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Speaker 1: Do do Do Do Do do do Well. You know

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Speaker 1: what that bad trumpet means? We mean bad, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, bad as in Miles Davis was bad. Oh yeah, yeah, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: thank you. Uh. We're announcing our live show at our

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Speaker 1: annual trip to San Francisco Sketch Fest. We're gonna be

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Speaker 1: where We're going to be at the Castro Theater, are

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Speaker 1: home away from home in San Francisco on Saturday, January

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Speaker 1: that's right. And I'm doing my third ever movie Crush

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Speaker 1: at Sketch Fest. And this is gonna be a nighttime

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Speaker 1: usually do a mattinee, but this is the following day

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Speaker 1: on Sunday, January nine, at eight pm. Uh, and it

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Speaker 1: is going to be at Piano Fight on Taylor Street.

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Speaker 1: And for all these you can get tickets at the

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Speaker 1: sketch Fest website or you can learn about tickets at

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Speaker 1: our home touring home on the web that is s

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Speaker 1: y s K live dot com. Right, that's right, we'll

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Speaker 1: see you guys there. Welcome to Stuff you should know,

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Speaker 1: a production of My Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck. Bryant.

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Speaker 1: There's guest producer Josh over there. Don't be confused, everybody,

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Speaker 1: there are more than one Josh in the world. It's

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Speaker 1: nice to hear you finally admit that it's taking a

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Speaker 1: long time, a lot of therapy. Hey, nice segue. It's

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Speaker 1: like a short stuff. I'm like, let's get to it.

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Speaker 1: Let's get going. Well, I have a c A to issue.

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Speaker 1: You know what cracks me up as people who are

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Speaker 1: still like, what does that mean? You figure it out?

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Speaker 1: You can email eventually some people will uh yeah, So

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Speaker 1: my c A is just a personal c A that

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Speaker 1: I'm going to try and just disguise my disdain for

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Speaker 1: this entire topic. But I might not do a great

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Speaker 1: job about it. Well you've already shown your hands, all right, good,

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Speaker 1: that's my c o A. Yeah, yeah, I don't think

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Speaker 1: there's too many stuff. You should know listeners who are

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Speaker 1: probably into this, yeah what. But part of the problem is,

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Speaker 1: we'll see later in this episode. It's part of the

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Speaker 1: problem with conversion therapies coverage in the media is that

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Speaker 1: it has largely been fairly even handed and described as

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Speaker 1: like this controversial therapy and not said, uh, this scam

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Speaker 1: and this junk science fraud perpetrated by zealots super harmful. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that's where that's where I am. You know. That

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Speaker 1: stuck out to me too, that in the late nineties

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about it, especially when it was treated even handedly,

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Speaker 1: and it made me think like we should do an

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Speaker 1: episode on that, like the like, should the media treat

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Speaker 1: all sides of an issue equally? And if it does,

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Speaker 1: does that just like perpetuate ignorance or if it doesn't,

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Speaker 1: does that like support fascism? Like that's a hornessness. I

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Speaker 1: really think we should do it sometimes it is. That's

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Speaker 1: a good good call, Thank you, Charles. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how we I mean, I guess I could be researched. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: surely somebody's done a think piece on it and we

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Speaker 1: can springboard off of you know, I think piece. That's right,

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Speaker 1: that's what we do most of our research. Uh. This

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Speaker 1: is from one of our great writers, Julia Layton, and

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Speaker 1: she put this a lot of this stuff together for us. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she did a good job on this. So like the

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Speaker 1: additional histories you found out though, Yeah, because this this

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Speaker 1: so we will define it first and then we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about some histories. But this stuff, um, goes back way

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Speaker 1: further than you would think. But that what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about today is called conversion therapy reperative therapy ex gay therapy,

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Speaker 1: where um, reperative therapy is trademarked by the way we

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Speaker 1: should say, well, you couldn't hear it, but under my

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Speaker 1: breath and said more like t s it was. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was trademarked by a psychologist named Joseph Gelosi. Yes

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Speaker 1: sor um. So uh what conversion therapy is probably what

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Speaker 1: we're gonna mostly call it though what it's what it

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Speaker 1: is is it's an alleged psychological theory and practice that

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Speaker 1: is based on the idea that all people are born

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Speaker 1: heterosexual and because of certain um, certain events past traumas

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Speaker 1: usually traumas typically but also um the family dynamics play

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Speaker 1: a huge role. Um, people who would otherwise are meant

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Speaker 1: to be heterosexual can be accidentally steered into homosexuality and

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Speaker 1: therefore can be ex or purposefully steered back cured, yes,

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Speaker 1: cured being gay, right back to the righteous land of heterosexuality.

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Speaker 1: And as you can imagine that this is a very

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Speaker 1: popular with the fundamentalist Christian and um, I mean like

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Speaker 1: that's not even like a guess like it overtly is

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Speaker 1: they've adopted and taken on X gay, the X gay

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Speaker 1: movement as UM as basically one of the the what's

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Speaker 1: it called in a temp pole A temp post, sure

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Speaker 1: one of the planks and there in the Christian Rights

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Speaker 1: Platform for Social Change. Oh, it is a and it

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Speaker 1: was officially part of the two thousand sixteen Republican Party platform.

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Speaker 1: Even what that's right, Well, the whole RNC, yeah, which

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Speaker 1: has been called the platform has been called by far

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Speaker 1: the most anti l g t b Q platform in

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Speaker 1: the nation's history. I mean, yeah, that's a plank in

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Speaker 1: the party's platform. That's pretty significant. Like they don't throw

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Speaker 1: just anything in there. So um with the with with

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Speaker 1: um the X gay movement and conversion therapy um. I

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Speaker 1: saw it described at least back in the late nineties

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Speaker 1: as a front in the culture war that's as strong

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Speaker 1: and as significant as abortion. Like the the the Christian

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Speaker 1: right in particular is has basically dedicated itself to stamping

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Speaker 1: out gayness and by do by converting gay people to

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Speaker 1: to straighten us. The problem is is there is no

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Speaker 1: scientific evidence whatsoever that that is even possible, right, And

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Speaker 1: the problem is when you try and stamp out gayness.

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Speaker 1: That creates a good beat that you can dance to.

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Speaker 1: It makes that sound, and they're like, no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: stop stamping. I had actually I went to well should

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Speaker 1: I say this? I don't sure? Why not? Because this

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Speaker 1: is the truth. I went to a church camp once

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Speaker 1: when I was a youth. Well I figured a story

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Speaker 1: or two like that. They talked about, uh, stomping your

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Speaker 1: feet to the music or whatever they're playing, and they

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Speaker 1: literally said, don't alternate feet because that's too close to dancing.

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Speaker 1: Wow right, Yeah, And these weren't like, uh, I mean,

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Speaker 1: these are pretty mainstream Baptist church camps. It wasn't like

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Speaker 1: I went to some snake handling thing. No, but I

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Speaker 1: had a really good episode on that. Yeah, that was

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Speaker 1: a good one. Said anyway, stomp your feet, everybody, just

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Speaker 1: don't alternate so you stomp them both at once, because

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Speaker 1: that's not just stomp one foot, just on your right foot.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, that's just jumping lightly. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: that's what we're talking about. Conversion therapy. And like I

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Speaker 1: said it, um became part of the Christian rights kind

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Speaker 1: of philosophy and part of their their culture war, their

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Speaker 1: culture war they're fighting. Um. But it goes back way

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Speaker 1: further than that then. I think it was the late

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Speaker 1: nineties when the right kind of adopted it um. As

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Speaker 1: a matter of fact, like into the nineteenth century, there

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Speaker 1: were people who subscribed to this, but they were all psychologists.

