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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey there, it's Maya. If you listen to the show,

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Speaker 1: you know that I'm fascinated by how people respond when

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Speaker 1: life doesn't go according to plan. My new book with

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Speaker 1: Penguin Random House, The Other Side of Change, comes out

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Speaker 1: January thirteenth, and it grew out of the same questions

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Speaker 1: we explore on this podcast. What do we hold on

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Speaker 1: to when life shifts, what do we let go of?

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Speaker 1: And how do we find meaning on the other side.

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Speaker 1: The Other Side of Change blends all new stories you

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Speaker 1: haven't heard on the podcast with new scientific insights on resilience.

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Speaker 1: My hope is that it gives you the tools you

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Speaker 1: need to navigate your own moments of disruption with a

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Speaker 1: great ter sense of possibility about who you can become

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Speaker 1: on the Other Side of Change. You can learn more

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Speaker 1: and pre order now at the link in the show

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Speaker 1: notes or at Changewithmaya dot com slash book. That's changed

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Speaker 1: with Maya dot com slash book And if you'd like

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Speaker 1: to get more involved, I just launch an Ambassador's program,

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Speaker 1: which will give you exclusive content, free perks, and invitation

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Speaker 1: to a conversation with me and behind the scenes updates.

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Speaker 1: You can join this new community at changewithmaya dot com

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Speaker 1: slash join. I can't wait to share this book with you.

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Speaker 1: Okay now, onto Meg Josephson.

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Speaker 2: If you're upset with me, I can't feel okay until

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Speaker 2: we're good again, Like I need to know that you're

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Speaker 2: not upset with me before I can breathe again, because

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Speaker 2: it's just so all consuming.

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Speaker 1: That's Meg Josephson. She's a therapist and author of the

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Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller Are You Mad at Me? How

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Speaker 1: to stop focusing on what others think and start living

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Speaker 1: for you. Meg says that when we're constantly focused on

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Speaker 1: how others feel, we can abandon ourselves.

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Speaker 2: It leads us to feeling like I don't know who

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Speaker 2: I am. I don't know what my preferences are. I

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Speaker 2: don't know what my interests are. What do I even

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Speaker 2: think of this? What do I feel? Because we've been

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Speaker 2: trained to be hypertuned to what everyone else wants and

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Speaker 2: thinks and feels and needs.

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Speaker 1: On today's show, who are We when we're not trying

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Speaker 1: to please other people? I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who

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Speaker 1: studies human behavior, and this is a slight change of plans,

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Speaker 1: A show about who we are and who we become

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Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. How often do

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Speaker 1: you wonder if someone's mad at you? I do it

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Speaker 1: all the time. I'm just this constant, low level worry

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Speaker 1: that I may have upset someone without realizing it. So

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Speaker 1: when I saw Meg's book, Are You Mad At Me?

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Speaker 1: I felt like it was written for me. I used

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Speaker 1: to think of people pleasing as pretty harmless. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what's the worst thing that can happen? I'm overly nice

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Speaker 1: and accommodating to someone. The Meg helped me see how,

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Speaker 1: over time, constantly trying to please others can really erode

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Speaker 1: our sense of self and even threaten the very relationships

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Speaker 1: we're trying to protect. The good news, since we learned

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Speaker 1: some of these patterns over time, we can also unlearn them.

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Speaker 1: For Meg, people pleasing began in childhood. It was a

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Speaker 1: way for her to stay safe in a home that

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Speaker 1: didn't feel emotionally stable.

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Speaker 2: I think as children, we grow up kind of wanting

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Speaker 2: it to be black or white. It was all good

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Speaker 2: or it was all bad, or it was loving or

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Speaker 2: it wasn't loving. And there were loving moments, but they're

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Speaker 2: also really painful ones as well, And so I think

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Speaker 2: Honoring that complexity has been really important to me, just

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Speaker 2: allowing there to be both. My dad struggled with addiction

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Speaker 2: in my childhood and with that had a lot of rage.

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Speaker 2: Things could just change very quickly. It kind of felt

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Speaker 2: like a held breath in my home. The smallest things

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Speaker 2: could set him off, if, like we're driving, I'm in

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Speaker 2: the front seat with him, someone cuts him off like

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Speaker 2: that would send him into a blind rage. But also

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Speaker 2: just small things at home, like I would spill something

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Speaker 2: by accident, or my mom would make a mistake or

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Speaker 2: forget where her keys were, and just these tiny things

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Speaker 2: that didn't feel like a big deal, but they became

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Speaker 2: a really big deal.

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Speaker 1: I loved the complexity and nuance that you capture around

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Speaker 1: your relationship with your dad. You write in your book

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Speaker 1: that you had lots of loving, tender moments with your dad,

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Speaker 1: and you share it a lot in common, right, You

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Speaker 1: saw many parts of yourself on him, like your creative

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Speaker 1: side and what have you. And so tell me a

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Speaker 1: bit more about that part of the relationship with your dad.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, he was my best friend growing up. He was

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Speaker 2: so creative and very entrepreneurial in spirit, really silly. We

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Speaker 2: would just make each other laugh like such a quirky,

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Speaker 2: funny personality. Everyone would always tell us, Oh, you guys

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Speaker 2: are so similar. You guys are so similar in terms

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Speaker 2: of personality, And so we had a lot of fun moments.

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Speaker 2: But even as a child, I remember wishing that he

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Speaker 2: was all mean and all scary, because I remember thinking,

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Speaker 2: even that young, he's two people. He's my best friend,

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Speaker 2: and then he's the person who scares me more than anyone.

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Speaker 2: And I just wanted to kind of a side how

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Speaker 2: I felt it would just be easier. But life is

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Speaker 2: never so easy and simple. Yeah, but you're so.

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Speaker 1: Right, and I so resonate with especially as a young kid,

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Speaker 1: wanting to carve the world into the black and white

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Speaker 1: spaces and to make clear delineations between good and bad.

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Speaker 1: As you were navigating this very complex environment where there

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Speaker 1: was a lot of emotional volatility, how did you find

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Speaker 1: yourself responding to that.

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Speaker 2: I was just always watching him. I was always eyes

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Speaker 2: were always on him. Let him set the tone, let

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Speaker 2: him decide what this moment's going to be like. He

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Speaker 2: had the power and control to dictate how the room felt.

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Speaker 2: And if he's happy, then I can exhale and be

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Speaker 2: happy too, And if he's in a bad mood, I

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Speaker 2: will just course correct and act accordingly. But I blamed

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Speaker 2: myself for it, or I thought that it was my fault.

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Speaker 2: And for a child, it's like, what's the one thing

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Speaker 2: in my control? I'll never mess up, I'll never make

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Speaker 2: mistakes because if I'm perfect, there's nothing to criticize. It's

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Speaker 2: a preventative measure to take. I think my coping was

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Speaker 2: immediately correcting of like, are you mad at me? Am

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Speaker 2: I in trouble? Did I do something wrong? What can

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Speaker 2: I do? How can my actions appease you and soothe you?

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Speaker 2: And obviously this isn't a conscious thing that I'm thinking

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Speaker 2: about as a child, but it was just I think,

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Speaker 2: immediately course correcting so that I would be approved of

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Speaker 2: once again.

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Speaker 1: FIRSTP I so relate to this question are you mad

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Speaker 1: at me? I mean, I think maybe I've asked myself

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Speaker 1: that an infinite number of times Meg in my life.

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Speaker 2: You're not alone.

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Speaker 1: What was it about someone being mad at you that

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Speaker 1: carried so much power in young Meg's mind? Why was

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Speaker 1: it so significant to you?

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Speaker 2: I felt this my whole life, with friends, with teachers,

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Speaker 2: with my dad. If you're upset with me, I can't

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Speaker 2: feel okay until we're good again, Like I need to

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Speaker 2: know that you're not upset with me before I can

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Speaker 2: breathe again, because it's just so all consuming. He would yell,

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Speaker 2: or he would say really hurtful things or call me

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Speaker 2: something that was really hurtful, and there was no repair

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Speaker 2: after the fact. There was no hey, I'm so sorry

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Speaker 2: that that happened, and let's talk about it. It was

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Speaker 2: just I'd go downstairs and it's like, so, what about

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Speaker 2: for dinner? Or it's just awkward, and no one's acknowledging

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Speaker 2: what just happened. What ends up happening When we don't

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Speaker 2: receive that acknowledgment accountability repair, well, two things happened, we

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Speaker 2: start to blame ourselves. It goes from I did something

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Speaker 2: bad to make dad upset, and when that happens every

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Speaker 2: day or weekly or just frequently, I did something bad

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Speaker 2: to I am bad, and it cultivates this feeling of

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Speaker 2: something's wrong with me, I'm always in trouble, I'm secretly bad,

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Speaker 2: and it's just a matter of time before everyone finds out.

