WEBVTT - #156 Wrongful Conviction: Junk Science - Fingerprint Evidence 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:04.520 It's Friday night. You hop in the shower, then put 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:07.960 on your favorite blue button down shirt. You look at 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:10.719 yourself in the mirror and hype yourself up a bit. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.440 You're forty years old, but you've taken good care of 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:17.599 yourself over the years and still look pretty damn good. 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:21.400 You head out, and when you get to the club, 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:24.280 you see your friend Alvin standing outside on the corner 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:28.080 waiting for you. You smile because Alvin's always a good time. 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:30.680 He might be the only person who can keep up 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:34.199 with you when you dance all night. You both head 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:37.159 inside and grab a drink, catch up a little bit, 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:40.880 and then hit the dance floor. The place is all 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.880 bass and flashing lights. Neither one of you stops moving 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:47.840 until they turn off the music and the DJ tells 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:51.240 everyone it's closing time. Time to get out of here. 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:53.960 When you get outside the club, you say goodbye to 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:56.440 Alvin because you have to get up early in the morning. 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:58.600 You're not going to go back to his place tonight. 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:02.880 You give Alvin a call the next weekend, but there's 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:07.000 no answer. You don't think much of it because Alvin 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:10.280 sometimes just doesn't answer his phone. He's the kind of 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:14.280 guy that does his own thing. But then a few 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:18.200 days later, you get a call from another friend. He 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:21.600 tells you he passed by Alvin's house and there were 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:26.800 police officers surrounding it. They said that Alvin had been murdered. 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:31.160 You hang up and immediately head to the police station. 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:35.000 You want to help figure out who did this. You 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:38.160 meet with detectives and you find out that Alvin was 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:41.560 murdered on the night you went dancing with him, but 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:46.400 he wasn't discovered until nine days later. His landlord found 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:48.960 him on the floor of his apartment, and you hear 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:53.080 all this, and you're just immediately nauseous. If you had 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:55.840 stayed at his house that night, maybe you could have 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:59.760 protected him. You tell the police everything you can remember 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:03.920 that night. You want to do anything you can to 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:06.279 help them find out who did this to your friend. 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:12.120 The police call you in four times over the next 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:16.200 two weeks as they investigate Alvin's murder. One day, they 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.440 tell you they're taking fingerprints of everyone who had been 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:23.239 around Alvin in the days preceding his death. They tell 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:25.920 you that by allowing them to take your prints, it'll 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.840 help them figure out who committed the murder. Part of 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.480 you feels like you're in an episode of some detective 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:34.320 show when they press the tips of your fingers and 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:37.679 the palms of your hands on a cold inkpad, then 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.360 roll the tips of your fingers one by one on 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:43.680 a piece of paper. You've seen this process what seems 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:46.800 like hundreds of times before on TV and in the movies, 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:50.640 but you've never actually done it yourself. You have no record. 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:55.040 You've never been fingerprinted before. Not long after that, the 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:57.760 police call you into the station one more time, but 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:04.919 something has shifted. They bring you into an interrogation room. 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:08.840 The first thing they do is show you a polaroid 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:13.760 of Alvin's body. You immediately feel fluid bubble into your 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:17.919 esophagus and you quickly scan the room for a garbage can. 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:21.800 Your mind quickly computes shit if IPU in front of 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:25.800 these cops, they'll think I did this. You manage to 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:29.400 swallow the vomit and there's a sharp burn in your throat. 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.600 Then they show you another picture and Alvin is flat 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:38.520 on his back. There's blood everywhere, on his clothes, the 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:41.120 carpet next to him. You can't even see his face. 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:44.720 Whoever did this? Put Alvin's big white box fan over 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:47.400 his head and shoulders, so you can't see the top 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:50.080 portion of his body. You used to make fun of 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:52.800 Alvin for that fan. You were always telling him just 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:56.440 to invest in a damn ac unit. Already the whole 0:03:56.440 --> 0:04:01.040 thing seems so surreal. And now the office are pointing 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:03.720 at the fan in the picture and they say, you 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:07.640 see those bloody smudges on the fan, Those are fingerprints 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:10.280 and the prince we took from you the other day. 