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Speaker 1: This is back of the time when you could be

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Speaker 1: a ghost investigator and say I'm a psychologist. This is

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Speaker 1: the times when you could say, you know, this cigar

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Speaker 1: reminds you of your mother, you know what I'm saying. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And you could be a psychologist. You could be a

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Speaker 1: father of psychology at that point. Yeah, you dug up

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Speaker 1: a great article from history dot com called k Conversion

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Speaker 1: Therapy is Disturbing nineteenth century Origins by Aaron Blakemore and

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Speaker 1: uh attribution check. Yeah, Well, Aaron wrote a great article

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Speaker 1: and in it, um she talks about in eighteen nine

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Speaker 1: this hypnosis. Well again in the days where you could

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Speaker 1: be a hypnotist and be a legitimate scientist at the

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Speaker 1: same time getting a stage shows or psychology. That's right,

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Speaker 1: where's the money. But he was German, of course, and

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Speaker 1: he claimed to have turned a gay man straight after

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Speaker 1: forty five hypnosis sessions and some other therapies, and that's

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Speaker 1: sort of the first evidence of what we would later

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Speaker 1: call conversion therapy starting up, although I'm sure even before

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Speaker 1: that people they probably didn't call it conversion therapy. But

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Speaker 1: if you were an effeminate man, you are no doubt

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Speaker 1: probably beaten by your parents and shunned by your community. Right. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the other things it's kind of

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Speaker 1: a hallmark of this long tradition of converting people in

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Speaker 1: from being gay to straight or trying to, is this

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Speaker 1: idea that there's something wrong with you if you're gay,

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Speaker 1: and that that idea can actually become hung up on

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Speaker 1: the individual, the gay person, so that they actually do

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Speaker 1: seek out help in becoming straight. But the problem is

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Speaker 1: in seeking that help, they're going to be frustrated and

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Speaker 1: they're ultimately probably going to be um, they're gonna have

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Speaker 1: feelings of shame, guilt, inadequacy, that they're not capable of

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Speaker 1: helping themselves, or something wrong with them why can't they

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Speaker 1: just be straight? Kind of thing. And then if you're

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Speaker 1: a minor and your parents are forcing this on you,

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Speaker 1: that then that raises it a whole other um can

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Speaker 1: of worm of ethical dilemmas. But even from the outset,

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Speaker 1: there were probably people who sought out hypnotists and other

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Speaker 1: psychologists for help. It wasn't just people walking around kidnapping

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Speaker 1: gay people and taking him off the street and trying

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Speaker 1: to convert them, right, It could have very well been

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Speaker 1: some man that's like, wait a minute, I don't feel

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Speaker 1: normal feelings because I'm looking at Joe out there in

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Speaker 1: the field and things are happening, if you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean. Doc, And they're like, well, come on in

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Speaker 1: watching him swing that scythe take his sweaty shirt off,

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Speaker 1: ring it over his face, that kind of thing, right,

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Speaker 1: So just sit down and follow the wrist watch with

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Speaker 1: your eyes or I guess the pocket watch would be

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Speaker 1: a weird uh technique. But from that same history dot

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Speaker 1: com article there uh she she talks about some of

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Speaker 1: the early attempts, like with electro convulsive therapy Lobotomyes, I

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Speaker 1: think we even talked about some of the lobotomy's episode

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Speaker 1: and they would give you a lobotomy for anything. Oh sure,

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Speaker 1: what about testicular transplantation, right, because that was a theory

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Speaker 1: from a doctor, an interochronologist name Eugene Steinach who thought

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Speaker 1: that your testicles were the root of the problem, Well

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Speaker 1: a lot of people did. There was like you could

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Speaker 1: have gay testicles literally and they would swap them out

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Speaker 1: for straight ones, right, And there's no I could not

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Speaker 1: find any evidence one way or the other that any

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Speaker 1: of these testicular transplants worked or were successful. I don't

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Speaker 1: think they were. But I didn't see anything that said

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Speaker 1: like all failed or whatever. But like what happened and

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Speaker 1: they just shrivel up and fall off or something? So

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Speaker 1: what do you mean if it actually like medically took

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Speaker 1: to the body or Yeah, that's what I mean. Okay,

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Speaker 1: saying like did it convert them? Did it work? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the answer. But yeah, I didn't know that you

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Speaker 1: could in the nineteen twenties testical transplant successfully. That's what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying, Like, I surely, I mean at some point

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Speaker 1: and we must have talked about this in the Michael

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Speaker 1: Um Dylan episode. Um we talked about the I don't

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Speaker 1: think it was but it wasn't a transplant. It was

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Speaker 1: just a straight up removal an orchiact to me, I

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Speaker 1: believe castration. So but at some point testicles have been

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Speaker 1: transplanted onto a person successfully. When did that happens? My question?

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Speaker 1: He probably did to a dog first. But I mean

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Speaker 1: think about it, like, if it didn't work, well, sorry

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Speaker 1: you're castrated now. Yeah. They probably didn't say sorry though,

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Speaker 1: but we took your gay testicles. The heterosexual testicles just

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Speaker 1: didn't pan out. But now you don't have any testicles,

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Speaker 1: gay or otherwise. That's right. Some of the other awful

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Speaker 1: techniques that they would use back in the day, um

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Speaker 1: were chemicals that they might have to make you wretch

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Speaker 1: and vomit when you look at, you know, pictures of

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Speaker 1: people of the same sex. It's called covert sensitization. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: or if you're cross dressing, maybe same thing, or look

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Speaker 1: in a mirror and be discussed it with yourself and

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Speaker 1: wretch and vomit. Yeah, I'm very sadly. If you have,

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Speaker 1: say like a UM as someone you're in a relationship

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Speaker 1: with that you love, they might show you a picture

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Speaker 1: of that person and um carry out aversive therapy or

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Speaker 1: aversive conditioning. Um, what's weird, As you said, these are

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Speaker 1: these are things they used to carry out. From what

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Speaker 1: I've seen, this stuff still goes on today, some of it.

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Speaker 1: So what we're talking about though, back in the nineteenth

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Speaker 1: and most of the first half or so of the

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Speaker 1: twentieth century this was all like the domain of psychology.

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Speaker 1: And then eventually gay psychologists and and other straight psychologists too.

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Speaker 1: We're basically like, this is wrong, Like the science is

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Speaker 1: not adding up. Um, this is just this is just incorrect. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there were medical doctors too though, wasn't just psychologists. So eventually,

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three, the American Psychological Association said, hey,

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Speaker 1: big news, We're no longer going to classify homosexuality as

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Speaker 1: a mental disorder. Right, And a certain part of the

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Speaker 1: population went, yeah, it's nineteen seventy two. Why did it

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Speaker 1: take this long? Right? Exactly? But that was a big deal,

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Speaker 1: and at that point a psychology mostly abandoned the idea

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Speaker 1: that being gay was a disorder of any kind, and

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Speaker 1: therefore there was no point in researching how to cure

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Speaker 1: someone of being gay, and so it turned its back

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Speaker 1: on this whole history of um conversion conversion. But it

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Speaker 1: didn't fully die away, and I believe starting in like

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Speaker 1: the eighties, the Christian rights started to kind of pick

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Speaker 1: up on it and kind of breathe new life into

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Speaker 1: it again. That's right, I think we should take a break. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a robust and a half set up? Is that?

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Speaker 1: Oh I thought we were already into it. Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just a setup. You're right, we'll be right

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Speaker 1: back shock alright. So let's talk a little bit about

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Speaker 1: because there's a couple of a couple of schools of

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Speaker 1: thought here, um, and I hesitate to one to call

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Speaker 1: the one more bona fide. But you know, there's conversion

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Speaker 1: therapy that can happen at a licensed therapist office. And

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Speaker 1: there's conversion therapy that can happen in you know, somebody's

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Speaker 1: basement or the basement of a church. I was going

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Speaker 1: to see basement to yeah, or a room. Couldn't have

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Speaker 1: to be a base, I know, but a basement makes

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Speaker 1: it seem surely sinister. That's probably why I said it. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So there are two sort of ways that can happen.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna talk a little bit about the first way.

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Speaker 1: Uh the patented way Reparative Therapy trademark by Joseph Nicolosi SR.