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Speaker 2: But then, also as adults, because we didn't witness that

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Speaker 2: coming back together after a conflict, we end up believing

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Speaker 2: when there's conflict, i e. When someone's mad at me,

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Speaker 2: the relationship's over, it's ruined. I will be abandoned. It's

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Speaker 2: so personal, it's a rejection of who I am. And

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Speaker 2: if being perfect and being good or being funny is

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Speaker 2: like a way to prevent that from happening, why wouldn't

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Speaker 2: we do that? And that's why I talk about people

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Speaker 2: pleasing as such a brilliant safety mechanism, because it's how

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Speaker 2: brilliant that as children we know how to do that,

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Speaker 2: and that we know to do it in the first place.

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Speaker 1: You talk in the book about how people pleasing can

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Speaker 1: be called a fond response for listeners who are not familiar.

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Speaker 1: Tell me more about what a fawn response is.

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Speaker 2: Yes, our body has what we know for responses to

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Speaker 2: a threat, fight or flight, which I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of us know freeze, and the fourth one is the

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Speaker 2: fawn response. What it means is when there is a threat,

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Speaker 2: whether that threat is real or perceived. So there's a

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Speaker 2: line in front of us, or our boss is being

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Speaker 2: a little cold or stand offish, and we're like, are

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Speaker 2: you madam, don't just me wrong? We appease the threat.

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Speaker 2: We try to be liked by it, we try to

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Speaker 2: impress it, satisfy it, diffuse conflict so that we can

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Speaker 2: go back to feeling safe. Sometimes we need to do this,

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Speaker 2: whether it's in childhood, whether it's to survive in the

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Speaker 2: oppressive systems that we're living within, whether it's to get

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Speaker 2: a paycheck. Sometimes we need to. It's not to say

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Speaker 2: we don't ever need this, but, like I was speaking

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Speaker 2: too earlier, if we're doing it all the time, if

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Speaker 2: we're doing it with our best friend when we don't

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Speaker 2: need to be, if we're doing it with a loving partner,

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Speaker 2: that's when it takes a toll body and becomes exhausting

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Speaker 2: and leads to burnout and resentment in our relationships, anxiety,

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Speaker 2: overthinking overall.

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Speaker 1: Can people think of it as just trying to do

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Speaker 1: or say whatever you feel will appease the other person?

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Speaker 1: How should I think about that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I think if it as an external piece and an

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Speaker 2: internal piece, the external being not setting boundaries, avoiding conflict

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Speaker 2: at all costs, saying yes when you want to say no,

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Speaker 2: contorting your opinions to match whoever you're with because you

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Speaker 2: just want to be liked by them or you don't

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Speaker 2: want them thinking you disagree silencing your needs, shoving your

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Speaker 2: feelings down. But then I also think there is an

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Speaker 2: internal element that's more secret and more private, which is

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Speaker 2: I find safety in pleasing you, and I find safety

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Speaker 2: in doing more and being liked. And in order to

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Speaker 2: do that, we have to abandon ourselves. In order for

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Speaker 2: us to be hypertuned to the person's facial reactions and

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Speaker 2: body language, we have to leave ourselves to successfully do that.

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Speaker 2: And so internally what ends up happening a lot. And

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Speaker 2: this is more something that I always felt kind of

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Speaker 2: weird in, but then when I became a therapist, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, other people feel this too, and so

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Speaker 2: that was a really illuminating experience for me. This overthinking

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Speaker 2: social reactions. Did I say the wrong thing? I can't

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Speaker 2: believe I did my joke not land, What did they

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Speaker 2: think of this? Should I apologize for this? Feeling like

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Speaker 2: we're always about to get in trouble, like we're bad,

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Speaker 2: wondering how are you mad at me? In our relationships,

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Speaker 2: replaying things again and again with the fun response, we

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Speaker 2: often feel like we can only show people the best,

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Speaker 2: most perfect version of ourselves, and so we feel like

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Speaker 2: we're often performing in our relationships, and that can feel

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Speaker 2: quite lonely. It can feel like am I fake?

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Speaker 1: Am I?

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Speaker 2: People don't really know me? I'm always keeping people at

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Speaker 2: a day stints, And it also leads us to feeling

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Speaker 2: like I don't know who I am. I don't know

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Speaker 2: what my preferences are. I don't know what my interests are.

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Speaker 2: What do I even think of this? What do I feel?

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Speaker 2: Because we've been trained to be hyper attuned to what

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Speaker 2: everyone else wants and thinks and feels and needs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm reflecting in this moment about how when I

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Speaker 1: was a little kid, I was bullied a lot, and

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Speaker 1: I absolutely engage in those interactions with a fund response.

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Speaker 1: I internalized the cruelty as evidence that I was broken

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Speaker 1: in some really deep way, and I remember thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to kill them with kindness, Like if

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Speaker 1: I'm just like extra nice to the mean girls, maybe

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Speaker 1: one day they'll like me. And I think you were

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Speaker 1: talking about losing yourself. I mean I when I reflect

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Speaker 1: back on the way I would interact with some of

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Speaker 1: my classmates, some of these girls in my neighborhood, there's

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Speaker 1: such a loss of self respect and dignity. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't even care in those moments about any kind

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Speaker 1: of pride or self respect. I was like, I will

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Speaker 1: do anything just to get these kids to like me back,

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Speaker 1: or to just stop being mean. And the last thought

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Speaker 1: on my mind was what does this do to my

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Speaker 1: sense of self?

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Speaker 2: Well, of course, and that makes so much sense. And

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Speaker 2: the fawn response is really common with bullying, it's really

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Speaker 2: common with abuse. And of course you're not, especially as

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Speaker 2: a child, you're not thinking about, well, what do I deserve?

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Speaker 2: Do I even like them? Of course you're not thinking

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Speaker 2: about that A because you're detecting a threat. Yes, And

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Speaker 2: there's no time to pause. When we are feeling in danger.

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Speaker 2: You're just going to appease. And if you were to fight,

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Speaker 2: flight or freeze at school, you'd probably get in trouble. Right.

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Speaker 2: It's the only threat response that we're not punished for,

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Speaker 2: which definitely reinforces the need to fawn in the first place.

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Speaker 2: But also, as children, our sense of belonging and safety

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Speaker 2: at school and at home is our entire world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you've written about different fond types. Can you walk

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Speaker 1: us through some of those?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have six archetypes, and so you might resonate

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Speaker 2: with all of them. You might see yourself more in

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Speaker 2: a few of them, but it's really just to illuminate, Oh,

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Speaker 2: this is how I have protected myself so that we

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Speaker 2: can understand it and begin to shed that identity in

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Speaker 2: many ways. So I have the peacekeeper, which definitely finds

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Speaker 2: the most safety in creating a harmonious environment and harmonious relationships,

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Speaker 2: whether that's being super hyper vigilant of what people are

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Speaker 2: feeling and needing, maybe it's killing them with kindness and

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Speaker 2: just harmony is the most important thing to a peacekeeper,

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Speaker 2: and those beliefs sort of manifest as other people's happiness

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Speaker 2: is my responsibility. I'm in charge of managing people's moods.

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Speaker 2: When someone's in a bad mood, it's my fault and

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Speaker 2: it's my responsibility to fix it. The performer is I

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Speaker 2: have this vignette of little boy who grew up with

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Speaker 2: really depressed parents, and he would find safety in just

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Speaker 2: being the really funny clown performing type and his job

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Speaker 2: was to make sure that everyone was happy. And so

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Speaker 2: as an adult, what that manifests as is I need

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Speaker 2: to always kind of be on I can't slip, but

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Speaker 2: also feeling like, oh my gosh, no one really knows

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Speaker 2: me because I'm only showing them this on version, I'm

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Speaker 2: only showing them this masking that happens. And then the caretaker,

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Speaker 2: which is fulfilling the parent role in some way, whether

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Speaker 2: that was you had a sibling who had a disability

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Speaker 2: or mental health issues or a parent who had those

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Speaker 2: struggles and you had to fulfill the parent role, whether

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Speaker 2: it was emotional, whether it was physically caretaking in some way,

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Speaker 2: whether your first generation of immigrant parents and you're going

285
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Speaker 2: with them to appointments as a child to help them translate.

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Speaker 2: You're taking on this parental role. The caretaker might be

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Speaker 2: drawn to people as adults who they kind of need

288
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Speaker 2: to mother or parent their partner in some way. Their

289
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Speaker 2: value is in being helpful and fixing and saving people.

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Speaker 1: So you just describe Meg peacekeeper, performer, and caretaker. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think I resonate most closely with peacekeeper. I will

292
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Speaker 1: insert myself into conversations that don't even involve me to

293
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Speaker 1: try to facilitate peace. If there is a lack of

294
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Speaker 1: peace between me and someone else, that's the sort of

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Speaker 1: thing that will keep me up at night and prevent

296
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Speaker 1: me from sleeping. Well, there's this urgency in my mind

297
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Speaker 1: that has to be resolved as quickly as possible. Which

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Speaker 1: ones of those three do you most identify with.

