.

1397
01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:15,280
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, they convene it, and then they

1398
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:18,679
Speaker 2: meet and they and they start deliberating. There's an argument

1399
01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:21,479
Speaker 2: about whether the states ultimately control what happens or whether

1400
01:16:21,479 --> 01:16:24,800
Speaker 2: it's under the rules Congress sets. So there's a bunch

1401
01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:27,760
Speaker 2: of questions that have to be addressed or answered. But

1402
01:16:28,320 --> 01:16:32,240
Speaker 2: you know, I think one hopeful scenario is you see

1403
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:35,439
Speaker 2: one convention and it works, that doesn't run away. It

1404
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:38,120
Speaker 2: considers and it proposes an amendment. Whether it passes or

1405
01:16:38,160 --> 01:16:40,960
Speaker 2: not is not really the point. And then you say, well,

1406
01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:43,160
Speaker 2: what else should we be able to consider it? Because

1407
01:16:43,200 --> 01:16:46,799
Speaker 2: we know Congress is never going to propose a constitutional amendment.

1408
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:48,880
Speaker 2: It is never going to get two thirds of Congress

1409
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:51,639
Speaker 2: to agree on anything. So let's talk about the issues

1410
01:16:51,640 --> 01:16:54,479
Speaker 2: where we know Americans are united in the need for

1411
01:16:54,479 --> 01:16:56,960
Speaker 2: that reform. So money in politics would be the next one.

1412
01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:01,040
Speaker 2: Term limits probably are on that list. Maybe it's maybe,

1413
01:17:01,680 --> 01:17:04,639
Speaker 2: you know, ending immunity. But the point is there's a

1414
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:07,320
Speaker 2: long list of things we actually agree on, even if

1415
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:10,160
Speaker 2: it doesn't pay for the politicians to talk about those issues,

1416
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:12,639
Speaker 2: because division is what pays In Washington.

1417
01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:16,680
Speaker 1: I just wrapped up an interview with the historian that

1418
01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:20,160
Speaker 1: runs the George Washington Library at Mount Vernon, Lindsay Schervinsky,

1419
01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:22,880
Speaker 1: and one of my favorite questions that I've done this

1420
01:17:23,040 --> 01:17:25,640
Speaker 1: I've done interviews with her a few times, is what

1421
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:27,880
Speaker 1: would be the most surprising thing to Founders if they

1422
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:30,720
Speaker 1: came back today? And she said, the lack of amendments

1423
01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:35,840
Speaker 1: in the Constitution. That the Founders assumed that when they

1424
01:17:35,960 --> 01:17:39,639
Speaker 1: proposed that Bill of Rights, that you know there'd be

1425
01:17:39,720 --> 01:17:43,040
Speaker 1: In fact, she said, if you ask them, they assumed

1426
01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:46,320
Speaker 1: that constitution itself would have only lasted maybe twenty five

1427
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:50,000
Speaker 1: years until a new one was written. That there was

1428
01:17:50,120 --> 01:17:53,200
Speaker 1: that the fact that we've stuck with one and have

1429
01:17:53,320 --> 01:17:57,160
Speaker 1: only amended it arguably eighteen times since the Bill of

1430
01:17:57,200 --> 01:18:00,880
Speaker 1: Rights is would astonish the Founders the most. Do you

1431
01:18:00,920 --> 01:18:01,559
Speaker 1: concur with that?

1432
01:18:02,320 --> 01:18:05,400
Speaker 2: I do, and I think part of the reason we

1433
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:09,200
Speaker 2: haven't seen more amendments. Is the way that the convention

1434
01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:11,479
Speaker 2: movement has been stifled because if you think about some

1435
01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:14,719
Speaker 2: of the critical amendments. You know, the Bill of Rights

1436
01:18:15,320 --> 01:18:19,799
Speaker 2: is proposed by Congress only because the alternative was a convention.

1437
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:22,439
Speaker 2: They were talking about having another convention to propose amendments.

1438
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:25,120
Speaker 2: Madison's like, that's a disaster. No, We're going to propose

1439
01:18:25,160 --> 01:18:27,559
Speaker 2: these Bill of Rights. And then if you think about

1440
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:30,800
Speaker 2: the progressive amendments, you know, the Senate they're electing the

1441
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:36,160
Speaker 2: Senate amendment happened because they came within one vote of

1442
01:18:36,360 --> 01:18:39,120
Speaker 2: enough states calling for a convention, and Congress was terrified.

1443
01:18:39,120 --> 01:18:40,680
Speaker 2: They're like, oh my god, if there's a convention, who

1444
01:18:40,840 --> 01:18:42,400
Speaker 2: knows will propose So.

1445
01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:44,800
Speaker 1: You know, it's like that origin that we got direct

1446
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:48,479
Speaker 1: election as senators like, fine, we'll do it, please, we

1447
01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:49,280
Speaker 1: don't want to convention.

1448
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:51,680
Speaker 2: That's right, because they didn't know what would happened. And

1449
01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:53,760
Speaker 2: that's the same thing that you know happened almost with

1450
01:18:53,800 --> 01:18:56,840
Speaker 2: the balanced budget amendment in the eighties. They came very

1451
01:18:56,840 --> 01:18:59,160
Speaker 2: close and then they struck a deal. They said, well,

1452
01:18:59,160 --> 01:19:03,680
Speaker 2: pass the Graham, Rudman Hollings Framework to make sure that

1453
01:19:03,680 --> 01:19:05,679
Speaker 2: we take care of the deficit. Of course that didn't

1454
01:19:05,720 --> 01:19:08,880
Speaker 2: actually have the fact, but it pulled people back from

1455
01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:13,120
Speaker 2: a convention. But there's been this deep push, especially now

1456
01:19:13,160 --> 01:19:15,040
Speaker 2: on the left. Originally was on the right that John

1457
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:18,439
Speaker 2: Birchers were like deeply concerned about a convention, but now

1458
01:19:18,439 --> 01:19:20,320
Speaker 2: it's on the left that people are like, this would

1459
01:19:20,320 --> 01:19:22,400
Speaker 2: be the end of the constitution. I think we've got

1460
01:19:22,439 --> 01:19:25,320
Speaker 2: to get beyond that and recognize this is the only

1461
01:19:25,400 --> 01:19:29,800
Speaker 2: way to amend our constitution, and our constitution desperately needs

1462
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:32,639
Speaker 2: to be amended. And the one I care about is money.

1463
01:19:32,680 --> 01:19:34,920
Speaker 2: But I would would never say that's the only amount.

1464
01:19:34,960 --> 01:19:38,519
Speaker 1: And Larry, how about let's consider the fact if you're

1465
01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:42,320
Speaker 1: afraid of the people that maybe her democracy is already dead. Like,

1466
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:45,400
Speaker 1: trust them. I always say this, I trust the voters

1467
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:48,439
Speaker 1: to get it right eventually, Yes, you know, I mean

1468
01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:51,120
Speaker 1: voters don't always get it. You don't always do what

1469
01:19:51,160 --> 01:19:54,000
Speaker 1: I want them to do, but eventually they do. Yeah,

1470
01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:56,640
Speaker 1: because I'm a logic person and I always feel like

1471
01:19:56,720 --> 01:20:01,160
Speaker 1: eventually logic will win out. Sometimes it takes the second

1472
01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:05,639
Speaker 1: kick to the head by the mule, not one, maybe

1473
01:20:05,640 --> 01:20:08,320
Speaker 1: you need two kicks. One of my favorite men, this

1474
01:20:08,439 --> 01:20:09,000
Speaker 1: is the.

1475
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:11,840
Speaker 2: Part that depresses me the most about this argument. I was,

1476
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:14,600
Speaker 2: you know, trying. It was with chenk Hyugar, who's like

1477
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:16,880
Speaker 2: runs Young Turks, has been pushing for a convention for

1478
01:20:16,960 --> 01:20:19,800
Speaker 2: a long time. We were talking to a friend who's

1479
01:20:19,880 --> 01:20:23,679
Speaker 2: like a very prominent leader blocking the convention on the left,

1480
01:20:24,400 --> 01:20:27,960
Speaker 2: and this was before the Hillary Clinton election, and he

1481
01:20:28,120 --> 01:20:30,360
Speaker 2: at a certain at the end of our conversation said, Okay,

1482
01:20:30,479 --> 01:20:32,400
Speaker 2: I get it, and I see your points, but like,

1483
01:20:32,479 --> 01:20:35,879
Speaker 2: why risk it? Like Hillary will be elected, She'll appoint

1484
01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:39,559
Speaker 2: three Supreme Court justices and they will give us everything

1485
01:20:39,600 --> 01:20:42,080
Speaker 2: we want. And it was like, oh my god, if

1486
01:20:42,160 --> 01:20:45,439
Speaker 2: you can't trust the people at all, then why are

1487
01:20:45,479 --> 01:20:47,080
Speaker 2: we doing what we're doing here. I mean, if it's

1488
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:50,160
Speaker 2: if it's only lawyers who are allowed to touch the Constitution,

1489
01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:54,160
Speaker 2: then it's no longer a constitution of the people of

1490
01:20:54,280 --> 01:20:57,920
Speaker 2: the United States. And oh, by the way, Hillary didn't win,

1491
01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:00,479
Speaker 2: and we're not going to get justices are going to

1492
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:02,439
Speaker 2: give you what you want. So you're going to get

1493
01:21:02,439 --> 01:21:04,519
Speaker 2: to do it the old fashioned way, which is actually

1494
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:07,720
Speaker 2: to persuade people. This is what the Constitution Amendment needs.

1495
01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 1: My word, and we could imagine, look, I look at

1496
01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:14,479
Speaker 1: everything is an opportunity to teach civics when we have

1497
01:21:14,560 --> 01:21:18,320
Speaker 1: these sort of crises. I mean, we are in desperate

1498
01:21:18,439 --> 01:21:23,360
Speaker 1: need of revitalizing some of this. And you know, citizenship

1499
01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:26,880
Speaker 1: has duties to it, and I think sometimes we fail

1500
01:21:26,920 --> 01:21:30,160
Speaker 1: to ask the citizens to be citizens sometimes and a

1501
01:21:30,200 --> 01:21:33,519
Speaker 1: constitutional convention is one of those moments where no, this

1502
01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:35,439
Speaker 1: is one of those times you need to be a citizen.