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Speaker 1: That guy doesn't even get the Italian accent, man, And

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Speaker 1: I don't blame me, he doesn't, which we should say,

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Speaker 1: by the way. In July this year, Amazon stopped carrying

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Speaker 1: his works on their website. Yeah, because they they considered them,

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Speaker 1: um that they promoted fraud, that's right, which we'll get to. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is interesting. But this guy is like a psychologist. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's He's a trained psychologist who basically said I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: take everything I learned and directed towards curing gay people

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Speaker 1: of being gay. Yeah. I don't know much about do

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Speaker 1: you know much about his religiosity or I think he

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Speaker 1: was Jewish okay and born in Brooklyn from what I understand.

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Speaker 1: I wrote a really really great um article, not a

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Speaker 1: think piece, but a memoir in the American prospect Um

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Speaker 1: from the American Prospector two twelve. Yeah, it's different by

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Speaker 1: Gabriel Urana. Okay. Um, it's called my so called ex

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Speaker 1: gay Life. It's definitely worth reading, but it's it's a

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Speaker 1: great look at um conversion therapy, but also is like

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Speaker 1: overlaid with his like personal experience with it. Okay. At

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Speaker 1: any rate, his contention was that, like we said, um,

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Speaker 1: you develop homosexuality or homosexual feelings at least because of

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Speaker 1: a result of environmental conditions childhood traumash and they call

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Speaker 1: it same sex attraction s s A, and that could

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Speaker 1: stem in his opinion from a few different things. Desire

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Speaker 1: for adventure, pure acceptance, uh, loneliness or boredom or curiosity,

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Speaker 1: um approval or affection from males. And a lot of

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Speaker 1: this is centered on men, although it's certainly women are

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Speaker 1: have been involved in this as well. Yeah, we'll get

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Speaker 1: to that. Yeah, but a lot of them are a

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Speaker 1: lot of this over the years is making gay men straight. Oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I see what you mean. Yeah, it's but it's not

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Speaker 1: exclusive to that. Uh, general rebellion, which is pretty funny.

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Speaker 1: And then uh, sexual molestation by another male, And I

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Speaker 1: think that is a very like I think that the

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Speaker 1: idea that that leads to being gay is very widespread

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Speaker 1: in culture, well beyond the Christian rioter people who believe

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Speaker 1: in conversion therapy, the idea that if you're sexually abused

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Speaker 1: by a man or somebody of your same sex, you

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Speaker 1: become gay, which is just wrong, but I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of people still believe that. I know, that's what

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Speaker 1: I thought when I was a kid. Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's not real, it's utterly wrong, but yeah, uh.

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Speaker 1: And the whole basis of Nicolosi's theory, he takes back

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Speaker 1: to a study from n called Demography of Sexual Orientation

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Speaker 1: and Adolescence. And this was an actual study from the

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Speaker 1: Journal Pediatrics that looked at patterns of sexual orientation high

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Speaker 1: school students in Minnesota. And what they found out was

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Speaker 1: that younger teens and Minnesota in this study, uh, we're

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Speaker 1: more likely to express sexual confusion about their orientation when

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Speaker 1: they were younger, and as they grew older, they were

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Speaker 1: less confused about their sexual identity and orientation. Right. And

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Speaker 1: that's a legit study. And I think that probably anyone

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Speaker 1: who's ever been an early teenager in a late teenager

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Speaker 1: can be like, that sounds about right, exactly you. But

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Speaker 1: the extrapolation that Nicolosi did was what the problem is, right,

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Speaker 1: So Nicolosi was saying, like, yes, that shows that like

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Speaker 1: you're you're, you're in a dangerous place earlier on, and

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Speaker 1: that if a couple of things happen in a certain way,

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Speaker 1: you can be veered off of this natural path towards

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Speaker 1: heterosexuality into homosexuality, right and also more dangerously that means

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Speaker 1: we gotta get them while they're young. Right. So um.

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Speaker 1: One of the other things that he's he really based

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Speaker 1: his practice on was this family tria of a domineering

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Speaker 1: over attendant mother, a passive detached father, and a sensitive

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Speaker 1: child in kind of in um, that's a good one

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Speaker 1: in that that um that triangle, like you would like

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Speaker 1: almost certainly have a gay kid if somebody didn't intervene.

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Speaker 1: So he decided like this was his career was intervening

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Speaker 1: in that kind of stuff. But that in and of

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Speaker 1: itself has never been proven to um create gay kids

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Speaker 1: like that, Like whether you believe in conversion therapy or not,

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Speaker 1: if you have a domineering mother and have some father

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Speaker 1: and you're like a sensitive type who likes dolls, even

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean you're gonna turn gay. This is the basis

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Speaker 1: of that though, is that yes you will turn gay.

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Speaker 1: And um still to this day this idea is allowed

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Speaker 1: to live because science is never fully satisfied the question

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Speaker 1: like are we born gay? Do we develop being gay?

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Speaker 1: And it looks like it's on a pretty strong track

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Speaker 1: towards a genetic basis of homosexuality, but it's still nothing's definitive,

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Speaker 1: and so people can say, well, maybe we do develop

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Speaker 1: you know, an adolescence you know, being gay or whatever,

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Speaker 1: because science is not filled this void credet. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: the way Nicolosi. Will would write about this stuff and

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Speaker 1: describe it as in a very sort of professional inaciost

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Speaker 1: type way, where a casual reader, uh might say, well,

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Speaker 1: this seems totally valid and above board. Yeah, Newsweek reader, yeah,

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Speaker 1: or an OPRAH viewer, that's right. Um, this is uh,

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Speaker 1: this is one of the things that I think. This

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Speaker 1: is from one of his books. Um. And this is

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Speaker 1: how he describes a relationship to from patient to therapists.

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Speaker 1: The client has come to the therapist seeking assistance to

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Speaker 1: reduce something distressing to him, and the RT psychotherapist agrees

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Speaker 1: to share his professional experience and education to help the

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Speaker 1: client meet his own goal. His own goal. The therapist

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Speaker 1: enters into a collaborate relationship, agreeing to work with the

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Speaker 1: client to reduce his unwanted attractions and explore his heterosexual potential,

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Speaker 1: which again, it seems very innocuous. Uh. And and and

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Speaker 1: there are plenty of cases where a grown man of

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Speaker 1: his or woman of their own um volition goes and

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Speaker 1: seeks this out. But what they don't say is what

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Speaker 1: happens many times is apparent forces their young child to

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Speaker 1: do this. So that's a big one. Yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: big one. In this Um, that American Prospect magazine. Uh,

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Speaker 1: the author was like in his early teens when he

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Speaker 1: went to Nicoloson's therapy. Um, but he said everybody else

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Speaker 1: in the group was in there, like forties or fifties.

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Speaker 1: So it's definitely both. But there's something here that's really

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Speaker 1: important because, like you said, if you just read this stuff,

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Speaker 1: it does sound innocuous. It's all very much based on

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Speaker 1: things like cognitive behavioral therapy like stuff that works, which

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Speaker 1: means that this works in a weird, twisted way, which

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about, but not in the way it's ultimately

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Speaker 1: meant to it. It's in a bent way. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: do you want me to explain now? I feel like

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Speaker 1: I should. I take issue with the word works at all.

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Speaker 1: There are situations where it might prevent someone from acting

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Speaker 1: on a homosexual impulse, That's what I mean. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: that doesn't change the nature of their sexuality. No, no, right,

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Speaker 1: And ultimately preventing someone or training someone to not act

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Speaker 1: on their sexuality is damaging in and of itself and

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Speaker 1: causes all sorts of other problems. But maybe good enough

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Speaker 1: for a really religious family, right you know. Yeah, Well

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Speaker 1: that's what I read is that over time, as the

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Speaker 1: Christian right adopted the idea of, you know, championing the

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Speaker 1: ex gay movement, that part of that was accepting gay

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Speaker 1: people who refrained from gay sex. So if you were like,

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Speaker 1: I'm gay, I'm never going to be straight. I tried,

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Speaker 1: but I don't have sex with men, but I won't

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Speaker 1: being welcomed in church. Yeah. So I was saying, though,

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Speaker 1: is with with Nicholoson's thing, that there's something fundamentally wrong

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Speaker 1: with it, and that if somebody came to you and said,

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Speaker 1: I'm tired of being white or black or Hispanic, I

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Speaker 1: can't stand it. You wouldn't say, oh, well, let's figure

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Speaker 1: out how to make you not black or white or

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Speaker 1: hispanic or straight. Let's figure out how to change you.

