Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. Hello, and welcome to Cool People, the
Speaker 1: Cool Cool Thing with the snow. There's only forward. I'm
Speaker 1: your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and this is a podcast about
Speaker 1: cool people did cool stuff with this title that probably
Speaker 1: is the same as what I just said. And my
Speaker 1: guest today is the host of cool Stuff your mom
Speaker 1: wasn't cool enough to know about, Samantha mcfae.
Speaker 2: I love this. Thank you so much. I'm so glad
Speaker 2: to be back on with y'all. This makes me Yeah,
Speaker 2: this is well.
Speaker 1: I guess I should do the rest of the introductions
Speaker 1: with me. Today is my producer, who's always been my producer.
Speaker 1: We've always been at war with Oceania. Okay, No, I
Speaker 1: shouldn't do that make people think that Sharen is a
Speaker 1: permanent producer. Sharen is standing in today for Sophie because
Speaker 1: Sharen is awesome. The producers sharene Hi Serene.
Speaker 3: I'm technically a producer because I do book the show,
Speaker 3: so I am a producer.
Speaker 1: That's true.
Speaker 2: She's booked all my shows for you. Hell yeah, I
Speaker 2: think that's something I have done.
Speaker 3: No, but I'm here and I like the three of us.
Speaker 3: I feel like this is a very safe space. You
Speaker 3: know what I mean like, I feel very safe with
Speaker 3: both of y'all. This is a nice little trio we have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like it. Let's just stay here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just stay, just just talk.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is now a twenty four to seven live podcast.
Speaker 1: You'll be able to hear us sleep.
Speaker 2: I grind my teeth. I'm sorry in advance.
Speaker 1: It's fine. I can go back to sleep.
Speaker 2: Danny stress. Yeah, it's attress anyway.
Speaker 1: Well, the other person who has to stress about the
Speaker 1: show is Daniel, our audio engineer. Hi, Daniel, Hi, Danel Trian.
Speaker 1: We can't go forward and take say high Danel.
Speaker 3: Oh Hi, Sorry, I really had a brain fart there.
Speaker 3: I haven't said Oh no, I don't hate that. I'm
Speaker 3: saying that again. I said that. That's the second time
Speaker 3: I said that week.
Speaker 2: Brain farts out, Uh fog, brain fall.
Speaker 3: No, no, no glitching. I glitched glitch high Danel, love you, Daniel,
Speaker 3: Thanks Danel.
Speaker 2: I met Danel one time, the only time I've ever
Speaker 2: been in the studio in California. A little helped us out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was the best man. Daniel's the man.
Speaker 2: I bet he doesn't remember us, though, I bet Daniel does.
Speaker 3: I would bet money he's the best, he remembers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Hi, Daniel.
Speaker 1: Our theme music was written for us by unwoman. And
Speaker 1: this is part two of a two parter, although usually
Speaker 1: I say that to be like, well, what the fuck
Speaker 1: are you doing? There's no way you coul possibly understand
Speaker 1: what I'm about to talk about unless you listen to
Speaker 1: part one, And this time is not really true because
Speaker 1: I'm telling two distinct stories on a similar topic. Last time, well,
Speaker 1: in some ways, it's just a continuation of the thing
Speaker 1: that we talked about a year and a half ago
Speaker 1: when we talked about the Jam Collective, and then on
Speaker 1: Monday we talked about the groups of lay organizations in
Speaker 1: Germany that performed a million abortions a year and never
Speaker 1: got written about in English history. And now we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about California, which no one ever talks about. Actually, yeah,
Speaker 1: where is this? It's this state they made up to
Speaker 1: feature in a new movie called Civil War that comes
Speaker 1: out this year.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that's a separate episode altogether.
Speaker 1: Are you all going to do an episode sharing's the
Speaker 1: host of It Could Happen Here, which actually talks about
Speaker 1: current events unlike me? Are you all going to talk
Speaker 1: about the movie Civil War?
Speaker 3: I mean, I would love to. I don't know, I've
Speaker 3: got I think it's a Robert question, to be honest. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 3: but that would be really fun. I would like your
Speaker 3: take on it, too, though I have some takes. I
Speaker 3: have some takes.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, California, many people have heard of it.
Speaker 1: You are doing something right or at least interesting when
Speaker 1: history remembers you as part of the Army of Three,
Speaker 1: or if people remember you as the first abortion rights
Speaker 1: activists in the US, which again we talked about this
Speaker 1: last time. I am one hundred percent certain these are
Speaker 1: not the first abortion rights activists in the United States.
Speaker 1: But you know what, you're doing something right. If people
Speaker 1: remember you that as that, it's not their fault they
Speaker 1: got called that. Pat McGinnis, Rowenna Gerner, and Lana Clark Fallan.
Speaker 1: In the mid nineteen sixties in the Bay Area, they
Speaker 1: set up two complementary organizations. One had the catchy name
Speaker 1: really just I'm just so over how people name things.
Speaker 1: I guess that's what it really comes down to. They
Speaker 1: set up the Society for Humane Abortion, which is fine,
Speaker 1: it's a SAHA, and they also set up the Association
Speaker 1: to Repeal Abortion Laws. Errol and that's fine. Those are
Speaker 1: fine names. Saha was the above ground advocacy arm and
Speaker 1: Errol did the crimes when in doubt. Every movement is
Speaker 1: stronger when the illegal and legal components work together to
Speaker 1: support each other. And I am the first person to
Speaker 1: ever come up with that idea, get it because first,
Speaker 1: and I'm totally the first person should be credited. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: every now and then people like credit like me with
Speaker 1: having and I'm like, no, I just repeat the stuff
Speaker 1: that I've learned from people anyway. Yeah, totally, I invented everything.
Speaker 1: It started with Pat. Pat was a white woman who's
Speaker 1: raised Catholic and poor in Ithaca, New York. She was
Speaker 1: born in nineteen twenty eight. She joined the army, and
Speaker 1: she got in trouble for hanging out with a black soldier.
Speaker 1: I think they were fucking. It was like fraternizing with
Speaker 1: a black soldier. I assume everything is cod for fucking.
Speaker 1: I don't know whether that's true or not. It's fair,
Speaker 1: and so they like punish her by sending her off
Speaker 1: to some day Like when the state controls you because
Speaker 1: you're in the army, they can just be like, now
Speaker 1: you've got to go work over there or whatever. She
Speaker 1: got out of the army, she moved to the Bay
Speaker 1: and by nineteen sixty one she was an abortion rights activist.
Speaker 1: And the way she started doing this she just started
Speaker 1: standing on street corners and talking to strangers about abortion.
Speaker 1: She just was like, Hey, you want to talk about
Speaker 1: how it shouldn't be illegal and shouldn't be dangerous to
Speaker 1: have abortions in this country? And people would be like, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: and like, what an it's not outdated? What an old
Speaker 1: fashioned but not outdated way to start making change?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I feel like she was taking on like old school
Speaker 2: preachers who used to just standing in the middle of
Speaker 2: the street and start screaming at you about going to hell.
Speaker 2: So she's like, you know what, let me try this
Speaker 2: in my tactic. Let me see do you know about
Speaker 2: abortion and why should be uh legal?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah. And it wasn't quite soapboxing, which is that weird.
Speaker 1: I'd learned so much about soapboxing from doing the show,
Speaker 1: because you have people talk about the like literally stand
Speaker 1: out a soapbox. It turns out that was like that
Speaker 1: was just twitter before you had twitters. You would go
Speaker 1: to the public square and there'd be like forty people
Speaker 1: standing on soapboxes. You just go walk around like people
Speaker 1: were really bored before the invention of TV.
Speaker 2: You know, they do that at college campuses, or they
Speaker 2: did when I was in college, and that's been that's
Speaker 2: been a minute. That could be around the same time.
Speaker 1: But they did that too. There was probably hackey sacking,
Speaker 1: did redude.
Speaker 2: Oh they were yelling about everybody going to hell oh oh,
Speaker 2: but some of them may be hacky sacking that problem.
Speaker 2: That's about the time frame. Okay, okay, oh, I feel outdated.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just assume that everyone still does
Speaker 1: exactly the same things that we did when we were kids.
Speaker 2: Thank you, and I from the same generation, so I
Speaker 2: appreciate that you're kind of on point with my life.
Speaker 2: And I feel both sad and validated.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 1: Pat By nineteen sixty two, she starts a group. I
Speaker 1: have a feeling this group is just her, but I'm
Speaker 1: not one hundred percent certain. The Citizens Committee for Humane
Speaker 1: Abortion Laws, And basically her argument was, and this is
Speaker 1: an entirely solid argument, fewer people will die if abortion
Speaker 1: is legalized, and also what if people owned the inside
Speaker 1: of their own bodies, Like she literally phrased it, as
Speaker 1: like people own their own internal organs.
Speaker 2: I'm like, points made.
Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: so she started doing media talks and conducted opinion polls
Speaker 1: and shit, and she ran a service where people could
Speaker 1: ask her about abortion by mail, and so like, I
Speaker 1: get it why she's called the first abortion tried activist,
Speaker 1: and like, I'm sure I've covered a lot of people
Speaker 1: talking about fairly similar things in the nineteenth century or whatever.
