WEBVTT - How Conversion Therapy Doesn't Work 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:07.600 Do do Do Do Do do do Well. You know 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:12.559 what that bad trumpet means? We mean bad, I mean, 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:16.279 you know, bad as in Miles Davis was bad. Oh yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.480 thank you. Uh. We're announcing our live show at our 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:22.840 annual trip to San Francisco Sketch Fest. We're gonna be 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:25.840 where We're going to be at the Castro Theater, are 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:29.200 home away from home in San Francisco on Saturday, January 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:34.120 that's right. And I'm doing my third ever movie Crush 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.120 at Sketch Fest. And this is gonna be a nighttime 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:39.160 usually do a mattinee, but this is the following day 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:43.120 on Sunday, January nine, at eight pm. Uh, and it 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.040 is going to be at Piano Fight on Taylor Street. 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:48.879 And for all these you can get tickets at the 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:52.320 sketch Fest website or you can learn about tickets at 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:54.880 our home touring home on the web that is s 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:57.560 y s K live dot com. Right, that's right, we'll 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:01.240 see you guys there. Welcome to Stuff you should know, 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:10.080 a production of My Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:14.199 I'm welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck. Bryant. 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:18.080 There's guest producer Josh over there. Don't be confused, everybody, 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:21.480 there are more than one Josh in the world. It's 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:24.080 nice to hear you finally admit that it's taking a 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:29.840 long time, a lot of therapy. Hey, nice segue. It's 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:31.560 like a short stuff. I'm like, let's get to it. 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:34.039 Let's get going. Well, I have a c A to issue. 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:37.680 You know what cracks me up as people who are 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:40.360 still like, what does that mean? You figure it out? 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:43.480 You can email eventually some people will uh yeah, So 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:45.399 my c A is just a personal c A that 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:49.040 I'm going to try and just disguise my disdain for 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.240 this entire topic. But I might not do a great 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:55.559 job about it. Well you've already shown your hands, all right, good, 0:01:55.680 --> 0:02:00.360 that's my c o A. Yeah, yeah, I don't think 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:02.440 there's too many stuff. You should know listeners who are 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:06.000 probably into this, yeah what. But part of the problem is, 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:09.560 we'll see later in this episode. It's part of the 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:13.560 problem with conversion therapies coverage in the media is that 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:17.280 it has largely been fairly even handed and described as 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:23.400 like this controversial therapy and not said, uh, this scam 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:28.800 and this junk science fraud perpetrated by zealots super harmful. Yeah, yeah, 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:31.840 so that's where that's where I am. You know. That 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:34.079 stuck out to me too, that in the late nineties 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:38.000 we'll talk about it, especially when it was treated even handedly, 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:39.960 and it made me think like we should do an 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:44.440 episode on that, like the like, should the media treat 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:48.200 all sides of an issue equally? And if it does, 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:52.280 does that just like perpetuate ignorance or if it doesn't, 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:56.480 does that like support fascism? Like that's a hornessness. I 0:02:56.520 --> 0:02:58.880 really think we should do it sometimes it is. That's 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:01.480 a good good call, Thank you, Charles. I don't know 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:06.200 how we I mean, I guess I could be researched. Yeah, 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:08.880 surely somebody's done a think piece on it and we 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:15.600 can springboard off of you know, I think piece. That's right, 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:19.600 that's what we do most of our research. Uh. This 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:23.560 is from one of our great writers, Julia Layton, and 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:27.160 she put this a lot of this stuff together for us. Yeah, 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:28.960 she did a good job on this. So like the 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:33.280 additional histories you found out though, Yeah, because this this 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:35.160 so we will define it first and then we'll talk 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.720 about some histories. But this stuff, um, goes back way 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:40.880 further than you would think. But that what we're talking 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:46.240 about today is called conversion therapy reperative therapy ex gay therapy, 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:49.520 where um, reperative therapy is trademarked by the way we 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.240 should say, well, you couldn't hear it, but under my 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:57.200 breath and said more like t s it was. Yeah, 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:01.120 it was trademarked by a psychologist named Joseph Gelosi. Yes 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:06.040 sor um. So uh what conversion therapy is probably what 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:09.320 we're gonna mostly call it though what it's what it 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:16.440 is is it's an alleged psychological theory and practice that 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:20.680 is based on the idea that all people are born 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:30.600 heterosexual and because of certain um, certain events past traumas 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:35.279 usually traumas typically but also um the family dynamics play 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:39.719 a huge role. Um, people who would otherwise are meant 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:44.200 to be heterosexual can be accidentally steered into homosexuality and 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:48.640 therefore can be ex or purposefully steered back cured, yes, 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:53.200 cured being gay, right back to the righteous land of heterosexuality. 