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Speaker 1: They would say. Any therapists worth their salt would say, well, no,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of great things about being white or black,

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Speaker 1: or Hispanic or straight, and let's focus on that so

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Speaker 1: that you can own your identity, the like conversion therapy does.

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Speaker 1: The opposite says, yes, let's figure out how to get

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Speaker 1: the gay out of you. Let's change your identity because

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Speaker 1: this group of society has said that it's unacceptable and

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Speaker 1: that is an extraordinarily damaging position to come from, and

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00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 1: that is the basis of conversion therapy. Yeah, and as

402
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Speaker 1: we'll see later on the a m a's official stance

403
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Speaker 1: is that it is and we'll read the quote later,

404
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Speaker 1: that it is a damage ng prospect right and and

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Speaker 1: creates real harm an American prospector. So this approach by

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Speaker 1: Nicolosi um has four steps to it. The first one

407
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Speaker 1: is interesting because it's the disclosure of the therapist personal, professional,

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Speaker 1: philosophical and religious views on homosexuality, which includes Nicolosi says, uh,

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Speaker 1: the gay affirmative therapist also discloses his philosophical views to

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Speaker 1: the client. But from a gay affirmative perspective, does he

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Speaker 1: just put that in there to like cover his baces. No,

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Speaker 1: it's true though, because you wouldn't send your your son

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Speaker 1: or daughter to a gay affirmative therapist to convert them

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Speaker 1: into right. And I think this is what he's saying.

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Speaker 1: You've been to therapy before, right, Sure? Have you ever

416
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Speaker 1: noticed that when you first your first session, the therapist

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Speaker 1: tells you a lot about themselves and what they think

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Speaker 1: about mental health or life or whatever. Yeah, And I'm

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Speaker 1: always like, wait to what about my problems. So we

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Speaker 1: were talking about me, I'm getting charge for this. I

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Speaker 1: don't care about your family. Um right, Uh, that's what

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Speaker 1: he's saying that they do. But because this is about

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Speaker 1: being gay, that's what they're going to talk about, their

424
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: views or whatever. Interesting They're going to share their opinions

425
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 1: of it, and that they think that there's problems with it.

426
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 1: You know what my line is at the therapist when

427
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: they do all that stuff. My great, that's really interesting

428
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: at the end, and like you want to start the

429
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 1: clock now right? Nice? Either that or I can pro rate. Uh.

430
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: Number two of the four steps is encouragement of the

431
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 1: client's inquiry, so basically asking the client the questions, examining

432
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: their feelings um to try and discover like what lies

433
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: beneath Number three, resolution of past trauma if it is,

434
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: in fact one of the reasons they suspect this person

435
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: has has gone down the road to homosexuality. And then

436
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: UM education regarding features of homosexuality, which includes everything from

437
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: what motivates you to do this? Two? You know that

438
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: if you are gay, then this lifestyle ends in a

439
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 1: very bad way for you, right that there's a lot

440
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: of physical harm, social harm, emotional harm, yeah. So what's

441
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 1: weird though, is like I can't Nicholas. He is like

442
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 1: a tough person to paint with just one brush. Even

443
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: though I totally disagree with what he did, A created

444
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: dedicated his career too. He doesn't seem, at least from

445
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 1: what I've read in including that American Prospect article from

446
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: somebody who was a patient of his for years, he

447
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to have been like any sort of evil

448
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: man or anything like that. Um. I I don't know

449
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: if he just thought like this was a real thing

450
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,360
Speaker 1: and he was really helping what But for example, there's

451
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: this one quote from from Gabriel Arianna who said that um,

452
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: he had been like experimenting with um sexual encounters with

453
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,360
Speaker 1: other men as a teenager. And he said that he'd

454
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 1: been meeting men off of the internet and he told

455
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 1: Nicolosi like he's like, I trusted the guy enough to

456
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: share this in therapy, and he said that Nicolosi told

457
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: he said, he told me to be careful meeting men

458
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: off the internet, but that I shouldn't dwell on it

459
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: or feel guilty. He said my sexual behavior was of

460
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: secondary importance if I understood myself and worked on my

461
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: relationships with men, the attractions would take care of themselves.

462
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: I just had to be patient, which is I mean,

463
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: that's a pretty great thing for a therapist to tell

464
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 1: a patient. Don't dwell on it, you know, don't feel guilty,

465
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: just you know, except it, move on and learn from

466
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: it or whatever. But then the second part, that's why,

467
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: And so the thing is with conversion therapy in most cases,

468
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: Nicolosi is like he's almost a shining example in a

469
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: weird way, whereas other people associated with it are It's

470
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: very easy to paint them with just one brush, you know.

471
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: So we should talk a little bit about the argument against,

472
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: a little bit more about the argument against, which includes

473
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: a little bit more history. Um. You know, we talked

474
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: about the earliest stages of conversion therapy in the late

475
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,959
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, but uh, it really kind of picked up

476
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: steam in the United States in the nineteen sixties. Uh,

477
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: when the Civil rights movement, you know, when gay people

478
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: started coming out of the closet more, presenting themselves more

479
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: in public, um, gay bars, popping up, things like that

480
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: Stonewall stonewall of course, Uh, which you know, anytime something

481
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: like that is becoming a little more accepted in the mainstream,

482
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: there's gonna be another side that really roots down and

483
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: digs in. And that's sort of how the modern gay

484
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: conversion therapy movement was born, was out of homosexuality becoming

485
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: more accepted. Yeah. I read a really interesting journal article,

486
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: UM from two thousand and seven by Robinson and Spivey.

487
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: It was in Gender and Society the journal, and UM

488
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 1: they based really they they looked into the ex gay movement,

489
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: not necessarily the psycho the psychology communities basis of it,

490
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: but the later on the adoption of it by the

491
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: Christian right. And they explained why the Christian right would

492
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: be interested in that, and they were interested in it

493
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: and dug in, like you said, because they saw homosexuality

494
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: and feminism in particular as signs of a decadent society

495
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: that would eventually cause us to crumble and collapse. And

496
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: that the the And this is according to Um Robinson inspired.

497
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: I haven't actually interviewed anyone on the Christian right who

498
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: believes this, but they are academics and this was a

499
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: pure view journal UM that the that masculinity is the

500
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: antidote to that, it's the antidote to homosexuality. It's the

501
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: antidote to feminism, and that it was up to each

502
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: man to be a strong leader among women and children

503
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: and to be as masculine as possible. That's how you

504
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: how you did that? Yeah, I mean I I went.

505
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: I heard sermons every Sunday, well not every Sunday, but

506
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: I heard sermons on many Sundays where uh they were

507
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: still saying wives submit to your husband's um straight out

508
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: of the Bible, um, you know. Yeah. And and like

509
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: most of the antidote is dad's you're being way too passive.

510
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: You need to step up and be the leader of

511
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: your family. But also moms you can help by saying, oh,

512
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: you have a question, ask your father. I defer to

513
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: your father. Go ask your father. And just yeah, being passive. Well,

514
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: which goes back to the that triad you mentioned earlier

515
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: about the domineering mother, the passive father equals gaps. That's

516
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: basically the basis of the whole thing. From what I

517
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: could tell is that at least among the Christian right,

518
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: that that if if the father is not the dominant,

519
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: in in leading figure in the family, that's where the

520
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: trouble comes from, and that can produce homosexual children. Interesting, Yes,

521
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 1: so something we we failed to mention as part of

522
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: the A M A s uh change in ninety two,

523
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: or was that the A p A A p A

524
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: um was they said, And this is an important distinction,

525
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: is that homosexuality they deemed a normal variation, not deviation,

526
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: but a variation in human sexual orientation, and like other

527
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: normal sexual orientations, can't be changed. In other words, you

528
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: can't make a straight person gay anymore than you can

529
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: make a gay person straight, is what that equals. And

530
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: because of that, as we'll see you later on, that

531
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: became the basis for this idea that conversion therapy is

532
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: um in essence of fraud, right, because it purports to

533
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: do something that can't be done. That's right. Should we

534
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: take another break? Oh? Man, really, they're coming hard and

535
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: fast like men's swinging sides and sweaty shirts on the field.

