WEBVTT - TURNOUT Episode 5: ‘More rhetoric than reality’ 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:04.680 If you design, engineer, build, or maintain buildings in California, 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:08.240 you can get free technical training, continuing education credits, and 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:11.079 prepare for a range of certifications through pg n e 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.960 S online classes. Enroll at PGE dot com slash training. 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:18.760 Hey guys, I'm Kayleie Shore. On my podcast Too Much 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:21.440 to Say. I share my thoughts on everything from music 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:25.240 to Martini's, social media and social anxiety regrets to risky 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:28.280 text and so much more. I have been known to 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:32.040 read my literal diary entries on my show, and sometimes 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:34.360 I do interviews with my crazy group of friends. So 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:36.440 if you guys want to tune in, you can hear 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:38.800 new episodes of Too Much to Say every Wednesday on 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:41.839 the National Podcast Network, available on the I Heart Radio app, 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:46.480 Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to him. Make sure 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:49.159 to check out Drink Chance, your number one music podcast 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:51.920 on the Black Effect Podcast Network. Host n O r 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:53.760 E and d J E f N sat down with 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:59.200 artists and icon Ya, which Vulture called one most significant interviews. 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:02.000 I literally had to go like Danos and I don't 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:03.800 want to have to be the villain. But when I 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:08.040 went and did the Donda thing, he returned and anybody 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:11.040 had to sit back and watch the real leader. Check 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:14.120 out Drink Champ's conversation with Yea and many more legendary 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:16.920 artists each and every Friday on the Heart Radio app, 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:19.880 Apple podcast, or where ever you listen to your favorite shows. 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:26.320 We've always said that this series is about so much 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:30.600 more than just this election. As we've shown in our 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:34.360 first four episodes, the voting issues of our past and 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:38.280 how our country responds to them paved the way forward 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:43.119 shaping future elections, including the history making moment we're living 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:47.480 in today. But now here we are just days away 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:51.200 from the presidential election, and I don't know about you, 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:55.120 but I have severe asset indigestion. So before getting into 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:58.160 our main interview today, I wanted to dive into some 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:03.040 of this week's big election stories. So the good news, 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.840 particularly for a show called Turnout, is that people are 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:11.399 turning out to vote in droves. By this recording, Americans 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:16.440 have cast over seventy one million early ballots, which is 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:19.560 more than half of all ballots cast and the two 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:23.799 thousand sixteen election people are mailing them in voting early 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:28.320 making a plan for election day. It's so inspiring, I, 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:30.799 for one called a lot of my friends to make 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:33.959 sure they were getting their asses to the polls. I'm 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:36.079 calling to see if you voted or you have a 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:42.480 voting plan, Katherine, Yeah, calling to see if you voted 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:55.600 already submitted by a mailing ballot. Good. But the rules 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:58.440 about how and when those votes will be counted are 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:01.320 the subject of a political tug of war in some 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:05.680 key states, states like Wisconsin, where the Supreme Court had 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:09.480 to step in with the decision on October in another 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:13.919 major blow to Democrats, Wisconsin can't count mailed in ballots 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:17.680 received after election day if it's not close. In Wisconsin, 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:20.520 it doesn't matter. If it comes down like it did 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.320 last time to tens of thousands of votes. This could 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:26.040 very easily make up the difference between who ends up 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.560 winning this election. The Wisconsin ruling is just the latest 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:33.040 in a flurry of election year decisions that, rather than 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:36.680 grant leeway because of the pandemic is Democrats argue, have 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:43.280 mostly sided with Republicans keeping voting restrictions in place. Texas 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:46.440 Supreme Court just issued a ruling essentially shutting the door 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.560 on allowing all Texans to vote by mail during the 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.880 coronavirus pandemic and the US Supreme Court blocked a lower 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:56.720 court from allowing curbside voting in Alabama. Another change in 0:03:56.760 --> 0:04:00.360 the witness signature debate for South Carolina absentee ballot. There 