WEBVTT - The Netherlands Considers a Fossil Fuel Advertising Ban 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:14.800 Hey, drilled listeners, we are talking today to FUMCUS leaguers. 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:18.000 She heads up a group in the Netherlands that's working 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:21.720 to ban fossil fuel ads, and I wanted to talk 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:23.840 to her because that is an idea that has been 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.880 floated here as well, and I was curious to hear 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:30.600 if she had the same sort of reception there as 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:34.280 people have gotten here, how the media is reacting to it, 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:37.600 all of those kinds of things. One of the really 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:41.720 interesting things that she mentioned was that in the Netherlands, 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:46.360 Shell sponsors a lot of educational and science and culture 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:48.879 events and that is one of the biggest ways that 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:53.080 they advertise, especially to young kids. So they are tackling 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:57.800 that part of advertising as well, so not just media ads, 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:02.160 but also event sponsorship, which would be a huge deal 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:05.880 if people in the US picked up because the oil 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:08.720 companies very much do the same thing here. If you 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:12.800 listened to our episode on Louisiana, you would have heard 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:18.280 about Shell sponsoring JazzFest there, and BP sponsoring all kinds 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:24.600 of museum exhibits, and Chevrons sponsoring various educational and arts groups. 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:29.200 Oil companies do that kind of thing to establish what 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:33.840 they call a social license to operate. This is an 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:37.800 idea that BP first formalized in a couple of papers 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:41.319 following the Deep Water Horizon spill. It's the notion that 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:45.840 the most important thing really to fossil fuel's ability to 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:51.040 stay alive and stay profitable is a social license. In 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:56.120 other words, a license from the public to continue doing 0:01:56.200 --> 0:02:00.000 what they're doing, a sense that whatever damage they might 0:01:59.920 --> 0:02:02.600 be doing is outweighed by the good that they do. 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:05.280 We're going to get into all of that and more 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:09.000 on today's episode coming up right after this message from 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:13.600 today's sponsor. I'm Ami Westervelt and this is Drilled. 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:32.920 I was wondering you could start with having you introduce 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:33.840 yourself and. 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:37.959 Talk a bit about this fossil fuel ads ban. 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:40.600 Campaign that you're working on, kind of how it came 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:43.280 about and what you guys are trying to do. 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:47.200 All right, I'm Famcus Snakers. I'm with the Dutch brand 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:50.440 of the Worldwide Fosil Free Movement, and we want to 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:53.480 put an end to the misleading of the public and 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:57.280 the politicians by banning advertisements and marketing by the fossil 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:04.040 fuel industry. And yeah, we can paign for a tobacco 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:06.880 style ban of fossil fuel advertisements, and this band would 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:11.760 prevent greenwashing, branding, sponsoring, and it basically forbids fossil fuel 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:14.720 companies to use their logos on any other place than 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:19.079 they're direct selling points, so at the gas stations and 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:21.600 at these gas stations, we want a warning, just like 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:24.119 on a pack of cigarettes, so people can make an 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:28.640 informed choice. And we arrived at this campaign because we 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:35.240 were campaigning at child marketing and the influence of companies 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:37.120 like Shell in education. 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:43.240 That's interesting, that's really interesting. We're working on a series. 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:46.600 About Oh great, because it's so pervasive. 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:51.119 Yeah, yeah, it's really Yeah, it's really struck. Yeah, it's 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:55.240 really systematic. And it started out when there was a 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.880 child marketing festival in the Hague, the city where I 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:02.720 live and where also headquarters of Shell is and this 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:07.280 festival it's called Generation Discover, nice name, of course, and 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:10.600 it's part of the world wide Make the Future campaign 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:14.640 by Shell. But this campaign was aimed at kids from 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:19.000 six years old till thirteen year old, and of course 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:24.279 it's all about windmills and clean energy and our local 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:31.080 city council was subsidizing it from the yeah, the difucation 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:36.760 budget and yeah, so we were campaigning against that. And yeah, 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:40.960 we dove into the message of Shell. What is Shell 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:46.240 really telling us at this festival? And yeah, we discovered 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:52.719 that between all the green and shiny technolological innovation kind 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:56.000 of messages and of course they were fully aligned with 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:02.200 sustainable development goals, and we covered that they also had 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:07.279 some climate lies. And so they made a children lay 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:12.160 a puzzle about the energy mix in twenty seventeen, and 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:15.000 of course the puzzle has fixed pieces, so there was 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:19.760 no Yeah, they didn't ask kids, how do you think 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:23.160 the energy mix will look like in twenty fifty? And 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:26.159 of course twenty fifty is the year when we should 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:29.520 all be at zero emissions according to the PIRS agreement. 