1503
01:21:35,600 --> 01:21:36,600
Speaker 1: You get to get some work to do.

1504
01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:40,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. The idea I've been pushing for the convention is

1505
01:21:40,320 --> 01:21:43,320
Speaker 2: to imagine I don't know if you've talked about citizen assemblies,

1506
01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:45,920
Speaker 2: which are these things that are spreading out all across

1507
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:49,639
Speaker 2: the world, but is basically random representative group of people

1508
01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:52,800
Speaker 2: from the state or from the nation that are convened.

1509
01:21:53,120 --> 01:21:55,400
Speaker 2: They're given information about the issue, and then they sit

1510
01:21:55,439 --> 01:21:57,439
Speaker 2: down and they deliberate on it, and then they give

1511
01:21:57,479 --> 01:22:01,120
Speaker 2: their views both before they start deliberating in after and

1512
01:22:01,560 --> 01:22:06,080
Speaker 2: citizen assemblies, you know, is what Ireland used to propose

1513
01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:11,439
Speaker 2: ending regulation of abortion or blocking of abortion and supported

1514
01:22:11,479 --> 01:22:13,720
Speaker 2: same sex marriage to ideas that never would have come

1515
01:22:13,760 --> 01:22:16,880
Speaker 2: from the Irish legislature. But there's been happening all across

1516
01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:19,479
Speaker 2: the world, and it's slowly happening in the United States.

1517
01:22:19,479 --> 01:22:22,559
Speaker 2: But my idea is why do we have conventions in

1518
01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:25,920
Speaker 2: why do we have citizen assemblies in the states to

1519
01:22:26,080 --> 01:22:30,200
Speaker 2: review these proposed constitutional amendments, Like get a random selection

1520
01:22:30,280 --> 01:22:33,599
Speaker 2: of three hundred people from the state random representative, give

1521
01:22:33,640 --> 01:22:35,880
Speaker 2: them the information, let them hear both sides, and let

1522
01:22:35,880 --> 01:22:38,439
Speaker 2: them think about it. And after you do that for

1523
01:22:38,520 --> 01:22:41,240
Speaker 2: a while, people begin to see that these assemblies are

1524
01:22:41,240 --> 01:22:43,880
Speaker 2: actually very sensible. People don't think about that like that

1525
01:22:44,000 --> 01:22:46,200
Speaker 2: because right now when they think about the random person,

1526
01:22:46,240 --> 01:22:49,080
Speaker 2: they think about the random crazy person because that's all

1527
01:22:49,120 --> 01:22:52,680
Speaker 2: you see on social media, right But the random representative

1528
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:57,280
Speaker 2: American is like that population is actually pretty decent, Like

1529
01:22:57,320 --> 01:22:59,559
Speaker 2: there are craziest on the extremes, but most people are

1530
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:03,000
Speaker 2: not crazy. So if you see that these assemblies begin

1531
01:23:03,120 --> 01:23:07,040
Speaker 2: to do sensible things, then imagine a state saying, no

1532
01:23:07,240 --> 01:23:10,840
Speaker 2: delegate from the state of Massachusetts can vote for a

1533
01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:14,080
Speaker 2: proposed amendment at an Article five convention that's not supported

1534
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:17,960
Speaker 2: by sixty percent of the citizen Assembly of Massachusetts. So

1535
01:23:18,040 --> 01:23:20,000
Speaker 2: now you've constrained the amendment.

1536
01:23:20,040 --> 01:23:23,120
Speaker 1: Price is to your electoral the electoral college issue.

1537
01:23:23,240 --> 01:23:25,920
Speaker 2: Yes it's the same issues electoral college lodge, but now

1538
01:23:25,920 --> 01:23:28,639
Speaker 2: you tie it to a democratic process, which is better

1539
01:23:28,680 --> 01:23:32,240
Speaker 2: than any democratic process. We've got that a referenda, because

1540
01:23:32,439 --> 01:23:35,160
Speaker 2: you know, you're not spending money to get people to

1541
01:23:35,160 --> 01:23:37,000
Speaker 2: see one way or the other. And so now you

1542
01:23:37,000 --> 01:23:40,559
Speaker 2: could tie the amendment process to a democratic process that

1543
01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:43,559
Speaker 2: would actually make it better than anything we've ever had.

1544
01:23:44,160 --> 01:23:46,960
Speaker 2: So but you know, it takes what you're describing, that

1545
01:23:47,160 --> 01:23:49,920
Speaker 2: the recognition that we've got to get back to people

1546
01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:52,360
Speaker 2: believing they have a role, they have a duty, they

1547
01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:54,360
Speaker 2: have a they're part of the constitution.

1548
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:57,519
Speaker 1: It is. It is so clear when I when I

1549
01:23:57,640 --> 01:24:00,000
Speaker 1: sort of and obviously it's always easier to be clear

1550
01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:02,920
Speaker 1: when you've slipped away from something. But as I left NBC,

1551
01:24:03,040 --> 01:24:05,400
Speaker 1: when you look at the problem that the journalism has

1552
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:08,479
Speaker 1: and I look at the problem politics has, it's actually

1553
01:24:08,479 --> 01:24:11,920
Speaker 1: the same thing. We've we've lost touch on the ground.

1554
01:24:12,720 --> 01:24:16,519
Speaker 1: So in journalism it's local, right, local has gone away.

1555
01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:20,120
Speaker 1: In politics, I would argue, it's we feel so distant.

1556
01:24:20,240 --> 01:24:24,360
Speaker 1: You know, one of one of my pet agendas is

1557
01:24:24,439 --> 01:24:28,760
Speaker 1: to uncap the House, right, not something you don't need

1558
01:24:28,760 --> 01:24:30,880
Speaker 1: a constitution. You know, you don't like the electoral college,

1559
01:24:31,280 --> 01:24:32,800
Speaker 1: double the size of the House, and I promise you

1560
01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:35,840
Speaker 1: the electoral college and the popular vote, will you know,

1561
01:24:36,400 --> 01:24:39,120
Speaker 1: ninety nine point five percent of the time be aligned

1562
01:24:39,280 --> 01:24:44,080
Speaker 1: rather than the the shockingly often in case now that

1563
01:24:44,120 --> 01:24:49,120
Speaker 1: we're going to have in our current makeup, and it

1564
01:24:49,240 --> 01:24:53,240
Speaker 1: is what you're describing in a constitutional convention, or if

1565
01:24:53,240 --> 01:24:56,240
Speaker 1: we can uncap the House where there's yes, I've had

1566
01:24:56,240 --> 01:24:58,640
Speaker 1: people say, well, that's too many members of Congress. It

1567
01:24:58,680 --> 01:25:01,320
Speaker 1: will get unruly. What we're three hundred and fifty million

1568
01:25:01,400 --> 01:25:05,160
Speaker 1: people now, so we're pretty unruly as it is. It's

1569
01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:09,240
Speaker 1: supposed to be a representative democracy. One per eight hundred thousand,

1570
01:25:09,720 --> 01:25:14,439
Speaker 1: that doesn't That's how you get factionalism within each congressional district,

1571
01:25:14,439 --> 01:25:17,240
Speaker 1: because you don't need but one of every four hundred thousand.

1572
01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:21,000
Speaker 1: The likelihood that you're representing a community of interest has

1573
01:25:21,360 --> 01:25:22,240
Speaker 1: literally doubled.

1574
01:25:22,560 --> 01:25:25,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I mean I like that change, but it's

1575
01:25:25,760 --> 01:25:26,920
Speaker 2: not enough, right.

1576
01:25:26,840 --> 01:25:29,200
Speaker 1: No, I guess that I I was always thinking of

1577
01:25:29,280 --> 01:25:32,200
Speaker 1: changes that I could that you can do to avoid

1578
01:25:32,360 --> 01:25:36,080
Speaker 1: a constitutional amendment, right, avoid running into a constitutional question.

1579
01:25:36,400 --> 01:25:40,760
Speaker 2: Right, But imagine you said that in the states, the

1580
01:25:42,200 --> 01:25:48,160
Speaker 2: presidential electors have to divide their vote fractionally according to

1581
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:50,679
Speaker 2: the proportion of votes in the state because The single

1582
01:25:50,840 --> 01:25:53,240
Speaker 2: biggest problem with the electric college right now is not

1583
01:25:53,280 --> 01:25:55,880
Speaker 2: the one out of every nine elections where there's an

1584
01:25:55,880 --> 01:25:59,040
Speaker 2: inversion between the popular vote the electric college vote. It's

1585
01:25:59,080 --> 01:26:02,559
Speaker 2: the every election where the only votes that matter are

1586
01:26:02,560 --> 01:26:05,800
Speaker 2: the votes from seven states, so swing states, right, So

1587
01:26:06,040 --> 01:26:09,360
Speaker 2: presidential campaigns focus on just those states and the rest

1588
01:26:09,360 --> 01:26:11,920
Speaker 2: of the country is left out, and they bend their

1589
01:26:11,960 --> 01:26:15,240
Speaker 2: policies to prefer whatever those states might happen to want

1590
01:26:15,280 --> 01:26:16,519
Speaker 2: because they know those are the people.

1591
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:19,719
Speaker 1: But if you allocate it, why is ethanol? I always

1592
01:26:19,720 --> 01:26:22,679
Speaker 1: say this, why is ethanol? Yes, part of there's.

1593
01:26:22,439 --> 01:26:25,759
Speaker 2: Only one reason, because I was a swing state. Yeah.