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:03.360 has been so much back and forth. Finally the Supreme 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:07.400 Court ruled that those signatures are required, and there are 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:10.440 more cases like these that could be affected by Judge 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:14.240 Amy Coney Barrett's swift assent to the highest court in 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:19.000 the land. This was a rigorous confirmation process, and I 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:23.400 thank all of you, especially Leader McConnell and Chairman Graham, 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:27.240 for helping me to navigate it. It's a privilege to 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.320 be asked to serve my country in this office, and 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:35.960 I stand here tonight truly honored and humbled. While it's 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:39.320 true that this political tug of war has always happened 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:43.400 as each party vised for power every election, this year 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:47.600 is different. Mail in voting has surged this year as 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:51.200 Americans seek to avoid crowds at polling places, even as 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:55.040 Trump repeatedly claimed without evidence that it leads to voter fraud. 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:59.120 Because the President of the United States has taken fears 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:02.560 of voter fraud to a new level, a level that 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:07.400 questions the integrity of the entire election process. This is 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:10.160 going to be a fraud like you've never seen. Thousands 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:11.920 of votes are gathered and they come in and they 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:14.719 dumped in a location, and then all of a sudden 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.000 you lose elections that you think you're gonna win. You know, 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:20.120 so many years I've been watching elections and they say 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:23.400 the projected winner or the winner of the election. I 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:25.640 don't want to see that take place in a week 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:31.160 after November third, or a month or frankly, with litigation 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:35.039 and everything else, that can happen years, years, or you 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:38.680 never even know who won the election. I'm Katie Kuric, 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:42.040 and this is turnout. Can you or the White House 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:44.640 staff where you camp anervide any evidence to back up 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.680 your claim? The mail in voting is wife with fraud, 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:49.960 like the example you gave the people work in your 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:53.440 rooms filling out a false balance. And where's the evidence? 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:56.920 I think there's a lot of evidence, but will provide 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.800 you with some, Okay, and there's evidence that's being compiled 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:03.200 today on the podcast. An interview with an unlikely critic 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:08.640 of President Trump. The president's rhetoric, unproven rhetoric, the fact 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:13.880 that there is not sufficient evidence to show systemic fraud 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:17.800 did flip the switch, because that's where your responsibility comes in. 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:23.800 Benjamin Ginsburg is a top Republican election lawyer who just 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:28.160 retired in August after thirty eight years and the GOP trenches. 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.120 Now he's spending his time writing op eds, and one 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:36.320 that got my attention back in September was a surprisingly 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:41.000 blunt rebuke of the president's baseless claims that the electoral 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:45.880 system is rigged. The sanctity of elections and making sure 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:50.480 they're done properly should be of deep concern to everyone. 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:55.280 It really is the foundation of the democracy. And for 0:06:55.720 --> 0:07:00.000 the forty years that I'd been working in Republican politics, 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.960 I was either in a precinct or part of a 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.200 sort of a roving lawyer team in a state for 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:11.960 running a nationwide program where we were talking to people 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:17.440 in polling places to see what the problems were. Republicans mean, 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:20.440 probably back since the days of Tammany Hall and the 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:25.840 big city machines have been suspicious of fraudulent elections in 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:29.840 vote rating, so we've always looked for it. And every 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:34.480 state law has provisions for poll watchers or election observers, 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:38.480 and both parties should take full advantage of that, because 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:42.640 it's very important to have your people in a polling 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:46.440 place to look for problems, and so we've we've done that. 