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Speaker 2: Everything you just said, every single piece I resonate with

300
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Speaker 2: so much. And what's so important to know and to

301
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Speaker 2: understand is number one. As an adult, when that's happening,

302
00:18:18,636 --> 00:18:21,036
Speaker 2: your body's remembering when you needed to do that, Like

303
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Speaker 2: your body is returning to that time in life when

304
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Speaker 2: there were major consequences if there wasn't peace, if you

305
00:18:27,756 --> 00:18:30,596
Speaker 2: weren't playing that role. So that younger version of you

306
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Speaker 2: that's trying to protect you and keep you safe is

307
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Speaker 2: still within you. Is Oh, time to wake up, time

308
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Speaker 2: to work hard and fix this situation. And when we

309
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Speaker 2: are in this state of survival mode in the fun response,

310
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Speaker 2: it is urgent, like if we were in danger, Urgency

311
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Speaker 2: is survival mode and slowness is safety. And so if

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Speaker 2: we are detecting some sort of threat and we're reacting

313
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Speaker 2: very urgently, this has to be addressed immediately. It's such

314
00:19:04,276 --> 00:19:07,676
Speaker 2: a sign that there is some dysregulation happening. Our body

315
00:19:07,756 --> 00:19:10,596
Speaker 2: is entering into a state of sval mode. That's why

316
00:19:10,636 --> 00:19:14,476
Speaker 2: it's so incredible our awareness when we can be aware

317
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Speaker 2: of this as it's happening and slow ourselves down with

318
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Speaker 2: our breath, with any grounding technique that feels soothing to ourselves.

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Speaker 2: We're communicating to our bodies that we're safe, because if

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Speaker 2: we were actually in danger, there wouldn't be time to

321
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Speaker 2: take three breaths before responding to the text.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it crazy how all consuming the are you mad

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Speaker 1: at me? Refrain can be for people that really don't

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Speaker 1: matter to us. I mean, I just have to put

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Speaker 1: that out there. It drives me crazy, Meg, because the

326
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Speaker 1: concern that someone's mad at me will completely hijack my brain.

327
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Speaker 1: I will come to feel that that person is the

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Speaker 1: most important person in the world, and then I'll reflect

329
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Speaker 1: on it for a moment and be like, what are

330
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Speaker 1: you doing? Get a grip. It's misallocating importance to relationships

331
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Speaker 1: that truly should not matter. Because the fear of not

332
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Speaker 1: being liked or approved of is such a threat.

333
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Speaker 2: You're speaking to it perfectly. Because threats are black or white.

334
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Speaker 2: When we're in survival mode, we're safe or we're not.

335
00:20:22,476 --> 00:20:25,316
Speaker 2: It's good or it's bad. We're in danger or we're not.

336
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Speaker 2: It is all or nothing, and so when we're in

337
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Speaker 2: survival mode, there's no room for nuance. There's no room

338
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Speaker 2: for how much do I value this relationship? Is it

339
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Speaker 2: actually okay if this person perceives me in a way

340
00:20:36,476 --> 00:20:39,956
Speaker 2: that I don't agree with, knowing that we cannot take

341
00:20:40,076 --> 00:20:43,276
Speaker 2: in that much information, If we were taking in everyone's

342
00:20:43,316 --> 00:20:46,556
Speaker 2: feedback to us, we would be a million people because

343
00:20:46,596 --> 00:20:50,236
Speaker 2: everyone's going to have a different take. But actually, reflecting

344
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Speaker 2: on I'm working so hard to gain this person's approval.

345
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Speaker 2: Is this someone I look up to? Is this someone

346
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Speaker 2: that I really want to embody the qualities that they have?

347
00:21:00,916 --> 00:21:03,836
Speaker 1: And is this person someone who's even treated me well?

348
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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's been the most devastating part.

349
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Speaker 1: I'm just reflecting on an incident earlier this year where

350
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Speaker 1: I was just viving sort of the contours of this

351
00:21:12,116 --> 00:21:14,596
Speaker 1: relationship that again shouldn't matter. I was talking about it

352
00:21:14,636 --> 00:21:17,236
Speaker 1: with my husband, and my husband was like, Maya, this

353
00:21:17,436 --> 00:21:22,236
Speaker 1: person has not treated you well. Yeah, like he could

354
00:21:22,276 --> 00:21:26,676
Speaker 1: see it so clearly. This person was actually out of

355
00:21:26,836 --> 00:21:29,876
Speaker 1: line in terms of the way they engage with you

356
00:21:30,356 --> 00:21:33,156
Speaker 1: and the lack of respect they showed you. And yet

357
00:21:33,196 --> 00:21:35,316
Speaker 1: you're willing to throw your self respect out the door

358
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Speaker 1: just to get them to like you back. And it

359
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Speaker 1: was a meaningful moment for me because I just hadn't

360
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Speaker 1: heard someone say so clearly to me, you should respect

361
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Speaker 1: yourself more than this.

362
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Speaker 2: You're really speaking to the heart of the faun response,

363
00:21:49,476 --> 00:21:54,556
Speaker 2: which is kind of like befriending our bullies and leaning

364
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Speaker 2: into people that feel threatening. That's really what the faun

365
00:22:01,396 --> 00:22:05,916
Speaker 2: response is. It's going further into people that are unavailable

366
00:22:06,116 --> 00:22:10,556
Speaker 2: or critical. That feels, first of ball, like home in

367
00:22:10,676 --> 00:22:13,316
Speaker 2: some way. Okay, I need to work hard for me

368
00:22:13,436 --> 00:22:17,556
Speaker 2: to be loved. Yes, familiar feel safe to us. And

369
00:22:17,716 --> 00:22:20,196
Speaker 2: so even if it's a relationship, if you're like trying

370
00:22:20,236 --> 00:22:24,636
Speaker 2: to befriend someone who's not nice to you, that familiarity

371
00:22:24,716 --> 00:22:28,396
Speaker 2: feels comforting. Even if intellectually we know it's not a

372
00:22:28,436 --> 00:22:31,076
Speaker 2: good relationship for us, if it's what we've known in

373
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Speaker 2: our parental relationships or a past romantic relationship, there's some

374
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Speaker 2: piece that feel safe because it's what we know, and

375
00:22:39,876 --> 00:22:42,876
Speaker 2: so it reminds us of this original hurtful relationship, and

376
00:22:42,916 --> 00:22:45,676
Speaker 2: there's a part of us that believes, if I can

377
00:22:45,916 --> 00:22:47,996
Speaker 2: just fix this, if I can be enough for this

378
00:22:48,236 --> 00:22:52,196
Speaker 2: person that's not nice to me, then it'll fix and

379
00:22:52,356 --> 00:22:56,596
Speaker 2: heal this core hurtful relationship we were re enacting the

380
00:22:56,676 --> 00:22:59,596
Speaker 2: wound so that we can finally fix it. And of

381
00:22:59,676 --> 00:23:01,516
Speaker 2: course we're never going to be good enough for the

382
00:23:01,596 --> 00:23:04,996
Speaker 2: people that aren't right for us. Yeah, yeah, exactly, But

383
00:23:05,596 --> 00:23:08,276
Speaker 2: that's the faun response, is leaning in to a threat.

384
00:23:08,436 --> 00:23:11,396
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love what you just said, and I love

385
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Speaker 1: to hear about the three other types of fun responses. Yes,

386
00:23:14,436 --> 00:23:19,036
Speaker 1: so we've got perfectionist, chameleon and lone wolf, and I

387
00:23:19,116 --> 00:23:24,316
Speaker 1: can already say chameleon is my jam Oh? Yeah, do

388
00:23:24,436 --> 00:23:26,596
Speaker 1: I have a personality or do I just be no

389
00:23:27,116 --> 00:23:28,196
Speaker 1: what other people want me to be?

390
00:23:28,276 --> 00:23:31,876
Speaker 2: In that moment, you are not alone. The chameleon really

391
00:23:32,276 --> 00:23:37,676
Speaker 2: morphs themselves to fit in with whoever they're with, And

392
00:23:37,756 --> 00:23:40,436
Speaker 2: I think that's really we have to in many ways,

393
00:23:40,476 --> 00:23:43,076
Speaker 2: like how you are with your boss will be different

394
00:23:43,156 --> 00:23:45,876
Speaker 2: from with your best friend. But the chameleon is doing

395
00:23:45,956 --> 00:23:48,476
Speaker 2: this in all of their relationships, feeling like I don't

396
00:23:48,516 --> 00:23:51,796
Speaker 2: know who I am? And I write about this myself personally,

397
00:23:51,876 --> 00:23:54,756
Speaker 2: of like graduating college and I remember wondering, am I

398
00:23:54,836 --> 00:23:57,196
Speaker 2: just a medley of other people's personalities?

399
00:23:57,276 --> 00:23:57,316
Speaker 1: Like?

