Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey there, it's Maya. If you listen to the show,
Speaker 1: you know that I'm fascinated by how people respond when
Speaker 1: life doesn't go according to plan. My new book with
Speaker 1: Penguin Random House, The Other Side of Change, comes out
Speaker 1: January thirteenth, and it grew out of the same questions
Speaker 1: we explore on this podcast. What do we hold on
Speaker 1: to when life shifts, what do we let go of?
Speaker 1: And how do we find meaning on the other side.
Speaker 1: The Other Side of Change blends all new stories you
Speaker 1: haven't heard on the podcast with new scientific insights on resilience.
Speaker 1: My hope is that it gives you the tools you
Speaker 1: need to navigate your own moments of disruption with a
Speaker 1: great ter sense of possibility about who you can become
Speaker 1: on the Other Side of Change. You can learn more
Speaker 1: and pre order now at the link in the show
Speaker 1: notes or at Changewithmaya dot com slash book. That's changed
Speaker 1: with Maya dot com slash book And if you'd like
Speaker 1: to get more involved, I just launch an Ambassador's program,
Speaker 1: which will give you exclusive content, free perks, and invitation
Speaker 1: to a conversation with me and behind the scenes updates.
Speaker 1: You can join this new community at changewithmaya dot com
Speaker 1: slash join. I can't wait to share this book with you.
Speaker 1: Okay now, onto Meg Josephson.
Speaker 2: If you're upset with me, I can't feel okay until
Speaker 2: we're good again, Like I need to know that you're
Speaker 2: not upset with me before I can breathe again, because
Speaker 2: it's just so all consuming.
Speaker 1: That's Meg Josephson. She's a therapist and author of the
Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller Are You Mad at Me? How
Speaker 1: to stop focusing on what others think and start living
Speaker 1: for you. Meg says that when we're constantly focused on
Speaker 1: how others feel, we can abandon ourselves.
Speaker 2: It leads us to feeling like I don't know who
Speaker 2: I am. I don't know what my preferences are. I
Speaker 2: don't know what my interests are. What do I even
Speaker 2: think of this? What do I feel? Because we've been
Speaker 2: trained to be hypertuned to what everyone else wants and
Speaker 2: thinks and feels and needs.
Speaker 1: On today's show, who are We when we're not trying
Speaker 1: to please other people? I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who
Speaker 1: studies human behavior, and this is a slight change of plans,
Speaker 1: A show about who we are and who we become
Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. How often do
Speaker 1: you wonder if someone's mad at you? I do it
Speaker 1: all the time. I'm just this constant, low level worry
Speaker 1: that I may have upset someone without realizing it. So
Speaker 1: when I saw Meg's book, Are You Mad At Me?
Speaker 1: I felt like it was written for me. I used
Speaker 1: to think of people pleasing as pretty harmless. I mean,
Speaker 1: what's the worst thing that can happen? I'm overly nice
Speaker 1: and accommodating to someone. The Meg helped me see how,
Speaker 1: over time, constantly trying to please others can really erode
Speaker 1: our sense of self and even threaten the very relationships
Speaker 1: we're trying to protect. The good news, since we learned
Speaker 1: some of these patterns over time, we can also unlearn them.
Speaker 1: For Meg, people pleasing began in childhood. It was a
Speaker 1: way for her to stay safe in a home that
Speaker 1: didn't feel emotionally stable.
Speaker 2: I think as children, we grow up kind of wanting
Speaker 2: it to be black or white. It was all good
Speaker 2: or it was all bad, or it was loving or
Speaker 2: it wasn't loving. And there were loving moments, but they're
Speaker 2: also really painful ones as well, And so I think
Speaker 2: Honoring that complexity has been really important to me, just
Speaker 2: allowing there to be both. My dad struggled with addiction
Speaker 2: in my childhood and with that had a lot of rage.
Speaker 2: Things could just change very quickly. It kind of felt
Speaker 2: like a held breath in my home. The smallest things
Speaker 2: could set him off, if, like we're driving, I'm in
Speaker 2: the front seat with him, someone cuts him off like
Speaker 2: that would send him into a blind rage. But also
Speaker 2: just small things at home, like I would spill something
Speaker 2: by accident, or my mom would make a mistake or
Speaker 2: forget where her keys were, and just these tiny things
Speaker 2: that didn't feel like a big deal, but they became
Speaker 2: a really big deal.
Speaker 1: I loved the complexity and nuance that you capture around
Speaker 1: your relationship with your dad. You write in your book
Speaker 1: that you had lots of loving, tender moments with your dad,
Speaker 1: and you share it a lot in common, right, You
Speaker 1: saw many parts of yourself on him, like your creative
Speaker 1: side and what have you. And so tell me a
Speaker 1: bit more about that part of the relationship with your dad.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, he was my best friend growing up. He was
Speaker 2: so creative and very entrepreneurial in spirit, really silly. We
Speaker 2: would just make each other laugh like such a quirky,
Speaker 2: funny personality. Everyone would always tell us, Oh, you guys
Speaker 2: are so similar. You guys are so similar in terms
Speaker 2: of personality, And so we had a lot of fun moments.
Speaker 2: But even as a child, I remember wishing that he
Speaker 2: was all mean and all scary, because I remember thinking,
Speaker 2: even that young, he's two people. He's my best friend,
Speaker 2: and then he's the person who scares me more than anyone.
Speaker 2: And I just wanted to kind of a side how
Speaker 2: I felt it would just be easier. But life is
Speaker 2: never so easy and simple. Yeah, but you're so.
Speaker 1: Right, and I so resonate with especially as a young kid,
Speaker 1: wanting to carve the world into the black and white
Speaker 1: spaces and to make clear delineations between good and bad.
Speaker 1: As you were navigating this very complex environment where there
Speaker 1: was a lot of emotional volatility, how did you find
Speaker 1: yourself responding to that.