536
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, let's take another break and we'll talk about

537
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: what might happen in conversion therapy right after that. Soosh

538
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: and shock. Alright, Chuck, I'm excited about this part. You're

539
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: excited about the horror show of Persian therapy. It's not

540
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: all horror shows. Some of it is just alright laughable. Yeah,

541
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: so uh statistically. Also also, I'm sorry everybody. I want

542
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: to say something too. We typically try to be super objective.

543
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: This one is very tough. We have science on our

544
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: side too. This was really hard for me to research.

545
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: Nothing is ever hard for me to research. This one was.

546
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: It was like turning over a log and finding it

547
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: like Maggot's writhing underneath. That was what researching When this

548
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: one was like, I just kept putting it off and

549
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: just keep leaving it and just going and watching like

550
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: the Office or something like that. Just anything but researching

551
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: this because it's super sad. It is it's that that

552
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: children are taking at their most vulnerable time and adolescence,

553
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,760
Speaker 1: when they don't know what's going on, and they're told

554
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: that there wrong and they're sinning and their dirty that

555
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: is That is a part of why it's sad. Another

556
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: part to me of why it's sad is that the

557
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: idea that grown ups would direct this much thought and

558
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:39,720
Speaker 1: attention and effort into well slamming their head up against

559
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: a wall to try to change someone else to a

560
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: way they think they should be. That that, I think

561
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: is um that that's that's at least as sad to

562
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: me is your children being misdirected like this, because the

563
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: kid can go on and grow up and be like, jeez,

564
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: my family was super messed up. I'm really glad I

565
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: don't speak to them anymore because I'm much happier over year. Right. Um, Well,

566
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: that can happen in the ideal circumstances or the ideal

567
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: circumstances that the family is just like, hey, we're really

568
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: screwed up, We're really sorry. We love you no matter

569
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 1: who you are. But the idea that there's a group,

570
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: a social movement dedicated to just eradicating another group of people,

571
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: that I find that very hard to swallow. Yeah, agreed.

572
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 1: So apparently statistically about or close to seven hundred thousand

573
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 1: people in the United States have undergone conversion therapy, and

574
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 1: we should mention that, Uh, it's a real problem in

575
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: places like Africa and Asia and South America where you

576
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: can still be imprisoned for being gay, like Uganda is

577
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: a big, a big place for that. Conversion therapy is

578
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,800
Speaker 1: like on the rise in those places and other places.

579
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 1: But we're talking about the United States in this case

580
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: seven hundred thousand people. Um, And like we said, sometimes

581
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 1: it is in the with a license therapists sometimes it's

582
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 1: uh done by a religious advisor, uh in a basement

583
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: or at a church that you know what that reminded

584
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: me of is another thing we need to talk about.

585
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: Sometimes exorcisms, like church exercisms. We've done exorcism. We did

586
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: like straight up Roman Catholic exorcism. Okay, I'm talking like

587
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 1: the kind that somebody does in the basement of their

588
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 1: house because they're supposedly an exorcist or something like that.

589
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: Sure back door exorcism, basically black market. You'll see, you'll

590
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 1: be like, oh man, we should be talking about this,

591
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: all right. Well I agree already, I trust you so. Uh.

592
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: The A m A says that conversion therapy programs may

593
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 1: utilize harmful psychological techniques. Um. We were talking earlier about

594
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: aversion therapy. Uh. And given chemicals, they can still be

595
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: given um noxious stimulus. And I didn't see exactly what

596
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 1: that entailed or could entail. There was a guy named

597
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: Robert Gilbraith Heath who was the father of implanting electrodes

598
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: into the brain to deliver shocks, and one of the

599
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: things he directed that towards was curing gay people. I

600
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: don't think anyone in their basement is implanning electrodes or whatever.

601
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: But there are things like um uh, giving people like

602
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 1: nauseamit nausea inducing medications is one showing them pictures that

603
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: might nauseate them and then figure out how to associate

604
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: that with masturbating the thoughts of other men or something

605
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, I mean we should talk about a

606
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: few of these specifically. I mean all you have to

607
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: do is, uh, look up on a search engine conversion

608
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: therapy horror stories, and there are plenty of people out

609
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: there saying what happened to them. Yeah, look up also

610
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: conversion therapy, super happy fun stories, and you're going to

611
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: come back with almost nothing Google zero results. Uh. There

612
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: was one teenager who said that he was forced to

613
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 1: wear a backpack with forty pounds of rocks eighteen hours

614
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 1: a day to just signify the physical burden of being

615
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 1: at One person's family gave them a fake funeral, close

616
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: casket funeral in front of him, where they said that

617
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: he died of aids and they said their final goodbyes

618
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: because he went down the sinful path, pretending he wasn't there,

619
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 1: like that he was dead and in the casket, Yes,

620
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 1: talking about him in third person. That's right, um, his family.

621
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: One reporter being told to strip naked in front of

622
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: a mirror, uh and say disparaging things about themselves. I

623
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: just do that normally, though. Well. I did read one

624
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 1: account where they basically said the whole idea is to

625
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: break you down to nothing in the worst way possible

626
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: and then build you back up again and in the

627
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: image that they want. So I get the impression that

628
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 1: that is one route, but that is not necessarily what

629
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 1: you're going to get at any place you go for

630
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: conversion therapy. There are other ones that say that's the

631
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: problem is we don't know because so many people don't

632
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: talk about it. Um. There's some that that like you

633
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,720
Speaker 1: would go to that say okay, we're not gonna abuse

634
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: you or anything like that. But the base of our

635
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:06,240
Speaker 1: beliefs in this is that you you are gay because

636
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: either you had an absent father, a dominating mother, some

637
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: combination of the two, or you always like wanted to

638
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: be like loved and you know, popular among your male peers,

639
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 1: and you didn't get that. So now you are misdirecting

640
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: this need, this unmet need, toward having anonymous gay sex

641
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: on the dance floor with some dude in Miami or whatever. Um,

642
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: so we need to figure out how to meet that

643
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 1: need and have you hang out with guys who will

644
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 1: tell you how cool you are and how popular you are,

645
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 1: like tailgating or something kind of. And while we're at it,

646
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: we're gonna do that by by excending the masculinity. We're

647
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: gonna teach you how to be masculine so that you

648
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: can't hang out with dudes in the real world and

649
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: they will think you're cool. So things like, um, we're

650
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,399
Speaker 1: gonna teach you how to change the oil in your car.

651
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,760
Speaker 1: We're gonna teach you to sit without crossing your legs,

652
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 1: no joke. Um, there was a guy who teach a

653
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: man spread on the subway. There's a guy who's kind

654
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: of a prominent thinker. Uh, I think he was. I

655
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: saw him as a sexologist, maybe a Christian sexologist. Gerhardt

656
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: van den Ardluig. It's pretty great. I think I nailed it.

657
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 1: He said that, um, homosexual men need to unlearn avoidance

658
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 1: of getting their hands dirty doing man manual work like

659
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: chopping wood, painting a house using a shovel, and that

660
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 1: I say no thanks to all three chopped wood. That's

661
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: kind of fun. It is fun, and that not necessarily

662
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: just here's an axe, start chopping wood. You're gonna just

663
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: suddenly become cured. But that that is part of it.