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:14.280 We've collected over a dozen fingerprints of people who were 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:18.719 in Alvin's apartment before he was murdered, and only yours 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:21.560 matched the prints on that fan. There were no signs 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.280 of break in at his apartment, but you didn't have 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:27.440 to break in, did you. Alvin let you in after 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:30.680 your night out together. Then you got in an argument 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:33.320 with him. You got jealous that he was dancing with 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:37.320 other men, and you stabbed him to death, didn't you. 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:40.119 You stare at the officer and disbelieve no. You say, 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.119 what are you talking about? Why would I come here 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:45.919 willingly to help you guys out if I had anything 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:49.599 to do with this. They don't listen to a word 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:53.160 you say. They put handcuffs on you and put you 0:04:53.240 --> 0:05:02.120 in custody at your trial. Prosecution calls a fingerprint expert 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:06.480 to the stan. He says, before we're even born as 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:10.360 fetuses in the womb, human beings develop ridges on their 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:14.159 fingers and hands. In addition to those ridges, we have 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:18.200 glands that secrete oils, so that when we touch objects, 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.880 the whorls, loops, and swirl pattern of those ridges are 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:26.400 left behind. Fingerprint analysis has been around for over one 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:30.200 hundred years, and we know that each of our fingerprints 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:34.240 are unique. The fingerprints were covered from this crime scene 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:37.479 were visible to the naked eye because they were left 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:41.960 as impressions in the victim's blood. I analyze these prints 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:46.320 and compare them to defining characteristics of the defendants prints. 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:50.919 The bloody prints found near the victim's body clearly belonged 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:54.560 to the defendant. I am one hundred percent certain about this. 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:59.120 The prosecution calls two more fingerprint experts to the stand, 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:04.839 and they all agree these are your prints. But your 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:08.640 attorney calls two witnesses to the stand, fingerprint experts that 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:12.360 claim it isn't even close. There's no way these prints 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:16.160 belong to you. The jury isn't phased by the conflicting 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:19.960 opinions of the expert witnesses. They are convinced by the 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:24.280 impassioned story that the prosecutor laid out. They convict you 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:28.479 of first degree murder and abuse of a corpse. Your 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:33.039 sentenced to life without parole. There is shouting in the 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.200 courtroom as you're escorted out by cops with your hands 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:40.400 cuffed tightly behind your back. You can't understand why this 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:45.200 is happening. What is going on? Those are not your fingerprints. 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:51.400 You feel totally and completely helpless, But lucky for you, 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:56.479 this isn't the end. The fingerprint experts that testified in 0:06:56.520 --> 0:07:00.440 your defense call this conviction a gross miscarriage of justice. 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:05.200 They demand that the evidence be reevaluated. A panel of 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:09.840 experts do just that and find that the prosecution's evaluation 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:13.760 was clearly wrong. The prints at the crime scene clearly 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:17.800 do not match your fingerprints. One of the experts for 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:21.960 the prosecution admits he made a mistake. You're afforded a 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:26.160 new trial and you are found not guilty. But this 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:31.240 process takes two agonizing years, and after serving that amount 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.120 of time in prison for a crime you never committed, 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:41.480 the murder of your friend, you're released. The story you 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:44.760 just heard is based on the true story of Richard Jackson, 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:48.320 who was wrongfully convicted and sentenced to life without parole 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.360 for the murder of his friend Alvin Davis in nineteen 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:55.440 ninety eight. While fingerprint analysis has been proven to be 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:59.600 purely subjective, it still holds a firm place in the 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:07.160 public imagination and therefore enjures minds as reliable science. I'm 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:11.280 Josh Dubin civil rights and criminal defense attorney, an innocent 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:15.320 ambassador to the Innocence Project in New York. Today, on 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:21.400 Wrongful Conviction Junk Science, we examined fingerprint evidence. Contrary to 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:25.440 what pop culture has ingrained in the American conscience. Matching 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:28.800 known prints of a suspect the prince left at the 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:32.560 scene of a crime is not an exact science. It 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:36.520 is entirely subjective, up to the eye of the examiner. 