WEBVTT - The People-Pleaser’s Recovery Guide 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:33.556 Pushkin. Hey there, it's Maya. If you listen to the show, 0:00:33.676 --> 0:00:36.716 you know that I'm fascinated by how people respond when 0:00:36.756 --> 0:00:40.196 life doesn't go according to plan. My new book with 0:00:40.236 --> 0:00:43.756 Penguin Random House, The Other Side of Change, comes out 0:00:43.836 --> 0:00:47.276 January thirteenth, and it grew out of the same questions 0:00:47.316 --> 0:00:50.276 we explore on this podcast. What do we hold on 0:00:50.356 --> 0:00:53.036 to when life shifts, what do we let go of? 0:00:53.556 --> 0:00:55.796 And how do we find meaning on the other side. 0:00:56.316 --> 0:00:59.316 The Other Side of Change blends all new stories you 0:00:59.396 --> 0:01:03.436 haven't heard on the podcast with new scientific insights on resilience. 0:01:03.876 --> 0:01:05.636 My hope is that it gives you the tools you 0:01:05.716 --> 0:01:08.836 need to navigate your own moments of disruption with a 0:01:08.876 --> 0:01:11.796 great ter sense of possibility about who you can become 0:01:12.036 --> 0:01:14.796 on the Other Side of Change. You can learn more 0:01:14.876 --> 0:01:16.956 and pre order now at the link in the show 0:01:16.996 --> 0:01:21.596 notes or at Changewithmaya dot com slash book. That's changed 0:01:21.596 --> 0:01:24.476 with Maya dot com slash book And if you'd like 0:01:24.556 --> 0:01:28.356 to get more involved, I just launch an Ambassador's program, 0:01:28.476 --> 0:01:32.396 which will give you exclusive content, free perks, and invitation 0:01:32.516 --> 0:01:35.716 to a conversation with me and behind the scenes updates. 0:01:36.116 --> 0:01:39.916 You can join this new community at changewithmaya dot com 0:01:39.956 --> 0:01:42.996 slash join. I can't wait to share this book with you. 0:01:44.236 --> 0:01:47.036 Okay now, onto Meg Josephson. 0:01:47.756 --> 0:01:50.796 If you're upset with me, I can't feel okay until 0:01:50.916 --> 0:01:54.076 we're good again, Like I need to know that you're 0:01:54.116 --> 0:01:58.036 not upset with me before I can breathe again, because 0:01:58.036 --> 0:01:59.676 it's just so all consuming. 0:02:00.916 --> 0:02:04.716 That's Meg Josephson. She's a therapist and author of the 0:02:04.756 --> 0:02:08.276 New York Times bestseller Are You Mad at Me? How 0:02:08.276 --> 0:02:11.436 to stop focusing on what others think and start living 0:02:11.516 --> 0:02:15.636 for you. Meg says that when we're constantly focused on 0:02:15.716 --> 0:02:18.636 how others feel, we can abandon ourselves. 0:02:19.476 --> 0:02:21.516 It leads us to feeling like I don't know who 0:02:21.516 --> 0:02:24.076 I am. I don't know what my preferences are. I 0:02:24.076 --> 0:02:26.476 don't know what my interests are. What do I even 0:02:26.556 --> 0:02:28.996 think of this? What do I feel? Because we've been 0:02:29.036 --> 0:02:32.316 trained to be hypertuned to what everyone else wants and 0:02:32.396 --> 0:02:37.036 thinks and feels and needs. 0:02:38.236 --> 0:02:41.596 On today's show, who are We when we're not trying 0:02:41.596 --> 0:02:47.436 to please other people? I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who 0:02:47.476 --> 0:02:51.156 studies human behavior, and this is a slight change of plans, 0:02:51.676 --> 0:02:54.036 A show about who we are and who we become 0:02:54.436 --> 0:03:05.676 in the face of a big change. How often do 0:03:05.716 --> 0:03:08.596 you wonder if someone's mad at you? I do it 0:03:08.636 --> 0:03:12.196 all the time. I'm just this constant, low level worry 0:03:12.356 --> 0:03:16.156 that I may have upset someone without realizing it. So 0:03:16.196 --> 0:03:18.436 when I saw Meg's book, Are You Mad At Me? 0:03:18.956 --> 0:03:22.116 I felt like it was written for me. I used 0:03:22.116 --> 0:03:25.076 to think of people pleasing as pretty harmless. I mean, 0:03:25.076 --> 0:03:28.076 what's the worst thing that can happen? I'm