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:51.000 Now there were sort of sporadic instances of fraud that 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:56.400 came to light, but never nothing that would justify a 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:00.800 president of the United States, really any candidate saying our 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:04.520 elections are fraudulent and they're rigged and the only way 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:07.600 I can lose is if they cheat, because they're simply 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:11.360 is not evidence to support that, and so to say 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:16.240 otherwise is completely destructive. So I think that this has 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:20.920 brought us into new and in dangerous territory, and the 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:23.960 fact that I had been a part of those programs 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:26.960 for so many years meant that I thought I had 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:30.400 a perspective on it. And what concerns you the most 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:36.240 about the rhetoric we're hearing undermining our electoral process from 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:39.520 the President of the United States himself, Well, you see 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:44.920 it reflected in the polls this cycle, where a dangerously 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:48.960 and shocking the high number of people say they're not 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:51.679 sure that the election is going to be valid and 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:57.240 the results accurate. And that's really a product of presidential 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:02.199 rhetoric and certainly not a product of of any real evidence. Well, 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:06.960 let me ask you this, to play devil's advocate, We've 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:10.560 never had an election quite like this, obviously been in 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:17.160 the midst of a of a pandemic with really unprecedented 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:22.600 number of mail in ballots, and I'm curious if you 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:28.560 think that that might provide fertile ground for the kind 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:33.920 of election fraud that some people in the specifically in 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:38.400 the Republican Party or warning us of. Well, first of all, 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:40.640 I think there are two sides to the coin, and 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:44.320 we should we should talk about that. So there is 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:51.240 a huge difference between a rhetorical fusillade that elections are 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:55.200 fraudulent or rigged and actually being able to show that 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:58.320 in a way that would taint the results of an election. 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:04.600 And rather than than talking at a rally or UH 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:09.600 making threats in a tweet, you will really have to 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:14.520 go precinct by precinct and find specific instances of fraud. 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.520 They can find specific instances of fraud. It should be 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:23.160 rooted out and UH and corrected. But to be able 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:26.440 to actually throw the results of the election in doubt, 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:32.520 there will have to be ballots that are called into questions. Now, 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:36.560 I don't believe that there will be a specific number 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:40.720 of individual ballots that can be called into question, and 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:45.800 mass challenges have always been frowned upon in as a 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:49.880 matter of law and in legal proceedings. So I think 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:53.080 that UM feelings have been rebbed up to a much 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:58.199 higher degree in this election. But I think the results 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:03.160 in the casting and counting of it's themselves will will 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:06.720 be done in a way that there will be verifiable 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:11.480 results of the election. How can you assure listeners of 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:15.640 that that the systems are in fact in place that 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:21.280 will prevent and penalize any kind of voter fraud, even 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:24.840 it's if it is in fact very sporadic. Well, I 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:27.360 think that's I think it's true on a number of levels. 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:30.320 First of all is that you can go back and 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:35.720 look at instances of fraud that have been uncovered and prosecuted. UM. 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.880 Rarely is it enough to overturn the results of the election, 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:43.400 but sometimes. There was a congressional race in North Carolina 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:47.960 in two thousand eighteen where there were illegalities found, so 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:52.359 a new election was held. There have been elections in Paterson, 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:56.040 New Jersey, UH in this past year where there was 0:11:56.080 --> 0:12:01.480 found to be systemic fraud, and that was correct that UM, 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:03.960 but at the end of the day, I think people 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:09.480 can take a degree of certitude knowing that their ballots 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:13.240 are going to be counted in their community by their neighbors. 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:19.080 The US system has over ten thousand five jurisdictions with 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:22.280 with some degree of authority for the casting and counting 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:26.120 of ballots. UH. In a normal year, over a million 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:29.280 people will volunteer to be poll watchers. They are all 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:34.080 people from your communities. And um I was co chair 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:38.040 of a presidential commission, bipartisan commission back in two thousand, 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.800 thirteen and fourteen, where we got to spend an extraordinary 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:46.280 amount of time meeting the actual people from the communities 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:50.319 on the state, county, UH and local levels who are 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:54.640 responsible for conducting elections. And I take a great amount 0:12:54.640 --> 0:13:00.160 of solitude in in knowing how good those people are 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.600 and how much they do care. Having said that, what 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:07.200 was your reaction, Ben, when you started hearing Donald Trump, 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:13.320 President Donald Trump and other high ranking Republicans start laying 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:20.880 the groundwork for an all out assault on our democratic process. Well, 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:23.640 I'm not sure that they laid the groundwork for an 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:29.800 all out assault. I think they used irresponsible and regrettable rhetoric. 