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:57.640 And as you can imagine that this is a very 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:02.120 popular with the fundamentalist Christian and um, I mean like 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.840 that's not even like a guess like it overtly is 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.479 they've adopted and taken on X gay, the X gay 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:15.000 movement as UM as basically one of the the what's 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:18.200 it called in a temp pole A temp post, sure 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:21.360 one of the planks and there in the Christian Rights 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:24.920 Platform for Social Change. Oh, it is a and it 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:28.520 was officially part of the two thousand sixteen Republican Party platform. 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:34.279 Even what that's right, Well, the whole RNC, yeah, which 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:38.640 has been called the platform has been called by far 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:42.640 the most anti l g t b Q platform in 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.680 the nation's history. I mean, yeah, that's a plank in 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:48.560 the party's platform. That's pretty significant. Like they don't throw 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:52.920 just anything in there. So um with the with with 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:58.279 um the X gay movement and conversion therapy um. I 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:01.359 saw it described at least back in the late nineties 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:06.279 as a front in the culture war that's as strong 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:11.039 and as significant as abortion. Like the the the Christian 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:16.239 right in particular is has basically dedicated itself to stamping 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:20.680 out gayness and by do by converting gay people to 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.520 to straighten us. The problem is is there is no 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:28.560 scientific evidence whatsoever that that is even possible, right, And 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:31.360 the problem is when you try and stamp out gayness. 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:33.320 That creates a good beat that you can dance to. 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:37.120 It makes that sound, and they're like, no, no, no, no, no, 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:40.320 stop stamping. I had actually I went to well should 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:43.120 I say this? I don't sure? Why not? Because this 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:45.240 is the truth. I went to a church camp once 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:47.320 when I was a youth. Well I figured a story 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:52.320 or two like that. They talked about, uh, stomping your 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:54.040 feet to the music or whatever they're playing, and they 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:58.039 literally said, don't alternate feet because that's too close to dancing. 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:03.160 Wow right, Yeah, And these weren't like, uh, I mean, 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:06.040 these are pretty mainstream Baptist church camps. It wasn't like 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:10.320 I went to some snake handling thing. No, but I 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:12.160 had a really good episode on that. Yeah, that was 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:15.680 a good one. Said anyway, stomp your feet, everybody, just 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:20.200 don't alternate so you stomp them both at once, because 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:22.600 that's not just stomp one foot, just on your right foot. 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:26.200 I was gonna say, that's just jumping lightly. Okay, So 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:28.440 that's what we're talking about. Conversion therapy. And like I 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:33.720 said it, um became part of the Christian rights kind 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:37.400 of philosophy and part of their their culture war, their 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:41.160 culture war they're fighting. Um. But it goes back way 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:43.440 further than that then. I think it was the late 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:47.120 nineties when the right kind of adopted it um. As 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:50.760 a matter of fact, like into the nineteenth century, there 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:54.240 were people who subscribed to this, but they were all psychologists. 