overly nice 0:03:28.076 --> 0:03:31.956 and accommodating to someone. The Meg helped me see how, 0:03:31.996 --> 0:03:36.116 over time, constantly trying to please others can really erode 0:03:36.156 --> 0:03:39.996 our sense of self and even threaten the very relationships 0:03:40.036 --> 0:03:44.156 we're trying to protect. The good news, since we learned 0:03:44.156 --> 0:03:47.996 some of these patterns over time, we can also unlearn them. 0:03:48.716 --> 0:03:52.236 For Meg, people pleasing began in childhood. It was a 0:03:52.236 --> 0:03:54.516 way for her to stay safe in a home that 0:03:54.556 --> 0:03:56.276 didn't feel emotionally stable. 0:03:57.756 --> 0:04:00.196 I think as children, we grow up kind of wanting 0:04:00.236 --> 0:04:03.316 it to be black or white. It was all good 0:04:03.356 --> 0:04:05.156 or it was all bad, or it was loving or 0:04:05.196 --> 0:04:08.716 it wasn't loving. And there were loving moments, but they're 0:04:08.716 --> 0:04:12.316 also really painful ones as well, And so I think 0:04:12.356 --> 0:04:15.716 Honoring that complexity has been really important to me, just 0:04:15.796 --> 0:04:21.076 allowing there to be both. My dad struggled with addiction 0:04:21.476 --> 0:04:26.676 in my childhood and with that had a lot of rage. 0:04:27.356 --> 0:04:30.196 Things could just change very quickly. It kind of felt 0:04:30.196 --> 0:04:34.516 like a held breath in my home. The smallest things 0:04:34.796 --> 0:04:37.716 could set him off, if, like we're driving, I'm in 0:04:37.756 --> 0:04:40.316 the front seat with him, someone cuts him off like 0:04:40.356 --> 0:04:44.076 that would send him into a blind rage. But also 0:04:44.276 --> 0:04:48.956 just small things at home, like I would spill something 0:04:48.956 --> 0:04:52.196 by accident, or my mom would make a mistake or 0:04:52.316 --> 0:04:57.036 forget where her keys were, and just these tiny things 0:04:57.076 --> 0:04:59.956 that didn't feel like a big deal, but they became 0:04:59.996 --> 0:05:00.876 a really big deal. 0:05:03.236 --> 0:05:09.116 I loved the complexity and nuance that you capture around 0:05:09.276 --> 0:05:12.236 your relationship with your dad. You write in your book 0:05:12.356 --> 0:05:16.956 that you had lots of loving, tender moments with your dad, 0:05:17.076 --> 0:05:19.516 and you share it a lot in common, right, You 0:05:19.516 --> 0:05:22.036 saw many parts of yourself on him, like your creative 0:05:22.076 --> 0:05:24.196 side and what have you. And so tell me a 0:05:24.236 --> 0:05:27.116 bit more about that part of the relationship with your dad. 0:05:28.116 --> 0:05:31.996 Absolutely, he was my best friend growing up. He was 0:05:32.076 --> 0:05:37.556 so creative and very entrepreneurial in spirit, really silly. We 0:05:37.596 --> 0:05:40.396 would just make each other laugh like such a quirky, 0:05:40.756 --> 0:05:44.156 funny personality. Everyone would always tell us, Oh, you guys 0:05:44.196 --> 0:05:47.036 are so similar. You guys are so similar in terms 0:05:47.076 --> 0:05:51.476 of personality, And so we had a lot of fun moments. 0:05:51.596 --> 0:05:54.356 But even as a child, I remember wishing that he 0:05:54.516 --> 0:05:59.436 was all mean and all scary, because I remember thinking, 0:05:59.716 --> 0:06:02.956 even that young, he's two people. He's my best friend, 0:06:03.036 --> 0:06:06.756 and then he's the person who scares me more than anyone. 