1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: So excuse me, I have the COVID. Pardon me, that's right, 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: Dr Cardy. Tim Sanderford is the vice president for Little 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: Litigation of the Goldwater Institute. He joins us, Now, Tim, 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: how are you, sir? I'm great. I would ask how 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: you are, but now I know have you actually I'm 6 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: vastly improved. Have you had COVID? Tim? Yes, in fact, 7 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: I'm still just I'm mostly recovered. But my wife and 8 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: I caught it about three weeks ago. We only had 9 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: about one day, that really bad day, each or exhausted 10 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: a little bit of a fever. But losing our sense 11 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: of taste was very weird, and it was actually kind 12 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: of disappointing because both of us thought that if that 13 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: ever happened, that we would eat less, and we found 14 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: that we actually ate more because we weren't satiated, and 15 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 1: we kept hoping that our our taste would come back, 16 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: and so we ended up eating more over the course 17 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: of the past three weeks than we haven't a long time. See, 18 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: I lost my taste and I started listening to nickelback 19 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: and watching according to Jim oh boy, uh so, yeah, 20 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: it's funny. I've had I had three solid days of fever. 21 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: I think I'm fever free today, but we'll have to see. 22 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: I easily know more people with COVID in the last 23 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: two weeks than I have in the entire two years. 24 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: Is everywhere and where it's going to be. You expect 25 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 1: the virus to get less dangerous as simultaneously with becoming 26 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: more contagious, because that means as it gets less dangerous, 27 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: it's easier for that virus to spread throughout the population. 28 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: So it kind of is a trade off. More people 29 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,839 Speaker 1: are gonna get it, but they're going to suffer less, right, Yeah, 30 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: which which is fine. Let's keep moving in that direction 31 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: until it becomes just another cold as some of predictive 32 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: author Right, So let's talk about work for you at 33 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: the Goldwater Institute. You're involved in a really interesting case 34 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,919 Speaker 1: involving an Arizona mother. Tell us about it. This are 35 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: so my clients. A woman named Sarah. She lives in Tucson. 36 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: She's heading on Thanksgiving. She's setting to a grocery store 37 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: to pick up the turkey. And she's got her seven 38 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: year old son in the car along with his five 39 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: year old friend. And they say, and the store said, 40 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: please don't come in unless you're shopping, and the kids said, well, 41 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: let us play in in our neighborhood park in here 42 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: and we'll just play while you go shot. So mom says, okay, 43 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: She lets them, drops them off, She looks, she sees 44 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: in the park that some friends of hers are in 45 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: the park, and so she knows the kids can go 46 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: to them if there's any kind of a problem or anything. 47 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: Goes in the store for half an hour. Next thing 48 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: she knows, the police are on the phone. The police 49 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: have stopped and are asking her kids why they're they're 50 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: playing in the park, and she gets charged with child 51 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: neglect under state law for letting her children play in 52 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: the park for half an hour. And now the county 53 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: prosecutor saw how ridiculous this was and dropped those charges. 54 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: That the state Department of Child Safety is now trying 55 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: to put her name on a list of child abusers 56 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: that would prohibit her from working with kids or even 57 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: volunteering in her community to help kids out. Great Scott. So, 58 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: I mean, not only has there been no due process here, 59 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: it would seem to be somebody asking the question is 60 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: the answer didn't have anything to do with COVID? Was 61 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: there was that there not allowed to be in the 62 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: park or is that not part of the story. No, 63 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: it was not that. It was that the cops. The 64 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: cops actually told her that every child under eight team 65 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: must be supervised at all times in public by an adult, 66 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 1: which is not true. Yeah, that's heard that it's absurd 67 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: and that's not the law. But Arizona law defines neglect 68 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: as the unwillingness to supervise a child if that exposes 69 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: a child to unreasonable risk. Well, Sarah was not unwilling 70 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: to supervise her children. She let her kids play in 71 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: the park for half an hour because it was safe 72 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: to do so. And the state is putting her on 73 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: this black list. And you mentioned due process. This is 74 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: the really important part of this case. Under state law, 75 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: your name can be put on this blacklist for twenty 76 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: five years based on probable cause. That's a lower standard 77 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: than obviously it's lower than the criminal law standard, which 78 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: is beyond a reasonable doubt. Right, But even in a 79 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: civil lawsuit that the government or the plaintiff has to 80 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: prove somebody did something by preponderance of the evidence. But 81 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: this is a lower standard even than that. Probable cause 82 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: is basically suspicion. The government can put your name on 83 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: this blacklist for twenty five years based on suspicion that 84 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: you might have done something wrong. That's insane. That's a 85 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: violation of due process. And that's one of the reasons 86 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: we say this is a violation of the Constitution. Wow, 87 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: you know it's funny. I was through one of your 88 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: tweets and I was reading a Twitter feed or Twitter 89 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 1: thread about what lawyers wish there. Uh, the clients understood 90 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: about litigation that layman don't understand about when you actually 91 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: try to litigate a case, um and and and one 92 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: of them, one of them was, it's not frivolous. You 93 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: think it's frivolous because your point of view. The other 94 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: side has a point of view. So I'm going to 95 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: be careful in saying this, but it strikes me that 96 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: the other side has no argument. How can you put 97 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: this woman on a quarter century would be child abuser 98 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 1: list because their kids were playing in a park? Well, 99 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: I think part of it is Arizona. About five years 100 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: ago or so, there was a big controversy because the 101 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: Department of Child Safety was accused of letting not doing 102 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: its job and kids are being harmed and stuff, And 103 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: I think there's been this real push by the bureaucracy 104 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: to try and change their ways and be more aggressive. 