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:36.200 But again, the groundwork for an assault would require challenging 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:41.800 on a local level in a very granular fashion, and 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:48.000 the battleground states, with the exception of Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan, 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:52.080 have all begun to process their absentee ballots already. The 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:55.640 mail in votes that we've been reading are coming in 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:59.079 in such heavy quantity. Uh. And there have not been 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:04.320 those wide skill challenge so at least so far, that's 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:10.080 been more rhetoric than reality. Hold that thought. We'll be 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:21.640 right back after this short break. My name is Hannah, 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.840 I'm Dan, I'm Ben, and we are Group Love. If 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:27.440 you're dealing with stress or anxiety, or just need some help, 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:30.560 cal Hope is here for all Californians with free mental 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.720 health resources to help you navigate this uncertain time. Go 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:35.760 to cal Hope dot org to live chat with one 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.720 of their incredible listeners, or call their warmline at one 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:44.360 three three three seven Hope. That's one three three one 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:51.640 seven h O p e hopeless here in California. Adoption 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.000 of teams from foster care is a topic not enough 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:56.440 people know about, and we're here to change that. I'm 0:14:56.480 --> 0:15:00.000 April Dinuity, host of the new podcast Navigating Adoption Present 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.440 to buy adopt us Kids. Each episode brings you compelling, 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:06.600 real life adoption stories told by the families that lived them, 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:10.400 with commentary from experts. Visit adopt us Kids dot org, 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:14.280 slash podcast, or subscribe to Navigating Adoption presented by adopt 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:16.560 us Kids, brought to you by the U. S. Department 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.480 of Healthy Human Services, Administration for Children and Families and 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:25.360 the ACT Council. Introduce the Bizita You're all Things Music, 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:29.440 business and media podcast. Join me, Joe w Leski and 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:33.600 my co host Colin McKay every Wednesday, where we've discussed 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:36.720 the breaking news changing the music industry and what your 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:40.280 favorite artists and creatives are up to. Collin, who's your 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:43.920 favorite artist? Oh? You know? The track Factor, Demi Levado, 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:50.640 Rana Grande, Captain be Part Snap Back to Reality eminem Style. 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.800 Join music industry professionals, Joe and I as we pulled 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.760 back the curtain of the successes and failures of the biz. 0:15:57.280 --> 0:15:59.200 You guys have been hanging out a while. What are 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:03.400 they doing? Com I guess listening to an ad Sorry. 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.840 Listen to new episodes of the biz Tape every Wednesday 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:10.680 on the Nashville Podcast Network, available on I Heart Radio app, 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:24.480 Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Let's return 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:29.520 to my interview with Republican election lawyer Ben Ginsburg. Let's 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:32.360 talk about these legal battles. The r n C and 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:36.440 the Trump reelection campaign, as you know, have doubled their 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:40.120 legal budget to twenty million dollars. I think you called 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:45.800 it a torrent of voting litigation already underway. What up 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:51.320 with that, Ben? Well, So it's an interesting it's an 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:53.880 interesting phenomenon, and I think you need to take a 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:59.479 step back to appreciate. I in two thousand ten, Republicans 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:03.960 did very well in the Obama mid terms and took 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.399 control of the number of state legislators and won a 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:11.200 number of governorships, and then increased that in in two 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:15.119 thousand and twelve on the state and local level. That 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:20.560 gave Republicans the ability to pass legislation that they felt 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:26.520 gave them an advantage in the electoral context. And so 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:31.720 they did pass any number of laws. Uh, the the 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:35.640 Clinton forces and really much more of the Biden forces, 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:39.679 decided that they would go to court to try and 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:45.440 turned back those pieces of legislation that Republicans passed. Now, 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:49.200 before we start clicking our tongues at the bad Republicans 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:54.440 for doing that. Recognized that when Democrats won control of 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:59.200 the Nevada legislature and governorship and the New Jersey legislature 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.840 and governorship, they have now since two thousand and eighteen, 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:09.639 passed the Democratic version of legislation that helps them in elections. 