Speaker 1: But she was just like on the ground working as
Speaker 1: an activist alone, and like, more fucking power to her.
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty four, Rowenna Gerner showed up at her
Speaker 1: apartment just like cold called stranger and was like, hey,
Speaker 1: I hear you're the lady trying to do something about
Speaker 1: abortion that rules.
Speaker 2: Can I help make friends?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The subtext here is that she knew where the apartment was.
Speaker 1: I think that the like asking questions by mail was
Speaker 1: just out of her own apartment. I cannot imagine. I
Speaker 1: think that the anti abortion movement didn't really pick up
Speaker 1: speed until the seventies and eighties, you know, because it
Speaker 1: was already illegal. It's so hard for me to wrap
Speaker 1: my head around someone not using a po box for
Speaker 1: asking me about crime. Here's my address, you know, right.
Speaker 2: I wonder she thought that much through as much as like, eh,
Speaker 2: this is gonna give everybody a chance to talk to me.
Speaker 2: So I was really going to do this. We'll see.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's working great. And the day she shows up,
Speaker 1: she sits down and starts helping with the mail and
Speaker 1: the two started referring people to abortionists and now they're
Speaker 1: doing the crime part. They built a kit that was
Speaker 1: a detailed reviews of every provider available, many of whom
Speaker 1: were like in Mexico, Puerto Rico, and Japan. Japan actually
Speaker 1: was a routine procedure at this point, whereas in Mexico
Speaker 1: and Puerto Rico is illegal, but it was like easier
Speaker 1: to do, you know. And they provided guidance for how
Speaker 1: to navigate the whole process. That was like here's what
Speaker 1: to do in the cab. There's going to be people
Speaker 1: as soon as you ask for this address, the cab
Speaker 1: driver is going to try and like take you to
Speaker 1: a different provider because he gets a cut if you
Speaker 1: go to a different provider. Here's how to tell him
Speaker 1: that you're not don't want to go to someone else,
Speaker 1: you know, and coached people through the process of controlling
Speaker 1: their bodies. When they got reports of providers threatening or
Speaker 1: sexually assault patients or whatever, they were like, they'd write
Speaker 1: to the provider who was acting up and be like,
Speaker 1: wouldn't it be a shame if we started putting your
Speaker 1: home address and full legal name in our document instead
Speaker 1: of this you know, other place and basically threatened doctors
Speaker 1: in the good behavior? Yeah, like it it never works. Yeah.
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty five, Lana Clark Fallon joined and met
Speaker 1: like literally there was like out pamphleting in the rain,
Speaker 1: and this woman came up and was like, y'all, rule,
Speaker 1: can I join the meet?
Speaker 3: Cues that are happening in this in this history are incredible.
Speaker 3: They're great.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you want to meet your people, spend years standing
Speaker 1: on street corners telling oh, that's really sad, but it worked.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know if that applies today, kids,
Speaker 2: So don't necessarily do that right now, No wrong.
Speaker 1: Just stand on the corner and talk about the need
Speaker 1: for crime, like my upcoming pamphlet the need for ECOCEP anyway, so.
Speaker 2: It's gotta be on the nose.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So then they built a legal strategy. They were like,
Speaker 1: we don't like that this is illegal. How do we
Speaker 1: make it legal? And they were like, well, we don't
Speaker 1: have like a ton of resources, and let's get ourselves
Speaker 1: arrested and we'll take it to court and be like
Speaker 1: what we're doing is not fucking wrong, which is a
Speaker 1: common legal strategy from for bottom up legal change right
Speaker 1: top down. You can just hire people to go bribe people.
Speaker 1: And I almost aid Hollywood, but what's the Washington. And
Speaker 1: so they wanted to get arrested so they can have
Speaker 1: their day in court. And so they they wanted to
Speaker 1: set precedent about how abortion needed to be legalized. So
Speaker 1: they would do these like publicly available talks and tire
Speaker 1: that are entirely illegal about DIY abortion right. And they
Speaker 1: would go up to cops and invite them and be like, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm giving a crime lecture that's illegal for me to
Speaker 1: give later at the following address in case you want
Speaker 1: to come. Cops would come, learn how to learn birth control,
Speaker 1: and then leave.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, is this one of those like
Speaker 2: sitcom moments of them just never being able to be
Speaker 2: arrested and the couse of being like stop, stop, stop,
Speaker 2: just just just go to your thing, just stop.
Speaker 1: It took a year whe to successfully get arrested for
Speaker 1: actively breaking this law.
Speaker 3: I'm going to go and assume that these women are
Speaker 3: all white. These are three white women, so that you're
Speaker 3: using your privilege, right, you know what I mean, like
Speaker 3: like go to jail.
Speaker 2: But they didn't realize how privileged they would be. They
Speaker 2: really did assume this is going to work. Surely, Surely,
Speaker 2: this one time they will arrest us, not thinking, oh no,
Speaker 2: I'm a white girl who's coming in being all cute
Speaker 2: about let me tell you.
Speaker 1: Yeahpecially, yeah, no, totally. And it took them a year.
Speaker 1: They finally successfully got arrested two of them. That which
Speaker 1: is enough that was there, like thank god, yeah, finally,
Speaker 1: but the case took so long that ROV went passed
Speaker 1: in the meantime. But they did help set California precedent
Speaker 1: for like California specific legal legalization of abortion, which obviously
Speaker 1: became important again really recently. So they were cool as holl.
Speaker 2: Very cool.
Speaker 1: Now we're going to stick to California, but we're going
Speaker 1: to go down to another imaginary city, Los Angeles. Yeah,
Speaker 1: no one's ever heard of Los Angeles. It's just it's
Speaker 1: the city that exists only in the movies. I think
Speaker 1: it's like Gotham. Yeah, it's a joke because everyone in
Speaker 1: podcast world except me lives in Los Angeles. I mean, actually,
Speaker 1: none of the people whatever, I'm not telling anyone. All
Speaker 1: three of us live in Los Angeles. At the following address,
Speaker 1: so we talked about some of the people were about
Speaker 1: to talk about Last Time You're On, but I want
Speaker 1: to go into a little bit more detail and or
Speaker 1: like different detail about them because they're just it's cool,
Speaker 1: and I learned some cool stuff they did I'll talk
Speaker 1: about and it ties into the stuff we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about a little bit later. Okay, So, the feminist
Speaker 1: movement of the sixties an awful lot. They also did
Speaker 1: an awful lot wrong, and we'll talk about some of that.
Speaker 1: But one of their favorite tactics was called consciousness raising.
Speaker 1: And it's one of these tactics that again kind of
Speaker 1: like it's like soap boxing. Soap boxing doesn't make any
Speaker 1: sense in the modern world. It's hard to imagine, right,
Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine I'm going to go into a
Speaker 1: public square, stand on a box and talk and people
Speaker 1: aren't just going to like even throw money at me
Speaker 1: or call the cops. But that was a big thing
Speaker 1: that people did consciousness raising. They were like, patriarchy keeps
Speaker 1: women isolated in homes controlled by men. So let's just
Speaker 1: get women together under the right circumstances and talking about
Speaker 1: the right things and with the right prompts that can
Speaker 1: be revolutionary. And they were right, Like a lot of
Speaker 1: things that have happened in this world have happened because
Speaker 1: marginalized people just get together and compare notes an awful lot,
Speaker 1: and like there's like revolutionary like the larger scheme of
Speaker 1: things about like pushing social issues, and there's just a
Speaker 1: lot of people who realized that their husbands were pieces
Speaker 1: of shit who were able to fucking leave. You know.
Speaker 1: Consciousness raising got women together to break their isolation, and
Speaker 1: it helped folks realize their own agency. And it also
Speaker 1: led to the next cool people to discuss, who ran
Speaker 1: what was called the self help movement and relatedly, menstrual extraction.
Speaker 1: So in nineteen sixty nine, this story did not get
Speaker 1: This part of the story did not go out the
Speaker 1: way I wanted it to. In nineteen sixty nine, five
Speaker 1: women started hanging out with an illegal abortionist named John
Speaker 1: Gwynn in Los Angeles and John Gwynn kept going to
Speaker 1: jail for abortion, but he was like, whatever, it's the
Speaker 1: right thing to do. It's also my job. Got a crime, doctor,
Speaker 1: Got do crime as a doctor. We talked about him
Speaker 1: before because he invented some game chambers in abortion, like
Speaker 1: suction abortion or a way to do it specifically, and
Speaker 1: he started making certain types of early abortions way the
Speaker 1: fuck safer. A year later, nineteen seventy, he actually get
Speaker 1: himself arrested on purpose in a similar way as the
Speaker 1: other women we talked about. With the women that we
Speaker 1: talked about, because he wants to challenge abortion laws, and
Speaker 1: the way he did is really fucking neat. He just
Speaker 1: set up an abortion clinic, like put a sign out
Speaker 1: front that was like abortions, get them here, abortions here,
Speaker 1: they're free. Yeah. It was called the Community Service Center
Speaker 1: and Women's Abortion Clinic, and it was a free abortion
Speaker 1: clinic in Los Angeles, just like, hey, crime doctor here,
Speaker 1: if you need any crimes done.