Speaker 2: I was just always watching him. I was always eyes
Speaker 2: were always on him. Let him set the tone, let
Speaker 2: him decide what this moment's going to be like. He
Speaker 2: had the power and control to dictate how the room felt.
Speaker 2: And if he's happy, then I can exhale and be
Speaker 2: happy too, And if he's in a bad mood, I
Speaker 2: will just course correct and act accordingly. But I blamed
Speaker 2: myself for it, or I thought that it was my fault.
Speaker 2: And for a child, it's like, what's the one thing
Speaker 2: in my control? I'll never mess up, I'll never make
Speaker 2: mistakes because if I'm perfect, there's nothing to criticize. It's
Speaker 2: a preventative measure to take. I think my coping was
Speaker 2: immediately correcting of like, are you mad at me? Am
Speaker 2: I in trouble? Did I do something wrong? What can
Speaker 2: I do? How can my actions appease you and soothe you?
Speaker 2: And obviously this isn't a conscious thing that I'm thinking
Speaker 2: about as a child, but it was just I think,
Speaker 2: immediately course correcting so that I would be approved of
Speaker 2: once again.
Speaker 1: FIRSTP I so relate to this question are you mad
Speaker 1: at me? I mean, I think maybe I've asked myself
Speaker 1: that an infinite number of times Meg in my life.
Speaker 2: You're not alone.
Speaker 1: What was it about someone being mad at you that
Speaker 1: carried so much power in young Meg's mind? Why was
Speaker 1: it so significant to you?
Speaker 2: I felt this my whole life, with friends, with teachers,
Speaker 2: with my dad. If you're upset with me, I can't
Speaker 2: feel okay until we're good again, Like I need to
Speaker 2: know that you're not upset with me before I can
Speaker 2: breathe again, because it's just so all consuming. He would yell,
Speaker 2: or he would say really hurtful things or call me
Speaker 2: something that was really hurtful, and there was no repair
Speaker 2: after the fact. There was no hey, I'm so sorry
Speaker 2: that that happened, and let's talk about it. It was
Speaker 2: just I'd go downstairs and it's like, so, what about
Speaker 2: for dinner? Or it's just awkward, and no one's acknowledging
Speaker 2: what just happened. What ends up happening When we don't
Speaker 2: receive that acknowledgment accountability repair, well, two things happened, we
Speaker 2: start to blame ourselves. It goes from I did something
Speaker 2: bad to make dad upset, and when that happens every
Speaker 2: day or weekly or just frequently, I did something bad
Speaker 2: to I am bad, and it cultivates this feeling of
Speaker 2: something's wrong with me, I'm always in trouble, I'm secretly bad,
Speaker 2: and it's just a matter of time before everyone finds out.
Speaker 2: But then, also as adults, because we didn't witness that
Speaker 2: coming back together after a conflict, we end up believing
Speaker 2: when there's conflict, i e. When someone's mad at me,
Speaker 2: the relationship's over, it's ruined. I will be abandoned. It's
Speaker 2: so personal, it's a rejection of who I am. And
Speaker 2: if being perfect and being good or being funny is
Speaker 2: like a way to prevent that from happening, why wouldn't
Speaker 2: we do that? And that's why I talk about people
Speaker 2: pleasing as such a brilliant safety mechanism, because it's how
Speaker 2: brilliant that as children we know how to do that,
Speaker 2: and that we know to do it in the first place.
Speaker 1: You talk in the book about how people pleasing can
Speaker 1: be called a fond response for listeners who are not familiar.
Speaker 1: Tell me more about what a fawn response is.
Speaker 2: Yes, our body has what we know for responses to
Speaker 2: a threat, fight or flight, which I think a lot
Speaker 2: of us know freeze, and the fourth one is the
Speaker 2: fawn response. What it means is when there is a threat,
Speaker 2: whether that threat is real or perceived. So there's a
Speaker 2: line in front of us, or our boss is being
Speaker 2: a little cold or stand offish, and we're like, are
Speaker 2: you madam, don't just me wrong? We appease the threat.
Speaker 2: We try to be liked by it, we try to
Speaker 2: impress it, satisfy it, diffuse conflict so that we can
Speaker 2: go back to feeling safe. Sometimes we need to do this,
Speaker 2: whether it's in childhood, whether it's to survive in the
Speaker 2: oppressive systems that we're living within, whether it's to get
Speaker 2: a paycheck. Sometimes we need to. It's not to say
Speaker 2: we don't ever need this, but, like I was speaking
Speaker 2: too earlier, if we're doing it all the time, if
Speaker 2: we're doing it with our best friend when we don't
Speaker 2: need to be, if we're doing it with a loving partner,
Speaker 2: that's when it takes a toll body and becomes exhausting
Speaker 2: and leads to burnout and resentment in our relationships, anxiety,
Speaker 2: overthinking overall.
Speaker 1: Can people think of it as just trying to do
Speaker 1: or say whatever you feel will appease the other person?
Speaker 1: How should I think about that?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I think if it as an external piece and an
Speaker 2: internal piece, the external being not setting boundaries, avoiding conflict
Speaker 2: at all costs, saying yes when you want to say no,
Speaker 2: contorting your opinions to match whoever you're with because you
Speaker 2: just want to be liked by them or you don't
Speaker 2: want them thinking you disagree silencing your needs, shoving your
Speaker 2: feelings down. But then I also think there is an
Speaker 2: internal element that's more secret and more private, which is
Speaker 2: I find safety in pleasing you, and I find safety
Speaker 2: in doing more and being liked. And in order to
Speaker 2: do that, we have to abandon ourselves. In order for
Speaker 2: us to be hypertuned to the person's facial reactions and
Speaker 2: body language, we have to leave ourselves to successfully do that.
