1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: we're back with part three in our series on throwing 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: behavior in animals, especially non human animals. But we'll be 6 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,639 Speaker 1: talking about throwing of the human variety some today. Now. 7 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: In previous episodes, we discussed a paper documenting a kind 8 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: of throwing or what appeared to be a kind of 9 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: throwing in octopuses in Australia, which used their siphons to 10 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: blast clouds of silt in their neighbor's faces when they 11 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: get a little too close. We discussed the ability of 12 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: elephants to throw with their trunks, and we talked about 13 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: mongoose is doing brutal reverse granny shots to bypass the 14 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: defenses of armored millipedes and as Mick Jagger would say, 15 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: get the meat. Uh. Today, our discussion continues with a 16 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: very important consideration. Well, when I told my wife that 17 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: this was the topic we're going to be covering, uh, 18 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 1: the question she asked was, well, what about air bud? 19 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: Are you going to talk about air bud? Handle the 20 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 1: air bud question a very important facet of this issue. Yes, 21 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: Airbud is, of course a motion picture about a dog 22 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: that plays competitive basketball based on the At this point, 23 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: I think classic sports movie trope. There's nothing in the 24 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: rule book that says a blank can't play whatever the 25 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: sport happens to be, and you can put into that 26 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: blank basically any animal, whatever animal seems doable from a 27 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: movie making standpoint and acceptable to the human imagination. And 28 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: I guess you could ultimately go beyond the realm of 29 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: humans into other things as long as you could somehow 30 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: cobble together a script around it. Yeah, I don't know 31 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: if I've ever seen another one of these. I think 32 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: I saw air Bud when I was a kid, But uh, 33 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: I know it's a tradition right there. You know, there's 34 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: a million movies like Aramy the Football Horse. Well, yeah, 35 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: I think one of the earliest, if not the earliest, 36 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: examples of this. And I could be wrong, because this 37 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: is not a subgenre that that I have personally explored 38 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: a lot. But I do remember seeing parts of this 39 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,519 Speaker 1: one on TV the nineteen seventy six movie Guts, which 40 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: also had Ed Asner and don not sent it to 41 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: give you an idea of the you know, the caliber 42 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:23,679 Speaker 1: of talent that was that was involved in this, But 43 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: it was about a terrible NFL team. I think there's 44 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 1: something like the California Atomics or something, and they end 45 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: up deciding to field a donkey as a kicker in 46 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,519 Speaker 1: the game, and uh, um, I guess it works out 47 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 1: for them. Again, there's a there's nothing in the rule 48 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 1: book that says a donkey can't play in NFL. Yeah, 49 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: I I imagine movies like this must just encourage and 50 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: uh an overly stringent form of legalism when it comes 51 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: to professional sports. Yeah, Like does it say games must 52 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: take place on planet Earth and so forth? Yeah? Yeah, 53 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: they will the at this point really the future proof things. 54 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: But if we're going just based on these films, it 55 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: would seem that for a while they didn't have all 56 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: the loopholes filled in on this and um, and people 57 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: were just constantly rolling out new animals, Like it doesn't 58 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 1: anything about about art varks. So art varks are in 59 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: play in Professional Curly, yes, okay, But outside of Gusts 60 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: and air Bud, you also have movies like two thousand's 61 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: m v P Most Valuable Primate, in which a chimpanzee 62 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: play soccer. There are also I think thirteen additional Air 63 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: Bud sequels and spinoffs. Humans are also primates. All existing 64 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: soccer players are primates. Well, tell the producers of m 65 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: v P Most Valuable Primemate about that. Um, maybe they 66 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: maybe they actually touched on in the scramplay, but I 67 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: doubt it. But I'm sorry you were saying. How many 68 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: air Bud movies are there? Thirteen by my count, that 69 00:03:53,280 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: includes the Air Buddies uh like spinoff series and interestingly enough, 70 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: two thousands sixes Air Buddies. That was Don Knott's final film. 71 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: He voiced a bloodhound in it. Oh, now, I don't know. 72 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: Does that that means animals talk in Air Buddies. I 73 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: don't know if animals talked in air Bud. Perhaps you remember, 74 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: I don't mean I'm inclined to think not. I think 75 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: the dog in air Bud was silent. But yeah, well, 76 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 1: by by the time they get into the Buddies movies, 77 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: which by the way, descended into titles like Space Buddies 78 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: and Santa Buddies. As far as I can tell, these 79 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: are just an excuse to have a screen full of 80 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: Golden Retriever Puppies for eighty minutes. I think it is 81 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: absolutely crass mercenary filmmaking. It's just ultimate cute exploitation. Um. 82 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: But this was also the series that in a episode 83 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: long ago, we suggested should do a crossover with the 84 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: Clive Barker verse and create hell Buddies. Now. There's also 85 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: just real quick a few other mentions. There's Soccer Dog, 86 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: the movie, There's two thousand fives the Karate Dog, And 87 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: then there's the movie Ed in which a chimpanzee plays baseball. Oh, 88 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: and then there's Matilda about a boxing kangaroo. That one, Uh, 89 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: that one has interested me because I noticed it stars 90 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: Elliott Gould and it was also one of the films 91 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: you could pull up on the Criterion Collections UH streaming 92 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 1: service at least several months back. Boxing Kangaroo? Is that 93 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: a waltzing Matilda Joe? Um, I imagine so, and it's 94 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: it's I looked a little bit into this related to 95 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: this podcast episode, and I quickly realized, oh, well, the 96 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: boxing kangaroo is a whole thing unto itself. UM. That 97 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: does have some basis in kangaroo behavior, but often in 98 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: like a misinterpretation of kangaroo defensive behavior, but it has 99 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: kind of like a life of its own outside of 100 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: this particular picture. Might be something to come back to 101 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: in the future. Now, one more thing about the air 102 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: Bud franchise. You know, before they get to air Buddies, 103 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: I think you were saying that the Golden retriever end 104 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: up doing a bunch of different sports, and they've all 105 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: got puns in the titles. So the one where air 106 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: Bud does baseball is called air Bud Seventh Inning Fetch. 107 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: You gotta get some puns in there, all right. But 108 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: but bringing it all back around to today's episode, Okay, 109 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: some of these we can just instantly dismissed for now. 110 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: We don't need to concern ourselves with boxing kangaroos or 111 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: karate dogs because these do not involve throwing. You know, 112 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: we're gonna focus on the sports that involve throwing a ball. 113 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: Um Gus, that's impressive, but he's a kicker. Despite just 114 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: participating in a game that has a lot of throwing 115 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 1: in it doesn't seem to be throwing anything. So we 116 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: really only have to worry about the concept of dogs 117 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: playing scoring games with balls and chimpanzees playing scoring games 118 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: with battles. Real quick, let's talk about dogs, um and 119 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: and you may have additional expertise on this uh to 120 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: throw in here experience uh from being a dog owner. 