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:56.800 This is back of the time when you could be 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:00.320 a ghost investigator and say I'm a psychologist. This is 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:03.800 the times when you could say, you know, this cigar 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.480 reminds you of your mother, you know what I'm saying. Uh, 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:08.480 And you could be a psychologist. You could be a 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.800 father of psychology at that point. Yeah, you dug up 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:14.560 a great article from history dot com called k Conversion 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:21.080 Therapy is Disturbing nineteenth century Origins by Aaron Blakemore and 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:25.200 uh attribution check. Yeah, Well, Aaron wrote a great article 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:30.360 and in it, um she talks about in eighteen nine 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:34.199 this hypnosis. Well again in the days where you could 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:37.480 be a hypnotist and be a legitimate scientist at the 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:41.440 same time getting a stage shows or psychology. That's right, 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:45.520 where's the money. But he was German, of course, and 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:48.640 he claimed to have turned a gay man straight after 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:53.800 forty five hypnosis sessions and some other therapies, and that's 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:57.520 sort of the first evidence of what we would later 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:02.360 call conversion therapy starting up, although I'm sure even before 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:04.960 that people they probably didn't call it conversion therapy. But 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:07.600 if you were an effeminate man, you are no doubt 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:13.120 probably beaten by your parents and shunned by your community. Right. Um. 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:14.920 I think one of the other things it's kind of 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:18.440 a hallmark of this long tradition of converting people in 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:21.760 from being gay to straight or trying to, is this 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:25.160 idea that there's something wrong with you if you're gay, 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:28.480 and that that idea can actually become hung up on 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:31.800 the individual, the gay person, so that they actually do 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:36.400 seek out help in becoming straight. But the problem is 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.080 in seeking that help, they're going to be frustrated and 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:43.360 they're ultimately probably going to be um, they're gonna have 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:48.040 feelings of shame, guilt, inadequacy, that they're not capable of 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:50.840 helping themselves, or something wrong with them why can't they 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:52.760 just be straight? Kind of thing. And then if you're 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.560 a minor and your parents are forcing this on you, 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.480 that then that raises it a whole other um can 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:03.320 of worm of ethical dilemmas. But even from the outset, 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.600 there were probably people who sought out hypnotists and other 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:11.319 psychologists for help. It wasn't just people walking around kidnapping 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:13.280 gay people and taking him off the street and trying 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:15.719 to convert them, right, It could have very well been 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:17.840 some man that's like, wait a minute, I don't feel 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:21.640 normal feelings because I'm looking at Joe out there in 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.280 the field and things are happening, if you know what 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:25.959 I mean. Doc, And they're like, well, come on in 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:30.240 watching him swing that scythe take his sweaty shirt off, 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:34.480 ring it over his face, that kind of thing, right, 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:37.080 So just sit down and follow the wrist watch with 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:39.880 your eyes or I guess the pocket watch would be 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:46.280 a weird uh technique. But from that same history dot 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:50.160 com article there uh she she talks about some of 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:54.360 the early attempts, like with electro convulsive therapy Lobotomyes, I 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:56.720 think we even talked about some of the lobotomy's episode 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:59.440 and they would give you a lobotomy for anything. Oh sure, 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:03.600 what about testicular transplantation, right, because that was a theory 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:08.840 from a doctor, an interochronologist name Eugene Steinach who thought 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:11.920 that your testicles were the root of the problem, Well 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:14.480 a lot of people did. There was like you could 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.319 have gay testicles literally and they would swap them out 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:20.720 for straight ones, right, And there's no I could not 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.360 find any evidence one way or the other that any 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:27.240 of these testicular transplants worked or were successful. I don't 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:29.720 think they were. But I didn't see anything that said 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:32.960 like all failed or whatever. But like what happened and 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.120 they just shrivel up and fall off or something? So 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:38.520 what do you mean if it actually like medically took 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.439 to the body or Yeah, that's what I mean. Okay, 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:45.760 saying like did it convert them? Did it work? Yeah, 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:48.160 that's the answer. But yeah, I didn't know that you 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:53.120 could in the nineteen twenties testical transplant successfully. That's what 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.640 I'm saying, Like, I surely, I mean at some point 0:11:57.280 --> 0:11:59.360 and we must have talked about this in the Michael 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:04.800 Um Dylan episode. Um we talked about the I don't 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:06.760 think it was but it wasn't a transplant. It was 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:09.200 just a straight up removal an orchiact to me, I 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:13.200 believe castration. So but at some point testicles have been 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:18.840 transplanted onto a person successfully. When did that happens? My question? 