Speaker 2: And so internally what ends up happening a lot. And
Speaker 2: this is more something that I always felt kind of
Speaker 2: weird in, but then when I became a therapist, I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, other people feel this too, and so
Speaker 2: that was a really illuminating experience for me. This overthinking
Speaker 2: social reactions. Did I say the wrong thing? I can't
Speaker 2: believe I did my joke not land, What did they
Speaker 2: think of this? Should I apologize for this? Feeling like
Speaker 2: we're always about to get in trouble, like we're bad,
Speaker 2: wondering how are you mad at me? In our relationships,
Speaker 2: replaying things again and again with the fun response, we
Speaker 2: often feel like we can only show people the best,
Speaker 2: most perfect version of ourselves, and so we feel like
Speaker 2: we're often performing in our relationships, and that can feel
Speaker 2: quite lonely. It can feel like am I fake?
Speaker 1: Am I?
Speaker 2: People don't really know me? I'm always keeping people at
Speaker 2: a day stints, And it also leads us to feeling
Speaker 2: like I don't know who I am. I don't know
Speaker 2: what my preferences are. I don't know what my interests are.
Speaker 2: What do I even think of this? What do I feel?
Speaker 2: Because we've been trained to be hyper attuned to what
Speaker 2: everyone else wants and thinks and feels and needs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm reflecting in this moment about how when I
Speaker 1: was a little kid, I was bullied a lot, and
Speaker 1: I absolutely engage in those interactions with a fund response.
Speaker 1: I internalized the cruelty as evidence that I was broken
Speaker 1: in some really deep way, and I remember thinking, well,
Speaker 1: I'm just going to kill them with kindness, Like if
Speaker 1: I'm just like extra nice to the mean girls, maybe
Speaker 1: one day they'll like me. And I think you were
Speaker 1: talking about losing yourself. I mean I when I reflect
Speaker 1: back on the way I would interact with some of
Speaker 1: my classmates, some of these girls in my neighborhood, there's
Speaker 1: such a loss of self respect and dignity. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: I didn't even care in those moments about any kind
Speaker 1: of pride or self respect. I was like, I will
Speaker 1: do anything just to get these kids to like me back,
Speaker 1: or to just stop being mean. And the last thought
Speaker 1: on my mind was what does this do to my
Speaker 1: sense of self?
Speaker 2: Well, of course, and that makes so much sense. And
Speaker 2: the fawn response is really common with bullying, it's really
Speaker 2: common with abuse. And of course you're not, especially as
Speaker 2: a child, you're not thinking about, well, what do I deserve?
Speaker 2: Do I even like them? Of course you're not thinking
Speaker 2: about that A because you're detecting a threat. Yes, And
Speaker 2: there's no time to pause. When we are feeling in danger.
Speaker 2: You're just going to appease. And if you were to fight,
Speaker 2: flight or freeze at school, you'd probably get in trouble. Right.
Speaker 2: It's the only threat response that we're not punished for,
Speaker 2: which definitely reinforces the need to fawn in the first place.
Speaker 2: But also, as children, our sense of belonging and safety
Speaker 2: at school and at home is our entire world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've written about different fond types. Can you walk
Speaker 1: us through some of those?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have six archetypes, and so you might resonate
Speaker 2: with all of them. You might see yourself more in
Speaker 2: a few of them, but it's really just to illuminate, Oh,
Speaker 2: this is how I have protected myself so that we
Speaker 2: can understand it and begin to shed that identity in
Speaker 2: many ways. So I have the peacekeeper, which definitely finds
Speaker 2: the most safety in creating a harmonious environment and harmonious relationships,
Speaker 2: whether that's being super hyper vigilant of what people are
Speaker 2: feeling and needing, maybe it's killing them with kindness and
Speaker 2: just harmony is the most important thing to a peacekeeper,
Speaker 2: and those beliefs sort of manifest as other people's happiness
Speaker 2: is my responsibility. I'm in charge of managing people's moods.
Speaker 2: When someone's in a bad mood, it's my fault and
Speaker 2: it's my responsibility to fix it. The performer is I
Speaker 2: have this vignette of little boy who grew up with
Speaker 2: really depressed parents, and he would find safety in just
Speaker 2: being the really funny clown performing type and his job
Speaker 2: was to make sure that everyone was happy. And so
Speaker 2: as an adult, what that manifests as is I need
Speaker 2: to always kind of be on I can't slip, but
Speaker 2: also feeling like, oh my gosh, no one really knows
Speaker 2: me because I'm only showing them this on version, I'm
Speaker 2: only showing them this masking that happens. And then the caretaker,
Speaker 2: which is fulfilling the parent role in some way, whether
Speaker 2: that was you had a sibling who had a disability
Speaker 2: or mental health issues or a parent who had those
Speaker 2: struggles and you had to fulfill the parent role, whether
Speaker 2: it was emotional, whether it was physically caretaking in some way,
Speaker 2: whether your first generation of immigrant parents and you're going
Speaker 2: with them to appointments as a child to help them translate.
Speaker 2: You're taking on this parental role. The caretaker might be
Speaker 2: drawn to people as adults who they kind of need
Speaker 2: to mother or parent their partner in some way. Their
Speaker 2: value is in being helpful and fixing and saving people.
Speaker 1: So you just describe Meg peacekeeper, performer, and caretaker. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I resonate most closely with peacekeeper. I will
Speaker 1: insert myself into conversations that don't even involve me to
Speaker 1: try to facilitate peace. If there is a lack of
Speaker 1: peace between me and someone else, that's the sort of
Speaker 1: thing that will keep me up at night and prevent
Speaker 1: me from sleeping. Well, there's this urgency in my mind
Speaker 1: that has to be resolved as quickly as possible. Which
Speaker 1: ones of those three do you most identify with.