Speaker 2: Don't even need a coupon, just come on in.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It was open for five days, so longer than
Speaker 1: I expeah, I know, and then all of its employees
Speaker 1: were arrested of course, John Gwynn, who was twenty nine
Speaker 1: years old, was like, yeah, I've done about two thousand
Speaker 1: abortions so far in my life. And to be very
Speaker 1: he's also already been to jail for it several times
Speaker 1: at this point. And even when he charged money, he
Speaker 1: charged it like the like three hundred I didn't write
Speaker 1: the actual amount, but I read it earlier. It's like
Speaker 1: three hundred bucks or so, which is about half of
Speaker 1: what hospitals charge for abortions at the time. And well,
Speaker 1: you because you could get one in a hospital wasmatically
Speaker 1: necessary and then it costs about twice what he was charging.
Speaker 1: This man should be cool people who did cool stuff.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I talk about men on the show and then
Speaker 1: find out that they're awful halfway through researching them.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy two, John Gwynn, thirty one, shot his
Speaker 1: twenty one year old girlfriend to death.
Speaker 2: Oh.
Speaker 1: He says they were arguing about her using drugs and
Speaker 1: she pulled a gun on him, and during the resulting
Speaker 1: struggle he accidentally shot her. I have no reason to
Speaker 1: believe him, and neither did the course system. Yeah, to
Speaker 1: be fair, I have no reason to believe the courses.
Speaker 1: To me, either my instinct is fucked this guy, and
Speaker 1: I'm real sad about it. Yeah, but before all that, oh,
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty nine, these five women are like hanging
Speaker 1: out being like yo, crime doc, Like, what's your crime doc? Ways,
Speaker 1: And he's like, well, I'm using this new technique using
Speaker 1: suction to extract an early pregnancy. And they're like, way,
Speaker 1: that looks easy as shit, and he's like it is
Speaker 1: easy as shit. And they're like, we're going to do it,
Speaker 1: and he's like okay. And these women they were involved
Speaker 1: in above ground organizing for abortion rights too. They'd throw
Speaker 1: abortion rights rallies where women from the crowd could come
Speaker 1: up to the microphone and just shout to the world
Speaker 1: that they'd had abortions and they weren't ashamed, you know,
Speaker 1: which is like one of these things where people are like, well,
Speaker 1: why are you proud of it? Cause it's illegal and
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be. That's why, like, I wouldn't be proud
Speaker 1: of having gotten my tonsils out because it's it's legal.
Speaker 1: And you know what else is legal? Srean are all
Speaker 1: of the things that being advertised legal or some of
Speaker 1: them crimes I cannot legally comment on that actually.
Speaker 2: But you know what's going to happen in the future.
Speaker 1: That's true.
Speaker 3: Everything is on the internet forever.
Speaker 1: So yeah, maybe these are crimes. Do whatever the ad is.
Speaker 1: What they're saying in the subtext is steal the following product.
Speaker 1: That's what they're telling you. Don't, no, don't, don't, sorry,
Speaker 1: don't steal the following product. It's only cool to talk
Speaker 1: about crimes, not do them. Here's ads and we're back.
Speaker 1: So these women, they're like, oh, we've were learning how
Speaker 1: to do these pretty effective abortions, you know, these these
Speaker 1: early stage pregnancy section abortions. So in Los Angeles has
Speaker 1: a conference about abortion, those for physicians, and so these
Speaker 1: five women they marched up onto the stage unannounced, like
Speaker 1: took the stage and announced to the room, quote, doctors,
Speaker 1: we're gonna do it ourselves. Women are gonna take this back.
Speaker 3: Is that a direct quote?
Speaker 1: That is a direct quote of a person describing it, Like, oh,
Speaker 1: the participant describing years later, she might have been paraphrasing.
Speaker 1: I spent a while trying to figure out whether this
Speaker 1: is a direct quote or not, Like it is a
Speaker 1: direct quote from the person who said it talking about
Speaker 1: it later.
Speaker 3: Okay, I can take that yeah, yeah, good job.
Speaker 1: And then they did that. They did it themselves. And
Speaker 1: also one of the cool things of it is they
Speaker 1: didn't have to murder any barely adult girlfriends in the process.
Speaker 2: Oh well, no win.
Speaker 1: No twenty one year olds were shot during the resultant
Speaker 1: oh dear god thing. So in nineteen seventy one. A
Speaker 1: couple years later, they had a meeting and it was
Speaker 1: a room packed full of women. I think it comes
Speaker 1: out of consciousness raising circles. They and one woman, Carol Downer,
Speaker 1: is one of the original five. She holds up a
Speaker 1: little suction machine which is at this point just a
Speaker 1: syringe and a straw and the name of the straw.
Speaker 1: Someone got mad at me for mispronouncing last time. But
Speaker 1: I want to ask you, how often in your life
Speaker 1: do you say canula?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, neverula. That's the one thing I learned about
Speaker 2: podcasting is you realize how quickly you don't know how
Speaker 2: to say so many things. Oh yeah, wow, like so
Speaker 2: many words. I'm like, I've never said this word out loud?
Speaker 2: Am I in the second grade?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you would think that if it was spelled canula,
Speaker 1: it'd be pronounced canula. But it's canula, which I can
Speaker 1: see now that.
Speaker 2: It ANYWAYX really messed us up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, like that works if you speak Spanish.
Speaker 1: They were like some reasonable language, a bastard language, three
Speaker 1: languages in a trench coat. So I bet Carol knew
Speaker 1: how to pronounce this word. And she pulled out this
Speaker 1: machine and everyone was like a little scandalized and a
Speaker 1: little bit worried and squeamish. She like describes like people
Speaker 1: were like faces were turning green. They're like, oh, I
Speaker 1: don't know, you know. So she laid down on the desk,
Speaker 1: lifted up her skirts, spread her legs, and showed people
Speaker 1: how to insert it and let people come up and
Speaker 1: look and their whole candy.
Speaker 2: To herself, yeah, that's the talent.
Speaker 1: And she was just like, well, that's what they teach.
Speaker 1: Their whole thing is that they de scandalize a woman's
Speaker 1: body from each other and are like, this is a
Speaker 1: thing that we can hang out with with each other,
Speaker 1: and it can be straight women and gay women together
Speaker 1: and it's not a sexual thing, and we can like
Speaker 1: do that because there's all this stuff about lesbian politics
Speaker 1: and all this, so I can talk about that a
Speaker 1: little bit. But and so she inserted it, and she
Speaker 1: let people see come up and look and be like,
Speaker 1: this is how it works. And then this menstrul extractor
Speaker 1: it could be used to remove the mensies, which had
Speaker 1: the side effect of preventing pregnancy if one, you know,
Speaker 1: if a pregnancy was beginning to start, it would whoops,
Speaker 1: make that not be the case. It wasn't a perfect
Speaker 1: device yet. It had two major problems. One, if air
Speaker 1: went the wrong way, it was like hella dangerous. And
Speaker 1: it also and it didn't have a safeguard against that
Speaker 1: when murder doctor, I don't normally call abortionist murderers. This
Speaker 1: guy is separately and unrelatedly a murderer.
Speaker 2: He killed a twenty one year old everyone, Just in
Speaker 2: case you came again to this, he's not talking about
Speaker 2: it because he's an abortion.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that part was cool. So the murder that that.
Speaker 2: Part, the murder, the actual killing of a woman, Yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: moving on. Uh.
Speaker 1: And two, if there was more material than would fit
Speaker 1: in the syringe, you'd have to empty it and reinsert
Speaker 1: the whole thing. And so it was just like not
Speaker 1: a perfect machine. And so these women were like, why
Speaker 1: don't we just fix it? And so these feminist lay
Speaker 1: practitioners saw what was needed, and they invented a whole
Speaker 1: less new thing. They added a one way valve so
Speaker 1: it was no longer dangerous, and they added a mason jar,
Speaker 1: and so suddenly it was safe and effective.
Speaker 2: Yes, I've seen the pictures of the with the mason jar. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it just popped into MyDD.
Speaker 1: They're so interesting. They've like largely gone out of style,
Speaker 1: I think because of the rise of medicated abortions, which
Speaker 1: is like, well, if anyone who's listening, don't assume that
Speaker 1: the medical practice is fifty years ago, is like, should
Speaker 1: be your go to modern at home abortion practice revolves
Speaker 1: around medicated abortion, and go look into that on your own,
Speaker 1: and don't get your medical information from some translator who
Speaker 1: doesn't have a univerus who reads history books for a living.
Speaker 1: That's my claim about that. There you go. So this
Speaker 1: machine it isn't it isn't an abortion machine. It's a
Speaker 1: menstrual extraction machine, which happens to also make you not
Speaker 1: pregnant in case that was happening, And you can remove
Speaker 1: your menzies all in one go. And that's how they
Speaker 1: pitched it, and that's how they kind of got away
Speaker 1: with doing it legally. Is they like what. No, it's
Speaker 1: for this, you know right. They called the machine the
Speaker 1: dell M, which stood for dirty little Machine. I didn't
Speaker 1: know this part last time, really because a doctor had disparagingly.
Speaker 2: Called it that a dirty little machine. I really think
Speaker 2: this is the punk band name that you're you're sid
Speaker 2: telling me.