1594
01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:25,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1595
01:26:26,280 --> 01:26:28,799
Speaker 2: If you if you divided the votes in a fractional

1596
01:26:28,840 --> 01:26:31,280
Speaker 2: way so that you know, if you get fifty four

1597
01:26:31,320 --> 01:26:33,280
Speaker 2: percent of the vote in the state, you get exactly

1598
01:26:33,360 --> 01:26:36,240
Speaker 2: fifty four percent of the electors in the state, then

1599
01:26:36,439 --> 01:26:40,320
Speaker 2: every vote across the country matters, and it's just as

1600
01:26:40,320 --> 01:26:42,360
Speaker 2: important to get votes in California as it is to

1601
01:26:42,360 --> 01:26:46,000
Speaker 2: get votes in Pennsylvania. Now, still, the small states have

1602
01:26:46,360 --> 01:26:50,679
Speaker 2: more weights because the way the electoral College is allocated,

1603
01:26:50,800 --> 01:26:53,240
Speaker 2: small states have more put But the thing about small

1604
01:26:53,280 --> 01:26:56,920
Speaker 2: states is that the smallest states are perfectly balanced between

1605
01:26:56,960 --> 01:26:59,559
Speaker 2: red and blue. The smallest ten states are five red,

1606
01:26:59,560 --> 01:27:03,000
Speaker 2: five BLUs, so it would be more small state pressure,

1607
01:27:03,439 --> 01:27:07,160
Speaker 2: but it would be pressure that allows every state vote

1608
01:27:07,240 --> 01:27:10,360
Speaker 2: to every state to matter. And the hard question, which

1609
01:27:10,400 --> 01:27:12,479
Speaker 2: I actually more I think about it, I think the

1610
01:27:12,479 --> 01:27:16,479
Speaker 2: answer is obvious is whether you need an amendment to

1611
01:27:16,560 --> 01:27:18,640
Speaker 2: do that? And the answer I think is no.

1612
01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:21,320
Speaker 1: I think I don't think you need an amendment to fractually, Well,

1613
01:27:21,320 --> 01:27:24,720
Speaker 1: I guess you don't. Maine and Nebraska do what they

1614
01:27:24,800 --> 01:27:29,160
Speaker 1: do because ultimately the state. So actually I believe because

1615
01:27:29,200 --> 01:27:34,080
Speaker 1: I remember the state of Pennsylvania actually proposed this. Oh

1616
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:37,519
Speaker 1: you know, it was Pennsylvania Republicans, and they, I want

1617
01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:41,519
Speaker 1: to say, in the first decade of this century, because

1618
01:27:41,520 --> 01:27:44,479
Speaker 1: they kept in Pennsylvania even you know, I think Carrie

1619
01:27:44,600 --> 01:27:48,080
Speaker 1: carried Pennsylvania if I'm not mistaken. You know, like Pennsylvania

1620
01:27:48,120 --> 01:27:50,240
Speaker 1: had been starting to trend blue and it would bothering

1621
01:27:50,280 --> 01:27:53,240
Speaker 1: republic Republicans there, and there was this proposal to split

1622
01:27:53,280 --> 01:27:56,559
Speaker 1: the Congression to do winter by congressional district if I'm

1623
01:27:56,560 --> 01:27:59,320
Speaker 1: the right state, but which is different and it's slightly

1624
01:27:59,360 --> 01:28:01,439
Speaker 1: different than what you're describing.

1625
01:28:01,080 --> 01:28:04,320
Speaker 2: And it's not a solution because Jerry Manderin screws that up.

1626
01:28:04,439 --> 01:28:08,200
Speaker 1: Correct, But this is a state. The point is the

1627
01:28:08,240 --> 01:28:11,760
Speaker 1: state legislatures can decide whether an elector has to be

1628
01:28:12,120 --> 01:28:14,200
Speaker 1: connected to the vote or not, which also means a

1629
01:28:14,240 --> 01:28:19,160
Speaker 1: state legislature can decide can propose a different way to

1630
01:28:19,240 --> 01:28:21,320
Speaker 1: deliver the electoral votes exactly.

1631
01:28:21,360 --> 01:28:24,080
Speaker 2: And there's nothing in the constitution that says it's got

1632
01:28:24,120 --> 01:28:26,559
Speaker 2: to be a whole vote that the elector casts. And

1633
01:28:26,680 --> 01:28:30,040
Speaker 2: of course there's nothing new in the idea of fractional votes.

1634
01:28:30,240 --> 01:28:32,400
Speaker 2: So if the state legislature has all the power, which

1635
01:28:32,400 --> 01:28:34,960
Speaker 2: is what the case I lost said, it's all the

1636
01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:37,880
Speaker 2: state legislature, then if the state legislature says we're going

1637
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:40,040
Speaker 2: to allocate all these votes like this, and then the

1638
01:28:40,080 --> 01:28:42,880
Speaker 2: final vote will be allocated in a fractional way, so

1639
01:28:43,120 --> 01:28:45,920
Speaker 2: point four to two will go to one candidate and

1640
01:28:46,280 --> 01:28:48,679
Speaker 2: zero point five to eight will go to the other candidate,

1641
01:28:49,080 --> 01:28:52,559
Speaker 2: then you know, I don't think the question is whether

1642
01:28:52,560 --> 01:28:56,280
Speaker 2: the parliamentarian accepts it. No reason why she shouldn't accept it,

1643
01:28:56,560 --> 01:28:59,559
Speaker 2: and if she accepts it, then that's it. We've got

1644
01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:01,800
Speaker 2: wait to fractionally divide it.

1645
01:29:02,439 --> 01:29:03,960
Speaker 1: I always think about, like, what what could be the

1646
01:29:04,040 --> 01:29:06,439
Speaker 1: unintended consequence, you may have some states that say, no,

1647
01:29:06,479 --> 01:29:09,559
Speaker 1: we're going to be winner take all as a way

1648
01:29:09,600 --> 01:29:14,760
Speaker 1: to entice being more important versus all, right, because if

1649
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:19,440
Speaker 1: you fractional, then suddenly and yet you know, if Pennsylvania

1650
01:29:19,720 --> 01:29:24,280
Speaker 1: makes it fractional but Wisconsin doesn't, right, then in theory,

1651
01:29:24,280 --> 01:29:27,200
Speaker 1: Wisconsin's more valuable than Pennsylvania.

1652
01:29:26,600 --> 01:29:26,960
Speaker 2: Is, right.

1653
01:29:27,040 --> 01:29:29,920
Speaker 1: But it's only valuable quote unquote electoral votes.

1654
01:29:30,040 --> 01:29:33,760
Speaker 2: It's only valuable if you're actually a swing state. And

1655
01:29:33,800 --> 01:29:36,800
Speaker 2: of course the vast majority forty two states are not

1656
01:29:36,840 --> 01:29:39,600
Speaker 2: swing states. Forty three states are not swing states. So

1657
01:29:39,760 --> 01:29:44,240
Speaker 2: for forty three states, winner take all makes them less powerful,

1658
01:29:44,800 --> 01:29:47,919
Speaker 2: and if they had fractional voting, they'd be more powerful.

1659
01:29:48,200 --> 01:29:50,320
Speaker 2: So it might be that some states want to continue

1660
01:29:50,360 --> 01:29:53,400
Speaker 2: to be winner take all. Fine, let them, But the

1661
01:29:53,439 --> 01:29:55,400
Speaker 2: point is the rest of the country will not be

1662
01:29:55,479 --> 01:29:57,680
Speaker 2: winner take all, and so they will matter to the

1663
01:29:57,720 --> 01:30:00,519
Speaker 2: presidential election in a way that right now they do not.

1664
01:30:00,760 --> 01:30:04,639
Speaker 1: So well, our tay that constitutional convention you're going to convene, Larry,

1665
01:30:05,360 --> 01:30:08,680
Speaker 1: I'm on board, man, Count me in. I'd love to

1666
01:30:08,680 --> 01:30:10,800
Speaker 1: be the parliamentarian. Actually, that'd be a lot of fun.

1667
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:14,680
Speaker 1: But that constitutional convention, there's going to be somebody that

1668
01:30:14,760 --> 01:30:17,599
Speaker 1: proposes eliminating the electoral college and going to direct copy

1669
01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:20,360
Speaker 1: of vote.

1670
01:30:19,280 --> 01:30:22,400
Speaker 2: And you know, my first preference would be that makes sense.

1671
01:30:23,160 --> 01:30:26,200
Speaker 2: But I think the reality is there's an America where

1672
01:30:26,200 --> 01:30:29,080
Speaker 2: a significant portion of America thinks the electoral college is

1673
01:30:29,080 --> 01:30:31,479
Speaker 2: a critical part of what we have. Okay, fine, so

1674
01:30:32,040 --> 01:30:35,840
Speaker 2: second best is fractional allocation of electoral votes. If you

1675
01:30:35,880 --> 01:30:38,840
Speaker 2: do that, then keep the electoral college. Small states get

1676
01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:41,280
Speaker 2: an advantage, but at least you make it so the

1677
01:30:41,320 --> 01:30:44,920
Speaker 2: president is appealing to the whole country for his or

1678
01:30:44,960 --> 01:30:47,680
Speaker 2: her election, not just to the seven swing states that

1679
01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:50,120
Speaker 2: happen to be actually competitive.

1680
01:30:50,439 --> 01:30:52,200
Speaker 1: All right, I want to nerd out one more on

1681
01:30:52,200 --> 01:30:54,600
Speaker 1: one more thing. How about multi member districts.

1682
01:30:55,040 --> 01:30:56,960
Speaker 2: I love it. I love it, so, you know.

1683
01:30:57,000 --> 01:30:58,800
Speaker 1: One of my favorite I mean, let me finish this

1684
01:30:58,840 --> 01:31:02,000
Speaker 1: thought and then get you to fully comment. I always joke,

1685
01:31:02,280 --> 01:31:05,920
Speaker 1: you know, I used to defend the electoral college, and

1686
01:31:06,160 --> 01:31:10,080
Speaker 1: I remember trying to explain it to international reporters once

1687
01:31:10,560 --> 01:31:13,599
Speaker 1: and then you're just like, you know what this is.

1688
01:31:14,120 --> 01:31:17,120
Speaker 1: It's it's not one person, one vote, and the minute

1689
01:31:17,160 --> 01:31:19,920
Speaker 1: you get lost in one person, one vote. But I've

1690
01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:22,720
Speaker 1: had a lot of friends who've participated in IRI or

1691
01:31:22,800 --> 01:31:26,240
Speaker 1: NDI Right, which is the International Arms of the Republican

1692
01:31:26,280 --> 01:31:30,920
Speaker 1: and Democratic Party, and actually it's a tremendous nonprofit that

1693
01:31:30,960 --> 01:31:32,360
Speaker 1: the two parts. It's one of the few things that

1694
01:31:32,400 --> 01:31:35,760
Speaker 1: two parties do together. That's great. They observe elections overseas.