Speaker 2: Everything you just said, every single piece I resonate with
Speaker 2: so much. And what's so important to know and to
Speaker 2: understand is number one. As an adult, when that's happening,
Speaker 2: your body's remembering when you needed to do that, Like
Speaker 2: your body is returning to that time in life when
Speaker 2: there were major consequences if there wasn't peace, if you
Speaker 2: weren't playing that role. So that younger version of you
Speaker 2: that's trying to protect you and keep you safe is
Speaker 2: still within you. Is Oh, time to wake up, time
Speaker 2: to work hard and fix this situation. And when we
Speaker 2: are in this state of survival mode in the fun response,
Speaker 2: it is urgent, like if we were in danger, Urgency
Speaker 2: is survival mode and slowness is safety. And so if
Speaker 2: we are detecting some sort of threat and we're reacting
Speaker 2: very urgently, this has to be addressed immediately. It's such
Speaker 2: a sign that there is some dysregulation happening. Our body
Speaker 2: is entering into a state of sval mode. That's why
Speaker 2: it's so incredible our awareness when we can be aware
Speaker 2: of this as it's happening and slow ourselves down with
Speaker 2: our breath, with any grounding technique that feels soothing to ourselves.
Speaker 2: We're communicating to our bodies that we're safe, because if
Speaker 2: we were actually in danger, there wouldn't be time to
Speaker 2: take three breaths before responding to the text.
Speaker 1: Isn't it crazy how all consuming the are you mad
Speaker 1: at me? Refrain can be for people that really don't
Speaker 1: matter to us. I mean, I just have to put
Speaker 1: that out there. It drives me crazy, Meg, because the
Speaker 1: concern that someone's mad at me will completely hijack my brain.
Speaker 1: I will come to feel that that person is the
Speaker 1: most important person in the world, and then I'll reflect
Speaker 1: on it for a moment and be like, what are
Speaker 1: you doing? Get a grip. It's misallocating importance to relationships
Speaker 1: that truly should not matter. Because the fear of not
Speaker 1: being liked or approved of is such a threat.
Speaker 2: You're speaking to it perfectly. Because threats are black or white.
Speaker 2: When we're in survival mode, we're safe or we're not.
Speaker 2: It's good or it's bad. We're in danger or we're not.
Speaker 2: It is all or nothing, and so when we're in
Speaker 2: survival mode, there's no room for nuance. There's no room
Speaker 2: for how much do I value this relationship? Is it
Speaker 2: actually okay if this person perceives me in a way
Speaker 2: that I don't agree with, knowing that we cannot take
Speaker 2: in that much information, If we were taking in everyone's
Speaker 2: feedback to us, we would be a million people because
Speaker 2: everyone's going to have a different take. But actually, reflecting
Speaker 2: on I'm working so hard to gain this person's approval.
Speaker 2: Is this someone I look up to? Is this someone
Speaker 2: that I really want to embody the qualities that they have?
Speaker 1: And is this person someone who's even treated me well?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's been the most devastating part.
Speaker 1: I'm just reflecting on an incident earlier this year where
Speaker 1: I was just viving sort of the contours of this
Speaker 1: relationship that again shouldn't matter. I was talking about it
Speaker 1: with my husband, and my husband was like, Maya, this
Speaker 1: person has not treated you well. Yeah, like he could
Speaker 1: see it so clearly. This person was actually out of
Speaker 1: line in terms of the way they engage with you
Speaker 1: and the lack of respect they showed you. And yet
Speaker 1: you're willing to throw your self respect out the door
Speaker 1: just to get them to like you back. And it
Speaker 1: was a meaningful moment for me because I just hadn't
Speaker 1: heard someone say so clearly to me, you should respect
Speaker 1: yourself more than this.
Speaker 2: You're really speaking to the heart of the faun response,
Speaker 2: which is kind of like befriending our bullies and leaning
Speaker 2: into people that feel threatening. That's really what the faun
Speaker 2: response is. It's going further into people that are unavailable
Speaker 2: or critical. That feels, first of ball, like home in
Speaker 2: some way. Okay, I need to work hard for me
Speaker 2: to be loved. Yes, familiar feel safe to us. And
Speaker 2: so even if it's a relationship, if you're like trying
Speaker 2: to befriend someone who's not nice to you, that familiarity
Speaker 2: feels comforting. Even if intellectually we know it's not a
Speaker 2: good relationship for us, if it's what we've known in
Speaker 2: our parental relationships or a past romantic relationship, there's some
Speaker 2: piece that feel safe because it's what we know, and
Speaker 2: so it reminds us of this original hurtful relationship, and
Speaker 2: there's a part of us that believes, if I can
Speaker 2: just fix this, if I can be enough for this
Speaker 2: person that's not nice to me, then it'll fix and
Speaker 2: heal this core hurtful relationship we were re enacting the
Speaker 2: wound so that we can finally fix it. And of
Speaker 2: course we're never going to be good enough for the
Speaker 2: people that aren't right for us. Yeah, yeah, exactly, But
Speaker 2: that's the faun response, is leaning in to a threat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love what you just said, and I love
Speaker 1: to hear about the three other types of fun responses. Yes,
Speaker 1: so we've got perfectionist, chameleon and lone wolf, and I
Speaker 1: can already say chameleon is my jam Oh? Yeah, do
Speaker 1: I have a personality or do I just be no
Speaker 1: what other people want me to be?
Speaker 2: In that moment, you are not alone. The chameleon really
Speaker 2: morphs themselves to fit in with whoever they're with, And
Speaker 2: I think that's really we have to in many ways,
Speaker 2: like how you are with your boss will be different
Speaker 2: from with your best friend. But the chameleon is doing
Speaker 2: this in all of their relationships, feeling like I don't
Speaker 2: know who I am? And I write about this myself personally,
Speaker 2: of like graduating college and I remember wondering, am I
Speaker 2: just a medley of other people's personalities?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: Am I just? Who am I? Who am I? When
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to please other people? Perfectionist I find
Speaker 2: safety in being perfect. I need to be perfect in
Speaker 2: order to be loved, and the perfectionist often fine and
Speaker 2: safety through achievement through external validation. People viewing you as
Speaker 2: perfect doesn't matter if you know you're not. As long
Speaker 2: as other people think you're perfect, we're good. That's really
Speaker 2: the heart of the perfectionist. And then the lone wolf
Speaker 2: is the last archetype. The lone wolf silences their needs
Speaker 2: by disappearing and isolating and pulling away because my needs
Speaker 2: are so meaningless that I'm just going to be so
Speaker 2: easy and not inconvenient to you, So that lone wolf
Speaker 2: craves deep connection but would rather be alone than be
Speaker 2: disappointed or let down.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad we talked about lone wolf, because I
Speaker 1: think I have misperceived the internal state of someone who's
Speaker 1: expressed this sort of lone wolf fawn response, and I've
Speaker 1: mistaken it for apathy for not caring about the relationship
Speaker 1: with me. I think you're helping to build my empathy,
Speaker 1: which is sometimes when someone retreats or doesn't want to engage,
Speaker 1: it's actually not because they don't care. They just don't
Speaker 1: think they're worthy enough to actively engage with the repair required, Yes, yes.