0:06:07.356 --> 0:06:10.076 And I just wanted to kind of a side how 0:06:10.076 --> 0:06:13.036 I felt it would just be easier. But life is 0:06:13.076 --> 0:06:15.876 never so easy and simple. Yeah, but you're so. 0:06:15.916 --> 0:06:19.196 Right, and I so resonate with especially as a young kid, 0:06:19.836 --> 0:06:23.596 wanting to carve the world into the black and white 0:06:23.636 --> 0:06:28.076 spaces and to make clear delineations between good and bad. 0:06:28.876 --> 0:06:34.436 As you were navigating this very complex environment where there 0:06:34.476 --> 0:06:38.036 was a lot of emotional volatility, how did you find 0:06:38.076 --> 0:06:39.916 yourself responding to that. 0:06:40.676 --> 0:06:44.036 I was just always watching him. I was always eyes 0:06:44.076 --> 0:06:47.876 were always on him. Let him set the tone, let 0:06:47.996 --> 0:06:51.756 him decide what this moment's going to be like. He 0:06:51.916 --> 0:06:56.516 had the power and control to dictate how the room felt. 0:06:57.636 --> 0:07:00.956 And if he's happy, then I can exhale and be 0:07:01.036 --> 0:07:03.076 happy too, And if he's in a bad mood, I 0:07:03.116 --> 0:07:08.396 will just course correct and act accordingly. But I blamed 0:07:08.436 --> 0:07:11.356 myself for it, or I thought that it was my fault. 0:07:11.636 --> 0:07:13.516 And for a child, it's like, what's the one thing 0:07:13.516 --> 0:07:16.916 in my control? I'll never mess up, I'll never make 0:07:16.956 --> 0:07:20.596 mistakes because if I'm perfect, there's nothing to criticize. It's 0:07:20.596 --> 0:07:24.196 a preventative measure to take. I think my coping was 0:07:24.596 --> 0:07:28.196 immediately correcting of like, are you mad at me? Am 0:07:28.276 --> 0:07:30.956 I in trouble? Did I do something wrong? What can 0:07:30.996 --> 0:07:36.076 I do? How can my actions appease you and soothe you? 0:07:36.116 --> 0:07:38.716 And obviously this isn't a conscious thing that I'm thinking 0:07:38.716 --> 0:07:41.476 about as a child, but it was just I think, 0:07:41.556 --> 0:07:45.276 immediately course correcting so that I would be approved of 0:07:46.076 --> 0:07:46.676 once again. 0:07:47.716 --> 0:07:50.796 FIRSTP I so relate to this question are you mad 0:07:50.796 --> 0:07:53.556 at me? I mean, I think maybe I've asked myself 0:07:53.556 --> 0:07:56.396 that an infinite number of times Meg in my life. 0:07:56.476 --> 0:07:57.636 You're not alone. 0:07:58.436 --> 0:08:00.716 What was it about someone being mad at you that 0:08:00.796 --> 0:08:04.596 carried so much power in young Meg's mind? Why was 0:08:04.636 --> 0:08:05.756 it so significant to you? 0:08:06.636 --> 0:08:10.156 I felt this my whole life, with friends, with teachers, 0:08:10.236 --> 0:08:14.636 with my dad. If you're upset with me, I can't 0:08:14.636 --> 0:08:18.396 feel okay until we're good again, Like I need to 0:08:18.476 --> 0:08:20.796 know that you're not upset with me before I can 0:08:21.276 --> 0:08:26.556 breathe again, because it's just so all consuming. He would yell, 0:08:26.716 --> 0:08:30.396 or he would say really hurtful things or call me 0:08:30.476 --> 0:08:34.436 something that was really hurtful, and there was no repair 0:08:34.516 --> 0:08:37.876 after the fact. There was no hey, I'm so sorry 0:08:37.996 --> 0:08:40.876 that that happened, and let's talk about it. It was 0:08:40.956 --> 0:08:44.236 just I'd go downstairs and it's like, so, what about 0:08:44.276 --> 0:08:48.636 for dinner? Or it's just awkward, and no one's acknowledging 0:08:48.676 --> 0:08:52.556 what just happened. What ends up happening When we don't 0:08:52.596 --> 0:08:57.556 receive that acknowledgment accountability repair, well, two things happened, we 0:08:57.596 --> 0:09:00.916 start to blame ourselves. It goes from I did something 0:09:00.956 --> 0:09:04.996 bad to make dad upset, and when that happens every 0:09:05.076 --> 0:09:10.356 day or weekly or just frequently, I did something bad 0:09:10.396 --> 0:09:13.556 to I am bad, and it cultivates this feeling of 0:09:13.636 --> 0:09:17.636 something's wrong with me, I'm always in trouble, I'm secretly bad, 0:09:17.676 --> 0:09:20.436 and it's just a matter of time before everyone finds out. 0:09:21.156 --> 0:09:26.116 But then, also as adults, because we didn't witness that 0:09:26.196 --> 0:09:29.916 coming back together after a conflict, we end up believing 0:09:29.996 --> 0:09:32.476 when there's conflict, i e. When someone's mad at me, 0:09:32.636 --> 0:09:37.836 the relationship's over, it's ruined. I will be abandoned. It's 0:09:37.836 --> 0:09:41.516 so personal, it's a rejection of who I am. And 0:09:41.556 --> 0:09:45.196 if being perfect and being good or being funny is 0:09:45.236 --> 0:09:47.956 like a way to prevent that from happening, why wouldn't 0:09:47.996 --> 0:09:51.396 we do that? And that's why I talk about people 0:09:51.436 --> 0:09:56.116 pleasing as such a brilliant safety mechanism, because it's how 0:09:56.156 --> 0:09:58.676 brilliant that as children we know how to do that, 0:09:58.756 --> 0:10:00.716 and that we know to do it in the first place. 