Speaker 1: Okay, see, I have this rule, that Margaret's law. If
Speaker 1: someone says that would be a good band name, after
Speaker 1: someone says something, it's not true. That is Margaret's really,
Speaker 1: but how dare you? Dirty little Machine would be a
Speaker 1: good band name, Like, genuinely, that would be a good
Speaker 1: trick me. No, No, normally because like normally like and
Speaker 1: I think it's because we got poisoned by this whole
Speaker 1: era of like crappy band names like Stone Temple Pilots
Speaker 1: and like Dinosaur Junior and Smashing Pumpkins just like lo. Whoa,
Speaker 1: that sounds like nonsense. That would be a good band name.
Speaker 1: Nonsense doesn't make good band names.
Speaker 2: Well that's a good band name.
Speaker 1: No, what nonsense itself would be? Well that would be
Speaker 1: if you're a hardcore band, you could be Margrets anyway,
Speaker 1: So this dirty Little Machine could be made by more
Speaker 1: or less anyone. So they made zines explaining how to
Speaker 1: make it. You couldn't go to like better, Yeah, you
Speaker 1: have to go to like to a medical supply place
Speaker 1: get the parts, but it could be made with things
Speaker 1: that you could purchase legally, you know. And they also
Speaker 1: patented it, and this seems to be because they wanted
Speaker 1: to keep it the method of its distribution decentralized and
Speaker 1: not commercialized. So they wanted to be able to like
Speaker 1: prevent someone from claiming financial ownership over it, you know,
Speaker 1: because normally you hear about people like doing inventing cool
Speaker 1: things and then refusing to take credit and not patting it,
Speaker 1: and that's usually the cool thing. But in this particular case,
Speaker 1: they were like, we want to protect this from economic exploitation.
Speaker 1: And also specifically they were on this tip where they
Speaker 1: knew that they needed to control to some degree because
Speaker 1: they knew that they shouldn't let it be used as
Speaker 1: a machine for eugenics and population control. Because they were
Speaker 1: fucking smart and more intersectional than I would inherently assume
Speaker 1: some white women to be in nineteen seventy one, you know, impressive.
Speaker 2: The fact that they saw beyond that is very uh
Speaker 2: uncommon unfortunately, and.
Speaker 1: What I think it is. This is the best I
Speaker 1: can guess. What I think it is is that it's
Speaker 1: like not necessarily that like all the old like white
Speaker 1: second wave feminists were all bad at intersectionality and more
Speaker 1: that they didn't bake intersectionality into what they were doing,
Speaker 1: and so a fuck ton of them were really bad
Speaker 1: at it, but also a fuck ton of them were
Speaker 1: also paying attention and good at it because they were
Speaker 1: part of social movements that included other types of people.
Speaker 1: That's like my best guess.
Speaker 2: So did this include other types of people, other marginalized people.
Speaker 1: They went pretty quickly around the world to promote this,
Speaker 1: and one of the things that they like learned was
Speaker 1: that they were like, oh, in a lot of places,
Speaker 1: the women's struggle is to not be fucking sterilized, you know.
Speaker 1: And they were like, cool, we're not about that. This
Speaker 1: is a separate thing, you know. And so by going
Speaker 1: around the world, they like and they also could have
Speaker 1: looked in their own backyard, I think they did, you know,
Speaker 1: they were like, oh, this also matters this other thing.
Speaker 1: And then another part of this that I read a
Speaker 1: bit about, and I don't remember how much of it
Speaker 1: is in the script, is that a lot of the
Speaker 1: women's self help group started with white feminism, and it
Speaker 1: wasn't just like black women started doing it too, although
Speaker 1: that's true. Black women started developing it in very different
Speaker 1: ways that met their own community's needs. And one of
Speaker 1: the ways that they did it that fucking rules. And
Speaker 1: I think the start in Florida was that they started
Speaker 1: making a movement that also was like far more actively
Speaker 1: inclusive of like birthing centers. Really like kind of what
Speaker 1: you were talking about before, Like when we talk about
Speaker 1: the right to choose, we actually mean choose, not choose
Speaker 1: what we not choose abortion, choose what you want, you know,
Speaker 1: and so and so Black feminism did an awful lot
Speaker 1: of work around that aspect of it. That's a little
Speaker 1: bit off the I mean, it's something that I read
Speaker 1: about all the time, but I'm not like looking at
Speaker 1: my script when I say that. But yeah, they were like,
Speaker 1: this is not a fucking eugenics thing. They were like
Speaker 1: really upfront about it. So yeah, they started the women's
Speaker 1: self help movement as a result, And you'd have these
Speaker 1: parties where women would gather at someone's house and then
Speaker 1: they would teach you how to do inspections of your
Speaker 1: own body and other people's bodies, how to use a
Speaker 1: speculum in a mirror and a flashlight to see and
Speaker 1: monitor your own cervix and just like look in yourself
Speaker 1: and figure out what's going on.
Speaker 2: That's so interesting. I don't know why, but have you
Speaker 2: ever seen fry green Tomatoes?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: Anybody, wait, Okay, it's okay, it's very it's an ah
Speaker 2: well in a lot of ways. But one of the
Speaker 2: scenes is the fact that they're all examining their own
Speaker 2: vaginas to learn to love themselves. And Kathy Bas's characters like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, I gotta go type of situation, and
Speaker 2: it was very like women love themselves, women take care
Speaker 2: of yourselves things that it was very white, yeah centered. However,
Speaker 2: I'm wondering I like back then, because I remember hearing
Speaker 2: stories of women coming together and like really having that
Speaker 2: movement of loving themselves and loving their bodies, so like
Speaker 2: sitting around with each other but looking at them with themselves.
Speaker 2: I wonder how many of these men translated as women
Speaker 2: just looking at themselves when it was actual actually like
Speaker 2: self help things where they're teaching each other how to
Speaker 2: do these procedures, but men just dumped it down to oh,
Speaker 2: women looking at their vaginas and moving on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that that sounds true because like this was a
Speaker 1: very like I mean, it wasn't like it was science.
Speaker 1: It was folk science, but it was science. They were like, hey, look.
Speaker 2: But they were really learning about themselves and their bodies,
Speaker 2: which was for such taboo.
Speaker 1: Look how this person's cervix is different than this person's
Speaker 1: cervix and yeah, like totally, and like learning to track
Speaker 1: when you're ovulating and track like monitor sexual health and
Speaker 1: do all of this stuff. That was absolutely like like imagine,
Speaker 1: if I love it, someone just never looked at their
Speaker 1: own dick. Like I'm just imagining these men complaining about
Speaker 1: like waiting looking at themselves. I'm like, the fuck you
Speaker 1: thing men are doing like whatever.
Speaker 2: You know the joke about like measuring themselves or comparing
Speaker 2: each other.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally talking about Yeah I did measuring.
Speaker 2: Yeah I don't. There we go.
Speaker 1: That's the term that I don't care about. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: just not as good as an old fashioned pissing. I've
Speaker 1: never been in a literal pitio in contest, but you know,
Speaker 1: at least there's some skill involved anyway. So Okay, So
Speaker 1: they started going around doing these things. There's a quote
Speaker 1: from Lindsey Komy, who ran a woman's health clinic for
Speaker 1: thirty years, and she describes it self help is a
Speaker 1: continuum from learning cervical self examine, fertility tracking to learn
Speaker 1: how to perform and then provide abortion care beyond the
Speaker 1: walls of the clinic. It was always the movement's course
Speaker 1: to teach simple practices with low risk, and then gradually
Speaker 1: introduce more complicated practices, sometimes with more risk. And so
Speaker 1: the thing that's interesting to me here are the paeril
Speaker 1: between this and what was happening in like nineteen thirties Germany.
Speaker 1: You have this the above ground thing that's happening is
Speaker 1: people are meeting behind closed doors and talking about sexual health,
Speaker 1: and then those same people are like, and here's how
Speaker 1: to not get pregnant, and then oh if also if
Speaker 1: you're pregnant, we'll figure out a way to deal with it,
Speaker 1: you know. In nineteen seventy two, Carol Downer and another
Speaker 1: woman were rested for practicing medicine without a license because
Speaker 1: they were showing someone how to inspect their own cervix
Speaker 1: and apply yogurt to treat a yeast infection, and Carol
Speaker 1: fought in court like pled not guilty and won and
Speaker 1: convinced the jury that the right to self exam is
Speaker 1: not practicing medicine without a license, which is a ridiculous
Speaker 1: thing to have to win. But I'm glad someone went
Speaker 1: through the effort of getting arrested to prove that you're
Speaker 1: allowed to look at your own vagina, right like, oh, cervix.
Speaker 1: But yeah, So they had this thing they're doing, the
Speaker 1: self help movement. And when Roe v. Wade became the
Speaker 1: law nineteen seventy three, the folks in LA who developed
Speaker 1: the Dell M they came out swinging. They set up
Speaker 1: an abortion clinic like write the fuck off. Abortion was
Speaker 1: legalized on January twenty second, nineteen seventy three. By February
Speaker 1: they were performing legal abortions with a hired and licensed doctor.