Speaker 2: And maybe that lone wolf feels a little bit of
Speaker 2: those perfectionistic tendencies of I can't be seen in my messiness,
Speaker 2: I can't be seen needing help, And so often that
Speaker 2: lone wolf has asked for help and has been let down,
Speaker 2: And so it's so much safer than to have no
Speaker 2: needs than to be let down again. Yeah.
Speaker 1: As you've mentioned, fawning is an adaptive human trait. There
Speaker 1: are environments in which it is actually necessary to engage
Speaker 1: in a fawn response in order to survive, or to
Speaker 1: maintain your job, or to help make peace with a relative.
Speaker 1: But what are the harmful effects when fawning has gone
Speaker 1: too far? When it becomes to define our response in
Speaker 1: terms of both our individual well being and then the
Speaker 1: impact on our relationships.
Speaker 2: For our our relationships, when we are constantly avoiding conflict,
Speaker 2: when we are constantly avoiding uncomfortable conversations or disappearing in
Speaker 2: the other persons we don't disagree with them, or so
Speaker 2: they don't think we disagree with them, it can keep
Speaker 2: our relationships at quite a distance.
Speaker 1: Or, by the way, Meg, when we're smothering them, oh,
Speaker 1: because we're desperate for resolution. Both I'm speaking on behalf
Speaker 1: of a friend here, don't mind me.
Speaker 2: Yeah hypothetically, of course, this is super hypothetical. So there's
Speaker 2: two extreme sort of reassurance seeking. Constantly are you mad
Speaker 2: at me? We're scraping over kind of the content of
Speaker 2: life and we're not really getting to the emotion beneath it.
Speaker 2: It can put quite a strain on our relationships to
Speaker 2: be on the receiving end of that, because reassurance seeking
Speaker 2: is quite addictive. It's like, no, I'm not mad at you. Oh, few, okay,
Speaker 2: we're good, And then because that emotion wasn't addressed, it
Speaker 2: slowly comes back and then we maybe we ask for
Speaker 2: rasure again because it feels good to be told no,
Speaker 2: I'm not. But when the other person starts to get
Speaker 2: annoyed at that, then maybe they start getting irritable, and
Speaker 2: then it triggers that part even more. Oh gosh, they're
Speaker 2: mad at me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, ironically, you might actually make them mad with all
Speaker 1: the pestering about whether they're mad at you exactly.
Speaker 2: So it can push people away, which triggers us to
Speaker 2: lean in more, and it becomes this cycle of that.
Speaker 2: And then the other cycle that happens is if we
Speaker 2: are avoiding conflict. So maybe someone is saying there's some
Speaker 2: resentment in the relationship. You've been silencing your needs. Maybe
Speaker 2: you've just been giving a lot in a friendship and
Speaker 2: it hasn't been feeling reciprocal, and so you're starting to
Speaker 2: feel resentful. You're feeling like your needs aren't being met,
Speaker 2: but you don't want to bring it up because then
Speaker 2: you have a conversation about it and that feels way
Speaker 2: too scary. What ends up happening is, ironically, to keep
Speaker 2: the peace, we end up creating war within ourselves and
Speaker 2: keeping people at a distance because we're not letting people
Speaker 2: in on what we need, and so in order to
Speaker 2: keep the p short term, we prioritize avoiding discomfort. What
Speaker 2: ends up happening is that resentment festers and it builds,
Speaker 2: and so we end up long term, actually creating a
Speaker 2: lot more suffering in that relationship because we're so resentful
Speaker 2: and we're so annoyed, and we're fake having fake arguments
Speaker 2: in the shower with this person because we just won't
Speaker 2: tell them how we're feeling. On the flip side, when
Speaker 2: we're able to have honest conversations with safe, healthy relationships
Speaker 2: in our lives, we actually are showing them. This is
Speaker 2: how I can be in relationship to you long term.
Speaker 2: I'm letting you in on what I need and what
Speaker 2: I'm feeling. And that is such a form of emotional
Speaker 2: intimacy because it means that I trust you. It means
Speaker 2: that I'm showing you the messy parts of me so
Speaker 2: that we can be in a relationship forever. An emphasis
Speaker 2: on safe, healthy relationships because you might be the thinking, well, hello,
Speaker 2: I cannot have an honest conversation with my volatile parent
Speaker 2: or this friend that I'm thinking of. And so that's
Speaker 2: why I always like to say with being honest, with
Speaker 2: letting people in on healing the fun response in our relationships,
Speaker 2: we're either going to have more closeness or we're going
Speaker 2: to have more clarity. If we can't have closeness with
Speaker 2: the other person because they're defensive, they don't want to
Speaker 2: listen to you, you're going to have clarity about what
Speaker 2: you can expect from them. You're going to have clarity
Speaker 2: and maybe on what you need to grieve in the
Speaker 2: relationship in order to move forward. And either way there's
Speaker 2: something to gain there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I mean another downside, irrespective of what
Speaker 1: kind of fun response you have is that in all cases,
Speaker 1: some significant fraction of your perception of your self worth
Speaker 1: and your value in that moment hinges upon another person
Speaker 1: and their approval of you. And that's a very precarious
Speaker 1: position to put ourselves in routinely.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we spend so much energy trying to control what
Speaker 2: people are thinking about us, but it was never in
Speaker 2: our control in the first place. But recognizing we're all
Speaker 2: seeing the world through the lens of our own inner world,
Speaker 2: which is made up of our fears and beliefs and insecurities,
Speaker 2: and no matter how perfect we are, we're still going
Speaker 2: to be perceived through the lens of their inner world,
Speaker 2: which is not in our control. And that's super uncomfortable
Speaker 2: truth to grapple with and is much easier talked about
Speaker 2: than integrate it.