0:10:01.636 --> 0:10:04.356 You talk in the book about how people pleasing can 0:10:04.396 --> 0:10:08.596 be called a fond response for listeners who are not familiar. 0:10:09.196 --> 0:10:11.836 Tell me more about what a fawn response is. 0:10:12.636 --> 0:10:16.916 Yes, our body has what we know for responses to 0:10:16.916 --> 0:10:18.796 a threat, fight or flight, which I think a lot 0:10:18.796 --> 0:10:22.076 of us know freeze, and the fourth one is the 0:10:22.156 --> 0:10:26.156 fawn response. What it means is when there is a threat, 0:10:26.476 --> 0:10:28.876 whether that threat is real or perceived. So there's a 0:10:28.916 --> 0:10:31.436 line in front of us, or our boss is being 0:10:31.476 --> 0:10:33.436 a little cold or stand offish, and we're like, are 0:10:33.516 --> 0:10:36.516 you madam, don't just me wrong? We appease the threat. 0:10:36.676 --> 0:10:38.396 We try to be liked by it, we try to 0:10:38.476 --> 0:10:42.276 impress it, satisfy it, diffuse conflict so that we can 0:10:42.356 --> 0:10:46.476 go back to feeling safe. Sometimes we need to do this, 0:10:46.916 --> 0:10:51.556 whether it's in childhood, whether it's to survive in the 0:10:51.636 --> 0:10:54.196 oppressive systems that we're living within, whether it's to get 0:10:54.236 --> 0:10:57.556 a paycheck. Sometimes we need to. It's not to say 0:10:57.636 --> 0:11:00.196 we don't ever need this, but, like I was speaking 0:11:00.236 --> 0:11:02.316 too earlier, if we're doing it all the time, if 0:11:02.356 --> 0:11:04.716 we're doing it with our best friend when we don't 0:11:04.756 --> 0:11:06.596 need to be, if we're doing it with a loving partner, 0:11:07.436 --> 0:11:11.036 that's when it takes a toll body and becomes exhausting 0:11:11.116 --> 0:11:15.596 and leads to burnout and resentment in our relationships, anxiety, 0:11:15.716 --> 0:11:17.556 overthinking overall. 0:11:17.796 --> 0:11:20.836 Can people think of it as just trying to do 0:11:21.356 --> 0:11:25.276 or say whatever you feel will appease the other person? 0:11:26.276 --> 0:11:27.196 How should I think about that? 0:11:27.916 --> 0:11:28.116 Yeah? 0:11:28.196 --> 0:11:30.156 I think if it as an external piece and an 0:11:30.236 --> 0:11:35.036 internal piece, the external being not setting boundaries, avoiding conflict 0:11:35.076 --> 0:11:37.716 at all costs, saying yes when you want to say no, 0:11:38.716 --> 0:11:42.276 contorting your opinions to match whoever you're with because you 0:11:42.476 --> 0:11:44.836 just want to be liked by them or you don't 0:11:44.836 --> 0:11:49.196 want them thinking you disagree silencing your needs, shoving your 0:11:49.236 --> 0:11:53.116 feelings down. But then I also think there is an 0:11:53.316 --> 0:11:57.396 internal element that's more secret and more private, which is 0:11:58.316 --> 0:12:02.716 I find safety in pleasing you, and I find safety 0:12:02.756 --> 0:12:06.156 in doing more and being liked. And in order to 0:12:06.236 --> 0:12:08.876 do that, we have to abandon ourselves. In order for 0:12:08.996 --> 0:12:13.396 us to be hypertuned to the person's facial reactions and 0:12:13.556 --> 0:12:18.236 body language, we have to leave ourselves to successfully do that. 0:12:19.196 --> 0:12:23.036 And so internally what ends up happening a lot. And 0:12:23.156 --> 0:12:25.796 this is more something that I always felt kind of 0:12:25.876 --> 0:12:28.196 weird in, but then when I became a therapist, I'm