1695
01:31:35,760 --> 01:31:40,000
Speaker 1: The idea was, it's spreading democracy, help fledgling democracy set up.

1696
01:31:40,439 --> 01:31:43,320
Speaker 1: You know, how to run a political convention, how to

1697
01:31:43,400 --> 01:31:46,720
Speaker 1: run a caucus, things like this. And one of the

1698
01:31:46,760 --> 01:31:51,040
Speaker 1: things I've always noticed is that whenever we're proposing a

1699
01:31:51,120 --> 01:31:54,080
Speaker 1: system on a country that wants to start a democracy,

1700
01:31:54,600 --> 01:31:58,559
Speaker 1: we always recommend multi member districts, but we don't do

1701
01:31:58,600 --> 01:32:00,840
Speaker 1: it in our own country. Realized, well, you've got to

1702
01:32:00,840 --> 01:32:03,640
Speaker 1: give every tribe a seat at the table or you'll know,

1703
01:32:03,760 --> 01:32:06,080
Speaker 1: or this democracy will never get off the ground. That's

1704
01:32:06,160 --> 01:32:10,639
Speaker 1: basically the thinking. And I've never understood why multi member

1705
01:32:10,640 --> 01:32:13,439
Speaker 1: districts are not appealing, particularly in the South.

1706
01:32:14,080 --> 01:32:16,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it depends on whether you tie it to

1707
01:32:17,000 --> 01:32:19,120
Speaker 2: rank choice voting. So you don't tie it to rank

1708
01:32:19,200 --> 01:32:22,360
Speaker 2: choice voting. The reason why the Voting Rights Act was

1709
01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:25,200
Speaker 2: deployed against multi member districts is there was a way

1710
01:32:25,280 --> 01:32:29,160
Speaker 2: to basically exclude minority representation. So but if you tie

1711
01:32:29,160 --> 01:32:31,800
Speaker 2: it to rank choice voting. You know, when I ran,

1712
01:32:31,920 --> 01:32:34,320
Speaker 2: that was one of the planks. It was the support

1713
01:32:34,360 --> 01:32:38,639
Speaker 2: for the Fair Representation Act, which basically says you create

1714
01:32:38,760 --> 01:32:42,040
Speaker 2: multi member congressional districts and rank choice voting within those

1715
01:32:42,160 --> 01:32:46,160
Speaker 2: districts so that you can become a congressman within a district,

1716
01:32:46,479 --> 01:32:48,719
Speaker 2: but not you know, by appealing to you know, thirty

1717
01:32:48,760 --> 01:32:50,400
Speaker 2: percent of the vote, and thirty percent of the vote

1718
01:32:50,439 --> 01:32:53,080
Speaker 2: would be enough if people allocate their electoral vote in

1719
01:32:53,080 --> 01:32:56,320
Speaker 2: the right way, and that assures that the full diversity

1720
01:32:56,360 --> 01:32:59,200
Speaker 2: of people within a district are going to be represented.

1721
01:32:59,479 --> 01:33:02,400
Speaker 2: And it also removes the concern about jerry mandry because

1722
01:33:02,439 --> 01:33:05,040
Speaker 2: now the district lines don't matter as much if you've

1723
01:33:05,040 --> 01:33:07,760
Speaker 2: got the multi member opportunity. With Frank Truan's voting, I

1724
01:33:08,400 --> 01:33:11,479
Speaker 2: totally support that in the context of the House, and

1725
01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:13,519
Speaker 2: we could do that by statute. There's nothing that would

1726
01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:14,640
Speaker 2: stop Congress from doing that.

1727
01:33:15,040 --> 01:33:18,160
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you this, my friend Lindsay Shravinsky, she's

1728
01:33:18,160 --> 01:33:21,240
Speaker 1: got a more radical idea for the Senate. She actually

1729
01:33:21,240 --> 01:33:26,599
Speaker 1: thinks that maybe you know these states that the top

1730
01:33:26,680 --> 01:33:29,760
Speaker 1: four states out to have five senators, then the next

1731
01:33:29,760 --> 01:33:33,880
Speaker 1: sort of population four three, that there should be some

1732
01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:38,839
Speaker 1: advantage now given that the Senate is just too wyoming

1733
01:33:38,880 --> 01:33:41,680
Speaker 1: and in California shouldn't have the same size representation.

1734
01:33:41,840 --> 01:33:45,200
Speaker 2: Well, she and James Madison, I mean, and al that's

1735
01:33:45,200 --> 01:33:45,920
Speaker 2: what she brought up.

1736
01:33:46,080 --> 01:33:48,800
Speaker 1: So you know this was an idea thrown around at

1737
01:33:48,840 --> 01:33:49,960
Speaker 1: the time, right.

1738
01:33:50,000 --> 01:33:52,240
Speaker 2: I mean, the big block we've got to that is

1739
01:33:52,280 --> 01:33:56,520
Speaker 2: that Article five expressly says you can't deny equal representation

1740
01:33:56,600 --> 01:34:00,200
Speaker 2: in the Senate without consent. So you could imagine in

1741
01:34:00,200 --> 01:34:02,439
Speaker 2: the system where we buy off the small states, we

1742
01:34:02,560 --> 01:34:05,040
Speaker 2: say we'll give you one hundred billion dollars if you'll

1743
01:34:05,080 --> 01:34:07,560
Speaker 2: just allow us to have a Senate that's actually proportional.

1744
01:34:07,600 --> 01:34:09,720
Speaker 2: But I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.

1745
01:34:10,360 --> 01:34:12,520
Speaker 1: Well, and by the way, this would be the opportunity

1746
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:15,559
Speaker 1: for DC statehood. Yes, right, we would have another question

1747
01:34:15,600 --> 01:34:21,640
Speaker 1: about the District of Columbia, which is also in the constitution. Yeah,

1748
01:34:21,640 --> 01:34:24,840
Speaker 1: on that front, man, Larry, I could keep nerding out

1749
01:34:24,880 --> 01:34:30,920
Speaker 1: on this, but realistically, what do you do you think

1750
01:34:30,960 --> 01:34:33,360
Speaker 1: we I mean, I feel like our politics are so

1751
01:34:33,400 --> 01:34:35,680
Speaker 1: tumultuous these days, and that there's a little bit of

1752
01:34:35,720 --> 01:34:40,200
Speaker 1: an open mindedness out there that if you told me

1753
01:34:40,240 --> 01:34:41,519
Speaker 1: that we were going to if I went into a

1754
01:34:41,560 --> 01:34:42,920
Speaker 1: coma and I woke up, Hey there's going to be

1755
01:34:42,960 --> 01:34:45,599
Speaker 1: a constitutional convention in the summer of twenty twenty nine,

1756
01:34:45,720 --> 01:34:46,559
Speaker 1: it wouldn't shock me.

1757
01:34:47,400 --> 01:34:50,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it shouldn't shock you. And I think that you

1758
01:34:50,240 --> 01:34:53,639
Speaker 2: know what we need right now are projects where people

1759
01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:58,240
Speaker 2: see that people of very different political stripes can actually

1760
01:34:58,280 --> 01:35:02,680
Speaker 2: agree on something, and you know, bounce budgements. Bounce budget

1761
01:35:02,800 --> 01:35:04,920
Speaker 2: is a harder one, but money in politics is the

1762
01:35:04,960 --> 01:35:07,479
Speaker 2: easiest one. If you all of a sudden said, look,

1763
01:35:07,720 --> 01:35:10,280
Speaker 2: can we at least agree on that, people would say yeah,

1764
01:35:10,360 --> 01:35:12,320
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden we would say we're

1765
01:35:12,360 --> 01:35:17,760
Speaker 2: not actually totally at our throats for issues. There's a

1766
01:35:17,840 --> 01:35:21,160
Speaker 2: great project out of University Maryland where they pull on

1767
01:35:22,000 --> 01:35:24,920
Speaker 2: issues and they have a huge number of issues which

1768
01:35:24,960 --> 01:35:29,040
Speaker 2: they call gold standard issues where we actually agree as citizens.

1769
01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:34,280
Speaker 2: But the dynamics of political strategy is that the parties

1770
01:35:34,280 --> 01:35:36,400
Speaker 2: are not going to emphasize the issues we agree on,

1771
01:35:36,560 --> 01:35:39,559
Speaker 2: so we are constantly convinced that we all hate each

1772
01:35:39,560 --> 01:35:43,040
Speaker 2: other and we don't agree with anything with each other.

1773
01:35:43,080 --> 01:35:45,280
Speaker 2: And that's true for a bunch of important issues. But

1774
01:35:45,320 --> 01:35:47,120
Speaker 2: we ought to at least find a way to talk

1775
01:35:47,160 --> 01:35:51,479
Speaker 2: about and demonstrate we can work together on critical issues.

1776
01:35:51,520 --> 01:35:53,960
Speaker 2: And if we could solve the money and politics problem,

1777
01:35:54,000 --> 01:35:57,080
Speaker 2: the fiscal integrity problem, the fact that you've got people

1778
01:35:57,439 --> 01:36:00,519
Speaker 2: until they are nineties in Congress, that would be pretty

1779
01:36:00,560 --> 01:36:02,000
Speaker 2: important set of victories.

1780
01:36:02,280 --> 01:36:04,240
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I've had quite a few state

1781
01:36:04,280 --> 01:36:06,960
Speaker 1: reps and state senators over the years tell me. I'm like,

1782
01:36:07,040 --> 01:36:09,559
Speaker 1: you know, you know how He's like, you know, we agree,

1783
01:36:09,560 --> 01:36:12,519
Speaker 1: and he goes. Ninety percent of the bills we vote

1784
01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:16,160
Speaker 1: on are pretty unanimous or close to unanimous. The big

1785
01:36:16,200 --> 01:36:19,400
Speaker 1: fights are over ten percent. And I'm like, that's basically Congress.

1786
01:36:19,800 --> 01:36:21,920
Speaker 1: They agree on ninety percent of the budget every year.