Speaker 1: After the break, Meg and I discuss how to tame
Speaker 1: our inner people. Pleaser, We'll be back in a moment
Speaker 1: with a slight change of plans. You know you had
Speaker 1: spent so much of your life in gaging in the
Speaker 1: fond response. When did you realize that you needed to
Speaker 1: revisit this part of yourself because it was bad for you?
Speaker 2: Hm? While I was in college. I think that was
Speaker 2: a turning point in recognizing, Okay, I'm no longer living
Speaker 2: in this environment where being so hypervigilant is necessary. Of course,
Speaker 2: I was still in relationship to my parents, but my
Speaker 2: environment was different. It was in this time of my
Speaker 2: life where I feel like I started to see that
Speaker 2: voice in my head that was so rooted in anxiety
Speaker 2: and fearful, catastrophic thinking, blaming myself and being self critical.
Speaker 2: And once I was no longer in the environment where
Speaker 2: it was so necessary, my baseline was just so unlivable
Speaker 2: that that for me was the turning point. It's interesting
Speaker 2: because I met my husband young. We were nineteen when
Speaker 2: we met, we were in college, and we've been together
Speaker 2: ever since. He's a good example of him challenging that
Speaker 2: belief where he is so steady, he is unconditional on
Speaker 2: his love. He feels so safe, like just true safety
Speaker 2: as a person, and meeting him so young confused me.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't deserve this. I need to fix
Speaker 2: myself first in order to be worthy of this.
Speaker 3: But I.
Speaker 2: Felt sort of split in two, like my intuitive voice
Speaker 2: was saying, yes, this is right, this feels safe, but
Speaker 2: then my wounded voice was like, this isn't what I know.
Speaker 2: Like I remember having these thoughts of like, just wait,
Speaker 2: he's going to flip. He's going to be someone that
Speaker 2: you can't expect. Or he'll come home drunk one night
Speaker 2: and something horrible will happen and the.
Speaker 1: Shoe will drop.
Speaker 2: The shoe will drop exactly. And so I think that's
Speaker 2: kind of a flipped example of like someone who felt
Speaker 2: really safe and that felt really confusing to me. And
Speaker 2: even still, I sometimes get pulled into friendships where they're
Speaker 2: pulling back or they're hard to please, and so I
Speaker 2: find myself having this pull toward them. I'll catch it,
Speaker 2: and the prompt I usually like to guide myself there
Speaker 2: is like what draws me to this person? Do I
Speaker 2: lean in more the more they pull back? Yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: that's probably a sign I'm reacting from a past, wounded place.
Speaker 2: Having awareness of these patterns is everything. We're still going
Speaker 2: to have these reactions, yeah, but when we can be
Speaker 2: aware of them and insert a pause and be curious
Speaker 2: about it, what's happening here, that's the healing. So we're
Speaker 2: not expecting ourselves to never be drawn to these relationships again,
Speaker 2: but to be conscious of when we are.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I find that this plays out a lot in
Speaker 1: my professional life. When it comes to you and a
Speaker 1: manager or some leader, there is an inbuilt power dynamic
Speaker 1: and it is their job actually to be critical and
Speaker 1: to have tough conversations with you, and to maybe be
Speaker 1: a bit unavailable because you don't have that kind of
Speaker 1: emotional closeness that you might with a friend or a
Speaker 1: family member. So there's one story from your book that
Speaker 1: I was just like cheering out loud because I was like, yes, nag, preach.
Speaker 1: Were you talked about an interaction that you'd had with
Speaker 1: your boss over slack and it was so relatable.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I could have written an entire chapter
Speaker 2: about this topic of boss mirroring caregiver attachment. But I
Speaker 2: remember it was my first job out of college, and
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm terrified of authority. I'm so scared of
Speaker 2: getting in trouble and getting a message from my boss
Speaker 2: saying can we chat or do you have a second
Speaker 2: whatever they said, and just this immediate sinking feeling in
Speaker 2: my stomach of I'm about to get fired, I'm in trouble.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, who knows what's about to happen? And
Speaker 2: of course, I probably walk in and it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: so are you able to take on this? It's like
Speaker 2: just a mundane ask, absolutely, but just this sinking feeling
Speaker 2: of it's just it's a matter of time before I
Speaker 2: get in big trouble. And obviously, okay, we don't have
Speaker 2: to reach too far for like where that comes from.
Speaker 2: But I think this parallel of boss and caregiver is
Speaker 2: so important because there are some similarities. Number One, there's
Speaker 2: an authoritative figure. Okay, both are authoritative. Number Two, they
Speaker 2: both are providing a sense of security and steadiness in
Speaker 2: our lives. We need a paycheck to feed ourselves into
Speaker 2: pay rent. And in the same way, we need a
Speaker 2: caregiver to be fed and to be taken care of
Speaker 2: and to have a roof over our heads. And so
Speaker 2: when we are having anxiety with a boss and getting
Speaker 2: in trouble, I think in many ways, this younger version
Speaker 2: is remembering how did I have to appease and act
Speaker 2: in order to satisfy my parent so that I could
Speaker 2: be safe. Because it's a very similar power dynamic at play,
Speaker 2: And it's a great example of yeah, yeah, sometimes we
Speaker 2: need to because again, like we live, we live in capitalism,
Speaker 2: we have to survive. Yeah, but managing that anxiety, I
Speaker 2: think is what's in our control.