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:41.240 So how did fingerprints become so widely accepted and thought 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:45.520 of as the gold standard as full proof evidence. It 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:48.800 turns out that the first time fingerprints were admitted into 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:52.400 evidence was almost one hundred and ten years ago, and 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:56.240 the methods used to match prints to individuals hasn't changed 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:56.880 much since. 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:04.960 The Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter of this episode 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:08.400 and of the Last Mile organization, which provides business and 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:13.319 tech training to help incarcerated individuals successfully and permanently re 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:17.200 enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation is committed to improving 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:22.000 the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting organizations dedicated primarily 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:25.560 to helping young people and students. For more information on 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.600 the work of the Pacers Foundation or the Last Mile Program, 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:32.800 visit Pacersfoundation dot org or the Lastmile dot org. 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.880 As Clarence Hiller painted the railing outside his home in 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:46.840 the early evening of September eighteenth, nineteen ten, he couldn't 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.079 stop looking over his shoulder. It seemed like the entire 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:53.040 South Side of Chicago was on edge. There had been 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.040 a number of robberies in the area, and everyone was 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:59.480 worried that they could be the next victim, And so 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.120 in the the middle of that night, when Clarence heard 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:05.040 the screams of his wife and daughter, he was prepared 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.840 to launch into action. He confronted the stranger in his house, 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:11.600 and as Clarence tried to force the man out, both 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:15.840 the robber and Clarence fell down the stairs. Three shots 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.520 were fired, the intruder fled, and his neighbors came outside 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.040 and their slippers and robes to see what had happened. 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.920 They found Clarence bleeding just outside his front door with 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:29.560 his daughter standing over him. The police were called and 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:33.200 a suspect, Thomas Jennings, was found just eight blocks away. 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:36.720 His coat was torn and bloody, and he was carrying 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:41.120 a revolver. Thomas Jennings was ultimately convicted, but this wasn't 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:45.160 the only evidence used in his prosecution. When Thomas Jennings 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:48.200 climbed into the Hiller's home that night, he grabbed onto 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:51.360 the railing that Clarence was painting the night before, leaving 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:54.280 a fingerprint behind in a semi wet coat of paint. 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:57.560 The prosecution cut off the piece of the rail with 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:01.520 the fingerprint that Jennings left behind. At his murder trial, 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:05.120 jennings defense attorney argued that this new forensic method of 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:08.800 lifting and comparing fingerprints couldn't be trusted. There were no 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:12.240 tests that could prove that it was reliable. But then 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:15.360 the prosecutor got in front of the jury and pressed 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.599 his finger onto a piece of paper. He then demonstrated 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:20.760 how he was able to lift his own print off 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.600 of it. By proving that he could collect the evidence 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:26.120 he was able to convince the jury that it was 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:30.960 also possible to accurately analyze and match it to a suspect. 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:35.720 The judge ruled that fingerprint testimony was admissible and Jennings 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:40.120 was convicted. The precedent of admitting fingerprints has been upheld 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.360 again and again, despite the fact that numerous men and 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:48.360 women have been falsely identified through fingerprint evidence. For example, 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:50.880 on March eleventh, two thousand and four, there were a 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:54.720 series of explosions in Madrid during rush hour. Ten bombs 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.600 went off, all within two minutes of each other. One 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:00.760 hundred and ninety three people died in almost two thousand 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:05.720 were injured. Upon investigation, Spanish authorities found a fingerprint on 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:09.160 one of the plastic bags that contained a detonator. They 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.440 photographed it, then reached out to countries around the world 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:15.480 to help find the culprits of the attack. The US 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:19.160 authorities ran the print through a database of fingerprints. Twenty 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:23.520 possible matches appeared. One of them was Brandon Mayfield, but 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:26.960 Brandon Mayfield hadn't left the country in ten years. He 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:30.640 didn't even have a valid passport. FBI analysts had no 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:32.920 idea how Mayfield would have been able to fly to 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:36.839 Spain and back completely undetected, and yet they pursued him 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.360 as a suspect. It turns out that Brandon had converted 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:44.319 to Islam after marrying his Egyptian wife, and so American 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:47.640 authorities must have seen him as a convenient suspect just 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:51.439 a few years after nine to eleven. In fact, despite 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.800 evidence that showed that it was extremely unlikely that Brandon 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.760 had left the Prince on that back, three different FBI 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:01.679 agents testified that the prince found in Spain matched Mayfields. 