1787
01:36:22,040 --> 01:36:24,559
Speaker 1: The fight is over the last ten percent. Now it's

1788
01:36:24,600 --> 01:36:27,559
Speaker 1: the ten percent they disagree on the most. But you're

1789
01:36:27,640 --> 01:36:30,600
Speaker 1: right there, really is it is. It is one of

1790
01:36:30,600 --> 01:36:33,920
Speaker 1: those things that you know, compared to a lot of

1791
01:36:33,920 --> 01:36:35,839
Speaker 1: other things, there's more agreement than you realize.

1792
01:36:36,000 --> 01:36:38,160
Speaker 2: Yes, and we ought to be exploiting it because that

1793
01:36:38,200 --> 01:36:40,519
Speaker 2: would convince us there's a reason to continue to hang

1794
01:36:40,560 --> 01:36:43,519
Speaker 2: together as a nation, right because right now or many

1795
01:36:43,520 --> 01:36:46,080
Speaker 2: people are thinking, like, why are we actually hanging together anymore?

1796
01:36:46,120 --> 01:36:48,519
Speaker 2: Like aren't we so divided that we should just accept it?

1797
01:36:48,560 --> 01:36:51,760
Speaker 1: And I got a viewer question about this about a

1798
01:36:51,760 --> 01:36:56,040
Speaker 1: civil war, and I just said, you know, I sort

1799
01:36:56,040 --> 01:36:59,799
Speaker 1: of logistically don't believe it's going to happen, because unlike

1800
01:37:00,120 --> 01:37:04,640
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, you know, we sort of our divides

1801
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:10,200
Speaker 1: aren't aren't aligned with geography. And I think that that,

1802
01:37:10,280 --> 01:37:15,080
Speaker 1: in a weird way, probably keeps us from having a

1803
01:37:15,120 --> 01:37:18,639
Speaker 1: hot civil war versus maybe what we're going through now,

1804
01:37:18,640 --> 01:37:20,599
Speaker 1: which might be a cold cultural civil war.

1805
01:37:20,720 --> 01:37:24,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. But if you think about kind of like extending

1806
01:37:24,720 --> 01:37:28,760
Speaker 2: legs on Canada, right, so on the coasts, you come

1807
01:37:28,840 --> 01:37:31,280
Speaker 2: down on each coast and maybe you reach down to

1808
01:37:31,280 --> 01:37:38,200
Speaker 2: get Minnesota and Illinois somehow, you know, that's pretty geographically manageable.

1809
01:37:38,240 --> 01:37:39,200
Speaker 2: I mean I used to.

1810
01:37:39,120 --> 01:37:41,160
Speaker 1: Say, if you touch a large body of water, you're

1811
01:37:41,200 --> 01:37:44,280
Speaker 1: more likely a blue state. Yeah, yeah, right, I mean

1812
01:37:44,280 --> 01:37:46,640
Speaker 1: there's some South Carolina, Mississippi. I'm not going to sit

1813
01:37:46,680 --> 01:37:50,000
Speaker 1: here and say that there aren't exceptions, but largely that

1814
01:37:50,200 --> 01:37:54,400
Speaker 1: was sort of true for for a while, less so

1815
01:37:54,520 --> 01:37:56,880
Speaker 1: now with Florida and such.

1816
01:37:58,000 --> 01:37:59,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's not happy. I hope that's not how.

1817
01:38:00,200 --> 01:38:01,640
Speaker 2: I don't want to see that happen but there are

1818
01:38:01,680 --> 01:38:03,360
Speaker 2: people who a strategizing on that too.

1819
01:38:04,600 --> 01:38:08,360
Speaker 1: Larry Lessik, I enjoyed this. I want I want to

1820
01:38:08,360 --> 01:38:10,200
Speaker 1: stay up to date, not just on this case, this

1821
01:38:10,240 --> 01:38:13,559
Speaker 1: campaign finance case, which could that would be like I said,

1822
01:38:13,560 --> 01:38:17,679
Speaker 1: the Luke Skywalker single shot to blow up super Packs?

1823
01:38:18,120 --> 01:38:21,080
Speaker 1: You know who secretly wants to see super Packs go away?

1824
01:38:21,400 --> 01:38:24,720
Speaker 1: The donors? Of course, how many donors have you talked

1825
01:38:24,760 --> 01:38:26,439
Speaker 1: to going? But I would love to find out it's

1826
01:38:26,479 --> 01:38:28,479
Speaker 1: illegal to have to write a five million dollars gosh,

1827
01:38:28,439 --> 01:38:29,640
Speaker 1: I want asked for it.

1828
01:38:30,000 --> 01:38:32,479
Speaker 2: One of our biggest supporters, in fact, the first big

1829
01:38:32,520 --> 01:38:36,960
Speaker 2: supporter you know, said I'm supporting this because I don't

1830
01:38:37,000 --> 01:38:39,200
Speaker 2: think we should have this power. I think it's wrong

1831
01:38:39,280 --> 01:38:41,760
Speaker 2: that rich people have this power. And then ten minutes

1832
01:38:41,800 --> 01:38:44,439
Speaker 2: later in the conversation he's like, and boy, if we win,

1833
01:38:44,800 --> 01:38:46,559
Speaker 2: I don't have to be writing all these checks all

1834
01:38:46,560 --> 01:38:48,759
Speaker 2: the time to all these people begging me for money.

1835
01:38:48,760 --> 01:38:51,120
Speaker 2: And it's like, either way, I'm happy, Like as long

1836
01:38:51,160 --> 01:38:53,960
Speaker 2: as you're supporting the idea of ending it. And that's

1837
01:38:53,960 --> 01:38:56,559
Speaker 2: been the most like rewarding. There's a large number of

1838
01:38:56,600 --> 01:38:58,639
Speaker 2: like we've got a group of right now about eight

1839
01:38:58,680 --> 01:39:02,200
Speaker 2: billionaires who say Look, we didn't ask for this power.

1840
01:39:02,320 --> 01:39:05,679
Speaker 2: We don't believe we should have this power. We're funding

1841
01:39:05,720 --> 01:39:08,839
Speaker 2: the fight to end us having this power, so spending

1842
01:39:08,880 --> 01:39:12,080
Speaker 2: our money to reduce our own political impact. And I

1843
01:39:12,120 --> 01:39:15,040
Speaker 2: think that's kind of something people ought to see that, like,

1844
01:39:15,080 --> 01:39:18,200
Speaker 2: the billionaires are not united in the idea that the

1845
01:39:18,280 --> 01:39:20,519
Speaker 2: fact that people like Elon are allowed to do what

1846
01:39:20,520 --> 01:39:22,479
Speaker 2: they're allowed they're able to do is a good thing

1847
01:39:22,479 --> 01:39:24,680
Speaker 2: for democracy because it clearly is not.

1848
01:39:25,479 --> 01:39:30,599
Speaker 1: No, I think we are where we are due to

1849
01:39:30,640 --> 01:39:34,880
Speaker 1: this perversion of of of of money. It's it's hard

1850
01:39:34,920 --> 01:39:38,200
Speaker 1: to come to any other conclusion or less. Like I

1851
01:39:38,240 --> 01:39:41,599
Speaker 1: feel like I got to audit one of your classes

1852
01:39:41,640 --> 01:39:42,880
Speaker 1: at Harvard, so I appreciate it.

1853
01:39:42,920 --> 01:39:48,640
Speaker 2: Good to see it, great to see your chart.

1854
01:39:55,000 --> 01:39:57,640
Speaker 1: Well are you fired up for a constitutional convention? I

1855
01:39:57,640 --> 01:40:01,479
Speaker 1: know I am. It is something we ne need. It

1856
01:40:01,600 --> 01:40:05,479
Speaker 1: is something that is probably overdue. And again, if you

1857
01:40:05,680 --> 01:40:07,960
Speaker 1: had a chance to listen to my interview with on

1858
01:40:08,080 --> 01:40:11,880
Speaker 1: Newsphere this week, it all comes together right. My conversation

1859
01:40:11,960 --> 01:40:14,479
Speaker 1: on Newspare this week was with Lindsay Shervinsky. She runs

1860
01:40:14,479 --> 01:40:19,519
Speaker 1: the George Washington Presidential Library at Mount Vernon in Virginia,

1861
01:40:21,080 --> 01:40:23,240
Speaker 1: something she has said to me a few times, and

1862
01:40:23,280 --> 01:40:25,000
Speaker 1: she says in the interview, so please check it out.

1863
01:40:25,000 --> 01:40:27,040
Speaker 1: It's we have a very good discussion about sort of

1864
01:40:27,080 --> 01:40:30,240
Speaker 1: like how would the Founders be reacting to what we're

1865
01:40:30,240 --> 01:40:35,559
Speaker 1: watching today. But the biggest response, the biggest shock she

1866
01:40:35,680 --> 01:40:38,400
Speaker 1: believes the Founders would have today, is how few amendments

1867
01:40:38,439 --> 01:40:42,559
Speaker 1: of the constitution, And in fact, she says, shock that

1868
01:40:42,600 --> 01:40:45,360
Speaker 1: we still have the same constitution. She said, many of

1869
01:40:45,400 --> 01:40:48,440
Speaker 1: them thought that the you know, the Articles of Confederation

1870
01:40:48,880 --> 01:40:52,160
Speaker 1: barely lasted a decade, so why did they They didn't

1871
01:40:52,160 --> 01:40:55,240
Speaker 1: have a lot of faith that the second Constitution that

1872
01:40:55,280 --> 01:40:57,840
Speaker 1: they wrote was going to last more than say, a generation,

1873
01:40:58,360 --> 01:41:00,559
Speaker 1: So the fact that it lasted this long would shock them,

1874
01:41:00,720 --> 01:41:02,559
Speaker 1: and the fact that it hadn't been amended all that

1875
01:41:02,680 --> 01:41:05,680
Speaker 1: much would be the second shock. All right, Before I

1876
01:41:05,720 --> 01:41:08,160
Speaker 1: get to some questions, a couple of them actually have

1877
01:41:08,240 --> 01:41:10,120
Speaker 1: to do with what we just talked about. When I

1878
01:41:10,200 --> 01:41:12,080
Speaker 1: get to my little sports page from over the weekend.