like, 0:12:28.316 --> 0:12:30.876 oh my gosh, other people feel this too, and so 0:12:30.996 --> 0:12:34.996 that was a really illuminating experience for me. This overthinking 0:12:35.076 --> 0:12:37.516 social reactions. Did I say the wrong thing? I can't 0:12:37.516 --> 0:12:39.436 believe I did my joke not land, What did they 0:12:39.476 --> 0:12:41.916 think of this? Should I apologize for this? Feeling like 0:12:42.076 --> 0:12:44.636 we're always about to get in trouble, like we're bad, 0:12:45.436 --> 0:12:47.796 wondering how are you mad at me? In our relationships, 0:12:48.316 --> 0:12:51.876 replaying things again and again with the fun response, we 0:12:51.956 --> 0:12:54.636 often feel like we can only show people the best, 0:12:54.996 --> 0:12:58.636 most perfect version of ourselves, and so we feel like 0:12:58.716 --> 0:13:02.196 we're often performing in our relationships, and that can feel 0:13:02.236 --> 0:13:04.876 quite lonely. It can feel like am I fake? 0:13:05.076 --> 0:13:05.276 Am I? 0:13:05.796 --> 0:13:08.796 People don't really know me? I'm always keeping people at 0:13:08.796 --> 0:13:11.756 a day stints, And it also leads us to feeling 0:13:11.876 --> 0:13:13.756 like I don't know who I am. I don't know 0:13:14.196 --> 0:13:16.316 what my preferences are. I don't know what my interests are. 0:13:16.876 --> 0:13:19.196 What do I even think of this? What do I feel? 0:13:19.316 --> 0:13:21.636 Because we've been trained to be hyper attuned to what 0:13:21.716 --> 0:13:24.916 everyone else wants and thinks and feels and needs. 0:13:25.836 --> 0:13:28.676 Yeah, I'm reflecting in this moment about how when I 0:13:28.796 --> 0:13:30.556 was a little kid, I was bullied a lot, and 0:13:31.636 --> 0:13:37.116 I absolutely engage in those interactions with a fund response. 0:13:37.276 --> 0:13:41.396 I internalized the cruelty as evidence that I was broken 0:13:42.396 --> 0:13:46.116 in some really deep way, and I remember thinking, well, 0:13:46.116 --> 0:13:47.836 I'm just going to kill them with kindness, Like if 0:13:47.836 --> 0:13:51.036 I'm just like extra nice to the mean girls, maybe 0:13:51.236 --> 0:13:53.596 one day they'll like me. And I think you were 0:13:53.636 --> 0:13:59.036 talking about losing yourself. I mean I when I reflect 0:13:59.156 --> 0:14:00.876 back on the way I would interact with some of 0:14:00.916 --> 0:14:04.076 my classmates, some of these girls in my neighborhood, there's 0:14:04.116 --> 0:14:08.036 such a loss of self respect and dignity. Yeah, but 0:14:08.196 --> 0:14:13.596 I didn't even care in those moments about any kind 0:14:13.676 --> 0:14:17.836 of pride or self respect. I was like, I will 0:14:17.916 --> 0:14:22.636 do anything just to get these kids to like me back, 0:14:22.756 --> 0:14:27.116 or to just stop being mean. And the last thought 0:14:27.156 --> 0:14:30.356 on my mind was what does this do to my 0:14:31.156 --> 0:14:31.836 sense of self? 0:14:32.116 --> 0:14:34.516 Well, of course, and that makes so much sense. And 0:14:34.676 --> 0:14:38.516 the fawn response is really common with bullying, it's really 0:14:38.556 --> 0:14:41.716 common with abuse. And of course you're not, especially as 0:14:41.716 --> 0:14:44.956 a child, you're not thinking about, well, what do I deserve? 0:14:45.276 --> 0:14:47.556 Do I even like them? Of course you're not thinking 0:14:47.596 --> 0:14:50.436 about that A because you're detecting a threat. Yes, And 0:14:50.516 --> 0:14:54.156 there's no time to pause. When we are feeling in danger. 0:14:54.996 --> 0:14:57.756 You're just going to appease. And if you were to fight, 0:14:58.716 --> 0:15:02.436 flight or freeze at school, you'd probably get in trouble. Right. 0:15:02.556 --> 0:15:04.716 It's the only threat response that we're not punished for, 0:15:05.556 --> 0:15:09.076 which definitely reinforces the need to fawn in the first place. 0:15:09.356 --> 0:15:12.956 But also, as children, our sense of belonging and safety 0:15:14.076 --> 0:15:16.316 at school and at home is our entire world. 