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.400 They said that it matched with one hundred percent certainty. 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:09.040 They arrested Mayfield, and while he sat in jail, the 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:12.680 FBI tried to convince the Spanish authorities that these prints 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:15.840 were Mayfields, but the Spanish police didn't see what the 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.880 FBI saw. The prince didn't seem to match it all, 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:22.080 from their perspective, a far cry from a match with 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:25.319 one hundred percent certainty. They said that when they compared 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:27.960 Mayfield's prince to the ones on the bag, it was 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:33.880 quote conclusively negative. They eventually did find a match for 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:37.160 the fingerprints and apprehended the man who left them behind 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:40.320 during the attack. The FBI admitted that they made a 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:45.000 mistake in pursuing Mayfield and let him walk free. Mayfield 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:48.439 is now probably the best known case of mistaken fingerprints, 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:57.760 but he certainly isn't the only one. 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:57.360 And we probably can guess if the Spanish police hadn't 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:00.520 been involved, or if they didn't have DNA, imagine this 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.480 case in the United States. Mister Mayfield would have been convicted. 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:09.680 How would his defense lawyer have attacked three FBI agents 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:12.160 with all of this experience, who claimed with one hundred 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.880 percent certainty that this print belonged to mister Mayfield. But 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:21.440 here's the point here. You could assume that three fingerprint 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:25.840 examiners with decades of experience who were certified, followed the 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:28.400 process and they were all wrong. 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:34.640 Joining us today is Mary Moriarty, the chief public Defender 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:38.080 of Hennepin County in Minnesota, and I'm really excited to 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.960 have her as a guest. She is a staunch defender 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:45.080 of the rights of the accused, an outspoken one of that, 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:49.120 and we need more public defenders like that in our country. 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:53.080 She has worked to challenge the admission of fingerprints. So, Mary, 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:55.440 tell us a little bit about how you first became 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:56.760 interested in fingerprints. 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:01.280 So it goes back to when I as a child. Actually, 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:03.880 if you notice, my last name is Moriarty, and I 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:08.440 had a particular interest in Sherlock Holmes, and I got 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:13.600 for Christmas one year the Hardy Boys book that talked 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:17.040 about how to collect evidence, and one of the things 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:20.960 I had in there was a recipe for fingerprint powder, 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:25.760 and so I would go take my parents' glasses, wineglasses, 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:28.080 that kind of thing, and I would dust them for prints. 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:30.200 I would put tape over it and I would lift 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:33.000 the print. But I never really thought, well, what do 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:36.239 you do after that? It was just an interesting exercise 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:40.080 in taking items that I knew my parents had touched 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.200 and actually trying to lift the prints from them. 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:46.320 Well, I think I was like screwing around with a 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:48.840 Rubik's cube and playing with Gi Joe figures. So this 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:52.320 makes me feel a little bit insecure about what I 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:55.200 was doing as a kid. But it certainly sounds like 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:59.320 you were headed towards a career involving forensics in the law. 0:15:59.400 --> 0:15:59.960 For a while. 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:04.200 My father was actually a public defender, and some of 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:08.320 my dad's clients were actually my classmates, and I got 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:13.160 to know them as individuals. There's an attempt to otherwise 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:17.440 people who become public defender clients. And you know, the 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:20.280 age old question that public defenders get asked is how 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:23.480 can you represent those people? And it's very easy because 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:28.600 those people are our brothers, our dads, our sisters, our cousins. 