1879
01:41:12,640 --> 01:41:16,800
Speaker 1: So you know, I'm gonna be honest, I'm kind of

1880
01:41:16,840 --> 01:41:20,160
Speaker 1: in a working vacation, right, which means I've carved out

1881
01:41:20,160 --> 01:41:23,640
Speaker 1: my weekends in such a way. We want to do

1882
01:41:23,680 --> 01:41:26,560
Speaker 1: a little bit of relaxation. You can't wait. I have

1883
01:41:26,640 --> 01:41:28,720
Speaker 1: to tell you one of my favorite golf termams to

1884
01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:30,880
Speaker 1: watch is the British Open. I know when I liked

1885
01:41:30,880 --> 01:41:33,720
Speaker 1: call a British Open is the Open. But what makes

1886
01:41:33,760 --> 01:41:37,080
Speaker 1: it fun is the crazy ass weather. Right, you just

1887
01:41:37,160 --> 01:41:38,920
Speaker 1: don't know in any given day, you're like, whoa, it's

1888
01:41:38,960 --> 01:41:41,080
Speaker 1: a windy day. Oh it's rainy day. Oh look there's

1889
01:41:41,120 --> 01:41:44,400
Speaker 1: sun for ten minutes. And it is all about sort

1890
01:41:44,400 --> 01:41:49,240
Speaker 1: of navigating and sort of the extra challenges. Well we

1891
01:41:49,320 --> 01:41:52,120
Speaker 1: got a new we got nothing but great weather. And

1892
01:41:52,160 --> 01:41:55,680
Speaker 1: what happened. It looked like the Honda Classic. Everybody was

1893
01:41:55,720 --> 01:41:58,680
Speaker 1: scoring on this on this golf course. Some have a

1894
01:41:58,720 --> 01:42:01,679
Speaker 1: golf course when it it's just a normal sunny day

1895
01:42:01,800 --> 01:42:05,680
Speaker 1: without much win was just a pedestrian golf course that

1896
01:42:05,760 --> 01:42:10,160
Speaker 1: these guys today could just dominate. And of course Scotty Scheffler,

1897
01:42:10,200 --> 01:42:14,160
Speaker 1: the machine. Look, kudos to him, that was just a

1898
01:42:14,640 --> 01:42:18,280
Speaker 1: I mean, the guy just does it self destruct right,

1899
01:42:18,840 --> 01:42:23,240
Speaker 1: Like that's what's impressive, his inability. He does not seem

1900
01:42:23,320 --> 01:42:26,400
Speaker 1: to let the moment ever get too big for him.

1901
01:42:27,080 --> 01:42:31,840
Speaker 1: It is. It was impressive, but can I express disappointment?

1902
01:42:31,960 --> 01:42:34,479
Speaker 1: There was really nothing to watch, you know, you were

1903
01:42:34,560 --> 01:42:36,400
Speaker 1: kind of like, hell, is Rory going to make a run,

1904
01:42:36,439 --> 01:42:37,840
Speaker 1: And it was kind of cool. He kind of made

1905
01:42:37,840 --> 01:42:40,040
Speaker 1: a run on Saturday, and he thought and then all

1906
01:42:40,040 --> 01:42:42,360
Speaker 1: of a sudden, Scheffler just started putting on the gas.

1907
01:42:43,080 --> 01:42:48,040
Speaker 1: I mean it was it was I as a sports fan,

1908
01:42:48,120 --> 01:42:50,559
Speaker 1: I was disappointed, which and then of course brings me

1909
01:42:51,080 --> 01:42:53,920
Speaker 1: to my beloved Washington Nets and I promised, as soon

1910
01:42:53,960 --> 01:42:57,880
Speaker 1: as football season starts, I'll stop being Debbie Downer about

1911
01:42:57,880 --> 01:43:01,320
Speaker 1: the Nats. But good grief, there is simply no leadership

1912
01:43:01,320 --> 01:43:04,559
Speaker 1: in this franchise right now. What the hell is their plan?

1913
01:43:04,960 --> 01:43:06,840
Speaker 1: Are they going to try to contend next year or not?

1914
01:43:07,320 --> 01:43:09,400
Speaker 1: Are they making an effort to win or not? There's

1915
01:43:09,439 --> 01:43:11,479
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of season ticket renewals are about to

1916
01:43:11,520 --> 01:43:13,720
Speaker 1: go out, and do you realize that the ownership is

1917
01:43:13,800 --> 01:43:16,400
Speaker 1: yet to talk to the fans at all, yet to

1918
01:43:16,479 --> 01:43:19,800
Speaker 1: explain other than in one press release. You know why

1919
01:43:20,000 --> 01:43:24,240
Speaker 1: fans shouldn't just be shouldn't assume the worst that they're

1920
01:43:24,280 --> 01:43:27,000
Speaker 1: done competing for this decade. I believe they're done for

1921
01:43:27,040 --> 01:43:29,400
Speaker 1: the decade that right now. They've put themselves in a

1922
01:43:29,400 --> 01:43:32,400
Speaker 1: situation the draft when they decided to draft a high

1923
01:43:32,400 --> 01:43:34,839
Speaker 1: school guy, which means it's an automatic three year project.

1924
01:43:34,960 --> 01:43:38,160
Speaker 1: You're not you know, not unless you're drafting Bryce Harper.

1925
01:43:38,200 --> 01:43:40,559
Speaker 1: You're not getting a high school guy that's ready on

1926
01:43:40,680 --> 01:43:43,479
Speaker 1: day one, all right. Very few of those guys existed, Yes,

1927
01:43:44,000 --> 01:43:47,120
Speaker 1: sod on Harper. If this guy sold on Harper, god

1928
01:43:47,120 --> 01:43:49,759
Speaker 1: bless them, all right, But he's probably more like Brady House.

1929
01:43:50,160 --> 01:43:52,240
Speaker 1: Brady House was drafted out of high school, took two

1930
01:43:52,320 --> 01:43:55,280
Speaker 1: or three years, sort of mature, grow into the position.

1931
01:43:55,600 --> 01:43:58,559
Speaker 1: Takes time, all right. That is not the draft pick

1932
01:43:58,560 --> 01:44:01,800
Speaker 1: of a franchise looking to start. We've already made that.

1933
01:44:01,840 --> 01:44:03,880
Speaker 1: This ownership group made the decision over the last four

1934
01:44:03,960 --> 01:44:06,680
Speaker 1: years not to spend money and not to contend in

1935
01:44:06,960 --> 01:44:09,360
Speaker 1: the last four years. Is this now going to continue

1936
01:44:09,360 --> 01:44:12,439
Speaker 1: to be the plan? Whatever the plan is, can somebody

1937
01:44:12,479 --> 01:44:14,799
Speaker 1: talk on behalf of the franchise. Not put this acting

1938
01:44:14,840 --> 01:44:17,680
Speaker 1: general manager out there to speak for the franchise when

1939
01:44:17,680 --> 01:44:19,800
Speaker 1: nobody's going to believe a single word he has to say?

1940
01:44:20,720 --> 01:44:23,439
Speaker 1: Where is the ownership? Mark Lerner, You need to come

1941
01:44:23,479 --> 01:44:26,320
Speaker 1: out here and speak to the fans. Is it worth

1942
01:44:26,400 --> 01:44:28,120
Speaker 1: buying season take You know why I bought it, started

1943
01:44:28,120 --> 01:44:30,799
Speaker 1: buying season tickets because I'm wanted access to playoff tickets.

1944
01:44:31,439 --> 01:44:33,000
Speaker 1: You know, the last time I actually had to put

1945
01:44:33,000 --> 01:44:36,639
Speaker 1: down a deposit on playoff tickets, it was the last decade.

1946
01:44:36,720 --> 01:44:40,439
Speaker 1: My friend, you need to make the case for why

1947
01:44:40,479 --> 01:44:43,040
Speaker 1: we should continue to be season ticket holders, because I

1948
01:44:43,080 --> 01:44:45,320
Speaker 1: don't hear a good case to be made at all.

1949
01:44:46,439 --> 01:44:49,520
Speaker 1: I enjoy plenty of knights at the ballpark the secondary market.

1950
01:44:49,840 --> 01:44:51,840
Speaker 1: You know, given that you can't draw unless you have

1951
01:44:51,880 --> 01:44:54,519
Speaker 1: a good out of town team, will you do something

1952
01:44:54,760 --> 01:44:58,840
Speaker 1: either that or sell the team please? Because this zombie

1953
01:44:59,280 --> 01:45:03,479
Speaker 1: type of manager is not working. It's a disaster and

1954
01:45:03,720 --> 01:45:07,040
Speaker 1: you can kind of feel it the players. The way

1955
01:45:07,160 --> 01:45:11,600
Speaker 1: this team plays on the field is a reflection of

1956
01:45:11,680 --> 01:45:15,880
Speaker 1: the leadership in the front office and in the ownership suite.

1957
01:45:16,760 --> 01:45:21,000
Speaker 1: It's that frustrating, and it's a bummer. I want this

1958
01:45:21,040 --> 01:45:24,480
Speaker 1: is the part. This is my free time. It's frustrating

1959
01:45:24,600 --> 01:45:27,880
Speaker 1: enough covering this debacle that is American politics right now.