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:34.560 And in the puzzle that Shell made can relate it said, 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:38.159 in twenty fifty there will still be seventy percent cool 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.120 oil and gas in the energy mix. 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:41.560 Wow. 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:47.039 Yeah, yeah. And I asked an employee at festival, from 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:51.120 why are you telling these two children? You say, Shell 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:54.159 says it's aligned to Paris, and you say, at the festival, 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:57.599 you teach kids that in twenty fifty there's still seventy 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.359 percent cool oil and gas in the energy mix. And 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:03.920 then he said well, we have to be realistic and 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:06.800 we want to we don't want to lie to children 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:12.920 and yeah, so yeah, and and let's you see that. Yeah, 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:17.680 Shell wants kids too. It's really proper Conna. They are 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:22.000 really influencing kids to think in us in a way 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:26.560 and to keep yeah, oil and gas normal for for 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:29.719 decades to come. Yeah. Shell has is of course very 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:34.640 big on gas. And they had this this fuel Guests 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.080 to Liquid and they were advertising at it with the 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:41.000 festival and they said it's Guests to Liquid aligned to 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:45.880 the Sustainable Development Goal number seven for clean energy and 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.400 and of course it was also again a big lie, 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:54.080 and we thought we were fighting this lie at the 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:57.960 Ethical Board for for advertisements and we won so so 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:01.280 Shell had to to say it was sorry. But then 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:06.120 we thought, well, we are chasing each advertisement by Shell, 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:10.560 but this is really systematic and we can't. We don't 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:14.920 have the money to run after every lie that they tell. 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:18.040 And then we thought, well, how how did they do 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:22.400 it at a tobacco industry because they also went to 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:26.080 schools and told lives to kids and like Shell does 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:30.240 and Axon and all the others. And then we thought, well, 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:34.480 we need a tobacco law for the fossil fuel industry. 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:38.760 So yeah, yeah, the tobacco industry can't use their logo 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:42.520 anymore and h and the same should be for the 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:43.920 for the fossil fuel industry. 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:50.480 It's interesting that you extended to, you know, sponsoring these 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:51.600 types of events too. 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:53.280 If we did an episode. 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.200 With some folks in Louisiana recently and. 0:07:56.160 --> 0:08:00.360 They were talking about how much the oil companies sort 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:01.560 of embedded. 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:05.360 Themselves in the local institutions there, you know, and so 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:11.720 that a lot of the educational organizations and art museums 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:15.840 and community groups and whatever are sort of dependent on funding. 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:22.720 And it's probably the first thing they hear they learn 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:26.040 about climate change, and it's it's coming from philosophiel industry 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:28.480 exactly the way they think. 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:34.880 Yeah, yeah, so what like, what when did you start 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:39.080 and what has the response been so far from either 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:42.720 the oil companies or politicians or you know, what's you know, 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:43.800 how's it going so far? 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:50.280 Yeah, we started out with a citizens initiative and for 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:52.680 that we need four few thousand signatures and then we 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:57.160 can really address it at at our national government. And 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:00.400 yeah that we because of Corona, our campaign a little 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:05.000 bit changed. So so we have about five thousand signatures 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:11.240 at the moment that could be far more. And the 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:20.040 politicians it's really yeah, yeah, it's it's it's not Yeah, 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:24.880 it's really a logical thing if you ask politicians. But 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:29.800 why what's a good reason to not introduce a band 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:33.000 for fossiphal advertisements? I think they can answer it because 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:38.400 really dangerous and there yeah, there's no way to defend this. 