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:21.760 He probably did to a dog first. But I mean 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:24.560 think about it, like, if it didn't work, well, sorry 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:28.000 you're castrated now. Yeah. They probably didn't say sorry though, 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:31.720 but we took your gay testicles. The heterosexual testicles just 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:34.400 didn't pan out. But now you don't have any testicles, 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.920 gay or otherwise. That's right. Some of the other awful 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:40.600 techniques that they would use back in the day, um 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:44.400 were chemicals that they might have to make you wretch 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.520 and vomit when you look at, you know, pictures of 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:52.559 people of the same sex. It's called covert sensitization. Yeah, 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:56.000 or if you're cross dressing, maybe same thing, or look 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:57.800 in a mirror and be discussed it with yourself and 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:01.440 wretch and vomit. Yeah, I'm very sadly. If you have, 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:05.719 say like a UM as someone you're in a relationship 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:08.079 with that you love, they might show you a picture 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.880 of that person and um carry out aversive therapy or 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:16.559 aversive conditioning. Um, what's weird, As you said, these are 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:19.439 these are things they used to carry out. From what 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:24.320 I've seen, this stuff still goes on today, some of it. 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:27.400 So what we're talking about though, back in the nineteenth 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.280 and most of the first half or so of the 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:34.880 twentieth century this was all like the domain of psychology. 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:40.320 And then eventually gay psychologists and and other straight psychologists too. 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:43.719 We're basically like, this is wrong, Like the science is 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:48.800 not adding up. Um, this is just this is just incorrect. Yeah, 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:53.280 there were medical doctors too though, wasn't just psychologists. So eventually, 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:58.240 in nineteen seventy three, the American Psychological Association said, hey, 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:02.840 big news, We're no longer going to classify homosexuality as 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:06.120 a mental disorder. Right, And a certain part of the 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.240 population went, yeah, it's nineteen seventy two. Why did it 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:12.080 take this long? Right? Exactly? But that was a big deal, 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:17.760 and at that point a psychology mostly abandoned the idea 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:22.680 that being gay was a disorder of any kind, and 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.480 therefore there was no point in researching how to cure 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.960 someone of being gay, and so it turned its back 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:34.520 on this whole history of um conversion conversion. But it 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.720 didn't fully die away, and I believe starting in like 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:41.000 the eighties, the Christian rights started to kind of pick 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:44.160 up on it and kind of breathe new life into 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:48.480 it again. That's right, I think we should take a break. Yeah, 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:51.520 that's a robust and a half set up? Is that? 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:53.560 Oh I thought we were already into it. Oh my gosh, 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:57.520 it wasn't just a setup. You're right, we'll be right 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:26.120 back shock alright. So let's talk a little bit about 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:30.320 because there's a couple of a couple of schools of 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.760 thought here, um, and I hesitate to one to call 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:39.120 the one more bona fide. But you know, there's conversion 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:42.200 therapy that can happen at a licensed therapist office. And 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:46.040 there's conversion therapy that can happen in you know, somebody's 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:48.600 basement or the basement of a church. I was going 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:51.240 to see basement to yeah, or a room. Couldn't have 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:53.000 to be a base, I know, but a basement makes 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:57.240 it seem surely sinister. That's probably why I said it. Uh. 0:15:57.480 --> 0:15:59.640 So there are two sort of ways that can happen. 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.360 We're gonna talk a little bit about the first way. 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:11.520 Uh the patented way Reparative Therapy trademark by Joseph Nicolosi SR. 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.080 That guy doesn't even get the Italian accent, man, And 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.920 I don't blame me, he doesn't, which we should say, 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.840 by the way. In July this year, Amazon stopped carrying 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:26.400 his works on their website. Yeah, because they they considered them, 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:31.400 um that they promoted fraud, that's right, which we'll get to. Yeah, 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.760 which is interesting. But this guy is like a psychologist. Yeah, 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:38.160 he's He's a trained psychologist who basically said I'm gonna 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:41.160 take everything I learned and directed towards curing gay people 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:43.600 of being gay. Yeah. I don't know much about do 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:47.280 you know much about his religiosity or I think he 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:50.440 was Jewish okay and born in Brooklyn from what I understand. 