Speaker 1: Abortion activists in Oakland followed within months, and Menstreul extraction
Speaker 1: didn't go away. It kind of went underground, but in
Speaker 1: a supported underground environment where like the clinics would, I believe,
Speaker 1: provide people with the materials that they needed to build
Speaker 1: their d ms and stuff like that, and thousands of
Speaker 1: women continue to teach each other the skills necessary to
Speaker 1: manage their reproductive health. But it was done in conjunction
Speaker 1: with the feminist health centers and clinics. And this is
Speaker 1: that shit. I love that I invented where the above
Speaker 1: ground and the underground work together as friends with sometimes
Speaker 1: you need enough like firewalling, where like the people who
Speaker 1: do the above ground shit don't know the illegal people,
Speaker 1: you know, but like.
Speaker 2: Whatever, you're right compartment in life.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The Oakland Feminist Women's Health Center, which ran the
Speaker 1: Oakland Clinic, started the previous year as one woman, nineteen
Speaker 1: year old Laura Brown, and she answered the phone using
Speaker 1: three different voices, so people didn't people didn't realize there's
Speaker 1: only one woman running this whole thing, you know, by yourself.
Speaker 3: Oh I love that so much.
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, Later it becomes the Women's Choice Clinic, And
Speaker 1: it started before Roe V. Wade as a women's health clinic.
Speaker 1: It was teaching cervical exams and menstrul extractions, and of
Speaker 1: course it was illegally referring people to abortion providers. They
Speaker 1: also ran an abortion hotline and when women would call,
Speaker 1: it was very quickly not just one woman running this place.
Speaker 1: When women would call and they'd be like, oh, I
Speaker 1: need an abortion and also, by the way, I'm in
Speaker 1: a domestic abuse situation, the women from this would just
Speaker 1: show up in numbers to help the woman and move
Speaker 1: all of her stuff out of the house safely. Which
Speaker 1: is a thing that I believe is part of the condition,
Speaker 1: is that everyone who's listening needs to be prepared to
Speaker 1: do that at some point in their lives. If you
Speaker 1: hear about someone who needs this help and is willing
Speaker 1: and it is safe for them to get it from
Speaker 1: you and a large group of people, join a group
Speaker 1: of people to helpe anyone escape a domestic abuse situation. Anyway, Okay,
Speaker 1: since your same generation as me, you'll remember this. You
Speaker 1: remember in ninety two the famous Pat Robertson quote about feminism.
Speaker 2: Oh, Pat Robinson, such a he said so much? Which one.
Speaker 1: Okay, feminism is about a socialist, anti family political movement
Speaker 1: that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children,
Speaker 1: practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that became a pretty much a rally
Speaker 2: cry for a lot of feminists at that point.
Speaker 1: Oh, I hit all of those notes. I mean, obviously,
Speaker 1: I don't believe it's actually about killing children. I believe
Speaker 1: it's about imborting fetuses. But it was absolutely a bunch
Speaker 1: of socialists, not all of them, but many of them
Speaker 1: were socialist and communists. They absolutely did abortions, They absolutely
Speaker 1: hated capitalism. They absolutely helped so many women come out
Speaker 1: as life lesbians.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: I also found connections to early WIKA coming out of
Speaker 1: this movement, and I just didn't have time to chase
Speaker 1: that rabbit down that rabbit hole. But so even the
Speaker 1: practicing which craft part, like, Eh, well, he's not wrong.
Speaker 2: Part of this, he's not wrong the fact that Pat Robinson,
Speaker 2: of of course, because this dude was always on TV
Speaker 2: trying to get all the old people's money. What he
Speaker 2: doesn't understand is the reason WICKA or any other anti
Speaker 2: Christian religion was actually on the rise is because of
Speaker 2: the Christian trauma that the majority of these women had
Speaker 2: gone through when any of these things applied to them.
Speaker 2: So in actuality, they created. Yeah, that movement. Yeah, in
Speaker 2: like from what I because like on my show, we
Speaker 2: did like a literal ten part episode about Christian Christianity
Speaker 2: and trauma and religious trauma, and we talked about the
Speaker 2: fact that things like the purity culture, which only enhanced
Speaker 2: rape culture, was part of the reason women have run
Speaker 2: away from religion and leaders like Pat Robinson himself.
Speaker 1: No, that makes so much sense to me. I actually
Speaker 1: want to go listen to that episode because that's the
Speaker 1: kind of kick I'm on. Later, it was learning about
Speaker 1: some of that shit.
Speaker 2: You know, there's so much trauma.
Speaker 1: Okay, So there's another origin to the abortion rights movement.
Speaker 1: So we trace this one the women's self help right now,
Speaker 1: we're gonna traces the Black Panther Party. Yes, and the
Speaker 1: Black Panther Party had been doing its thing with the
Speaker 1: medical world, which we've talked about a few times. We
Speaker 1: did an episode about the Black Panther Party. We've also
Speaker 1: talked about the Young Lords and a bunch of other
Speaker 1: folks out east that are other groups of people that
Speaker 1: have done a lot of medical access as their core
Speaker 1: movement to work right. But in the Bay, the Panthers
Speaker 1: ran free medical clinics and we're teaching lay people how
Speaker 1: to do blood work in urine analysis, all part of
Speaker 1: their theory of self health. And I love self help
Speaker 1: because I don't know whether it was an intentionally a
Speaker 1: riff on self help, even though it sounds like almost
Speaker 1: the same, right, because it's a riff off of self defense, right,
Speaker 1: They're like, well, we do self defense work, but we
Speaker 1: should also do self health work. And we've talked about
Speaker 1: a little bit earlier on this episode, but then also
Speaker 1: in another episode, in a birth control episode, I talked
Speaker 1: about where the Panthers at least started around birth control,
Speaker 1: which is that they were largely against it. But I
Speaker 1: want to talk about a little bit more. It didn't
Speaker 1: start as a political party super keen on abortion access
Speaker 1: and birth control because the Black community was fighting against
Speaker 1: the genocide of force sterilization. And as you mentioned, there's
Speaker 1: a mass campaign of force sterilization for decades and as
Speaker 1: one of the most evil and least talked about things
Speaker 1: in US history, and there was like all kinds of
Speaker 1: things where it was like literally like well, if you
Speaker 1: want to be on welfare, you have to get sterilized.
Speaker 1: And obviously this disproportionately affected women of color, and often
Speaker 1: people just directly did racial targeting and whatever anyway, but
Speaker 1: black women, including some Panthers, still fought for bodily autonomy.
Speaker 1: Despite the original position of a Black Panther party, by
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, the Panthers changed their party line to
Speaker 1: be against force sterilization rather than be against birth control,
Speaker 1: and this was in response to women pushing for what
Speaker 1: they needed from within the party, to quote Jennifer Nelson,
Speaker 1: as the feminist message of a woman's fundamental right to
Speaker 1: abortion became more widespread, and as Black women began to
Speaker 1: forge a feminism of their own, the Panthers refined their
Speaker 1: criticism to accept birth control and abortion when voluntarily chosen.
Speaker 1: This gradual transformation came at the behest of Black women,
Speaker 1: both in the party and outside of it, who rejected
Speaker 1: the total condemnation of reproductive control for people of color
Speaker 1: as genocidal and so this other origin. These people who
Speaker 1: are used to fighting for their medical needs and are
Speaker 1: doing all of this amazing community organizing work end up
Speaker 1: coming together. By the end of the seventies, the Women's
Speaker 1: Choice clinic in Oakland was black led, and occasionally it
Speaker 1: was former Panther led. And what may or may not
Speaker 1: be black led is stuff ads some of it that
Speaker 1: was that was a weird one. That one is bad. Well, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, actually, one of the ways that you reverse
Speaker 1: economic extraction is to buy black owned buy from black
Speaker 1: owned businesses and from worker owned businesses. And if we
Speaker 1: happen to have any ads for that, then do that.
Speaker 1: But even if we don't have ads from it, it's
Speaker 1: a thing worth considering. Doing gears stuff. Yeah, do some
Speaker 1: research first.
Speaker 3: That's a good point. That was tough.
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll just cut now, and we're back, and fortunately
Speaker 1: we've all forgotten about how awkwardly Margaret did that.
Speaker 2: It was an awkward break because the conversation was serious
Speaker 2: and something that's not talked about enough. I think that's
Speaker 2: part of the problem, is when we have these conversations
Speaker 2: about great up steps that they've made or revolutionaries that
Speaker 2: for so long that so many other size or the
Speaker 2: intersectional stuff has been left out because everybody wants a
Speaker 2: pretty painted story, kind of like the whole voting rights
Speaker 2: for women, the fact that they were freaking racist and
Speaker 2: leaving out black women on purpose and women of color
Speaker 2: on purpose, and then we still celebrate them because they
Speaker 2: were like they did kind of good but we can't.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm the DeBie Downer in the situation, but
Speaker 2: like you remember, they're still assholes. Yeah, so it's hard. No,
Speaker 2: it's like, good job, Margaret, you did great.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Every now and then, I think people every
Speaker 1: now and then are like, oh what A wrote this
Speaker 1: like suffragette and I'm.