0:15:16.716 --> 0:15:22.516 Yeah, you've written about different fond types. Can you walk 0:15:22.596 --> 0:15:23.716 us through some of those? 0:15:24.716 --> 0:15:28.596 Yeah, I have six archetypes, and so you might resonate 0:15:28.716 --> 0:15:30.636 with all of them. You might see yourself more in 0:15:30.796 --> 0:15:33.476 a few of them, but it's really just to illuminate, Oh, 0:15:33.596 --> 0:15:36.756 this is how I have protected myself so that we 0:15:36.796 --> 0:15:40.356 can understand it and begin to shed that identity in 0:15:40.476 --> 0:15:45.076 many ways. So I have the peacekeeper, which definitely finds 0:15:45.116 --> 0:15:50.276 the most safety in creating a harmonious environment and harmonious relationships, 0:15:50.916 --> 0:15:54.516 whether that's being super hyper vigilant of what people are 0:15:54.636 --> 0:15:57.036 feeling and needing, maybe it's killing them with kindness and 0:15:57.276 --> 0:16:00.836 just harmony is the most important thing to a peacekeeper, 0:16:00.916 --> 0:16:05.996 and those beliefs sort of manifest as other people's happiness 0:16:06.076 --> 0:16:09.036 is my responsibility. I'm in charge of managing people's moods. 0:16:09.476 --> 0:16:11.556 When someone's in a bad mood, it's my fault and 0:16:11.636 --> 0:16:16.676 it's my responsibility to fix it. The performer is I 0:16:16.836 --> 0:16:20.516 have this vignette of little boy who grew up with 0:16:20.676 --> 0:16:24.556 really depressed parents, and he would find safety in just 0:16:24.676 --> 0:16:31.036 being the really funny clown performing type and his job 0:16:31.356 --> 0:16:35.396 was to make sure that everyone was happy. And so 0:16:35.556 --> 0:16:38.396 as an adult, what that manifests as is I need 0:16:38.596 --> 0:16:42.796 to always kind of be on I can't slip, but 0:16:42.956 --> 0:16:45.156 also feeling like, oh my gosh, no one really knows 0:16:45.276 --> 0:16:49.196 me because I'm only showing them this on version, I'm 0:16:49.236 --> 0:16:54.196 only showing them this masking that happens. And then the caretaker, 0:16:54.916 --> 0:16:58.756 which is fulfilling the parent role in some way, whether 0:16:58.876 --> 0:17:02.476 that was you had a sibling who had a disability 0:17:02.596 --> 0:17:05.156 or mental health issues or a parent who had those 0:17:05.196 --> 0:17:08.356 struggles and you had to fulfill the parent role, whether 0:17:08.396 --> 0:17:13.076 it was emotional, whether it was physically caretaking in some way, 0:17:13.876 --> 0:17:18.556 whether your first generation of immigrant parents and you're going 0:17:18.756 --> 0:17:21.916 with them to appointments as a child to help them translate. 0:17:21.956 --> 0:17:25.636 You're taking on this parental role. The caretaker might be 0:17:25.756 --> 0:17:29.396 drawn to people as adults who they kind of need 0:17:29.476 --> 0:17:33.316 to mother or parent their partner in some way. Their 0:17:33.436 --> 0:17:37.836 value is in being helpful and fixing and saving people. 0:17:38.556 --> 0:17:44.116 So you just describe Meg peacekeeper, performer, and caretaker. Yeah, 0:17:44.196 --> 0:17:48.196 I think I resonate most closely with peacekeeper. I will 0:17:48.276 --> 0:17:51.956 insert myself into conversations that don't even involve me to 0:17:52.076 --> 0:17:54.436 try to facilitate peace. If there is a lack of 0:17:54.476 --> 0:17:56.476 peace between me and someone else, that's the sort of 0:17:56.516 --> 0:17:57.996 thing that will keep me up at night and prevent 0:17:58.076 --> 0:18:01.276 me from sleeping. Well, there's this urgency in my mind 0:18:01.316 --> 0:18:04.636 that has to be resolved as quickly as possible. Which 0:18:04.676 --> 0:18:07.716 ones of those three do you most identify with. 0:18:08.596 --> 0:18:11.396 Everything you just said, every single piece I resonate with 0:18:11.596 --> 0:18:14.316 so much. And what's so important to know and to 0:18:14.436 --> 0:18:17.236 understand is number one. As