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:53.400 I wrote a really really great um article, not a 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:58.400 think piece, but a memoir in the American prospect Um 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:03.800 from the American Prospector two twelve. Yeah, it's different by 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:07.560 Gabriel Urana. Okay. Um, it's called my so called ex 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:10.760 gay Life. It's definitely worth reading, but it's it's a 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:15.560 great look at um conversion therapy, but also is like 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:19.720 overlaid with his like personal experience with it. Okay. At 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:23.840 any rate, his contention was that, like we said, um, 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:28.440 you develop homosexuality or homosexual feelings at least because of 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:32.640 a result of environmental conditions childhood traumash and they call 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:35.400 it same sex attraction s s A, and that could 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.800 stem in his opinion from a few different things. Desire 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:43.520 for adventure, pure acceptance, uh, loneliness or boredom or curiosity, 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:47.359 um approval or affection from males. And a lot of 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.240 this is centered on men, although it's certainly women are 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:53.600 have been involved in this as well. Yeah, we'll get 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:55.000 to that. Yeah, but a lot of them are a 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:59.440 lot of this over the years is making gay men straight. Oh, yeah, 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:01.159 I see what you mean. Yeah, it's but it's not 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:06.680 exclusive to that. Uh, general rebellion, which is pretty funny. 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:11.159 And then uh, sexual molestation by another male, And I 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:14.800 think that is a very like I think that the 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:19.440 idea that that leads to being gay is very widespread 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:23.359 in culture, well beyond the Christian rioter people who believe 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:26.160 in conversion therapy, the idea that if you're sexually abused 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:28.679 by a man or somebody of your same sex, you 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:32.560 become gay, which is just wrong, but I think a 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:34.480 lot of people still believe that. I know, that's what 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:36.480 I thought when I was a kid. Yeah, that's right. 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:40.760 I mean, it's not real, it's utterly wrong, but yeah, uh. 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.320 And the whole basis of Nicolosi's theory, he takes back 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:48.359 to a study from n called Demography of Sexual Orientation 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:51.200 and Adolescence. And this was an actual study from the 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:54.960 Journal Pediatrics that looked at patterns of sexual orientation high 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:58.119 school students in Minnesota. And what they found out was 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:02.480 that younger teens and Minnesota in this study, uh, we're 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:08.120 more likely to express sexual confusion about their orientation when 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.879 they were younger, and as they grew older, they were 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:16.119 less confused about their sexual identity and orientation. Right. And 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:19.320 that's a legit study. And I think that probably anyone 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:22.400 who's ever been an early teenager in a late teenager 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:25.760 can be like, that sounds about right, exactly you. But 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:30.240 the extrapolation that Nicolosi did was what the problem is, right, 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:33.960 So Nicolosi was saying, like, yes, that shows that like 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:39.320 you're you're, you're in a dangerous place earlier on, and 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:41.840 that if a couple of things happen in a certain way, 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.720 you can be veered off of this natural path towards 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:50.200 heterosexuality into homosexuality, right and also more dangerously that means 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:52.720 we gotta get them while they're young. Right. So um. 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:55.760 One of the other things that he's he really based 0:19:55.840 --> 0:20:01.800 his practice on was this family tria of a domineering 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:08.760 over attendant mother, a passive detached father, and a sensitive 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:15.040 child in kind of in um, that's a good one 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:20.679 in that that um that triangle, like you would like 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:24.000 almost certainly have a gay kid if somebody didn't intervene. 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:27.720 So he decided like this was his career was intervening 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:30.159 in that kind of stuff. But that in and of 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:34.880 itself has never been proven to um create gay kids 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:37.639 like that, Like whether you believe in conversion therapy or not, 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:40.160 if you have a domineering mother and have some father 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.160 and you're like a sensitive type who likes dolls, even 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:46.440 doesn't mean you're gonna turn gay. This is the basis 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:48.520 of that though, is that yes you will turn gay. 