664
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: And in this thought, this tech where they're not abusing you,

665
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 1: they're not degrading you or anything like that, they're teaching

666
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: you masculinity and manliness. That the ultimate aim and goal

667
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: of that is to go get married and have a

668
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: kid or kids, right, And that that is a a

669
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 1: big part of conversion therapy. It was for a very

670
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: long time, was saying you might still be gay or whatever,

671
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 1: but you're not really gay. You're now married and you

672
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: have a kid, and that is what you're dedicating yourself.

673
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: That's right. You're a wood chopping, football throwing dude with

674
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: a pencil than mustache. Oh no, no, not that. So

675
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy four, we should talk about George Wreckers.

676
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 1: He was a psychologist who uh, who tested um whether

677
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 1: or not this was an effective treatment, and uh, he

678
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 1: had a four He this wasn't his boy, but this

679
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 1: was his His client was a foreigner, I guess clients

680
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: a weird way to put it. This child was forced

681
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,399
Speaker 1: to go to this person at four and a half

682
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,800
Speaker 1: years old, and this is a boy manifesting quote childhood

683
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 1: a cross ginger identity. And they said this is based

684
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,879
Speaker 1: on the clothes, uh, that this boy wears. UM. And now,

685
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: of course looking at this, it was probably a transgender

686
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: child yeah, or gender fluid. Yeah. I mean it's hard

687
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: to tell because this and the way they wrote about it,

688
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 1: it's hard to kind of piece it together. Yeah. And

689
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: it's also like, just how much of this behavior did

690
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: this child exhibit? Like it makes it makes it seem

691
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 1: like this is all the kid did was act like

692
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: a girl when he was a boy. What else was

693
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: he into? What else? You know, It's just such a

694
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: narrow picture of the subject. Of course. So in the end,

695
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 1: records Um did something super damaging. He trained the boy's

696
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 1: mother to be the therapist, Like, here's what you need

697
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: to do so this kid can get therapy from you,

698
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 1: and basically punished feminine behaviors reinforce masculine behaviors, uh at

699
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 1: all times. And they said that, hey, this is working

700
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: because every time this boy gets punished for doing something feminine,

701
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: he stops and like chops wood or throws the football

702
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 1: and gets a reward. So because he's four and a

703
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,720
Speaker 1: half years old. He's doing the things that their parents

704
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: congrat elate him for and reward him for, and not

705
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: doing the things that he's getting punished for. And exactly

706
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 1: punishment is what stood out to me. It's just so

707
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: sad that the mother was instructed to reject him, to

708
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 1: basically ignore him when he acted like a girl, but

709
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 1: not ignore him like pretend it's not going on, like

710
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,280
Speaker 1: let him know that she is giving him the cold

711
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: shoulder and that that's how he learned um. And it's

712
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: just devastated. It's heartbreaking. And what's heartbreaking is this is used,

713
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: was was used as an example like see this works.

714
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: This four and a half year old is now acting

715
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: more masculine and is not going to grow up to

716
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: be gay. And uh this this child died by suicide

717
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: at the age of thirty. Like that's the end result

718
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: of this road. That's where it ends up. And that's

719
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: what I meant earlier when I said, like it does

720
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 1: kind of work because it follows psychological techniques that actually work,

721
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,359
Speaker 1: but it works in like kind of a bent way

722
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 1: where yes, you can train somebody, You can mold a

723
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: four year old to behave in a certain way by

724
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 1: conditioning them it's posable. You can get somebody to do

725
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: just about anything like that. But the ramifications, the results,

726
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 1: the damage to the individual's identity that will eventually come

727
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:14,760
Speaker 1: out later are widespread and sweeping. And that's the point.

728
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: That's why you shouldn't monkey around with somebody's identity using

729
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: proven psychological techniques. That's what's so evil about the whole thing. Yeah,

730
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 1: I mean, my daughter's forn to have had a hard

731
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 1: time even getting through this stuff. And then also if

732
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 1: somebody this is the other thing too, if you're a

733
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: conversion therapy advocate or activist or practitioner, and that you say, no,

734
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 1: there are people out there who are distressed, who are

735
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: experiencing psychological distress for being gay. Yes, that's true. I

736
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: guarantee that there are people like that out there, But

737
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: directing them towards working on not being gay is not

738
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: the answer. Go to regular therapy and learn to love

739
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: that you're gay, and go find a church that accepts

740
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 1: gay people. Their step two, because they're out there. Um,

741
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 1: let's talk about the science of it, because to a

742
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 1: decadent society. In two thousand nine, there was a report

743
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 1: from the a p A Task Force on Appropriate therapeutic

744
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: responses to sexual orientation. Quite a read, and um, this

745
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: was the actual final stance was sexual orientation change efforts

746
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: can pose critical health risks to lesbian, gay, and bisexual people.

747
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: Critical health risks, not emotional not I mean it's part

748
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: of emotional health too, but critical health health risks. And

749
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: if you read the the review of research and peer

750
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: reviewed literature and the findings of what it can result in,

751
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 1: it reads like the worst pharma ad disclaiming you've ever heard. Uh. Depression, guilt, helplessness, hopelessness, shame,

752
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: self hatred, hostility, dehumanization, betrayal, uh, social withdrawal, substance abuse, stress,

753
00:45:55,360 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 1: sexual dysfunction, loss of faith, and suicidality. Uh. And on

754
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: that last note, homosexual teens attempts suicide more often than

755
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: heterosexual teens. And then among those homosexual teens, you're twice

756
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,879
Speaker 1: as likely to try that if your parents have rejected you,

757
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 1: and three times as likely if you have undergone conversion therapy.

758
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 1: Three times as likely, yes, compared to a heterosexual team.

759
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 1: That's right, Well, you have it. That was just the

760
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: A P A. That a bunch of different associations like

761
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 1: legit medical and psychological associations have come out and condemned

762
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: in no uncertain terms conversion therapy and all of their

763
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: These condemnations basically follow two different texts. One, there is

764
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: no science backing up the idea that you can change

765
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: somebody from homosexuality to heterosexuality. And number two, there is

766
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: science backing up the idea that trying to do that

767
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 1: causes damage to the individual, So don't do that. And

768
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, some some countries and um

769
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: states in the United States have said, we're this is outlawed.

770
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: You can't do this anymore everybody, which is really touchy

771
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 1: stuff because again, the Christian right kind of adopted it,

772
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 1: and um and we don't we don't really infringe on

773
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,399
Speaker 1: religious beliefs. But that's how strong these condemnations have been

774
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:27,240
Speaker 1: that they're saying, we'll kind of start to wade into

775
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 1: that with this one. Yeah, and we'll we'll talk about

776
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: the legalities of recent years in a sect. But before that,

777
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:39,720
Speaker 1: between the seventies and the A p a S stance

778
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: changing things a little bit. Then through the eighties and nineties,

779
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: where conversion therapy was really sort of hitting its peak,

780
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: I think in America, there were a lot of there

781
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: were a few high profile cases that were exposed that

782
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: have helped sway things a little bit back to sanity.

783
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: So first they were more recent years. Yeah, so before

784
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: those high profile cases, and I mean right before him,

785
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: I think, in a coalition of church groups got together

786
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: and sponsored uh an ad campaign, something like a six

787
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 1: thousand dollar ad campaign, and things like the New York Times,

788
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: Los Angeles Times all this and these. This ad featured

789
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:23,479
Speaker 1: John and and I believe Anne Paulk, both of whom

790
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:27,359
Speaker 1: were formerly gay but were now ex gay. And Mary

791
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 1: did and had a kid and said gay conversion helps.

792
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:32,919
Speaker 1: And at the time, there wasn't a lot of inc

793
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: on the other side saying actually this is totally discredited.

794
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: And it captured everybody's attention. And this was when the

795
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: Christian wright came in and said we're gonna make this

796
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 1: huge push in the culture war, and it really worked.

797
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 1: That's when that Newsweek story came out. Yeah, they were

798
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: on the cover of Newsweek. He was the he was

799
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 1: a leader of an ex gay organization called Exodus International.