105 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: But this shows why we need constitutional protections so that 106 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: aggressive bureaucrats doing what they think is the right thing 107 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: don't trample on our right. I think a lot of 108 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: people think that when government does bad things, it's because 109 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: the people in charge are are just bad people are 110 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: trying to do bad things. But far more often your 111 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: rights get violated when bureaucrats do what they think is 112 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: the right thing, but there are no checks and balances 113 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: against them. And the Department Child Safety operates really without 114 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: checks and balances because it combines the judicial, legislative, and 115 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: executive powers. They write the rules, investigate alleged infraction, and 116 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: they put you through this administrative hearing that's sort of 117 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: supposed to be like a trial, except that the rules 118 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 1: of evidence and the rules of procedure don't apply. And 119 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 1: even if you're found not guilty at that hearing, the 120 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: department can still declare you guilty anyway, So it's a 121 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: it's a charade of due process. But I think it's 122 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: because you know, there's this an attempt to protect kids. 123 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 1: In this case, it's protect kids from playing safely in 124 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: a safe part for half an hour was mom's permission, 125 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: and adults there to keep an eye on them. Yeah, 126 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: all these child protective service organizations in their various forms 127 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: have such a hard job. And um, I think a 128 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 1: lot of the problem comes from when they get it wrong, 129 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: which you're going to get it wrong a lot. It 130 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: would be so, oh, just kill you when you got 131 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: it wrong, that's right. And there's a technical term for that. 132 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: It's called a type two error. A type one error 133 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: is when you fail to do something when you should. 134 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: A type two error is when you you do something 135 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: that you shouldn't do. The type two errors is where 136 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 1: you try to avoid that, right, And so it's safer 137 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: under this kind of mistake. It's it's safer not to 138 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: do anything because if you do something, you run the 139 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: risk of being accused of doing something wrong. If you 140 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: don't do anything, well, the blame gets put on somebody else. 141 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: You didn't do anything. It's just that the rules are 142 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: there and that sort of thing. And so that's why 143 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: bureaucracies are so slow, because they're afraid of doing anything 144 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: at all less they be accused of doing something wrong. 145 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: Is that the problem we have in in policing right now. 146 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously it's not the whole thing, but is 147 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: that the whole pullback of the police and they're afraid 148 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: to arrest anybody phenomenon type situation. I think that's right, 149 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: and I think it's become very prominent in recent years 150 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: because that's what like the FDA does when they refuse 151 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: to approve a life saving treatment. They they're afraid of 152 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: approving it because if one person like suffers an adverse reaction, 153 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: they get accused. The Congress throws a fit, that bureaucracy 154 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: gets called in front of a hearing. If they don't 155 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: improve the drug, well, you know, nothing really happens. It 156 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: doesn't end up in the headlines. So there's this bias 157 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: in favor of not doing anything. And that's the kind 158 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: of problem that happens in any bureaucracy anywhere. Yes, so 159 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: your case is obviously important legally and you're a lawyer, 160 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: but culturally it's pretty huge too. If the government weren't 161 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: to win this case, and that's a headline, we don't 162 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: need to reinforce this idea nationwide with a headline that shows, yeah, 163 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: you actually can't let your kids play at the park. 164 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: It's too dangerous and against the law. I don't want 165 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: to encourage that totally. And there hasn't been There hasn't 166 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: been a stranger kidnapping in this neighborhood in like a 167 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: decade and so, and everybody is so panicked about it 168 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: even though this is safe. The result is what they 169 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: call helicopter parenting, right that you have to constantly hover 170 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: over your kids all the time. And Sarah is opposed 171 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: to helicopter parenting. She thinks kids need to have a 172 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: degree of independence as they grow up so that they 173 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: can grow up to be adults who didn't who can 174 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: take care of themselves. That doesn't mean you neglect them, obviously, 175 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: but it means that you allow them to play by 176 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: themselves in places, in situations where it's safe to do so, 177 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: and you're not constantly over them. And what the state 178 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: is doing in this situation is it saying that runs 179 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: the risk of putting your name on a do not 180 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: higher list for twenty five years without due process of law. 181 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: That's that's too much. That's not what the constitution allows. 182 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: We've got thirty seconds left him. What's the next step? 183 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: Are we filed our appeal to the Superior Court just 184 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:20,959 Speaker 1: the other day. So there's gonna be a round of 185 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:22,839 Speaker 1: briefings and then there's an oral argument, and if we 186 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: lose that, we'll appeal it again and we'll go to 187 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court if we have to. Tim sander Ford, 188 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 1: vice President the Litigation Goldwater Institute. Tim, as we often 189 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: sign up, keep fighting a good fight. Good to talk 190 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: to you. Thanks. Guys who throughout the crap of kids 191 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 1: aren't allowed to be unattended up to eighteen him. How 192 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: could you function as a society like that? So you 193 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: can't let a fourteen year old ride their bike around 194 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: the neighborhood unless you're watching him. I mean, that's insane. 195 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: We've lost our minds, We really have