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:14.199 So it's something that both parties do. The RNC sued 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:19.240 the Democrats after they passed that legislation. The Republicans have 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:23.560 been more successful in this past decade in winning legislatures, 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:26.399 and so they have passed any number of laws that 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:29.800 the Democrats don't like, and the Democrats have gone to court, 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:33.280 both federal and state to try and redress it. Now 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:35.480 that the shoe is a little bit on the other foot, 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:39.639 after the two thousand and eighteen elections, Democrats have passed 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:43.520 their bills and Republicans have gone to court. So the 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:47.280 weight of the legislation is really because Republicans did better 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:51.560 in elections earlier in the decade. Well, this seems pretty 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:54.800 left up to me, Ben, I mean, why are these 0:18:55.200 --> 0:19:00.639 election laws so malleable depending on who's in power? Can they? 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.840 I mean, I guess that's a that's our system of government. 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:06.360 But it seems a little screwed up to me. Well, 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:10.320 I you know, I think that they are policy choices 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:15.840 that get made in legislation. It happens in laws involving elections. 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:20.879 It certainly happens in laws involving taxes or the environment 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:25.359 or any other issue that you want to choose. There 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:29.640 are differences between the power the parties, and when one 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:32.520 party gets in power, they have a tendency to want 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.960 to pass their agenda. I get that, but voting should 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:39.720 be sacrosant, saying don't you think, well, I think that 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:45.320 there are there are disagreements in policy over elections. Republicans 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:49.320 tend to fear fraud and Democrats tend to fear suppression. 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:53.800 And in one of the other underlying phenomenons that's grown 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:58.320 in the country over the last thirty years is polarization. 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:03.920 So that uh, there are very few undecided voters at 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:08.040 this point in an election. That means that each party's 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.640 go to their base to try and energize their basis 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:16.720 to come out and so the rhetoric and the foundational 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:20.560 work that gets done reflects that. And that is what 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:25.000 I think you're saying is bad. And you know that, Um, 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:28.600 that's a much bigger phenomenon than just elections and voted. 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:33.440 Do you believe that concern about voter fraud can inevitably 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:37.359 lead to voter suppression. Well, I think that they are 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:41.480 in some ways two sides of the same coin. And 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:45.399 I think that not all the laws that are accused 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:49.840 of being suppression are suppression. And as I've written, I 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:53.199 think many of the charges about fraud or wrong. But 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:59.120 I think unfortunately the fraud versus suppression narrative is creeped 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:02.800 into the get out the vote plans for both parties, 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:08.360 and as you try and energize your base with red 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:11.120 nat rhetoric, which is what we do these days, on 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:15.560 both sides, Republicans are gonna yell fraud, Democrats are gonna 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:21.159 yell suppression. That probably does energize their base. But what 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:24.320 I think you're rightly pointing to is what about people 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:27.680 in the middle of the spectrum who are not hard partisans, 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:31.720 who really kind of went away the candidates and the 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:34.560 issues and vote one way or the other. They hear 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:38.719 the loud decibels about fraud and suppression and think, wow, 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:40.879 that's a hassle for me to go to the polls. 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:43.600 So I'm not going to go to the polls. Can 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:47.679 you give me an example of a Republican law, state 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:53.679 law passed by a Republican controlled legislature regarding voting and 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:57.480 one that might have been passed by a Democratic legislature. 