an adult, when that's happening, 0:18:18.636 --> 0:18:21.036 your body's remembering when you needed to do that, Like 0:18:21.116 --> 0:18:23.636 your body is returning to that time in life when 0:18:23.716 --> 0:18:27.636 there were major consequences if there wasn't peace, if you 0:18:27.756 --> 0:18:30.596 weren't playing that role. So that younger version of you 0:18:30.876 --> 0:18:32.836 that's trying to protect you and keep you safe is 0:18:32.916 --> 0:18:36.356 still within you. Is Oh, time to wake up, time 0:18:36.436 --> 0:18:41.876 to work hard and fix this situation. And when we 0:18:42.116 --> 0:18:45.956 are in this state of survival mode in the fun response, 0:18:47.516 --> 0:18:52.356 it is urgent, like if we were in danger, Urgency 0:18:52.636 --> 0:18:56.556 is survival mode and slowness is safety. And so if 0:18:56.636 --> 0:19:00.996 we are detecting some sort of threat and we're reacting 0:19:01.156 --> 0:19:04.196 very urgently, this has to be addressed immediately. It's such 0:19:04.276 --> 0:19:07.676 a sign that there is some dysregulation happening. Our body 0:19:07.756 --> 0:19:10.596 is entering into a state of sval mode. That's why 0:19:10.636 --> 0:19:14.476 it's so incredible our awareness when we can be aware 0:19:14.636 --> 0:19:18.116 of this as it's happening and slow ourselves down with 0:19:18.236 --> 0:19:23.036 our breath, with any grounding technique that feels soothing to ourselves. 0:19:23.516 --> 0:19:26.396 We're communicating to our bodies that we're safe, because if 0:19:26.396 --> 0:19:29.116 we were actually in danger, there wouldn't be time to 0:19:29.276 --> 0:19:31.796 take three breaths before responding to the text. 0:19:32.796 --> 0:19:38.916 Isn't it crazy how all consuming the are you mad 0:19:38.956 --> 0:19:42.756 at me? Refrain can be for people that really don't 0:19:42.836 --> 0:19:44.956 matter to us. I mean, I just have to put 0:19:44.996 --> 0:19:49.116 that out there. It drives me crazy, Meg, because the 0:19:49.276 --> 0:19:52.836 concern that someone's mad at me will completely hijack my brain. 0:19:53.316 --> 0:19:54.996 I will come to feel that that person is the 0:19:55.076 --> 0:19:58.396 most important person in the world, and then I'll reflect 0:19:58.476 --> 0:20:00.916 on it for a moment and be like, what are 0:20:00.996 --> 0:20:06.876 you doing? Get a grip. It's misallocating importance to relationships 0:20:06.916 --> 0:20:10.196 that truly should not matter. Because the fear of not 0:20:10.436 --> 0:20:13.476 being liked or approved of is such a threat. 0:20:13.476 --> 0:20:17.436 You're speaking to it perfectly. Because threats are black or white. 0:20:18.156 --> 0:20:21.236 When we're in survival mode, we're safe or we're not. 0:20:22.476 --> 0:20:25.316 It's good or it's bad. We're in danger or we're not. 0:20:25.596 --> 0:20:27.756 It is all or nothing, and so when we're in 0:20:27.836 --> 0:20:30.676 survival mode, there's no room for nuance. There's no room 0:20:30.796 --> 0:20:33.356 for how much do I value this relationship? Is it 0:20:33.436 --> 0:20:36.436 actually okay if this person perceives me in a way 0:20:36.476 --> 0:20:39.956 that I don't agree with, knowing that we cannot take 0:20:40.076 --> 0:20:43.276 in that much information, If we were taking in everyone's 0:20:43.316 --> 0:20:46.556 feedback to us, we would be a million people because 0:20:46.596 --> 0:20:50.236 everyone's going to have a different take. But actually, reflecting 0:20:50.276 --> 0:20:53.996 on I'm working so hard to gain this person's approval. 