Speaker 2: Like, fuck them. You know, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll do the Suffragettes at one point, but it'll
Speaker 1: be real complicated at best. And honestly, all my heroes
Speaker 1: were not excited about them even at the time.
Speaker 2: The Whole and the Shone people did a lot for
Speaker 2: the suffrage movement, so you should talk about them, okrash
Speaker 2: Nations people that still exists.
Speaker 1: No, yeah, no, that's actually really interesting. The Hood and
Speaker 1: Shone have come up a couple times on this show
Speaker 1: because they're left down fucking cool and they schooled Marks.
Speaker 1: But I didn't know about that particular connection. So I'm
Speaker 1: going to ask you more about that once we're done.
Speaker 1: So by spring of nineteen seventy three, this the Oakland
Speaker 1: Clinic hired a woman doctor fucking finally named Jane Wiley,
Speaker 1: and they opened Women's Choice and they set up a clinic, right,
Speaker 1: so this is like they're only a couple months behind
Speaker 1: the Los Angeles one. They charge one hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: dollars for abortions, which is less than half the rate
Speaker 1: of even friendly criminal providers, and it was a quarter
Speaker 1: of the rate of a hospital abortion. They got a
Speaker 1: mailorologist to start performing vi sectomies as well, which is good.
Speaker 1: If you are someone who can get a viseectomy and
Speaker 1: you are committed to not having children, then you should
Speaker 1: probably get a sect to me, it's a less invasive
Speaker 1: procedure than what other people have options of. They use
Speaker 1: their funds to support feminist causes that they raise with
Speaker 1: this clinic, like the cause of annez Garcia, who was
Speaker 1: convicted of murder for killing her rapist, and so the
Speaker 1: feminist movement, funded in part by these medical clinics, got
Speaker 1: her a retrial and a feminist lawyer and got her
Speaker 1: off on self defense. Yes, and helped set precedent in
Speaker 1: a person's right to use deadly force against sexual assault,
Speaker 1: which is it's much harder to make that case, you know,
Speaker 1: than like other particular things. But like when I I
Speaker 1: think people know that I, like, you know, took a
Speaker 1: concealed carry class and sometimes use firearms and stuff. And
Speaker 1: the times that it is legal to use deadly force
Speaker 1: is when yourself or someone else is being threatened with
Speaker 1: deadly force or with a sexual assault. So thank you,
Speaker 1: I know, as I'm sorry that you had to suffer,
Speaker 1: but I'm glad you killed that man with a twenty two.
Speaker 1: And also, how hard do you have to be of
Speaker 1: a motherfucker to kill someone with the fucking twenty two.
Speaker 1: That is not a killing gun anyway.
Speaker 2: I know nothing about guns, but props.
Speaker 1: Very small gun that's for shooting rabbits.
Speaker 2: Oh well, I got it done.
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of my friends who was shot was they're fine,
Speaker 1: but they were shot as a teenager for with the
Speaker 1: twenty two. They were shot for being gay, but they
Speaker 1: were shot in the leg with hit and they were like,
Speaker 1: I thought I got stung with a bee. I mean
Speaker 1: they had to go to the doctor and it was bad,
Speaker 1: and like people die when they get shot with twenty twos.
Speaker 2: But it's like they thought they got stung by a bee.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because they got shot in the leg with the
Speaker 1: twenty two, and that's like a beasting. Yeah, it's real painful.
Speaker 2: You're like, ah, fuck, it doesn't sound like it's painful.
Speaker 3: You mean, like in the moment, it was like beasting.
Speaker 3: It wasn't like after like it was a.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, no, No, it was a real wound and
Speaker 1: they had to go to the hospital and it could
Speaker 1: have been way worse. But like I don't know if
Speaker 1: you're listening. I'm glad you're okay.
Speaker 2: So they got hate crime essentially.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, one of my friends have got hate crime. Two.
Speaker 3: Margaret's like, yeah, yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2: What the level of just dryness would do. Traumatic stories
Speaker 2: that you tell maybe part of the classic delivery that
Speaker 2: you give to us that I enjoy so much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks appreciate it. So anyway I go see it.
Speaker 2: I'm glad they're okay.
Speaker 1: Shot and killed the man with the twenty two. Uh,
Speaker 1: he deserved it. And when she got her retrial, she
Speaker 1: was like, because her original trial, her defense was like, oh,
Speaker 1: she wasn't thinking right in the moment and stuff, and
Speaker 1: her retrial had a feminist lawyer, and the feminist lawyer
Speaker 1: was like, that man needed shooting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean to be fair. The jury was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: even today, that's hard to do.
Speaker 1: I know, I know it is.
Speaker 2: Self defense cases are so often against women and general.
Speaker 2: We talk about that woman who just took away guns
Speaker 2: from her abusive husband and she got jail time because
Speaker 2: he wasn't supposed and he had charges. But in the end,
Speaker 2: like we talk about things like that, so I don't
Speaker 2: blame the first lawyer of being like, you're not They're
Speaker 2: not going to believe you. They don't believe women in general. No, totally,
Speaker 2: let's do it this way, totally, let's plead insanity.
Speaker 1: No, you're you're right. I think she was a migrant
Speaker 1: farm worker and yeah, but.
Speaker 2: Good on her, and congratulations, I well deserved.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 3: It's fucking cool.
Speaker 1: I like started thinking about another one of my friends
Speaker 1: who got hate crime and in his self defense case
Speaker 1: went really badly. But that's a separate case. He ended
Speaker 1: up he ended up going to prison for his own
Speaker 1: hate crime. Oh my god, he's out now you're listening.
Speaker 1: I think I owe you a chain mail shirt. I
Speaker 1: promised him a chain mail shirt if he was found guilty,
Speaker 1: because he needed one more than I did. What anyway,
Speaker 1: Ye chain mail shirt. It's a nice shirt.
Speaker 2: It's chain mill Okay, yeah, legitimate cha.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think it's too late now kidding.
Speaker 1: It's probably slightlinessless necessarily than was before jail.
Speaker 3: Was this lousy chain mail shirt.
Speaker 2: Put it on top of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's like, he's not into the same nerd shit
Speaker 1: I am. He's probably was like, thanks, buddy, thanks for
Speaker 1: that promise. I don't anyway, son Roe v. Wade. It
Speaker 1: famously didn't fix everything, and now the right wing went
Speaker 1: on the attack because now they were like, oh, we're
Speaker 1: the underdog, says every right winger, ever while they're in
Speaker 1: the process of murdering everyone. Over the course of the seventies,
Speaker 1: evangelical has got more and more anti abortion, which means
Speaker 1: I'm gonna talk really quickly about religion and abortion. It's
Speaker 1: easy to think that when Christian's Protestant and Catholic have
Speaker 1: always been against abortion, it's after all, it's again the
Speaker 1: Bible or something right. It is not, and Christian opposition
Speaker 1: to abortion is fairly new. To quote Bible scholar Dan McLellan,
Speaker 1: there is no place in the Bible where full moral
Speaker 1: and legal personhood is ever attributed to a fetus. The
Speaker 1: Old Testament is very clear that a fetus is property.
Speaker 1: If a man injures a pregnant woman in a way
Speaker 1: that causes a miscarriage, he has to pay a fine.
Speaker 1: If a man injures a pregnant woman in a way
Speaker 1: that kills the woman, the man gets the death penalty
Speaker 1: because life for a life. Because a woman is a
Speaker 1: person and a fetus is a property very progressive of
Speaker 1: the Bible in that particular moment. I'm not here to
Speaker 1: defend the Bible as a source of moral wisdom, but
Speaker 1: the argument is fundamentally not about when life begins. It's
Speaker 1: about when personhood begins. Secularly, you could say full legal
Speaker 1: and moral personhood. Theologically, you could talk about insulment right
Speaker 1: when the soul enters the body, when a person is
Speaker 1: a person. There's three times people consider. They consider a conception,
Speaker 1: they consider the quickening when you can feel the fetus move,
Speaker 1: and they consider birth. All three have their proponents and
Speaker 1: all of the major monotheistic religions. Jewish traditions are more
Speaker 1: likely to say that the breath of life enters at birth,
Speaker 1: though a ton of conservative Jewish interpretations disagree. Protestantism of
Speaker 1: the not An America kind is like usually it's like
Speaker 1: birth that makes more sense. Evangelical right wing American Christians
Speaker 1: are like, we fucking hate women, we don't care about life.
Speaker 1: And then the Catholic Church, they've always been not particularly
Speaker 1: excited about abortion, but it wasn't until eighteen sixty nine
Speaker 1: that the church officially decided that there was no Catholic
Speaker 1: doctrine against abortion until eighteen sixty nine before the quickening sorry,
Speaker 1: so like most of the abortions that happen in our world.
Speaker 1: And then they switched it over to conception in eighteen
Speaker 1: sixty nine. So for more than fifteen hundred years of
Speaker 1: its history, the Catholic Church wasn't quite as wildly controlling
Speaker 1: of people's bodies as it is now, although it's never
Speaker 1: had a good track record about that. But most US
Speaker 1: Catholics fifty six percent of them, support legalizing abortion, even
Speaker 1: though the Church kind of created the pro life movement here.