121 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: But as far as dogs go, they can obviously be 122 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: trained to do a lot of different things, often very 123 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: impressive things, including chasing, after catching, and fetching balls and sticks, 124 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: and as is evident in many videos online, they can 125 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: also be trained to bounce basketballs into baskets off of 126 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: their their noses, off of their snouts. That always, I 127 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: don't know, Like a basketball is a fairly massive object. 128 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: I would think booping a basketball in mid flight with 129 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: the snout would really kind of hurt. Yeah, I'm not sure, 130 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: but I looked around. And as far as dogs throwing, 131 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: I'm not so certain about this. Drops. Yes, they can. 132 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: You know, you'll see plenty of examples of dogs catching 133 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: things dropping them. Um, But I'm not sure. I'm not 134 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: sure you really have anything like throwing even kind of 135 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: you know, a tossing aside of a stick or a ball, well, 136 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: not targeted throwing. I mean, I think what's quite common 137 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: for dogs is something more like what the mongoose did 138 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: with the millipede. Dogs will especially dogs that have been 139 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: trained in kind of unused torual environments with say a 140 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: a puzzle type treat retrieval toy. You know, so you 141 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: have like some kind of toy where the treat is 142 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: hidden inside, and the dog has to manipulate the toy 143 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: to get the treat out of the middle. In those cases, 144 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: I've seen dogs throwing the toy in order to try 145 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: to extract the treat, but it's very haphazard. They're not 146 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: like hitting a target. They're more just kind of like 147 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: throwing it wildly by tossing their head and it'll bounce 148 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: off the wall or something, and maybe the treat will 149 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: tumble out. Mm hmm. Now, I also found some some 150 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: discussions and some papers about the possibility that a dog 151 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,719 Speaker 1: using a chewing stick is essentially a form of tool use, 152 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: and this would also apply to any other animal that 153 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: uses a stick in such a fashion. Uh So that's 154 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: an interesting idea to consider. Mm hmm. Yeah, you can 155 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: make that argument, I guess by the same token, you 156 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: could say like a bear scratching its butt against a 157 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: tree would be a form of tool use. Chimps, however, 158 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: chimps are a different case entirely so We're not saying 159 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 1: that chimpanzees should be encouraged to play baseball or soccer 160 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: or any other professional sport, or any sport for that matter, 161 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: but they have certainly demonstrated their use of tools in 162 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: both captivity and in the wild. And this includes the 163 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: targeted use of throwing objects. Now, one of the objects 164 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: or or substances I guess observed to be thrown a lot, 165 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: and this is something that is of course well documented online. 166 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: In fact, when we were researching other aspects of animals 167 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: throwing things, some of the search engines I I was 168 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: using were very excited to give me content of animals 169 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: throwing feces, potentially particularly chimps throwing feces. I was not 170 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: looking for this information at the time, by the Internet 171 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 1: really wanted to serve it to me. Now, this kind 172 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: of goes back into something we talked about earlier though, 173 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 1: the question if you're doing something with something that came 174 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 1: from your own body, is it truly tool use? I 175 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, I guess when I was thinking 176 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: about substances that come out of an animal's own body, 177 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: I was thinking about like things like spider silk, or 178 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: like the urdicating hairs that come off of a tarantiala's back. 179 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: Where the ways in which these substances are used are 180 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 1: not very generalized, They're not very free form. Instead, they 181 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: seem to be pretty tightly controlled, instinctually determined behavioral patterns, 182 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: whereas I don't know, you could say, maybe like a 183 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: chimpanzee pooping and then throwing its poop at someone or 184 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: something that that seems to be a little more free form. Yeah, 185 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: I guess also, and this is not something that any 186 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: of the papers I looked at got into, but I 187 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: guess there there's a difference between poop directly delivered to 188 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: the hand and then thrown, and like poop that is 189 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: just like say, in a creature's habitat or in its 190 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: general area that it then picks up. Uh maybe not 191 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: even its own poop. Um, So I guess we'd have 192 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: to consider that as well. Now, I do think we 193 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,599 Speaker 1: should be clear that feces are not the only objects 194 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: that that apes like chimpanzees throw, but is a feces 195 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: are often observed to be thrown, especially in captivity. I 196 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: think yes, yeah, definitely. Uh, the sources I was looking at, 197 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: they're definitely mentioning this because in captivity, especially historically, there 198 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: are often less things for the animal to interact with. 199 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: The poop is something that will happen eventually, will be 200 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: in the enclosure, and therefore is available to pick up, manipulate, 201 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: and throw if desired, whereas in the wild there are 202 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 1: other competitors out there, the other things that could pick up, 203 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: like sticks, like rocks that could be thrown, and we 204 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 1: have seen them throw such objects both in captivity but 205 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: also in the wild, and so it seems to be 206 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: a situation where they're they're far more incidents of poop 207 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: throwing in captivity versus the wild, though they have been 208 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: observed to throw poop in the wild as well. So yeah, 209 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: I guess I would not disqualify something from counting as 210 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: tool used just because it consists of an animal's own 211 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,199 Speaker 1: excreta or something that came out of their body. I mean, 212 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: you could use poop, I suppose a tool for all 213 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: kinds of things. Yeah, yeah, this is kind of a tangent, 214 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: but I was looking around and back in seventeen, a 215 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: team from the University of Calgary hosted a competition to 216 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: make use of astronaut waste, and the winning submission was 217 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: titled Astroplastic from Colon to Colony, in which the d 218 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: n A of an E. Coli bacteria was modified so 219 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: that it removed acids from human feces and they did 220 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: not use actual poop in the experiment, used like a 221 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: mixture of things to simulate poop. But the idea was 222 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: here that this, uh, this, this modified E. COOLi would 223 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: produce a plastic that can then be used in a 224 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: three D printer to produce simple tools like wrenches and 225 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: screw drivers. So the aim here would be sort of twofold. 