400
00:23:57,956 --> 00:24:00,316
Speaker 2: Am I just? Who am I? Who am I? When

401
00:24:00,316 --> 00:24:04,356
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to please other people? Perfectionist I find

402
00:24:04,396 --> 00:24:06,596
Speaker 2: safety in being perfect. I need to be perfect in

403
00:24:06,716 --> 00:24:09,236
Speaker 2: order to be loved, and the perfectionist often fine and

404
00:24:09,876 --> 00:24:14,996
Speaker 2: safety through achievement through external validation. People viewing you as

405
00:24:15,156 --> 00:24:18,316
Speaker 2: perfect doesn't matter if you know you're not. As long

406
00:24:18,356 --> 00:24:21,036
Speaker 2: as other people think you're perfect, we're good. That's really

407
00:24:21,356 --> 00:24:24,516
Speaker 2: the heart of the perfectionist. And then the lone wolf

408
00:24:25,036 --> 00:24:27,996
Speaker 2: is the last archetype. The lone wolf silences their needs

409
00:24:28,116 --> 00:24:34,636
Speaker 2: by disappearing and isolating and pulling away because my needs

410
00:24:34,636 --> 00:24:37,756
Speaker 2: are so meaningless that I'm just going to be so

411
00:24:38,116 --> 00:24:42,636
Speaker 2: easy and not inconvenient to you, So that lone wolf

412
00:24:42,756 --> 00:24:45,796
Speaker 2: craves deep connection but would rather be alone than be

413
00:24:45,916 --> 00:24:47,236
Speaker 2: disappointed or let down.

414
00:24:47,796 --> 00:24:51,476
Speaker 1: I'm so glad we talked about lone wolf, because I

415
00:24:51,636 --> 00:24:56,356
Speaker 1: think I have misperceived the internal state of someone who's

416
00:24:56,396 --> 00:24:59,956
Speaker 1: expressed this sort of lone wolf fawn response, and I've

417
00:24:59,996 --> 00:25:04,556
Speaker 1: mistaken it for apathy for not caring about the relationship

418
00:25:04,596 --> 00:25:07,036
Speaker 1: with me. I think you're helping to build my empathy,

419
00:25:07,036 --> 00:25:10,836
Speaker 1: which is sometimes when someone retreats or doesn't want to engage,

420
00:25:10,876 --> 00:25:14,756
Speaker 1: it's actually not because they don't care. They just don't

421
00:25:14,756 --> 00:25:21,036
Speaker 1: think they're worthy enough to actively engage with the repair required, Yes, yes.

422
00:25:21,036 --> 00:25:23,556
Speaker 2: And maybe that lone wolf feels a little bit of

423
00:25:23,636 --> 00:25:27,756
Speaker 2: those perfectionistic tendencies of I can't be seen in my messiness,

424
00:25:27,956 --> 00:25:32,316
Speaker 2: I can't be seen needing help, And so often that

425
00:25:32,476 --> 00:25:35,036
Speaker 2: lone wolf has asked for help and has been let down,

426
00:25:35,676 --> 00:25:37,836
Speaker 2: And so it's so much safer than to have no

427
00:25:38,036 --> 00:25:40,556
Speaker 2: needs than to be let down again. Yeah.

428
00:25:41,316 --> 00:25:45,516
Speaker 1: As you've mentioned, fawning is an adaptive human trait. There

429
00:25:45,636 --> 00:25:48,636
Speaker 1: are environments in which it is actually necessary to engage

430
00:25:48,676 --> 00:25:51,756
Speaker 1: in a fawn response in order to survive, or to

431
00:25:52,436 --> 00:25:56,196
Speaker 1: maintain your job, or to help make peace with a relative.

432
00:25:56,716 --> 00:26:00,556
Speaker 1: But what are the harmful effects when fawning has gone

433
00:26:00,596 --> 00:26:04,156
Speaker 1: too far? When it becomes to define our response in

434
00:26:04,276 --> 00:26:06,676
Speaker 1: terms of both our individual well being and then the

435
00:26:06,756 --> 00:26:08,076
Speaker 1: impact on our relationships.

436
00:26:08,676 --> 00:26:12,676
Speaker 2: For our our relationships, when we are constantly avoiding conflict,

437
00:26:13,156 --> 00:26:18,156
Speaker 2: when we are constantly avoiding uncomfortable conversations or disappearing in

438
00:26:18,236 --> 00:26:21,156
Speaker 2: the other persons we don't disagree with them, or so

439
00:26:21,236 --> 00:26:24,356
Speaker 2: they don't think we disagree with them, it can keep

440
00:26:24,476 --> 00:26:26,436
Speaker 2: our relationships at quite a distance.

441
00:26:26,916 --> 00:26:29,756
Speaker 1: Or, by the way, Meg, when we're smothering them, oh,

442
00:26:29,916 --> 00:26:34,236
Speaker 1: because we're desperate for resolution. Both I'm speaking on behalf

443
00:26:34,276 --> 00:26:35,436
Speaker 1: of a friend here, don't mind me.

444
00:26:35,516 --> 00:26:38,836
Speaker 2: Yeah hypothetically, of course, this is super hypothetical. So there's

445
00:26:38,876 --> 00:26:42,356
Speaker 2: two extreme sort of reassurance seeking. Constantly are you mad

446
00:26:42,436 --> 00:26:45,676
Speaker 2: at me? We're scraping over kind of the content of

447
00:26:45,836 --> 00:26:50,716
Speaker 2: life and we're not really getting to the emotion beneath it.

448
00:26:51,356 --> 00:26:53,956
Speaker 2: It can put quite a strain on our relationships to

449
00:26:54,076 --> 00:26:56,996
Speaker 2: be on the receiving end of that, because reassurance seeking

450
00:26:57,116 --> 00:27:01,516
Speaker 2: is quite addictive. It's like, no, I'm not mad at you. Oh, few, okay,

451
00:27:01,556 --> 00:27:05,476
Speaker 2: we're good, And then because that emotion wasn't addressed, it

452
00:27:05,716 --> 00:27:08,636
Speaker 2: slowly comes back and then we maybe we ask for

453
00:27:08,716 --> 00:27:13,236
Speaker 2: rasure again because it feels good to be told no,

454
00:27:13,396 --> 00:27:15,276
Speaker 2: I'm not. But when the other person starts to get

455
00:27:15,316 --> 00:27:18,036
Speaker 2: annoyed at that, then maybe they start getting irritable, and

456
00:27:18,076 --> 00:27:20,876
Speaker 2: then it triggers that part even more. Oh gosh, they're

457
00:27:20,916 --> 00:27:21,316
Speaker 2: mad at me.

458
00:27:21,516 --> 00:27:24,476
Speaker 1: Yeah, ironically, you might actually make them mad with all

459
00:27:24,516 --> 00:27:27,476
Speaker 1: the pestering about whether they're mad at you exactly.

460
00:27:27,596 --> 00:27:30,436
Speaker 2: So it can push people away, which triggers us to

461
00:27:30,676 --> 00:27:33,796
Speaker 2: lean in more, and it becomes this cycle of that.

462
00:27:34,396 --> 00:27:36,516
Speaker 2: And then the other cycle that happens is if we

463
00:27:36,636 --> 00:27:42,036
Speaker 2: are avoiding conflict. So maybe someone is saying there's some

464
00:27:42,156 --> 00:27:45,556
Speaker 2: resentment in the relationship. You've been silencing your needs. Maybe

465
00:27:45,556 --> 00:27:48,116
Speaker 2: you've just been giving a lot in a friendship and

466
00:27:48,196 --> 00:27:52,236
Speaker 2: it hasn't been feeling reciprocal, and so you're starting to

467
00:27:52,276 --> 00:27:54,796
Speaker 2: feel resentful. You're feeling like your needs aren't being met,

468
00:27:54,876 --> 00:27:56,476
Speaker 2: but you don't want to bring it up because then

469
00:27:56,556 --> 00:27:59,356
Speaker 2: you have a conversation about it and that feels way

470
00:27:59,436 --> 00:28:03,796
Speaker 2: too scary. What ends up happening is, ironically, to keep

471
00:28:03,836 --> 00:28:09,316
Speaker 2: the peace, we end up creating war within ourselves and

472
00:28:09,516 --> 00:28:12,316
Speaker 2: keeping people at a distance because we're not letting people

473
00:28:12,436 --> 00:28:15,516
Speaker 2: in on what we need, and so in order to

474
00:28:15,596 --> 00:28:20,916
Speaker 2: keep the p short term, we prioritize avoiding discomfort. What

475
00:28:21,076 --> 00:28:24,316
Speaker 2: ends up happening is that resentment festers and it builds,

476
00:28:25,196 --> 00:28:28,636
Speaker 2: and so we end up long term, actually creating a

477
00:28:28,676 --> 00:28:31,796
Speaker 2: lot more suffering in that relationship because we're so resentful

478
00:28:31,836 --> 00:28:34,476
Speaker 2: and we're so annoyed, and we're fake having fake arguments

479
00:28:34,556 --> 00:28:37,876
Speaker 2: in the shower with this person because we just won't

480
00:28:38,036 --> 00:28:41,356
Speaker 2: tell them how we're feeling. On the flip side, when

481
00:28:41,356 --> 00:28:46,316
Speaker 2: we're able to have honest conversations with safe, healthy relationships

482
00:28:46,356 --> 00:28:49,036
Speaker 2: in our lives, we actually are showing them. This is

483
00:28:49,076 --> 00:28:51,156
Speaker 2: how I can be in relationship to you long term.