Speaker 1: The Qoran is silent about abortion, and different Islamic traditions
Speaker 1: have different views on the matter. It's silent on it
Speaker 1: the same way that the Bible is silent on it
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that most people don't try and interpret it
Speaker 1: in certain ways.
Speaker 3: Whatever can I can I subject here?
Speaker 1: Please?
Speaker 3: There's a hadith, a lot of people that I know
Speaker 3: who are Muslim, there's it's pretty like fairly accepted that
Speaker 3: abortion is allowed because I remember, I remember there was
Speaker 3: something in the Quran that is the reason why everyone
Speaker 3: thinks it's legal in Islam. But the key reason that
Speaker 3: Muslims think the procedure of like abortion is allowed is
Speaker 3: that there are verses in the Koran that indicate that
Speaker 3: a fetus is not a life until a soul is
Speaker 3: breathed into it, and that doesn't happen at conception, that
Speaker 3: happens later, and a lot of scholars believe it's between
Speaker 3: forty days and one twenty days. So that's why the
Speaker 3: majority of Muslim see abortion as allowed in Islam. From
Speaker 3: my point of view, a lot of like Islamic feminists
Speaker 3: are really proud of the fact that, like within Islam
Speaker 3: abortion is allowed and they could like take care of
Speaker 3: their own bodies. That's from what I understand.
Speaker 1: No, that makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And which is that that one hundred and twenty days
Speaker 1: type thing is like overall what most of the religions
Speaker 1: have kind of said until pretty fucking recently. Catholics were
Speaker 1: more or less the first anti abortion crusaders in the US.
Speaker 1: Eventually right wing evangelicals realized they could control people's bodies,
Speaker 1: so they showed up in the seventies. And there's no
Speaker 1: theological consensus among monotheists that abortion is a moral and
Speaker 1: it's weird as shit that people use it to try
Speaker 1: and control people's bodies. And the reason I want to
Speaker 1: talk about it is because as if we talked earlier
Speaker 1: about like the framing and understand how people like frame
Speaker 1: interprets how they I don't know how to make sense
Speaker 1: out of this. I wrote what I wrote in the script.
Speaker 1: I don't know how to riff off it. Anyway. I
Speaker 1: did get really fucking annoyed. I get really fucking annoyed
Speaker 1: that people are like, well, the Bible says, and I'm like, one,
Speaker 1: that is a list of moral ideas from a very
Speaker 1: long time ago, which is a very interesting document that
Speaker 1: people interpret all kinds of ways, and that's fine, whatever
Speaker 1: the fuck, And to no, it doesn't shut the fuck up.
Speaker 1: By nineteen eighty five, ninety percent of medical abortions were
Speaker 1: done in standalone abortion clinics rather than in hospitals in
Speaker 1: the United States. But then the anti chate movement was
Speaker 1: getting fiery. The Arson started in nineteen seventy seven. Clinic
Speaker 1: escorting started in nineteen eighty by the National Organization for Women.
Speaker 1: Now they would walk patients into clinics past picketers, and
Speaker 1: people still do this now. It is an absolutely worthwhile
Speaker 1: thing to volunteer and do if you're looking for a
Speaker 1: way to connect with community around you and get involved.
Speaker 1: There are different organizations that run it in different areas.
Speaker 1: Is I'm only aware of it in my area, so
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how to get involved. By nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty three, there have been more than twenty bombings and
Speaker 1: arsens of clinics. By nineteen eighty five, the first women's clinic,
Speaker 1: the one in LA that has come up a couple
Speaker 1: of times, was torched and the fire department was like, what,
Speaker 1: why would we think it's arson? We're not even gonna
Speaker 1: look like was probably the restaurant. Restaurants always burned down.
Speaker 1: What are you talking about? So there wasn't even investigation
Speaker 1: and you can't even find it on the list of
Speaker 1: like arsons of abortion clinics because it's not listed because
Speaker 1: it doesn't count because no one investigated it. They reopened
Speaker 1: in a new location. But more importantly, folks started coordinating.
Speaker 1: Well more importantly to our story about cool people whatever,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's not more important. Another thing that happened.
Speaker 1: People start coordinating for mutual defense and not just escorting.
Speaker 1: Escorting is absolutely great. Escorting is absolutely a thing where
Speaker 1: you do where you can't engage with the picketers right
Speaker 1: do clinic Escortian like, your whole thing is to like
Speaker 1: not let anything get more escalated and whatever, you know,
Speaker 1: And they were like, well, we need some We also
Speaker 1: need some rowdiness. They're really rowdy right now. The baddies
Speaker 1: the antis. I can't use baddies as a bad thing
Speaker 1: anymore because apparently slang has changed. This has come up
Speaker 1: a couple times on the show.
Speaker 2: It's amazing.
Speaker 1: So they formed the CDC. The other CDC, they formed
Speaker 1: the Clinic Defense Committee. Various leftist groups get their shit
Speaker 1: together and started holding defense vigils outside of the clinic
Speaker 1: in Oakland. And this is all kinds of groups. It's
Speaker 1: anti imperialist groups and unions and feminist groups, it's communists
Speaker 1: and anarchists. And suddenly the anti has got real quiet
Speaker 1: because there was a whole lot of very angry and
Speaker 1: non pacifist people out defending the place. And not shockingly,
Speaker 1: one of the co founders of the CDC was a
Speaker 1: former black panther how a radical black lesbian feminist. And
Speaker 1: so they're like, oh, we don't want to go to
Speaker 1: that clinic. They're scary there. Since this was a leftist group,
Speaker 1: it had a ton of names over the years, the
Speaker 1: CDC became bac AO R, and it became baco r R,
Speaker 1: the Bay Area CORD and whatever. I didn't write down
Speaker 1: what they stand for because they all have a million
Speaker 1: fucking names and they're all the same name whatever.
Speaker 2: Similar.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but they're backhoor now. I'm gonna call them
Speaker 1: backwar and backhor was cool as fuck. There are last
Speaker 1: cool people we're gonna talk about this week. Sometimes they
Speaker 1: did the militant thing. They would stand around looking and
Speaker 1: being tough. Operation Rescue was the name of the main
Speaker 1: ANTIS that they would call the anti abortion protesters that antis,
Speaker 1: and Operation Rescue was like this place. They would organize
Speaker 1: what they called hits, which is where they would get
Speaker 1: hundreds or thousands of people to descend on a random
Speaker 1: clinic and like it down and like block it and
Speaker 1: do all this like and assault people. And it was,
Speaker 1: you know, bad, and so they infiltrated back or infiltrated
Speaker 1: Operation Rescue and other anti groups. Sometimes they did street theater.
Speaker 1: They hold signs that said ladies against women and every
Speaker 1: sperm is sacred, and would go and stand with the antis.
Speaker 1: They were defending their own legal access to healthcare. But
Speaker 1: soon enough they learned and took as one of their
Speaker 1: core principles you do not depend on the police. That
Speaker 1: is like a verbatim one of their principles. Because they
Speaker 1: would get arrested themselves for blockading, for like preventing blockades
Speaker 1: of private property they owned and legally operated. They had
Speaker 1: a rapid response phone tree to get people out in
Speaker 1: minutes to defend places where antis would hit on moss.
Speaker 1: Sometimes they met at this place called the Long Haul,
Speaker 1: which is an anarchist infoshop that's still running in the
Speaker 1: Bay and therefore living up to its name The Long Haul,
Speaker 1: so fuck yeah, good on you. Eighty eight Bakwar was
Speaker 1: meeting there an anarchist artist couple that was in Bakor
Speaker 1: who are still alive today, which also makes me really happy.
Speaker 1: They put up posters all over the city. They designed
Speaker 1: these bandanas for everyone in back or to where to
Speaker 1: identify each other, which was like the feminist symbol instead
Speaker 1: of a triangle made out of triangles and would say
Speaker 1: like pro choice and backwar on it and stuff. You know.
Speaker 1: They make these sick bandanas that everyone wore. Folks made
Speaker 1: VHS tapes teaching tactics and started spreading them around the city.
Speaker 1: To new activists. So people did amazing shit for the end.
Speaker 1: I mean, people do amazing shit with the internet, and
Speaker 1: the internet makes a lot of this way easier. But
Speaker 1: they would have like spotters would do vigils at abortion
Speaker 1: clinics near a payphone and if they saw someone, they'd
Speaker 1: call the first person in the phone tree, who then
Speaker 1: calls two people from the phone tree, who calls two
Speaker 1: people from the phone tree.
Speaker 2: Phone trees. Man, that shit. The little parents, the school parents,
Speaker 2: who yeah, use that. That's a weapon for real.
Speaker 1: Okay, So the only time I've ever used one was
Speaker 1: a squad defense in the Netherlands where the cop came
Speaker 1: and within like fifteen minutes there was like one hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty squads outside while I was like inside sweeping,
Speaker 1: and it was very nice.
Speaker 2: That's amazing, Yes, pohe and trees are powerful. Yeah, the
Speaker 2: days the days of old.