1960
01:45:28,760 --> 01:45:31,360
Speaker 1: We've got the kleptocracy and the Republican Party. We've got

1961
01:45:31,360 --> 01:45:35,639
Speaker 1: the fecklessness of the Democratic Party. We've got a system

1962
01:45:35,680 --> 01:45:38,679
Speaker 1: that really needs some new blood into it, and yet

1963
01:45:38,720 --> 01:45:41,479
Speaker 1: the two parties won't you know, it's a duoptling won't

1964
01:45:41,479 --> 01:45:45,599
Speaker 1: allow it. So my break is sports, and when it's

1965
01:45:45,680 --> 01:45:51,479
Speaker 1: run by people who aren't interested in succeeding, it's awfully

1966
01:45:51,520 --> 01:45:55,200
Speaker 1: frustrating to sit here and be a fan and spend

1967
01:45:55,200 --> 01:45:57,760
Speaker 1: the amount of money that I've spent to support the

1968
01:45:57,840 --> 01:46:03,240
Speaker 1: Washington Nationals each season since twenty fourteen. All right, let

1969
01:46:03,280 --> 01:46:10,479
Speaker 1: me take a few questions ask Chuck. First one comes

1970
01:46:10,479 --> 01:46:15,280
Speaker 1: from Judd in Montreal, home of the Montreal expos. We

1971
01:46:15,880 --> 01:46:19,320
Speaker 1: embrace the Montreal expos us Washington Nats fans, he says,

1972
01:46:19,400 --> 01:46:21,000
Speaker 1: Chuck loved you on Meet the Press. I'm a big

1973
01:46:21,080 --> 01:46:23,360
Speaker 1: fan of the podcast now too. I've heard that academics

1974
01:46:23,360 --> 01:46:27,879
Speaker 1: often draft proposed constitutional amendments, and I've read Justice Stevens's

1975
01:46:27,880 --> 01:46:30,800
Speaker 1: book suggesting six of them. As we approach America's two

1976
01:46:30,840 --> 01:46:33,920
Speaker 1: hundred fiftieth birthday, should a constitutional Congress be away for

1977
01:46:34,000 --> 01:46:37,439
Speaker 1: Democrats to fight fire with fire and push for real reforms? Hey,

1978
01:46:37,520 --> 01:46:39,640
Speaker 1: jud now that I got to your question and you

1979
01:46:39,720 --> 01:46:41,760
Speaker 1: just heard the Larry Lesson interview, what do you think

1980
01:46:41,800 --> 01:46:43,760
Speaker 1: I think? And what do you think Larry thinks? The

1981
01:46:43,760 --> 01:46:46,840
Speaker 1: point is, Look, we knew we had this question. I'm

1982
01:46:46,920 --> 01:46:49,000
Speaker 1: using it, Judge. I just want to give you great

1983
01:46:49,080 --> 01:46:53,360
Speaker 1: minds think alike. I'm obsessed with this. The answer is yes, okay,

1984
01:46:53,680 --> 01:46:56,920
Speaker 1: And it is not just Democrats, it is Americans, right,

1985
01:46:57,000 --> 01:46:59,760
Speaker 1: I promise you I am not coming at this from

1986
01:46:59,800 --> 01:47:02,960
Speaker 1: partartisan left or partisan right. People try to put me

1987
01:47:03,000 --> 01:47:06,360
Speaker 1: in there. Just because I'm extraordinarily critical of the low

1988
01:47:06,439 --> 01:47:08,439
Speaker 1: character of Donald Trump and the fact that he's turned

1989
01:47:08,439 --> 01:47:11,320
Speaker 1: the Republican Party to a kleptocracy does not mean I'm

1990
01:47:11,360 --> 01:47:14,480
Speaker 1: anti conservative at all. There's a lot of good conservative

1991
01:47:14,520 --> 01:47:17,920
Speaker 1: ideas that I like, and the fact that I bashed

1992
01:47:17,960 --> 01:47:21,439
Speaker 1: Trump doesn't mean I'm embracing all this left wing ideas.

1993
01:47:21,479 --> 01:47:24,519
Speaker 1: But there's plenty of ideas in the Democratic side that

1994
01:47:24,640 --> 01:47:28,720
Speaker 1: I like. I do consider myself somewhere that believes of

1995
01:47:28,800 --> 01:47:32,639
Speaker 1: politics is I believe that sometimes you can't have more.

1996
01:47:33,200 --> 01:47:36,599
Speaker 1: I don't like one party control of either party, because

1997
01:47:36,640 --> 01:47:39,240
Speaker 1: they all get high in their own supply at some point. Right,

1998
01:47:39,560 --> 01:47:41,519
Speaker 1: I like the idea of a check and balance. Every

1999
01:47:41,560 --> 01:47:43,840
Speaker 1: once in a while you need one party to get

2000
01:47:43,880 --> 01:47:46,599
Speaker 1: some power in order to sort of bring the other

2001
01:47:46,680 --> 01:47:51,200
Speaker 1: party back from it from its stupor, and vice versa.

2002
01:47:51,439 --> 01:47:54,559
Speaker 1: So I take your point as a way to Democrats

2003
01:47:54,600 --> 01:47:55,880
Speaker 1: to fight fire with fire. I think this is a

2004
01:47:55,920 --> 01:47:58,120
Speaker 1: way for Americans to fight fire or fire. We need

2005
01:47:58,120 --> 01:48:02,880
Speaker 1: to close the loopholes that Donald Trump's ill liberal democratic

2006
01:48:03,000 --> 01:48:07,360
Speaker 1: views have exposed and exploited. All right, Number two, do

2007
01:48:07,400 --> 01:48:10,040
Speaker 1: you think when they depressed MAGA base in Ohio that

2008
01:48:10,120 --> 01:48:12,799
Speaker 1: it will be competitive for ds in the govern Senate? Racist?

2009
01:48:12,800 --> 01:48:18,920
Speaker 1: Thanks Josh B. Do I think? Oh? Look, I think

2010
01:48:19,040 --> 01:48:22,040
Speaker 1: without Donald Trump on the ballot, we know that there

2011
01:48:22,160 --> 01:48:24,200
Speaker 1: is a group of voters that don't show up. Right,

2012
01:48:24,520 --> 01:48:28,639
Speaker 1: how do we know this? Democrats have more Senate seats

2013
01:48:28,640 --> 01:48:32,800
Speaker 1: than they would have if otherwise. Right, Donald Trump carried Wisconsin,

2014
01:48:32,920 --> 01:48:35,519
Speaker 1: but Democrats won the Senate se Donald Trump carried Nevada,

2015
01:48:35,560 --> 01:48:38,559
Speaker 1: but Democrats won the senence. Donald Trump carried Michigan, but

2016
01:48:38,600 --> 01:48:41,839
Speaker 1: Democrats won the senatec Donald Trump carried Arizona, but Democrats.

2017
01:48:41,960 --> 01:48:44,840
Speaker 1: You see the pattern here, right, Only in Pennsylvania was

2018
01:48:44,880 --> 01:48:47,679
Speaker 1: he able to carry the Senate seat in the state.

2019
01:48:47,960 --> 01:48:50,760
Speaker 1: There's something called shotgun Trump voters that I've talked about

2020
01:48:50,840 --> 01:48:53,479
Speaker 1: quite a bit. And if you're my guess is, if

2021
01:48:53,520 --> 01:48:55,920
Speaker 1: you're doing the Q and A, if you're still listening

2022
01:48:55,920 --> 01:48:57,960
Speaker 1: at the Q and A, you've already heard me expound

2023
01:48:58,040 --> 01:49:01,000
Speaker 1: upon that. I think the fact that that Now, look,

2024
01:49:01,080 --> 01:49:04,479
Speaker 1: I think Donald Trump and his campaign team is trying

2025
01:49:04,479 --> 01:49:05,960
Speaker 1: to come up with a better way to get these

2026
01:49:05,960 --> 01:49:09,320
Speaker 1: folks out the vote. All right, but we saw Elon

2027
01:49:09,400 --> 01:49:10,880
Speaker 1: Musk wanted to pay him to come out to vote.

2028
01:49:10,920 --> 01:49:14,360
Speaker 1: That didn't work in Wisconsin. If anything, Elon Musk's presence

2029
01:49:14,360 --> 01:49:16,719
Speaker 1: made it worse for the conservative side, and that Supreme

2030
01:49:16,720 --> 01:49:20,360
Speaker 1: Court race back in April not better. But ultimately the

2031
01:49:20,400 --> 01:49:22,639
Speaker 1: answer is yes. But I also think Ohio's a light

2032
01:49:22,680 --> 01:49:26,000
Speaker 1: red state. It never went deep red. I think Ramaswami's

2033
01:49:26,040 --> 01:49:31,000
Speaker 1: probably too maga for the state. Doesn't mean he won't win, Okay,

2034
01:49:31,360 --> 01:49:34,880
Speaker 1: he got a couple of interesting Democrats. If shared Brown runs,

2035
01:49:35,640 --> 01:49:38,200
Speaker 1: it does appear he's more likely to run for governor

2036
01:49:38,240 --> 01:49:41,040
Speaker 1: than Senate, which I find interesting. That's the latest chatter

2037
01:49:41,080 --> 01:49:45,000
Speaker 1: I've been hearing on this front. That's a disappointment to.

2038
01:49:47,640 --> 01:49:48,080
Speaker 2: Schumer.

2039
01:49:49,280 --> 01:49:52,040
Speaker 1: But I understand what Shared Brown's thinking. I think it's

2040
01:49:52,120 --> 01:49:55,000
Speaker 1: easier to beat Ramaswami than it would be for him

2041
01:49:55,120 --> 01:49:58,599
Speaker 1: to beat John Houstead, who's the appointed senator and will

2042
01:49:58,600 --> 01:50:02,240
Speaker 1: be running as the incumbent. So if you're deciding which rate,

2043
01:50:02,280 --> 01:50:05,920
Speaker 1: and I just think that Shared Brown would have probably

2044
01:50:07,479 --> 01:50:12,599
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of Ramaswami where he's going

2045
01:50:12,680 --> 01:50:17,080
Speaker 1: to make. You know, he he can't help himself. He's

2046
01:50:17,880 --> 01:50:21,360
Speaker 1: almost too undisciplined to be disciplined, right, you know, he

2047
01:50:21,720 --> 01:50:25,880
Speaker 1: will he will talk talk talk, talk talk, and he's

2048
01:50:25,920 --> 01:50:27,479
Speaker 1: the kind of guy that his mouth is a lot

2049
01:50:27,560 --> 01:50:30,559
Speaker 1: more likely to get him in trouble than not. And

2050
01:50:30,600 --> 01:50:33,800
Speaker 1: it would be an interesting contrast with Sharon Brown on

2051
01:50:33,800 --> 01:50:35,679
Speaker 1: that front, and it would be an old versus new

2052
01:50:35,800 --> 01:50:39,240
Speaker 1: and that might help Ramaswami, But he is the incumbent administration.