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:31.600 And you look at what those clients have been through, 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:34.760 and so many of them have a history of trauma, 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:40.000 you can understand why they find themselves in these particular situations. 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:43.560 And I think growing up my parents fostered a really 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:47.600 strong sense of justice in my life. In every situation, 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:50.080 they would sit me down and say, you know, what 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.920 is the right thing to do here? So fast forward 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:57.240 when I went to law school. Once I finally made 0:16:57.240 --> 0:16:59.400 that decision, I knew that there was only one thing 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:02.080 that I wanted to be and that was a public defender. 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:05.400 I wanted to be in a courtroom representing the same 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:18.080 people that I got to know through my father's practice. 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:22.240 All Right, so you became an attorney and got a 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:24.280 chance to right some of the wrongs that you saw 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:28.320 the system. But what were your thoughts about fingerprints when 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:29.480 you first started out? 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:32.919 I have to acknowledge. So I've been a public defender 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:36.359 for thirty years and I certainly had fingerprint cases, and 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:40.679 I also accepted without questioning that they were based on 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:45.520 science and that an expert could actually testify that a 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:50.560 single finger made this print from the crime scene. And 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:55.120 fingerprints have been accepted as evidence in courts for over 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:59.400 one hundred years, and people assume that it's reliable. 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:02.720 So this is something that always fascinated me. I don't 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.239 even know when it was that I began to believe this, 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:09.640 but even I had come to the belief that fingerprints 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:11.919 were sort of the gold standard, and that seems to 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:15.639 be sort of a consistent, you know, collective thought in 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.840 the American psyche that fingerprints are regarded as being just 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:21.760 really reliable. Why do you think that is? 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:26.520 They're in popular culture. We've all grown up being given 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:29.840 a certain perspective on what fingerprints are. When I started 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.840 getting an interest in fingerprints, I would say to people 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:35.600 outside the legal system, my friends, I would say, you know, 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:39.840 when you think about how a fingerprint from a crime 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:43.600 scene is compared to the known print of somebody, what 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:45.840 does that look like in your mind? And they will 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:50.439 always say, well, I envision the crime scene print on 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:54.360 a screen right next to the known fingerprint, and then 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:58.120 I see a computer merging them and bells going off, going. 0:18:58.000 --> 0:18:58.600 Ding ding ding. 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:02.119 It matches, and that makes sense. It makes sense that 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:04.880 people would think that. When I tell people that that's 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:08.919 not at all what happens, they are shocked. Lay people 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:11.520 hear that there are these databases and they tend to 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:14.439 think that everybody's fingerprints are in it. And so I 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:19.239 think what people believe is that, Okay, you get a 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:22.159 fingerprint off a gun and you put it in a 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.440 database and the computer comes up with the match and 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:29.119 that's it. So that's not true at all. So of 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:33.040 course we're all entrenched in popular culture. We've been told 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:37.280 for many, many years fingerprints are fantastic, and you know, 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:41.399 why would anybody take the time to actually look to 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:42.640 see what they do? 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:46.800 So tell us a little bit about what they actually do. 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:50.359 Practically speaking, how does it actually work? What if fingerprint 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:52.600 examiners look at. 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:57.000 The way fingerprint examiners actually look at fingerprints is through 0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:01.760 what they call a methodology called ACE. So it's a 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:09.680 C E slash V, which is analysis, comparison, evaluation and verification. 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:13.560 So here's a description of what they actually do. Let's 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:19.120 say a person is shot with a gun. They will lift, 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:22.400 and by lift, I mean they'll look for a fingerprint 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:26.400 on that gun and then they will try to remove 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:29.680 that fingerprint so that they can compare it. So the 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:34.200 a part is analysis. They are supposed to look at 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:38.880 that fingerprint to see whether there is enough detail in 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:42.880 it to go any further. People have seen these pictures 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:46.760 of somebody rolling their finger over a pad of ink, 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:50.160 and that's how you get the print. That's not what happens. 