484
00:28:52,116 --> 00:28:54,316
Speaker 2: I'm letting you in on what I need and what

485
00:28:54,396 --> 00:28:56,476
Speaker 2: I'm feeling. And that is such a form of emotional

486
00:28:56,516 --> 00:28:59,596
Speaker 2: intimacy because it means that I trust you. It means

487
00:28:59,636 --> 00:29:02,436
Speaker 2: that I'm showing you the messy parts of me so

488
00:29:02,716 --> 00:29:06,996
Speaker 2: that we can be in a relationship forever. An emphasis

489
00:29:07,076 --> 00:29:10,316
Speaker 2: on safe, healthy relationships because you might be the thinking, well, hello,

490
00:29:10,676 --> 00:29:13,956
Speaker 2: I cannot have an honest conversation with my volatile parent

491
00:29:14,636 --> 00:29:18,036
Speaker 2: or this friend that I'm thinking of. And so that's

492
00:29:18,076 --> 00:29:21,396
Speaker 2: why I always like to say with being honest, with

493
00:29:21,596 --> 00:29:25,076
Speaker 2: letting people in on healing the fun response in our relationships,

494
00:29:25,436 --> 00:29:28,516
Speaker 2: we're either going to have more closeness or we're going

495
00:29:28,556 --> 00:29:30,876
Speaker 2: to have more clarity. If we can't have closeness with

496
00:29:30,956 --> 00:29:33,436
Speaker 2: the other person because they're defensive, they don't want to

497
00:29:33,676 --> 00:29:36,436
Speaker 2: listen to you, you're going to have clarity about what

498
00:29:36,516 --> 00:29:38,516
Speaker 2: you can expect from them. You're going to have clarity

499
00:29:38,556 --> 00:29:40,116
Speaker 2: and maybe on what you need to grieve in the

500
00:29:40,236 --> 00:29:44,476
Speaker 2: relationship in order to move forward. And either way there's

501
00:29:44,516 --> 00:29:45,396
Speaker 2: something to gain there.

502
00:29:45,556 --> 00:29:49,956
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I mean another downside, irrespective of what

503
00:29:50,196 --> 00:29:52,756
Speaker 1: kind of fun response you have is that in all cases,

504
00:29:53,956 --> 00:29:57,996
Speaker 1: some significant fraction of your perception of your self worth

505
00:29:58,116 --> 00:30:01,796
Speaker 1: and your value in that moment hinges upon another person

506
00:30:02,316 --> 00:30:05,756
Speaker 1: and their approval of you. And that's a very precarious

507
00:30:05,876 --> 00:30:07,996
Speaker 1: position to put ourselves in routinely.

508
00:30:08,396 --> 00:30:11,636
Speaker 2: Yeah, we spend so much energy trying to control what

509
00:30:11,756 --> 00:30:14,116
Speaker 2: people are thinking about us, but it was never in

510
00:30:14,196 --> 00:30:17,916
Speaker 2: our control in the first place. But recognizing we're all

511
00:30:17,996 --> 00:30:21,116
Speaker 2: seeing the world through the lens of our own inner world,

512
00:30:21,316 --> 00:30:24,516
Speaker 2: which is made up of our fears and beliefs and insecurities,

513
00:30:24,636 --> 00:30:27,316
Speaker 2: and no matter how perfect we are, we're still going

514
00:30:27,356 --> 00:30:30,556
Speaker 2: to be perceived through the lens of their inner world,

515
00:30:30,596 --> 00:30:33,756
Speaker 2: which is not in our control. And that's super uncomfortable

516
00:30:34,636 --> 00:30:37,276
Speaker 2: truth to grapple with and is much easier talked about

517
00:30:37,356 --> 00:30:38,316
Speaker 2: than integrate it.

518
00:30:40,716 --> 00:30:43,436
Speaker 1: After the break, Meg and I discuss how to tame

519
00:30:43,556 --> 00:30:46,516
Speaker 1: our inner people. Pleaser, We'll be back in a moment

520
00:30:46,756 --> 00:31:07,276
Speaker 1: with a slight change of plans. You know you had

521
00:31:07,316 --> 00:31:09,516
Speaker 1: spent so much of your life in gaging in the

522
00:31:09,556 --> 00:31:13,676
Speaker 1: fond response. When did you realize that you needed to

523
00:31:14,596 --> 00:31:18,156
Speaker 1: revisit this part of yourself because it was bad for you?

524
00:31:19,156 --> 00:31:22,436
Speaker 2: Hm? While I was in college. I think that was

525
00:31:22,516 --> 00:31:26,596
Speaker 2: a turning point in recognizing, Okay, I'm no longer living

526
00:31:26,636 --> 00:31:30,996
Speaker 2: in this environment where being so hypervigilant is necessary. Of course,

527
00:31:31,036 --> 00:31:34,356
Speaker 2: I was still in relationship to my parents, but my

528
00:31:34,556 --> 00:31:37,476
Speaker 2: environment was different. It was in this time of my

529
00:31:37,596 --> 00:31:40,116
Speaker 2: life where I feel like I started to see that

530
00:31:40,516 --> 00:31:44,756
Speaker 2: voice in my head that was so rooted in anxiety

531
00:31:44,996 --> 00:31:50,196
Speaker 2: and fearful, catastrophic thinking, blaming myself and being self critical.

532
00:31:50,476 --> 00:31:53,036
Speaker 2: And once I was no longer in the environment where

533
00:31:53,076 --> 00:31:57,196
Speaker 2: it was so necessary, my baseline was just so unlivable

534
00:31:57,876 --> 00:32:01,676
Speaker 2: that that for me was the turning point. It's interesting

535
00:32:01,756 --> 00:32:05,396
Speaker 2: because I met my husband young. We were nineteen when

536
00:32:05,436 --> 00:32:07,196
Speaker 2: we met, we were in college, and we've been together

537
00:32:07,276 --> 00:32:11,316
Speaker 2: ever since. He's a good example of him challenging that

538
00:32:11,476 --> 00:32:16,116
Speaker 2: belief where he is so steady, he is unconditional on

539
00:32:16,196 --> 00:32:19,476
Speaker 2: his love. He feels so safe, like just true safety

540
00:32:19,556 --> 00:32:24,956
Speaker 2: as a person, and meeting him so young confused me.

541
00:32:24,996 --> 00:32:27,276
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't deserve this. I need to fix

542
00:32:27,396 --> 00:32:29,356
Speaker 2: myself first in order to be worthy of this.

543
00:32:30,396 --> 00:32:30,796
Speaker 3: But I.

544
00:32:32,516 --> 00:32:36,156
Speaker 2: Felt sort of split in two, like my intuitive voice

545
00:32:36,436 --> 00:32:38,756
Speaker 2: was saying, yes, this is right, this feels safe, but

546
00:32:38,836 --> 00:32:43,116
Speaker 2: then my wounded voice was like, this isn't what I know.

547
00:32:43,516 --> 00:32:45,756
Speaker 2: Like I remember having these thoughts of like, just wait,

548
00:32:46,036 --> 00:32:48,316
Speaker 2: he's going to flip. He's going to be someone that

549
00:32:48,836 --> 00:32:51,196
Speaker 2: you can't expect. Or he'll come home drunk one night

550
00:32:51,276 --> 00:32:53,116
Speaker 2: and something horrible will happen and the.

551
00:32:53,116 --> 00:32:53,836
Speaker 1: Shoe will drop.

552
00:32:54,276 --> 00:32:56,836
Speaker 2: The shoe will drop exactly. And so I think that's

553
00:32:56,916 --> 00:33:00,396
Speaker 2: kind of a flipped example of like someone who felt

554
00:33:00,436 --> 00:33:04,996
Speaker 2: really safe and that felt really confusing to me. And

555
00:33:05,116 --> 00:33:10,836
Speaker 2: even still, I sometimes get pulled into friendships where they're

556
00:33:11,396 --> 00:33:14,196
Speaker 2: pulling back or they're hard to please, and so I

557
00:33:14,316 --> 00:33:17,716
Speaker 2: find myself having this pull toward them. I'll catch it,

558
00:33:18,316 --> 00:33:20,636
Speaker 2: and the prompt I usually like to guide myself there

559
00:33:20,756 --> 00:33:22,716
Speaker 2: is like what draws me to this person? Do I

560
00:33:22,836 --> 00:33:26,436
Speaker 2: lean in more the more they pull back? Yeah, okay,

561
00:33:26,556 --> 00:33:30,156
Speaker 2: that's probably a sign I'm reacting from a past, wounded place.

562
00:33:31,156 --> 00:33:34,116
Speaker 2: Having awareness of these patterns is everything. We're still going

563
00:33:34,196 --> 00:33:36,756
Speaker 2: to have these reactions, yeah, but when we can be

564
00:33:36,876 --> 00:33:39,996
Speaker 2: aware of them and insert a pause and be curious

565
00:33:40,076 --> 00:33:43,156
Speaker 2: about it, what's happening here, that's the healing. So we're

566
00:33:43,196 --> 00:33:47,236
Speaker 2: not expecting ourselves to never be drawn to these relationships again,

567
00:33:47,516 --> 00:33:49,236
Speaker 2: but to be conscious of when we are.