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:43.880 But of course they are all conservative and and of 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:48.680 course there are also next year are the elections and uh, 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:53.160 and maybe the Green Party wants to join the liberals 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:58.280 and so they're a little bit hesitant to speak out. 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:01.440 Yeah, that's interesting. 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:06.160 What about have you heard anything from media outlets like 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:10.839 either TV, radio or magazine newspaper that that might have 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:13.719 some amount of their revenue attached to these ads. 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:17.240 Yeah, that's a very interesting one because we we we've 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.360 red campaigning for the city of Amsterdam to ban all 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:25.000 fossil fiel ads in the city, in the capitol and 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:28.400 and it's really hard to make a connection to the media. 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:32.120 And I think that's partly because they are funded by 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:38.920 flossi few ads and there's the the main they're the 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:43.800 most elite newspaper in the Holland like the New York Times, 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:48.960 it's it's it's running branded content for for shell a 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:53.240 lot and and yeah, and and that's really something we're 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:57.080 going to address that within the editorial board. There is 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:01.320 already they are not and seface. So there was an 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:04.880 opposition with in the in the paper that's interesting. 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:08.440 So have you looked at I know, there's the one 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:10.560 newspaper in Sweden and then the Guardian. 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:12.360 I think they're the only too so far that I 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:13.160 have done this right. 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:15.040 And they've they've I mean they've they. 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:18.439 Have really good answers for all of this stuff. The 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:23.840 thing that the Guardian woman said to us that I 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:27.520 thought was so interesting was and like makes it so easy, 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:29.439 because a lot of people have been kind of like, well, 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:31.640 you know, where does it end? 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:35.880 Do you ban car ads and you know travel ads 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.760 and you know, any kind of ad could have a 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:44.880 carbon footprint associated with their right, So her response was that, 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:46.160 you know, fossil fuel. 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:51.040 Companies are never advertising a product. They're always just advertising 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:56.520 sort of a policy position or trying to make people 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.200 think a certain way about their brands. And so it's 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:01.000 very it's very. 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:04.839 Easily distinguished from other types of advertising because they're not 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:13.760 selling anything, so anyway, Yeah, I mean, I guess, is 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:16.120 there a sense do you have any any sense at 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:20.920 all of sort of how much revenue these folks might 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.439 be getting from fossil fiel companies, because that was one 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.520 thing that when we were talking to the Guardian, folks like, 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.360 I don't think a lot of oil and gas companies 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:32.880 were advertising in the Guardian anyway. 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:38.640 Excellent, excellent, was though, Yeah that's true. Yeah, but they 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:41.680 but they did, they said they it represented I think 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:44.480 like one percent of their of their ad revenue, which 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.480 you know, especially right now, is a lot. So anyway, 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.280 but I'm curious if like you have any sense of 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:54.840 of how much they might be spending on particularly. 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:59.320 Media bias not yet, not yet, do you. 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:03.080 Think it might be impacting how the media is even 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:04.959 covering your campaign? 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:10.320 Yeah, we can't say that for sure, but yeah, and 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:17.040 because yeah, we went live during Corona Sol, so it's. 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.720 It's hard to tell. Yeah, Okay, And then I know 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:26.280 you emailed me initially because you had noticed shortly after 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:30.160 you launched that a shadowy figure was visiting your website. 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:34.160 Can you say a little bit about that, Yeah, yeah. 