800
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: John Pauk was right, and it brought a lot of

801
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: poster boy yes and in x that this international in

802
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 1: particular became one of two main umbrella organizations. They were

803
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 1: kind of like the this I saw it put um

804
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 1: the spiritual version of this, the ex Gay movement, and

805
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 1: then something called NARTH the National Association for Research and

806
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 1: Therapy of Homosexuality, was like the scientific branch of the

807
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: ex gay movement and um so Exodus International became a

808
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 1: very well known prominent organization in the late nineties, but

809
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: within two three years it would be it would basically

810
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 1: be the poster child for how conversion therapy doesn't work

811
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 1: right because John Paulk is gay. In two thousand, just

812
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 1: two years later, he was uh photographed coming out of

813
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: a gay bar in Washington, d C. At the time,

814
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: he refuted that he didn't refute to do was there?

815
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 1: He said, what you always say, I didn't know it

816
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 1: was a gay bar. I went in there asking for directions.

817
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: I saw he went into use the bath room, So

818
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 1: either way, I just read the article. And then they

819
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 1: were like, but you're in there for a couple of hours.

820
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: Did you get the directions and use the bathroom? He

821
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 1: clearly says blue Oyster in neon. Have you not seen

822
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 1: the Police Academy movies? That was the name of it.

823
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 1: In the Police Academy, right the Blue Oyster bar uh

824
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,720
Speaker 1: and John Pauk we we should say, now lives life

825
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 1: as a gay man and is a chef. He's been

826
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:34,280
Speaker 1: on like some celebrity chef shows and he is, uh

827
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:36,919
Speaker 1: living his best life. He's living his best life from

828
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 1: from what it looks like. So he's no longer married

829
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:43,240
Speaker 1: any longer to Anne. Actually that I don't know, because

830
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 1: there are some well we'll keep going. I don't think

831
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: he is, but um, there are a couple of people

832
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:53,439
Speaker 1: that are. There was in two thousand three Michael Johnston. Uh.

833
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 1: He was another person touted as an ex gay success story,

834
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 1: founder of National Coming Out of Homosexuality A. Uh, he

835
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:05,720
Speaker 1: actually was. He was found out to be having sex

836
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: with men that he met online and uh infected them

837
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 1: with HIV. Very big deal. And then there's Ted Haggard

838
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:15,799
Speaker 1: of course in two thousand six. Yeah, he was a

839
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 1: preacher um and president of the National Association of Evangelicals,

840
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 1: or was at the time, I guess very much an

841
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: anti gay leader in in the religious circles. And this

842
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 1: one sort of unfolded little by little, like m Hey,

843
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 1: this guy came out and said this guy had a

844
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 1: relationship with me for like three years. We did crystal

845
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 1: meth together. And then Haggard came out and said, you

846
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:43,879
Speaker 1: know what I have to admit. I said, I bought

847
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 1: crystal meth, but I didn't use it. I threw it

848
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,879
Speaker 1: in the trash because I wouldn't succumb to the sin.

849
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: Did everybody said, yeah, he says he did buy crystal meth,

850
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,879
Speaker 1: and because I assumed there was proof and he said

851
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 1: that he didn't use it at all. He threw it

852
00:51:58,400 --> 00:51:59,839
Speaker 1: in the trash before he used it. Were the other

853
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 1: guy was like, no, we did tons of meth and

854
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:03,879
Speaker 1: head gay sex a lot. He said, I know he's

855
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: talking about. I'm like day four of us staying up.

856
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:08,800
Speaker 1: He like freaked out and threw it in the trash,

857
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: but then he went back and got it. Uh. And

858
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: the proof was that he paid for it by check.

859
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 1: Maybe no, no, probably not. I don't think meth dealers

860
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 1: take checks anymore anything. Uh. And then that was he

861
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,919
Speaker 1: was outed by a having a relationship with an underage boy,

862
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 1: a sexual relationship. This is Ted Haggard again. Yeah, and

863
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,720
Speaker 1: the boy sued and it was settled by the church

864
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 1: with a dollar figure. I think it's like a hundred

865
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: and eighty grand and then finally in two thousand eleven,

866
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 1: Ted Haggard comes out and it's like, all right, so

867
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: I did have a relationship with a boy, but we

868
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 1: never touched each other. I just masturbated in front of him.

869
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: And in thousand eleven he said, you know what, I'm bisexual.

870
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: I'm gonna admit it. I am bisexual, but I am

871
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 1: going to choose to live my life as a faithful

872
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: heterosexual husband to my wife. I wonder if after he

873
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 1: admitted that, um it came out as bisexual, what that

874
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: felt like, if he felt like a weight was lifted,

875
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: or if the anxiety associated with it was just so much,

876
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,759
Speaker 1: or you know what his wife knew or didn't know

877
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 1: or thought about it. It would be very curious to

878
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 1: know what that. You know, what life has been like

879
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: for him after that. I mean, he's a preacher again,

880
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 1: because I mean, more power to him. If he's like,

881
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 1: I'm a Christian and I'm just not going to have

882
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: gay sex, that that's as much a personal choice as

883
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,959
Speaker 1: having gay sex, you know. I mean, the whole underage

884
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 1: boy thing, that's a huge problem that I think I'm

885
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 1: hoping was addressed. But I wonder what his what his

886
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 1: life is like now? Oh, I mean he's like I said,

887
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: he's preaching again. I think in Colorado. He's probably a

888
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 1: stuff you should know. Listener Haggard right in, we'd like

889
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: to hear from me, sir, Uh, you want to talk

890
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 1: about the law, because right now there was one more chuck,

891
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: there's a big one, Alan Chambers. Yes. So John Pulk

892
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 1: when he was out at cruising the Blue Oyster in

893
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 1: DC back in two thousand, he was running Exodus International. Uh.

894
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 1: He was replaced a couple of years later by Alan Chambers,

895
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: And about a decade after Chambers took over Exodus International,

896
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 1: he said, I'm gay, I've been gay. Conversion therapy doesn't work.

897
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:29,320
Speaker 1: We're shutting down Exodus International, and I apologize to the

898
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 1: l g tb Q community. Yes. So, within about a

899
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 1: decade or so of the Christian Right adopting the ex

900
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 1: gay and conversion therapy pillar post as part of the

901
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:45,399
Speaker 1: platform for their Culture War, UM, the biggest organization, one

902
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 1: of two biggest organizations dedicated to conversion therapy said it

903
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 1: doesn't work. We're sorry gay people for all the damage

904
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: we've done. That's a pretty big turn of events. So, yes,

905
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 1: it's still continues. So that led to Yeah, so that

906
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 1: led to a bunch of laws that trying to keep

907
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:04,800
Speaker 1: it from continuing. Yeah, And the laws are basically usually

908
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 1: around miners, saying you cannot force a minor to do

909
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 1: something like this, not Hey, the whole thing is outlawed.

910
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 1: If you're an adult and you want to go do this,

911
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 1: then that's up to you. As of two thousand nineteen,

912
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:23,240
Speaker 1: this year, eighteen states in Washington, d C. And Puerto

913
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: Rico have similar bands enacted. UM. And also it's important

914
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 1: to point out that those bands are about the legitimate

915
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 1: scientific community, Like you will have your licensere vote doesn't

916
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 1: say anything about a preacher that you go to, or

917
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,279
Speaker 1: a youth counselor or any you know, sort of non

918
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 1: licensed church there. It's only scientists or licensed count counselors

919
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:51,399
Speaker 1: or psychologists or psychiatrists or doctors. I'm sure who can

920
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 1: lose their license if they practice, that's right. But yeah,

921
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:58,360
Speaker 1: that's that's because there's religious freedom. It's UM. I guess

922
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 1: if you can still do that to miners though, if

923
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 1: if it's a religious group doing it, that is what

924
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:08,400
Speaker 1: I'm not sure about. So for them, it depends on

925
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 1: the state. So there was a group or there was

926
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 1: a counseling UM organization called Jonah and Jonah Goldberd and Burke. Yes,

927
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: they ran JONAH, which stood for I can't find it anywhere,

928
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 1: I gotta hear Jews offering a new alternative for healing.