568
00:33:49,636 --> 00:33:52,076
Speaker 1: Yeah. I find that this plays out a lot in

569
00:33:52,196 --> 00:33:54,796
Speaker 1: my professional life. When it comes to you and a

570
00:33:54,916 --> 00:33:58,516
Speaker 1: manager or some leader, there is an inbuilt power dynamic

571
00:33:58,636 --> 00:34:01,916
Speaker 1: and it is their job actually to be critical and

572
00:34:02,156 --> 00:34:06,036
Speaker 1: to have tough conversations with you, and to maybe be

573
00:34:06,156 --> 00:34:08,076
Speaker 1: a bit unavailable because you don't have that kind of

574
00:34:08,156 --> 00:34:10,396
Speaker 1: emotional closeness that you might with a friend or a

575
00:34:10,476 --> 00:34:14,676
Speaker 1: family member. So there's one story from your book that

576
00:34:14,836 --> 00:34:17,756
Speaker 1: I was just like cheering out loud because I was like, yes, nag, preach.

577
00:34:18,236 --> 00:34:21,476
Speaker 1: Were you talked about an interaction that you'd had with

578
00:34:21,556 --> 00:34:24,476
Speaker 1: your boss over slack and it was so relatable.

579
00:34:24,876 --> 00:34:27,196
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I could have written an entire chapter

580
00:34:27,276 --> 00:34:34,076
Speaker 2: about this topic of boss mirroring caregiver attachment. But I

581
00:34:34,156 --> 00:34:36,516
Speaker 2: remember it was my first job out of college, and

582
00:34:37,396 --> 00:34:40,356
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm terrified of authority. I'm so scared of

583
00:34:40,436 --> 00:34:43,916
Speaker 2: getting in trouble and getting a message from my boss

584
00:34:44,116 --> 00:34:46,516
Speaker 2: saying can we chat or do you have a second

585
00:34:46,556 --> 00:34:49,676
Speaker 2: whatever they said, and just this immediate sinking feeling in

586
00:34:49,756 --> 00:34:52,916
Speaker 2: my stomach of I'm about to get fired, I'm in trouble.

587
00:34:53,476 --> 00:34:56,396
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, who knows what's about to happen? And

588
00:34:56,516 --> 00:34:58,956
Speaker 2: of course, I probably walk in and it's like, oh,

589
00:34:59,076 --> 00:35:01,596
Speaker 2: so are you able to take on this? It's like

590
00:35:01,836 --> 00:35:06,956
Speaker 2: just a mundane ask, absolutely, but just this sinking feeling

591
00:35:08,156 --> 00:35:10,276
Speaker 2: of it's just it's a matter of time before I

592
00:35:10,356 --> 00:35:14,156
Speaker 2: get in big trouble. And obviously, okay, we don't have

593
00:35:14,236 --> 00:35:16,116
Speaker 2: to reach too far for like where that comes from.

594
00:35:16,476 --> 00:35:19,796
Speaker 2: But I think this parallel of boss and caregiver is

595
00:35:19,836 --> 00:35:24,396
Speaker 2: so important because there are some similarities. Number One, there's

596
00:35:24,396 --> 00:35:28,596
Speaker 2: an authoritative figure. Okay, both are authoritative. Number Two, they

597
00:35:28,716 --> 00:35:33,156
Speaker 2: both are providing a sense of security and steadiness in

598
00:35:33,196 --> 00:35:37,916
Speaker 2: our lives. We need a paycheck to feed ourselves into

599
00:35:37,996 --> 00:35:40,516
Speaker 2: pay rent. And in the same way, we need a

600
00:35:40,556 --> 00:35:44,796
Speaker 2: caregiver to be fed and to be taken care of

601
00:35:45,236 --> 00:35:47,636
Speaker 2: and to have a roof over our heads. And so

602
00:35:48,676 --> 00:35:51,516
Speaker 2: when we are having anxiety with a boss and getting

603
00:35:51,516 --> 00:35:54,436
Speaker 2: in trouble, I think in many ways, this younger version

604
00:35:54,516 --> 00:35:57,436
Speaker 2: is remembering how did I have to appease and act

605
00:35:57,556 --> 00:36:02,116
Speaker 2: in order to satisfy my parent so that I could

606
00:36:02,156 --> 00:36:05,956
Speaker 2: be safe. Because it's a very similar power dynamic at play,

607
00:36:06,996 --> 00:36:09,756
Speaker 2: And it's a great example of yeah, yeah, sometimes we

608
00:36:09,876 --> 00:36:13,276
Speaker 2: need to because again, like we live, we live in capitalism,

609
00:36:13,356 --> 00:36:16,916
Speaker 2: we have to survive. Yeah, but managing that anxiety, I

610
00:36:16,956 --> 00:36:18,116
Speaker 2: think is what's in our control.

611
00:36:18,316 --> 00:36:21,556
Speaker 1: I think the most vicious message a boss can send

612
00:36:21,876 --> 00:36:26,276
Speaker 1: is capital Hey, period, horrible, the meanest thing. I mean,

613
00:36:26,516 --> 00:36:27,756
Speaker 1: would you just like to put me down?

614
00:36:28,676 --> 00:36:29,596
Speaker 2: Two week notice, I'll do it.

615
00:36:29,676 --> 00:36:32,156
Speaker 1: There's nothing after that's just hate. Period. And then right

616
00:36:32,196 --> 00:36:34,716
Speaker 1: back you're like, hey, I'm available two minutes. You not

617
00:36:34,836 --> 00:36:36,836
Speaker 1: to have this conversation, and then they don't respond for

618
00:36:36,876 --> 00:36:39,316
Speaker 1: a while, and then later they're like, you know what, yeah, Maya,

619
00:36:39,316 --> 00:36:41,556
Speaker 1: I'm actually signing off for the weekend. Why don't we

620
00:36:41,716 --> 00:36:42,476
Speaker 1: chat Monday?

621
00:36:42,756 --> 00:36:46,356
Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, oh my god, my palms are sweating.

622
00:36:46,396 --> 00:36:48,796
Speaker 1: Yeah, you ruined my life and I will not be

623
00:36:48,916 --> 00:36:51,596
Speaker 1: having a week end, thank you very much. I will

624
00:36:51,636 --> 00:36:53,396
Speaker 1: be thinking about this forever.

625
00:36:54,236 --> 00:36:56,476
Speaker 2: And there's that urgency like we got to talk about

626
00:36:56,516 --> 00:36:59,156
Speaker 2: it now because I will not be okay until we're

627
00:36:59,276 --> 00:37:01,436
Speaker 2: okay exactly okay.

628
00:37:01,636 --> 00:37:05,556
Speaker 1: So Meg, for those of us who instinctively meet moments

629
00:37:05,676 --> 00:37:08,476
Speaker 1: like this one with a fawn response, what does it

630
00:37:08,596 --> 00:37:11,956
Speaker 1: look like to actually shift this pattern within ourselves?

631
00:37:12,836 --> 00:37:16,036
Speaker 2: Healing really starts with awareness and that these are unconscious

632
00:37:16,076 --> 00:37:18,956
Speaker 2: patterns that are happening. We've been doing this for decades.

633
00:37:19,156 --> 00:37:24,796
Speaker 2: Probably it's happening unconsciously reactively, so by being aware of it,

634
00:37:24,956 --> 00:37:28,796
Speaker 2: by pausing, by slowing down, we're bringing this unconscious pattern

635
00:37:28,916 --> 00:37:32,756
Speaker 2: into the conscious mind. We can't change anything until that's happened,

636
00:37:33,276 --> 00:37:37,236
Speaker 2: until we are inserting a pause before we react and

637
00:37:37,396 --> 00:37:41,276
Speaker 2: maybe trying something new, and maybe we're still fawning and reacting,

638
00:37:41,596 --> 00:37:44,596
Speaker 2: but even pausing afterward and looking back at like why

639
00:37:44,676 --> 00:37:47,596
Speaker 2: did I apologize or why did I say yes when

640
00:37:47,636 --> 00:37:49,396
Speaker 2: I really didn't want to do that, Even if it's

641
00:37:49,436 --> 00:37:53,076
Speaker 2: after the fact, that's still awareness. I also view another

642
00:37:53,196 --> 00:37:57,716
Speaker 2: really important pillar of healing the fun response is slowly

643
00:37:57,836 --> 00:38:03,116
Speaker 2: and safely increasing our tolerance for discomfort, discomfort within ourselves,

644
00:38:03,716 --> 00:38:08,196
Speaker 2: being with our anxiety, being with our anger, being with

645
00:38:08,316 --> 00:38:13,436
Speaker 2: our resentment, and also being with discomfort in our relationships,

646
00:38:14,356 --> 00:38:18,556
Speaker 2: Practicing being more honest and direct in our relationships, practicing

647
00:38:18,796 --> 00:38:25,276
Speaker 2: saying no, and I say slowly and safely with such intentionality,

648
00:38:25,356 --> 00:38:27,556
Speaker 2: Because if you were to try to set a boundary

649
00:38:27,596 --> 00:38:29,236
Speaker 2: and the first one you've ever said in your life

650
00:38:29,356 --> 00:38:33,636
Speaker 2: is with your volatile parent, that's not going to go well, right,

651
00:38:34,076 --> 00:38:37,716
Speaker 2: and that's going to feel like a shock to the body.