0:20:54.076 --> 0:20:55.916 Is this someone I look up to? Is this someone 0:20:56.036 --> 0:21:00.076 that I really want to embody the qualities that they have? 0:21:00.916 --> 0:21:03.836 And is this person someone who's even treated me well? 0:21:03.956 --> 0:21:06.276 I mean, I think that's been the most devastating part. 0:21:06.396 --> 0:21:08.596 I'm just reflecting on an incident earlier this year where 0:21:08.596 --> 0:21:11.796 I was just viving sort of the contours of this 0:21:12.116 --> 0:21:14.596 relationship that again shouldn't matter. I was talking about it 0:21:14.636 --> 0:21:17.236 with my husband, and my husband was like, Maya, this 0:21:17.436 --> 0:21:22.236 person has not treated you well. Yeah, like he could 0:21:22.276 --> 0:21:26.676 see it so clearly. This person was actually out of 0:21:26.836 --> 0:21:29.876 line in terms of the way they engage with you 0:21:30.356 --> 0:21:33.156 and the lack of respect they showed you. And yet 0:21:33.196 --> 0:21:35.316 you're willing to throw your self respect out the door 0:21:35.916 --> 0:21:38.756 just to get them to like you back. And it 0:21:38.876 --> 0:21:40.836 was a meaningful moment for me because I just hadn't 0:21:40.876 --> 0:21:44.716 heard someone say so clearly to me, you should respect 0:21:44.716 --> 0:21:45.556 yourself more than this. 0:21:46.076 --> 0:21:48.836 You're really speaking to the heart of the faun response, 0:21:49.476 --> 0:21:54.556 which is kind of like befriending our bullies and leaning 0:21:54.756 --> 0:22:01.316 into people that feel threatening. That's really what the faun 0:22:01.396 --> 0:22:05.916 response is. It's going further into people that are unavailable 0:22:06.116 --> 0:22:10.556 or critical. That feels, first of ball, like home in 0:22:10.676 --> 0:22:13.316 some way. Okay, I need to work hard for me 0:22:13.436 --> 0:22:17.556 to be loved. Yes, familiar feel safe to us. And 0:22:17.716 --> 0:22:20.196 so even if it's a relationship, if you're like trying 0:22:20.236 --> 0:22:24.636 to befriend someone who's not nice to you, that familiarity 0:22:24.716 --> 0:22:28.396 feels comforting. Even if intellectually we know it's not a 0:22:28.436 --> 0:22:31.076 good relationship for us, if it's what we've known in 0:22:31.196 --> 0:22:36.356 our parental relationships or a past romantic relationship, there's some 0:22:36.676 --> 0:22:39.756 piece that feel safe because it's what we know, and 0:22:39.876 --> 0:22:42.876 so it reminds us of this original hurtful relationship, and 0:22:42.916 --> 0:22:45.676 there's a part of us that believes, if I can 0:22:45.916 --> 0:22:47.996 just fix this, if I can be enough for this 0:22:48.236 --> 0:22:52.196 person that's not nice to me, then it'll fix and 0:22:52.356 --> 0:22:56.596 heal this core hurtful relationship we were re enacting the 0:22:56.676 --> 0:22:59.596 wound so that we can finally fix it. And of 0:22:59.676 --> 0:23:01.516 course we're never going to be good enough for the 0:23:01.596 --> 0:23:04.996 people that aren't right for us. Yeah, yeah, exactly, But 0:23:05.596 --> 0:23:08.276 that's the faun response, is leaning in to a threat. 0:23:08.436 --> 0:23:11.396 Yeah, I love what you just said, and I love 0:23:11.476 --> 0:23:14.356 to hear about the three other types of fun responses. Yes, 0:23:14.436 --> 0:23:19.036 so we've got perfectionist, chameleon and lone wolf, and I 0:23:19.116 --> 0:23:24.316 can already say chameleon is my jam Oh? Yeah, do 0:23:24.436 --> 0:23:26.596 I have a personality or do I just be no 0:23:27.116 --> 0:23:28.196 what other people want me to be? 0:23:28.276 --> 0:23:31.876 In that moment, you are not alone. The chameleon really 0:23:32.276 --> 0:23:37.676 morphs themselves to fit in with whoever they're with, And 0:23:37.756 --> 0:23:40.436 I think that's really we have to in many ways, 0:23:40.476 --> 0:23:43.076 like how you are with your boss will be different 0:23:43.156 --> 0:23:45.876 from with your best friend. But the chameleon is doing 0:23:45.956 --> 0:23:48.476 this in all of their relationships, feeling like I don't 0:23:48.516 --> 0:23:51.796 know who I am? And I write about this myself personally, 0:23:51.876 --> 0:23:54.756 of like graduating college and I remember wondering, am I 0:23:54.836 --> 0:23:57.196 just a medley of other people's personalities? 0:23:57.276 --> 0:23:57.316 Like? 0:23:57.956 --> 0:24:00.316 Am I just? Who am I? Who am I? When 0:24:00.316 --> 0:24:04.356