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:02.240 I well, I mean, let's let's take a look at 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:06.040 at the date in which absentee ballots need to be 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:10.080 received by a state. So the at least the cases 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:13.800 that are going up to the Supreme Court are ones 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:20.119 where Republicans voted to have all absentee ballots received in 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:24.159 the polling place on election day. The current Democrats have 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:29.000 been convinced that, uh, it is better really for them 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:32.199 to get more votes in to be able to extend 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:37.040 the deadlines on the receipt of absentee ballots. So any 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:41.280 ballot postmarked by election day can be received three days, 0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:46.560 six days, twelve days after an election. So a Republican 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:53.040 legislature would pass election day receipt and a Democratic legislature 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:58.400 has passed some days afterwards. If there is so little fraud, 0:22:59.320 --> 0:23:05.200 why is the Republican party passing all these laws preventing fraud? 0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:12.159 If if experience tells us that there is very little fraud, 0:23:12.600 --> 0:23:18.359 so the the credibility of our elections also depends on 0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:23.880 their appearance. In other words, can voters take confidence that's 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:28.439 that it's a system with some standards so that cheating 0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:31.679 and fraud don't go on. In other words, the appearance 0:23:32.000 --> 0:23:37.760 of impropriety is recognized, for example, in campaign finance laws, 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:42.359 which I'm sure you love to justify limitations on the 0:23:42.480 --> 0:23:47.080 size of contributions. That's there hasn't been a finding of impropriety, 0:23:47.359 --> 0:23:51.439 it's an appearance of impropriety. The same holds true in 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:55.440 the election contest that you do need to put some 0:23:55.520 --> 0:24:00.080 standards on it, whether it's showing voter identification when you 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:03.320 go into the polls or a signature match on an 0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:08.920 absentee ballot to give voters after the election. Uh, some 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:13.760 elements have proof that in fact, all the votes are legitimate. 0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:18.359 You outright asked Republicans to quote take a hard look 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:22.520 before advocating laws that actually to limit the franchise of 0:24:22.640 --> 0:24:28.480 otherwise qualified voters. Yeah. I think that's important for Republicans 0:24:28.520 --> 0:24:31.919 to do. I think that's not always enough of the 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:35.840 equation in in all these states. I think it is 0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:39.560 important to to make it easy for people to vote. 0:24:39.920 --> 0:24:44.680 To give you an example, Republicans have all of a 0:24:44.720 --> 0:24:48.800 sudden gone negative on drop boxes, where voters can take 0:24:48.840 --> 0:24:52.120 their ballots and drop them in a box, and that's 0:24:52.160 --> 0:24:55.560 the way it gets uh. They get processed encountered, so 0:24:55.640 --> 0:24:58.639 they don't have to stand in lines either in early voting, 0:24:59.040 --> 0:25:03.719 they don't have to trust the mails by by mailing 0:25:03.760 --> 0:25:07.439 them through the postal service the drop box. Republicans for 0:25:07.480 --> 0:25:10.600 some reason have decided that drop boxes are a bad 0:25:10.680 --> 0:25:15.199 idea that to me is a barrier two voters. That 0:25:15.200 --> 0:25:18.160 that makes little or no sense. And I don't think 0:25:18.160 --> 0:25:21.159 it's right that the Republican Party in a number of 0:25:21.240 --> 0:25:27.480 states taken that position. When we come back, being Gensberg 0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:31.800 throws water on the president's fiery claims and the democrats 0:25:31.920 --> 0:25:45.080 worst post election fears. I call the Union Hall as 0:25:45.200 --> 0:25:47.880 his amount of life and death. I think these people 0:25:47.960 --> 0:25:52.600 of planning to kill Dr. King. On April four, Dr 0:25:52.680 --> 0:25:55.199 Martin Luther King was shot and killed in Memphis. A 0:25:55.240 --> 0:25:58.800 petty criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested. He pled 0:25:58.800 --> 0:26:00.840 guilty to the crime and spent the rest of his 0:26:00.920 --> 0:26:06.399 life in prison. Case closed right, James Hill Ray was 0:26:06.520 --> 0:26:11.200 upon for the official story. The authorities would parade all, 0:26:11.320 --> 0:26:14.840 we found a gun, the James L. Raybald in Birmingham 0:26:15.000 --> 0:26:18.359 that killed Dr King, Except it wasn't the gun that 0:26:18.440 --> 0:26:21.760 killed Dr King. One of the problems that came out 0:26:21.880 --> 0:26:25.320 when I got the ray case was that some of 0:26:25.320 --> 0:26:28.479 the evidence, as far as I was concerned, did not 0:26:28.680 --> 0:26:33.000 match the circumstances. This is the MLK tapes. The first 0:26:33.040 --> 0:26:36.520 episodes are available now. Listen on the I Heart radio app, 0:26:36.640 --> 0:26:41.959 Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Give us 0:26:41.960 --> 0:26:44.800 every attention. We need everything you've got fast. Waiting on 0:26:44.920 --> 0:26:49.119 Reparations would beat the podcast. Tune in every Thursday politics 0:26:49.119 --> 0:26:51.520 and wordplay. We fight for the people because they got 0:26:51.560 --> 0:26:53.800 us in the worst way. From the Hill Cooper, the 0:26:53.920 --> 0:26:56.680 Bomb Bay to count Game, from the Left on Clay 0:26:56.800 --> 0:26:59.720 to what the Neo kanse Every Thursday cop to head 0:27:00.000 --> 0:27:02.560 off to break us off with some break because we're waiting. 0:27:04.840 --> 0:27:07.520 Listen to Waiting on Reparations of my Heart radio app, 0:27:07.720 --> 0:27:13.720 Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. After thirty years, 0:27:13.800 --> 0:27:16.119 it's time to return to the halls of West Beverly 0:27:16.280 --> 0:27:18.280 High and hang out at the peach pit. On the 0:27:18.320 --> 0:27:21.679 podcast nine O two one OMG joined Jenny Garth and 0:27:21.760 --> 0:27:24.679 Tori Spelling for a rewatch of the hit series Beverly 0:27:24.760 --> 0:27:27.080 Hills nine O two one oh. From the very beginning, 0:27:27.359 --> 0:27:30.440 we get to tell the fans all of the behind 0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:33.119 the scenes stories to actually happen, so they know what 0:27:33.200 --> 0:27:36.080 happened on camera, obviously, but we can tell them all 0:27:36.200 --> 0:27:38.199 the good stuff that happened off camera. Get all the 0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:41.359