652
00:38:37,796 --> 00:38:40,716
Speaker 2: The body's going to be like, what was that? This

653
00:38:40,916 --> 00:38:43,076
Speaker 2: is why I fond? What are we doing? Take me

654
00:38:43,196 --> 00:38:46,436
Speaker 2: back to what I know? And so let's not do that.

655
00:38:46,996 --> 00:38:50,076
Speaker 2: It's more slowly increasing our tolerance so that we can

656
00:38:50,676 --> 00:38:53,436
Speaker 2: be uncomfortable but still safe at the same time.

657
00:38:53,636 --> 00:38:58,036
Speaker 1: Yeah, what does it look like to slowly build tolerance

658
00:38:58,116 --> 00:38:58,796
Speaker 1: for discomfort?

659
00:38:59,196 --> 00:39:02,316
Speaker 2: So let's say this friend isn't texting you back, and

660
00:39:02,436 --> 00:39:05,676
Speaker 2: then this starts triggering some are you mad at me?

661
00:39:05,796 --> 00:39:08,316
Speaker 2: Thinking did I do something wrong? They must hate me?

662
00:39:09,276 --> 00:39:13,476
Speaker 2: And maybe your familiar instinct is to send them a

663
00:39:13,556 --> 00:39:18,556
Speaker 2: funny video to break the ice, or to compliment them,

664
00:39:18,676 --> 00:39:22,556
Speaker 2: or to like just diffuse this perceived tension in some way.

665
00:39:23,116 --> 00:39:26,916
Speaker 2: Sitting with discomfort in this example would probably look like pause,

666
00:39:27,236 --> 00:39:32,116
Speaker 2: put the phone down, take a second. What's going on here?

667
00:39:32,676 --> 00:39:34,796
Speaker 2: And in my book, I have an acronym called nicser,

668
00:39:35,116 --> 00:39:38,836
Speaker 2: So maybe that's first. Okay, noticing notice that something has

669
00:39:38,956 --> 00:39:42,156
Speaker 2: changed for you, Notice that some anxiety was triggered, Notice

670
00:39:42,196 --> 00:39:45,436
Speaker 2: that you're thinking about these worst case scenarios. Just acknowledge it,

671
00:39:45,956 --> 00:39:49,596
Speaker 2: notice it. It's then I invite it to stay. This

672
00:39:49,756 --> 00:39:52,436
Speaker 2: is allowed to be here. I think our first instinct

673
00:39:52,836 --> 00:39:54,796
Speaker 2: is to shove our emotions down. I shouldn't be upset,

674
00:39:54,796 --> 00:39:57,556
Speaker 2: I shouldn't be anxious. It's okay, this is allowed to

675
00:39:57,636 --> 00:40:01,636
Speaker 2: be here. I'm allowed to feel this, having some sea curiosity.

676
00:40:02,036 --> 00:40:05,316
Speaker 2: What triggered this? Okay, well, she didn't text me back

677
00:40:05,596 --> 00:40:09,356
Speaker 2: for three hours, and then this triggered this fear that

678
00:40:09,436 --> 00:40:11,476
Speaker 2: she hates me, or that I said a stupid joke

679
00:40:11,596 --> 00:40:15,676
Speaker 2: last night and now she's ghosting me or whatever. Curiosity okay,

680
00:40:16,036 --> 00:40:17,556
Speaker 2: and then what does that feel like in my body?

681
00:40:17,916 --> 00:40:21,916
Speaker 2: My heart's racing, my palms are sweating. Curiosity and then

682
00:40:22,116 --> 00:40:26,356
Speaker 2: e embracing this emotion. This is the most uncomfortable step

683
00:40:26,396 --> 00:40:28,556
Speaker 2: for many people, which is as if we're kind of

684
00:40:28,596 --> 00:40:31,276
Speaker 2: wrapping that emotion and anxiety in a blanket.

685
00:40:31,036 --> 00:40:32,596
Speaker 1: When I want to hit it with a baseball.

686
00:40:32,676 --> 00:40:36,636
Speaker 2: Mats maas, Yeah, you're like, I hate I don't feeling this.

687
00:40:37,116 --> 00:40:39,716
Speaker 2: We're not shoving this away. This is allowed to be here.

688
00:40:40,436 --> 00:40:44,156
Speaker 2: This is just some feeling of dysregulation, and I'm safe

689
00:40:44,436 --> 00:40:49,596
Speaker 2: and having some gentleness and softness with this emotion. And then,

690
00:40:50,316 --> 00:40:53,796
Speaker 2: lastly is our return to what's real and true right now? Okay,

691
00:40:53,916 --> 00:40:57,516
Speaker 2: so we just went through this scenario. What's actually happening

692
00:40:58,276 --> 00:41:00,956
Speaker 2: I'm breathing in my body, my feet are on the ground,

693
00:41:01,156 --> 00:41:03,916
Speaker 2: there are sounds in the room. And this our step

694
00:41:04,036 --> 00:41:07,756
Speaker 2: is so important because we're bringing ourselves through this hypothetical scenario.

695
00:41:07,916 --> 00:41:10,156
Speaker 2: We don't even know if she's you. We don't know

696
00:41:10,676 --> 00:41:14,076
Speaker 2: maybe she is, and that's its own discomfort. But in

697
00:41:14,196 --> 00:41:17,356
Speaker 2: this moment, we don't know anything. And so by finishing

698
00:41:17,476 --> 00:41:21,036
Speaker 2: this process, by returning to what's actually true, we're signaling

699
00:41:21,076 --> 00:41:25,076
Speaker 2: to our body, this is what's actually real. This scenario

700
00:41:25,236 --> 00:41:28,596
Speaker 2: feels real because physiologically I'm imagining it and I'm living it.

701
00:41:29,396 --> 00:41:33,196
Speaker 2: But here's what's actually true right now. Just the process

702
00:41:33,316 --> 00:41:36,916
Speaker 2: of pausing and looking inward. That's the win. That's the

703
00:41:37,036 --> 00:41:40,196
Speaker 2: slowly increasing our tolerance, because in those three minutes that

704
00:41:40,316 --> 00:41:43,876
Speaker 2: we were having some curiosity about what was happening, there

705
00:41:43,956 --> 00:41:47,236
Speaker 2: is maybe some agitation, there was maybe some restlessness, and

706
00:41:48,716 --> 00:41:51,356
Speaker 2: that's the discomfort that we're talking about. And so then

707
00:41:51,396 --> 00:41:53,716
Speaker 2: there might be some clarity of I'm going to let

708
00:41:53,836 --> 00:41:56,316
Speaker 2: this breathe. I'm not going to text her again, I'm

709
00:41:56,316 --> 00:41:58,636
Speaker 2: not going to double text her. I'm just going to

710
00:41:58,676 --> 00:42:00,436
Speaker 2: put the phone down and move on with my day.

711
00:42:00,716 --> 00:42:02,916
Speaker 2: Or maybe you have clarity of no I think I

712
00:42:02,996 --> 00:42:04,876
Speaker 2: want to talk about this with her, like whatever, the

713
00:42:05,236 --> 00:42:08,916
Speaker 2: clarity comes through, but to look inward first before immediately

714
00:42:08,916 --> 00:42:13,516
Speaker 2: trying to dissolve art discomfort through external validation. Yes, that's

715
00:42:13,636 --> 00:42:14,236
Speaker 2: the practice.

716
00:42:14,516 --> 00:42:17,636
Speaker 1: Okay, I mean double texting. Who would ever do that? Meg,

717
00:42:17,916 --> 00:42:23,476
Speaker 1: I've never hypothetical quable texted someone. I'm curious to know

718
00:42:23,796 --> 00:42:26,956
Speaker 1: a story in your recent life where you were finding

719
00:42:26,996 --> 00:42:29,996
Speaker 1: yourself reverting back to your old fawning ways, and you

720
00:42:30,196 --> 00:42:34,396
Speaker 1: utilized some of these insights. You utilized the nicer framework,

721
00:42:34,436 --> 00:42:37,876
Speaker 1: for example, to break out of those old patterns of behavior,

722
00:42:38,196 --> 00:42:39,396
Speaker 1: those old patterns of mine.

723
00:42:40,116 --> 00:42:44,796
Speaker 2: Actually writing the book about the faun responds helped heal

724
00:42:44,836 --> 00:42:47,996
Speaker 2: the fun responds the most in me, and that I

725
00:42:48,236 --> 00:42:52,516
Speaker 2: wrote it thinking my dad would read it, but just

726
00:42:52,636 --> 00:42:55,596
Speaker 2: thinking that here comes the faun responds, thinking of what

727
00:42:55,716 --> 00:42:57,476
Speaker 2: will he think of this? And will he be mad

728
00:42:57,516 --> 00:43:02,116
Speaker 2: at me? And will he get really upset about this line?

729
00:43:02,276 --> 00:43:06,116
Speaker 2: And seeing it through his eyes instead of my own?