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:37.120 Yeah, yeah, we just launched our websites like two weeks 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:39.520 and I was checking if if if there was already 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:44.400 incoming traffic and and I saw, Yeah, amongst the familiar names, 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:46.840 I saw a name I didn't know, and it was 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:51.319 sick Watch, And I ran a quick Google search and 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:56.199 found that this company monitors and gos and grassroots activism 0:13:56.240 --> 0:14:00.600 against multinationals. And then it's like big agro bit, big food, 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:05.240 big oil, and big tobacco, and they also teach multinationals 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:09.560 how to mute activism. So I dove somewhat deeper and 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:13.200 I discovered sick, which was founded in the nineties. And 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:16.360 for me, yeah, that was reason for mald suspicion, as 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:24.240 in the nineties all kind of denihilism sprang and was flourishing. Yeah, 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:26.920 I found that the founder of sick which was Road Blood, 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:30.440 and then I ran a search on Robert Blood and 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:35.000 I discovered this a guy named Robert Blood helped casting 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:39.960 doubt about the health hazards of smoking for British America tobacco, 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:44.560 and he even linked opposition to tobacco regulation to opposition 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:47.840 on environmental issues. And it was suggesting that the best 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:52.880 way to counteractivism is showing understanding and using fair words 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:57.920 and taking very small actions refer to that. 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:03.240 I get a that they are The fossil fuel industry 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:07.240 in general is getting quite worried about its social license 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:08.120 being eroded. 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:11.600 Have you guys connected with groups elsewhere in the world 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:16.000 that are looking at a similar kind of approach. 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:21.760 No, we know that that in the UK there's a 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:26.800 group and and they're trying. Yeah, they have a different approach. 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:30.080 They say, well, all all greenwashing should have a warning 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:33.200 on it, and if they don't, then well we need 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:37.760 a ban. You think a warning of also feel ads 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:41.400 is not enough because the misleading can still go on. 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:42.360 Yea. 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:49.960 And in Norway there was an editorial letter from the 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:54.480 Climate Youth and they also were pleading for a band. 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:57.120 But I don't know if if a campaign is attached 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:59.880 to it, if if if there are any other initiatives, 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:04.360 because I think the timing is just right, And yeah, 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:07.760 we really must step up, and yeah, we don't have 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:10.840 time for nudging every consumer to make the right choice. 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:14.240 And we can't expect children and adults to be aware 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:16.600 of misleading ads all the time, and we don't have 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:19.440 to chase every ad, so so yeah, we must be open. 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:25.520 We must open the conversation to strict legal regulation. Yeah, 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.960 but I think it's still a taboo because we always 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:34.160 solve things with nudging and with self regulation. But it's 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:36.520 not enough in the right of climate change. 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:38.400 Are you making any kind. 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:42.520 Of inroads with politicians that might take this up or 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.720 or even like sort of you know, legal organizations or 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.680 civil society groups or anything like that that might you know, 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:52.280 take this up and turn it into legislation. 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:54.640 Yes, we are. 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:55.240 We are. 0:16:56.720 --> 0:17:00.560 Planning to make our own tobacco style law. So so 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.000 we will make a proposal. We are already talking with 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:08.800 lawyers about it, and we will present this this uh yeah, 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:13.800 this law to the politicians and perhaps some who favored this, 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:18.360 so they will propose it in parliament. And we already 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:22.400 ran a test with the tobacco law and it's just yeah, 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:26.760 the tobacco law that advanced uh tobacco advertisement. And it's 0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:30.200 it's really easy to convert it to the fossil fuel industry. 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:34.200 So so it's like one of one. So it's also 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:39.520 a concept that many countries can uh can do. Yeah, 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:42.800 many countries will plead for it for such a law. 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.800 H h. 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:53.240 H h h m. 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:59.359 Okay, that's it for this time. Thanks so much for 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:03.680 tuning in again. 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It goes directly into more reporting 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:23.480 more production work, really just producing more stories and getting 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:26.080 them out to more people. That's it for this time. 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.119 We will, seriously, for real this time, be taking a 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.320 little bit of a break until the next big season 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:35.040 comes out. You might get occasional bonus updates in between 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:37.520 now and then, but otherwise we will see you in 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:47.000 a few weeks. Thanks again for listening.