226 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: So say you're going to Mars on an extended mission. 227 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: This way you don't have to bring those tools with you, 228 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 1: you don't have to pay for the cost of getting 229 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: those tools into orbit and then two Mars and then 230 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: likewise you have to worry less about getting rid of 231 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: human waste on the journey. Uh. That that's quite brilliant. Yes, 232 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: I one day hope to have all kinds of plastic 233 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 1: tools and toys made out of poop. Now, um, this 234 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: is this is sort of another aside, but this is 235 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 1: goods Back to chimps specifically, Uh, you might even get 236 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: into the question of why did chimps throw poop um specifically, 237 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: even if they have a choice of their objects to throw. 238 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,199 Speaker 1: And I found this rather fascinating older paper. This from 239 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: it is UM, a Russian paper titled UM a neglected 240 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: form of quasi aggression in apes Possible relevance for the 241 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 1: origins of humor. This is the current anthropology and I'm 242 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: just going to read a quote from it here. According 243 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: to people working at the Pavlov Center, at least four 244 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: adult chimpanzee mails and one adult female would also throw 245 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 1: feces at people, expressing joy when the target was hit 246 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: by making a playface, hooting, clapping, and stamping around. They 247 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: did not, however, throw feces at persons of whom they 248 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: were afraid. We have received the same information from people 249 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: in charge of chimpanzees at the St. Petersburg and Moscow 250 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: zoos at the Moscow Zoo. The same behavior was observed 251 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: in orangutanks. So at least in these cases, the chimpanzees 252 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: seem to get a real hoot out of hitting somebody 253 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: with some poop. Yeah, And and again this is older research, 254 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: and I detect at least a little bit of anthropomorphizing here, 255 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: But the distinction about fear was very interesting. So maybe 256 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: in this we do see the roots of something like humor. 257 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: But elsewhere primatologists do seem to agree that throwing poop, stones, sticks, 258 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: et cetera in primates is often a an act of 259 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: communication which matches up with some of the things we've 260 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: been discussing elsewhere in this series, and that we will 261 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: get to in a little bit when we talked about 262 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: human evolution. Yeah, and with chimps, it's not even uh, 263 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: it's it's not even a case of like necessarily purely 264 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: spontane is communication. Like it's easy to I think, to 265 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: make that leap. You think of like an animal trying 266 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: to say something, not having the ability to say it, 267 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: or having difficulty relaying that message, and then sort of 268 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: sort of spontaneously picking something up and throwing it, or 269 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: perhaps it already has something in his hand and it 270 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: throws it. And this would still be very fascinating. I mean, 271 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: even if you think of like a zoo environment, for example, 272 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: the chimp is attempting interspecies communication. Uh, even if that 273 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: interspecies communication consists of throwing a rock or some poop 274 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: at somebody, But it's not always spontaneous. Sometimes it is 275 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: premeditated in the case of of stone throwing that's been observed. 276 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: One of the the more famous examples of this was 277 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: Santino the chimpanzee born in nine eight, who made headlines 278 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: multiple times, and I think sometimes the news cycle would 279 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: come back around to him because in addition to being 280 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: a pretty talented artist, he also has some issues with people, 281 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: like to collect stones ahead of time so that he 282 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: could throw them at visitors to the Fruvik Zoo in Sweden. 283 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: Now that's really interesting that the collecting of stones in 284 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: advance aspect, because of course that indicates some kind of 285 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: forethought or premeditation or planning, like seeing the stone as 286 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: a tool for future use in a moment when it 287 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: is not currently needed for that use. Yeah, and apparently 288 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: wasn't an isolated incident. It said that he planned hundreds 289 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: of stone throwing attacks on zoo visitors over the years. 290 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: Um Sadly, he escaped from his enclosure in December two 291 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: and was subsequently shot along with some other escape piece, 292 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: which was a pretty controversial incident. Recently, there's a fair 293 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: amount of coverage about that, but not I don't think 294 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: everybody necessarily connected that this was the same chump that 295 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: had made headlines in the past for the throwing of 296 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: rocks and for art apparently and for our Yeah, you 297 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: can find videos of him online doing some uh some painting, 298 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: manipulating of pigments on the on on a on a 299 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: canvas to create some interesting works. Well, sad in for Santino, 300 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: but let an interesting life. Thank thank Now There's another 301 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: interesting wrinkle in stone throwing with chumps that I was 302 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 1: reading about, because in the wild, chimps will also engage 303 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: in what is called accumulative stone throwing, as reported by 304 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: cool at All in Nature Scientific Reports back in twos sixteen, 305 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: Modern chimpanzees will will actually create stone accumulation sites that 306 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: are reminiscent of human cairns, of of human um assemblages 307 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: of stone, something that we often associate with like deliberate 308 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 1: cultured acts of of human behavior, uh something. And this 309 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: is both from from an archaeological standpoint, when archaeologists find 310 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: examples of domes that have been gathered together in one area, 311 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 1: and also I think we just individually encountered this as well, 312 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: whether you see piles of stones that are put there 313 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: for a purpose, like perhaps you're on a nature walk 314 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: and these stones are are gathered together to help mark 315 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: the path you're supposed to be on, or you often 316 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: see this done out of for for pure amusement. Um 317 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,479 Speaker 1: At times you'll just find places where humans have been 318 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 1: around multiple stones and there's like kind of this irresistible 319 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: urge to arrange them or stack them up. Yeah, and 320 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 1: so it's interesting, but I also am hesitant to make 321 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: the speculative leap here. I mean, I know, I was 322 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: reading about this paper, and I know what some people 323 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,719 Speaker 1: have said about the you know, the accumulation of stones, 324 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: like throwing stones into the into a hollow tree or 325 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: something until they really pile up. That suggests, well, maybe 326 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: they're creating some kind of like ritual monument, like you know, 327 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: like humans would create a care and for some kind 328 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: of purpose to be observed and to mean something. I 329 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: don't think there's really evidence present to jump to that 330 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: kind of conclusion, because that seems like a different order 331 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,199 