730
00:43:06,596 --> 00:43:09,676
Speaker 2: And as I was writing it, I noticed that fear

731
00:43:09,716 --> 00:43:13,796
Speaker 2: and I would it would come up. But the difference

732
00:43:13,876 --> 00:43:16,276
Speaker 2: is I would notice it and I would soothe it

733
00:43:16,396 --> 00:43:19,556
Speaker 2: and work through it. And so we're not getting rid

734
00:43:19,596 --> 00:43:22,196
Speaker 2: of it because let's imagine this faun response part of

735
00:43:22,276 --> 00:43:25,516
Speaker 2: ourselves as a younger version of us. I don't want

736
00:43:25,516 --> 00:43:27,996
Speaker 2: to get rid of my younger version of me. I

737
00:43:28,116 --> 00:43:30,116
Speaker 2: want her around. And if I were to look at

738
00:43:30,156 --> 00:43:32,036
Speaker 2: that younger version of me and say, what's wrong with you?

739
00:43:32,156 --> 00:43:34,436
Speaker 2: Get out of here, I don't want you here. I'm

740
00:43:34,476 --> 00:43:36,596
Speaker 2: actually talking to her in the same way I was

741
00:43:36,636 --> 00:43:39,316
Speaker 2: told growing up, which is something's wrong with you, and

742
00:43:39,476 --> 00:43:41,716
Speaker 2: I want to have a new relationship with her. And

743
00:43:41,836 --> 00:43:45,236
Speaker 2: so for me, when the faun response gets triggered, which

744
00:43:45,356 --> 00:43:49,116
Speaker 2: it does quite frequently, because that younger version still exists,

745
00:43:50,116 --> 00:43:54,396
Speaker 2: it's not about erasing that but moving through it, moving

746
00:43:54,516 --> 00:43:55,716
Speaker 2: through the discomfort of it.

747
00:43:56,716 --> 00:44:01,076
Speaker 1: You mentioned that when we fawn excessively anyway, we are

748
00:44:01,196 --> 00:44:05,116
Speaker 1: abandoning a core part of who we are. Yeah, who

749
00:44:05,356 --> 00:44:08,436
Speaker 1: are you, Meg? Now that you're less of a fauner?

750
00:44:08,636 --> 00:44:11,676
Speaker 1: What parts of yourself have you uncovered or discovered that

751
00:44:11,796 --> 00:44:13,596
Speaker 1: you simply didn't know were there before?

752
00:44:14,796 --> 00:44:18,396
Speaker 2: I really thanks for that question. That's really thoughtful. First

753
00:44:18,436 --> 00:44:21,156
Speaker 2: of all, I think this returning to the self is

754
00:44:21,276 --> 00:44:25,396
Speaker 2: also not fixed. I think it's a constant getting to

755
00:44:25,476 --> 00:44:28,156
Speaker 2: know ourselves, knowing that we are always changing and we

756
00:44:28,276 --> 00:44:31,996
Speaker 2: are always evolving, so I almost feel like coming closer

757
00:44:32,076 --> 00:44:36,396
Speaker 2: to myself has meant not gripping so hard on who

758
00:44:36,476 --> 00:44:39,596
Speaker 2: that person is. But I've also found that when I

759
00:44:39,676 --> 00:44:42,916
Speaker 2: feel closest to myself, I'm kind of returning to who

760
00:44:42,996 --> 00:44:46,916
Speaker 2: I was as a kid, Like before people pleasing got

761
00:44:46,956 --> 00:44:50,436
Speaker 2: a huge hold on me. I love to be creative.

762
00:44:50,476 --> 00:44:51,996
Speaker 2: I love to spend time in nature. I love to

763
00:44:52,036 --> 00:44:55,396
Speaker 2: be outside, I love to be cooking. Like I feel

764
00:44:55,436 --> 00:44:57,436
Speaker 2: more clear on how I enjoyed to spend my time.

765
00:44:57,516 --> 00:44:59,956
Speaker 2: I feel more clear on who I want to spend

766
00:44:59,996 --> 00:45:03,036
Speaker 2: my time with. And I also feel that there's less

767
00:45:03,116 --> 00:45:06,436
Speaker 2: thinking about who I am. I don't feel myself self

768
00:45:06,556 --> 00:45:09,356
Speaker 2: analyzing am I this person? Or am I this person?

769
00:45:09,436 --> 00:45:10,156
Speaker 1: Am I this? Yeah?

770
00:45:10,236 --> 00:45:13,476
Speaker 2: I feel just more of it just is and that

771
00:45:13,876 --> 00:45:16,916
Speaker 2: person comes through, and we all have different parts of ourselves,

772
00:45:17,036 --> 00:45:21,556
Speaker 2: and I just feel a more easeful allowing of those parts.

773
00:45:21,836 --> 00:45:24,276
Speaker 2: Granted I'm check in with me in thirty years. I'm

774
00:45:24,276 --> 00:45:26,076
Speaker 2: sure I'll look back on myself now and be like,

775
00:45:26,236 --> 00:45:28,996
Speaker 2: she had no idea who she was, but no, this

776
00:45:29,196 --> 00:45:30,316
Speaker 2: is who I feel I am now.

777
00:45:30,996 --> 00:45:33,316
Speaker 1: I love that so much. Think about all of the

778
00:45:33,516 --> 00:45:38,036
Speaker 1: energy we pour into trying to figure out quote who

779
00:45:38,436 --> 00:45:41,076
Speaker 1: we ought to be when actually just being is so

780
00:45:41,276 --> 00:45:43,196
Speaker 1: easeful because you don't have to think about it.

781
00:45:44,036 --> 00:45:46,876
Speaker 2: Yes, oh my gosh, and how perfect because the faun

782
00:45:46,956 --> 00:45:50,396
Speaker 2: response is so rooted and doing more. I need to

783
00:45:50,556 --> 00:45:52,596
Speaker 2: do more to be liked. I need to do more

784
00:45:52,676 --> 00:45:55,356
Speaker 2: to be approved of and to shift the focus to being,

785
00:45:55,916 --> 00:45:59,196
Speaker 2: and that it can be easy and more effortless to

786
00:45:59,316 --> 00:46:01,396
Speaker 2: come back to ourselves. We don't have to try so

787
00:46:01,516 --> 00:46:03,876
Speaker 2: hard to return. What a relief.

788
00:46:25,356 --> 00:46:27,796
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you like what

789
00:46:27,876 --> 00:46:29,956
Speaker 1: you heard, make sure to follow a slight Change of

790
00:46:30,036 --> 00:46:32,596
Speaker 1: plans wherever you listen to podcasts, and be sure to

791
00:46:32,676 --> 00:46:35,676
Speaker 1: pre order a copy of my book, The Other Side

792
00:46:35,676 --> 00:46:38,636
Speaker 1: of Change wherever you buy books. You can also find

793
00:46:38,676 --> 00:46:41,716
Speaker 1: a link in the show notes. It's hard to believe,

794
00:46:41,956 --> 00:46:44,396
Speaker 1: but we're just a few weeks away from our final

795
00:46:44,516 --> 00:46:47,716
Speaker 1: episode of the year. That means we're also gearing up

796
00:46:47,796 --> 00:46:50,436
Speaker 1: for our twenty twenty sixth season. If there's someone that

797
00:46:50,516 --> 00:46:52,516
Speaker 1: you think we should talk to or a topic you'd

798
00:46:52,556 --> 00:46:54,796
Speaker 1: like to hear about, we'd love to hear from you.

799
00:46:55,196 --> 00:46:57,756
Speaker 1: You can send us an email at slight Change at

800
00:46:57,836 --> 00:47:01,276
Speaker 1: pushkin dot fm and join me soon for our final

801
00:47:01,396 --> 00:47:04,916
Speaker 1: episode of the year, when comedian Zarnagar gives us a

802
00:47:05,076 --> 00:47:07,876
Speaker 1: masterclass embedding on yourself.

803
00:47:09,116 --> 00:47:12,916
Speaker 3: And Andrews would not matter in the end. In the end,

804
00:47:13,556 --> 00:47:16,716
Speaker 3: all the failures are like the tasting spoons of life.

805
00:47:17,076 --> 00:47:18,876
Speaker 3: You know, when you're making a soup, you taste it

806
00:47:18,996 --> 00:47:22,236
Speaker 3: twenty dives. You just have to get it perfect by

807
00:47:22,316 --> 00:47:25,476
Speaker 3: the end, and it will happen if you keep tasting enough.

808
00:47:26,436 --> 00:47:29,436
Speaker 1: That's coming up on A Slight Change of Plans. See

809
00:47:29,476 --> 00:47:34,276
Speaker 1: you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written

810
00:47:34,396 --> 00:47:37,876
Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Changed

811
00:47:37,956 --> 00:47:41,996
Speaker 1: family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate

812
00:47:42,076 --> 00:47:46,596
Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan, our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubn, and

813
00:47:46,716 --> 00:47:50,956
Speaker 1: our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful

814
00:47:51,036 --> 00:47:54,316
Speaker 1: theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A

815
00:47:54,396 --> 00:47:57,516
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,

816
00:47:57,716 --> 00:48:00,676
Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a

817
00:48:00,876 --> 00:48:03,956
Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A

818
00:48:04,036 --> 00:48:07,196
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker.

819
00:48:07,516 --> 00:48:08,236
Speaker 1: See you next week.

820
00:48:12,356 --> 00:48:23,276
Speaker 3: The do