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:52.520 And um still to this day this idea is allowed 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:55.920 to live because science is never fully satisfied the question 0:20:56.280 --> 0:20:59.520 like are we born gay? Do we develop being gay? 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:03.080 And it looks like it's on a pretty strong track 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:08.440 towards a genetic basis of homosexuality, but it's still nothing's definitive, 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:10.680 and so people can say, well, maybe we do develop 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:14.879 you know, an adolescence you know, being gay or whatever, 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:19.080 because science is not filled this void credet. Yeah, and 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:22.879 the way Nicolosi. Will would write about this stuff and 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:26.040 describe it as in a very sort of professional inaciost 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:30.000 type way, where a casual reader, uh might say, well, 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:33.680 this seems totally valid and above board. Yeah, Newsweek reader, yeah, 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:37.480 or an OPRAH viewer, that's right. Um, this is uh, 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:39.159 this is one of the things that I think. This 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:41.399 is from one of his books. Um. And this is 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:44.480 how he describes a relationship to from patient to therapists. 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:47.800 The client has come to the therapist seeking assistance to 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:52.840 reduce something distressing to him, and the RT psychotherapist agrees 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:55.800 to share his professional experience and education to help the 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:59.040 client meet his own goal. His own goal. The therapist 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:01.480 enters into a collaborate relationship, agreeing to work with the 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:06.160 client to reduce his unwanted attractions and explore his heterosexual potential, 0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:09.960 which again, it seems very innocuous. Uh. And and and 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:12.280 there are plenty of cases where a grown man of 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:16.280 his or woman of their own um volition goes and 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:19.679 seeks this out. But what they don't say is what 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:23.919 happens many times is apparent forces their young child to 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:26.520 do this. So that's a big one. Yeah, that's a 0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:30.359 big one. In this Um, that American Prospect magazine. Uh, 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:33.639 the author was like in his early teens when he 0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:37.320 went to Nicoloson's therapy. Um, but he said everybody else 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:39.360 in the group was in there, like forties or fifties. 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:43.240 So it's definitely both. But there's something here that's really 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:45.640 important because, like you said, if you just read this stuff, 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:48.800 it does sound innocuous. It's all very much based on 0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:52.800 things like cognitive behavioral therapy like stuff that works, which 0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:55.760 means that this works in a weird, twisted way, which 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:58.280 we'll talk about, but not in the way it's ultimately 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:03.440 meant to it. It's in a bent way. Yeah, I mean, 0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:05.760 do you want me to explain now? I feel like 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:09.040 I should. I take issue with the word works at all. 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:13.159 There are situations where it might prevent someone from acting 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:15.720 on a homosexual impulse, That's what I mean. Yeah, but 0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:20.240 that doesn't change the nature of their sexuality. No, no, right, 0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:25.280 And ultimately preventing someone or training someone to not act 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:29.000 on their sexuality is damaging in and of itself and 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:32.000 causes all sorts of other problems. But maybe good enough 0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:36.320 for a really religious family, right you know. Yeah, Well 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:38.720 that's what I read is that over time, as the 0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:42.439 Christian right adopted the idea of, you know, championing the 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:46.440 ex gay movement, that part of that was accepting gay 0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:51.280 people who refrained from gay sex. So if you were like, 0:23:51.520 --> 0:23:53.679 I'm gay, I'm never going to be straight. I tried, 0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:56.359 but I don't have sex with men, but I won't 0:23:56.880 --> 0:24:00.680 being welcomed in church. Yeah. So I was saying, though, 0:24:00.720 --> 0:24:04.800 is with with Nicholoson's thing, that there's something fundamentally wrong 0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:07.440 with it, and that if somebody came to you and said, 0:24:07.800 --> 0:24:12.760 I'm tired of being white or black or Hispanic, I 0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:16.240 can't stand it. You wouldn't say, oh, well, let's figure 0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:18.520 out how to make you not black or white or 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:21.560 hispanic or straight. Let's figure out how to change you. 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:26.199 They would say. Any therapists worth their salt would say, well, no, 0:24:26.359 --> 0:24:28.879 there's a lot of great things about being white or black, 0:24:28.960 --> 0:24:31.479 or Hispanic or straight, and let's focus on that so 0:24:31.520 --> 0:24:35.800 that you can own your identity, the like conversion therapy does. 0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:38.240 The opposite says, yes, let's figure out how to get 0:24:38.240 --> 0:24:42.000 the gay out of you. Let's change your identity because 0:24:42.880 --> 0:24:46.840 this group of society has said that it's unacceptable and 0:24:46.920 --> 0:24:50.280 that is an extraordinarily damaging position to come from, and 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:53.720