Speaker 1: I think the most vicious message a boss can send
Speaker 1: is capital Hey, period, horrible, the meanest thing. I mean,
Speaker 1: would you just like to put me down?
Speaker 2: Two week notice, I'll do it.
Speaker 1: There's nothing after that's just hate. Period. And then right
Speaker 1: back you're like, hey, I'm available two minutes. You not
Speaker 1: to have this conversation, and then they don't respond for
Speaker 1: a while, and then later they're like, you know what, yeah, Maya,
Speaker 1: I'm actually signing off for the weekend. Why don't we
Speaker 1: chat Monday?
Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, oh my god, my palms are sweating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you ruined my life and I will not be
Speaker 1: having a week end, thank you very much. I will
Speaker 1: be thinking about this forever.
Speaker 2: And there's that urgency like we got to talk about
Speaker 2: it now because I will not be okay until we're
Speaker 2: okay exactly okay.
Speaker 1: So Meg, for those of us who instinctively meet moments
Speaker 1: like this one with a fawn response, what does it
Speaker 1: look like to actually shift this pattern within ourselves?
Speaker 2: Healing really starts with awareness and that these are unconscious
Speaker 2: patterns that are happening. We've been doing this for decades.
Speaker 2: Probably it's happening unconsciously reactively, so by being aware of it,
Speaker 2: by pausing, by slowing down, we're bringing this unconscious pattern
Speaker 2: into the conscious mind. We can't change anything until that's happened,
Speaker 2: until we are inserting a pause before we react and
Speaker 2: maybe trying something new, and maybe we're still fawning and reacting,
Speaker 2: but even pausing afterward and looking back at like why
Speaker 2: did I apologize or why did I say yes when
Speaker 2: I really didn't want to do that, Even if it's
Speaker 2: after the fact, that's still awareness. I also view another
Speaker 2: really important pillar of healing the fun response is slowly
Speaker 2: and safely increasing our tolerance for discomfort, discomfort within ourselves,
Speaker 2: being with our anxiety, being with our anger, being with
Speaker 2: our resentment, and also being with discomfort in our relationships,
Speaker 2: Practicing being more honest and direct in our relationships, practicing
Speaker 2: saying no, and I say slowly and safely with such intentionality,
Speaker 2: Because if you were to try to set a boundary
Speaker 2: and the first one you've ever said in your life
Speaker 2: is with your volatile parent, that's not going to go well, right,
Speaker 2: and that's going to feel like a shock to the body.
Speaker 2: The body's going to be like, what was that? This
Speaker 2: is why I fond? What are we doing? Take me
Speaker 2: back to what I know? And so let's not do that.
Speaker 2: It's more slowly increasing our tolerance so that we can
Speaker 2: be uncomfortable but still safe at the same time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what does it look like to slowly build tolerance
Speaker 1: for discomfort?
Speaker 2: So let's say this friend isn't texting you back, and
Speaker 2: then this starts triggering some are you mad at me?
Speaker 2: Thinking did I do something wrong? They must hate me?
Speaker 2: And maybe your familiar instinct is to send them a
Speaker 2: funny video to break the ice, or to compliment them,
Speaker 2: or to like just diffuse this perceived tension in some way.
Speaker 2: Sitting with discomfort in this example would probably look like pause,
Speaker 2: put the phone down, take a second. What's going on here?
Speaker 2: And in my book, I have an acronym called nicser,
Speaker 2: So maybe that's first. Okay, noticing notice that something has
Speaker 2: changed for you, Notice that some anxiety was triggered, Notice
Speaker 2: that you're thinking about these worst case scenarios. Just acknowledge it,
Speaker 2: notice it. It's then I invite it to stay. This
Speaker 2: is allowed to be here. I think our first instinct
Speaker 2: is to shove our emotions down. I shouldn't be upset,
Speaker 2: I shouldn't be anxious. It's okay, this is allowed to
Speaker 2: be here. I'm allowed to feel this, having some sea curiosity.
Speaker 2: What triggered this? Okay, well, she didn't text me back
Speaker 2: for three hours, and then this triggered this fear that
Speaker 2: she hates me, or that I said a stupid joke
Speaker 2: last night and now she's ghosting me or whatever. Curiosity okay,
Speaker 2: and then what does that feel like in my body?
Speaker 2: My heart's racing, my palms are sweating. Curiosity and then
Speaker 2: e embracing this emotion. This is the most uncomfortable step
Speaker 2: for many people, which is as if we're kind of
Speaker 2: wrapping that emotion and anxiety in a blanket.
Speaker 1: When I want to hit it with a baseball.
Speaker 2: Mats maas, Yeah, you're like, I hate I don't feeling this.
Speaker 2: We're not shoving this away. This is allowed to be here.
Speaker 2: This is just some feeling of dysregulation, and I'm safe
Speaker 2: and having some gentleness and softness with this emotion. And then,
Speaker 2: lastly is our return to what's real and true right now? Okay,
Speaker 2: so we just went through this scenario. What's actually happening
Speaker 2: I'm breathing in my body, my feet are on the ground,
Speaker 2: there are sounds in the room. And this our step
Speaker 2: is so important because we're bringing ourselves through this hypothetical scenario.
Speaker 2: We don't even know if she's you. We don't know
Speaker 2: maybe she is, and that's its own discomfort. But in
Speaker 2: this moment, we don't know anything. And so by finishing
Speaker 2: this process, by returning to what's actually true, we're signaling
Speaker 2: to our body, this is what's actually real. This scenario
Speaker 2: feels real because physiologically I'm imagining it and I'm living it.
Speaker 2: But here's what's actually true right now. Just the process
Speaker 2: of pausing and looking inward. That's the win. That's the
Speaker 2: slowly increasing our tolerance, because in those three minutes that
Speaker 2: we were having some curiosity about what was happening, there
Speaker 2: is maybe some agitation, there was maybe some restlessness, and
Speaker 2: that's the discomfort that we're talking about. And so then
Speaker 2: there might be some clarity of I'm going to let
Speaker 2: this breathe. I'm not going to text her again, I'm
Speaker 2: not going to double text her. I'm just going to
Speaker 2: put the phone down and move on with my day.