Speaker 1: of uh, that symbolic behavior that, as far as I know, 332 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: is probably only the province of humans. But I guess 333 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: we could always be surprised. It seems kind of a 334 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 1: speculative leap to me, but it's still really interesting behavior. Nonetheless, 335 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: I mean, the the the chimpanzee is piling up the 336 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: stones for some interesting reason, even if it's not to 337 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: like create a symbolic marker for other chimpanzees to see. Yeah. Yeah, 338 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: So this particular paper they're drawing on various surveys and accounts, 339 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: and they found four populations in West Africa where chimps 340 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: quote habitually bang and throw rocks against trees or toss 341 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: them into tree cavities, resulting in conspicuous stone accumulations at 342 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: these sites. Um. They point out that chimps, along with 343 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: capuchin monkeys and long tailed macaques, are known to use 344 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 1: stones as hammers to crack open encased foods. Uh. They 345 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,959 Speaker 1: point out that stone throwing and chimpanzees was first described 346 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: by Jane Goodall documented aimed throwing of sticks and rocks 347 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 1: by male chimpanzees during agonistic displays, and this behavior was 348 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: later described by researchers for other non human primates as well, 349 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: including Japanese macaques, wild baboons, and capuchin monkeys. Yeah. Female 350 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: bearded capuchins have also been observed to throw rocks during 351 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 1: courtship interactions. Um, which I guess this is would be 352 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: like tenderly throwing pebbles against a window to get their 353 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: lover's interest at night without awakening the parents downstairs, or 354 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: maybe not I like it, but human metaphors aside, I mean, like, 355 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: it is interesting that they would throw rocks at each 356 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: other for apparent purposes other than threats or intimidation. Yeah, again, 357 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: coming back into like the communication aspect of it. Um. 358 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: Now I mentioned the using using some sort of nutcracking 359 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: um behavior with rocks that can sometimes lead to those 360 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: rocks accumulating in certain places, which is a different type 361 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: of accumulation versus what we're talking with the chimps here um. Also, 362 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 1: the paper points out that Japanese macaques engage in stone handling, 363 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: which isn't tool of use but solitary object play behavior, 364 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 1: and it actually results in use wear patterns on the stones, 365 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: and the stones will then end up accumulating at quote 366 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: unquote PlayStations. So just sort of like handling manipulating a stone, 367 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: not really doing anything in particular with it. Yeah, yeah, 368 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: which is I get. You know, it's like the monolith 369 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: hasn't really kicked in yet, but but they're but they're 370 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: handling the stone. But chimpanzees are well beyond all of 371 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: these like, the chimpanzees are second only to humans in 372 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: the variants of their tool usage. They make use of 373 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: simple sticks, stone hammer, stone cleavers, to linked to to 374 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: cut foods. Uh. They've even been observed to hunt sleeping 375 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: bush babies with wooden spears. So this is I think 376 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: only been observed in female chimpanzees. But they'll take take 377 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 1: a stick and sort of sort of sharpen it at 378 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: their their teeth or chew on it, you know, to 379 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: get a something like a point, and then use that 380 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: stick to stab into the hollows of trees where there's 381 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: a sleeping bush baby and spirit and pull it back 382 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: out to eat. There's so many surprising little little cases 383 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: of of tool uisu pro to a tool used to 384 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: behavior in chimpanzees like this. Now, this this paper basically 385 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: comes down to two hypotheses about why the chimps do this. 386 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: The first, and I think the main hypothesis is that 387 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: they accumulate stone throwing behavior as a modification of male 388 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: chimpanzee display. This would make it mean that it would 389 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: be kind of like a an addition to their hand 390 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: and foot drumming, uh, which is you know, ritualized behavior 391 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: found in all known chimpanzee populations and the use of 392 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: the stones. Throwing the stones um into a pile, into 393 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: the hollow of the tree, et cetera, would be a 394 00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: way of enhancing um this particular activity. That's and oh yes, 395 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: so like hitting a pile of stones with a stone 396 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: would probably make a louder sound than just throwing a 397 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: stone off into the dirt. Yeah, I I don't think. 398 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: I don't. I would not feel comfortable going as far 399 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 1: to say that they're making music, uh, though I think 400 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: I saw some headlines that that we're going in that direction. Uh. 401 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: They also say that the second area to consider this 402 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: that they could also not be male drumming. But if 403 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: it's not that it would mean that it quote may 404 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: need to be considered in a more symbolic context. And 405 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: and I think this is where things would get a 406 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: little foggier, a little potentially more nebulous, because you're getting 407 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: into this area where there is a connection between quote 408 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: ritualized animal behavior and the repeated stereotype behavior is commonly 409 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: observed during human rituals unquote, which granted that could cover 410 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: a great deal of ground. This is what I was 411 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: alluding to earlier that I mean, it seems like an 412 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: interesting possibility, but I think I'd need more evidence that 413 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: that's really the right way to think about it. Yeah, 414 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: And I think I think it's basically what the authors 415 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 1: here we're leaning towards. Like, It's like, if it's not 416 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: just part of the hand and foot drumming of the 417 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: male chimps, then it's something else, and that's something else 418 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: will require more research and more observation. Yeah, but a 419 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,959 Speaker 1: really interesting behavior either way. Yeah. And one thing they 420 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: point out is that it could have some great importance 421 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: not only for our understanding of how chimps behave, but 422 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 1: also archaeologically. When we find piles of stones and things that, 423 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: again we can often easily associate with with human intention, 424 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: it could be something else. It could be chimps in 425 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: in a or or you know, some other human ancestor 426 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: engaging in some sort of display that involves accumulating throwing rocks. Yeah. 427 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: Well it forces us to be humble about interpreting archaeological 428 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 1: evidence because I think we we we tend to always 429 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,479 Speaker 1: want to say, oh, if we find a non natural 430 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 1: assemblage of stones or something like that, you assume it 431 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: must have an almost kind of like industrial purpose. You know, 432 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: it's used for wrecked survival benefit, maybe in the manufacture 433 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: of tools or something like that, which which of course 434 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 1: could be possible. Or the other side is people tend 435 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 1: to jump to religion, you say, is ritual use. But 436 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: then there are these cases that we observe in non 437 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: human primates today where it's like, it's not even clear 438 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: what this is for. Yeah, but I wanted to now 439 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 1: address the topic of the evolution of throwing in humans 440 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: because to the extent that animals throw, and we know 441 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: from everything we've looked at in these episodes that many 442 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 1: many non human animals do throw, they don't throw like 443 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: we do. No animal out there comes anywhere close to 444 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: the combined levels of force and target precision that humans 445 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: are capable of. And to further explore this, I was 446 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: looking at an interesting paper by Michael P. Lombardo and 447 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: robert O. Deaner published in the Quarterly Review of Biology 448 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: called Born to Throw The Ecological Causes that shaped the 449 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: Evolution of Throwing in Humans. Now, I'm not going to 450 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: address all the sub topics in this paper, but wanted 451 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 1: to pull out some highlights that I found really interesting. 