Speaker 1: I know, NA use a signal group, which is better
Speaker 1: and faster, don't get me wrong. Yeah, yeah, but it
Speaker 1: fucking worked. Slowly, they got the numbers to start holding
Speaker 1: back the hundreds of antis would swarm clinics, They got
Speaker 1: a thous Eventually they're getting a thousand people showing up
Speaker 1: every time the Antis tried to show up at a
Speaker 1: clinic and one of their slogans was we don't write
Speaker 1: letters were backhor which meant like, we're not writing letters
Speaker 1: of the fucking senators here. Yeah, right, we're showing the
Speaker 1: fuck up.
Speaker 2: Again. Old school tactics.
Speaker 1: Yeah. They developed clinic defense boards, which when I first
Speaker 1: saw the drawing of them, I thought they were just shields,
Speaker 1: but they're not. They're like two foot by four foot
Speaker 1: pieces of plywood with like handles on the top and
Speaker 1: the bottom and so therefore putting at your feet and
Speaker 1: like stepping on and then holding on to and when
Speaker 1: you get a row of people, you can build a barricade.
Speaker 1: But it's not like a barricade that no one can
Speaker 1: reach over. It's a barricade that no one can like
Speaker 1: walk over, you know.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, And so you can use it to.
Speaker 1: Well protect a corridor for patients to get in and
Speaker 1: out these clinics. And so they show up and they
Speaker 1: have these huge signs that be like the clinic is open,
Speaker 1: you know, because people would show up and obviously they'd
Speaker 1: be like, oh, there's a thousand people here hate me,
Speaker 1: and it is awful that, you know, people had to
Speaker 1: face that down, but there was a thousand people there
Speaker 1: to protect their right to access to right, and they
Speaker 1: went on the offensive too. They would pick at the
Speaker 1: churches that harbor Operation Rescue. They learned street theater from
Speaker 1: Act Up, the coolest Fuck AIDS Awareness Direct Action group.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to talk about one of these days.
Speaker 1: They infiltrated Operation Rescue meetings for information and occasionally they
Speaker 1: disrupt them. The last story I'm going to leave with
Speaker 1: is that there's a story of this anarchist lesbian from
Speaker 1: New York. I had to hide her mohawk under her hoodie,
Speaker 1: I think, and her and two other women put on
Speaker 1: very conservative, like buttoned down floor length skirts so she,
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, I'd love a floor length skirt.
Speaker 1: And then they would sneak into the meeting right and
Speaker 1: then dropt stink spray chemicals into the air vents, which
Speaker 1: is like really noxious, and it cleared the space and
Speaker 1: moments unfortunately, the three women ran out and they got
Speaker 1: kind of ideed, and two of them got caught, and like,
Speaker 1: the one woman spent five days in jail and the
Speaker 1: third woman got away. The third woman was like fuck this,
Speaker 1: I'm out of here, and got away successfully, right, and yeah,
Speaker 1: they were just fucking cool. And so like every time
Speaker 1: shit that's bad happens, we can respond and we can
Speaker 1: mitigate the worst of the harms and we can and
Speaker 1: we learned so well when we like not just work
Speaker 1: intersectionally but work in coalitions, you know, like work in
Speaker 1: ways that are like, oh, well, of course, Like when
Speaker 1: black feminists start doing this work, it's going to look
Speaker 1: different and it's going to work. We can learn so
Speaker 1: much from that group. And when you know, queer folks
Speaker 1: are doing this, it's going to be a little bit different,
Speaker 1: like and it's like they're learning from Act Up and
Speaker 1: they're doing it makes me happy when skies are full
Speaker 1: of evangelicals.
Speaker 2: Well, as you said, it needs to be above ground
Speaker 2: and below a little bit of legal with the criminal
Speaker 2: and what we learn is their tactics and there are
Speaker 2: methods to do both and it's okay, yeah, and sometimes
Speaker 2: it's necessary. Yeah, as Margaret invented, Yeah, the.
Speaker 1: Inventor of crime. Uh every crime. No wait, no, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of bad ones. Yeah, I know, because like
Speaker 1: usual yeah, like yeah, no, no, it turns out crime
Speaker 1: is a really bad way of determining something's moralness. It
Speaker 1: turns out some stuff is illegal because it's bad, and
Speaker 1: some stuff is illegal because society.
Speaker 2: Sucks, right, right, So we're talking about the ones that
Speaker 2: makes you know, society.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's what. Yeah, break, that's what he's break
Speaker 1: them all talking about, don't shoot your girlfriend, piece of ship.
Speaker 1: Every time there's a man in a story.
Speaker 2: Literally murders adult, it never ends well.
Speaker 1: Like Mike.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like Mike from the original uh Jane Collective And yeah,
Speaker 2: we like and we like him, but we don't Nick Mike.
Speaker 2: But we don't like him because we know he was shady.
Speaker 1: Yeah who knows otherwise, But that one thing he did
Speaker 1: was good.
Speaker 2: On that documentary. He was actually on it. Oh really,
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you need to go back. I told I
Speaker 2: see you and Sophie that email, Like, y'all you watch
Speaker 2: this something Nick Mike is.
Speaker 1: On here, I do because everyone should go back. And
Speaker 1: there's a callback to our episode we did about Jane Collective.
Speaker 1: Those as very He was described as handsome by one
Speaker 1: Jane participant, and I have forever on referred to him
Speaker 1: as the very handsome man who rides around on a
Speaker 1: scooter and performs abortions and then taught women how to
Speaker 1: do it and then dipped, which is like, if you're in.
Speaker 2: A thought, maybe he owed money to the mob or something.
Speaker 1: Away for him. That's my theory that might.
Speaker 2: Have been on It may have been on the show
Speaker 2: where they say he owed money and that's why he
Speaker 2: doesna appeared.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense, but you don't know.
Speaker 2: Got to go.
Speaker 1: You need to go watch it. There's so much written
Speaker 1: about Jane, which is great. I'm like, yeah, I'm not
Speaker 1: trying to.
Speaker 2: Well, unfortunately, it's more relevant today than and they're still alive,
Speaker 2: so the chunk of the collective is still.
Speaker 1: Alive, which rules.
Speaker 2: So unfortunately they have to see this again. Though.
Speaker 1: Here's to everyone who's currently doing clinic escorting, making yes
Speaker 1: information about self medicated abortions or self administered medicated abortions available.
Speaker 1: Here's to everyone doing all the hard work. Here's to
Speaker 1: all the crime doctors. Here's all the doctors who did
Speaker 1: it while it was legal but still not safe. And
Speaker 1: here's to you, Samantha McVeigh. What did you do that
Speaker 1: people can hear about?
Speaker 2: Well? I am on a podcast called Stuff Mom Never
Speaker 2: Told You, where we talk about specific organizations that you
Speaker 2: can support in this times, such as National network of
Speaker 2: abortion funds Abortion Funds dot org, which will often lead
Speaker 2: you to necessary information if you so need. Celebrating different
Speaker 2: organizations like Los Libres, who was run by Veronica cru
Speaker 2: Sanchez and they are a big organization in Mexico that
Speaker 2: are providing medication and help to the US as they
Speaker 2: know we are in the shit show. Yeah, and she
Speaker 2: has been celebrated because she continues and has advertised that
Speaker 2: she will help the US Texas just in case y'all
Speaker 2: need to know Leslie Brace once again. Yes, you can
Speaker 2: find me on my show. You can find our book.
Speaker 2: We talk about the Jaine Collective as well as well
Speaker 2: as as the Honea Shonees which I mentioned previously, which
Speaker 2: is a very interesting, uh. First Nations people who helped
Speaker 2: us become where it was for the women, for many
Speaker 2: of us women. And yeah, you can find me on
Speaker 2: Instagram McVeigh dot Sam if you like pictures of sad dogs.
Speaker 2: Because I just gave her a bath, that's one picture.
Speaker 2: She hates bath. As well as we have stuff I've
Speaker 2: never told you Instagram and TikTok and kind of the
Speaker 2: dying Twitter that we barely use.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks Sam. Mamtha was close close those close.
Speaker 1: The Instagram name o Sam.
Speaker 2: Yeah like Bay Sam. It's true.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I got it right. Uh no, that was
Speaker 3: I always learned so much on the show, even ass
Speaker 3: like a listening so wow, not everyone sucks. Not everyone sucks.
Speaker 2: Know this makes me happy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for being on the show. Thanks Margaret for
Speaker 3: being Margaret.
Speaker 2: Thanks, yes, yeah giving me all this good information. You
Speaker 2: were as always the right guest for this, and I'm
Speaker 2: very happy hmm, always happy to be here.
Speaker 3: I told you it was the Samantha episode.
Speaker 1: And if you want to hear Sharen talk about stuff
Speaker 1: sin Scharen won't do our own plugs, I'll do it.
Speaker 3: I'm one of the rotating hosts of it could happen here.
Speaker 3: I'm on Twitter at shiro Hero six sixty six and
Speaker 3: then Instagram it's just shio hero. But uh yeah, follow
Speaker 3: this show too. What's the what's the show's handles? Does
Speaker 3: this show have handles?
Speaker 1: Handles?
Speaker 3: I should know that.
Speaker 1: No, we just use cool zone social media. Great, go
Speaker 1: follow cool zone Media and cooler Zone. Go subscribe to
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Speaker 1: all right, that's it. Next week More Stuff, Bye cool
Speaker 1: People Who did Cool Stuff is a production of cool
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