929
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:32,319
Speaker 1: Okay UM. They were not only found practicing in New

930
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 1: Jersey UM conversion therapy, so they both lost their licenses.

931
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:39,720
Speaker 1: They were also sued in a civil suit by former

932
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 1: patients for fraud and lost. It's interesting if you think

933
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: about it, Wait a minute, if this is not possible,

934
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: you're charging people for it. So they had like a

935
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: three and a half million dollar settlement levity against them,

936
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:53,919
Speaker 1: but and lost their licenses. But then they just set

937
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 1: up shop under another name, apparently the same year of

938
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:00,319
Speaker 1: the verdict in the civil suit. But for the most part,

939
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: if you're a state and you pass a law banning

940
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 1: conversion therapy to minors among medical practitioners or counselors UM,

941
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 1: the courts are going to uphold that law. Yeah, it's

942
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 1: been upheld in California, New Jersey. Most of the challenges

943
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 1: are on the grounds of free speech UM and the

944
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 1: New Jersey UH when they upheld the New Jersey or

945
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 1: maybe it was Maryland. The judge said, uh, we're not

946
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:31,439
Speaker 1: infringing on your free speech. You can say whatever you want,

947
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:35,720
Speaker 1: but you can't practice this therapy. That's different than free speech.

948
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: You can believe what you want, to say what you want,

949
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 1: but you can't do this as part of your licensed therapy.

950
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 1: It's the same thing as like if you UM, if

951
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 1: you carry out quack cancer treatments that is harmful, like

952
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:55,680
Speaker 1: you're poisoning your patients or whatever, and like they become

953
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 1: UM they lose the use of their arms and legs

954
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 1: because of a treatment that you gave them for cancer

955
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 1: that the American Medical Association has specifically said is damaging

956
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 1: and harmful. You're totally going to get held accountable for that.

957
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 1: You're lucky to just lose your license in that case.

958
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 1: This is the exact same principle. So UM in because

959
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 1: it deals mostly with miners, are exclusively with miners. The

960
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 1: course of upheld it. But New York City actually is

961
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 1: widely considered to have overstepped its bounds and actually misstepped

962
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:35,000
Speaker 1: in this kind of culture war about conversion therapy in

963
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 1: banning the practice among miners and adults, and that got

964
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 1: New York City sued, and New York City was like, well,

965
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court has actually gotten pretty conservative lately. I

966
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 1: don't know if we should test this. And they repealed

967
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 1: the band as a as a strategy right to keep

968
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 1: it from getting tested in the Supreme Court. But the

969
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 1: Supreme Court could say, no, all laws against conversion therapy

970
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: are unconstitutional. You can outlawed or bandon in any form. Yeah,

971
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 1: and I think the Supreme Court already refused to hear

972
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 1: one case which actually upheld the state's outlaw of right

973
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 1: conversion therapy. Yeah. Very interesting. There's a movie I haven't

974
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 1: seen yet called The Miseducation of Camera and Post. It's

975
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:19,400
Speaker 1: a two thousand eighteen film from the two thousand and

976
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 1: twelve novel by Emily dan F. Haven't seen it yet,

977
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 1: but it's about a girl who undergoes conversion therapy. And

978
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:31,840
Speaker 1: it's uh, Chloe Grace Mortz Moritz. I you know her,

979
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 1: I do. I can't put the face with the name,

980
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 1: but I know both. Yeah, you've seen her for sure.

981
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about arrested development, conversion therapy,

982
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 1: all that stuff, you can, well, I guess start researching online.

983
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 1: See what you think. And since I said, see what

984
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 1: you think, it's time for listening to mail. I'm gonna

985
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 1: call this complaint pedantic complaint. I right to complain. Josh

986
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 1: the episode on historic districts, you kept referring to them

987
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 1: repeatedly with the indefinite article and rather than A and

988
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 1: historic district. I said, And that's what he says. That

989
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 1: sounds unusual. I don't usually do that. Really, I guess

990
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 1: I was just being unconsciously correct. So is that correct? Yeah?

991
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 1: So what's the rule? I don't even know. Huh what

992
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:24,240
Speaker 1: I just said. That's the rule. That's the rule. What

993
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 1: I say, Okay, I'm trying not to exercise it too

994
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:31,960
Speaker 1: much only when I'm right. Joe says this. I realized

995
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 1: this infuriating practice has become popular in recent years in

996
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 1: the US. I feel passionately that it must be discontinued,

997
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 1: especially primarily by those voices are attended by large audiences

998
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 1: like you. You know, are no doubt a where the

999
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:48,240
Speaker 1: letter H as a consonant necessitate, necessity necessitating geez, the

1000
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 1: use of the indefinite article A rather than an citation.

1001
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 1: All grammar books, ever, I should limit the scope of

1002
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 1: my gripe with an important caveat Cockney's. They should probably

1003
01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 1: continue to say, and because they pronounced it historic. This

1004
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 1: guy doesn't even know that the rhyming slanging episode is

1005
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 1: coming out. How weird. But guys, that's not really right

1006
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:07,960
Speaker 1: right today, I love the show. I wanted to tell you.

1007
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 1: I wanted to wait for a halfway plausible pretense to

1008
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 1: make the email a little more fun, which I hope

1009
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 1: this has been any chance on an episode of How

1010
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:19,479
Speaker 1: Pedantry Works. Keep up the good work, Joe, He's spoken fun.

1011
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:21,960
Speaker 1: It turns out he's good peeps after all. Yes, is

1012
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 1: the end before an age? Is that a thing? Oh?

1013
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:26,920
Speaker 1: You know? That? Is it? Yeah? I think? Um. I

1014
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:29,680
Speaker 1: don't know if it's proper or not, but I understand

1015
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 1: where it comes from because the vowel that comes right

1016
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: after the age is usually so heavily pronounced in relation

1017
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 1: to how it's pronounced when it comes after other consonants

1018
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:47,640
Speaker 1: like an historic and historic district sounds and honor and

1019
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 1: honor a honor which one sounds better like I was

1020
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 1: bestowed in honor the other way? But you wouldn't say.

1021
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:58,120
Speaker 1: In high school I had a history teacher that was great.

1022
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 1: It's really weird. Did Joe tell you to say that? No,

1023
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 1: I just thought of it because historic history teacher. I

1024
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 1: had a historic Yeah, both work, how about this? We're

1025
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:15,600
Speaker 1: both right, Joe trying not to focus on such stupid stuff.

1026
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:19,360
Speaker 1: I'm curious if there is I really want another rule

1027
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 1: now because I know it's a consonant. But if people

1028
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:24,160
Speaker 1: are saying it these days, is that just some sort

1029
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:28,200
Speaker 1: of a fighting the system. That's the descriptivist way. The

1030
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:31,960
Speaker 1: prescriptivist is like, no, it's this way. Joe is the

1031
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:35,160
Speaker 1: prescriptivist here, or descriptivists? All right. I think we've proven

1032
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:37,600
Speaker 1: ourselves that maybe we should launch a side podcast called

1033
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 1: the Descriptivists. That's a good one, almost as like a

1034
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 1: Civil War era folk band field to it. We'd have

1035
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:48,040
Speaker 1: the curly cues that one. That's fine, We're not going

1036
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:49,880
Speaker 1: to do that. We could get fake ones that we

1037
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:52,959
Speaker 1: just took on and offer publicity fils, right, scout mob

1038
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 1: all right. If you want to get in touch of this,

1039
01:02:57,640 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 1: like Joe did, have a little quibble, a little gripe

1040
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 1: or praise or whatever, you can go on to stuff

1041
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 1: you should Know dot com and check us out. Our

1042
01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:07,560
Speaker 1: social links are all up there. You can also send

1043
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:10,680
Speaker 1: us an email to stuff podcast at i heart radio

1044
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of

1045
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 1: iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my

1046
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:21,640
Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1047
01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:26,440
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H