452 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: So the authors begin by identifying two major turning points 453 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: in the relationship between human anatomy and human behavior that 454 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: sort of drove the evolution of the modern human body. 455 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: And they identified the shift to bipedal locomotion, of course 456 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: is is well known, but also the development of forceful 457 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 1: overhand throwing, and they argued that the former has gotten 458 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: a lot more attention than the ladder, but the ladder 459 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: might be considered equally important, if not more so. There 460 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: are other animals that throw in various scenarios, as we've documented, 461 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 1: but humans are the only primates that can be observed 462 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: to regularly throw targeted projectiles in order to kill or 463 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: cause injury to another animal. And I think also it's 464 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: worth noticing not only how much better we are throwing 465 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: than other ammals, but how this is pretty much the 466 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 1: only feat of physical strength. They're one of the only 467 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: feats of physical strength where we surpass our closest primate relatives. 468 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,479 Speaker 1: So compared to other primates like chimpanzees and guerillas, humans 469 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: are incredibly weak. The author's site some research. It's older 470 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 1: research from ninety six, attempting to quantify the difference between 471 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 1: the you know, like the arm strength of a chimpanzee 472 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: versus an adult human. And this, this older study concludes that, 473 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: controlling for body size, an adult male chimpanzee is on 474 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: average roughly four times stronger than I fit adult human male. 475 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 1: Now this is probably a very approximate, guest, but I 476 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: think it is utterly uncontroversial to say that chimps are 477 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: way way stronger than humans. At chimpanzee could probably just 478 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: rip your head off. Oh yeah, And I've seen some 479 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: images of of hand. I can't recall of it was 480 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: a hairless gorilla or a hairless chimpanzee, but it allows 481 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: you to really see the muscle definition, and it was. 482 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: It was terrifying how how ripped this creature was. However, 483 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: despite being several times stronger than human on average in 484 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: a general since their muscles are just stronger, a chimpanzee 485 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: is several times weaker than even an adolescent human when 486 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: it comes to forceful overhand throwing. Uh. And I was 487 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 1: looking to try to find uh this comparison quantified. I 488 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: did find it in the work of a Harvard researcher 489 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: named Neil Thomas Roach, who studies the evolution of high 490 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: speed throwing. I'm going to come back to some research 491 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: he was involved in. In a minute, but just quickly here, 492 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: Roach cites figures that even an adult male chimpanzee who 493 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: has specifically been trained to throw a ball, so this 494 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: is not just a naive chimpanzee has never done this before. 495 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: This is one who you know, has humans have trained 496 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: them to throw as hard as they can. One who 497 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: has been trained can only achieve top throwing speeds of 498 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: about twenty miles per hour, whereas I'm humans, twelve to 499 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: thirteen year old recreational baseball pictures can achieve pitches above 500 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: sixty miles per hour, and professional adult baseball players can 501 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: throw fastballs in the like nine to one mile per 502 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: hour range. So isn't that bizarre. A chimpanzee might be 503 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: simultaneously three or four times stronger than you in general, 504 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: but you are probably right now at least three times 505 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: stronger than the chimp when it comes to throwing. Wow, 506 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: that's a massive blow to any chimpanzee playing baseball. Movies 507 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: out there are basketball movies like it doesn't make sense exactly. Yeah, 508 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: so like Chimp Rookie of the Year, that movie that's 509 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: based on false premise. Yeah, but I think this makes 510 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: more sense the more you think about the act of 511 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: throwing in granular details. So throwing comes so naturally and 512 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: so easily to us as a species, it takes real, 513 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: deliberate effort to understand an extremely difficult and complex behavior. 514 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: Forceful targeted throwing is It requires split second mental calculations 515 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: regarding force, angle, and timing, as well as coordination of 516 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: lots of precise and rapid movements by many different parts 517 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: of the body. So think about all this stuff. Think 518 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: about everything your muscles and your brain have to do 519 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,719 Speaker 1: together to throw a rock and hit something, especially if 520 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: the thing is moving. You have to track the target, 521 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: anticipate future motion of the target, take into account the 522 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: physical features of the projectile, for example, like its weight 523 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: and its shape and so forth, which will affect how 524 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: it travels. You have to understand the object you're throwing 525 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: to throw it effectively. Um, you have to understand how 526 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: exactly to drawback and extend the arm for the throw, 527 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: how to grip the object in preparation for the throw, 528 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: exactly how and when to release the projectile from the grip. 529 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: And that's like a you know, tiny, tiny window, and 530 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: you have to time all of those muscular movements and 531 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: exactly the right sequence, which might all take place in 532 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: less than a second. Of throwing behaviors are one of 533 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: the fastest motions produced by the muscular skeletal system of 534 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: the human body. Yeah, which which makes it all the 535 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: more depressing when you throw a cat toy and the 536 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: cat doesn't chase after it and doesn't take the press like, 537 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: did you not see what I just did? But but 538 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: in the case of throwing a cat toy, you know, 539 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to actually make the toy go anywhere specific. 