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:54.560 When people touch objects. You get a fragment, and sometimes 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:58.480 it's smeared, and sometimes there's dust on it, sometimes there's oil. 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:01.399 There are a lot of different facts. And so here's 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.879 the deal. It's not that you're comparing a fully rolled 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:08.479 fingerprint to a fully rolled fingerprint. You are first looking 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:12.200 at a fragment of the print, and it is totally 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:17.480 within the subjectivity, the subjective discretion of a fingerprint analysis 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:21.880 or examiner to decide whether there is enough information on 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:25.520 that print to even go ahead and compare it. So 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:26.680 just think about. 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:30.359 That, right, That's kind of scary because it's up to 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:34.920 the judgment call of one analyst on that particular day, 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:38.919 and I'm quite sure that another analyst looking at the 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:42.040 same portion of a print might come up with the 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:47.160 opposite conclusion. So it turns out that the A in ACV, 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:51.800 the very first step is problematic and pretty flawed. So 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:54.760 the next letter is the C for comparison. Where you're 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:57.959 taking a print left at a crime scene and comparing 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:00.879 it to a suspects print. Tell us a little bit 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:02.680 about what that process entails. 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:07.480 Mary, So once you make the decision to go forward, 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:12.280 then you are onto the sea or comparison, and you're 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:16.600 comparing the fully rolled print to the fragment of a print. 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:20.440 So Josh, you might look and compare those two fingerprints 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:23.800 and say, you know, I see enough here. I see 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:27.760 twelve points of comparison. That's enough for me to say 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:32.040 that this is the same person. I might look at 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:36.520 it and say, oh, I see five points of comparison. 0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:39.399 I think that's enough to declare that it's a match. 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:43.920 So once again, it is completely subjective. 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:48.680 Right and saying, well, sometimes we think ten points that 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:52.480 look the same between a rolled print and a fragment 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:55.720 of a print are enough similarities to declare a match, 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:58.119 and sometimes we think five is enough. And that just 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:02.639 doesn't seem scientific and seemed very reliable, and so Mary, 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:06.600 something we've been addressing a lot on this podcast is 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:10.280 the two thousand and nine NAS Report. Tell us a 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:14.680 little bit about what the NAS report said about fingerprints. 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:19.520 The National Academy of Science is the most prestigious scientific 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:24.879 body in the United States and they advise Congress on 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:29.080 issues of science, medicine, pretty much anything you can think 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:33.240 of when it comes to sciences, and the National Academy 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:38.600 of Science was asked to examine the comparative forensic sciences. 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:43.560 It was a groundbreaking report and it was very in depth. 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:49.000 They took testimony, they solicited research, and it rocked the 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:52.840 forensic science community. One of the things that you realize 0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:55.480 when you look at the report, if you are a scientist, 0:23:55.560 --> 0:23:58.280 you know that there are certain tenets of science, like 0:23:58.320 --> 0:24:01.680 you have to be able to replicate the process. When 0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:06.600 a scientist does an experiment, they document what they do. 0:24:07.200 --> 0:24:10.040 And the National Academy of Science was very clear that 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:14.080 fingerprint examiners, as well as any other comparative forensic examiners, 0:24:14.200 --> 0:24:17.840 do not provide documentation. And I found this to be true. 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:21.919 You would order, you would ask for a fingerprint examiner's file, 0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:26.119 and you wouldn't really see many notes. You wouldn't know 0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:28.719 what they were actually looking at. You might have a 0:24:28.760 --> 0:24:31.439 picture of a fingerprint with some circles on it, but 0:24:31.880 --> 0:24:34.040 you wouldn't know what they were looking at. So there 0:24:34.119 --> 0:24:38.040 was no way to replicate the process that they actually used. 0:24:38.600 --> 0:24:41.800 There was no basis for saying that it came from 0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:45.359 the same source. And most of the people who did fingerprints, 0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:48.760 and probably still do in some places, are not scientists. 0:24:49.000 --> 0:24:51.840 They are not recruited because of their scientific background. They 0:24:51.840 --> 0:24:56.240 are often police officers who were apprenticed into this position 0:24:56.400 --> 0:24:59.120 because the police officer who examined the print was going 0:24:59.160 --> 0:25:04.200 to retire. And then there's the evaluation where you're actually 0:25:04.280 --> 0:25:07.879 making the decision about whether this comes from the same source, 0:25:08.359 --> 0:25:12.160