2053
01:50:41,479 --> 01:50:44,320
Speaker 1: So I still think it's going to be interesting to

2054
01:50:44,320 --> 01:50:46,880
Speaker 1: see if Mike DeWine can find a non MAGA candidate

2055
01:50:46,920 --> 01:50:48,680
Speaker 1: to run in the Republican primary. He's been trying to

2056
01:50:48,680 --> 01:50:51,000
Speaker 1: see if he can get Jim Trussell, the former Ohio

2057
01:50:51,040 --> 01:50:54,879
Speaker 1: state football coach who's now the current lieutenant governor, replacing

2058
01:50:55,360 --> 01:51:00,400
Speaker 1: the lieutenant governor that Dwine appointed to the Senate seat. So, uh,

2059
01:51:00,640 --> 01:51:04,120
Speaker 1: you know, I don't think Democrats are going to be

2060
01:51:04,160 --> 01:51:06,960
Speaker 1: competitive in Ohio if they don't get Shared Brown Indoor

2061
01:51:07,000 --> 01:51:09,320
Speaker 1: Tim Ryan on that ticket, and probably Shared Brown means

2062
01:51:09,320 --> 01:51:11,839
Speaker 1: more than anybody. He would give a vote of confidence

2063
01:51:11,880 --> 01:51:14,439
Speaker 1: to a bunch of dem donors in general, then maybe

2064
01:51:14,439 --> 01:51:17,839
Speaker 1: there'd be a competent, coordinated campaign and a competent statewide

2065
01:51:17,840 --> 01:51:22,679
Speaker 1: effort to do that. I'd be fascinated. But it does

2066
01:51:22,720 --> 01:51:26,120
Speaker 1: appear if Brown does run for anything, the smart money

2067
01:51:26,160 --> 01:51:28,400
Speaker 1: lately has been on him running for governor, which would

2068
01:51:28,400 --> 01:51:31,080
Speaker 1: mean would we see Tim Ryan for Senate? Tim Ryan's

2069
01:51:31,080 --> 01:51:32,599
Speaker 1: been spending an awful lot of time with the pro

2070
01:51:32,640 --> 01:51:38,400
Speaker 1: crypto crowd. Does that help him in this instance? Or

2071
01:51:39,000 --> 01:51:41,400
Speaker 1: is he making too much money in cryptotes doesn't want

2072
01:51:41,439 --> 01:51:46,960
Speaker 1: to get back into politics? All right? Last question, this

2073
01:51:47,080 --> 01:51:50,439
Speaker 1: comes from Brent p. He calls himself a former Florida

2074
01:51:50,560 --> 01:51:54,479
Speaker 1: native now living in Austin, Texas, and he writes this

2075
01:51:54,600 --> 01:51:56,519
Speaker 1: check seems like every cycle in Texas, no matter what

2076
01:51:56,560 --> 01:51:59,840
Speaker 1: tragedy strikes our state, our Republican representatives never get voted

2077
01:51:59,840 --> 01:52:01,960
Speaker 1: out out of the governorship or a Senate seat, and

2078
01:52:02,000 --> 01:52:07,800
Speaker 1: twenty twenty six Democrat finally wins statewide. If what happens, well, look,

2079
01:52:07,920 --> 01:52:11,240
Speaker 1: I think overreach. You know when does any sort of

2080
01:52:11,360 --> 01:52:14,280
Speaker 1: run for a single party, And it's when there's perceived

2081
01:52:14,320 --> 01:52:17,160
Speaker 1: overreach and there's sort of a staleness to the ideas.

2082
01:52:17,520 --> 01:52:21,439
Speaker 1: I think this latest Jerrymander reeks of sort of a

2083
01:52:21,479 --> 01:52:26,360
Speaker 1: political power play that could come with a backlash if

2084
01:52:26,400 --> 01:52:28,600
Speaker 1: Abbott is indeed going to run again, and it does

2085
01:52:28,680 --> 01:52:31,320
Speaker 1: seem as if he's definitely going to run again. I

2086
01:52:31,360 --> 01:52:34,720
Speaker 1: know that Texas Republican leaders think they're kind of bulletproof

2087
01:52:34,800 --> 01:52:37,400
Speaker 1: right now, think that it doesn't matter what they do,

2088
01:52:37,479 --> 01:52:39,640
Speaker 1: they can get away with anything. And that's usually the

2089
01:52:39,680 --> 01:52:45,120
Speaker 1: moment that I but, you know, the we're you know,

2090
01:52:45,200 --> 01:52:47,519
Speaker 1: I think that the type of candidate that's going to

2091
01:52:47,560 --> 01:52:50,840
Speaker 1: win statewide that's not a Republican has got to be

2092
01:52:50,880 --> 01:52:54,439
Speaker 1: an unusual biography. Maybe it's this former astronaut who's decided

2093
01:52:54,479 --> 01:52:56,559
Speaker 1: to run the Senate seat. I do think all the

2094
01:52:56,600 --> 01:52:59,520
Speaker 1: mess in that Senate race, if Ken Paxson's the Republican nominee,

2095
01:52:59,680 --> 01:53:02,280
Speaker 1: that's certainly opens the door for a Democrat to win.

2096
01:53:05,160 --> 01:53:07,720
Speaker 1: But it is you know, is there going to be

2097
01:53:08,840 --> 01:53:13,160
Speaker 1: a business you know, here's somebody that would you know,

2098
01:53:13,240 --> 01:53:15,000
Speaker 1: I know Mark Cuban is more interested in running for

2099
01:53:15,000 --> 01:53:17,000
Speaker 1: president than anything else. If he chose to run for

2100
01:53:17,080 --> 01:53:23,880
Speaker 1: governor as an independent even or as a Democrat. Could

2101
01:53:23,880 --> 01:53:26,519
Speaker 1: I see Mark Cuban winning the governorship? I could, so.

2102
01:53:26,960 --> 01:53:30,960
Speaker 1: I think there are ways if that happens. I don't

2103
01:53:31,040 --> 01:53:34,479
Speaker 1: know if a conventional type of candidate, you know, somebody

2104
01:53:34,520 --> 01:53:38,040
Speaker 1: who is a former member of Congress or somebody that

2105
01:53:38,120 --> 01:53:41,360
Speaker 1: has run before. I don't know if I would do

2106
01:53:41,439 --> 01:53:44,599
Speaker 1: a name, you know, because it's a politically familiar name.

2107
01:53:45,040 --> 01:53:49,120
Speaker 1: I think i'd want somebody who hasn't run before, like

2108
01:53:49,160 --> 01:53:52,360
Speaker 1: a Mark Cuban, or if somebody who maybe is a

2109
01:53:52,400 --> 01:53:57,920
Speaker 1: party switcher. But definitely somebody with a military background would

2110
01:53:57,960 --> 01:54:02,760
Speaker 1: be of use. So you know, Bill mcgraven, could they

2111
01:54:02,840 --> 01:54:06,400
Speaker 1: convince him to run for governor as an independent or

2112
01:54:06,479 --> 01:54:08,280
Speaker 1: as a light D I don't think he'd ever run

2113
01:54:08,320 --> 01:54:11,280
Speaker 1: as a member of either political party, but those are

2114
01:54:11,280 --> 01:54:15,280
Speaker 1: the type of folks that I think could. I definitely

2115
01:54:15,320 --> 01:54:18,240
Speaker 1: think there's a majority interested in seeing a check on

2116
01:54:18,280 --> 01:54:21,120
Speaker 1: the Republican power structure in Texas. But it's just like

2117
01:54:21,160 --> 01:54:23,479
Speaker 1: what's happened in the country. There was a majority against

2118
01:54:23,560 --> 01:54:25,920
Speaker 1: returning Trump to the White House, but there wasn't a

2119
01:54:25,960 --> 01:54:31,679
Speaker 1: majority that wanted a liberal culture sort of leading that charge. Right.

2120
01:54:31,800 --> 01:54:34,000
Speaker 1: There wasn't a majority in favor of the Democrats being

2121
01:54:34,680 --> 01:54:36,160
Speaker 1: in charge of the White House. There was a majority

2122
01:54:36,200 --> 01:54:38,160
Speaker 1: that didn't want Donald Trump, and I think that's where

2123
01:54:38,160 --> 01:54:39,960
Speaker 1: we are in Texas right now, there's just not a

2124
01:54:40,000 --> 01:54:42,800
Speaker 1: majority ready that's ready to trust the Democratic Party. This

2125
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Speaker 1: is why the type of candidate they put up has

2126
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Speaker 1: to be somebody that is seen almost as a non

2127
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Speaker 1: traditional Democrat or somebody that isn't a stereotypical Democrat to

2128
01:54:51,080 --> 01:54:55,640
Speaker 1: the average Texas voter. All Right, with that, I've rambled

2129
01:54:55,680 --> 01:54:58,480
Speaker 1: on enough this episode. You've heard plenty of me. Hope

2130
01:54:58,480 --> 01:55:02,560
Speaker 1: you enjoyed, Larry Less. I hope it. Look, you know,

2131
01:55:02,600 --> 01:55:06,680
Speaker 1: there's there's so much partisan crap out there to appease,

2132
01:55:06,840 --> 01:55:08,440
Speaker 1: you know, to make you feel good if you're on

2133
01:55:08,480 --> 01:55:10,040
Speaker 1: the left, or feel good if you're on the right.

2134
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Speaker 1: My goal is to be the reality check and to

2135
01:55:13,600 --> 01:55:17,280
Speaker 1: be the sort of hey, if you want some of

2136
01:55:17,320 --> 01:55:20,480
Speaker 1: these things, this is what's actually broken, this is what

2137
01:55:20,640 --> 01:55:23,440
Speaker 1: actually needs fixing, This is what we should actually be

2138
01:55:23,520 --> 01:55:27,440
Speaker 1: focused on. So I hope I am delivering on what

2139
01:55:27,560 --> 01:55:29,200
Speaker 1: I am promising there. And if you don't think I am,

2140
01:55:29,320 --> 01:55:31,640
Speaker 1: shoot me a no remember, send me an email anytime

2141
01:55:31,680 --> 01:55:34,680
Speaker 1: you want. Ask Chuck at dchucktodcast dot com.

2142
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Speaker 2: Appreciate though.

2143
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Speaker 1: We've been incredible, incredible traffic growth that's been exciting. So

2144
01:55:41,120 --> 01:55:45,320
Speaker 1: I know that there is an appetite for reality based

2145
01:55:45,560 --> 01:55:48,360
Speaker 1: news and commentary in the world of politics, and I

2146
01:55:48,360 --> 01:55:50,160
Speaker 1: will continue to do my best to provide it away

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01:55:50,240 --> 01:55:51,480
Speaker 1: that until we upload again,