540 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: But if I'm say bowling, which I guess I don't 541 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: know if you would call bowling throwing, I guess it's 542 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: sort of like their ticket counts. But but when I'm 543 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: doing that, that's one of those rare insces where I'll 544 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: I'll occasionally stop and think and try and sort of 545 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: focus on what all I'm doing to to carry out 546 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: this physical act. And yet it's, like you said, there's 547 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: so many things going on that we don't even really 548 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: have conscious control of, or or not privy to, or 549 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: and if we think too much about it, we're just 550 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: going to drop it on her toe. Anyway. Uh, It's 551 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: it's really quite amazing. That's another interesting aspect of throwing 552 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: that I think a lot of people can attest from 553 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: their own experience. When you think too much about throwing, 554 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: you tend to get worse at it. Isn't that strange? 555 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: Like that you tend to throw more accurately when you 556 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: kind of turn off your analytical brain and just let 557 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: your intuitions take over than thank you, Thank you so anyway, 558 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: the fact that we are so much better adapted for 559 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: targeted overhand throwing than other primates, even are most closely 560 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: related primates like chimpanzees, suggests specific selection pressure on our ancestors, 561 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: favoring the development of skeletal, muscular as well as neurological 562 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: adaptations that allow us to excel at throwing to the 563 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: extent that we do. We seem quite clearly biologically shaped 564 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: for throwing, and that requires changes in in multiple parts 565 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: of the body, the muscles and the skeleton of like 566 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: the arm and the shoulder and the torso, but also 567 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: the brain and the nervous system. Now, lest you think, 568 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: I don't know how useful in real world struggle could 569 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: throwing b I think this is uncontroversial, but the authors 570 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: do spend a fair amount of time just providing evidence that, like, 571 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: you know, they do observations of pre modern practices in 572 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: hunting and warfare to show the prevalence and utility of 573 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: targeted overhand throwing. They're like, yes, it's incredibly useful. Uh. 574 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: They say that human quote, hunters and warriors used human 575 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: muscle power to propel bolas, boomerangs, darts and knives, sticks, stones, 576 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,239 Speaker 1: and spears thrown with or without the aid of auto lattels. Uh. 577 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,239 Speaker 1: If you're interested in the autolattle. By the way, we 578 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: did an episode of Invention on that a long time 579 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,479 Speaker 1: ago that I think was was one of my favorites. 580 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: I remember that being really interesting. Yeah. Anyway, many of 581 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: the technologies that replaced these practices in hunting and warfare 582 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: have simply replaced the muscular power with mechanical or chemical 583 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: sources of energy to power the throw. And that can 584 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: be everything from the tension of a bow string to 585 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: the combustion of gunpowder in in a firearm. Um. So 586 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: the question is how did our hominin ancestors make the 587 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 1: leap from something like the occasional low specialization, low utility 588 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,759 Speaker 1: tossing behaviors we see in our closest primate relatives like 589 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: chimpanzees to the kind of habitual, powerful, targeted overhand throwing 590 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,280 Speaker 1: that is characteristic of humans today. Now, like many questions 591 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: in evolutionary anthropology, we don't know the answer to this 592 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: one for sure. This is not one where somebody can 593 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: tell you the answer. But there are a few hypotheses 594 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: that are informed by some interesting evidence that we can 595 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 1: take a look at. Now, before we can figure out 596 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: how that advance from sort of occasional, low utility throwing 597 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: to human style throwing might have occurred, it's worth discussing 598 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: the major hypothesized uses of overhand throwing in an ancestral 599 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,879 Speaker 1: hominin environment. Hunting is a very obvious one, right, being 600 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: able to throw a rock or a stick with force 601 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 1: and hit a prey animal would be extremely useful. But 602 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: the authors also call out interest specific and agonistic encounters, 603 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: which means conflict with other members of the same species. 604 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 1: And then finally, I thought this one was really fascinating, 605 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 1: and uh, this one may help explain and and help 606 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: you see how this this bridge could have been crossed behaviorally. 607 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: The practice of power scavenging, which means not just regular scavenging, 608 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,439 Speaker 1: not just wandering around looking for a dead animal to 609 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: to feast upon. Power scavenging means waiting for other predators 610 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: to take down a prey animal and then chasing those 611 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: predators away from the kill and taking it for yourself. Yeah, 612 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,720 Speaker 1: there was a There was a fabulous BBC documentary several 613 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 1: years back kindled Human Planet, that was narrated by John Hurt, 614 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: and it had to do with various human practices of 615 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 1: often hunting or source scavenging that that have been practiced 616 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: to some degree into the modern age, and one of 617 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: them involved stealing part of the kill from a lion, 618 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,280 Speaker 1: which would be an example of power scavenging something where 619 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: you want to get in there like that the lion 620 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: has done the I guess the hard part and has 621 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: brought down prey, but now you're gonna do an also 622 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: hard thing. You want to get in there, drive the 623 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: predator away long enough to get yourself a little bit 624 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: of the meat as well. Right. Um. So, for this hypothesis, 625 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,439 Speaker 1: the authors cite a work by Bingham and Susa from 626 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: two thousand nine which makes the case that during the 627 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 1: time of transition from Australia Epithes Senes to the emergence 628 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: of the Homo genus to which we belong. Uh climate 629 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: conditions in Africa may have given rise to these little 630 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: like isolated savannah environments containing hominins. But these environments also 631 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:03,280 Speaker 1: quote lacked dangerous predators and power scavengers like lions and hyenas, 632 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: but contained smaller and less dangerous predators such as leopards 633 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:12,280 Speaker 1: and cheetahs. So if that's correct, it's it's maybe easy 634 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 1: to imagine how with leopards and cheetahs you could more 635 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: more plausibly chase them away, or early hominance could have 636 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: chased them away from a kill by throwing things at them, 637 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: even without very specialized weapons, maybe just by like throwing 638 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: rocks or or unmodified sticks. And this could be thought 639 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: of as a kind of high risk, high reward strategy. 