Speaker 2: Or maybe you have clarity of no I think I
Speaker 2: want to talk about this with her, like whatever, the
Speaker 2: clarity comes through, but to look inward first before immediately
Speaker 2: trying to dissolve art discomfort through external validation. Yes, that's
Speaker 2: the practice.
Speaker 1: Okay, I mean double texting. Who would ever do that? Meg,
Speaker 1: I've never hypothetical quable texted someone. I'm curious to know
Speaker 1: a story in your recent life where you were finding
Speaker 1: yourself reverting back to your old fawning ways, and you
Speaker 1: utilized some of these insights. You utilized the nicer framework,
Speaker 1: for example, to break out of those old patterns of behavior,
Speaker 1: those old patterns of mine.
Speaker 2: Actually writing the book about the faun responds helped heal
Speaker 2: the fun responds the most in me, and that I
Speaker 2: wrote it thinking my dad would read it, but just
Speaker 2: thinking that here comes the faun responds, thinking of what
Speaker 2: will he think of this? And will he be mad
Speaker 2: at me? And will he get really upset about this line?
Speaker 2: And seeing it through his eyes instead of my own?
Speaker 2: And as I was writing it, I noticed that fear
Speaker 2: and I would it would come up. But the difference
Speaker 2: is I would notice it and I would soothe it
Speaker 2: and work through it. And so we're not getting rid
Speaker 2: of it because let's imagine this faun response part of
Speaker 2: ourselves as a younger version of us. I don't want
Speaker 2: to get rid of my younger version of me. I
Speaker 2: want her around. And if I were to look at
Speaker 2: that younger version of me and say, what's wrong with you?
Speaker 2: Get out of here, I don't want you here. I'm
Speaker 2: actually talking to her in the same way I was
Speaker 2: told growing up, which is something's wrong with you, and
Speaker 2: I want to have a new relationship with her. And
Speaker 2: so for me, when the faun response gets triggered, which
Speaker 2: it does quite frequently, because that younger version still exists,
Speaker 2: it's not about erasing that but moving through it, moving
Speaker 2: through the discomfort of it.
Speaker 1: You mentioned that when we fawn excessively anyway, we are
Speaker 1: abandoning a core part of who we are. Yeah, who
Speaker 1: are you, Meg? Now that you're less of a fauner?
Speaker 1: What parts of yourself have you uncovered or discovered that
Speaker 1: you simply didn't know were there before?
Speaker 2: I really thanks for that question. That's really thoughtful. First
Speaker 2: of all, I think this returning to the self is
Speaker 2: also not fixed. I think it's a constant getting to
Speaker 2: know ourselves, knowing that we are always changing and we
Speaker 2: are always evolving, so I almost feel like coming closer
Speaker 2: to myself has meant not gripping so hard on who
Speaker 2: that person is. But I've also found that when I
Speaker 2: feel closest to myself, I'm kind of returning to who
Speaker 2: I was as a kid, Like before people pleasing got
Speaker 2: a huge hold on me. I love to be creative.
Speaker 2: I love to spend time in nature. I love to
Speaker 2: be outside, I love to be cooking. Like I feel
Speaker 2: more clear on how I enjoyed to spend my time.
Speaker 2: I feel more clear on who I want to spend
Speaker 2: my time with. And I also feel that there's less
Speaker 2: thinking about who I am. I don't feel myself self
Speaker 2: analyzing am I this person? Or am I this person?
Speaker 1: Am I this? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I feel just more of it just is and that
Speaker 2: person comes through, and we all have different parts of ourselves,
Speaker 2: and I just feel a more easeful allowing of those parts.
Speaker 2: Granted I'm check in with me in thirty years. I'm
Speaker 2: sure I'll look back on myself now and be like,
Speaker 2: she had no idea who she was, but no, this
Speaker 2: is who I feel I am now.
Speaker 1: I love that so much. Think about all of the
Speaker 1: energy we pour into trying to figure out quote who
Speaker 1: we ought to be when actually just being is so
Speaker 1: easeful because you don't have to think about it.
Speaker 2: Yes, oh my gosh, and how perfect because the faun
Speaker 2: response is so rooted and doing more. I need to
Speaker 2: do more to be liked. I need to do more
Speaker 2: to be approved of and to shift the focus to being,
Speaker 2: and that it can be easy and more effortless to
Speaker 2: come back to ourselves. We don't have to try so
Speaker 2: hard to return. What a relief.
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you like what
Speaker 1: you heard, make sure to follow a slight Change of
Speaker 1: plans wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to
Speaker 1: pre order a copy of my book, The Other Side
Speaker 1: of Change wherever you buy books. You can also find
Speaker 1: a link in the show notes. It's hard to believe,
Speaker 1: but we're just a few weeks away from our final
Speaker 1: episode of the year. That means we're also gearing up
Speaker 1: for our twenty twenty sixth season. If there's someone that
Speaker 1: you think we should talk to or a topic you'd
Speaker 1: like to hear about, we'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 1: You can send us an email at slight Change at
Speaker 1: pushkin dot fm and join me soon for our final
Speaker 1: episode of the year, when comedian Zarnagar gives us a
Speaker 1: masterclass embedding on yourself.
Speaker 3: And Andrews would not matter in the end. In the end,
Speaker 3: all the failures are like the tasting spoons of life.
Speaker 3: You know, when you're making a soup, you taste it
Speaker 3: twenty dives. You just have to get it perfect by
Speaker 3: the end, and it will happen if you keep tasting enough.
Speaker 1: That's coming up on A Slight Change of Plans. See
Speaker 1: you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written
Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Changed
Speaker 1: family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate
Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan, our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubn, and
Speaker 1: our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful
Speaker 1: theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,
Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a
Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker.
Speaker 1: See you next week.
Speaker 3: The do