640 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: Like with power scavenging. You can get a big meat 641 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: pay day with relatively little energy investment since you don't 642 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 1: have to like chase the prey animal down yourself, but 643 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: it's dangerous. You do have to confront one or more 644 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,839 Speaker 1: predators for the kill, and this type of strategy might 645 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,359 Speaker 1: not be worth the risk if you have to fight 646 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: a leopard with your hands or with handheld weapons. But 647 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: if you can just throw rocks at it from a 648 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: distance until it runs away, that could be a really 649 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 1: a good deal. Yeah. And and again not necessarily drive 650 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: it off completely, but just create an opening during which 651 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: you can carry out some power scavenging and then get 652 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: out of there. Yeah. Now, another question to look at 653 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: is what is the earliest we have, like totally clear 654 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: physical evidence to establish the use of thrown projectiles by 655 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: humans um the author's right quote unambiguous archaeological evidence of 656 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: the use of modified throwing weapons manufactured by members of 657 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,799 Speaker 1: the genus Homo are the stone spear points, manufactured approximately 658 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 1: three hundred thousand years ago in Africa. Hunting spears with 659 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: their center of gravity one third of the way from 660 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: the tips, suggesting that they were thrown were found in 661 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 1: Germany and date from three hundred thousand to four hundred 662 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: thousand years ago. These two examples are evidence that manufactured 663 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: weapons were thrown by members of the Homo genus at 664 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,359 Speaker 1: least three hundred thousand years ago. But while it's harder 665 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: to be certain about what happened before that, the authors 666 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 1: infer that human ancestors were probably throwing sticks and rocks 667 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: going back a couple of million years, so there was 668 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 1: probably use of throwing of less modified or unmodified objects 669 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 1: from the environment before. We have evidence of these modified 670 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: throwing weapons from like three D four hundred thousand years ago. 671 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: And one idea I came across in trying to locate 672 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,760 Speaker 1: the origins of habitual forceful throwing is based on studies 673 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: of anatomy, and this brings us back to that researcher 674 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,760 Speaker 1: I talked about a minute ago, the anthropologist Neil Thomas Roach, 675 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 1: who along with some colleagues studied the bodies and behavior 676 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 1: of practiced human throwers like baseball pitchers and uh, and 677 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: let's see the citation here is Roach, Vincadason, Rainbow, and 678 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: Lieberman from published in the journal Nature, and the paper 679 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: title is Elastic Energy Storage in the Shoulder and the 680 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: Evolution of high speed Throwing in Homo And basically, these 681 00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: authors contend that the anatomical difference that may humans so 682 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,760 Speaker 1: good at throwing is our ability to store elastic energy 683 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 1: in our shoulders. So it's not just like the strength 684 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 1: of the muscles, but the fact that the human body 685 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: is designed to sort of cock back the arm before 686 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:18,320 Speaker 1: a forceful throw, and a human essentially creates a bio 687 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: mechanical sling shot by stretching the tendons and the ligaments 688 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 1: surrounding the scapula or the shoulder blade, and this tension 689 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 1: could be thought of as analogous to the tension in 690 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: a bowstring. It allows very rapid extension of the arm 691 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: after the wind up. Now, how come we can do 692 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 1: this and our nearest relatives like chimpanzees cannot. The researchers 693 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: here argued that there are basically three important anatomical changes 694 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 1: that are found altogether around two million years ago uh 695 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,879 Speaker 1: in the species Homo erectus. So these three changes are 696 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,800 Speaker 1: the expansion of the waste and this sort of lets 697 00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 1: the torso rotate above the hips, which generates more rotational force. 698 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 1: So when you're like cocking your arm back to throw overhand, 699 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:08,200 Speaker 1: you typically you twist your torso, and that change in 700 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,800 Speaker 1: uh in Homo erectus allowed them to twist their torso 701 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: like that. The second is a lower positioning of the 702 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 1: shoulders on the torso, and this changes the orientation of 703 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 1: the muscles around the shoulder, again helping us to store 704 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 1: more energy in the wind up of an overhand throw. Again, 705 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 1: this is found in Homo erectus, and then the twisting 706 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: of the humorous bone, which is the upper arm bone, 707 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 1: and that twisting is yet another way to stretch the 708 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: bow string, storing up even more energy in the wind 709 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,360 Speaker 1: up uh. And you can see these differences. There's a 710 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: diagram they include. You might be able to look up 711 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: for yourself if you see a comparison of like a 712 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: muscle diagram or the scapula of a chimpanzee and a human, 713 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 1: and you can see some of these differences, particularly the 714 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,319 Speaker 1: lower position of the shoulder on the human body. You know, 715 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 1: you look at the upper musculature of a chimpanzee and 716 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 1: you're like, well, I really would not want to be 717 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 1: clubbed by this animal. And I imagine that animal can 718 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,479 Speaker 1: really like climb a tree really well. But there's there's 719 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: some kind of different twisting of the shoulder and the 720 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 1: pectoral muscle in the human body that apparently allows us 721 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 1: to to perform this cocking back or wind up behavior 722 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,799 Speaker 1: before and overhand throws so much better than a chimp can. 723 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,640 Speaker 1: This also means, according to this illustration, the chimpanzee nipple 724 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,320 Speaker 1: is also just a little bit higher. It's true comparatively, 725 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,400 Speaker 1: um so roach and colleagues argue that these anatomical changes 726 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: that favor throwing coincide with archaeological evidence showing increased hunting 727 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: activity in these hominins, so like more processed animal bones, 728 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,400 Speaker 1: that occupied sites, stone tool work, and so forth. So 729 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,799 Speaker 1: that would make a link between the this these anatomical 730 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 1: changes that favor the ability to throw, and what human 731 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 1: ancestors were eating. The Homo erectus was apparently dining on 732 00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,920 Speaker 1: more meat. Now, coming back to that paper by Lombardo 733 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,399 Speaker 1: and Dianer. From that they examine a number of other 734 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: different things, like talking about the prevalence and effectiveness of 735 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: overhand throwing in warfare and hunting, and they also look 736 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 1: at things like sex differences in throwing behavior. For example, 737 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 1: in chimpanzees, there's some evidence that male chimpanzees tend to 738 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 1: throw more uh and relative levels of lethality and targeted 739 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 1: throwing behaviors and so forth. But to come to the 740 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,320 Speaker 1: conclusion regarding that transition, like how did the leap happen 741 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,319 Speaker 1: from you know, sort of occasional, non specialized throwing like 742 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 1: we see in chimpanzees today to the habitual, targeted, forceful 743 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:41,280 Speaker 1: overhand throwing that humans can do uh. The conclusion, they argue, 744 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,479 Speaker 1: is that this adaptation grew out of quote a way 745 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 1: for throwers to manipulate the behavior of targeted individuals during 746 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 1: interest specific agonistic interactions, and then later transitioned into you 747 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: steering power, scavenging and hunting by hominans, perhaps in the 748 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:03,120 Speaker 1: Australi epithesenes. So why do they think it's started with 749 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: manipulating the behavior of of other hominins within the same 750 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:12,319 Speaker 1: species and agonistic interactions. Well, I think we can get 751 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,719 Speaker 1: some clues by looking at our closest primate relatives. Again, 752 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,719 Speaker 1: this this in no way clinches the argument. We don't 753 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,200 Speaker 1: know for sure, but it's an interesting line of evidence. 754 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,399 Speaker 1: So they say, if you look at our relatives like chimpanzees, 755 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,080 Speaker 1: Binobo's guerrillas and so forth, these animals have all been 756 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:32,279 Speaker 1: observed throwing. But when and how do they throw? Well, 757 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,799 Speaker 1: do they throw to hunt? The answer there seems like 758 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:40,400 Speaker 1: either no or almost never. There are almost no claimed 759 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,920 Speaker 1: observations that any of these animals use projectiles for hunting, 760 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 1: with basically one possible exception, and that's a report by 761 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 1: Jane Goodall actually in nineteen eighty six, where to read 762 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: from the paper here quote Goodall reported three observations of 763 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: throwing by hunting chimpanzees. In two instances, stones thrown by 764 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,440 Speaker 1: an male may have been intended to cause the prey 765 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,239 Speaker 1: adult bush pigs to run rather than to harm them. 766 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:10,920 Speaker 1: In another instance, six male chimpanzees hunting baboons through stones 767 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,319 Speaker 1: at male baboons that were attacking the hunters. None of 768 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: these accounts closely resembles the highly skilled aimed throwing used 769 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:22,560 Speaker 1: by human hunters, so even if these instances count, they 770 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: appear to be somewhat ambiguous and relatively unique. There are 771 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:31,000 Speaker 1: basically no other reports of apes throwing to hunt uh, 772 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,680 Speaker 1: and instead, apes and monkeys seem to be used throwing 773 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,840 Speaker 1: as part of communication behavior during encounters with other members 774 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 1: of the same species or sometimes with other animals such 775 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:46,239 Speaker 1: as humans. Most often, it's used for agonistic interactions, a 776 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,120 Speaker 1: kind of threat display that you might throw rocks or 777 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,600 Speaker 1: sticks at another member of the same ape species or 778 00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 1: another animal to sort of drive them away or intimidate them. So, 779 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,800 Speaker 1: if a chimpanzee is trying to display dominance or intimidate 780 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,560 Speaker 1: an other one, or trying to get an interloper away 781 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 1: from the group, throwing rocks and sticks is a common 782 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,799 Speaker 1: behavior there, but it's also not just aggressive interactions those 783 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,160 Speaker 1: are the most common. There are also, in fewer cases 784 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,400 Speaker 1: more benign examples, like particularly in binobos and some monkeys 785 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,840 Speaker 1: were throwing can be a bid to initiate play or 786 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,759 Speaker 1: some other type of non threatening communication. Yeah, pebbles on 787 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,600 Speaker 1: the window again here. So for the most part, it 788 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 1: seems chimps don't really hunt or power scavenge by throwing. 789 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:33,000 Speaker 1: They throw most often as a threatening display toward other 790 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,960 Speaker 1: chimps or to communicate in some way. But you can 791 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:40,400 Speaker 1: see how this behavior could bridge over into power scavenging 792 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:44,120 Speaker 1: if you're generally throwing to threaten, so you know it 793 00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 1: starts off with agonistic interactions, and then maybe sometimes you 794 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 1: throw to threaten a predator that is there with with 795 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 1: a kill, and instead you drive the predator away and 796 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 1: you take the meat. This creates an association between throwing 797 00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,360 Speaker 1: to threaten and to meet reward that could increase singly 798 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: lead to throwing to hunt directly, especially if you were 799 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,400 Speaker 1: able to create modified projectiles such as spears. So it 800 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,000 Speaker 1: makes me wonder like if those specific chimpanzees observed by 801 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: Jane Goodall, if they were in fact using rocks to 802 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,719 Speaker 1: hunt or aid in hunting in some way. You kind 803 00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:20,600 Speaker 1: of have to wonder if maybe they're on the bleeding 804 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,960 Speaker 1: edge of chimp technology in some way, like the one. 805 00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:26,279 Speaker 1: Those are the ones who, if left alone for a 806 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,880 Speaker 1: few hundred thousand years, might evolve to select anatomical traits 807 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,120 Speaker 1: that favor throwing and you know, modify objects from their 808 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:38,000 Speaker 1: environment to make their throwing more effective. Yeah, yeah, that's 809 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 1: fascinating this so you can see the links here between, 810 00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:46,759 Speaker 1: like this sort of growing understanding to some degree that 811 00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,319 Speaker 1: being able to throw an object at another creature is 812 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,960 Speaker 1: a way to alter its behavior or disrupt its behavior 813 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:59,239 Speaker 1: at a distance, and then that that potential extra step 814 00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,600 Speaker 1: and realize that this also can harm the animal, and 815 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:06,439 Speaker 1: then there are ways to enhance the materials so as 816 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:10,680 Speaker 1: to increase harm. Uh. Yeah, that's fascinating. So what do 817 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 1: I think about their hypothesis here? I wouldn't say I'm 818 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,160 Speaker 1: a hundred percent convinced, but it seems very plausible. They 819 00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: make a pretty good case alright, So hopefully this episode 820 00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 1: will help us, you know, Spook, you will help mess 821 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,160 Speaker 1: you up the next time you need to try and 822 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:30,320 Speaker 1: throw something with intention and direction, maybe your next softball game, 823 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,960 Speaker 1: maybe the next time you you go to beer somebody 824 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,319 Speaker 1: at an outdoor party. They'll just be that moment of 825 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,080 Speaker 1: doubt where you you run through the evolutionary history of 826 00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,320 Speaker 1: getting to this point and then you miss your target, 827 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:48,680 Speaker 1: overthink it and then slice. All right, Well, we we'd 828 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:50,000 Speaker 1: love to hear from anyone out there if you have 829 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,440 Speaker 1: any thoughts and feedback related to this episode or other 830 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:57,760 Speaker 1: episodes in this uh this series about humans throwing things, 831 00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,239 Speaker 1: animals throwing things, um right in, We'd love to hear 832 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:03,239 Speaker 1: from you, and of course we could we could potentially 833 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,680 Speaker 1: keep going with this topic. So we're gonna we're gonna 834 00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,239 Speaker 1: discuss after we wrap this episode and see if we're 835 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,839 Speaker 1: going to part four now or if we're gonna come 836 00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:14,279 Speaker 1: back in the future. I don't know. We don't have 837 00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,240 Speaker 1: to tune in Thursday to see what happens. In the meantime, 838 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,360 Speaker 1: we'll remind you that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 839 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,160 Speaker 1: a science podcast that publishes core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 840 00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,600 Speaker 1: and the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed on Monday's, 841 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:27,759 Speaker 1: we do listener mail. On Wednesday's, we do a short 842 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:30,759 Speaker 1: form artifact or monster Fact episode, and on Fridays we 843 00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,440 Speaker 1: set aside most serious concerns to discuss a weird movie 844 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:38,240 Speaker 1: on Weird House Cinema. Huge thanks to our audio producer 845 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,799 Speaker 1: J J. Pauseway. If you would like to get in 846 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,399 Speaker 1: touch with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 847 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,520 Speaker 1: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to 848 00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,240 Speaker 1: say hello, you can email us at contact at Stuff 849 00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:58,759 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind dot com Stuff to Blow your Mind. 850 00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,560 Speaker 1: It's production of I Heart Radio. 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